When a character (primarily in dramas) is asked to go beyond their job and help with "a cause", the character sometimes refuses, and afterwards the other person asks, "What's happened to you?" or "Since when did you stop caring?" the answer sometimes comes down to the character saying, "I grew up," implying that the character "grew" from a Wide-Eyed Idealist to an embittered cynic. It's also often used by the Anti-Hero or Straw Nihilist to mock the idealistic methods and beliefs of the Ideal Hero and his ilk; such naive and childish wishful thinking has no place in the grown-up, paranoid, cynical world that the Anti Hero lives in. Alternatively, a Retired Badass might have genuinely gotten too old or set in retirement to do what's being asked of them.
Considering that many shows and media that are on the idealistic end of the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism or are just plain Lighter and Softer with simplistic plots are primarily targeted towards children, while cynical media with more controversial plots are often targeted to adults or attract controversy from Moral Guardians, there can often be a tendency, especially among more cynical people, to associate idealism with childish or simplistic thinking, something to outgrow, rather than an actual, legitimate, motivatingnote philosophy that adults can also make use of. This conditioned bias is a major reason for why many people believe True Art Is Angsty.
It should be noted that a secondary reason is the association in working class culture between adulthood and the abandonment of lofty goals. The general idea is that you get a job and stop daydreaming, and eventually come to peace with the idea that you probably won't be famous or single-handedly reshape the world, and is as much a survival mechanism as it is crab-bucket reflex.
Sometimes the result of the character crossing the Despair Event Horizon. The Sour Supporter often expresses it, especially in the face of Least Is First. May be accompanied by a warning that Hope Is Scary. Subtrope of Jade-Colored Glasses. See also Silly Rabbit, Romance Is for Kids!. Could also overlap with Obstructive Bureaucrat, and Noble Bigot with a Badge.
Expect this phrase to be uttered in Crapsack World settings and Real Life. Especially by the more Machiavellian Realpolitikers when they lecture idealists about the deceptive dog-eat-dog world of international relations. Also hordes of edgy teenagers, but the pro-idealism side of things has plenty of those as well.
Contrast Good Is Old-Fashioned, where idealism is regarded as only for the children's grandparents. The intent is much the same: To imply that the good/idealistic person is unfamiliar with the here and now. The character may say that what they are dealing with is Above Good and Evil, and the idealistic character should not drag in such childish morality.
It's not all one-way, however; the idealist may fire a few shots back in return. The cynic may be dismissed as a 'sell-out' who gave up on doing the right thing for their own selfish gain under the false pretense of logic and realism. For instance certain characters just aren't willing to jeopardize their careers, and livelihoods just to change the status quo (this could be Truth in Television depending on how romantic one is and who you happen to be looking at). Or maybe he'll even be called a 'coward' and a weakling who gave up the good fight because he found it too hard and instead resigned themselves to wangsting about bad things.
Compare and contrast Knight In Sour Armor, who still hold ideals, just not as idealists; a converted holder of Silly Rabbit, Idealism Is For Kids! views may turn into this, keeping to the appearance of cynicism while reluctantly pursuing idealistic goals. Also contrast Silly Rabbit, Cynicism Is for Losers!, for when excessive cynicism and pessimism turns out to be just as blinding as too much idealism or optimism (or when idealists call out cynics on their attitude, as above).
- This trope is inverted in Black Lagoon when Takenaka, a Terrorist Without A Cause, attempts to interrogate Rock into giving up some info by convincing him that they're Not So Different. Rock refuses, and asks Takenaka why he keeps fighting for a cause he's already lost. Takenaka explains that he's long since lost any ideals about being able to do anything constructive with his actions, but "keeps preaching" because it's the only thing he finds meaning in doing.
- One can argue that then entire series is about this trope when it comes to Rock's character. He's had to face this trope many times.
- A Certain Magical Index: Almost every character, even the people he saves, are often completely baffled that Touma Kamijou will help anyone who needs it and interfere with problems that have nothing to do with him, not expecting any reward or fame, but just because he feels it is right and he believes anyone else in his situation would do the same. Several characters think Touma really has some kind of ulterior motive or is insane.
- This is Kyosuke Munakata's feelings towards Makoto Naegi in Danganronpa 3. He feels that Makoto's methods of dealing with despair (rehabilitation) are too soft, and that the only way to defeat despair is to eradicate it completely (i.e., murder anyone who might be remotely connected to despair).
- In Fullmetal Alchemist both Miles and another Briggs soldier mention this, as when they were Ed's age they thought they could get through life without killing anyone either.
- Great Teacher Onizuka: Often a particularly jaded character (such like Urumi, Miyabi, Ms. Daimon...) will go in a rant about the rotting of the society, Adults Are Useless or abusive/perverted creeps, kids are delinquents, you can trust nobody or they shall abuse you or take advantage of you. However they sooner or later are confronted with the opposite trope and being told they are just blind cynics and that mindset is one of the roots of those troubles.
- The Token Mini-Moe in Heat Guy J gets in an argument with a Defective Detective, when he tells her that money isn't everything. In her world, where she and her mother barely have what they need to survive, money is everything, and she has become jaded. She tells him that believing in ideals like "money can't bring happiness" is all a fantasy.
- Mazinger Z: In a story arc of the Gosaku Ota manga alternate continuity Baron Ashura manages to kidnap Kouji Kabuto and tries to talk Kouji into joining him. When Kouji refuses, Ashura goes in a What Is Evil? rant, stating "justice" and "peace" are only meaningless, empty words invented by people because they are too cowardly and weak to accept the truth (Might Makes Right according him) and protect themselves, and then he taunts Kouji, telling the only thing his idealism has got him is trouble and humiliation.
- Monster: Johan seems to be trying to teach this to Tenma, and toward the end says "The only thing humans are equal in... is death."
- In One Piece, when the Sun Pirates helps a young human girl (whom they had grown to cherish) return to her village, Arlong is quick to ruin their mood by stating that Koala will grow up to hate fishmen like any other human. While he was wrong about Koala to the point that she's a Revolutionary and substitute teacher of the Fishman style of martial arts, he was right about the people of Koala's hometown, who repaid Fisher Tiger's kindness in returning the ex-slave child by reporting him to the Marines, who mortally wounded him, purely out of Fantastic Racism.
- It's a trait of many villains in the series that they'll spout a line like this. Donquixote Doflamingo especially does it a lot, though it's subverted by the Big Bad Blackbeard, who actually believes in dreams and idealism in his own, twisted way.
- Which makes sense considering he has the Will of D.
- It's a trait of many villains in the series that they'll spout a line like this. Donquixote Doflamingo especially does it a lot, though it's subverted by the Big Bad Blackbeard, who actually believes in dreams and idealism in his own, twisted way.
- In Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Homura Akemi beautifully sums it up:
"With kindness comes naïveté. Courage becomes foolhardiness. And dedication has no reward. If you can't accept any of that, you are not fit to be a Magical Girl."
- And then it got defied in the end:
- The fandom is still debating whether or not this is a cop out or a valid point.
- Subverted in Rurouni Kenshin. When the villains try to Break the Cutie Kaoru by saying that martial arts are for killing, the titular protagonist agrees.. but also says that he prefers the idealism over the truth.
- Used in Sayonara, Zetsubou-Sensei the first time Itoshiki Nozomu teaches the class.
- To expand on it, Nozomu tells his class to write down their "Despairs for the future", essentially the students writing down their "Hopes for the future", what they are aiming at becoming, which Nozomu shoots down by saying "It's hopeless", and then giving them a Breaking Lecture on their unrealistic goals... And then Fuura Kafuka shoots HIM down simply by stating that no matter how unrealistic your goal is, as long as you do your best to achieve it "the possibility exists" that you'll succeed. note
- Used in Tiger & Bunny to highlight the duality between Kotetsu and his partner Barnaby. Barnaby, a Punch-Clock Hero who views superheroics as "just another job", finds Kotetsu's still-intact idealism and aspirations towards being The Cape to be childish and naive. The twist is that Kotetsu is at least ten years older than Barnaby, and seems to be holding on to the virtues of "the good old days" in an era where superheroes have become marketing mascots.
- As the series progresses and he starts to rub off on Barnaby, the focus of the trope shifts from the two of them to Kotetsu and Lunatic, a Vigilante Man whose sense of justice involves burning criminals alive.
- In his case, it turns out his mindset is based on the knowledge of what the Stern Bild idea of 'justice' actually entails. For much of the series the HeroTV heroes are ignorant of the massive corruption and violence that lies behind the glitzy theatrics, giving another reason (if one were needed) why the others don't see where Lunatic's coming from. Hopefully time will tell what the reactions of them and NEXTs in general will be to Maverick's setup being uncovered.
- As the series progresses and he starts to rub off on Barnaby, the focus of the trope shifts from the two of them to Kotetsu and Lunatic, a Vigilante Man whose sense of justice involves burning criminals alive.
- Partially due to his Heroic BSoD in Season 3, Judai in Yu-Gi-Oh! GX developed a "Stop Having Fun" Guys mentality towards Duel Monsters during his journey into adulthood between Seasons 3 and 4, effectively losing the optimism that he had for two and a half seasons.
- Oddly enough, before that he was big on 'It's a game, have fun!' Pretty big turn around.
- In the final episode Judai duels Yugi and regains his passion for dueling.
- Technically, he was supposed to have regained it during the pair duel that season, but then the writers said "screw it" and had him re-learn that exact same lesson for the finale.
- Gemini Storm's Elizabeth Rose is very negative, to the point of berating her male companion when he yells at her for killing one of the monsters trying to kill them both.
- Speedball's evolution into Penance. This trope plus a dump truck full of Wangst. He had amnesia at the time. He knew that he used to be a hero and that he'd done something bad, he just didn't know who or what.
- This would be a big part of Sally Floyd's mentality in a nutshell during Civil War. When she berates Captain America, she claims that modern America is not about idealistic beliefs but about mediocrity and pop culture, and that Captain America with his idealism broke America (sic).
- Superman once battled the Elite (a pastiche of The Authority), a pack of super-anti-heroes who routinely killed. It was the Elite's point-of-view that Superman's boy-scout kid-gloves morality was a weakness, and that defeating evil required being just as bad. During their final face-off, Superman appeared to be going all-out, slaughtering his way through the Elite on live TV. But it was a fake-out — he was merely knocking them out in creative ways, trying to illustrate how terrifying superpowered killers can be. Manchester Black, the leader of the Elite, maintained that Superman's idealism was nothing but a facade until his dying day. (When Black realized that Superman honestly and sincerely believed and lived up to his ideals, it was more than Black could take and he committed suicide.)
- In fact, the very idea of idealism apparently screwed Black up so much that he eventually came back and tried to destroy the entire world to ultimately prove his point, in a large-scale prequel to the Joker's attempted demonstrations in The Dark Knight. Except with more Humans Are Bastards (and so are you) thrown in. In The DCU, enough cynicism apparently leads to evil on an epic scale.
- In another example, Clark Kent once came across a police officer he was acquainted with both as Kent and Superman attempting to beat a confession out of Pete Ross, who was suspected of being a supervillain at the time. When Kent confronted her about it, the police officer dismissively told him to 'grow up'. Unfortunately for her, then Superman confronted her — and snatched her badge from her with his superspeed, crushed it in his fist, and bluntly told her that she was a disgrace who didn't deserve to wear it. Not entirely surprisingly, having the Man of Steel deliver a What the Hell, Hero? speech to her was enough to prompt something of a moral crisis for her.
- Overall lesson from all this — telling Superman that cynicism and maturity are the same thing is a very bad idea.
- In Superman: At Earth's End, Ben Boxer claims that Superman's ideals, such as not killing for any reason, have no place whatsoever in a devastated hellhole ruled by twin clones of Adolf Hitler.
"Foolish old man... your refusal to kill got you nowhere in 1999 — Where do you think it will get you now, in a world ruled by death?!"
- Subverted in Elseworld's Finest: Supergirl & Batgirl. Batgirl is a cynical jerkass who thinks the Justice Society are gods looking down on the little people and Supergirl is clueless when she tells that they and Lex Luthor are her surrogate family. When it's revealed that Luthor is a lying, murderous bastard it looks like Batgirl has been proved right, but then she talks Supergirl out of killing him because she's a hero and a symbol of Hope and shouldn't drop to his level.
- In one of Marvel Comic's Thunderbolts mini-series, Baron Zemo accidentally goes back in time and encounters many of his ancestors via time-jumps, one of whom is in young love with a lady that history says he's not destined to marry. Zemo tells them to their faces that they can dream because they are young, and that the harshness of reality will eventually make them adults. Of course he was right all along. He knew he would marry another after all.
- The Comedian's speech at the "Crime Busters" meeting.
- Ozymandias too, as he tells Nite Owl to grow up and adapt in response to his idealistic views, since his new world has no place for silly old-fashioned heroics.
- In the Detective Comics (Rebirth) storyline "The Victim Syndicate", Stephanie Brown performs a FaceHeel Turn and attempts to blackmail Batman into getting every vigilante to retire, get help and live normal lives to prevent a group like them from existing and to stop another Tim Drake from dying. Batwing and Clayface call her out by pointing out that doing something like that isn't as simple as just hanging up their costumes and being normal as they have problems beyond just wearing the costume and punching people.
- Suzaku in A Different Code is on the receiving end of this several times. First, Lelouch openly tells him he can't "change the system from the inside" when the people in charge don't want things changed. Then Jeremiah points out that Suzaku is ignoring all Britannia's faults blindly, whereas Jeremiah knows Britannia has faults but is loyal anyway. Lastly, Lloyd Asplund shuts down Suzaku's rant about the Black Knights merely being lucky the landslide at Narita didn't bury the town by pointing out that any weapon capable of stopping the VARIS rifle could have done so, thus they must have powered it down to save the town. Suzaku then gets indignant about the few house that were hit being "sacrificed" only for Lloyd to point out that life isn't a laboratory and there was likely some unforeseen factor that caused the landslide to go further than intended.
- V.V. laughs himself silly at Suzaku's idea of changing the Britannia from with.
- Harry is far more cynical than the more idealist Anakin in The Havoc Side of the Force. Unlike most examples however, he teaches Anakin to be more cynical because he honestly doesn't want the kid to learn the hard way like Harry did.
- In I Spoke As A Child, the normally pleasant Frankie curses out Mac (a nine year old) and tells him that he's living in an idealistic bubble and needs to "grow the fuck up". However, she apologizes for this a few hours later. Frankie only snapped at him because she's dealing with the aftermath of Date Rape and has been traumatized by the ordeal.
- Happened to Garrus in Parable series. After the two years on Omega and then repeatedly sees how the world treats his wife Jane despite her sacrifices, by the end of the Reaper war, he has completely changed from the idealistic Turian at the beginning of the series to a jaded man that only looks out for his family and is perfectly fine with abandoning people in need if they affect his loved ones' well-being in anyway. Case in point, in Part 6, ''Recrudescence'', he gets into a fight with Kaidan when the latter uses the Normandy's fund to save a pair of mother/daughter slaves while the former needs that money to make sure the ship run smoothly for his twin babies' sake; when Kaidan askes where is the man that wanted justice for everyone, Garrus just flat-out replies that that man is dead and replaced with someone that know how the universe works.
- In the How to Train Your Dragon fanfic A Thing of Vikings, Regent Einar Thambarskelfir corners Hiccup at one point and, in true evil mentor fashion, tells him that, no matter what people might otherwise claim, their motivations ultimately amount to nothing more than money, power, sex and revenge, and the sooner he realizes this, the better a lord he'll become. Later, he takes Tuffnut aside and is genuinely appalled at Tuffnut's apparent lack of ambition and gives him a dare to be badass lecture.
- Megamind: There is this discussion:
Roxanne: Please don't do this! I know there's still good in you, Hal.Hal: You're so naive, Roxie. You see the good in everybody, even when it's not there. You're living in a fantasy. There is no Easter Bunny, there is no Tooth Fairy, and there is no Queen of England. This is the real world, and you need to wake up!
- In My Little Pony: The Movie (2017), this is the point of Tempest Shadow's Villain Song Open Up Your Eyes.
- In Zootopia, Nick Wilde tells Judy (who is a literal rabbit) that he considers her world view naive and childish, and her dreams are going to be crushed by reality.
Nick Wilde: Tell me if this story sounds familiar. Naive little hick with good grades and big ideas decides "Hey look at me, I'm gonna move to Zootopia, where predators and prey live in harmony and sing Kumbaya!" Only to find, whoopsie: we don't all get along. And that dream of becoming a big city cop? Double whoopsie; she's a meter maid. And whoopsie number three-sy: no one cares about her or her dreams. And soon enough those dreams die, and our bunny sinks into an emotional and literal squalor, living in a box under a bridge, until finally she has no choice but to go back home, with that cute fuzzy-wuzzy little tail between her legs to become... You're from Bunnyburrow, is that what you said? So how about a carrot farmer? That sound about right?
- The Avengers (2012): Loki lectures Black Widow on this:
Loki: ...and you think saving a man no more virtuous than yourself will change anything? This is the basest sentimentality. This is a child at prayer... PATHETIC!
- The Brave One: Jackie, the ex-wife of Detective Mercer from this film. Detective Mercer asks Jackie for help and she replies, "I can't help. Besides, I don't do 'pro bono." When Mercer asks why, she responds, "I grew up."
- The Dark Knight: This film is essentially a battle of ideologies between Batman and The Joker, with the Joker trying to prove to Batman that deep down, everyone is just as evil as he is.
- Dragonheart: The hero starts off as this, a cold hearted mercenary who was soured by trying to instruct a king in the old code, the code of honour of the kingdom, who grew up heartless anyway. He later becomes something of a Knight In Sour Armor.
- In The Elite Squad, Neto is insulted as naive by Fabio when the former is incredulous about the precinct commander's getting paid off by the drug dealers. He quickly learns to turn the cops' bribe-taking against them. Matias doesn't.
- Extreme Justice: In this Lou Diamond Phillips film, a lot of the Powers That Be appear to be this way when dealing with Knight Templar cops. Mostly due to the fact they think the ends justify the means, and the lower level powers that be are largely useless due to being in fear of losing their jobs and pensions. And Lou Diamond Phillips' character is mostly seen as naive by his co-workers because he's trying to expose the corruption that people seem to passively aggressively support.
- Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire: In a Deleted Scene from the fourth film, Moody (actually Crouch Jr.) tells Harry after the Second Task that "if you want to play the hero, I can find you plenty of playmates among the first years."
- New Jack City:
Nino Brown: Look at you... in a few years they'll be marking your grave. Me? I'll be right here. What can you offer them? Another "I have a dream" speech? Some of that same shit you ripping off to me? Look where we at. Not a pot to piss in, nor a window to throw it out of. You's the fool, old man.
- The charismatic drug lord Nino Brown gave such a speech to the old military veteran, after the veteran tries to reason with Nino that he's destroying his own community and hurting his own people selling drugs. Nino's response:
- Nino Brown continued to joke about the war veteran later that night. But the old man would get the last laugh.
- Predator: Dutch finds his special forces team has been duped by CIA agent Dillon:
Dutch: What happened to you, Dillon? You used to be someone I could trust.
Dillon: I woke up. Why don't you? You're an asset. An expendable asset. And I used you to get the job done.
- Revolution (1985): Mr. McConnahay more or less tells Daisy this.
- Se7en: This is Somerset's attitude towards Mills. Somerset's years as a cop have left him disillusioned, jaded, and borderline misanthropic. He scoffs at the younger man's more optimistic outlook on life, at one point even chastising him by saying "You can't be this naive!" When Mills finally succumbs to the darkness by killing John Doe, however, Somerset is clearly saddened to be proven right.
"For the record, I don't like how this turned out any more than you do. But this is the world we live in. And justice does not always prevail. It's not the wild west where you can clean up the streets with a gun. Even though sometimes it's exactly what is needed... Bob Lee Swagger, you're free to go."
- This Mark Wahlberg film turns into this trope towards the end of the film as the protagonist tries to bring down a corrupt senator, a colonel, and a group of Private Military Contractors. The film even includes the "This is the "real world" type of speech from the Attorney General towards Bob Lee Swagger. Of course, his Exact Words are:
- So Swagger goes straight to the senator's cabin and shoots all of them.
- Star Wars:
- Has this occur later on; Han gets Luke to his destination (as per their deal), goes on a massive detour to save a princess and adds the Empire to the list of people who want him dead, only to be met with criticism from the naive teenager who owes him for wanting to leave after earning his reward. Averted when the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism tipples ever so slightly towards idealism when The Power of Friendship means that the good guys win.
- Lampshaded in Blue Harvest:
Luke: So, you got your reward and you're leaving? Is that it?
Han: Well, when you say it that way, I sound like a douche. But yeah, that's what I'm doing.
- The Thin Red Line: In this Terrence Malick film, Pvt. Witt is constantly taunted by his superiors for being an idealistic dreamer.
- Training Day: The entire movie is about this trope.
- Animorphs. Jake's brother Tom (who is actually controlled by an alien Yeerk slug) sums the trope up when talking about morality in war:
"Honor and courage aren't what matters, not in real war. What matters is whether you win. After you win, then you start talking about honor and courage. When you're in battle, you do what you have to do. Honor and courage and all that? Those are the words you say after you've killed all your enemies."
- It's telling that by this point in this story, Jake's inner monologue is along the same lines.
- This is also what he tells himself when he sends his cousin Rachael on a suicide mission to kill Tom.
- Within the Animorphs themselves, Marco tells Cassie this a lot.
- In the Bad Future where Yeerks have conquered Andalites and humans, Cassie has become a Knight Templar terrorist happily dynamiting skyscrapers full of people. She tells Jake that now she finally understands war.
- It's telling that by this point in this story, Jake's inner monologue is along the same lines.
- The Decembrist uprising of 1825 is described in such terms for all of Russian high society in The Death of the Vazir Mukhtar; while "the people of the [eighteen] twenties" are generally idealistic if superfluous, impractical and hypocritical, the people who replace them at the forefront of high society after the failure of the Decembrist uprising are more pragmatic, materialistic and outwardly conformist (notably, both sides can be pretty cynical or the opposite regardless of this divide, just in different ways). And then there is the main character, Aleksandr Griboyedov, who is stuck awkwardly between the two groups and is very cynical and contemptuous towards both.
- The First Law series has this in spades.
- In James Stoddard's The High House, Murmur rebukes Duskin for wanting to join in the defense of the house; his father would have, but that was idealism of youth, which he never outgrew.
- In Gene Stratton-Porter's Michael O'Halloran, when Douglas rejects an official position, he gets this.
"It is painful to a man of experience to see you young fellows of such great promise come up and 'kick' yourself half to death 'against the pricks' of established business, parties, and customs, but half of you do it. In the end all of you come limping in, poor, disheartened, defeated, and then swing to the other extreme, by being so willing for a change you'll take almost anything, and so the dirty jobs naturally fall to you."
- A Song of Ice and Fire seems to run on this trope. It's particularly the focus of Sansa's character development, as she turns from an idealistic, romantic girl into a reserved, suspicious, cynical and untrusting woman.
- Inverted from the perspectives of Jaime and Tyrion. Both are cynical pragmatists that only find meaning in their lives when they reconnect with honorable agendas.
- Trapped on Draconica: Kazebar gives a Breaking Speech at the end about how idealism is foolish and everything is about power.
- Theo Bell has this exchange with his old friend Angus in a Vampire: The Masquerade spinoff novel, not long after finding out Angus was the one who'd been repeatedly trying to kill him.
- Painfully Deconstructed in the fifth book of the Wings of Fire series, as it delves within the mind of Sunny, local Wide-Eyed Idealist and The Cutie. It shows how Sunny's friends adopting this mindset, constantly dismissing Sunny's ideas on the basis of their idealistic nature, and treating her like a young child has left her with a very raw inferiority streak and a strong desire for acceptance. The fact that Sunny believes in the importance of action and is actually willing to make an effort to make the world a better place, and why this is important to her, is a huge part of her Character Development. She does become slightly more realistic, but as The Anti-Nihilist and one who constantly strives for the better of the world.
- In World War Z, this is the viewpoint of many Jerk Asses in such interviews as the one with former White House chief of staff Grover Carlson. Asked about the response of the White House to reports of the walking dead, Carlson claims it was above and beyond, and brags that Phalanx, a supposed anti-zombie drug, was pushed through the Food and Drug Administration. When the Narrator points out that Phalanx didn't work, Carlson explodes and launches into a tirade that what mattered was that a panic had been avoided, ultimately telling the interviewer to "grow up":
"Can you imagine the damage it would have done to the administration's political capital? We're talking about an election year, and a damn hard, uphill fight. ... Oh, c'mon. Can you ever 'solve' poverty? Can you ever 'solve' crime? Can you ever 'solve' disease, unemployment, war, or any other societal herpes? Hell no. All you can ever hope for is to make them manageable enough to allow people to get on with their lives. That's not cynicism, that's maturity."
- Given that this guy was personally responsible for a number of the dumbass decisions that led the world to ruin, he should feel lucky that his punishment is simply collecting manure for a biodiesel plant. Of course, his viewpoint is that his decisions kept society going long enough for the Redekker Plan to be enacted, therefore making him one of the world's unsung saviors. The reader is left hanging as to this.
- In The Witchlands, after Aeduen tells Iseult that she can't possibly be one of the Cahr Awen, she mentally scolds herself for regressing back to her childhood years and believing that she could be anything more than a failed Threadwitch. Of course, Aeduen is lying to make himself feel better about his own choices, so the story doesn't really side with Iseult on this.
- Lux in Undefeated Bahamut Chronicle is repeatedly told this by others. An excellent example is by his older and less-scrupulous half-brother Fugil. Lux and Fugil both took part in a rebellion to depose their tyrannical family, with the former defeating his opponents non-lethally and intending to spare them afterwards. Fugil killed the rest of the royal family (save for himself, Lux and their younger sister Airi), the nobles and the army, then lectured Lux on how his approach would have gotten him stabbed in the back later on.
- A creepy scene in Angel's "Blind Date". Recurring baddie Lindsey Macdonald, a flunky for the rapacious law firm Wolfram & Hart, starts to have doubts about his job. He gets lectured at by Holland, an older attorney, who reminisces about harboring the same ennui that Lindsey is currently feeling. It's a very jovial yet deeply unsettling speech.
Lindsay: Sometimes you...question things, but—
Holland: (interrupting) Yeah, I did a lot of crazy things when I was your age. Searching and all. Took me a while to realize how the world was put together and where I belonged in it. And actually the world isn't that complicated: It's designed for those who know how to use it.
- In Castle, Detective Kate Beckett has been jaded, cynical and bitter ever since her mother was murdered when Kate was a teenager and the murder was never solved. Her Character Development — helped along by her increased tolerance of, friendship with and feelings for immature and optimistic Manchild Richard Castle — has largely been centred around reawakening her optimism and hope for the future; as evidence, simply compare how much she smiles in any given episode of season one as opposed to any given episode of season five.
- Amy Pond in the new series of Doctor Who met the Doctor when she was a kid and wanted to travel with him but circumstances delayed him until she'd grown up, where she justifies her (not entirely unjustified) skepticism of him and his claims with this trope. Being the Doctor, however, he has the perfect comeback:
Amy: I grew up.
The Doctor: Don't worry. I'll soon fix that.
- In Game of Thrones, this is basically the plot arc of Sansa Stark in the first two seasons.
- Peter Petrelli on Heroes has been on the receiving end of this from practically everyone he meets, including his own family. It doesn't stop him from continuing doing whatever he thinks is the right thing.
- House is a firm believer of this, his personal mantra being "Everybody lies".
- Law & Order loves to rub the viewers' face into the political version of this trope. Then there's Abbie Carmichael who is this trope personified.
- In the Madam Secretary episode "The Detour", Chinese Foreign Minister Chen Ming shrugs off Secretary of State Liz McCord's speech about the good the US could do in Africa if China would quit undercutting them.
Liz: The United States is trying very hard to turn the page, and be a force for constructive engagement. Cleaner energy, economic diversification and greater transparency, educating and empowering women and girls.
Chen: Spare me your idealism. More importantly, spare Africa. I lived through the Cultural Revolution. My father was not so lucky. Idealism kills. Mutual interests save lives.
- In Merlin, when the title character refuses to save Mordred's life because he's destined to kill Arthur, Gaius asks what happened to the young boy who first arrived in his chambers. Merlin replies, "He grew up. And learnt the meaning of duty."
- Miss Parker from The Pretender, complete with the obligatory "What happened to you?" "I grew up" conversation in the first episode. Jared spends a reasonable amount of time throughout the series trying to revert her, however.
- Ned in Pushing Daisies gives "I grew up" as the answer to why he no longer likes Halloween. He's lying, though.
- The Scrubs episode "My Brother, Where Art Thou" is about this. After 3 of years of working at the hospital and due to Dr. Cox's influence, JD, who was originally introduced as a Wide-Eyed Idealist, has become a lot more cynical. His brother Dan, who has come to visit, is shocked by this and doesn't like the change. He tells Dr. Cox that he knows JD will never look up to him, but that he does to Dr. Cox, so he should work at being a better mentor. Surprisingly, Dr. Cox accepts his point and resolves to take the role more seriously.
- In the Six Feet Under episode "The Liar And The Whore," Karla subtly suggests this with the following line: "People don't change. They just get older, that's all."
- Tess Mercer from Smallville gives Oliver Queen the whole "I grew up" line. Although this can be described as Silly Rabbit, Romance Is for Kids!. A bit of both; she also uses it as an explanation of how she went from an environmentally crusading marine biologist to the head of Luthorcorp.
- Star Trek: Enterprise: When Captain Archer returned to Earth after the events of Season 3, where he carried a team of Space Marines, resorted to piracy, killed unarmed aliens manning a listening post, lost several crew members, and went back in time, he has taken this attitude. The other members of Earth's Starfleet, who are bursting with Roddenberrian enthusiasm for space travel, are deeply concerned as he talks about the importance of better arming ships and warfighting over exploring. They are convinced he's simply cynical, but he can't help but think that being more cynical may have saved some of his crew. It does remind Starfleet that there are civilizations out there who wants nothing more than to blow Earth up.
- When Sasha Monroe from Third Watch points out Tyrone Davis Jr's shady police tactics and how it contributes to innocent black men going to jail, he put his hand up to her face and says "Don't preach to me." Interestingly enough, Ty refused to believe his father was corrupt, yet he's going down the same slippery slope.
- Sir Humphrey has managed to reduce this to a simple aphorism in Yes, Minister:
"A cynic is a what an idealist calls a realist."
- Music example, slightly inverted: In his song "My Back Pages", Bob Dylan describes his angry-young-man cynicism of a few years earlier, and its gradual evolution into pragmatism, with the memorable (and confusing) chorus "I was so much older then / I'm younger than that now."
- Similarly, Billy Joel in "Angry Young Man":
I believe I've passed the age
Of consciousness and righteous rage
I found that just surviving
Was a noble fight...
- Green Day has at least two songs directly dealing with or referencing this, "Emenius Sleepus" and "The Grouch". The former is about a friend who underwent the process, the latter, the narrator.
- In I Fight Dragon's 'No One Likes Superman Anymore':
Cuz no one wants to know the man who stands for things we outgrow
Hes too noble and too blind
Were all older now and we dont need someone to care about
The innocence we left behind
- The Jam in "Burning Sky", though that was meant to be from the viewpoint of a character who'd embraced the capitalist system.
- Both played straight and subverted with Avril Lavigne. Her first album, made when she was just a teenager, was a poppy, punky teen fest, and "Sk8er Boi" became a hit song among preteens. Two years later and she abandoned the "immaturity" for wagnst and cynicism. Three years after that, and she's a teenager again! But now, she's put out a soft rock/acoustic album, making this a Zig-Zagging Trope.
- Happened with pseudo-anarchist folk/punk band Levellers. Their early albums were all 'times are tough but if we work together we can get past Thatcher and have a time of peace and joy and happiness'. Now, twenty or so years later their songs seem to mostly be about how the world sucks and we're all screwed.
- Oasis' "Fade Away".
- Supertramp's "Dreamer".
- "I May Not Awaken", arguably one of Enya's saddest songs. The narrator comes to this conclusion about halfway through, promptly throwing her over the Despair Event Horizon.
- Jean Anouilh's version of Antigone is a rare example of this being taken seriously as opposed to being scoffed at or framed as rationalization. The play is concerned with Antigone's willingness to die as a punishment for trying to ensure that one of her brothers gets a proper burial, which itself is a manifestation of her ideological opposition to Creon, the pragmatic ruler that's replaced her father. Her willingness to die for her principles is framed more as a symptom of youth. She can't appreciate how destructive and foolish dying for her cause might be and so winds up ruining the lives of everyone she loves and not accomplishing anything other than ideological purity. Anouilh regards her youthful lack of perspective as her hamartia.
- Cyrano de Bergerac: At Act II Scene VII, De Guiche offers us a more sophisticated examples than most, when he counsels Cyrano to study Don Quixotes chapter of the windmills... implying that Cyrano too will be betrayed by his own idealism.
- Man of La Mancha: This is the attitude of the Duke, and of Dr. Carrasco; the character he plays in the Show Within a Show.
- From RENT: "What happened to Benny? What happened to his heart, and the ideals he once pursued?"
- In Vanities, Kathy learns the hard way, after losing her boyfriend and her nervous breakdown, that her idea of "an organized life" doesn't work well in adulthood. Then the cast as a whole finds out that their friendship "isn't what it used to be".
- Subverted in Backyard Sports with pretty much every character in there. They may have grown up, but, fortunately they're just as happy as they were when they were younger kids (maybe even more.)
- In Deus Ex, two semi-major supporting characters are idealistic teenage members of La Résistance helping you battle the Ancient Conspiracy. By Deus Ex: Invisible War, long after their first plans have failed, they have grown up and become the cold-blooded, manipulative dictators of Earth and the new leaders of the Ancient Conspiracy, claiming that they did what they had to do to preserve human society.
- Also worth noting is that Nicolette and Chad were really only fighting against Majestic-12, NOT The Illuminati as a whole, so they didn't go on to join the same group they were originally fighting (and their expressed goals didn't change as much as their methods did). If you speak to Nicolette enough in the original game, it becomes obvious that she's not entirely innocent even then (and that she sees her alliance with Chad and Silhouette through very cynical eyes - considering their value as a tool of the Illuminati just like her mother did). Chad, however, may have started out more idealistic, and does give a "I can't believe I was that naive" speech in the second game.
- In Devil Survivor, Keisuke winds up playing reluctant mentor to Midori; she refuses to listen to his warnings partly because he feels this way. Over time, he grows more desperate to convince her and more cynical, until he snaps and goes Knight Templar. This doesn't help convince her that he's right, mind you.
- This exchange in Dragon Age: Origins.
Protagonist: What could the teyrn hope to gain by betraying the king?
Alistair: The throne? He's the queen's father. Still, I can't see how he'll get away with murder.
Flemeth: You speak as if he would be the first king to gain his throne that way. Grow up, boy.
- Fate/stay night's Archer is a very literal example. He is, literally, the grown-up version of the Wide-Eyed Idealist main character who followed his ideals and became a hero, gone extremely cynical over the fact that his path towards being a hero is littered with the corpses of those who had to die to keep that ideal. Ironically, in all the routes he ends up begrudgingly conceding that his past self's idealism isn't quite so bad and dies usually trusting that Shirou won't end up like him.
- Final Fantasy VI: when the heroes deliver their lines on what life is, and how love is so important to each of their lives, Kefka responds with "This is pathetic! You all sound like lines from a self-help booklet!" In fact, all his speeches near this scene convey the same message.
- Completely inverted in Final Fantasy VIII. Squall starts off believing that his own cynical, antisocial viewpoints are the correct ones, but as the game progresses and Rinoa and the friends he makes help him both emotionally mature and deal with his mental trauma, he becomes more idealistic.
- Cody Travers from Final Fight and later the Street Fighter series. While it is not actually seen in the games, multiple games tell the story of his downfall, which occur after the ending of the original Final Fight. Cody and his friends go out to save his girlfriend from the Big Bad in Final Fight. On the way, he beats up a corrupt cop named Edi, who later arrests the hero for assault in battery. Next, his girlfriend dumps him, and leaves the country to study abroad. Afterwards, he is let out of jail and tries to get revenge by fighting criminals outside. He gets arrested again, and becomes addicted to fighting within prison. He then eventually breaks out, and joins the Street Fighting cast in their tournament(s). He usually fights alongside his best friend Guy (who also comes from the Final Fight series), who is always telling Cody that he is a good person. Cody, however, usually claims that he will never be the hero again, and often states that all he has left is fighting (which he often exclaims is pointless).
- In God of War III, Kratos has such an exchange with Pandora, telling her hope is for fools. She responds with a plea that hope gives people strength. Eventually, she proves to be right as Kratos is actually empowered by hope from Pandora's Box.
- This little exchange in Dissidia: Final Fantasy between Cloud and Cecil in regards to Firion's dream of an ideal world.
Cecil: Did Firion give you his answer?
Cloud: Yeah. He says he has a dream...and that he'll keep fighting to make it come true.
Cecil: Sounds like Firion, sure enough.
Cloud: He told you?
Cecil: Yes, although he was embarrassed at first. He said he wants to create a world where flowers grow in perpetual peace.
Cloud: Sounds so...childlike.
Cecil: Honest men have honest dreams.
- From Jak X Combat Racing:
- In L.A. Noire, veteran Vice Detective Roy Earle says this to Cole Phelps when they discuss the crack down (or lack thereof) on illegal narcotics in the city.
Roy: Drugs are prohibited. Doesn't mean people don't want to take them. Limiting supply doesn't mean that we have limited demand.
Cole: I understand that. I know that the average Joe needs to unwind a little, let his hair down at the end of the week. But morphine? Heroin?
Roy: It's important to demonize hop, Phelps. Looks good in the papers. But when all's said and done, it's just another chemical like booze. A lot of people in high places think we are doing the city a favor by keeping the dope rolling into Central Avenue. Donelly certainly believes we need to keep them anesthetized.
Cole: Better jobs and opportunities would go a lot further.
Roy: Will you listen to yourself?
- This article claims that, since The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess went with a realistic art style, Nintendo ought to have made Link more "realistic", namely, by turning him into an antihero. The author's argument hinges in large part on his assertion that people were "very disappointed" with Twilight Princess because the realistic art style supposedly ought to have been paired with a non-idealistic hero. The article became Hilarious in Hindsight because, a mere three days later, The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword was revealed with an art style that was decidedly less realistic than the one in Twilight Princess, with a Link who is just as much of a normal hero as both the one in Twilight Princess and every other Link.
- In Live A Live, the former hero Hash has this attitude; he despises people in general for forgetting him after he saved the day, and considers idealistic heroes like Oersted to be stupid. He recants his position at the end, though, and tells Oersted to keep fighting so long as any one person believes in him. But when the world curbstomps Oersted's idealism too, Oersted decides to get revenge..
- Cyrus tells the hero/ine of Pokémon Diamond and Pearl that things like friendship, compassion, and love are just illusions people use to block out the horrible reality of their suffering. He then comments on the hero/ine drawing strength from their compassion.
- In Starcraft II this comes up in the cinematic A Better Tomorrow, after the heroes have broken open a prison. Matt Horner claims that the victory was breaking out all the political prisoners. They are fighting to expose Mengsk as a war criminal, build a better tomorrow, and not act of vengeance. Tosh calls this naive saying that tyranny is only ever succeed by tyranny, and all you can do is fight against the current enemy. Raynor comments that the better future will come, but those fighting out of hate (like him and Tosh) will have no place in it.
- Keeper, the boss of the Imperial Agent class in Star Wars: The Old Republic takes this attitude to Agents who make too many Light Side choices. Not so much that he disapproves in principle, but that he fears that idealism will cause the agent to burn-out.
- Blood Knight Arngrim from Valkyrie Profile creates a first impression by talking down his crippled brother Roland for doing nothing by drawing art and dreaming. Roland lashes back, since he cannot understand why Arngrim takes pleasure in killing either.
- Overwatch: Once, the organization was led by a certain soldier named Jack Morrison, who's pretty much an Ideal Hero, charismatic, compassionate and also something of a babyface, always believing in the best of people. Because of this idealism, he ended up oblivious of many darker things running beneath his organization, his friends' issues that cannot be solved with mere 'friendship and heroism is awesome', all causing people to lose faith at his organization and the goodness he radiated, and one of these friends, Gabriel Reyes, ended up launching a betrayal in their headquarter at Swiss that seemingly claimed both lives. Jack survived, but afterwards he realized that idealism got him nowhere in trying to bring peace. Now he wanders the world as a mercenary/vigilante who, while fighting the good fight, is extremely pragmatic, cynical and borderline ruthless, nothing like the Ideal Hero he was in the past, now he's Soldier: 76.
- In Persona 5, Sae Niijima is having dinner with her younger sister and ward Makoto when Makoto wonders whether their father would have supported the Phantom Thieves of Hearts. Sae then launches into a tirade against Makoto, saying that she blames her father's sense of justice for him getting himself killed and leaving her to raise Makoto, whom she regards as a burden, and believes that Makoto only has the luxury of thinking about such things because she doesn't have to work for a living. Sae immediately regrets saying this and tries to apologize, but Makoto is reduced to tears.
- In Ban G Dream Girls Band Party, Poppin'Party's band story involves them "fighting" against the realistically minded town officials who are scrapping the town's annual festival for budget reasons. They're told multiple times by the adults that that they're just kids who don't understand how the world works.
- Rachel of Dumbing of Age, previously a minor character, rips into the damaged Ruth with a brutally cynical attack on the whole idea of character redemption.
Rachel: No matter how many lies you tell, you will always be the thing you were before. You can't wallpaper over it with a sorry and a smile. It will always be there.
Redemption is a story. Redemption is not real.
- Girl Genius: Remember when we had that youthful zeal?
- In The Order of the Stick #761, Elan thinks his father is invoking this on him, and says he's often heard it but it hasn't stopped him.
Tarquin: However, isn't this just a little. . . premature?
Elan: I've been called that lots of times, but it doesn't stop me from doing what is right. And the word is "immature," Dad. Immature.
- In Sinfest, Silly fundie, God is for kids!
- In Angel of Death good liches are widely considered to be sources of annoyance by others, to the point that Kaburlduth feels the need to protest Bavandersloth's accusation that he is a "do-gooder."
- Atop the Fourth Wall frequently spoofs this attitude with the character of 90s Kid, a loud, obnoxious teenage slacker who prefers blood, guns, and grittiness to actual plot or characterization, considering hope and joy to be "kid's stuff".
- In the RWBY episode "Heroes and Monsters", Ruby Rose, despite being on the ropes, is still determined to be the hero, save the day and stop Roman Torchwick and the other bad guys from wrecking Vale. Torchwick laughs that off and tells her that if she still wants to be the hero, then she should just roll over and die like every other Huntsman in history. He proceeds to tell her that this world has no room for her type of idealism, that it should die along with her and he'll keep doing what he does best - "lie, cheat, steal and survive!" A split second later, a Griffin Grimm gives him the ultimate Shut Up, Hannibal! by eating him. Adam Taurus tells Blake Belladonna the same thing in the same episode: when she tells him that she wanted peace and equality for the Faunus races, Adam roars out that "What you want is impossible!"
- This article from Current Affairs.org criticizes a perceived lack of aspirational idealism in current speculative fiction. It notes in particular J. K. Rowling's remarks on the post-series lives of the Harry Potter characters, noting in particular that the childhood social radicalism of Hermione—especially regarding the wizarding world's enslavement of house-elves and otherwise treating intelligent magical nonhuman beings as second-class citizens—dissipates into a government job.
"Rowling has claimed that after the story ends, Hermione continues to fight for the rights of the downtrodden as an employee of the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures. (Apparently she doesnt fight very hard, or she would have done something about the departments name.)"
- Resident Emo Teen Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender believes that Aang's ideas about peace, pacifism and forgiveness are childish. While he's proven wrong in the case of Katara's need to avenge her mother, and admits as much, the question of killing Big Bad Ozai is more complicated; Aang's ultimate non-lethal victory is only made possible by a discovery that some viewers consider a Deus ex Machina, before which even Aang's idealistic friends and his previous incarnations argued that killing Ozai would be a Necessary Evil.
- The sequel comics also show that the world doesn't miraculously fix itself overnight after a hundred years of war, and that even with a Reasonable Authority Figure on both sides of an issue, there is still room for trouble and moral complexity.
- Beast Machines had Silverbolt from the previous series return half way through. Much to Blackaraknia's dismay, however, he had turned rather sour after being reprogrammed temporarily by Megatron and at first outright sneered at anyone who brought up his past point of view
Silverbolt: "I was a fool then. I believed in things."
- Grandad from The Boondocks shows heavy shades of this.
- Likewise Huey suffers a heavy case of cynicism towards society while Riley is too ignorant to care. In the comic strip, he had Cesar, who was similar to Huey but lacked his extremely jaded ideas. And MacGruder to make the comic even more cynical has Cesar moving away to deliver the final coup de grace.
- Justice League:
- When part of the Justice League is turned into children in the Unlimited episode "Kid Stuff", most of them enjoy it. Green Lantern's having fun conjuring up things, Wonder Woman's having a girly crush on Batman, and Superman's being a bit goofy. Only Batman remains focused and serious, barely changed, and he's the one who eventually wins. When they return to normal, Wonder Woman comments that it was kind of fun being a kid again. Batman responds "I haven't been a kid since I was eight years old". That's an unfortunate bit of Truth in Television. People who lost a parent to death when they were children often describe it, as adults, as "My childhood ended then." This reaction seems to be most pronounced when the child was between about 7 and 12 when the parent dies.
- An earlier variation shows up when Lobo invites himself to replace Superman (who was presumed dead). The team wants no part of him, since he clearly regards superheroics as simply an excuse to bust heads:
J'onn J'onzz: The Justice League is about more than physical power. It's about ideals, caring, helping....
Lobo: Buy me a ticket to Pukesville.
- Kaeloo: Happens all too often with Mr. Cat and Kaeloo. Kaeloo's optimism is usually crushed when she gets a dose of the real world, with Mr. Cat telling her "I Told You So".
- The Legend of Korra:
- Korra confronts this often. Her attempts to just solve problems because she's the Avatar run into local and national politics frequently, to the point where she's conned out of interfering in the Water Tribe Civil War until it's too late. When she tries to do a quid pro quo trade with the Earth Queen—she collects the Queen's unpaid taxes, the Queen turns over any airbenders in her city—the queen lets Korra do all the work and then lies about there being any people to turn over, leaving Korra with nothing.
- Suyin's refusal to step up to lead the Earth Kingdom after the Queen is assassinated in season 3 and it falls into chaos due to her fears about maybe becoming a dictator are brushed aside by Kuvira (and many fans) as her simply not being willing to do what had to be done because of her own wants, similar to Aang above. Unlike Aang, she gets burned badly for it.
- Likewise, the leaders of the other nations for assuming Kuvira would be honorable enough to work for years reuniting a kingdom (and building a cult of personality) just to hand it over to the prince who'd been living in luxury and exile the entire time.
- Even season 3 Big Bad Zaheer gets hit with this. He thought killing the Earth Queen would lead to more freedom for their subjects. Instead it lead to an even more iron-fisted tyrant than the one who came before.
- An elderly Toph even views such ideals of making the world a better place as naive. However, the moment she sees her family sacrifice themselves and fight Kuvira no matter how suicidal it was, such an act restored her faith in others' heroism.
- In Robot Chicken, The Lorax is taught by "that marketing whore" the Moolah that profit is more important than trying to impart an educational message. The Cat in the Hat, Horton and the Sneetches all express similar sentiments.
The Sneetches: We tried to teach tolerance and where did that get us? So fuck it, we'd rather make mountains of lettuce!
- In American politics, supporters of third-party candidates aren't congratulated for participating in the democratic system and standing up for what they believe in. Instead, supporters of third party candidates like Bob Barr, Ralph Nader, Cynthia McKinney, Jill Stein and Gary Johnson along with idealistic candidates on both the mainstream parties like Bernie Sanders, Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul, are often demonized by Bipartisan centrists/moderates and Republican conservatives/right-wingers on their side of the aisle and belittled by the media, with the justification that "compromise is better than idealism."
- In return, the idealists would fire back that it is simply because the system is becoming broken for while and done of keeping Status quo maintain to let anyone who is an honest person, an idealist or anyone that is not a Sleazy Politician to take office.
- This being a classic real-world example of why the gap between idealism and cynicism is actually a literal gray area in which a lot depends on the outcome. A third-party movement that succeeds can be an improvement on either party, at least in theory, from the POV of the third-party voters. But if not enough people join in the net result is often to bring about victory for precisely the party that the third-party voters would consider the worse option. Republicans see the conservatives who voted for Perot as people who effectively elected Clinton, and Democrats often say that the green in 'green party' stands for Getting Republicans Elected Every November. Hence, third parties these days tend to be in favor of things like ranked-choice votingnote or approval voting to try getting break this effect.
- The mathematics work out this way because American elections work on the basis of a simple pure pluralitynote . So if 3% of the voters vote for whom they perceive to be the best party while 48% vote for the second-best and 49% vote for the worst (again, labels are as perceived by the 3% and maybe part of the 48%), well, Nice Job Breaking It, Hero!. The trick here is that altering the election system would require the cooperation of the party or parties in charge, and it's always in their best interest to keep third-parties as shutout means as possible.
- Another critique is not so much about idealism but simply skepticism about the Holding Out for a Hero mentality of third-party and other challengers, who largely equate the power of political change with Presidential elections rather than sustaining an effective grass-roots in local, county, state and congressional elections to effectively build a party. Ralph Nader was criticized by the likes of Chomsky and others for more or less contesting in 1999 and then sitting on the margins for four years and then once again planning a third-party bid in 2003-2004. Mostly, third-party candidates run a campaign of a "little guy" changing a system all by itself without doing any of the groundwork needed to actually make that change happen. After all, the third party in American politics that achieved the most results (the Republican Party of the 1850s which is now Non-Indicative Name the Grand Old Party) worked exactly that way.
- More than one Green Party has been torn between those who want policies that completely minimize our carbon footprint and those who want a chance at actually getting power to implement the lightest of said policies. Usually, the extremists have to break off and form a pressure group.
- The fact that the Sliding Scale of Idealism vs. Cynicism on this wiki was once called the Sliding Scale of Idealism Vs Realism illustrates the sentiments for this trope, as well as the tendency to perceive Deconstruction as Darker and Edgier because they take existing tropes and genres and play them as realistically as possible, which can imply that life itself is inherently dark and edgy. Of course, it should be noted that a true deconstructionist and post-modernist would question the very idea of something being "liberal" or "real", seeing even such labels or the notion of a particular idea having a particular narrative (i.e. name, meaning, structure) as a mode of fantasy regardless of how edgy said person or idea wants to be.
- More sentiments of this trope that have been found inside and outside of this wiki have been found in how people used to perceive Darker and Edgier as more "mature" while Lighter and Softer was less mature. On this wiki, people used to cite Cerebus Syndrome and the progression towards Darker and Edgier as part of Growing the Beard while Reverse Cerebus Syndrome and Lighter and Softer were often filed under Seasonal Rot. And then there was the talk about how darker works were seen as more mature and more "adult" like and the flame wars they caused.
- In International Relations theory, the two biggest (though by no means only) schools of thought are usually referred to as Liberalism, which believes that countries can work together and that co-operation either is or should be a priority for countries in almost all circumstances and is mutually beneficial for all concerned; and Realism, which is a rather more cynical take on things that suggests all countries are/should be out for themselves at all times, are mutually hostile, and often are barely restrained from outright conflict at all times. Although realists were the ones who chose the label, so the choice was probably made with this trope in mind to suggest maturity and to downplay the 'silly' or 'naive' idealism of others. And in the middle, we have the Rationalist school, which accepts some elements of both theories.
- A political cartoon in 2008 accused John McCain of pandering to the right wing in his Republican Presidential nomination campaign with his much less moderate views than he had promoted in his 2000 campaign. When asked what happened to the "Straight-Talk Express" McCain of 2000, the cartoon version of him replied, "He lost."
- There's a saying in American politics: "A conservative at the age of twenty has no heart; a liberal at the age of forty has no brain." This was derived from a 19th-century remark by a French politician: "A monarchist at the age of 20 has no heart; a republican [small r, as in "believes in a republic"] at the age of 40 has no brain". Of course, these paint conservatism and monarchism as the more mature choices and of course today monarchism is pretty much dead as an idea, which should tell you something about that sentiment.
- A popular modern Russian saying goes "A pessimist is a well-informed optimist". Similarly, several famous people through history, including Mark Twain, have been quoted as saying a variation of: "There is no sadder sight than a young pessimist, except an old optimist".
- A good portion of the backlash against the popularity of My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic among adult males comes from people who firmly believe this to be true.