Opened. The low amount of good examples and the fact that it's a ZCE magnet indicate that there's a pretty big problem here, but I don't have any ideas at the moment.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.A rename might be necessary here because the current title doesn't really tell everyone that it needs to be:
- Recurring and
- Not a normal thing to be angry over.
The trope is suffering from massive misuse but I don't think a rename will be feasible with that many wicks. I don't know if there's anything we can really do unless there's a trope we don't have that people are using Berserk Button for and rewriting the description.
Either way, we will never get on top of almost 30k wicks with a fast growing trope like this one. I think it's better to just have a dedicated clean up thread.
Edited by MacronNotes on Feb 28th 2022 at 7:23:33 AM
Macron's notesParaphrasing the mentioned points into suggestions:
- The work needs to show that the button appears more than once and is a consistent trigger.
- The button has to "flip" the character from a generally calm/friendly state to an atypical aggressive state.
- Limit the number of buttons, if more than 3 (?), rework example into Hair-Trigger Temper instead.
- The button should be single character-specific and illogical, like Absurd Phobia. Natural anger, like Rant Inducing Slight or being upset/insulted/threatened doesn't count.
- Require examples to specify how the character behaves typically, and how exactly they become dangerous if they meet a certain button, to remove ZCE.
Edited by Amonimus on Mar 1st 2022 at 11:47:55 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupI'm pretty sure one exists, it's just not used very often, like is the problem with so many of these problem tropes.
Edited by WarJay77 on Feb 28th 2022 at 7:22:34 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessYep.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessDeferring to a cleanup thread doesn't sound like a bad idea, per what Macron said about the trope's current state.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I think the core of the issue is that the misuse is so widespread that cleaning it up is a Sisyphean task. Doing something here, like a rename, would take forever to implement but it would also have the benefit of cutting down on future issues. Meanwhile, punting this back to the cleanup thread would stop us from having to do a deep dive of 30K wicks, but it'd also let the issue continue to fester unless we're very dedicated.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessI wholeheartedly agree. The thread has thus far gotten very little attention and I doubt this thread is going to change that. As Jay said a redefinition can at least help a little in cutting back misuse.
I remember when Up To Eleven was taken to TRS and we voted to redirect it to Exaggerated Trope. We said then that we weren't going to bother with cleaning the wicks up due to how fast they were growing. I don't think this is that situation since Berserk Button is less of a Pothole Magnet. What we could do is rename and then use the thread to clean up the actual trope, like we did with "Funny Aneurysm" Moment, and What An Idiot.
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper WallSo, I admit that I overlooked both this post by Macron and the fact that there's a cleanup thread, and had I seen those, I probably wouldn't have approved this thread.
Macron and I are in agreement that this project is too much for TRS to handle, so please take this to the cleanup thread.
Paging ~Master N to let them know about this.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Renaming/redefining
Also, perhaps Recurring Ridiculous Rage as a title.
Reopened per what was said in this post from Macron.
I'll copy that post's contents here for convenience's sake:
I second taking this back to the cleanup thread after we're done with discussion and voting.
Renaming is off the table. This thread was reopened to discuss and fix issues with the definition.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 1st 2022 at 2:33:55 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Paging ~Master N to let them know that the thread was back after discussion in the meta thread.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I agree with expanding this, just slightly, so that the "must be irrational" rule isn't so strict. We can either relax our standards or just remove that rule entirely.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessExpanding by loosening the "must be irrational" rule sounds fine, though completely eliminating the rule might be a bad idea since then we'd end up including things that characters would have a good reason to get angry over, which might end up being Chairs.
I can't think of any other ideas.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 1st 2022 at 2:44:54 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.The other suggested alteration was to make it something that doesn't need to be pressed multiple times, but I'm iffier there.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessRemoving the rule completely will lead to “threatening/insulting/harming a loved one” being no longe misuse, which is no different than Beware the Nice Ones. I would also like to hear what exactly is the relaxation in consideration.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.My initial idea was to make a crowner of this post and return to cleanup, but I wouldn't mind doing the inverse of these if we're making the trope less strict to cover misuse.
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupI'd say that a pretext to the trope is that it shouldn't be something that would upset a person under normal circumstances, rather than strictly being irrational itself.
Normal people get upset over things like having a loved one threatened, for instance.
"Grandmaster Combat, son!"I mean, tbf, something being minor and inoffensive is subjective, anyway. At the very least it should be about things that makes other characters in the same universe not nearly as upset. That way we're at least not forced to use our own judgement. And if it's relaxed, that means that it could allow for things that are genuinely annoying blown out of proportion, rather than just completely nonsensical things.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessWhat would be an example of “genuinely annoying blown out of proportion”?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.Some of the motivations in Cell Block Tango comes to mind, like the woman who shot her husband for popping gum.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessTo me, the "correct" definition of Berserk Button is kinda like a Rant Inducing Slight without the buildup or rant requirement. I have seen a lot of Rant Inducing Slight and Rage Breaking Point examples but I don't remember seeing anything that be a Berserk Button as it's currently defined. Not saying that it's not a trope on its own or that it should be merged. Just an observation. A "nice character that suddenly loses their mind over a minor trigger" doesn't seem to be that common but multiple people before me have already said that.
Edited by MacronNotes on Mar 1st 2022 at 3:57:56 PM
Macron's notes
Crown Description:
Berserk Button is misused as "anything that makes a character angry". This crowner is to determine the conditions to make a Berserk Button. Vote up to maintain the requirement. Vote down to remove the requirement.
And now, time to undertake one of the biggest projects TRS will ever have.
A Berserk Button is supposed to be a specific, recurring trigger that drives an otherwise reasonable or cool person into a disproportionate rage. It gets misused so many ways that it has one of the longest entries on Square Peg, Round Trope, but basically all of the misuse can be summed up as "anything that makes a particular character mad", which is People Sit on Chairs. Specific misuse includes:
The Berserk Button Wick Check found 182 wicks, and of those only 16 matched the correct definition. Even those were somewhat of a judgement call. So this trope is in really bad shape.
I dunno what exactly to do here expect maybe a rename (which may very well be mandatory at this point just to let people know that something has changed), but I cannot think of a good name that encapsulates all three requirements.
Posting the wick check here, just in case:
Ham: Again, color's not his strong suit.
Noir: IT'S PURPLE!
Sprocket: Rowr-rowr? ROWR-ROWR?! (translation: Baggage? BAGGAGE?!) [Goes berserk, attacking the airline ticket, Doc's hat, and the telephone.]
Leonard: No.
Raj: Did you take a Band-Aid off in front of him?
Leonard: No.
Howard: Did you buy generic ketchup, forget to rinse the sink, talk to him through the bathroom door?
Raj: Adjust the thermostat, cook with cilantro, pronounce the T in often?
Leonard: No!
[Beat]
Howard: ... Did you make fun of trains?
Leonard: Beats me... he's fine with Pluto.
Scientist: Yes.
Sheldon: GET OUT.
[you stomp on him again]
Wiggler: Hey! Knock it off! That's the second time you've nailed me. Now you're asking for it, linguine breath!
Smaug: (whips around to face him) What did you say?!