Needs Help (Categorization): Musicians

A few of the indices within the Musicians page seems to have overlapping subject matter:

• Alternative Indie (to Alternative Rock)
• Electronic/Industrial (to Electronic Music)
• Hip-Hop / Rap (to Hip-Hop)
• Metal to (Heavy Metal)
• Rock (it's better served as an index of subgenres much like Alternative Rock, Electronic Music and Hip-Hop above; the folders it has (Progressive Rock, Punk Rock, New Wave/Post-Punk) already have better, more fleshed out pages)

All of them only have one sentence before making a list of artists, when said artists are better served in the various subgenres. I do believe that Alternative Indie should be given a stiff rewrite, and perhaps a rename to narrow the scope (eg Indie Rock) while referring the appropriate acts to the proper subgenres. I did state that Rock is better served as an index of Rock subgenres, and for the remaining three I listed I'm thinking they should be merged. Certainly open to suggestions.

EDIT: Seeing the mod post, I'd have to explain that if the TRS refers to multiple targets for similar reasons that I was instructed to leave the title blank. Also, for lack of a better classification (more than just mergers are requested) I have it as Needs Help. Any feedback will be appreciated, and I'm willing to help with these efforts.

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Feb 5th 2021 at 3:23:32 AM

I think I agree with OP's suggestions. In general, having the page that describes the genre also index the artists is the way to go, and this is how the smaller subgenres generally do it.

In the case of Alternative Indie, there is a need for a general Alternative Rock index to catch artists that don't fit into subgenres. Are you proposing to make Alternative Rock also index artists? I could see making Indie Rock index, though there might be overlap with Indie Pop.

I suppose indexing artists in those kinds of pages would work out, at least for the time being. There are artists where I'm not sure where to properly class them (eg Electronic Music could include 100 gecs and IDM artist Flying Lotus, since the genre page isn't up yet).

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Feb 3rd 2021 at 11:54:10 AM

Bumping.

There any other suggestions in regards to the genre pages?

I agree that a general Electronic Music index would be good, if it means anything.

I generally agree with separate genre pages, although I wouldn't be able to help with the rearranging as I don't know a whole lot about music.

Edited by Synchronicity on Feb 5th 2021 at 10:16:50 AM

Indexing subgenres on the Rock index sounds fine, since there are so many of them.

Also, I'm confused by the sub-bullets of The Beatles. I get that the musicians themselves are indexed as second-level bullet points under the band that made them famous, but solo albums that have their own page are on the same level of bullet point as the musician who recorded them (such as the pages for both Paul McCartney and his Ram album both being on second-level bullet points under the first-level bullet point for the page for The Beatles).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 5th 2021 at 11:00:05 AM

I know quite a bit about music, so I might be of help with subgenres.

@GastonRabbit - Now that you mention it, it is strange, especially since the band's albums aren't listed there.

In any case, having folders for genres that don't yet have a page within Alternative Rock, Rock, Hip-Hop and Electronic Music does sound like a great idea.

EDIT: And I realized I've just forgotten to include Metal for overlap with Heavy Metal. Editing the OP to reflect this.

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Feb 5th 2021 at 9:12:43 AM

Mods, can you give this a more descriptive title? "Needs Help" is incredibly vague. Perhaps call it "Need Help Resolving Music Genre categorization for Musicians" or something more succinct but specific.

Done, but I kept it concise.

Thanks!

EDIT: Just sorted Electronic/Industrial artists in the event of a merger.

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Mar 4th 2021 at 3:17:50 AM

Hip-Hop / Rap artists in the event of a similar merger.

For Rock, I believe opening a sandbox would work to give an extended description, index the subgenres and also go through the existing artist/album pages to see what can be indexed where current pages won't do it justice.

EDIT: And it is up. I'll work more on it in my own free time (making descriptions, sorting which acts would otherwise not be in a subgenre), and contributions are welcome.

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Feb 22nd 2021 at 7:33:49 AM

Bumping this thread. Already sorted the acts in Metal to the best-fitting pages (as of February 28), so the page is ready to be merged into Heavy Metal (no band needs to be indexed there because Traditional Heavy Metal took care of the general niche).

Meanwhile, last but not least I shall start on Alternative Indie. See the post below

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Mar 8th 2021 at 9:42:10 AM

I'd love to help but I don't know enough about music. I'll offer a free bump though.

I have two ideas for how to sort The Beatles and the former members:

1. Keep the former members as sub-bullets under their original band's bullet points, but move the solo albums to third-level bullets:

2. Separate the former Beatles from the bullet point for The Beatles with a "see also" note next to the bullet point for the Beatles (in the final product, these would be spread out between other bands and solo artists):

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 19th 2021 at 9:31:50 AM

In such cases, I do prefer 2.

Anyways, for the sandbox I have, what kind of description should there be. Should there be a simple description like before, only letting the subgenres explain, or should there be more details?

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Feb 20th 2021 at 8:46:21 AM

I think there should be a description describing the genre: what it is, its history and social role. I'll have a crack at adding one in the sandbox.

Edit: Actually, I'm wondering if Rock and Rock & Roll should be merged. The first half of Rock & Roll describes the general, broad genre, but the examples section lists early rock artists who generally also fit into Rockabilly. Perhaps Rock & Roll's description should go on rock (along with the subgenre list in the sandbox), the examples moved to Rockabilly, and Rock & Roll made a redirect to rock?

Edited by naturalironist on Feb 27th 2021 at 6:12:08 AM

I think we can move part of Rock & Roll's description to the new Rock page, but I'd keep the genre page on the account that it's a distinct genre. Rockabilly does have a higher country influence while Rock & Roll has influence from Blues/R&B. And there were acts in which both fit (eg Elvis Presley).

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Feb 28th 2021 at 9:49:30 AM

Ok, I wrote up a draft description on Sandbox.Rock that's based on but not the same as the one on Rock & Roll.

It also occurs to me that we have a large number of tropes related to rock music that are not specifically indexed here. Should they go on Rock or get moved to their own index? I've listed them in the sandbox for now.

Edited by naturalironist on Feb 28th 2021 at 2:59:01 PM

The draft is looking good.

Anyways, just finished sorting musicians (just got to put the acts in Alternative Indie in their proper places, and also there are some where The Other Wiki hasn't been particularly helpful and I plan to get back to), so Electronic/Industrial, Hip-Hop / Rap, Metal and Alternative Indie should be ready for a merger with Electronic Music, Hip-Hop, Heavy Metal and Alternative Rock respectively.

Also, is there enough entries under the Indie Rock section to warrant its own page as opposed to a redirect to Indie Pop? There are acts that are both, and there are some listed under Indie Pop when The Other Wiki just specified Indie Rock.

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Mar 4th 2021 at 3:44:55 AM

There's so much overlap between Indie Rock and Indie Pop that it might be difficult to split.

I actually think Indie Rock and Alternative Rock should both be Genre + Index pages but kept separate. There's some overlap, but I think they're different enough to keep separate. While they're both pretty broad and are to some extent defined by being "outside the mainstream", they have stylistic and historical differences. Alternative has its origins as a reaction to Hair Metal, includes mostly bands that are Grunge and Post-Hardcore-adjacent, and tends to be somewhat heavy. I think of it mainly as an 80'-2000's phenomenon. Indie includes a wider range of instruments than alternative (synths and trumpets are common) and has its origins more in New Wave, Garage Rock, and Post-Punk. I think of it as a late 90s-2020's phenomenon.

And despite being defined as in opposition to the mainstream, that wasn't always true. In the late 90's-early 2000's, Post-Grunge was all over mainstream radio, while Indie Rock being made at the same time was very underground, and there wasn't a lot of overlap between the fanbases.

Still trying to find where to put the Industrial acts from my sorting what's found in Alternative Indie. Also trying to see how to approach Christian Rock since it's not an index.

So a couple questions: Can the merger go ahead? And can there be some sort of YKTTW for Indie Rock?

Edited by GrafVonTirol on Mar 15th 2021 at 11:53:35 AM

I would put Bastille, The Decemberists, Death Cab for Cutie, and The White Stripes on Indie Rock rather than alternative.

Edited by naturalironist on Mar 8th 2021 at 12:45:03 PM