- For guesses related to Battle of Gods, go here
- For guesses related to Resurrection ‘F’, go here
- For guesses related to Dragon Ball Super, go here
- Partially Confirmed Word of God says Goku's mom was name was Gine.
While training in 100x gravity, he kept putting himself in near-death, but on Namek he was only as strong as Ginyu, who was more than 4 times weaker than first form Frieza. Goku was so worried about fighting Frieza before he healed, and then conveniently became as strong as initial final form Frieza.
During their fight, Perfect Cell was no match for a Super Saiyan 2 Gohan; after blowing himself up in a desperate attempt to defeat him, his power increased so drastically that he can stalemate with a Super Saiyan 2-powered Kamehameha.
By these speculations, a saiyan's ability to get stronger from recovering a near-death state is because, just in case they encounter a similar or same threat, they would have enough power to deal with that problem.
- IF what you were saying were true. Then it would mean Zenkai protects a specefic method of being injured similar to how an antibiotic protects against a certain illness. Zenkai improves the saiyans overall health.
- If this is true it would possibly be an example of Fridge Brilliance. After the Cell saga Goku trained in otherworld (and if anime filler is considered) fought with opponents like Pikkon etc. while Vegeta trained on his own. Goku was able to reach higher levels of power because he had an opponent and Vegeta didn't. Goku wanted Buu to come back to life so he could have a challenge AND continue to grow.
- Jossed: If the Zenkai really was a defense mechanism, then when Gohan was nearly killed by Frieza in his second form, then his power should have shot up to over a million. And we never see Vegeta getting hurt by Frieza in his third form; in fact, he completely ignores him in favor of Piccolo and Gohan.
- Jossed, it's not in Cell's genetic nature (ex. Vegeta and Frieza's Pride) to be so understanding, if anything he'd be more mad.
- Jossed by simple logic: If Frieza was so concerned about Ginyu taking over his body, he would have killed him before he became a threat, plain and simple.
- Jossed. Raditz was confirmed to be the about the same age as Vegeta in both official guides and in DB Minus. Plus, Bardock wasn't elderly when Planet Vegeta was destroyed, so Raditz couldn't have been fully grown at the time. Plus, Vegeta's height is inconsistently draw in the series (to the point were he's often depicted as only slightly shorter than Goku, especially in Super).
- Jossed. Dragonball Zero confirmed that Goku and Raditz share the same mother and father, and Bardock and Raditz acknowledge each other as father and son in the video games.
- Or alternatively, the enormous ki being put out by Cell and Gohan was felt throughout the universe, and that's what attracted Babidi to Earth, so it has yet to happen in Future Trunks's timeline, which means he's quite literally screwed as he has yet to face Dabura and Babidi, much less Buu.
- Jossed, it does happen in the video game Dragon Ball Z: Shin Budokai - Another Road.
- Jossed, as Dragon Ball Super reveals that Trunks stopped Majin Buu from awakening in his timeline, which happens after he kills the androids.
- Brutally jossed, especially with regards to pre-god fusions being stronger than Whis.
- This honestly make so much more sense. Kami was a rather puny god, and Demon King Piccolo's personality was much more... existing. Kami's two-dimensional, but the first Piccolo has goals and ambitions and hopes and plans and like actual ideas. That said, Demon King Piccolo was an idiot. Youth? That's it? You have the Dragon Balls and your wish is youth? I get the plan: be young so you're strong enough to take over the Earth. Too bad that's a stupid plan. Instead, wish that you had gotten Kami's job rather than Kami. As in, retroactively. Congratulations, you've won. Any more wishes you need? Well, you've got them. Foes? You won via retcon. Nobody even knows. No, I posit an alternative. They didn't just blow up the world they were used on because he was a dick. They do that because he's a stupid dick. The Black Star Dragon Balls aren't more powerful. No, they're shitty prototypes that the Nameless Namek lied about because he was embarrassed. We've seen two normal sets of Dragon Balls, and it's quite obvious which are the superior ones: The Namekian Dragon Balls, especially post-Guru. They already had the extra wishes and the ability to bring back someone who has been brought back, and the post-Guru set also can do mass revivals. It's quite obvious that Earth's Dragon Balls are inferior. Even Dende was able to make Earth's Dragon Balls better. Dende was able to add more wishes to them with little effort. Dende. Kami is centuries old. Dende is only like Gohan's age. Also, they're smaller and Shenron is smaller. Whether it's the size of the balls of the skill of the Namekian, Earth's Dragon Balls are crap in comparison to Namek's. The Black Star Dragon Balls are probably an earlier attempt at crafting them, and they turned out so badly that they messed up coordinates and also blow up the planet. Chances are, the Nameless Namekian kept them around for Plan B: Fuck This Planet. Because he was also a raging asshole. After splitting, he was still incompetent, but he was also far weaker and not a dick. The main set are probably the best Kami can even do. That is, the best Kami can do is worse than Dende.
- In Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods,, Beerus outright states that he is only the God of Destruction that governs one of twelve Universes. Now, under the assumption that Toriyama endorses the recent slew of crossovers with the rest of the SHOUNEN JUMP lineup of Mangas and franchises (of which a official Video Game on PS3 is coming out next month]), we can safely assume that some of the following universes (each with their own ludicrously-powerful, world-shattering warriors) are as follows:The One Piece UniverseThe JoJo's Bizarre Adventure UniverseThe YuYu Hakusho UniverseThe Naruto UniverseThe Bleach UniverseThe Negima! UniverseThe Puella Magi Madoka Magica Universe
- Any more suggestions?
- Toriko, Rosario + Vampire, Hellsing, Fairy Tail, and Nura: Rise of the Yokai Clan
- Lyrical Nanoha, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Elfen Lied, and the two alternate timelines made by Trunks' time travelling exploits.
- All Dragon Ball timelines are part of a singular universe, and even if they where not they would still be governed by Beerus.
- Outlaw Star, Battle Angel Alita, Fist of the North Star, Hikaru no Go. (Imagins Goku and Vegeta playing Go as super saiyans.)
- I think Shaman King and Beelzebub are more likely candidates. Shaman King has seven different gods, and Beelzebub features some gigantic power ups and the lord of the underworld with its own alternate dimension.
- I kind of want to suggest Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt on account of an admittedly semi-insane theory I have regarding Bulma's parents.
- I suggest GaoGaiGar, with Genesic GaoGaiGar as its god of destruction.
- Any more suggestions?
- Bleach: Sosuke Aizen, because this was basically his goal anyway.
- Naruto: Madara Uchiha, because he can force incredibly powerful demons to do his bidding just by looking at them.
- Wait, did I say Madara? I meant Kaguya.
- Puella Magi Madoka Magica: Kaname Madoka; She fits this job like a warm pair of slippers. Not only did she single-handedly destroy a dark and sad universe without hope, but recreated it into a Kinder and Gentler Place; much like Beerus' purpose in the Seventh Universe.
- And as of the Rebellion Movie, Akemi Homura, who plays this role straighter and darker than Madoka.
- One Piece: The Sea Devil, the entity whose all his/her/its super-powers are reincarnated in the Devil Fruits. That, or the local version of Davy Jones.
- Shaman King I'm going to have to say Hao as he is intent on destroying humans. And for the god of creation it would have to be one of the first gods which have yet to be named.
- Beelzebub God of destruction is definitely Lord En.
- Hellsing - do we even need to say it? Yes? Oh fine, Alucard.
- Negima: It's kind of a tossup between Jack Rakan and Evangeline.
- If we're getting into the suggestions as well, Fairy Tail would probably be Acnologia, while Neon Genesis Evangelion would be Shinji after the Zeruel fight, especially if we're going off the Rebuild of Evangelion path.
- He hardly seems that committed after he had some time to cool off about the pudding, and at the end he just destroyed a rock.
Despite a lot of the posts on here, there is actually no proof that any of the other saiyans have this same ability to learn techniques that they have only seen once before. In fact even Vegeta seems surprised at Goku's ability to adapt and learn, and in Battle of Gods, Beerus comments that Goku is a prodigy.
It has been proven that severe brain injuries can lead to the development of savant-ism, and the concussion Goku received as a toddler was bad enough to alter his personality. This would also explain the fact that Goku is a bit slow compared to the rest of his family members. In exchange for stunted mental and emotional capabilities he gained an innate ability to learn moves after only seeing them once. This could also explain why his body just knew how to fight at the same level of his God mode in the movie.
- Explain Vegeta.
- Vegeta loves his pride. By being unable to become a Super Saiyan after Goku, this was a serious wound to his pride. Thus, it enabled him to become a Super Saiyan.
- This is simply false. Gohan became a Super Saiyan through training, he went SS2 when he saw 16 destroyed. Vegeta became a SS roughly through sheer will and Gotten and Trunks just developed the power by competing with each other. Neither had known any loss. Also Comics can say whatever they want but we don't see a lot of Uchias and the ones we do see seem to flaunt that "rule". Madara gains the Sharingan by losing his best friend, not to death or anything just because and Sasuke gains his not from the death of his entire family but rather in the middle of a fight with Orochimaru.
- Actually, through numerous flashbacks we find out that Sasuke actually unlocked his sharingan the night his family died. But because Itachi knocked him out, he forgot about it, and didn't reveal it again until his fight against Orochimaru. Anyway, it is not the sharingan that is unlocked through loss normally, but the Mangekyo Sharingan. And that rule was never broken.
- It doesn't has to be the only requirement. But it's pretty clear that until the Buu Sagas retconned the series, the power was fueled by powerful negative emotions. You needed either a Rage Breaking Point or cross the Despair Event Horizon in order to trigger the transformation.
- That's not how canon works. Canon is the original work. If it is not part of the manga, it is not canon. The guidebooks aren't canon, the anime isn't canon, the movies (including battle of gods) aren't canon. Not because of quality, not because of who made them, but because they aren't part of the original work. The only exception to this would be an if the Author, in this case Akira Toriyama, explicitly stated that something else was canon. Akira Toriyama has never done that.
- No, you are dead wrong. There are many definitions of canon across all other works of fiction. DBZ, for some odd reason, has inspired many manga worshipers who prefer that so much over the anime that they insist on calling that canon. It's plain delegitimizing the anime, claiming that it is not real or that it is not as important as the manga is. The anime is just set in a different continuity, that's all, but it is still canon. Canon does NOT describe original work alone, that's just one part of it, and you seem to be selectively tweaking the word to support your argument. In DBZ's case, since Toriyama worked on the movies and the filler scenes and the new movie, they are canon, period, although the movies, like the anime, are set in a third, separate continuity, with the exception of Dead Zone. That's also the whole reason DBGT isn't canon, because Toriyama did not work on it.
- He has recently done an interview adding All There in the Manual / Word of God details to the DB universe, with said details including Beerus being the irritable God of Destruction who locked Old Kaioshin inside the Z Sword. So yes, one can infer from this that he does consider it canon.
- Actually, canon is whatever the property owner considers to be part of the work's continuity, regardless of whether he made it or not; this generally includes any parts of the series that they actually worked on by default, and can also include things from other sources, if the IP owner likes them. If a work has multiple forms, then they may all be part of the same canon, or each may have their own canon The first Bardock special retroactively became at least somewhat canonical when Toriyama included Bardock in the manga, for example, and Battle of Gods (which Toriyama worked on, making it canon) made Yo! canon.
- I'd say canon is more of a personal concept rather than a solid truth. Sure, the IP owner has their official canon, and official canon works will follow it, but that's hardly the end of the works in the fandom. Firstly, there's some fandoms that have multiple canons due to reboots/multiverses/IP owner + creator disagreements and other things. For example, Star Wars Legends Canon vs. new Canon. The fandom and fanworks don't fall in line behind the canon. Everyone brings their own personal opinions of what should and shouldn't be canon to the fandom, and helps create other people's. Furthermore, since people, including those of a fictional nature, can be viewed vastly differently by different people, it's hard to establish a "canon" personality just from that. Sure there's some things people tend to agree on, but, to use another example, some people see Snape as hero, and other as basically a wizard MRA who just so happened to join the good guys in guilt, but was still a dick. Furthermore, if a franchise lasts long enough, fans can end up running the canon, like in comic books or Doctor Who. And, of course all of this can overlap. Rather than interpreting canon as a solid thing, I see it as far more fluid, evolving, changing and very subjective.
- Follow up inspired by the above: by accepting a position as one of the gods, Kami limited his ability to directly interfere in the mortal realm. His ki became godly ki, but the amount of ki he was allowed to convert back into regular ki in order to interact with mortals was severely limited. Just like Kaioshin: Piccolo could sense Kaioshin's enormous ki (because he used to have godly ki himself), and others couldn't because mortals can't sense godly ki. Kaioshin wasn't impressed because the mortals were stronger than him, he was impressed because they were stronger than the amount of ki he was allowed to use on Earth. Fusing with Kibito made him think he would be allowed to use his full powers on Earth, but Old!Kaioshin told him that, no, Buu would still obliterate him (because fusing didn't remove him from his position within the pantheon, so his powers would still be constrained). The only gods allowed to use their full ki when interfering in the mortal realm are the gods of destruction, which Kami was not.
- This explains why a battle weary Goku reached a higher level of power in time to fight Frieza. It also, if true, would confirm Piccolo's comment that Vegeta (during the android saga) might have been stronger than Goku. Vegeta's resting power is probably higher than Goku's because he wasn't as experienced with hiding and reading power levels.
- So using standard multiplers (if X=Resting Base Power then Super Saiyan 1=(X)(50)).
- A Mastered Super saiyan has full access to their Active Base power range once transformed.
- Ultra Super Saiyan forms lack the full access. In so much that, while than can increase the base power output, it feels unnatural and places more stress on their bodies.
Also there's more to support that point. Under training (especially gravity training) humans have also performed just as well as Saiyans and probably would have been even better had it not been for the Saiyans' Zenkai abilities and Super Saiyan levels. The humans' power levels after training on the lookout were much higher than Goku's stint at the lookout back in Dragonball. While the fight against the Ginyu force is filler, Tien, Yamcha and Chaoutzu did better against them then Vegeta. And it must be mentioned that both are big eaters when they burn a lot of energy.
Even in Real Life while humans are still one species, there were are very distinct groups with unique characteristics among them.
- To make the guess more wild, it's likely that earth suffered a Dark age at some point when humanity degraded to a much lower level of civilization due to some apocalypse (or a World war between bloodthirsty ancient human ancestors). Some humans escaped and traveled to planet Vegeta, lost touch with their home civilization and themselves degraded to the Stone age in their attempt to adapt to the harsh conditions on the new planet. The native Tuffles too could have inflicted heavy losses against these humans, destroyed whatever tech they had and forced them into the wild where they struggled to survive for a long long time (Reminds me of what happened in Larry Niven's Ringworld). Over time humans on earth again became technologically advanced and evolved to lose their tails and their fighting genes (Super Saiyan genes became recessive to the point where they went vestigial). For Saiyans it was just the opposite. They adapted to the wild, over time probably forgot their own history and turned into savages and evolved into fighting machines under the 10x gravity and gained the ability to transform into apes and their Super Saiyan genes became dominant, but dormant. Thus humans split into two groups, but other than certain genes evolving to becoming dominant and others becoming vestigial, they are in fact the same species.
- Also their genetics are extremely compatible to the extent that their offspring are much more capable then either pure Saiyan or pure human. Perhaps the recessive vestigial Super Mode genes in humans combine with the dominant and active Super mode genes in Saiyans and get activated as a result, giving offspring like Gohan, Goten, Trunks or Pan much stronger genes (or the Super Saiyan genes occupy more of their genetic makeup), giving them more potential. On the other hand the tail genes are weakened over time and they die out. As well as the genes responsible for personality, which explains why only pure Saiyans possess the fighting lust.
- DBZ genetics seem to suggest that Lamarck Was Right. Perhaps after a few generations of very powerful human fighters having their own offspring, those humans' own Super genes will be activated enough to become dominant and we could see the first Super Human transformation, which would be the icing on the cake.
- In Dragon Ball Online, humans are shown to be able to go Super Saiyan, so them having a common ancestor is pretty plausible.
- DBZ follows mendelian genetics, with one exception. Powerful fighter have powerful children. this is because each cell has its own ki, including haploid cells. So when really powerful Goku and really powerful Chichi have sex, it produces really powerful Gohan, because he got a big helping of ki to start off with. Also, the humans in DBO are descended from saiyans. Humans have no super gene, tail gene, or zenkai gene of their own. Hybrids inherit those only from their saiyan parent, which is why hybrids get smaller zenkais.
Related to the above guess, the reason why Half blooded Saiyans are so strong is both because the inherit the "immunities" from their parents as well as the fact that their saiyan immune response over compensates for their (relatively) weaker bodies.
Now a Saiyan's power level needs to be beyond a certain threshold to properly access the Super Saiyan form (a few million or so). Take a look at Goku. After repeated healing and training his power level went to around 90,000 (w/o Kai-O-Ken). But then it went from around 90,000 to 3,000,000 (as per official Daizhenshuu Guides) after the fight against Ginyu. That a 33 fold increase!. You wonder if even Guru could have achieved that. That's followed by Goku finding more and more reserve of power up to a 20x Kaioken and then he lost it and became a Super Saiyan.
After that it's never works like that again except once in the Cell saga where Cell seems to have used it to come close to Super Saiyan 2 (well almost, as Gohan did beat him with one hand down and his power cut in half). It didn't seem to work like that the first time when he swallowed a Senzu Bean, (though it must have done something as his 100% power was strong enough to awe Goku). It's plausible that since Cell didn't need Zenkai for reaching Super Saiyan levels it just worked on boosting his power closer to Super Saiyan 2. Now after Cell was destroyed, it seems to have stopped working on him too as in the Otherworld he was floored by Pikkon. And by this point if healing even works at all on Goku and co., its effect is negligible.
Something about the way Zenkai behaves at that point strongly hints that it actually modifies the Saiyan's body or activates some genes to prepare them for the next stage in evolution and handle the enormous power of the Super Saiyan form. The huge increase in base power is a direct consequence this and the Zenkai essentially works like an inbuilt Unlock Potential ability to boost the Saiyan's power to that threshold where the power level is high enough for the Super Saiyan transformation to happen. The Super Saiyan power only comes when there's a need for it and if there's any need for a Saiyan to push his power level beyond 6 digits, it probably sends upgrades their healing to unlock potential mode because there are very few situations which can push a Saiyan that far.
Goku's increase of 33x was probably because of his frequent use of Kai-o-ken up to 10x (with 20x in reserve) which activated his healing early on to handle such enormous boosts in power. Goku attained the transformation more easily than Gohan or Vegeta and this troper is sure the Kai-o-ken would have definitely had a role in that.
- Although in Goku's fight against Pikkon, he lasted a lot better than Cell did, although he wasn't Super Saiyan 2 material. And Goku did mention that it was working on Gohan while training, more than what it was on him until Gohan actually managed to match Goku. However, Goku and Gohan were both Super Saiyan by this point, and their healing was working like it normally does - nowhere near overdrive like it did in the Namek saga).
- It might be that because Goku was dead, he had an unlimited energy supply. He could even combine Kai-O-Ken with Super Saiyan against Pikkon.
- Wouldn't that mean Zenkai would stop functioning completely after the Saiyan has achieved super saiyan level because it's already served it's purpose, because YOU said Zenkai is to help the saiyan achieve super saiyan level. Zenkai does infact help a saiyan achieve super saiyan but that's not it's main purpose. Zenkai is to help a saiyan compensate for recovered bodily damage to ensure increase their chances of survival. Broly for example was naturally adept, and it's most likely he didn't receive that many injuries in his life time other besides that petty stab wound meaning he really didn't need zenkai to be at super saiyan level because he was already there, but he still has the zenkai ability because he is a saiyan.
- It never worked again the way it had in the fight against Frieza, which suggests that at that point it goes from a Healing Factor to an Unlock Potential power.
- This reaches Fridge Brilliance when you remember that the Kaio-ken places an extreme amount of stress on the user's body, enough that they will literally explode if they go too high. Zenkai triggers every time a Saiyan recovers from near-fatal injuries, which could easily include "barely being able to keep m power from blowing myself up". When Goku trained on King Kai's planet, he probably didn't trigger any Zenkai power-ups due to the nature of the Other World and being dead. When he was training to be able to push it to x10 and x20, Zenkai probably triggered each night, while he slept the training off. He was basically in a constant state of Zenkai, which caused his body to think, "Hey, if he's almost dying every day, something BIG is going to happen". This could easily lead to the aforementioned 33x power-up.
- Except time passes faster in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber than on the outside. In close proximity to a black hole, time passes slower than it does far away from the black hole. Inside a black hole, time as such loses its meaning and becomes a spatial dimension.
- I thought Frieza's mutants made the scouters?
- In fact that remark of Vegeta's is particularly striking because till the Cell Saga believed he was the born talented one. If anything, that probably means Vegeta did take a level in humility after all.
- An of course, as Super 17 says, "It will only make [him] stronger!"
- This is all but proven when Vegeta clearly notices in the Cell Saga that Goku and Gohan are comfortable in their Super forms and then returns to training and doesn't attempt the same thing, though as the Buu saga proves Goku might have been wrong about how much energy transforming wastes.
- In Goku's defense, he did say he didn't have much time to practice SSJ3.
- This really has as much if not more to do with Goku's own trainers than Goku himself. When left to his own devices on the trip to Namek, Goku's training is virtually identical if less intense than Vegeta's; turn up the gravity, blast self, heal with beans. The difference is that Goku's doing it in a controlled environment with a more efficient healing method compared to Vegeta who was increasing his power at the time by getting his ass kicked and thrown into a pod. Beyond that, Goku has always had the benefit of older, wiser trainers who teach him useful techniques like the kao ken. Vegeta was probably left to train himself. It's also likely that Vegeta did get to SSJ2 on his own; he seems confident in that he could take Dabra, who was nearly as strong as Perfect Cell (and thus out of reach of anything short of a SSJ2). While Vegeta's confidence in his abilities and the reality are often not the same thing (see his fight with Frieza, Android 18, and Perfect Cell), this was said against an enemy who he was observing fighting at full strength, giving him a better estimation of their abilities.
- I'd say you need to give credit where credit is due here. Goku was still weaker than Vegeta after being trained by King Kai, Mr. Popo/Kami, Korin, Roshi, and Grandpa Gohan. It wasn't until he started training on his own that he surpassed Vegeta. Granted the Anime and Movies imply he learned SSJ2, dragon fist, and SSJ3 from Grand Kai but we really can't say that's true for certain.
- Keeping with the 'credit where credit is due' idea, though, training with all of those different masters would have been what taught Goku how to train himself when he was on his own. Of course, when he's solo training Goku is usually trying to just build up his sheer level of power rather than learning new techniques (which he seeks out teachers or opponents for), and the best way for a Saiyan to do that is, indeed, to recover from as many severe beatings as possible. Being able to distinguish between the benefits of different kinds of training is something he would have learned from having many different teachers, though.
- And Goku takes sufficient rest. That is just as important as training hard, because the real improvement happens during the recovery phase.
- Plus he traveled the Earth as a kid.
- Dear lord. You're right...
- He's also an orphan.
- Surprisingly good with children? Where the hell are the goal posts on this standard? Piccolo threw Gohan at a mountain, nearly starved him to death and left him fighting dinosaurs for survival when he was like six. Add that to the fact that he clearly couldn't read that Gotenks was playing around despite how much he was over acting the part and I'd feel comfortable saying he knows close to nothing about kids. He just likes Gohan and likely always will.
- Nope. The transformations are straight up multiplications of the "base form," ergo if Goku's super saiyan transformation is stronger than Vegeta's, then Goku's base is stronger than Vegeta's current form when he killed someone.
- But they never straight up fought in Super Saiyan form, at least not the same level. Goku always was a step up from Vegeta's current form when he killed someone. He was SSJ when he fought Frieza, and SSJ3 when he fought Buu, and didn't even kill Buu with his own power.
- Who ever came up with that whacked up theory must be a huge Vegeta fan.
- Goku relies on his Super Saiyan forms a lot more because he's usually pitted against the Big Bad. Threatening his own safety fighting in his base form when he could power up early on would be the DBZ equivalent of Never Bring a Knife to a Gun Fight. The only times we see him consciously avoid leveling up is when he has a specific intent - i.e. not defeating Buu so the surviving fighters on Earth could learn to shoulder the burden of Earth's protection. Besides, this theory would only really stand if Goku never trained in his base form, which is a bit of a Logic Bomb since earlier arcs showed us that attainment of higher power levels could only be done through the strengthening of the previous form, allowing the fighter to reach the breach of its potential before ascending. Hence, SSJ2 comes after a body becomes properly trained to SSJ1, which in turn would imply that the base form must be consistently strengthened, as well. Given the power he exemplifies in the Buu arc, it's obvious he doesn't take very well to the idea of "resting in peace."
- Plus, the few times it's been speculated that Vegeta might have surpassed Goku's at-the-time-strength in an arc, Vegeta has definitely been transformed. He also has a bad habit of over-estimating himself, which means that, unlike Goku, he starts off a lot of his fights with a lower form than he should, as a sort of condescending middle finger to his opponents.
- ...Uh? Please elaborate because you're not making sense.
- Simple. Cell was holding back while he died fighting Gohan. He has both Goku AND Piccolo's cells, so that is one factor holding him back. Vegeta's cells, as well, and even though Vegeta doesn't really like Gohan, He wouldn't kill him at the time the cells were taken from him.
- Simply having the cells would be irrelevant unless he was also stated to have some form of genetic memory which would allow Goku and Piccolo's feelings of affection for Gohn to matter. And if he had that then he probably wouldn't have been such a monster.
- While normally genes don't affect memory, in Dragon Ball Z they obviously do, especially in Cell. Thus why Cell knows all of the techniques of those whose genetic material he is composed of. Maybe Cell is not an actual individual, but a mental mash-up of those from whom his cells were taken.
- It's fairly obvious Cell gets personality traits from the people who's genes he has. It would explain his Blood Knight tendencies. That being said, he also got cells from Frieza and Vegeta, the first of whom hated Gohan and the second rather enjoyed punching him.
- This would actually make sense. Its hard to gauge the gap between Cell and Gohan but Cell has Saiyan DNA and Tien DNA. I can't imagine that a four armed Oozaru wouldn't have gotten him through.
- Simple. Cell was holding back while he died fighting Gohan. He has both Goku AND Piccolo's cells, so that is one factor holding him back. Vegeta's cells, as well, and even though Vegeta doesn't really like Gohan, He wouldn't kill him at the time the cells were taken from him.
- Chichi would be strong enough to support Gohan in her prime, but not as much when she was pregnant with Goten (not to mention she'd be emotionally unstable with Goku's death and everything). Makes sense. But could also be that Chichi and Bulma wanted to prevent any future troubles (as they've notices how powerful saiyans could become) and just decided to cut their tails.
- Cool story, bro, But I doubt it. Remember Gokus Tail? It was torn, ripped, and cut off thrice, and only when Kami himself got it off did it stay that way. Chichi and Bulma almost definatly could not pull that off. (Hehe)
- Gohan's never grew back once his was gone. Why would other half-Saiyan's tails?
- It did. Remember, Piccolo yanked it off after destroying the moon when Gohan transformed during that one year of training for the Saiyans. It grew back spontaneously when Vegeta unleashed his fake moon to transform which leads to Gohan's transformation to Great Ape which helps win the battle.
- Perhaps Goten and Trunks did have a tail once, but it was removed shortly after their birth, as suggested above, and it never grew back because perhaps Bulma found out a way to prevent the tail from growing back and shared it with Chi Chi. Maybe Bulma visited Kami himself and had him do to Trunks what he did to Goku to keep his tail from growing back, and later the same was done to Goten, this time by Piccolo, who had by then fused with Kami. The reason why Gohan's tail did not get the same treatment might have to do with the fact that it was not until Goku fought Vegeta that he discovered that the Saiyans become giant monkeys during the full moon. By the time Goten and Trunks were born, Goku already knew the dangers a Saiyan with a tail could present, so nobody was worried about Goku being upset or intrigued by the suggestion of his son having his tail removed.
- Maybe the tail stops growing back after a Saiyan achieves Super Saiyan status? Gohan's tail never (to my knowledge) grew back after he went Super Saiyan, and Vegeta, though he seems to think his tail is going to grow back, doesn't get his back either. Goten and Trunks both ascended at ridiculously young ages, so if their mothers removed them at birth, it could be that they just never had the chance to grow theirs back before they couldn't anymore. Especially if the regrowth requires some kind of impetus, like moonlight, which they wouldn't get a lot of exposure to (what with the moon being gone and all.)
- Alternatively, it could just be that the tail doesn't always breed true in hybrids.
- Cool story, bro, But I doubt it. Remember Gokus Tail? It was torn, ripped, and cut off thrice, and only when Kami himself got it off did it stay that way. Chichi and Bulma almost definatly could not pull that off. (Hehe)
- Probably not. Cell's regeneration is probably programmed so that the "from a single cell" thing doesn't kick in if there's already a Cell walking around. Otherwise they'd be too busy trying to prove which Cell is strongest to get anything else done. Or he simply doesn't shed skin cells and just reabsorbs them into his body.
- Cell can't regenerate from just any cell. He has a core group of cells from which all other parts grow, and can only regenerate if the core isn't damaged.
- I mean, this technically isn't wrong because Cell can canonically reproduce - hence the Cell Jr.'s.
- It's a fact that Krillin was bullied at the temple, but there isn't a shred of evidence that he was abused by his parents. He never mentions them in the manga so we can assume they are dead, but the series stays neutral on the subject otherwise.
- Most likely not. The original design for a super saiyan three had a tail, and it was a sign of power.
- I don't think so. When Goku was turned back into a kid in GT, He got his tail back, and he was still able to go SSJ, SSJ3, AND SSJ4. Also the SSJ4 transformations have tails.
- First, GT's place in canon is, at best, debatable. Second, Goku had already become a Super Saiyan by that point, and had been using the form for decades. It's established that once a Saiyan makes the transformation, they can do it any nearly any time he or she wishes. And on that note, yes, female Saiyans could, theoretically, make the transformation. Toriyama said that Pan would have had the ability if she had sufficient motivation, like her grandfather and father before her.
- Or, the reason they grow a tail in SSJ4 is because it's a battery. They generate so much energy, that they would be to powerful if they didn't have a tail in that form.
- I doubt it, the creator himself admitted he just forgot about the tail by the time Trunks and Goten rolled around. Also the control art for Broly from Akira Toriyama specifically mentions that it doesn't really matter whether or not he has a tail. While Broly isn't cannon he was designed by the creator.
- Now, let us observe the various Saiyan transformations, starting with their full moon monster form. Self explanatory, an enormous ape, covered in hair that is BROWN. The Super Saiyan one even had the extra hair to form the Super Saiyan spiked hair of doom. After, we discuss the Super Saiyan transformation itself. In the first stage, the hair spikes all the way up and become gold (an important Saiyan color), Vegeta has this hair style naturally which can explain why he gives Goku, who had MORE hair in their first fight, so many problems. In the Super Saiyan 2 stage, hair gets longer and bigger. In Super Sayian 3, well...they of course get much, much more hair, and lose their eyebrows. Now, According to the theory so far, this mean Raditz, who was basically just a Super Saiyan 3 with black hair and eyebrows should have destroyed Goku. But that's just it, his hair was not blonde/gold, and he had EYEBROWS. Perhaps this acted as a sort of power inhibitor, which would also explain why Super Saiyan 3 gives the utterly stupid fashion statement of lacking eyebrows. All Raditz had to do was shave off his eyebrows! So close...
- Now, and lastly, I'll talk about Super Saiyan 4, the most powerful form we've seen yet. Or that I've seen yet anyway... The hair is definitely longer, but not quite as long as in the previous incarnation of the legendary Super Saiyan, however! They compensate by growing red FUR on everywhere but the major muscles, but hair can't grow on steel so that's okay. Not only this, they also grow back their tail, which only exists in this form, even if the Saiyan in question has had his tail pulled out instead of cut, removing it, supposedly, forever. I guess forever means "unless they need space for the extra hair."
- It actually still works with the Super Saiyan God transformations. Red hair, blue hair.
- More like the combined evil of Namekians made flesh, like Piccolo Daimaho/King Piccolo.
- Garlic and Garlic Jr. are Makyo-seijin.
- I don't think Dragon Ball is like Bleach...
- Why Namek?
- Because it's all 'what should have been' flashing before Goku's eyes during the last few seconds of his life before Namek explodes, of course.
- Usually people imagine NICE things when their deaths are impending. Being killed by the very next Big Bad doesn't seem like that.
- Knowing Goku, finding the most worthy opponent may be the happiest moment of his life.
- This would mean that fighting is more important that food.
- …it's Goku.
- Because it's all 'what should have been' flashing before Goku's eyes during the last few seconds of his life before Namek explodes, of course.
- More importantly, WHY would they still be there?
- This is a children's cartoon, you freak!
- Absolutely CANNOT unsee!!!
- Aaaaalternatively, Ox King naively hopes that Roshi has standards, Chichi is TWELVE in that arc. Or he has faith in her ability to throw that head blade. Which she did. And it was awesome.
- But the Ox-King didn't know what Roshi was like. Roshi made it a point that he didn't want the Ox-King to know about the deal with Bulma, meaning he didn't want Ox King to know. Plus Turtle was surprised at Roshi's pervertedness when he first heard of it. Wouldn't that mean Ox King doesn't know?
- Backed up by the fact that Roshi used to be able to ride the Nimbus, which only pure-hearted people can ride. Considering Grandpa Gohan's and the Ox-King's ages, it's possible that Roshi was different when he was training those two.
- Perhaps another way of filling it in is that Vegeta considers himself unworthy of the title of King as he isn't the strongest, but has enough respect for his bloodline to call himself Prince.
- Or he could still be Prince Vegeta because he hasn't had a coronation, so he can't claim the title of King.
- Another alternative is that the Saiyans were a Principality, like Wales- Prince was the title of the ruler, not the heir to the throne. Frieza would have allowed them to keep the title as long as they submitted to him.
- Nope, his father was King. King of the Saiyans under Freeza's overlordship of the entire universe, mind you, but King nonetheless. I think that the above theory about lack of a coronation sounds right, not to mention there's no longer a Planet Vegeta to be King of. By the way, I've never quite figured this out: are we supposed to assume that King Vegeta was weaker than Bardock? The movie implies that, but never comes out and says it.
- Alternately, King Vegeta was the Prince of All Saiyans at the time of his death, and his name was King Vegita (Bejita-O), like how Fuhrer Bradley's first name was "King".
- Vegeta is the Prince of a race that consists of four people. Eight if you include the movies. He could declare himself King at any time because, hey, not like anyone can stop him. But as vain as Vegeta is, he probably realizes what a petty, pointless act that would be. In fact his vanity is probably what stops him from doing it; he knows he'd look like an immature child calling himself king of the sandbox at the playground.
- For what it's worth, it seems like it would be very in line with Saiyan custom for accession of the throne to involve, if not full-on Klingon Promotion, then some sort of ritual combat to ensure the Saiyans always had a strong leader. Maybe being 'Prince' was a birthright but you couldn't call yourself King unless you defeated the previous king or challenger(s) to the throne. This presents two possibilities:
- Because King Vegeta was never defeated in battle by Prince Vegeta, the younger being a child and off-world at the time, the title remains forever vacant, OR:
- The title was usurped by Frieza since Frieza was the one to kill King Vegeta. This would partly explain the Vegeta we know as of Planet Namek being so motivated to kill Frieza more than dynastic sentiment or even anger at the destruction of his home planet, which are not Saiyan things, and certainly not (at the time) Vegeta things. Killing Frieza to regain a right to his title is definitely a Vegeta thing. Which actually feeds into the WMG below.
(The line of "succession", as it were, went like this: King Vegeta -> Freeza -> Future Trunks -> Cell -> Gohan -> Buu -> Goku -> Beerus.)
Early on, Vegeta called himself the Prince because he really did want the throne and was actively working to defeat and/or kill Goku. Eventually Character Development settled in, but he kept the title out of habit/pride, though eventually he dropped it altogether.
- Well, here's a more elaborate theory I just thought of; Turles is a clone created by Frieiza, because he saw that Goku will not finish his mission to rid Earth of sentient beings. Furthermore, Frieza gave Turles information about the tree so he had more of a chance of beating Goku.
- If I recall correctly, it's stated that most low-level Saiyans resemble a basic archetype, which is why Bardok, Goku and Turles are virtually identical. Presumably a remnant of some sort of clan/serfdom system they had before they became mercenaries.
- You are correct. Additionally Turles is older than Goku and Frieza did not know anything about Goku until the Frieza Arc. Lastly, Turles isn't even canonical (the only time when he could've arrived on Earth is after the Saiyan Arc and before the Finding Namek Arc but when he arrives he fights the whole Z team even though most of them are dead) so don't bother with theories.
- Actually, the film could easily fit within the three years training for the Androids' arrival.
- Like in Brave New World.
- The only problem with considering anything about Tree of Might 'canon' is that Goku seemed unable to go Super Saiyan during the movie, or had never even heard of it. The most he could to was Kaio-Ken, which seems to place this movie in a weirld ALT!Timeline where nobody had a reason to go to Namek and use their Dragon Balls, thus everybody was present even though Goku had at this point trained under King Kai, and thus knew techniques like the Kaio-Ken and Spirit Bomb - which, in the timeline, meant that he had returned to fight Nappa and Vegeta, then almost immediately left to go to Namek...and Tien, Chiaotzu, and Yamcha were dead. Which kinda screwballs the roster for this movie. Still doesn't invalidate the idea that "lesser" Saiyans had a smaller pool of people/genes to choose from, or perhaps even using cloning for low-intensity needs.
- Also, Turles being created by Freiza? He hates Saiyans, for one, and if Freiza knew about the Tree of Might, why in the hell would he let anyone but himself eat its fruits? Just seems rather out-of-character for him.
- You are correct. Additionally Turles is older than Goku and Frieza did not know anything about Goku until the Frieza Arc. Lastly, Turles isn't even canonical (the only time when he could've arrived on Earth is after the Saiyan Arc and before the Finding Namek Arc but when he arrives he fights the whole Z team even though most of them are dead) so don't bother with theories.
- This is what I believe too. Once Vegeta realizes that Freeza destroyed his planet and his people, he stops being evil and joins the good guys.
- Just a side note, I remember King Kai in the dub making a joke about how many Saiyans it took to build a rocket ship. The Saiyans must have been able to build a starship, but it probably took a long time and was primitive by galactic standards.
- Well, other than the filler and DBGT, there's no indication that Saiyans came from another planet or stole their tech. I personally prefer to think that some Saiyan scientists looked at the night sky and dreamed about punching the stars in their mouths. Not to mention the possibility of finally having a city that wasn't blown up by some overpowered brat having a temper tantrum.
- Given the existence of galactic empires like Frieza's, it was probably a matter of time before somebody stumbled upon the Saiyans, regardless of their personal potential for technological advancement. Either way, there are numerous benefits to being employed for the galaxy's Big Bad, including access to the products of galactic trade... Not to mention the ability to redirect their natural aggression onto species other than their own. It's just that there are major drawbacks to working for the universe's Big Bad as well. Like being blown up.
- Firstly, Goku and Vegeta had a total of seven years non-stop training to surpass him, while Gohan didn't. It's not too much of stretch to consider that they surpassed him in strength in that time. Also, Gohan's opponents were Cell and his "children", who in comparison to Gohan were punching bags, well the former was. The Cell Juniors were more like exploding pinata, which was all simply to imply that Gohan achieved an unrivaled state of strength. The same thing was done when Goku first turned Super Saiyan, so your argument pretty much lays out like that. And finally, it ignores the statements from both Goku and Vegeta upon turning SSJ2 that "You're stronger than Gohan when he first fought Cell." Nuff said.
- Most probably not. Trunks can go SSJ easily too, and Vegeta most likely wasn't in SSJ form at the time of his conception. He may have been capable of going SSJ, same as Goku, but he wasn't doing the deed in SSJ state, so to speak.
- Vegeta probably wasn't Super Saiyan when Future Trunks was conceived, but due to the extra training he was doing due to knowing about the androids coming, he was Super Saiyan when Present Trunks was conceived, which is why he finds it so much easier to turn SSJ then his alternate time line self.
- False. Future Trunks turned SSJ at a very early age as well.
- Not nearly as early as the main time line's Trunks. Remember his training with Future Gohan?
- Vegeta probably wasn't Super Saiyan when Future Trunks was conceived, but due to the extra training he was doing due to knowing about the androids coming, he was Super Saiyan when Present Trunks was conceived, which is why he finds it so much easier to turn SSJ then his alternate time line self.
- Also Chichi hates SSJ form, I doubt she'd let Goku do it like that. Unless he forced her. Which is a whole new issue.
- Bra also doesn't seem to be able to turn into SSJ easily — or at least has far too little interest in fighting to even try. Which might lend credibility to this theory.
- Also, it is stated that Goten was conceived before the Cell Games, and Goku was in SSJ pretty much permanently at the time...
- To me, it just looks like half-breed Saiyans have an easier time turning Super Saiyan, but the results are less spectacular. And in Super Saiyan form, Goku probably couldn't hold a turkey without roasting it, so just forget about makin' love.
- But remember that the only available time for Goten's conception was during the several days before the Cell Games (see above), during which Goku was in permanent, but also "normal" SSJ, without radiating any violent energy. So Goten pretty much HAD to have been conceived while Goku was in a semi-permanent SSJ state.
- I agree, it seems like it may be due to Heterosis - when creatures breed with similar genes breed, the offspring is similar to the parents. When varying creatures breed, the offspring can turn out better due to a wider selection of beneficial genes. Although it's extremely weird how humans can breed with saiyans considering how horses can't even breed properly with zebras. My guess is that humans are descended from Saiyans who used the technology of other races and evolved into being more peaceful due to the Earth being an easier place to live on.
- Or, alternately, Saiyans are descended from humans taken from prehistoric earth by aliens and genetically enhanced into biological weapons of mass destruction....
- According to some theorists, notably among the Dragon Ball wiki, the half-saiyans transform with greater ease due to inheriting the saiyans' fighting potential as well as the human capacity to release their emotions (saiyans tend to suppress anything other than anger and bloodlust). And since the SSJ transformations depend on extreme rage...
- Also note that it is only in the anime movie that Future Trunks' SSJ transformation was triggered by his grief and rage over Future Gohan's death. In the manga he was already able to transform, and the events that triggered his transformation is in fact not ever mentioned. And really, Gohan wasn't subjected to all that much emotional stress during his transformation sequence either, not when compared to what Goku and Vegeta went through. Then consider all their ages: Future Trunks (anime movie) - 14, Future Trunks(manga) - younger than 13, Gohan - 11 (physically 11.5-12 counting subjective time), Future Gohan - unknown, but implied to be soon after Goku's and the other Z-fighter's deaths, which would be mid teens at the latest. In short all the half-Saiyans in all the time lines all made SSJ at ridiculously young ages.
- This theory (that SSJ transformation ability is inherited in a partly Lamarkian fashion) also potentially explains why Pan did not ever transform into SSJ, despite several instances of extreme emotional stress/rage that might have caused such a transformation. At the time she was conceived, her father had undergone the Elder Kai's manipulation and did not need to transform to access his full power. Couple that with the fact that Pan appears to be at least as strong as a low-level SSJ1, on par with Goku when he fought Freeza (note how easily she disables and captures Dr. Gero/Android 20 in one scene), and how her ki aura turns SSJ gold when she powers up, and it raises the possibility that Pan inherited some part of the "mystic" transformation from Gohan, enabling her to access SSJ level power without physically transforming.
- This ties in with the WMG of the tail-SSJ connection above. We know Goku hadn't gone SSJ prior to Gohan's conception, but had by the time of Goten's. Vegeta had the capability to go SSJ when Trunks was conceived. We also know we never see a SSJ with a tail. Perhaps the removal of a Saiyan's tail begins a BIOLOGICAL process that results in the ability to go SSJ . This change could be passed on to offspring. Goku had lost his tail a good while ago when Gohan had been born, but had yet to complete the process. Thus, Gohan has an easier time going SSJ than Goku or Vegeta because he started somewhere in the middle of the process and the tail prevented it from progressing. By the time Goten was conceived, Goku had completed the SSJ process and passed his new genetic sequence more fully onto Goten. The reason Vegeta was able to go SSJ so comparatively soon (compared to Goku) after losing his tail was because he was in more near-death experiences. Its canon that Saiyans get a chunk stronger after almost dying, possibly pushing them along the SSJ process, but further, he was HEALED alot more. Indicating a higher rate of cell division. Goku regaining his tail in GT (a slow time consuming process) started a new biological process that allowed for a SSJ4 state. Baby replicated this process within Vegeta after seeing it in Goku.
- Nice explanation but mostly likely NOT. The whole SSJ transformation was already a legend among Saiyan culture. Vegeta briefly pictures a gold SSJ Oozaru rampaging per the legends he was told and no Saiyans prior to Goku (who was not on his native planet) ever let their tails be removed. So there is reasons to believe that SSJ could be achieved by Saiyans with tails intact but it was so rare that it became something of myth and legend.
- Dragon Ball takes place in Earth in the future. In the future, genetic experiments created talking animals and brought dinosaurs back to life.
- Either that, or some time before the story, a furry got a hold of the Dragon Balls and wished that everyone with his same fetish turned into the kind of animal they are attracted to.
- Super establishes that there are multiple universes, and multiple Earths. Earth 7 is obviously not OUR Earth in any timeline; who is to say that only ONE species can become sapient at once per planet? Perhaps Earth 7 had several different species come to sapience, without humans interfering with it, or killing off what they might have seen as intelligent rivals, as our Earth's humans would undoubtedly do (what do you think would happen if someone caught chimps or raccoons or even, say, rats - creatures with hands - making tools? It would not end well for the new tool users.)
- Either that, or some time before the story, a furry got a hold of the Dragon Balls and wished that everyone with his same fetish turned into the kind of animal they are attracted to.
- Bulma found a dragon ball in her basement to make the radar — presumably someone just randomly picked it up or bought it as a fancy jewel. No wishes had previously been granted in 100 years, I think the manga says this.
- Going off of the above theories, he's hundreds of years old and collects the Dragon Balls every few centuries because the more often the Dragon is summoned the more widespread the knowledge of the Dragon Balls and their wish granting abilities will become. Bet at some point he wished himself immortal and spent centuries lying low, slowly nudging mankind in the direction he wanted, mastering the laws of man, unraveling the mysteries of physics, to built an unseen empire that encompasses the globe and allows him to construct a business monopoly that no worldly power will ever be able to challenge. Oh, and at some point he wished for immortality and everlasting youth cause hey if you're going to live with someone forever they might as well be super-hot right?
- The official map of the DB world shows that it, first off much smaller then our current world. And second, and most importantly, that it is a COMPLETELY different shape than ours. A much more likely theory than the "700 years since we just restarted the calendar" is "it's been 700 years since we used all those bombs to blow the world into a different shape".
- The fact that the continents are shaped differently could mean that continental drift eventually reshaped the Earth, which would make the setting over 100 million years in the future...or it could just be some sort of terraforming, or people with dragon balls wishing for the changes.
- Makes sense to me.
- Perhaps he never understood the whole concept of "blue is for boys, pink is for girls", being an alien and everything...
- Real saiyans wear pink... Because of the stains on their skin of the blood of their enemies! (They never fought nameks or vulcans.)
- Problem is, he DID mind wearing the shirt. He acted disgusted - unless we're talking about the manga, where it's never mentioned - because it's in black and white, of course.
- He mostly did mind wearing human clothes, if we take in consideration he was one hell of an arrogant prick at that time (okay, just slightly less after that). He didn't really care about the color, what was unnerving to him was to wear such fragile garment. Also, remembering the other shirts he had to use, he doesn't have what we call "fashion skills".
- Vegeta isn't even shown wearing pink in any of the manga materials. It's just an anime addition by a gender-confused staffer, trying to project his/her own insecurity on Vegeta. How's that for WMG?
- ...Are you being serious? I'm disappointed and ashamed, here I thought tropers were more evolved than that
- Lovely.
- That's pretty much a given, Namek orbits crazily around three Suns... That's why they are so strong.
- Actually, Word of God in the recent (Japanese only) guidebook "Super Exciting Guide: Character Volume" says that Namekians have enzymes in their bodies that turn water into nutrients.
- Which is exactly what plants do. And of course, this is coming from the same guy who said tails are a recessive trait even though Gohan had one, and the fact that he has a daughter demonstrates he doesn't have a monosomy disorder.
- The similarity is amusing, but Fasha is clearly killed just days after Goku's birth, long before Videl was conceived.
- Plus Fasha was on a different planet the day after Goku was born. That's some impressive recovery if she really is the mother.
- Why a lot of squick if GT is canon? If you mean Pan, her first appearance was at the end of DBZ, not in GT.
- Even if there was a possibility of Fasha being Videl's mother, Toriyama nuked that rumor that Fasha is Goku's mother by revealing Gine, Goku's real mother.
- Alternatively, she wasn't a Saiyan's offspring, but some sort of superhuman experiment, and her mom was a hot scientist. How such hottie could get with
HerculeMr. Satan and have a cute daughter is yet to be explained.- What's love got to do with it? She chose him because of his claims to be the strongest man, as part of her plan to breed a Super-Soldier. After selecting the proper chromosome matches for her brains and his brawn, plus possibly some Saiyan DNA she found lying on some battlefield, Videl was the result.
- She could even be Dr. Gero's daughter, and planned to take over the world with a super soldier, but probably didn't expect to be a labrat for Gero's heart virus (look theories below, and you know he'd be capable). After she finally got used to her family life, she suffered the same symptoms, dying when Videl was a kid. Tear Jerker indeed.
- Nitpick, but Krilln isn't the only ordinary human capable of flight. Yamcha is, too. Of course, that doesn't detract from your point.
- Riff e Tensinhan as, supposedly, everyone else from the same school.
- Tien/Tenshinhan had a good chance of not being human. Didn't recall Yamcha flying, though it seems that he had in Z.
- Yamcha flew all the time in Z, check out the android saga.
- Tien is stated clearly to be a human who gained his third eye through "attaining enlightenment". He and Chiaotzu apparently learned it as a technique from the crane school (Roshi's rival). By the end of Dragon Ball and the beginning of Z, most of the Z fighters at that time possessed the ability.
- What's love got to do with it? She chose him because of his claims to be the strongest man, as part of her plan to breed a Super-Soldier. After selecting the proper chromosome matches for her brains and his brawn, plus possibly some Saiyan DNA she found lying on some battlefield, Videl was the result.
- Another possibilty may be that Videl is actually Fasha reborn as a human with no memories of her past life... After all, you do have Kid Buu reincarnate as Uub at the end of Dragon Ball Z, who's to say that it hasn't happened before (it also seems to be the natural process for those who were not totally evil)? The main difference between the two cases is that Goku made the request for Uub to retain some of his past life's fighting skill and potential (at least I think that's the case), while Fasha's memories were wiped completely before she was reborn as Videl. But, on some sort of subconcious level, she remembered certain details... That's why Videl was able to learn how to use her Ki to fly so fast!
- If such is the case, Fasha's memory wouldn't need wiping. When a person is reincarnated as another after death, all memories and knowledge of their previous life disappear permanently. That's why no one can remember ever having any past lives. If Fasha was reborn as Videl, she wouldn't remember her past life anyway.
- Ten dollars says someone thought you were serious before they read my bullet point.
- I thought he was serious till he got to the point about the hair falling out, lol.
- #17 and #18 were originally human twins, brother and sister, who were forcefully turned into androids by Gero.
- Not to mention the fact that 18 calls him brother at one point.
- Maybe she just respects his gender-identity choice?
- She doesn't just call him brother, she repeatedly teases him for being a man - liking cars, never wanting to ask directions, etc.
- That would be pretty ruthlessly funny if he had been made into one against his will, no?
- Makes sense, since they seem like regular street youths but most of the other androids are stylized somehow, with few exceptions including Gero himself, who is confirmed as a former human.
- Not to mention the fact that 18 calls him brother at one point.
- Remember, it was only in the anime that #17 has a male voice. Maybe in the manga Toriyama intended for them to sound the same—after all, they look exactly the same except for the hair. And #17's bandanna could be covering up some cleavage...
- Oh my god, you mean there's a strong guy in Dragon Ball who doesn't have 24-inch pythons unless he gets fused with his clone from hell in an alternate continuation? EGADS!
- Alternatively, they gave it to him unwittingly. Their ancestors had long since developed immunity to it, but Goku hadn't and had the bad luck to be physiologically similar. The end result was much the same as if a 12th-century native american was transported to Europe during the Black Death- guaranteed infection with something that he had no resistance to.
- I buy this theory. It also explains why he's the only one who fell sick.
- If we take in consideration that it happened around the same time that Gero's mosquito spy was collecting DNA, Gero would be responsible for this; because who is much of a coward to plan such things and knows genetic engineering enough to make a virus that would affect a saiyan?
- This troper finds it unlikely considering the differences in the time line. Goku dies to the virus earlier, the more powerful Androids are sent out. Likely Gero fearing Goku learned of the plot and was secretly training as Goku isn't making news or around any more. Goku lives and makes some news, the weaker but "safer" androids are sent out thinking Goku was still weak.
- Remember driving instructor? He was coughing all the time... Or Vegeta, he was surprisingly tired in the late Freeza arc. Aliens are ruled out, Goku never infected any of his friends, and a virus was still active 20 years later (so they worked at medicine).
- How come medicine worked on it, then?
- Simple Goku's heart was weakened, he was strong enough to fight the Devilmite beam. But it weakened his heart enough to allow the heart virus to work, why else was Goku the only one affected?
- Problem. If this heart virus was active enough over 20 years for a cure to be worked on and made in the future…wait, are we saying Devilman went around all this time he hasn't been seen on-air giving Devilmite beams to ordinary pure-hearted people?
- Simple Goku's heart was weakened, he was strong enough to fight the Devilmite beam. But it weakened his heart enough to allow the heart virus to work, why else was Goku the only one affected?
- It wouldn't happen because almost everyone that wanted to take over when Freeza eventual death would happen was working for him and died. The only one that wanted such thing is alive after his death is Vegeta (who pretty much redeemed himself); or, if you take in consideration Sealed Evil in a Can, Buu.
- Two problems. The first is that power levels for better or worse seem to make a lot more difference in who wins a fight than inteligence or talent. So once the Ginyu force and Frieza were wiped out Zarbon likely could have taken command with little trouble. Possibly less trouble than the Captain Ginyu since all the flashbacks suggest that Zarbon and Dodoria are the next in command regardless of their power levels. The second being that Frieza couldn't be everywhere at once and since it's implied that the Saiyans are well above the rank and file (and lets be honest Raditz wasn't all that powerful by any scale used in DBZ) the elimination of Frieza, King Cold, the Ginyu Force, Zarbon and Dodoria and Cui all at once is an enormous vacuum.
- Why assume that the only megalomaniac villains out there are the ones we see? Surely, some reasonably powerful people are going to come crawling out of the woodwork when they get their chance?
- If you count GT, then Dr. Myuu and his Machine Mutant Empire would count as one such villain.
- Freeza's empire is stated in the Anime dub to have slightly over 40 planets, sometime in the early Namek Saga. That's a lot of worlds, but considering that the average world has no Saiyin-level Chi-users, and the number of powerful individuals who died around the same time as Frieza (anyone left after that struggle would have to be too weak for the Ginyu Force, and probably weaker than Zarbon or Dodoria), no war would have resulted which a lone Z fighter couldn't wrap up on a dull weekend. Most likely Vegeta, during his stint of away-from-Earth training which ultimately got him a Super Saiyin form. Though, of course, he would have just killed any warlords, and said he was coming back later to rule their worlds. Maybe people are still out there, trembling in fear at the though of his return...
- The show is pretty coy in describing what Frieza and his henchmen are exactly, but they were far from civilized. They knew nothing of technology and power levels, yet somehow they had really impressive technology and power levels; sometimes they called themselves "mutants." I'd figured they were bio-engineered soldiers, and the real bosses were on some other planet.
- The 2008 special explains that Abo and Cado took over, so no real problems. Plus, by the end of the special, they're friendly with the Z fighters, which is probably good news for their empire. Obviously not canon, but it is an explanation.
- Vegeta was shown at one point beating up on The Remnant of Frieza's forces on the occasional world, so it looks like the individual planets were simply allowed to go free (if Abo and Cado didn't take them back).
- Must be filler. After the Frieza arc the DBZ team had no further access to spaceships, and the only ones who ever space-travelled after that were Goku and Dende.
- Dr. Briefs almost certainly still has the blueprints for the insanely upgraded version of Goku's spacepod that he built for Goku, and IIRC, Bulma herself modified Piccolo's ship for human use, so those plans should still be rolling around as well.
- Have we neglected Cooler? Or King Cold? Frieza's older brother and father, respectively? They most likely have control of his empire now.
- Not... terribly likely, given that King Cold was killed by Future Trunks about two minutes after Frieza, and Cooler was killed in the movies. He may have gotten sorta better, but wasn't in any condition to do any ruling. And was killed once and for all anyway.
- Not to mention Cooler is movie-only.
- The empire is at least double 40 planets - The planet Vegeta stops at before going to Namek is #79. This issue is actually adressed in Dragon Ball Online as the main villain of the game takes leadership over the remains of Freeza's forces.
- The way I figured the empire worked, and this is taking Cooler into account as movie-only or not, his movie doesn't really contradict anything and fits nicely within the series timeline, is that King Cold is the actual ruler of the overall empire. Frieza and Cooler, despite Frieza at the very least being stronger than Cold, are subservient to their father but left to operate more or less autonomously, given their own territory to have power over. Within Frieza's territory, he has decided to keep the existence of his father and brother secret and propagate the belief among his followers and subjects that he is the ruler of the universe, partly out of ego and partly so no one gets the idea of trying to instigate a war between the three factions. After Frieza's defeat on Namek, Vegeta began taking a metaphorical sledge hammer to Frieza's empire as he searched for Goku in space while King Cold was having Frieza healed and repaired. After Frieza and Cold die, Cooler assumes control over whatever's left of Frieza's holdings as well as what territory Cold ruled personally, assuming such territory existed. This explains the gap between Frieza and Cold dying and Cooler showing up. Upon Cooler's death, the scenario presented by this WMG took place, but earth was left alone either due to obscurity or because if you have five people each stronger than your newly deceased evil overlord living on the same planet and apparently content to remain there punching each other, you leave them the hell alone.
- Must be filler. After the Frieza arc the DBZ team had no further access to spaceships, and the only ones who ever space-travelled after that were Goku and Dende.
- If you go by one of the comedic mangas, there is someone else to take over-Furiza, Frieza's son. Presumably the Changelings are being led by the regent, keeping the hell away from the Saiyans.
- No, they did NOT. They wished that everyone killed by Frieza and his men would come back; as Tien and Yamcha didn't immediately come back to life, the argument that Vegeta and Nappa counted as Frieza's men at that point is invalid.
- Ah, but Vegeta hadn't turned truant by that point (unless he did, but that's not the point of this page). Sure, he didn't like Frieza, but I doubt that matters. I like this one.
- Vegeta spefically didn't count. Even if Vegeta's body count on Namek had been chalked up to Frieza, it's mentioned that it's not when all the survivors are wished back to Earth and Vegeta laughs about it. The wish was to return to life all those Frieza killed and it was extended to include those killed by his actions. When Vegeta was on earth he wasn't acting under orders. Given how broadly the wish was made it's not impossible that the Ginyu are alive. It was Frieza's fault they were around, Frieza did put them in the situation that got them killed and apparently death by heart ache is considered murder.
- Ah, but Vegeta hadn't turned truant by that point (unless he did, but that's not the point of this page). Sure, he didn't like Frieza, but I doubt that matters. I like this one.
- And his hybrid son (or daughter, whatever) will appear in the next DBZ movie as an important plot point. If they made Vegeta's long lost permashota brother in this recent movie, why not Nappa's kid?
- If you follow the GT anime canon, he had to have died. Otherwise, Vegeta couldn't have killed him again during the Super 17 saga.
- The Namekian villagers that Vegeta killed didn't even come back with that wish. And since he keeps telling us that there are only two Saiyans left, I think it's safe to say that Nappa is still dead.
- Even if Nappa came back, it wouldn't be for the best. Nappa was paralysed due to his injuries-if he didn't die of exposure, the government would've taken him away-possibly involving dissection.
- Nappa does get revived, just like OP said, in Dragonball Abridged.
- It isn't rage; otherwise Vegeta would have done it long, long ago. It's something like freeing your mind, if I remember it right.
- It was overwhelming rage + a pure heart (Vegeta claimed he used pure evil) + sufficient amounts of power. Unless you're over a level of power that Vegeta never approached until late into the Frieza saga, you just can't transform into SSJ.
- But of course Pan was easily that strong (she pwns Dr. Gero/Android 20 in one scene, for example).
- Alternately, possibly Pan really hasn't ever gotten angry enough. For while she has definitely gotten very angry (and had her fair share of despair too), she was never in a situation where she was desperate angry - ie in the back of her mind there was always the possibility that her grandfather or father or uncle, etc would save her.
- Super Saiyan is a super powered evil side. Just being enraged won't cut it. There needs to be some extreme hate.
- Some Fridge Logic, though I'm not sure if it counts in the DBZ universe: Blood. Remember, Pan is only a quarter saiyan.
- Does this mean that Goten had some serious issues he wasn't letting on about?
- His dad is dead, he looks EXACTLY like his dad, and Chi-Chi was training him. Of course he'd be enraged.
- That was the point of Cell torturing the crap out of his friends in front of him: he needed Gohan not just be furious, but to go on a roaring rampage of revenge.
- Goten, not Gohan.
- Does this mean that Goten had some serious issues he wasn't letting on about?
- Women probably can become Super Saiyans but you need to have at least as much Saiyan blood as human blood to go Super Saiyan. That's why Pan never went SSJ, she's only 1/4 Saiyan.
- So why, in the "100 years later" episode, are both Goku Jr (Pan's grandson) and Vegeta Jr (Vegeta's great-great-grandson) able to transform into Super Saiyans?
- Pan can be dealt with by looking at a subsequent WMG - she theoretically 'inherited' (read: stole) the Mystic Powerup from Gohan when she was concieved. This would explain why she never turned Super Saiyan, despite being able to fight on-par with her Super Saiyan 3 Grandpa.
- She also can fight with the golden Super Saiyan ki aura suggesting either she can access Super Saiyan power without a Super Saiyan transformation (as per theory above) OR she can and does change into a Super Saiyan, but female Saiyans don't change their hair color when they transform! Of course the ki aura color thing could just be the GT animation team screwing up.
- Word of God has it that he just couldn't decide on how to draw a female Super Saiyan and left it out. Something about the hair. I'm not seeing it, though
- Repressed trauma? Perhaps he thought that if they weren't so evil, they'd be awesome. And thinking about that, in DBverse, it seems like all TV programs are superhero shows, fighting tournaments, baseball... And the News.
- You forgot aerobics.
- I'll buy this one, since Piccolo also traumatized Gohan pretty bad (to train him in Goku's absence), and notice that the Saiyaman costume has a turban/cape thing going on...
- In Budokai Tenkaichi 3, in the character reference, its implied that, indeed, Gohan was probably thinking of the Ginyu Force when he got the idea, but it also says that he was inspired by them, not traumatized.
- It's possible he thought they were cool, he was only 6 at that point, young enough to still think that tokusatsu was cool.
- Maybe he got into tokusatsu later on, since at the time they were weirding him out.
- It's possible he thought they were cool, he was only 6 at that point, young enough to still think that tokusatsu was cool.
- My personal theory is that the Saiyaman outfit is a tribute of sorts to some of the Z-fighters and clothes from Gohan's past. The green tunic thing is from Bandit Yamcha or could also be from Tien and Chiaotzu, The body suit, boots and gloves resemble those from Saiyan armor, as already mentioned the cape and turban are from Piccolo, and finally the sunglasses are from Master Roshi
- Another possibility; he's emulating campy superheroes to catch up on the childhood that he really never got a chance to have. Seriously, from ages 4 to 11, he did absolutely nothing but fight and train. As an awkward teenager, he's using his real superpowers on Earth to act out the childish fantasies that most boys would have had before but he never got a chance to.
- Now the question becomes: How did he talk Videl into joining the whole Sentai Superhero thing?
- Well, in the movies, she's one of the few (read: 2 or 3) people that think his poses and speeches are actually cool, so maybe she has a secret geeky side she never shows to anyone except him? It would make her character more interesting if they would explore that. Perhaps she's a tokusatsu buff, and knows a LOT more about all the various Super Sentai series than anyone would expect a martial artist to?
- Now the question becomes: How did he talk Videl into joining the whole Sentai Superhero thing?
- If they are related, the divergence must have been much, much farther in the past than the Vulcan-Romulan split, judging by physiological differences. I read somewhere that the Vulcans and Romulans diverged around the time of Christ, and all their differences are cultural, wheres Time Lord-Saiyan differences are in many respects genetic, indicating time for divergent evolution.
- Perhaps the Time Lords banished their more violent members eons ago, before inventing TARDISes, and sent them all to a random planet in space pods, the random planet just happening to be inhabited by Tuffles? This would, of course, imply that Time Lords originally had tails, and it is the Saiyans who are the physically closer to the ancestor species...
- This would imply that Time Lords can go Oozaru at some stage. Maybe Gallifrey has something to do with Blutz waves?
- Perhaps the Time Lords banished their more violent members eons ago, before inventing TARDISes, and sent them all to a random planet in space pods, the random planet just happening to be inhabited by Tuffles? This would, of course, imply that Time Lords originally had tails, and it is the Saiyans who are the physically closer to the ancestor species...
- Alternately, everyone in Planet Vegeta were Americans. Most of them happen to have vegetable names in English, only slightly modified.
- Lol, possible. But Word of God has it that Vegeta was given English moves so as to seem more alien to the Japanese audience.
- Like Americans.
- Okay, seriously, please stop stereotyping us Americans. I hope you don't really believe that, because I am an American, and I certainly don't want to be labeled as arrogant warmonger like so many foreigners seem to do.
- Lol, possible. But Word of God has it that Vegeta was given English moves so as to seem more alien to the Japanese audience.
- He's from Space America, like Jeice is from Space Australia.
- On a related note, this means the heros of the show commited at least one count of genocide, since those saiyans would have then died horrible deaths in the vacuum of space. I say at least one count because I doubt that it was the first time that Frieza destroyed an enemy's entire planet.
- Wasn't the destruction of the Planet Veget well over a year before the wish was made?
- Additionally, this is how Tarble (as well as some of the other Saiyans in the not-quite-canon movies) is both a) still alive despite the "only four Saiyans survived" story and b) why he doesn't look nearly as old as he'd have to be to survive Freeza's Saiyan purge. It works like this: Tarble is sent off planet, probably somewhere between the ages of five and ten. Freeza destroys Vegeta-sei and presumably hunts down most of the off-planet Saiyans including Tarble. Twentysomething years later, the Dragon Balls revive everyone killed by Freeza and his men, including Tarble. Since Tarble is off planet, he survives, learns of Freeza's death, and decides to go native rather than purging the planet for the profit of a dead tyrant. Ten or so years later we see him in the recent special, married to one of the aliens he was assigned to kill.
- Except that Tarble probably had those genes that make people look younger for more time than they should, or is probably Vegeta's half brother through genetic manipulation or something. He probably was a servant of Freeza as well.
- This is impossible. One of the restrictions on Kami's balls was that if you were reviving multiple people who fit into a category, only those who died within the past year are revived. Vegeta blew up twenty-some-odd years ago, and the wish was made on Kami's Dragon Balls, so the Saiyan people were past their expiration date (unless someone wanted to revive them one at a time).
- True, although there's still a good chance that they'd blown up another planet within the last year, as well as the filler bug planet Nappa and Vegeta blew up. This is why, when handling Kami's balls, you must be careful.
- Resurection of F shows that actually yes, people can be brought back even after a year. It's just that their bodies aren't restored at all when it happens (which is why Frieza came back in itty bitty pieces instead of whole like basically every other resurrection shown). So it's possible the Saiyans were brought back, but it would have lasted all of a second at most since their bodies were vaporized.
- Surely I am not the only one who finds their resemblance a little odd.
- This troper also noticed how similar they look. But preferred rather they aren't related.
- They're the same species, but Pilaf is a noseless mutant, like Krillin.
- They're both voiced by Chuck Huber in the English dub
- The Hell you see on the show doesn't look like the one from "Fusion Reborn." Sure they may be connected to each other (since the bad guys escaped from this Hell), but Gaz and Moz's section of Hell is really known as the Home For Infinite Losers.
- The Hell in "Fusion Reborn" was altered by Janemba. In the movie Goku is shown falling into what looked like floating red gelatin, only for the camera to pan to a sign reading "Blood Fountain" showing that it was previously that established landmark. At the end of the movie it all went back to normal. As for the name HFIL, this troper's theory is that the censors just took the word HELL and lopped off the bottom portion of the letters, leaving H F I and lowercase L.
- That's correct. Go watch the uncensored version of the Funimation dub (Remastered). Their shirts read HELL.
- The Hell in "Fusion Reborn" was altered by Janemba. In the movie Goku is shown falling into what looked like floating red gelatin, only for the camera to pan to a sign reading "Blood Fountain" showing that it was previously that established landmark. At the end of the movie it all went back to normal. As for the name HFIL, this troper's theory is that the censors just took the word HELL and lopped off the bottom portion of the letters, leaving H F I and lowercase L.
- Sorry, this isn't WMG, this is canon.
Meanwhile, Pan is running around the universe, beating the crap out of villains that most DBZ characters would have a hard time with... and is even out-performing her grandfather at times. About the only way to explain this is that she somehow 'stole' the powerup from her father when she was concieved.
- I thought something similar. Pan had a golden aura sometimes (might be animation error), and golden auras are usually Super Saiyan ones, or, in Gohan's case (at Buu's Arc), Mystic Saiyan. The Mystic power probably passed down to her, indeed.
- It's never stated in canon that Gohan can never go SSJ again. Although he went Mystic instead of SSJ when asked to, it doesn't say anywhere that SSJ has been overwritten or erased for good.
- As of Battle of Gods, it's outright confirmed that he can still transform if he wants to.
- But what clearly was done to SSJ is it was rendered pointless, due to Gohan having a better (ie. "less taxing") way of accessing his power. This is apparently no longer the case in GT, whereas Pan, as said before, is running around doing things on par with a basic level SSJ .
- It could just be that only Gohan can use his Mystic power. Now, who was in control of Gohan's body during the Baby arc? Certainly not Gohan. Furthermore, it's possible that being under Baby's control basically "broke" the Mystic power-up, either turning it off for good or getting it permanently stuck on a x49 or lower setting; both cases would force him to go back to SSJ transformations. Another possibility is that Baby erased everyone's memory of the Mystic form when he couldn't use it, although this brings up a question of why Goku never mentioned it, since he wasn't controlled by Baby at any point.
- Interesting, and entirely possible! That would explain why Krillin pulled far ahead of the other humans after the Namek saga.
- Now that I think of it, if Lamarck Was Right biology applies to the Dragon Ball universe, than young Trunks and Goten should've easy surpass their fathers, and maybe Vegito for that matter, if they put any serious effort into training.
- You mean the divine water he drank before his fight with King Piccolo? Because the 'divine water' in Korin's tower was just ordinary water.
- Right, that 'Divine Water', the one that's potentially fatal. Not the ordinary water that Korin normally guards.
- All the kami water did is give him a power boost. The reason why Kakarot was able to easily surpass Vegeta is because he had more battle smarts. Even though Vegeta trained more and violently then Kakarot, Goku trained smarter and more efficiently than him. A good example of this is when Vegeta was on Namek getting his face pounded in and Goku was training in 100x gravity, who do you think suffered more Goku or Vegeta, I believe that one's so easy it doesn't need to be answered because we all know the answer, but answer this to your self who came out stronger. Goku's training was no walk in the park either but he did it at a steady pace or at least steady for him since we all know how energetic Goku is. Oh yeah do you remember when Kakarot came out of the hyperbolic time chamber stronger than Vegeta (because he mastered the Full Power SSJ instead of the Ascended SSJ form) because he recieved better training than him and it was because he trained (worked on his strength and speed) instead of torturing himself.
- Plus it's actually stated that King Chappa has won the tournament at least once before Goku showed up.
- It also supports the post above about how Mr. Satan had a child that looked nothing like him.
- Mr. Satan's actually the same age as Krillin; Chappa's twenty years their senior.
- Except this theory buckles when you look at how Kakarot was sent to Earth to conquer it. His being sent to Earth seemed like a routine mission, not some attempt to cover up a planet of genetic abominations.
- Also, Saiyans aren't a civilized race, they probably didn't even know space existed until Frieza found them.
- It could be something in the sun, or in the moon.
- Earth does have an unnaturally large moon relative to other planets. Raditz even comments on this in Dragon Ball Z Kai. Perhaps the large size emits enough "flux waves" to increase Saiyan power even if their tails are missing. This is assuming the moon was wished back after Piccolo blew it up.
- So…if Batman ever got selfish…The DCU would become something akin to a Hell on Earth? Honestly…I believe you.
Future Bulma's time machine (calling it this for the moment) lets Future Trunks travel back in time to warn Goku and everyone else about the Androids coming up in three years - not to mention the heart virus that will kill Goku. This in itself makes some sense with time travel, although Trunks seems to acknowledge that it will make an alternate timeline rather than change the future when he leaves for home.
Cue three years later, Trunks returns. Now, if this was really a time machine he had, Future Trunks would have traveled back to the exact same day that the Androids showed up, with Goku long dead and the other fighters being slowly wiped out. He has no way to logically travel down the timeline he created!note And that's assuming Trunks was able to return to his timeline in the first place! After all, if we use Back to the Future theory, Trunks just made himself an alternate 1985 where Goku's still alive, the Androids and Cell are gone and Biff rules Hill Val... right. You get the idea.
So, really, the only way for this to make any sense is for "Future" Trunks and Bulma to believe that this is a time machine, while Bulma (obviously distracted by the world ending around her) wound up crossing some wires somewhere. Thus, instead of time travel, she really breached the walls between dimensions. This is how Trunks can keep visiting the other 'timeline' he created, without being stranded in a future he accidentally made.
This also has the side-effect of making Cell a trans-dimensional threat, which changes very little in terms of how things play out.note The Cell that tormented the cast for most of the plot arc is a Cell from an alternate universe where the Androids slaughtered nearly everyone, but Trunks barely won a final fight with them. The Cell that Krillin and "Future" Trunks destroy while sitting in his fetus form is the Cell of this world, a Cell who will now never come to be. Finally, the Cell killed by Future Trunks in the epilogue is a Cell from a similar world to that of the Cell Gohan killed, but one who came into a world nowhere near as decimated thanks to Trunks killing the Androids much sooner because of his vastly increased strength earned from his time in our reality.
So! To sum up?
Trunks traveled through dimensions, not time, which is why he was able to come back for return visits and still avoided screwing up his own timeline. There were three versions of Cell because of this, but this changes nothing and helps further explain why DBZ "time travel" is so screwed up anyhow.note
Am I insane, or does this actually make sense?
- I'm with you, this guy is a genius!
- You're not insane, just wrong. Trunks did travel through time the first time, but in affecting the past, he automatically created a new dimension. There is no way for Trunks to travel back to his own past timeline, because in that past time line Trunks did not travel into the past. Because if he had, then that future wouldn't exist. Make sense?
- Actually, its canon that any time-travel they commit also is interdimensional travel as well, since Trunks notes that there are several things in the main Z timeline that are different from his own (like their Androids being ridiculously stronger than his own or Goku falling from his disease at a different time).
- Precisely. There is no way to travel into your own timeline, so in that sense only interdimensional travel is possible.
- Actually, its canon that any time-travel they commit also is interdimensional travel as well, since Trunks notes that there are several things in the main Z timeline that are different from his own (like their Androids being ridiculously stronger than his own or Goku falling from his disease at a different time).
But in Akira Toriyama's defense its an interesting idea to try to come up with a "Next Generation" a bit more gradually. Cause often enough when a franchise tries to use that idea we get a bunch of new characters that come out of nowhere, in which we might not even be certain if we are in the same continuity anymore. (But its generally due to the story having a time skip when that happens though how much of a time skip can often vary.) The story would often like to claim that these characters would have any connection to any previously established character, even though the story never actually mentioned their existence until now. Akira tried to avert this by getting Gohan to one day take over his father's role gradually. But sadly DBZ is probably quite the example on how that kind of idea can go wrong. So in other words Akira might have succeeded in truly getting Gohan to truly take over his father's position as Earth's Main Defender if he did it right from the start.
- Word of God says, mostly, yeah. Executive Meddling and negative fan reaction (the Japanese really REALLY like Goku) forced him to keep bringing Goku back time and time again.
- In support of this is the fact that while Goku in DB was a legitimate Kid Hero who saved the world many times over, adult Goku in DBZ was actually not much of a big hero (and even in some ways a subversion of the hero concept). Consider: he didn't save the world from Raditz alone (enter Piccolo), he didn't save the world from Vegeta and Nappa alone (enter Vegeta's own Bad Bossness, Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe), he didn't save Namek from Freeza (no one did), he actually endangered Earth by provoking Freeza, and he didn't protect Earth from Freeza afterwards (Mirai Trunks did), he didn't save the world from the Androids (turned out it didn't need to be done, or maybe Krillin did by showing enough compassion to No.18 to prevent them from going evil), he didn't save the world from Cell (unless guiding Gohan to it counts), he had a chance to save the world from Fat Buu and didn't do it (Mr. Satan did by befriending Buu), his plan to save the world from Super Buu by teaching fusion to Goten and Trunks failed miserably (failed to take into account that the kids weren't emotionally mature enough to pull it off), and his contribution to stopping Kid Buu was as part of a team effort (along with Mr. Satan, Vegeta, and the entire population of the earth).
- Fascinating, I'd never thought of it that way before. So the only time he truly saved the world all by himself was when he beat Piccolo Daimaou all those years ago. All part of the Shonen Jump mantra of "friendship and effort" or whatever, I guess.
- Both are pink.
- Both are stretchy and can partly shapeshift.
- Both can eat much more than seemingly possible.
- Both can take the appearance and powers of people they eat.
- Going by this theory, that means Bibidi is a…ah, screw it. That's one time that meme won't apply here, cause time has nothing to do with it.
- Alternatively, Bibidi managed to bridge the dimensional gaps to Popstar and got Kirby's DNA. He gave it a new form through his own magical abilities, and likely used samples from Dark Matter in order to ensure Kid Buu would be a total psychopath.
- Maybe it's the opposite-Kirby is a fragment of Buu that somehow escaped.
- Not too strange actually; Toriyama claims that Muscle Tower is based on the video game Kung Fu.
- Perhaps supporting this, the SSJ3 transformation results in more prominent browridges and a slightly more sloped forehead, which are features reminiscent of earlier hominid ancestors of humans - ie halfway back to transforming into an ape.
- In the anime I think
- I like to think that the announcer in Dragon Ball is Captain Ginyu.
What have the Saiyans not had that the DBZ Saiyans and Half-Saiyans had in droves? Human associates. Human associates that taught them (and other alien characters) to repress emotion until it bursts out of their ears like steam, have violent outbursts at any expression of their species' traditional pastimes (and then switch completely to encourage this in a younger sibling), let illogical sequences of thought and action slide as long as they sound okay, shoot dogs for fun and lack of profit, and (though this is usually the tipping point after years of buildup of the Human Bastardry) watch their weak human friends die like flies. Saiyans just kill things for food, release of aggression, money and at least sometimes honor, which humans do all the time plus those other things. The only beings in the series that are worse than the average human mercenary (on a wider scale) are the Card Carrying Villains that originate from Earth or other dimensions anyway.
Therefore, DBZ humans are the most evil, loony species in existence (at least on average, since some humans are only evil or loony), and bring out the worst in even Saiyans.
- Except most of the humans in the series weren't that bad.
- And who's saying that?
- You underestimated Goten and Trunks. We see Goten become a Super Sayan at 7 (almost half his older brother's age when he first did it and around 1/3 or possibly 1/4 of his father's). Trunks did it a 8 (around 1/4 of his father's age when he first did it). This is assuming they'd just did it within that year. Then, shortly after Goku first became SSJ3, They did the same (though they were fused, do it may not count completely).
- This is actually widely believed by fans, and is pretty much fanon / almost canon. However, if you follow the GT canon, Ginyu gets sent to Hell and is reunited with his recognizable purple body. This could just be for the viewers' sake, or in GT he really was the purple guy. However, if you don't follow GT, the above theory looks very acceptable.
- Alternatively, the purple guy who came from Hell in GT was actually the frog in Ginyu's old body?
- What did the frog do to deserve being in Hell?
- In Budokai Tenkaichi 3, it says that Ginyu was originally the same race as Jeice and Sauzer.
- Alternatively, the purple guy who came from Hell in GT was actually the frog in Ginyu's old body?
- It's hinted that she's capable enough of carrying her own shopping bags without any effort, but she doesn't want to look manly doing so.
- Vegeta doesn't think much of women. I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't bother to train her.
- He doesn't care about most women, but he DOES care about his daughter. He probably at least taught her self-defense.
- Also, the fight with #18 completely dispels the notion that Vegeta doesn't know that combat-capable women exist. Not only did he fight her as a Super Saiyan, refusing to go easy on her because of her gender, she kicked him around anyway. Bra may not be a cyborg, but she's something even better in his eyes: a Saiyan princess. He would make sure she knows self-defense.
- The old Daikaioushin seems to certainly be male and non-neutered, if his Roshi-esque antics are anything to go by. Similarly, Buu is pretty magical and shown the hots for at least one girl, although its questionable that there's anything underneath his pants...
- Going by Dragon Ball Online, Buu created a wife for himself, in order to create the majin race.
- The old Daikaioushin accidently fused with a witch at one point, granting him unique powers.
- So, a male Ayeka, huh? Wow, that explains everything.
- Seriously, why else did his hair randomly turn red?
- Unlike the others, SSJ4 has no standard hair color. you'll notice Vegeta's hair is also a different color in SSJ4.
- Does black and brown make red?
- Cell wasn't even trying, and Kid Buu was being mentally held back by Fat Buu. He's more like the strongest roach alive. He might be able to surpass Yamcha, if he's lucky.
- If Hercule were so powerful then he would have learned Ki Control as a mater of course.
- Jossed by genetics. If this theory were valid, she'd be a boy.
- Not necessarily. There ARE female Saiyans, so their genetics have to be close enough that you can derive either a male or a female.
- Gohan has his X chromossome from Chichi and his Y chromossome from Goku (there's no ohter way around). He passes his X (Chichi's) chromossome to Pan and so does Videl, hence Pan is a girl. Since Gohan's X's chromossome is entirely human, we could either assume that a female born from Gohan is less Saiyan than a male son.
- Except you're confusing sex-linked traits, carried on the sex chromosomes (the X and Y chromosomes), with with traits carried on the autosomes (all the other chromosomes). Species is not a sex-linked trait, it's the result of a specific combination of genes on a specific arrangement of chromosomes that an organism has. There might be Saiyan-specific genes that are carried on the Y chromosome that Pan wouldn't have inherited (that female full Saiyans also wouldn't have), but that doesn't mean she has any less Saiyan DNA than a hypothetical son of Gohan's. An offspring's always going to get half of each parents' DNA (Except in the case of nondisjunction, in which case the offspring would either not end up being viable and getting miscarried or, if they were born, would probably have many serious medical issues.). The only way for Pan to have been half Saiyan would be if Gohan and Videl decided to make a designer baby and add another quarter set of Saiyan DNA from another Saiyan.
- We can't joss this simply because Pan is a girl - since prior to Gohan, as far as we knew, there had been no Half Saiyan Hybrids. It could be that the Saiyan genes get passed down regardless of gender; hence the reason why even though Goku Jr. is even less Saiyan than Pan (Pan should be 1/4th, since Gohan was 1/2, and Videl was 100% human, so unless Pan or one of her descendants hooked up with a Saiyan who somehow survived Freeza exterminating the Saiyans, Goku Jr. would, at most, be 1/64th Saiyan), he still possesses the ability to go Super Saiyan.
- Not necessarily. There ARE female Saiyans, so their genetics have to be close enough that you can derive either a male or a female.
- But he heals completely! It probably takes way longer than that to learn a sixth sense, even if you sorta need it. And even if he did learn, wouldn't he just forget it after his eye heals?
- Well, yes, but Vegeta's very gifted. He could've noticed that it could be done, and when he lost sight in one figured out how to do it. From what we see on Namek, Vegeta did learn it, this just seems the best reason.
- It's strongly implied in the anime that Vegeta learned to sense ki during his Beam-O-War with Goku's Kamehameha due to the visuals being depicted when Vegeta is telling Dodoria about it on Namek. Also makes a lot of sense when Vegeta later jumps over Krillin's Kienzan; by that point, he knew how to sense ki. The only reason he couldn't sense Yajirobe was his power was so low.
- According to a WMG below saiyans have sharigan and this could be what helped him to learn to since energy, or perhaps it was the creators' way of moving the story along.
- This troper thought the same thing. But the Demon World is often viewed a horrific place. It could mean that 1) Dabura pretended to be an evil while among the other demons or 2) these demons are not that evil and prefer to be left alone until Babidi came along.
- Neither Shula, nor Count Lucifer looked like they were nice. It's more likely Dabura was just as dickish as they were (though MUCH more powerful and higher ranking), and becoming nice was a side effect of prolonged exposure to heaven.
- I thought it was more that they sent him to heaven instead because hell would've been a reward instead of a punishment, only he went native.
- The Heroes/Online/Xenoverse portrayals of Demon World's powerful inhabitants don't exactly lend to the theory that they're misunderstood-but-nice people. That said, Dabura's Affably Evil demeanor even without the heaven thing hints that he did maintain a sense of honor. He may be a king of evil, but he's still a king, and damnit, there's a dignity that comes with that. Besides, projecting strength and valor to your underlings is a good way to inspire loyalty. Not every Evil Overlord's gotta be like Freeza. There's a reason Towa tries to avenge his death in Xenoverse and even revives him with full autonomy in Heroes despite her own ambitious nature, after all.
- Raditz was killed by Piccolo, not Goku, who had nothing to do at all with Frieza, and it had been more than 1 year after his death so he wouldn't have been revived anyway. Natch.
- Piccolo’s full five-minute charged Special Beam Cannon is enough to kill even a Super Saiyan, the attack is never used again in the series because it takes a ridiculous amount of time to produce.
- Nice try, Raditz.
- So, you're saying Raditz is a masochist, who just coincidentally happens to have the Zenkai racial trait, which is why he goes around looking for people to beat him to death so he gets stronger? You have a very strange mind.
- I bet that the reason he's so weak is because of the exact opposite of this theory: he's picked on weaklings so much he hasn't gotten the faintest of zenkai boosts or proper training.
- Saiyans are barbaric, & Nameks are peaceful
- Saiyans are always hungry for power, & Nameks have a source of unbelievable power (Dragon Balls) at their fingertips, but only use them in case of an emergency
- Saiyans are super powerful humanoid aliens, & Nameks are stereotypical green telekinetic aliens.
- It can safely be assumed that all Saiyan tech comes from Frieza's army, but the Nameks can create spacecrafts that can travel an entire galaxy in a month (although it is possible that they wished for these materials from Porunga [kami/piccolo was from the dragon clan, after all])
- Saiyans transform into giant monkeys, while Nameks have the ability to grow giant.
- Saiyans are Big Eaters while Namekians don't need to eat
- Also supporting this theory: Saiyans possess the ability to breed with other races that are at least somewhat humanlike, whereas Namekians multiply via asexual reproduction.
- I love how you felt you needed to point out that blowing up the planet isn't a good thing.
- Nope, the planet was named after Vegeta's father after he led the Saiyans to victory in the Saiyan-Tuffle war.
- I think there was some throwaway scene in the anime where Vegeta recalled something which he referred to as a 'Super Saiyan,' although it more strongly resembled a golden Oozaru. Perhaps his dad?
- He's Chaotic Neutral
- He's a loner
- He has a scruffy, lupine look to him
- He spends his early years Walking the Earth
- He's drenched in Animal Stereotypes
- His ultimate attack is the Wolf Fang Fist.
- We never see him transform because Our Werewolves Are Different.
- Except Jackie Chun fights a werewolf in one of the Tournaments and it's made clear that Their Werewolves Are Not Different.
- Our Werewolves Are Different but in a different way
- Jackie fought a werehuman; a wolfman that transforms into a human during the full moon. Anyway, Yamcha couldn't be a werewolf, otherwise he would've transformed the first time Goku transformed.
- Except Jackie Chun fights a werewolf in one of the Tournaments and it's made clear that Their Werewolves Are Not Different.
- Where does it show Ranfan married to someone named Trunks?
- In the Dragon Ball Bouken Special manga guide published by Shueisha in 1987. See here for more info.
- Damn you! I just thought of that same theory and pulled up this page so I could post it, only to find it at the very bottom of the page...
- Alternately, she's from the same civilization seen on Planet Plant in Episode of Bardock. Although, this does raise the question of how they escaped everything that happened in that world…
- Its particuly telling in "Yo, Son Goku And His Friends Return", pretty much everyone shows up but Tien and Chaotzu.
- Actually, they stop showing up because Tien and Chiaotzu are loners by nature. Tien told everyone on Dende's Lookout after the defeat of Cell that they'd probably never see him again, and only showed up again temporarily in the Buu Saga to help Goku.
- They actually did appear in the side-manga Yo! Son Goku... was based on, but they didn't show up in the anime special because Tien's voice actor died two years before.
- He never fought Gotenks, did he? I remember him defending himself against Goten and Trunks for a couple of seconds, and that was filler.
Super Buu (With Gohan, Goten, Trunks and Piccolo),Kid Buu,Super Buu (with Gotenks and Piccolo),Super Buu,Old Buu,Fat Buu,
- This troper says kid Buu is and always will be the strongest Buu. What is more dangerous than a kid full of temper tantrums, and a power level that surely exceeds millions. Every thing he absorbs, dilutes the unstable kid within him, and if it's something good, it mixes the emotions and feelings with his own, except being so purely evil he does not get affected much by the minor feeling of every single individual.
- Doesn't mean he can't have a lower power level than any other form of Buu, though. Maybe the idea is his pure lack of restraint more than makes up for any actual deficiency in power potential compared to the other Buus.
- That seems to have been the implication. Super Buu (or possibly Fat Buu, but I don't think so) is the most powerful form, but he can actually think rationally (more or less). Kid Buu lacks in power, but is more a personified force of nature than a sentient individual, and just does whatever the hell he wants whenever the hell he wants, and what he wants is to kill you. It's not a decrease in power that made him weaker, but an increase in intelligence to the point where he can actually think about what he wants to do instead of acting on instinct. A feral puppy can be more of a threat than a fully grown tame dog.
- Doesn't mean he can't have a lower power level than any other form of Buu, though. Maybe the idea is his pure lack of restraint more than makes up for any actual deficiency in power potential compared to the other Buus.
- Possibly Kid Buu is Kirby and he absorbed the anti christ thus, mixing Kirby's weak minded goodness, with the evil that is the Antichrist.
- It was specially designed to kill the future androids, and it tore through mecha Freeza like butter, but it didn't work when king cold used it against him, or when he used against goku becuase neither of them had any android parts. the reason it broke on the present androids is because they were just so strong they overpowered it.
- So it was a +10 against metal sword?
- WAY WRONG!!!! Sorry, I meant is this correct based on the Hirudegarn movie, where the sword was given to trunks by that one purple alien, who had it forged to defeat a giant mystical Holocauser.
- Presumably in Future Trunks' timeline Goku used Instant Transmission to teleport back to earth, turned SSJ, and squished Freeza and his father. Now if we add the supposition that Goku's heart virus is alien in origin and he contracted it while in space, perhaps in Yarblat, and consider that turning SSJ seems to accelerate the onset of the disease, then going SSJ to fight Freeza that second time would be the trigger that activated the heart virus, leading to Goku's death. This explains why Goku didn't get the heart disease until much later in the main timeline.
- Now Dr. Gero initially designed the Androids solely for the purpose of revenge against Goku, so how would he most likely react when he gets word of Goku's death from his bug probes? In all likelihood he would reprogram his half-completed Androids as instruments of world domination rather than tools of personal revenge. This would explain why the Androids in Future Trunks' timeline are more evil and indiscriminately destructive.
- Without Goku as a template/goal to aim for during the final two to three years of Android development, Dr. Gero lacked the motivation and/or the combat data to make his Androids stronger, resulting in weaker Androids at the end. Dr. Gero is more confident in his ability to control these weaker Androids (erroneously so, of course), and so he does not shut them down and never makes Android 19.
- This could make sense, but since Goku wouldn't have gotten there for a few hours and I don't see Frieza and his father just staying there where they landed for that long...
- First, Goku knew Instant Transmission. He states he was about to make his move when he sensed Trunks and decided to sit it out. Even if that weren't the case it's hard to know two things, how much stronger Vegeta got in the time gap, it's plausible that between him, Gohan and Picolo that they could have survived maybe not a few hours but who knows. Frieza is also quite sadistic and I can see Frieza choosing not to kill them so he can do it in front of Goku.
- Future Trunks has never seen the Androids in his timeline use their full power. They like to toy with their victims, and they've been toying with him all this time. The only people who have ever seen Future 17 and 18 use their maximum power die soon afterwards. The main timeline Androids, being more honorable and less sadistic, use their full power in their fights.
- Alternately, the Future Androids started out just as strong as the main timeline Androids, but, having destroyed their creator, they have had no maintenance on their cybernetic parts for all this time, and have slowly become weaker as those parts wear down.
- In the original unaltered timeline, the Androids are activated and find themselves unchallenged in terms of power. This sense of absolute power and entitlement corrupts them and they become increasingly evil and chaotic over time.
- In the main story timeline, due to the actions of Cell and the heroes' responses to those activities, the Androids get to experience what it is like to be overpowered, to be hunted, to be terrified. They also (in particular Android 18) get to experience what it is like to have someone else help them, protect them, and support them, in some cases (Krillin and Android 16, for example) unconditionally. This experience gives them insight and empathy into how regular humans would regard them, and that empathy allows them to become good.
- Not quite. The first time everyone fights 17 and 18 is well before Cell first appears, and they're easily overpowered by the Androids. However the Androids spare them in the main timeline, while they killed them in Future Trunks's timeline. This seems to indicate that they're already more benevolent than the ones Trunks battled.
- Although, they were activated in a different time and situation. The androids of the present kill Gero, fight the Z fighters immediately afterwards, then go to find Goku, after which all the life-changing stuff happens. I'm guessing that in the bad timeline, they awaken, find Goku dead, kill a bunch of normal humans and go nuts.
- Not quite. The first time everyone fights 17 and 18 is well before Cell first appears, and they're easily overpowered by the Androids. However the Androids spare them in the main timeline, while they killed them in Future Trunks's timeline. This seems to indicate that they're already more benevolent than the ones Trunks battled.
- How do you separate the personality/character from the soul? New Piccolo knows and cares about Dende, showing that Nail is still alive within him somehow.
- Or he could only unlock what was currently being held back. With Gohan it's clearly cannon that he was fighting beneath his actual strength simply because he didn't believe he could be stronger than Goku in the Cell Saga. The same thing happens again in the Buu saga with Mystic Gohan. The kid just has mental blocks that keep him from fighting at 100%.
1) Ability to copy any technique: It is offically stated that it took Master Roshi fifty years to develop the Kamehameha wave from scratch, after seeing it performed only once, it took Goku minutes to not only learn it but master it to the level he was able to destroy a car - only his small ki level was stopping him from having the capability to destroy a mountain as Roshi had done. Fast forward to the 23rd World Arts Tournament and, despite only ever having seen it performed twice, Goku was able to perfectly mimic Tien's Solar Flare. It should be noted that whilst both Krillin and Yamcha both eventually learn these techniques, its only after being taught by Master Roshi and being taught by Tien respectfully. Later on, Goku learns the Kaioken and the Spirit Bomb from King Kai in a matter of months, which according to the latter, he was the first person to ever achieve this feat - and apparantly the last, given how Piccolo, Yamcha, Tien and Chiaotzu all endured the same training yet were somehow unable to learn these techniques (it's very unlikely he wouldn't have at least attempted it)
2) High Definition Vision: Given the insane speeds Saiyans fight at, as well as repeatedly being shown that they are capable of picking up very minute details, this theory is completely confirmed. One counter-argument however, is that the humans have also been shown to possess the capability to view fights at super speed. But in fact... they really don't. Naruto is capable of seeing things at massive speeds, but the Uchiha will always see things that little bit faster; just like Goku will always see things that little bit faster and clearer than Krillin.
3) Hypnotism: This one is the hardest to prove, and certainly Saiyan eyes have nowhere near the mesmerizing power of the Sharingan. But I believe there is proof that Goku and Vegeta have a very subtle hypnotic ability that they themselves don't realize they possess. Firstly, Goku has always had an unbelieveable ability to convert his enemies into friends - despite usually doing little more than either beating them up or giving them a stern lecture. Yamcha was a cowardly thief, Krillin was an a-hole, Tien was sadistic, Piccolo and Vegeta were world destroying conquerers. All of which became, at the very least, close allies or friends. Then there were all his other friends he aquired thoughout his travels. True, it helps that he is one of the friendliest people in the world; but he was still able to win over entire villages, even if they didn't particularly like him. Secondly there is Vegeta. During his days as a fully fledged Saiyan warrior he never had any time whatsoever for eye contact - he just killed or tortured people, and some of his most passionate haters were Bulma and the Z-Fighters. Come the time skip, where he was living at Capsule Corp enough to look her in the eye... suddenly she was overcome with passion enough to want to conceive a child with him, and every Z-Fighter had forgiven all the terrible things he did apart from Tien (It could be argued that, being a Triclops, he would have a certain immunity to hypnotism, enough to shake off Vegeta. Indeed, by the Buu saga, Tien had apparantly distanced himself from them - able to forgive righteous Goku but not enough to forgive psychotic Vegeta.) By GT, he nearly everyone had grown to respect/love him (Tien still absent) as well as Bulma actually wanting to produce a daughter with him. Remember how Future Bulma and Trunks pretty much thought he was a jerk, whereas present Bulma and Trunks loved him? - they experienced decades longer making eye contact with Vegeta than their future selves ever did.
4) Misc. Evidence: During the initial stages of the Great Ape transformation and beyond, a Saiyans eyes change colour into... Sharingan red. If it wasn't for the lack of Sharingan tomoe encircling the iris Goku, Vegeta and Gohan would have been dead ringers for Uchiha.All in all, proof for the Saiyan Sharingan is irrefutable.
- A Saiyan's iris isn't really emphasized, I believe that you are just another Naruto fanatic and are just making up nonsense to make everyone in the Naruto universe seem like they are part Saiyan. Because we all know that Dragon Ball Z will kill Naruto.
- I've always suspected that the Rasengan is actually the same as Yamcha's technique, the Spirit Ball. It works in a very similar way, and has very similar variations.
- Call me crazy, but maybe Kishimoto saw how all the fighters could learn techniques ridiculously fast and track super speed (although in DBZ they sense it when it's too fast to see), and decided to base the Sharingan on that. It wouldn't be the first thing he based on DBZ, after all.
- Very likely; from a female perspective I have to say thats often how it works in real life. I can honestly say every single one of my boyfriends has been stronger and larger than me; but a loud voice and a little love goes a long way.
- Alternatively, her family did their best to keep her happy to keep the food coming. She is known for her fantastic cooking abilities and saiyans (and half-saiyans) being what they are, consume A LOT of food. If Chi Chi is not kept happy, the food may stop coming which would be a fate worse than death.
- Most times, it wouldn't be so inherently unequal. With application and leverage, many times a size and strength advantage can be alleviated. In Chi-Chi's case, this is impossible, which is sad. Release her, Yamcha or Mister Satan in our world, and they would kick most ass without powering up. Her firstborn flew through a tree unharmed within weeks of his birth. Her younger son achieved a genetic milestone while not yet 10. Most grandmothers don't have their little ones making worldwide flights before kindergarten. While she can be obnoxiously tsundere (The Kai cut of her after the Saiyan arc doubles this), it is her way of keeping from going Super Nutso Level 5.
- Or they may be going for quality, and not quantity. There are fewer children because they want each child to have the most love and attention while growing up.
- They don't have a sex drive. They reproduce asexually.
- In this case I interpreted sex drive as reproductive drive.
- Although that doesn't necessarily mean that they don't have sex. Some all-female species of lizard need sexual stimulation from another lizard to stimulate egg production; maybe sexual stimulation forms an integral part of Namekian reproduction. Oviously, Namekians wouldn't need sexual stimulation to reproduce, as evidenced by Piccolo Daimao's producing his jacked-up mutant offspring by himself, but it might be necessary to produce healthy, normal Namekian children. Piccolo might be a special case since he's Piccolo Daimao's reincarnation and already having a soul thing may be enough to keep him from being a mutant. Maybe sexual stimulation is necessary to properly create baby Namekian souls then and the normal soul keeps them from being mutants? Eh?
- My guess: Guru is a Namekian Queen. He was feed with the arcane Namekian Royal Jelly so he developed his size and power. Without Namekian Royal Jelly, a Namekian is only able to spring off degenerated Namekians like Cymbal, Tambourine and Drum. This theory is backed up on the canon fact that there are different castes. Mostly we see worker Namekians, with a few warriors and a Queen. They also have the wise/magician type, who has some fighting capabilities but mostly rely on their intelligence and powers, like Dende's healing.
- There are only 2 castes of namekians. Warrior and Dragon. There are only 2 Warriors in the entire series. Piccolo Jr. and Nail. All other namekians we ever see are Dragon Clan.
- Namekians are utterly sexless; Dende (at least in the manga) seems to be utterly confused at the concept of "male" and "female". Given that they can seem to reproduce at will, it would likely be a good survival method to culturally limit breeding to just the one in charge at the moment, with no one else being allowed to breed (as in wolf packs, where only the alpha pair is allowed to breed), so as not to overpopulate their world too much. This one is not sure whether or not if the reason for their planet having an environmental collapse was mentioned or not, but even if they don't eat, they may have overpopulated themselves, leading to a disaster. Given that this would have happened in Guru's lifetime, as the last Namekian (that he knew of, The Nameless Namekian already sitting on Earth wondering what to do) this "cultural rule" might be brand new with him. Given how much control they have over the creation of their offspring (as evidenced by Demon-King Piccolo's kids), it wouldn't be hard to make them kind of automatically realize the need for this kind of rule. Dende follows it, because he doesn't see himself as having authority/permission to reproduce, while Piccolo, well, he probably remembers what his previous self spawned. Also, he had Gohan, which might be good enough for any desires of having progeny.
- Or maybe it only affects babies.
- Or the transformation to super saiyan occured through years of saiyan babies getting stronger.
Vegeta said saiyans, after being wounded, come back as strong as whatever wounded them, well maybe the strength is passed down and dormant in every child, making the first saiyan relativly weak compared to the last saiyan. - If Goku got a lobotomy, then by some manner of Saiyan Strength, was revived to the point of not being a vegetable anymore, would he have physcic powers, considering a lobotomy is a surgical interruption of one or more nerve tracts in the frontal lobe of the brain: used in the treatment of intractable mental disorders.
This is mentioned because to come back stronger from a brain ailment would have to be ¿physcic? powers, right?- Goku was able to read Krillin's brain by touching it on Namek. So it's pretty much canon that he already does have psychic powers.
- He also communicated telepathically after being beaten nearly to death by Vegeta and his own Kaio-ken x4, because talking hurt too much. ...Or at least he did in one version, I'm not sure if it's the same in every version.
- Goten first went Super Saiyan when he was sparring with Chichi; and he didn't even realise until she pointed it out. Possibly he was trying to make his mother proud by becoming stronger but he was doing it subconsciously?? That's my guess.
- Wasn't it sorta canon? Like, they had East, West, North and South Kais.
- I thought it was East, West, North and South quadrants of one galaxy.
- They've been referred to as both galaxies and quadrants. "Quad" means "four", of course, so the "quadrants" reference is just as easily applied to the four quadrants of the universe as opposed to just alternate parts of a galaxy.
- This is canon. The Kais watch over a quadrant of their own galaxy, with kais in other galaxies watching their own quadrants. The Kais answer to a Grand Kai, who watches over the whole galaxy. The Supreme Kais watched over different quadrants of the universe and answered to a Grand Supreme Kai before he was devoured by Buu. However, there is only one Other World.
- I thought it was East, West, North and South quadrants of one galaxy.
- This theory is very obsolete and more importantly absurd. Once someone has achieved the SSJ form it becomes encoded in their genetics. That's why Goten was born a hell of a lot stronger than gohan, because Goku was a Super Saiyan at the time. I don't think Goten off all people has a warrior spirit.
- Besides, if this were the case, Goku would've become a Super Saiyan when Tambourine killed Krillin.
- I've always suspected this, given how completely out of character it was. Yamcha's character was always a cross between Goku and Vegeta. He's arrogant, prideful and enjoys training for long periods of time alone, but is also quite kind hearted and genuinely loved his girlfriend. It's just unacceptable to me that Yamcha would sleep around. Also, in the original Dragon Ball Yamcha always was the cunning and pereptive one until he was nerfed by the time by the King Piccolo saga rolled around.
- Wrong, sirs. Yamcha started cheating before future Trunks existed.
- True, Bulma gets upset with Yamcha about his flirting with other city girls in Dragon Ball which leads to her ditching Yamcha and going to search for the dragon balls after the first World Tournament and the beginning of the Red Ribbon Army arc.
- Now, now, I believe things are a bit more complicated than that. I don't think there has been a single instance of Yamcha openly flirting with another girl. And, as Bulma's Mom explained during the Red Ribbon Army arc, Tsundere Bulma got jealous of Yamcha's status as a Chick Magnet. Of all the times they fought and "broke up" we only get to hear Bulma's side of the argument which boils down to insult Yamcha/throw a temper tantrum; without mentioning she's not above laying her eyes on other men (Goku, General Blue, Zarbon). Finally, the only evidence of Yamcha's "infidelity" comes from Future Trunks' testimony. Info which clearly he got from Bulma, who might as well have said that in order to save face.
- The only time I can ever remember someone accusing Yamcha of cheating was a pre-22nd Budoukai-vaguely-Red-Ribbon-Army-ish episode where a thief or soldier flirts with him, he looks incredibly uncomfortable with it. Bulma misinterprets the entire scene, and refuses to wait for an explanation before going off to adventure with Goku. Yamcha is cocky, yes. He's proud, a bit devious in his early appearances, but while I'm not sure I'd say he was deeply in love with Bulma, it's clear the two of them cared about each other, and the whole "Yamcha cheats on Bulma and she runs crying to Vegeta because he's so understanding" scenario has never really rung true. It is a gross disservice to all three characters. It would have been much more believable if it had been written as "Bulma got fed up with Yamcha going off to train all the time and got with Vegeta because, hey, he stays close to home and he's not all bad." And furthermore, it's also just... not very like Toriyama. It actually sounds really out of place in a series like Dragon Ball.
- To add to the immediately above, Bulma and Yamcha just had frictiony personalities anyway, and would likely be the sort of couple that would just not get along after so long; also there's the matter of Yamcha being something of an underachiever, which is something which would bother Bulma. Perhaps Yamcha showed interest in another girl (whether misinterpreted or not), giving Bulma an excuse to dump his sorry ass. Then along comes Vegeta, who is now staying at her house (despite the fact that the first time they met, he [i]threatened to kill her[/i] - but in the anime, he came off as pretty pathetic when he came back to Earth after dealing with Freeza's forces. In fact, he came off as a stray. They would have eventually gravitated to one another, eventually. Bulma already thought he was cute (and discovered he was a prince); as for Vegeta, Saiyans _are_ at least semi-social creatures. They seem to do fine on their own, but appreciate and perhaps prefer company.
- Bulma has a confrontational personality with EVERYONE, not just Yamcha. Yamcha and Bulma dated and were each other's first loves, yes, but she is also egotistical, self-centered, and hypocritical. Though they dated for years and were likely committed when together neither was exactly mature enough to shoulder the responsibility of an adult relationship. It's not unlikely that both saw other people during the "off" phase of their on-again/off-again relationship. It's just during one phase of separation Bulma had a one-night stand or ongoing fling with Vegeta that resulted in Trunks.
- I've always suspected this, given how completely out of character it was. Yamcha's character was always a cross between Goku and Vegeta. He's arrogant, prideful and enjoys training for long periods of time alone, but is also quite kind hearted and genuinely loved his girlfriend. It's just unacceptable to me that Yamcha would sleep around. Also, in the original Dragon Ball Yamcha always was the cunning and pereptive one until he was nerfed by the time by the King Piccolo saga rolled around.
- Damnit, you beat me to this one. On top of the above, the names fit between the two settings, especially given that Panty is confirmed by Word of God as Bulma's mom's actual name, she's got (roughly) the same hair color, and she's still a flirt even if not to the ridiculous levels of her hypothetical younger self. Brief is secretly rich so that explains how he can afford all the inventions he makes and the fact that he's got his own company, and given what the articles of clothing in question are, their kids (Bulma and Tights) fit into the Panty and Stocking theme as well — Bulma probably taking the Japanese buruma over the English bloomers due to its closer fit to the type-of-underpants theme, not to mention it sounds closer as a romanization, while tights and stockings are both worn on the legs in a similar fashion. The only part that doesn't match up as far as I can see is why or how Briefs went from red hair to more of a light blue.
- I considered the possibility that the saiyans started out as a tribe of humans that loved fighting and got their hands on the dragonballs and wished for the powers that made them into saiyans, but unless the super-saiyan legend was invented out of whole cloth, the timeline doesn't fit, because Vegeta dates the last super-saiyan as having lived long before Kami created Earth's dragonballs.
- Actually in the anime Ginyu is shown on earth now as a leader of a group of frogs in a local pond.
- Gohan does strike me as smarter than his mother, (not that she's stupid or anything) and since it's canon that Goku smacked his head hard enough to completely change his personality... you have a very good point.
- Vegeta did claim that Goku's father was a brilliant scientist. We aren't exactly shown this at any point in the anime or manga, but maybe Bardock did science-y things between planetary conquests.
- Actually, that was just the early Funimation/Ocean dub.
- Goku is actually pretty smart as long as he's not out of his element, the problem is that he's always out of his element, except when he's fighting. He's actually a pretty good tactician, as seen in his fight with Frieza (remember the underwater decoy ki things?). Remember, he had no formal education, and spent a good deal of his childhood on his own. If Chi-Chi homeschooled him, and he agreed to it, it'd solve his main problem just like that.
- I'm gonna actually suggest a bridge between this and the possibility that Gohan's brains come from his mom: Saiyans breeding with other races increases more than just strength, it also increases other attributes, with what attributes get increased depends on what race the Saiyan breeds with (in the case of humans, it's intelligence; maybe perhaps a Saiyan breeding with one of Zangya's race would result in a Saiyan who's both stronger and more charismatic). As for why Goten doesn't have Gohan's intelligence? Simple: Gohan got the brains of the family.
- As described by Sensui it takes years of dedication to gain this power, something that Vegeta classifies for as he tried to attain it since he was a kid, but it also has to come from a powerful desire to change the world around you. Goku is under the opinion that the trigger for a Super Saiyan transformation comes more from a need than a desire: Goku needed to transform against Frieza in order to be powerful enough to defeat him, and to protect Gohan and Piccolo. Vegeta needed to transform to save his life from being ended on that planet being bombarded by asteroids. Gohan needed to transform out of a need to save his loved ones, a need that even went so far to lead to his Super Saiyan 2 transformation. That powerful need is what activates the Super Saiyan transformation because only Sacred Energy has the power to meet that need that you so desperately need to meet, the criteria of having a desire to change the world around you is met by all of these characters.
- As noted by Vegeta during his fight with Goku the Saiyans had reached an echelon of power that even the greatest overseers of the universe, namely the Kais, couldn't have possibly foreseen. With that in mind it seems highly unlikely that some genetic fluke gave the Saiyans the power to transform into Great Apes, become stronger through near-death experiences, and reach the Super Saiyan transformation that increased their power dramatically to the point that the Super Saiyans of legend were, "an invincible warrior race", and "the strongest warriors in the universe", according to Vegeta. There had to have been some supernatural entity that either created the Saiyans or enhanced them with those characteristics long ago, because you would think millions of years of evolution would have given the Kais something even greater if it really were a freak accident.
- Although Vegeta is not the most reliable of narrators where Saiyans are concerned.
Well, it makes sense if you consider the following statements.
- "The stronger the enemy, the stronger we become.""When brought back to life from the brink of death, our battle prowess multiplies exponentially.""You Saiyans are a warrior race at heart, yes? You love battle above all else!! The stroner the opponent, the greater the joy."
Now, let's take a look at Johnny.
- He was basically a glorified shopping mall cop. Then along came terrorist veterans of the fiercest battlefields of 1980's Earth.
- He was absolutely shredded into a bloody mess by these bastards, barely coming out in one piece after each confrontation.
- And yet he not only (barely) survived, but DEFEATED all of them.
- He was absolutely shredded into a bloody mess by these bastards, barely coming out in one piece after each confrontation.
- 3 years later, the hero of Nakatomi Towers is able to dispatch multiple veterans of the Persian Gulf War completely unscathed. It takes a master Martial Artist like Colonel Stuart to actually bring him down, and even then only barely.
- Another 3 years later: FIVE Veteran soldiers + Jonnny in an elevator = 5 Dead Veteran Soldiers and one PERFECTLY FINE Johnny.
- FIFTEEN years later? Kills a helicopter bristling with heavy-artillery by ramming a car into it.
Johnny faces progressively stronger opponents, gets shredded into pieces each time, somehow comes back alive and is stronger afterwards.
Just in time to face the next EVEN MORE powerful opponent.
And as his Saiyan nature awakens by Die Harder the ONLY times he's shown to be happy is when he is in battle brutally killing enemies: He is otherwise bitter angry and morose ALL the time, like Vegeta or ANY Saiyan who is deprived of a strong enemy to fight for extended periods of time.
- Elder Kai claims to have encountered a Super Saiyan 4 at one point in the past when he sees Goku in that form, a Super Saiyan 4 can only be attained if one gains control of the Golden Great Ape form, and the only Super Saiyan mentioned to have maintained his Super Saiyan power in the Great Ape form was the Super Saiyan of Legend spoken of by Vegeta when he witnesses Goku fight the Ginyu Force. This implies that the Super Saiyan 4 transformation was attained by the Original Super Saiyan and that Elder Kai was the one who knew him before his demise. Anyone with that level of power would be accurately described as the most powerful warrior in the universe, a characteristic that Vegeta gives to the Saiyan in question.
Their internal power sources had just weakened, causing a drop in strength. In fact, it was probably intentional. Cell was weaker than the mainline 17 and 18, and was only able to beat them after he had absorbed several thousand humans. Humans that probably wouldn't exist in the future when he was scheduled to wake up in a scenario where 17 and 18 win. Why would Dr. Gero create an 'ultimate android' that was too weak to overpower 17 and 18 and achieve his perfect form? He designed their powers to decrease as time went on, so they'd be strong enough to survive but too weak to beat Cell once he awoke.
- Doubtful. One of their features is an infinite power source. Judging Cell vs mainline 17 and 18 isn't fair to cell, the reason he had to absorb people was because he had to transform back into his larval form. We know from his story that the reason he came back is because HIS Trunks had killed his androids and we also know he killed his Trunks. The only problem being we don't know if that Trunks killed them via training or killed them via getting his hands on the off switch.
- Or, Vegeta just never got laid because he was so freaking uptight and channeled his frustration into mass-murder instead.
- There is little to no evidence of him being a virgin prior to Namek. The idea that his anger issues stemming from sexual frustration doesn't work either because his personally didn't change at all after being with Bulma and having Trunks in the Android/Cell arc.
- I heard a theory that he was deflowered by Bulma while unconscious, while he was in that hospital; I believe it's said at some point that Bulma often visited him there?
- Personally I take Team Four Star's explanation for where Trunks came from as canon. Let's face it, even if it wasn't completely hilarious it would still fit their characterization at the time.
- The Saiyans are a Bizarro Universe counterpart to the Kryptonians. Both are dead races, and both have someone to blame for that(Brainiac is implied to have caused the destruction of Krypton, and Frieza exterminated Planet Vegeta). However the Kryptonians are cold and logical, while Saiyans are passionate and prideful. Goku is the Bizarro Universe version of Superman-both heroes, but Goku is chaotic where Clark is lawful. While Kryptonians gain their power from the yellow sun, Saiyans get it from the moon/their inner rage. They're also incredibly powerful. Vegeta is actually Christopher Kent, who was raised to be just like his daddy King Vegeta-a stark contrast to his alternate father, General Zod. Non is Nappa.
- Frieza is the Bizarro Universe counterpart to Mongul-which one, we're unsure. Like the Mongul line, Frieza is bald, stands toe to toe with our heroes and utterly ruthless. The key difference is that Mongul was raised in a warrior environment, while Frieza was raised in an intellectual enviornment. As a result, Frieza has a calm and regal manner. Unlike Mongul, who's basically a Blood Knight that wants to essentially prove himself in the ring by taking over, Frieza sees conquest as a business.
- In the Dragonball Universe, Bruce Wayne didn't lose his parents to a mugger. Without the motivation to become Batman, he focused his playboy antics into wrestling. He become the almighty Mr Satan. Both he and his Badass Normal counterpart Batman are memetic badasses, but Mr Satan is more memetic. Catwoman grew up normally, and eventually married Mr Satan(yes, I'm a Batman/Catwoman shipper)-this led to Dragonball's answer to Helena Wayne: Videl.
- Dr Gero is actually Professor Ivo. Much like Ivo, Gero was interested in immortality and created a being designed to assimilate qualities of the world's most powerful people. In the DCU, it become the android Amazo. Likely due to more time being taken with its development, Amazo's counterpart Cell became much stronger.
- The Namekians are Martians. They survived the cataclysm that befell Mars long ago by migrating to planet Namek. Their differences with the Martians come from many millions of years of evolution and genetic engineering, so it would be easier to survive. At some point, their civilization collapsed, which is why they aren't as advanced as they should be.
- You have a good point, I have some evidence to back up said claims, He dresses very similarly to how Buu does, it is outright stated that he is immortal, which is rare in the DBZ universe, also he is supposed to be a Genie or something, wheras Buu by Word of God is stated to be inspired by a Djinn, which in modern culture has translated to "evil Genie" type spirits, there is also the fact that Mr. Popo has seemingly no trouble fighting people who, generally, should be way above his skill level, and is usually cited as being stronger than he looks, along with the fact that he never takes off that damn turban, bet there is a head tentacle under there.
- Maybe the split wasn't caused by Time Travel, but Goku and Vegeta's battle alone was so epic, it caused weird things to happen to reality itself.
- I'm sorry, but I have to stab you now. That, or get all the Brain Bleach in the multiverse, and just hope it's enough.
- Explain who a nine year old is capable of producing sperm.
- Simple, he's a Saiyan. Besides, real world kids are known to have sex that young, however squicky we think it is.
- OBJECTION! While it is physically possible to have sex before puberty, it is not possible to produce sperm before puberty.
- Simple, he's a Saiyan. Besides, real world kids are known to have sex that young, however squicky we think it is.
- Since when is Vegetto mostly Goku? Hell, his very name comes from a combination of Vegeta and Kakarotto, Goku's birth name that no one other than Vegeta uses.
- Vegeta's actually a very good strategist and analystnote , his main problem is that he's often too arrogant to actually bother with fighting intelligently. As his character page puts it, "the cunning gets turned on when the arrogance gets turned off." Goku's also a good tactician, so Vegito has a double dose of this.
I present this theory to patch up a bit of fridge logic. First of all, Piccolo, Yamcha, Tien and Chaotzu all train with King Kai, yet they never use the Kaioken or Spirit Bomb in canon. The Spirit Bomb at least requires a pure heart (and all four of them were villains at some point), but unless King Kai's just a dick, there's no real reason he shouldn't have taught them the Kaioken, unless, as the theory suggests, it's a Saiyan-only technique. And, after Goku becomes Super Saiyan, he never uses the Kaioken again (save for a Super Kaioken in the Otherworld Tournament filler arc), since it's inferior to the real thing.
- …honestly, this is more Fridge Brilliance than a WMG. I think it's worth putting on there.
- Goku: Gluttony - He loves food and eats so much, he talks about food at inappropriate times, like when he was about to name Gohan as a baby.
- Vegeta: Pride/Envy - His pride has gotten everyone into deep trouble. He is also jealous of Goku because he feels that he is better than him
- Chi-Chi: Wrath - Chi Chi is easily angered by people around her. The littlest provocations causes her to get very angry.
- Master Roshi: Lust - He gropes women and reads magazines that feature naked women.
- Goten and Trunks: Sloth - Most of the time, they would rather sleep than train for serious matters. There were times that they were supposed to be serious, but were acting immature and lazy.
- Everyone was guilty with Greed when it came to the Dragonballs, as everyone overused them so much, that the dark dragon, Black Smoke Shenron, was created in Dragon Ball GT and Goku had to talk about how people shouldn't rely on the Dragonballs so much.
- Also, for the villains:
- Frieza: Greed - Wants to hold onto his empire forever, so he searches for the Dragonballs
- Cell: Pride - He's a Smug Super who was created to best the greatest fighter in the world.
- Broly: Wrath - His being an Omnicidal Maniac is because he's pissed at his terrible childhood. Dr Gero also counts, due to the extreme measures he takes just to get back at Goku.
- Babidi: Sloth - Gets everyone else to do his dirty work for him.
- Buu: Gluttony - He loves candy and eating, even getting power from this.
- If you want to stretch it, Vegeta pre-Heel–Face Turn could be Envy, though Guldo could also fit. None that seem to fill Lust, though (thank God).
- This actually seems supported by a conversation Mr. Satan has with Fat Buu at one point.Mr. Satan: "Why do you run around killing people and destroying our cities?"Buu: "Buu was told to! Bibidi told Buu to kill people. Babidi said to destroy. Buu not know what else Buu can do."
- Well, SSJG Goku was very far above Ultimate Gohan and was not equal to Beerus. Beerus was never using more then 70% of his power.
- Look up the Sigil of Lucifer. See the shape it makes at the bottom. Seem familiar?
- Slight problem: While Goku was able to transform into a Super Saiyan when Goten was conceived, Vegeta didn't turn into a Super Saiyan until after Trunks was conceived.
-No emotional attachments. Goku's key to transformation was the despair from losing Krillin, and how the same would happen to all his friends on Earth and countless other species if he failed. Vegeta's was his desire to surpass Goku. Gohan's was his need to make his dad proud of him. In Saiyan society, this kind of emotional attachment didn't happen. Vegeta didn't give a rat's ass about Nappa, Raditz, and Kakarot early on, despite them being the last of his dead race. Bardock didn't care about his son until he started seeing him in visions, and I'd bet he completely forgot Raditz existed. Saiyans just didn't care enough about anyone but themselves to have a "need" to transform.
- Actually, in the manga Bardock cared of both of them. Then again, he admits he's pretty strange for a Saiyan and guesses it's his wife (a pacifist) rubbing off on him.
-Saiyans hardly ever fought at their own level, thus they hardly ever improved from their fights because of it. They just fly off to planets full of weaker species, genocided their race, laughed at their inferiority and ran off. Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta all lost their composure when they think they might be outmatched. Raditz freaked out, Nappa fought sloppily and Vegeta decided "fuck this planet and everything on it." Weightlifters don't get stronger by lifting the same weight all the time, and gamers don't get better by sticking to easy mode and noob servers. When Vegeta started fighting opponents who were actually threats to him on Namek, he gained power very rapidly.
-The Zenkai, or power boost from recovering from injuries, is hardly ever taken advantage of. Of course, this blends with my previous point of Saiyans never actually fighting people equal to or greater than them. And I highly doubt a Saiyan beat down when genociding a planet would be allowed to heal and gain power from it, either. And when Nappa lied broken at Vegeta's feet, Vegeta killed him, saying that a "crippled Saiyan is a useless Saiyan," and it's likely it was standard practice to execute damaged Saiyans before Frieza blew their planet up. If Nappa somehow recovered from his injuries, (I don't know how effective the PTO's healing tanks are) I'm sure he would get a substantial power boost out of it. Possibly even stronger than Goku was at the time. Minus the Kaio-Ken of course. Even then, Goku's love of challenge and Vegeta's massive pride (they're both kind of idiots, choosing honor over reason whenever possible) kept them from abusing the Zenkai to overcome any problem they had. Except that one time with Frieza. I give Vegeta a pass for that one, though. Frieza's some scary shit.
-Saiyan Hierarchy keeps the "low-class" Saiyans down. Vegeta tells Goku that no amount of training could bring Goku up to Vegeta's level, and he probably beat this into Nappa and Raditz's heads whenever possible. The low-class Saiyans don't have the motivation to train and surpass the elite and nobility, and thus, the elite don't feel any reason to improve themselves to keep the lowly commoners in check. If Nappa and Raditz were to train hard enough to approach Vegeta in terms of power, Vegeta would probably train several times as hard just to keep himself ahead of them. Assuming he doesn't get angry and kill them first. Bardock and his crew pretty much said "lol fuk dat shit" and became much more powerful than their "class" says they should be, with Bardock "rivaling King Vegeta" in terms of power. This of course, is what causes Frieza to see the Saiyan's potential and wipe them out before they became a problem. Smart man, too bad he was too much of a proud dipshit to finish off Vegeta and Goku when he had a chance.
So, tl;dr:-No emotional attachments. No real challenges, and no improving from losing a fight. Hierarchy keeps the low class down, and keeps the royalty from improving as a consequence.
But wait! Why doesn't Goku become super powerful in Dragonball? He obviously has emotional attachments, lost fights and improved all the time, and he didn't let anybody keep him down! Why wasn't he a Super Saiyan by the time he hit puberty? Because he didn't need to. His motivation in the Piccolo saga, for example, was "become strong enough to defeat King Piccolo." And he did. Then it was "become strong enough to defeat the Saiyans," "Become strong enough to defeat Frieza," and so on. It wasn't until late in the series that his motivation was "Become as strong as it was physically possible for him to be, then become more powerful than that." Vegeta had a desire to get revenge on Frieza, sure, but Frieza and his henchmen did a good job at keeping Vegeta down. When Vegeta found out about the Dragonballs, and gained a desire for immortality, that his motivation to defeat Frieza was rekindled, and that's when his power grew. Once Frieza was killed, his sole motivation from then on was "Become strong enough to defeat Kakarot." And with Goku's motivation of "Become as strong as you possibly can, and don't stop ever" is when their power levels grew to the godlike ridiculousness that it did.
In short, Raditz didn't have to be as weak as a Saibaman. He could probably ascend to Super Saiyan just as easily as Goku did if hea had the chance. But the Saiyan's ass-backwards culture and his own inferiority complex kept in check by Vegeta and Frieza kept him from getting any better.
- Interesting theory. It does tie in with Vegeta calling himself the Prince of all Saiyans, but then again, so does being an arrogant prick. No real evidence one way or the other, so it's quite possible.
If they make a sequel to Battle of Gods, there's really only three options as to who the sixth Super Saiyan would be: Pan, which would make GT non-canon once and for all (since Pan never went Super in GT). Bardock, somehow retrieved from Planet Plant in the distant past, or Tarble, the only surviving Saiyan to never go Super (though how he does it is a different matter).
- Or they could build a time/universe machine and double up on Trunks.
- This theory is entirely plausible. His dumb decisions are part naivety, part a desire to go with whichever option is most likely to lead to a badass fight, and part a lack of education. Add in the canon blow to the head as a child, and it all adds up.
- That's actually exactly what the original dub suggest: In the japanese version, she straight up cry about how her son became a delinquent when she discovered how he could become a Super Saiyan. But the western side of the dub made it so that she actually called her child a "monster" in that particular scene, leading a whole generation to believe that Chi-chi is much worse of a mother than she really was.
- Goku probably recognised the three of them but didn't tell anyone, too. After all, they very nearly killed him when he was a kid, so their faces are probably permanently burned into his memory. He didn't say anything because all his enemies end up BFFs or dead, and they were so far below his power level that they could only be a threat if they managed to get their wish. And probably not even then, considering how they already got at least one wish (and probably more, considering how Dende souped Shenron up), and just wasted it.
The androids aren't actually any more evil than they were in the main timeline; the difference was that there was nobody to stop their rampage. Krillin might have been able to talk some sense into 18, but 17 killed him before he got that chance. Ever since, they've been having their way with humanity that had already been nearly wiped out by a pandemic. Their casualty figure wasn't all that large, but humanity could ill-afford the losses after the heart virus pandemic. Trunks blames everything on the androids because they're basically the Boogie Man to him- they killed his father when he was a baby, they killed his mentor, and they are continuing to terrorize the planet with their senseless violence.
...Of course, even if this isn't true in-universe, it is out-of-universe. They didn't grow, quite simply, because the artists and animators didn't have an answer to that question and/or didn't want to have to redraw all three characters. Even if it doesn't have this effect in-universe, the Fusion Dance has stunted their growth by giving the staff Gotenks to play with.
(Note that this only applies to the BotG universe. It's clear that no such limitation exists in the GT universe, and it obviously doesn't apply in Future Trunks' timeline because Goten was never born there.)
- Jossed by Jaco the Galactic Patrolman: when the title character describes the Saiyans, he also states they have very long childhoods until a growth spurt brings them to adulthood.
Corollary: Frieza's species is based on bunny rabbits, and he actually ATE all the other Saiyans. He kept Raditz around as a snack, and none of the other Saiyans remember it properly because, let's face it, the thought of a galactic conqueror eating your whole race one at a time, and then blowing up the planet, is a lot more horrifying and traumatising than him just blowing up the planet.
And the fact that there is a Future Videl would mean that there would be a Future Pan.
Future Gohan died in the year 780. Pan was born in 779, so she could’ve been born in the alternate timeline as well. It would make sense that Future Gohan would have some form of companionship other than Future Trunks. He may have met Future Videl under different circumstances than in the main timeline, and it would not appear that any relationship he had with Future Videl would have been long term. Maybe Future Gohan couldn’t allow himself to remain with Future Videl because of his life’s goal to kill the Androids, and also he probably wanted to avoid staying with her out of her own safety. So he broke things off with Future Videl for her own safety and so he could focus on training Future Trunks…while probably not aware she was pregnant.
This would also make sense as to why Future Videl is nowhere to be seen in Another Road, despite her strong sense of justice and being a skilled fighter even before meeting Gohan. By the time of that game Future Pan would still be a very young child, and so Future Videl would want to protect her daughter and what she believed to be the last living thing of Future Gohan. Videl also spent most of her life believing that her skills were inferior to her father’s (though she wised up to the truth in the main timeline), so she probably thought Future Mr. Satan could handle everything. So she stayed out of the fight for Future Pan’s sake.
Future Gohan spent his whole afterlife in Heaven reliving his murder over and over again because he couldn’t let go of the rage over his death, so it’s not so far-fetched to think that he doesn’t know he’s a father (and why he didn’t bring up his fatherhood to any of the main characters in Another Road). And because his best friend was a teenaged boy, it would also make sense he wouldn’t divulge details about his personal life to Future Trunks.
Just based on the fact that there’s a Future Mr. Satan, and Pan was born early enough for Future Gohan and Future Videl to conceive her, it’s entirely possible that the two do exist, and Future Gohan had a far bigger family waiting for him after he came back to life.
For extra bonus points, one could even speculate that the Tuffles, during the initial stages of their project, discovered that their own genetics were ill-suited to the kind of modifications they were attempting. So they started trying to use alien genetics, and eventually found success with some samples from a group of aliens who looked conveniently Tuffle-ish and lived on a far-flung little blue planet way out in the middle of nowhere...
- Which would explain the genetic compatibility of Saiyans and Humans.
- By extension, Trunks and Pan could also hook up for the same reason.
- If they could derive metabolic energy from nuclear fusion, then they wouldn't need to eat to obtain energy at all; water would suffice for fuel, and it would work better than food.
- Then maybe Saiyans and humans are just less efficient at it? At the very least, you've added support to the idea that if not everyone, Piccolo at least has a nuclear metabolism.
- I've always wondered why Saiyan hair turns yellow during super saiyan transformations. I then remembered something about surpassing a characters bodily limits.
So my thought is this, the hair sticks up straight during SSJ to maximize surface area, while the hair doesn't change pigmentation in and of itself, but has it's own independent (yellow) aura of energy (Ki) bleed. All this is to prevent the overflow of Ki from destroying a Saiyans body for the duration of the transformation. This also explains the variation in hair colour depending on how much power is being used, and Why SSJ 3 grows more hair (and why it's so wasteful, it literally wastes a significant portion of the users Ki).
This doesn't explain the SSJ 4, however, nor the Oozaru, although the latter could be explained as the result of an entirely unrelated transformation that is also built into the Saiyans.
- Given that a pure Saiyan's hair never changes except when they transform, their hair clearly isn't just made of dead skin cells like human hair. There could be something to your theory.
- I've seen this idea posited before, that Super Saiyan God is a form that "inducts" a Saiyan into an entirely new sublime tier of power as opposed to being just another exponential powerup by itself. And the truth is, it actually seems to be backed up not only by the differences in Goku's fights with Beerus in the movie from before and after he became a Super Saiyan God, but Vegeta's outburst of rage over Beerus hitting Bulma. With that moment, Vegeta was the first character to deal Beerus knockdown damage in the movie (and quite possibly the first character not named Whis who ever did that to Beerus), and even got Master Roshi remarking that for those few seconds he had finally surpassed Goku. And if you watch the scene carefully, there was a slight red aura covering Vegeta's body in that moment which was not seen at any other point in the film. It's entirely likely that his rage at Beerus for hitting Bulma and his powerful need to shake off his fear of the God of Destruction to avenge this foul allowed Vegeta to subconsciously tap into the God tier of power.
- As a followup to this, Super Saiyan Blue has no actual connection to Super Saiyan God beyond both forms' use of godly ki. The former is achieved when a Saiyan transforms into a Super Saiyan by using godly ki instead of normal ki, thus turning him into a mortal with godly ki (and explaining why it's so damn stressful on the body; it's doubtful that mortals are supposed to be able to "wrap" themselves in the power of a god); while the latter actually turns the Saiyan into a full-fledged god.
- A couple problems with this theory. First the gods in Dragonball are lightweights by most standards. Vegeta at the time that he entered the story is more powerful than god, Kami and Piccolo, and God King, King Kai. Also if Vegeta, Frieza and Cell hadn't come to Earth forcing Goku to get more powerful there wouldn't be anywhere near enough power on Earth to revive Majin Buu. Remember Spovavich trained SSJ2 Gohan of most of his energy and that was only enough to half fill Majin Buu. Knowing what we do about power levels notably that your average human has a power level of one. Assuming Frieza wasn't lying his second form had a power level of over one million. SSJ2 Gohan was leagues more powerful than Frieza. Draining every single person on Earth wouldn't be enough to resurrect Buu.
- Also at least one of the human warriors will find a 'God' form of their own.
- Toriyama said that Supreme Kais are born from a tree, though...
- The problem with this theory is that they never surpassed Gohan. Mystic Gohan was more powerful than SSJ3 Goku and that is pretty much undisputed. Mystic Gohan is heavily implied not to be an increase in power it's instead a matter of Gohan fighting at 100%. Basically Vegeta was wrong about why Gohan was 'weaker' than when he faced Cell. He'd lost his killer instinct which honestly that kid does everyday.
- YES! Completely agree! This is literally my only problem with the "Super Saiyan 4" state—the name doesn't make sense.
- EDIT: In hindsight, while "Super Saiyan 4" doesn't make sense conventionally for a form that looks nothing like the previous Super Saiyan iterations, it works perfectly for an "ultimate Saiyan" considering who brought it to fore. Goku, the one whose last physical keepsake of Grandpa Gohan was the Four-Star Dragon Ball. Furthermore, the other person to achieve this form in the actual _GT_ series is none other than Vegeta, and thanks to the Super: Broly movie, we know his full name is Vegeta the Fourth. The number four is intrical to Goku and Vegeta's legacies as a marker of who they are, so it becomes a perfect fit as the name of a form that sees the two of them overcome their primal instincts as Saiyans and master them for their own purposes as Earth's protectors. And everybody else who grabbed that form from the video games just has to follow suit.
- Well, his canon counterpart is a mutant so... confirmed?
- So, Buu was a Flawed Prototype God of Destruction, then?
- Taking in consideration information from both Xenoverse and Dragon Ball Minus, he was already toying with the idea due to fear of the Saiyan rebelling (plus the off-chance the Super Saiyan and the Super Saiyan God turning out to be no mere legend), but didn't go through it until Beerus told him to, probably because he found them useful in spite of the threat he believed they posed.
- Akira Toriyama has confirmed that mastering the base Super Saiyan form is more efficient than using further transformations like Super Saiyan 2 or Super Saiyan 3. Also, if this were true, Gotenks wouldn't have been able to skip SS2 altogether and go straight from SS to SS3 without at least mastering his baseSS state. Although, given how unaggressive SS Goten and SS Kid Trunks seemed compared to other Super Saiyans, it's possible that they may already have been Full-Power Super Saiyans.
- Saiyans are not native to Planet Vegeta. The Saiyans we see in the flashbacks are wearing animal skins not the typical Saiyan Armor. In the war with the Tuffles they are being held off because they lack technology. So how were these cave people sending babies into space when they hadn't even invented the car yet?
- Simple. Representatives from Freeza's army (in the anime said reps were the Arcosians, but it's never clarified in the manga) gave them the technology after they beat the Tuffles with the power of the full moon.
- That's obviously true, but it's seems implied that King Vegeta is the first and the planet is named after him. Saiyans hadn't been sending their children out for hundreds or thousands of years the way various Earth Cultures have. They've been doing it for a few decades. Despite the Bardock's lack of attention it wouldn't surprise me to find out that either strong saiyans were the ones actually sent out or weak saiyans despite any elite trash that Vegeta was taught actually get stronger faster. Given that near death experiences make saiyans stronger it seems safe to presume Goku had a lot more of those growing up than even Raditz and certainly Vegeta probably never got one until Goku was so kind.
- Simple. Representatives from Freeza's army (in the anime said reps were the Arcosians, but it's never clarified in the manga) gave them the technology after they beat the Tuffles with the power of the full moon.
- If the Saiyans are the elite unite in Frieza's army why is everybody from the lowest grunt wearing it? And if they are trash that isn't respected why are Frieza and the Ginyu wearing the armor. The armor being able to grow and shrink doesn't mean it was designed with Saiyans in mind. Zarbon and Frieza can both transform, for that matter so can Master Roshi and Piccolo. It's not exactly a rare ability in the Dragonball Universe. Also looking at it it seems probable that the armor was actually modeled after Frieza.
- The armor is NOT exclusive to Saiyans, it's a trademark of the entire organization. The Saiyans are not the elites of the organization, they're basically top-quality grunts and mooks whose power and potential for growth Freeza fears will eventually overtake him.
- That was the point, but it is always referred to by Vegeta as Saiyan Armor not PTO armor. Which leads back to the troper's origial point that so much of what is claimed about the Saiyans would make a lot more sense if it came primarily through people who didn't know, didn't care or wanted to confuse him.
- The armor is NOT exclusive to Saiyans, it's a trademark of the entire organization. The Saiyans are not the elites of the organization, they're basically top-quality grunts and mooks whose power and potential for growth Freeza fears will eventually overtake him.
- If we treat Episode of Bardock as cannon the Super Saiyan legend is actually a legend of Frieza's people that got passed down to the Saiyan's not the other way around. Obviously the movies are of questionable cannon however.
- The Father of Goku was inducted into the canon by Toriyama, Battle of Gods was outright created as canon, Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return is implied to be canon through the reference in Battle of Gods, and Episode of Bardock hasn't really been stated either way. That's about it for canonicity regarding the movies.
- We're told that Saiyans were an evil and blood thirsty race but the few examples we're given don't really support that claim at all. Given how power levels function in DBZ Raditz can claim all he wants that he was picking up his brother because he would make the coming battle easier but that's bullshit. Any battle Vegeta couldn't win by himself Raditz and Goku wouldn't even effect, nor would Raditz. He traveled for two years to get his baby brother and Vegeta let him go because there were only four Saiyans left. Bardock and King Vegeta clearly love their sons and their entire race. For all the talk about Vegeta being cold to the rest of the Z warriors by the time the Buu Saga rolls around it's clear he's spending more time with the group than Tien, Yamcha, Piccolo or Chousou. He also bonds with Future Trunks very quickly. All things considered they don't seem to be a whole lot worse than humans. They are a lot stronger than us on average but there's no reason to think the Red Ribbon Army wouldn't have been every bit as bad as the Saiyans if they had access to the raw power.
- I feel like some of this is a stretch regarding Bardock and the King, but I'm not completely sure exactly what I think there. Until the recent manga revealing Gine, it was thought that Bardock couldn't have cared less about Kakarot prior to seeing the vision of him fighting Freeza because all we'd seen was Bardock scoffing at Kakarot's dismal baby power level, and no hints are given that he thought any more of Raditz either canon-wise. On the other hand, King Vegeta, while a jerkass, has been shown to have some care for his sons. Prince Vegeta was not only treated as his protégé, the kid was also part of his motivation for rebelling against Freeza; and as spelled out in Yo!, he did spare Tarble the horrors to come by exiling him to another planet rather than, say, killing him for dishonoring the royal family name, when it was clear the boy was too weak (either physically or in terms of "heart vs. stomach") to do anything meaningful. That said, I can't deny that they do hold their race in high regard, even if their crews and mates are the only ones that ever really got to see it much.
- Also, you might have a point in that the culture of death and plundering associated with the Saiyans probably came directly from Freeza, as it was after all his army that gave them the refined reach and civilization that allowed them to flourish—under the service of his space pirate empire. Had this been offered to them under more benign conditions, they'd still be ferocious warriors—after all, Saiyans do undeniably value battle and power foremost on a natural level; this is even evident in Goku and Vegeta nowadays, and they're clearly the good guys—but they most likely wouldn't be a race almost exclusively filled with cold-blooded killers. If Saiyans were just naturally evil and it had nothing to do with the culture they were raised in, then Kakarot would've never become the warm-hearted Son Goku after getting dropped on his head and being raised on Earth as a clean slate by a kindly old martial artist in the woods. Again, the only part of Goku's personality that remained the same as it would've if that had never happened is his love of battle and power and food.
- Their reputation for being bloodthirsty warriors may have to do with their tendency to be Blood Knights. The reputation for being evil is clearly because they're members of an evil organisation; they're the race most likely to be sent to conquer or destroy any given planet, so it makes them look like they're constantly lusting for battle. As to Vegeta becoming one of the good guys, that also proves that they're not evil by nature, but by nurture; that, or that Humanity Is Infectious. It also enforces the "bloodthirsty warrior" reputation, in that his rivalry with Goku is the catalyst for his redemption; while redemption may earn life for some people, it earns another chance to be the strongest fighter for Vegeta. Their entire friendship, and Vegeta's mellowing out by extension, stemmed from Vegeta's desire to surpass Goku.
- Cabba and the Universe 6 Saiyans in Dragon Ball Super are mercenaries of justice working under Frieza's Good Counterpartnote Frost, seemingly proving this particular bullet point.
- As for the Red Ribbon Army thing: oh, they would've been just as bad for sure. The Bad Future versions of 17 and 18 are all the evidence we need to be able to tell that.
- Only one major problem. Beerus said that Whis was HIS attendent and when Goku asked Beerus was Whis the strongest he said "it depends on which universe" meaning Whis just like Beerus only has power over his own respective universe.
To go a bit darker, and less likely, it's possible that the two of them ARE Obachaman and Arale. This would mean that at some point they became adults and cyborgs. This could be either because they wanted to grow up and get new bodies or just through application of the Rule of Funny. It would also mean that Gero was somehow able to capture them and erase their memories, giving them a new identity as twin siblings. And also dying Arale's hair. For reasons.
Going a bit meta, I wonder if Toriyama didn't originally intend for the two androids to be Obotchaman and Arale, but backed off after the character designs were made because of possible fan outrage.
[Note that this was a reply to someone else's theory, posted on another forum; for context, see here.]
I think it's more that Super Saiyan becomes more like a second "base" form, and the various enhanced versions are just raw power increases. In the Cell saga, not only were two enhanced SS1 forms introduced (Ascended Super Saiyan & Ultra Super Saiyan), but Goku & Gohan trained to the point where they could maintain their base Super Saiyan forms with virtually no ki drain (Full-Power Super Saiyan form). The two ascended forms show that the base SS form can increase its power output without having to actually transform. Not only is the FPSS form mastery over the SS state (to the point where they lose all of the inherent restlessness and aggression, and gain the ability to control their power level as easily as in their base states), similar to how extensive aerobic training lowers your heart & respiratory rate while you're at rest, but according to Vegeta, when he was sensing FPSS]= Goku & Gohan, they felt the same as if they were in their base form; their aura also calms considerably when in the [=FPSS form, compared to a standard SS aura. (In the anime, mastering the SS form and gaining the FPSS state also allows a Saiyan to use Super Saiyan power without actually transforming out of their base form, suggesting a much deeper bond between the two forms than one just being a transformation of the other.) Furthermore, Goku absorbed some of the Super Saiyan God state into his base and SS forms, letting him stand roughly on par with Beerus without being a god himself anymore (and possibly internalised the ability to transform into an SSG, as well), which suggests that it can be enhanced. (And if you want to stretch things a bit, the movie implies that SSG is a base state transformation instead of a Super Saiyan transformation, seeing how it more or less just gives the Saiyan a red tint, without the bio-electrical discharges or face/hair changes associated with SS transformations, has a much calmer aura (no jagged edges at all), and doesn't explicitly require energy from Super Saiyans (while the others transformed, Pan likely didn't have access to any SS transformations, not being born yet); if this is true, the SS state absorbing some of the SSG form's power implies that SS is treated as a base state (at least for FPSSes). [Furthermore, the SS form causes a MUCH more drastic change in power level than any other form (SS is 50x base state, SS2 is 2x SS, and SS3 is 4x SS2), possibly suggesting that the other forms aren't full-fledged transformations on their own, and merely based on the amount of ki fed to them.]
Further support for this would be how natural transformation is for Trunks & Goten, and how they barely have any of the standard SS aggression until they go SS3 Gotenks. This actually links into another interesting theory; since tails are recessive traits for half-Saiyans, and the only half-Saiyan we've seen with a tail (Gohan) required much more effort to achieve his Super Saiyan form (and how his tail stopped growing back once he finally did get it), it suggests that tails actively interfere with the process. Seeing how tails cause Saiyans to transform into Great Apes, this may suggest that the Great Ape form is a corrupted SS state (as evidenced in one of Vegeta's flashbacks in the Frieza saga). There's a definite link between the two types of transformation; when Future Trunks goes Ultra Super Saiyan, Krillin thought he was turning into a Great Ape, implying that USS has a very similar energy signature to GA; similarly, in the anime, Goku's first onscreen SS3 transformation includes imagery of a GA, hinting at a connection between the two. (GT supports this, in that Super Saiyan 4 is basically a Golden Great Ape in a human body, and majorly increases the Saiyan's aggression, although that show's not exactly canonical.) I'd guess that the tail acts as a conduit or amplifier for emotions (both positive and negative), keeping a transformed Saiyan from concentrating enough to maintain an SS state, or even realising there is one. It's already been proven to actually interfere in the transformation process; note how tailed Saiyans require visual stimulus in the form of a full moon to transformnote , while a Saiyan without a tail is able to transform under their own power. Goten and Trunks, not having tails, were able to transform before they were even 10, and as stated, are much less aggressive in their transformed states. While Goten was conceived after Goku acquired his SS transformation (and thus Goku's ability to transform may have had a hand in Goten's ease of transforming), Trunks was conceived before Vegeta left for his SS training. Therefore, even if it plays a role, the parent Saiyan's access to the SS form doesn't determine how easily their half-Saiyan child can transform. (I'm not sure how Future Trunks' difficulty in initially achieving SS ties into this. Perhaps in that timeline, he was born with a tail?) So, basically, if they had a tail (regardless of whether they still have it), their rage has to hit a breaking point, and push past what the tail can handle, before gaining the ability to transform into an SS instead of a GA. [If we use GT to support this, then a Saiyan whose tail is forced to grow back after achieving an SS form retains the ability to use SS forms, and it seems to amplify both their energy and ability to handle energy while transformed (Saiyans with tails are stronger than average Saiyans, assuming neither has access to any SS transformations; Kid Goku can only retain SS3 for a few seconds until regrowing his tail, thanks to his deaged body's lessened ability to handle the energy, but can keep it much longer after the tail comes back), which can theoretically be extended to amplifying other things, as well. Perhaps this energy amplification is the entire reason that the tail corrupts SS states: SS states have both inherent power and inherent aggression, so an amplified SS state would likely have amplified aggression as well, very possibly more than a Saiyan could consciously handle while retaining a humanoid form. If so, then a tailed Saiyan would only be able to transform into an SS if they had already mastered the Super Saiyan form, and thus it didn't have its inherent aggression and unrest. Otherwise, the heightened emotions would corrupt the transformation, preventing them from using it naturally, and regressing them to a more bestial state when they artificially stimulate it.]
Of course, all we have is speculation until they give an official reason, and these aren't incompatible theories. The whole "Great Ape is a corrupted Super Saiyan form" thing would easily tie them together, as does the SS state's flame-like hair (corresponding to an SSG's flame aura).
...Something else I realised while typing this up: Super Saiyan 2 and 3 probably aren't even additional transformations to begin with! Remember the two ascended forms, Ascended Super Saiyan and Ultra Super Saiyan? They use energy to increase the SS's strength, and merely beef up the base SS state's muscles. Similarly, SS2 and SS3 are just powered-up variations on the basic SS form, focusing more on increasing the energy output instead of physical bulk (SS3 especially, which majorly increases ki utilisation, at the cost of insane ki consumption). This may suggest that both Ascended/Ultra and SS2/SS3 transformations are variants on the same technique, expending ki to magnify aspects of the base SS state. If this is true, then it stands to reason that any further 'transformations' would just drain their reserves too fast to be useful, and that training SS2 and SS3 states either wouldn't be useful, or would only be useful up until they master them. This would also explain why both Ultra Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 3 are associated with the Great Ape form, in that they're both variants of the same thing (pumping oneself up to the point where it immensely increases their abilities, but also has immense drawbacks). [This also suggests that Saiyans use their hair as either ki repositories or ki magnifiers, instead of it just being made of dead skin cells, which ties into pure Saiyans' hair only changing if they transform.]
TL;DR Broly hates Goku not only because of the crying, but because he also associates the crying with getting stabbed, literally thrown away, and nearly being vaporized via planet explosion.
- It's possible that no one with godly ki had ever encountered someone that didn't have godly ki, but was still strong enough to hurt them, and thought that correlation implies causation. That, or standard boasting & arrogance. Considering that godly ki is implied to just be a type of ki so powerful it's beyond most beings' ability to sense, kinda like ultraviolet light being outside of our visual range, this makes sense.
- Adventures of the Saiyans while they were working with Frieza, before he exterminated them(or aftermath stories with the adventures of pre-DBZ Vegeta, Nappa and Raditz)
- What Future Trunks was up to after we last saw him
- The fate of the Saiyans who, like Goku, were launched away from Vegeta as infants
- Life on Namek before the Great Drought, and a possible origin for the Dragonballs
- A background for Dr Gero, and what happened to Androids 1-7 and 9-12
- What Goku was up to in the Otherworld in the seven-year time gap, and how he unlocked Super Saiyan 3
- A Day in the Limelight for Krillin, Tien and maybe even Yamcha
So we now know that Bibidi actually didn't create Majin Buu, but that it already existed and Bibidi tried to summon and control it.
We also know that Kid Buu, for no reason whatsoever, loves destroying everything that comes in its way, and that there are spells to summon and seal it. Before the events of the series, it is the strongest character in the Dragon Ball universe, bar Beerus and Whis.
Talking about Beerus, he's very lazy and he'd rather spend time sleeping or eating than destroying planets, and since he (Let alone Whis) is so much more powerful than Buu, what's stopping him from creating a much weaker, but still very powerful, monster that would destroy planets for him as he wishes? (Preferably when Beerus's asleep). After all, he could effortlessly take Buu down if he went out of control.
That is, Beerus and Whis maybe just lost track of (Or forgot about) him by the time Kid Buu became Fat Buu (And therefore unrecognizable for them) and got sealed by the Supreme Kai.
- There's also all the Saiyan infants they launched into space. In addition, there's the chance the Saiyans interbred with other species, much like Vegeta would with Bulma(and there are a lot of aliens they'd probably be compatible with). Even if Frieza got his men to finish off as many stragglers as possible, there's probably a bunch of both native and unknowing Saiyans out there. Vegeta and Raditz claim there's only them, Nappa and Goku, but knowing Saiyan pride its possible they know a bunch of Saiyans still exist, they just don't seem them worthy of being considered Saiyans. Frieza would be most interested in killing Saiyans more like Vegeta than some ignorant baby that probably doesn't know they're Saiyans. It's not worth his time, and the remaining Saiyans would get suspicious.
- This could also explain Gohan's tail. Gohan is the only half-Saiyan to have a tail. His brother doesn't have one, Trunks doesn't have one, and Bra doesn't have one. If the tail is actually a recessive gene, they it could have been passed down throught Chichi's family without anyone ever having one. Goku would have the gene for tail from both of his parents, while Chichi only has one. Gohan inherited the tail gene from both pparents, so he was born with one. Goten only received the gene from his father, so doesn't. Since Bulma is 100% human, and has no tail gene, neither of her children with Vegeta can have a tail.
- The "hibernations" Buu goes through might actually be periods of time where he tries to revive himself from complete obliteration. It might go to explain how the universe can still exist for so long without someone putting him down for good.
Consider exactly where did Cell get his unique abilities of absorbing people and taking their attributes. Neither Namekians, Saiyans, or Frost Demons have ever been shown to be able to do that. Only Cell and Buu. And although Namekians are known for their Healing Factor,it's nothing compared to that of Cell.
Perhaps Dr. Gero found Buu years before Babidi, and based Cell's programming on that. Neither Gero nor Cell himself could ever comprehend exactly what was Buu supposed to be, and they Cell assumed that everything he had was inherited from the aforementioned warriors.
- I'm pretty sure that whatever Majin Buu is, he doesn't have DNA. It's possible that Gero added other DNA(why else does Cell look like an insect), or mutated existing DNA for his purposes. Namekians can "absorb" other beings through fusion, so its possible that was re-purposed to straight-up assimilation.
- Turles was definitely in Bardock's generation, since he is described in one of the Daizenshuus as having been "a first-rate fighter" before Planet Vegeta's destruction, just like Bardock and friends. That said, he knew when traveling to Earth that Goku was Bardock's son and Gohan his grandson. If he had direct familial relation to them, you'd expect he would have revealed it to influence them the way Raditz did, even if he didn't feel any familial affection for them. He's also described as "having an interest in" the "famously brave Bardock" in said Daizenshuus, which implies they were more likely to have been colleagues than family. Being suspicious of Frieza because of what happened to Bardock is probably dead accurate, though.
- So that makes Frost King Cold's younger counterpart, then?
- A Villain with Good Publicity still has publicity, which seems to fly in the face of no one knowing King Cold exists. Accounting for the DBS retcons, I think it's more likely he was a Villain With Good Publicity who withdrew completely from the public eye after ceding power to Frieza, and with Frieza being Frieza, most people just figured he was "poisoned by his enemies".
- To where a good hit to it, even by someone not as powerful, can end up severely affecting, if not neutralizing altogether, the ability to fight. There’s a repeated pattern of this – Vegeta ends up dying when Frieza Death Beams him right through the heart (which, to be fair, would probably happen to anyone), Raditz’s end comes when Piccolo’s Special Beam Cannon hits him in the stomach – only after Gohan’s headbutt dents his armor. Broly, who for all intents and purposes was Dragonball Z’s Physical God before Physical Gods were cool, dies once when a well-targeted punch from Goku hits him directly in the torso, and then again when his heart explodes when he is launched into the Sun. In ‘‘Resurrection F’’, Goku, who is in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form, and even when fatigued, obscenely powerful, gets knocked out almost instantly by a ray gun to the heart by Sorbet, who was several magnitudes weaker and using the equivalent of a pea shooter against a tank. Cell, given his Saiyan genetics, may have had this same issue to some degree. He reacted noticeably badly to most body shots – particularly in his final form. This may have been the reason that Saiyan armor was invented in the first place – so that a lucky shot to the right spot by a weaker enemy couldn’t put Saiyans completely out of commission in a battle.
- That makes a lot of sense, actually. Considering that due to zenkai, anything that doesn't kill them literally makes them stronger, that they're willing to exploit this if it's necessary (case in point, Vegeta getting Krillin to all but kill him so he'd get a zenkai boost, because he wasn't strong enough to fight Frieza), and that their Hyperactive Metabolism appears to help them heal faster than humans, it's entirely plausible that they subconsciously lower their defenses specifically so they'll take near-fatal damage and get a zenkai boost, under the logic that as long as the threat can't immediately kill them, they'll be strong enough to conquer it next time around.
In addition, Recoome is a genetically-modified human, an experiment to produce a warrior who could beat any Saiyan of the time but will never be strong enough to threaten Frieza. But humans just don't naturally have such high power levels, and without access to rare or even supernatural training, the only way to create a warrior that strong involved turning him into a giant.
- Alternative take on this; we know that the world of Dragonball has gone through at least one apocalyptic event when King Piccolo first razed the world 300 years ago. We're not given a state of how advanced the world was when Master Roshi was born, so it's possible that humans were already travelling into space by then. With contact from Earth lost those explorers decided to embrace that alien side, forget their origins and eventually Freeza came around.
The early DBZ fights also support this notion; Nappa had at least twice as much raw power compared to the Z Warriors, but Krillin and Piccolo were still able to hold him at bay for a considerable length of time because Nappa was a mediocre fighter at best and Krillin and Piccolo have literally entered martial arts tournaments. Goku had issues matching Vegeta when he finally arrived because Vegeta is actually a good fighter and so the difference in Skill was minimal. The late DBZ fights also support this notion; recall that after Majin Buu was first summoned, Gohan said that he thought that he could take him, indicating that he thought Buu's Power wasn't that much different from his own. Unfortunately for Gohan, Buu doesn't feel pain, regenerates like mad, and doesn't tire. Kid Buu, despite being the weakest form in terms of raw Power, still managed to beat down Goku and Vegeta because of these reasons plus the fact that he was so damned unpredictable.
Dragon Ball Super is starting to showcase this a bit more with the Tournament of Power; raw power was a consideration when Gohan and Goku were considering people for the tournament, but they also considered experience and skill to be just as if not more important, and settled on Krillin and Master Roshi due to the former having all kinds of crazy attacks and the latter having experience and tricky techniques.
Buff Buu is stated to be what happened when Kid Buu absorbed the South Supreme Kai, but many fans were confused about the default Super Buu form. I believe it to be the closest thing to Buff Buu, just after countless years of having been suppressed by the Fat Buu personality. Like the South Supreme Kai Super Buu seems to be quite muscular (though not as much as when the Buff Buu personality is fully expressed), and has slightly greater intellect than Fat Buu or Kid Buu. He also seems to be primarily concerned with battle and challenges; the South Supreme Kai appeared to be a warrior of some sort. When Fat Buu lost the battle and was reabsorbed, it allowed the Buff Buu personality out and gave it access to its former aspect's power. When Fat Buu is removed, Super Buu briefly assumes the form of Buff Buu. So really Super Buu is just Kid Buu + South Supreme Kai + Grant Supreme Kai. The power of Buu plus some of the muscles and combat personality of the South Supreme Kai. If Buu had never absorbed the Supreme Kai, he would have eventually digested the South Supreme Kai and completely absorbed all his aspects and the result would be something similar to Super Buu in personality and appearance.
Omega Shenron's power was stated to be able to eventually, over time, destroy the entire universe through the spreading of his negative energy. That puts him at low-end universe-busting, considering he could do it, but it would take a long time. SSJ4 Gogeta utterly eclipsed him in power, though, such that he couldn't even see or sense his movements unless Gogeta wanted him to. It stands to reason, then, that SSJ4 Gogeta is definitely above low-to-mid-tier universe-busting in power, possibly even high-end considering just how huge the gap was. One of Super Saiyan God Goku's first major feats? Nearly destroying the whole universe in just three clashing punches. The scaling lines up pretty well!
- The Makyo Star, the home planet of the Makyans, is mobile and moves from planet to planet, conquering them.
- Universe 9 is a very rough universe where only the strong survive, the kind of place where a planet that lives by conquering others would thrive.
- Garlic Jr. possesses the power to open portals to other dimensions, IE the Dead Zone. In theory, he or someone else could have brought the planet into a different universe with the same or a similar ability.
- All of the Makyans, like the Universe 9 Tournament of Power fighters, are named after spices. Basil, Garlic, Ginger, Lavender, Bergamo, Salt, etc.
- Freeza's race has no official name, and we have no idea what Metamorans actually look like. In DBS's Resurrection 'F' arc, it's confirmed that Freeza definitely knows what fusion is (well in the dub anyway). Granted, Freeza's lived a pretty long time and has probably seen a ton of techniques; plus he's had soldiers working under him of numerous races, and some of them could have used fusion. But Freeza doesn't seem like the type to interact directly with his soldiers too often, and he probably wouldn't be on the battlefield with them if he could help it.
- The root word -meta, which means to change (ex. metamorphisis); could serve as an allusion to their transformation abilities.
When Dr Gero was "killed", his consciousness was downloaded into the Super Computer, who ended up being Killed Off for Real by Future Trunks and Krillin. This is why the wish to bring back the people everyone Cell and the androids killed when an android crushed his skull; 17 eliminated his organic components, but Trunks and Krillin finished him off. As for Cell and Future Cell, how come they don't have Gero's consciousness? The good doctor has a habit of underestimating the will and individuality of his creations, and Cell had a will of his own strong enough to reject him.
Why, then, would Cooler describe this as his "third transformed state"? Well, first, why would he describe it like that at all if it was the form that required absolutely zero transformations? But more than that, I think the answer is found in Frost. Remember that Toriyama once described Cold and Frieza as mutants of their race, explaining both their borderline–incalculable strength and the fact that they were evil. Frost is much nicer than Frieza (at least in the manga), perhaps establishing that he is not a mutant and his strength comes from training rather than being born with it. Frost, notably, does not possess an equivalent to Frieza's second form, and his equivalent to Frieza's third form is called his "Assault Form". I think that most members of Frieza's race only have the squat, first form, which severely limits their natural power; the third form, which helps them channel their ki more efficiently; the fourth/natural form, which removes any limits on their power at all; and an equivalent to Frieza's Golden Form, which is the only transformation they have that actually increases their ki. I think that Frieza's second form was a form invented by his father, King Cold, as a kind of half–way pressure valve release for his power — Cold didn't want to release all of his power, but needed more power than the minuscule first form would allow him. I think, therefore, that Cooler in his "third transformed state" because it's not his natural state, but rather his equivalent to Friza's Golden Form. Remember that Frieza knew he could achieve his Golden Form before he began training to achieve it, and that he specifically described it as him having chosen to make it gold, implying that other members of his race might have a similar form that is not monochrome. I think that's what Cooler's "base" form is: he's mastered the equivalent of Frieza's Golden form in an effort to try to match Frieza and King Cold's monstrous strength (the theory being that Cooler isn't a mutant, and so is not nearly as naturally strong, which also explains his Card-Carrying Villain tendencies which don't tend to vibe with his actual actions).
Fridge Horror sets in when you realize that this means Frieza might have as many as two◊ more◊ forms he could unlock, both of which come with dramatic power increases... if he knew everything that his brother had achieved.
Hence, the split was not—and never was going to be—a complete split. King Piccolo could've easily not produced Ma Junior, and allowed Kami to die as well, but he didn't. Or maybe he thought Kami would die, but making Ma Junior filled the void left by King Piccolo's death, allowing Kami to live on.
Anyway, Kami's advanced age also could've served as a nerf on Piccolo's strength. From the very beginning, when King Piccolo was revitalized by the Dragon Balls, that nerf from Kami could've assisted with Goku defeating him. It also could've nerfed him against Radditz, Nappa, Freeza, and Android 17. (Not so much against Android 20.)
When Piccolo re-fused with Kami, it eliminated Kami's aged body, thus allowing Piccolo to utilize his full potential.
- If you notice, the children with Saiyan heritage that encountered an unusual amount of violence in their youths - Gohan, Future Trunks being the prime examples - hit growth spurts somewhat faster than was the case for the ones that experienced long periods of peace or at least their own lives not being at risk (Goten, present Trunks, and even Goku himself, who lived a relatively serene hermit martial artist's life for basically all of his preadolescent years). Compare Gohan at the point where he fought Cell aged 10-11 (accounting for an extra year in the HTC), and present Trunks in DBS aged about 12-13 - or, for that matter, Goku at the same age in DB.
Alternatively...
- Given that Bardock and Gine's pairing for love is noted as exceptional for Saiyans, it's not hard to imagine the race being prone to sowing a wild oat or two.note Maybe King Vegeta is one of the few Saiyans who actually did maintain the appearance of a monogamous union for the sake of his dynasty. But like other Kings, his royal status didn't preclude him from getting a little side action. In fact, it probably made it much easier. So he knocks up a random low-class Saiyan girl (or maybe not? Maybe there was another, erm, compatible race out there) and out pops Tarble. He's not strong at all but he's also King Vegeta's blood, which makes him a walking inconvenience. So he sends Tarble to a backwater planet to get him out of his spiky hair.
Probably my second hypothesis is the correct one, given how forgotten almost all the DB original characters get. There seems to be no place in this story for Yamcha, Poal, Oolong, Master Kame and Bulma (except, in her case, as the sudden love interest of the regenerated villain). Kurilin exists only as the tag-along sidekick, and Tenshinhan and Chaos are there only for the villain mop the floor with them to show how strong he is. Piccolo is a demon in DB (vulnerable to spiritual prisons and all), then is suddenly an alien in DBZ. All the fun is scraped, except for some few scenes between the fights. The characters' variety of powers is taken away, giving its place to ever-growing energy rays. Even the titular Dragon Balls are almost forgotten from the Cell arc on.
All in all, this looks a lot like Mr. Toriyama was putting his old characters in a story which wasn't planned to feature them.
- By the time the two are introduced ages 7 and 8, both seem to be able to not only be able to transform but know what it is and can do it at will, implying they've known how to do it for some time. From what we know of the initial SSJ transformation, it requires a certain amount of power to reach the threshold and an emotional catalyst to break it. Small children are liable to rage at anything because they don't regulate their emotions well and don't have the maturity to know the difference between something that's worth actually getting angry at and something that isn't. An anime scene implies that Goten unlocked it when he lost his cool for a second while training with Chi-Chi. For all we know, Trunks could have unlocked it when his mom told him to go to bed early. Alternatively, the boys could have each unlocked it play fighting with each other. But the thought that Trunks getting pissed enough to go Super Saiyan because he didn't want to go to bed is much funnier.
- Romantic affection seems lost on Goku even up to the days of Super (and, to be fair, it seems that Saiyans aren't naturally wired for it), but... obviously he knows the mechanics of reproduction because he's got two kids, the oldest one being born not long after he and Chi-Chi were married. So who clued Goku in to how to make a baby? It wasn't Grandpa Gohan - Goku was far too young at that point. And he probably didn't learn during the time he spent with Kami because Kami's race don't reproduce like that. The most likely scenario, then, is Goku, while training at Kame House, came upon Roshi's, erm, magazine collection, which probably left him with a few questions...
- Both of them are naturally strong without ever having trained. While little is known of their species, official author comments state that they're mutants with abnormal power and cruelty for their kind. Perhaps a reason for this cruelty and lack of power was an end result of trying to breed the most powerful of their race. Given they were the result of a clinical, cynical means of making a powerful member of their race, it led to the family lacking the emotional warmth and pretty much guaranteed ASPD to be rampant in the bloodline. One of the reasons why King Cold was so flippantly able to suggest Future Trunks replace his son for a job offer is because he had Frieza under the mindset of a powerful heir instead of an actual son.
- Dragon Ball Minus notes that Cold publicly ceded his position to Frieza, seemingly while the latter was still quite young and Cold was very much in his prime. It's not unreasonable to assume he'd realized how freakishly strong Frieza was and saw the writing on the wall and so basically gave the position of Galactic Emperor to Frieza rather than waiting for Frieza to take it violently.
- In Wrath of the Dragon, present Trunks gets Tapion's sword in an attempt to the two versions of Trunks together - but of course that's not canonical. So why does Future Trunks have the same sword? Well, Rule of Cool, but also let's note that Trunks insists on using it long after it's been worfed.