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Deadlock Clock: Dec 31st 2023 at 11:59:00 PM

Update: Cleanup was deferred to this Long-Term Projects thread.

To-do list:

  • Rewrite The Dragon's description (Sandbox.The Dragon can be used for this) to account for the following definition changes made in this thread (cleanup will be moved to a Projects thread instead of being done through TRS):
    • Remove the requirement for The Dragon to be connected to a Big Bad instead of another type of major villain (Big Bad being the thing, character or otherwise, which causes the plot and must be stopped for the plot to end).
    • Remove the requirement for The Dragon to be an example of Number Two instead of being able to be another type of second-in-command (Number Two being the second-in-command of a strict hierarchy, such as in a military).

    Original post 

Note: This thread was proposed by El Rise.

First, I would like to thank War Jay 77 for i) starting the wick check and ii) giving me permission to make the OP.
The Dragon is a trope that has gone through a few definition changes. It started as the penultimate threat, quickly adopting extra meaning as the Big Bad's second. Now, the penultimate threat aspect has been scrapped. As discussed here, it's unclear how many of these concepts are meaningful and distinct, and it's also unclear exactly what definition The Dragon belongs under.
A wick check is conducted to collect usage across the wiki for analysis. The following are the results:

  • 1/148 (0.676%) of wicks are used as "penultimate threat".
  • 1/148 (0.676%) of wicks are used as "Number Two + penultimate threat".
  • 12/148 (8.108%) of wicks are used as "the Big Bad's second".
  • 9/148 (6.081%) of wicks are used as "character who is second to another character who isn't necessarily the Big Bad".
  • 3/148 (2.027%) of wicks are found as part of Five Man Band misuse / Five Bad Band remnants.
  • 3/148 (2.027%) of wicks are used as "leader of some group".
  • 23/148 (15.541%) of wicks are found to be of "other usage" (including followers of any kind).
  • 85/148 (57.432%) of wicks are ZCEs, PCEs, stray potholes or otherwise insufficient context.
  • 7/148 (4.730%) of wicks cover more than one usage of the above.
  • 4/148 (2.703%) of wicks are not sortable.

Insights:

  • The coverage of The Dragon is broad. Other than specifically second-in-commands / right hands, it is also used in varying kinds of servants, henchmen, bodyguards, (top) enforcers, allies on equal footing, etc. Even romantic partners and siblings are included in the wicks.
  • The hierarchy among characters may not be strictly defined. To elaborate, characters may have either a master-servant relationship or people on equal footing with each other, but it is generally unclear whether they are legitimately chief officers or second-in-commands.note 
  • The idea of "the subordinate whom the villainous boss favours / trusts / relies on the most" is generally consistent (i.e., trope-worthy). However, "penultimate threat" or "serving the Big Bad" aren't consistent.

Possible solutions:

  • Rename the trope into something like Villains Main Minion, redefine meaning and limits.
  • Nuke trope and yard tropable concepts.

Wick check:

The Dragon is a trope that has gone through a few definition changes. It started as the penultimate threat, quickly adopting extra meaning as the Big Bad's second. Now, the penultimate threat aspect has been scrapped. As discussed here, it's unclear how many of these concepts are meaningful and distinct, and it's also unclear exactly what definition The Dragon belongs under. This wick check is to collect usage across the wiki for analysis.
Key definitions:
  • Big Bad: The cause of all bad happenings in a story, a central source that forms the primary threat to the protagonists. Terms like "villain", "main villain" or "main antagonist" fail to convey this meaning.
  • Second-in-command: The officer next in authority to the commanding or chief officer.
  • Right hand: Someone who works very closely with another person at a similar level, helping them with their work.

Wicks checked: 148/148


    open/close all folders 

    Penultimate Threat (OG Definition) (1/148) 
  1. Awesome.The Force Unleashed: Whichever way the game ends, Starkiller goes toe-to-toe with [[TheDragon Darth Vader]] himself. In the canonical light-side ending, he takes on Darth Sidious and fights him to the point where he has the Sith Lord at his mercy.
    • Think about it: Starkiller defeats Darth Vader, who has killed plenty of more experienced Jedi, taught Starkiller himself, and curbstomped him twice early on. Then, not 30 seconds later, he fights Palpatine and wins. Keep in mind, this is the guy who orchestrated the downfall of the Jedi and was only ever pressured to where it seemed he would lose by Yoda, yet still prevailed over the Jedi Grand Master. He is the only Star Wars character who has managed to single handedly take on both Dark Lords of the Sith and put them on the ground. Fits the OG definition, because in the Light Side ending of the game, Palpatine is the final boss and Vader is the second-last boss.

    Number Two and Penultimate Threat (1/148) 
  1. Pokemon.Tropes A To I: In every organization, the Big Bad usually has a Dragon or three. These usually come in the form of Admins. Every example in this list is of evil team admins and secondary bosses, who are often fought on the way to defeat the team boss
    • Generation I and II: The Dragons of Team Rocket were Archer, Ariana, Petrel, and Proton; however, they were only given names and distinct personalities in Heart Gold and Soul Silver. In the anime, Jessie, James, and Meowth could be considered Dragons, if they were powerful enough to supplement that newfound badassery of theirs.
    • Generation III: Teams Magma and Aqua both had two Dragons, Courtney and Tabitha, and Matt and Shelley respectively. However, the only discernible things about them were that they wore capes. Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire would give them redesigns and distinct personalities.
    • Generation IV: Quite possibly the most popular, Team Galactic boasted three Dragons; Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Different in personality, same horrible fashion sense.
    • Generation V: This Generation was a bit confusing, as the Dragons seemed to be everyone in Plasma. Really, the Sages and Shadow Triad took a backseat ride on this rollercoaster of emotions and over-zealous gym contraptions. One could say that Ghetsis was N’s Dragon, but became the Big Bad in the end. Who knows? In Black and White 2, both the Shadow Triad and one of the Sages (Zinzolin) took a stance as Dragons… to Ghetsis.
    • Generation VI: Team Flare shook this up a bit; the Admins were Elite Mooks, while the Dragons were the scientists in general, and Xerosic in particular.
    • Generation VII: Early on, you're introduced to Team Skull and meet with Plumeria, who serves as the Admin to Guzma, Team Skull's leader. However... Lusamine of the Aether Foundation has Faba and Guzma. Wicke is in an elite position in the foundation, but she doesn't go along with Lusamine's scheme.
    • Generation VIII: While Team Yell has no Admins, Chariman Rose is the Big Bad, with Oleanna as his Dragon.

    Just Big Bad's Number Two (Current Definition) (12/148) 
  1. Characters.Animal Farm: Fits current definition from examples and surrounding context in Squealer's folder.
    • The Dragon: Though Napoleon has no direct right-hand man, Squealer is the closest thing there is to one. He contrasts his vicious, taciturn leader by being more cowardly, vocal and dramatic.
    • Sinister Swine: Being The Dragon of the story, Squealer helps Napoleon and the other pigs stay in power by being a cruel, manipulative propagandist.
  2. Characters.The Book Of Life: He serves as Chakal's right-hand man. Chakal is a Big Bad
  3. Characters.Brave Hero Yuusha: (Jeeves) As the butler to the Puppeteer, he acts as the right-hand man helping out with his plans. The Puppeteer is the Big Bad according to the character page, hence Jeeves fits the current definition.
  4. Characters.Ohsama Sentai King Ohger Underground Empire Bognaarok: He serves as Desnarak's right-hand man. Low on context, but seems to fit because Desnarak is the Big Bad according to his folder.
  5. Characters.Sonic The Hedgehog Film Series: (Agent Stone) To Robotnik in the first movie, which carries on into the sequel. While he and Knuckles serve as Co-Dragons, it’s shown that Robotnik fully intended all along to betray Knuckles once he had gotten the Master Emerald, firmly establishing Stone as his true second-in-command. Robotnik is the Big Bad, hence Stone fits the current definition.
  6. Characters.Yellow Submarine: The Chief's top enforcer and the most deadly of the fighters. It also counts as a Dragon-in-Chief as its far more physically dangerous than the Chief and the fact its defeat is what causes the Blue Meanies to retreat. Top enforcer of the Big Bad. Fits current definition.
  7. Myth.Robin Hood: Big Bad's second and third.
  8. Recap.The Walking Dead S 10 E 13 What We Become: In her hallucination, Michonne eventually became Negan’s right-hand woman, supplanting even Simon. Low context, but verified through research
  9. Series.Treinta Y Un Minutos: Big Bad's right hand.
    • Big Bad: Cachirula in The Movie, with sentient doll Estrella de Lana as her [[TheDragon Dragon]].
    • Off with His Head!: This is the fate for whoever attempts to escape Cachirula's tyranny in The Movie, though we never get to see any actual beheading, and the only two people that go through this are the Blonde Buffalo and Cachirula's [[TheDragon right-hand doll]] Estrella de Lana, although the latter gets better just by sewing herself back together.
  10. SoYouWantTo.Write The Next Fate Stay Night: Warriors Orochi is a video game that mashes together legendary figures from China’s Three Kingdoms era and Japan’s Warring States period, pits them against each other, and eventually teams all of them up to defeat a Big Bad from Japanese mythology and his sadistic [[TheDragon right hand woman]] from the Fengshen Yanyi. And that's just the first game! A great demonstration of how you might write characters from East Asian myths and legends, and a kickass game to boot! Big Bad's right-hand woman.
  11. Theatre.We Will Rock You: Khashoggi is Killer Queen's second-in-command. Although the example doesn't say whether Killer Queen is the Big Bad or not, the page indicates that she is the Big Bad due to being the villain who causes the bad things in the story.
  12. YMMV.Lupin IIIS 2 E 68: (Complete Monster) [[TheDragon Robert]] is the chief of staff to the corrupt casino mogul Domino, and a key participant in Domino's insurance scam to destroy the artificial island his own casino is on, then frame Lupin so they can collect the insurance money by framing Lupin for it. Neither one of them cares that a few thousand people are going to die in said casino's destruction. However, Robert goes beyond the original plan when he reveals that he set it up for Domino's daughter Nina to die in the trap. Then, he proceeds to plan on killing Domino himself and Fujiko Mine so that, with Nina and all the other potential witnesses dead, he will be the sole beneficiary of the insurance money. "Chief of staff" to a villain that, judging from the entry alone, drives the plot's conflict.

    Second to a character that's not necessarily the Big Bad (9/148) 
  1. Barbaric Bully: Most of the time, the teachers never really do anything to stop the bullying, either because they're oblivious, the bully is very good at playing the Wounded Gazelle Gambit to get off scot-free and paint their victim as the bully, or they get a kick out of seeing the victim suffer, possibly even using the bully as [[TheDragon their attack dog]]. Teacher's attack dog. Teacher isn't necessarily the Big Bad. Also carries connotations of Brains and Brawn.
  2. Characters.Dynasty Warriors Shu Kingdom: (Zhao Yun) To enemies of the Shu kingdom, particularly Wei, as he fits the role of "the enemy leader's strongest warrior and chief enforcer". Irony ensues when he's the character who's most thematically associated with dragons. Defined as "enemy leader's strongest warrior and chief enforcer". Enemy leader isn't necessarily the Big Bad or even a villain.
  3. Characters.Elden Ring Mohg: Serves as this to the unseen "Formless Mother", being its empowered champion and primary agent tasked to spread its will across the land. His title of Lord of Blood appears to be a direct equivalent of Elden Lord, just tied to the Formless Mother instead of the Greater Will. Champion / primary agent of a non-Big Bad entity.
  4. Characters.The Expanse TV The OPA: After Josep and Michio opt to stay behind on Luna due to the former's amputation, Walker is promoted to Drummer's right-hand. Drummer is supposedly a Big Good, not a Big Bad.
  5. Characters.Yandere Kanojo: To Nanami. Played With, however, since she does not fight physically, but rather uses words and schemes. Given her intelligence and competence, Sumika could be Dragon-in-Chief if not for her Undying Loyalty to and Unrequited Love for Nanami. Nanami is a Harmless Villain / Love rival according to the character page. Also, interesting how it explores the "physical / intelligent" dynamic.
  6. Literature.The Arts Of Dark And Light: Aulan to his father, Severus Patronus. Being more suited for this as a rising young officer, he leads the Severan forces in the field, liaises with their Thursian allies, and also carries out the assassination of Marcus' brother Corvinus. Severus is described on the character page as a pragmatic anti-villain, not a Big Bad.
  7. Manga.Tomodachi Game: Doubling as The Starscream, but the admins are unsurprised when Shinji, seemingly Kamishiro's right-hand man, discreetly betrays him at the last moment. He then goes on to become The Dragon for... Yutori. There's no real info on Kamishiro, and Yutori doesn't seem to be a Big Bad, or even necessarily a villain.
  8. PlayingWith.Grey And Gray Morality: Bob is revealed to be [[TheDragon the right hand man]] for a invokedChaotic Evil emperor who is a Bad Boss to his own underlings/servants and a tyrannical monster to the people of his village For the Evulz, while the love for her country, motivates Alice to be a better person. It is now easier to tell who to root for and who to root against. As a hypothetical, it's not clear if the villain is a Big Bad.
  9. Recap.Obi Wan Kenobi Part VI: The Emperor shows up in the final Darth Vader scene, reminding the audience that in spite of Darth Vader's role as the Big Bad of this series, he is still just The Dragon to Darth Sidious. By design, this means that Palpatine isn't a Big Bad.

    Found as part of Five Man Band misuse / Five Bad Band remnants (3/148) 
  1. Characters.Steven Universe Yellow Diamonds Court: Five-Man Band: An interesting example as they didn't fit this format from what we see of them initially.
    • The Leader: Doc, the one who gives out orders.
    • The Dragon: Eyeball, who's probably the smartest and most dangerous of the Rubies. Found in a Five-Man Band example with wrong indentation. Unsure how being the smartest and most dangerous makes one a dragon.
    • The Evil Genius: Navy, who proves to be an excellent manipulator.
    • The Brute: Army, the most agressive Ruby.
    • TheDarkChick: Leggy, the youngest member and very likely the least malicious.
  2. Series.Kikaider: Five-Man Band: Two examples in this now-deleted tree
  3. Roleplay.Trans 9: Five-Man Band: The Strike Team. Essentially the ship's secret police, given authority to do what needs doing, no matter the methods or who they do it to.
    • The Big Bad: Major Motoko Kusanagi- Leader of the group, and the one who hand-picked the members.
    • The Dragon: Tenaya- She's very versatile, and will be sent on almost every mission.
    • The Evil Genius: Mei-Xing- She is a mage that relies on spell formulae, and has spent years studying magic, history, mechanical engineering, and architecture, among other things, to make her burglary jobs easier.
    • The Brute: Ronon Dex- A very brutal and skilled fighter, he's bound to show his face in any combat mission, despite being an unmodified human.
    • The Dark Chick: Dean Winchester- About the only truly decent person on the team.

    Leader of some group (3/148) 
  1. Anime.Agent Aika: Bianca is the leader of the Golden Delmos and the one with the biggest grudge against Aika. This character is a leader of some group and has a grudge against another character.
  2. Fanfic.One Piece Final Holy War: Sabo, leader of the Knights of D. Leader of some group.
  3. Fanfic.Seven Days In Sunny June: Cantata Blast, the leader of the SIRENs. Leader of some group.

    Other usage (23/148) 
  1. Shadow Archetype: Anti Heroic Shadows also tend to be cast as The Lancer or The Rival to The Hero. More villainous Shadows often become The Dragon, though rarely the Big Bad. Naturally, not all Lancers, Rivals, and Dragons are Shadows. Uses it in the context of a hero's shadow, which is a separate type of usage
  2. Characters.A Series Of Unfortunate Events 2017 Antagonists:
    • The Dragon: (Esmé Squalor) The most unhinged and threatening ally to Count Olaf shown yet. He also doesn't have as much control over Esmé and she can and often will act as an independent agent while chasing her own plans, including her relationship with Olaf and obtaining her Sugar Bowl. "Ally".
    • Ascended Extra: While the Hook-Handed Man has always been one of the more prominent members of Olaf's troupe in the books he was never implied to be anything more than just another member for Olaf to use when he felt like it. Here he's upgraded into being Olaf's [[TheDragon Dragon]] and is the member of the troupe with the most screentime. He even sometimes gets scenes or roles that other minions got in the books. See below.
    • The Dragon: (The Hook-Handed Man) Seems to be Olaf's right hand man, or at least the closest thing to one, as he is often given the more important tasks (keeping an eye on the children usually) and is usually seen as the one bossing around the other members of Olaf's Troupe. "Seems to be" violates Examples Are Not Arguable. His character folder says he is one of Olaf's minions.
  3. Characters.Code Geass Lelouch Of The Resurrection: (Shalio) While he is nominally the ruler of Zilkhistan, he leaves all matters of administration to his sister and focues on piloting. He's Zilkhistan's most skilled pilot and is a match for Suzaku. His sister is the Big Bad, but context doesn't indicate that he's her second / subordinate.
  4. Characters.Kamen Rider 555 Orphnochs:
    • Villain Decay: (Itsuro Takuma) Starts off as a formidable-enough threat but by the end of the series he's become little more than Kitazaki's whipping boy. See below.
    • The Dragon: (Kitazaki) The strongest of the Lucky Clover and the one who gets sent in when they really mean business. Rather appropriate considering his dragon motif. The strongest of a team of four elite assassins who work for an evil corporation. Rubber suit has dragon motif.
  5. Characters.Kingdom Come: To the Braintrust, a pair of big-brained villains that are apparently pushing him and the Minutemen to attack the refugees. Character is being pushed into doing evil things for others
  6. Characters.X Com UFO Defense: The entire Ethereal race serve as this to the Alien Brain. An entire race serving one Big Bad
  7. ComicBook.The Secret Service: (Politically Incorrect Villain) James Arnold gives horribly offensive nicknames for his disabled henchmen. For example his [[TheDragon Dragon]] with leg prosthesis is nicknamed Gazelle. Just "henchman". Not necessarily penultimate threat or second-in-command.
  8. Daredevil2015.Tropes C To E: Nobu, Fisk's criminal partner whom Daredevil has the most trouble with (outside of Fisk himself). Nobu gets upgraded to the main villain in the second season when the Hand becomes the primary antagonist. The villain's partner who later becomes a Big Bad, not necessarily a follower
  9. DragonBallSuper.Tropes D To I: Refers to servant of a master. The former isn't necessarily the second-in-command, while the latter isn't necessarily the Big Bad.
    • Subverted with Whis. Although he is a servant to Beerus and is much more powerful than even the God of Destruction, he tends to sit back and let things play out. He even keeps Beerus from destroying the Earth because he's still eating. "A Servant".
    • When Sorbet was in command of the Frieza Force, Tagoma and Shisami were his Co-Dragons. After Tagoma takes a level in badass and jerkass, he became Frieza's sole dragon.
    • Once Ginyu takes Tagoma's body, he become Frieza' dragon once again.
    • Played With with Vados. She is Champa's servant and is Whis' equal in power, but she allows Champa to do whatever he likes and even helps him like destroying planets on his order. However, she does choose what orders she wants to follow and will interpret Champa's order loosely to troll him. "Servant".
    • Whis theorizes that Goku Black was created by a wish from the Super Dragon Balls to act as Zamasu's servant and help him with his plan to destroy mortals. At the same time, Whis also notes that Goku Black being created by the Super Dragon Balls doesn't explain why he has similar ki to Zamasu. Goku Black and Zamasu also don't really have a servant and master relationship since Zamasu calls him a kindred spirit. In the end, this turns out to be a subversion. Black is a version of Zamasu who took over Goku's body, so they're equals in rank. Servant to a master.
  10. Film.The Tax Collector: Gata, who is also Conejo’s girlfriend, and is just as vicious as he is. Girlfriend, and little other exploration of their dynamic.
  11. Film.White Lightning: Bama has a 7ft tall goon named Bones. Just a goon
  12. Film.Witchouse: Elizabeth Le Fey serves as this to her ancestor Lilith, resurrecting the witch and becoming her servant. Describes a Big Bad's servant, but not necessarily a second in command or penultimate challenge
  13. Film.Zenon: In the first film, Parker Wyndham is the mogul who owns the space station, and sets out with his assistant Lutz to implant a computer virus that will destroy it, killing everyone inside, so he can collect the insurance money. The Big Bad's assistant, in a corporate employee sense.
  14. HumanoidAbomination.Comic Books: American Vampire contains some examples such as Dracula (depicted as a humanoid being seemingly made out of shadows that can drive people insane with his presence) and the Japanese vampires (xenomorph-looking aberrations that can infect humans in a matter of minutes), but the biggest one in the series is [[TheDragon The Gray Trader]]. Think the Slenderman in a world where several vampire breeds and bloodlines exist, and he is the most fearsome thing around. He is no vampire, but actually a human who became the champion and protector of an Eldritch Abomination. As the last sentence says, he protects and fights for an abomination
  15. Literature.Creature Of Havoc: Vallaska Roué has supervised Marr's enterprises since he first became an evil overlord, recruited the other major villains, and is absolutely loyal to his boss. Zharradan has no such loyalty towards him, and in the Bad Ending, the Creature's first task is to execute him for allowing it to reach Zharradan. A villain's follower, not necessarily a number 2
  16. Manga.Cyber Blue: Galgo the Lion and Balta the Doberman are the most powerful enforcers of Gaza. Used as the strongest minions
  17. Pantheon.Eye Colors: Specific to Dagon: Demon In Sheep's Wool, Only Female Prince of Hell, Called Prince Rather Than Princess, [[TheDragon Lucifer's Attack Dog]], Burned To Death, Cute and Psycho Used as an attack dog
  18. PlayingWith.Useless Useful Spell: The Instant Death channels the power of the Big Bad, so the bosses, who are [[TheDragon his lieutenants]], are immune to it. Multiple, equally ranked followers
  19. Recap.The Golden Crown: Harry is devastated and joins a Christian group heading to Athens - with a trial of Christians approaching, they seek to secure representation. Harry soon discovers Jesse, who has been living on the streets again. He reveals that they never made it to Ephesus. On a stopover in Athens, Symeon became severely sick, and in the year or so it took to recover, the Christian persecutions started. He also reveals that Epigonus has [[TheDragon two Scythian bodyguards]], that make rescuing Mary very difficult. The two scope out Epigonus's mansion, but are spotted by the Scythians and pursued through the day and night. Jesse evades capture, but Harry does not. He is thrown into prison with the other Christians. "Bodyguard" may not necessarily be second-in-command or penultimate threat.
  20. Recap.Tintin The Blue Lotus: Mitsuhirato is this to Rastapopoulous, managing the local Chinese affairs of the latter's opium-trafficking ring. A high ranking follower of the villain
  21. Series.Single Parents: In "JOUST!", Emma and Amy serve as Rory's running mates, and after winning the election, his enforcers. A pair of "enforcers" for what's just a tyrannical school president in one episode
  22. Toys.Mighty Max: Warmonger to Skull Master. The "Skull Mountain" playset even describes him as "Skull Master's Evil Henchman." Just "henchman". Not necessarily penultimate threat or second-in-command.
  23. VideoGame.Autumn Leaves: James, though not of his own free will. Arthur manipulated him into killing Cartwright, and if he's freed of his programming, is intensely remorseful of the act. Not evil, and doesn't seem to be a follower of the big bad aside from the manipulation
  24. WebAnimation.Ninjai The Little Ninja: Sakuri of the Red Dragon clan, who can summon an actual flying dragon. Can summon a dragon.

    ZCE, PCE, stray potholes or otherwise insufficient context. (85/148) 
  1. Character Perception Evolution: Juzo Sakakura was at first vehemently hated for his needlessly violent behavior to the point that an entire offshoot of the Danganronpa subreddit was created solely to bash him. In particular, the fandom despised him for his role as an Unwitting Instigator of Doom given the incident when he contemptuously insulted Hajime Hinata over his lack of talent helped lead to the latter's Start of Darkness by pushing him towards the program that would turn him into [[TheDragon Izuru Kamakura]]. Contextless pothole.
  2. Cool Old Guy: In the first TRON film, Walter Gibbs and his digital counterpart Dumont fall into this territory. Gibbs was the guy who founded Encom, but was more interested in scientific development than money. He invented the laser that got it all started. He was also the only person on-screen who dared to tear Dillinger a new one to his face over the way things were run. His counterpart, Dumont, was the one who allowed Tron to get in contact with Alan via his tower and download the upgrade that eventually destroyed Master Control. [[TheDragon Sark's]] forces eventually catch him, and he's remarkably snarky and sarcastic to them, even in the face of certain de-rez. Contextless pothole.
  3. Now That's Using Your Teeth!: Mashle: Magic and Muscles": Mash attempt this against [[TheDragon Master Doom]]'s BFS. Doom knows full well that Mash can absolutely pull it off, so at the last second he raises the sword to cut Mash's eyes. Which leads to the even more absurd scenario of Mash catching the sword with his eyelids. Contextless pothole.
  4. One-Letter Name: Professor Z, The Dragon of Cars 2. (short for Zündapp) Contextless pothole.
  5. Psycho Knife Nut: Contextless potholes.
  6. Quick Draw: Contextless potholes.
    • Demonstrated in the film of Angels & Demons where The Dragon holds up a pilfered police badge to distract a pair of policemen, then brings up his pistol and guns them both down before they can react.
    • Togetherly Long: The evil Emperor Von Mal is quite quick on the draw due to all his hours spent playing cowboys with [[TheDragon Teeves.]]
  7. Stealing from the Till: In Dragon Age: Origins, [[TheDragon Arl Rendon Howe]] is helping himself to silver from the royal treasury (seemingly uncaring of the fact that Ferelden's army is desperately underfunded and trying to fight a Civil War with their own people, one triggered primarily by his and Loghain's brutality and incompetence, while simultaneously trying to fight off the darkspawn horde moving up from the south. One of the Warden's side missions involves swiping said silver from a warehouse in Denerim before Howe can ship it to his private estate. Contextless pothole.
  8. Sword Sparks: One Piece: Downplayed during Zoro's battle against The Dragon to Sir Crocodile, Mr. 1, who can create any metallic weapon from his body, including drills. When Zoro strikes them, he's genuinely surprised that sparks kick up and wonders for a moment how fast they're really going. Contextless pothole.
  9. ASongOfIceAndFire.Tropes A To D: Qyburn to Cersei, Gregor Clegane to Tywin. ZCE.
  10. AdaptationalBadass.Western Animation: Oddly enough, done with Warmonger in Mighty Max. Warmonger had only one appearance in the toyline the show was based off of, the playset "Mighty Max Trapped In Skull Mountain." In the corresponding mini-comic Warmonger is depicted as an ineffectual minor villain whose only accomplishment of note was getting splattered by friendly fire from Skullmaster's catapult. In the cartoon, he's The Dragon to Skullmaster and a capable villain in his own right, who's even managed to stand his ground against resident badass Norman a time or two. Doesn't explain what makes him a dragon
  11. Anime.Genesis Of Aquarion: Other than "this character yearns for and is very loyal to another", The Dragon pothole fails to convey sufficient context regarding what relationship the two have (Master-servant? Equals?). By looking at the examples alone, it is unknown whether they are even villains in the first place.
  12. Awesome.Dragonslayer: Vermithrax isn't the only one who gets these moments. When [[TheDragon Tyrian]]—who has murdered two of Galen Brandwarden's friends—finally confronts Galen as he's trying to prevent the latest sacrifice, he explains that Galen will have to kill him to stop it. Galen hits back with this gem:
    Galen Brandwarden: I have plenty of reasons to kill you that have nothing to do with this sacrifice.
    • The ensuing fight scene is also pretty damn awesome for the both of them. Galen gets awesome points for fighting with an armed, trained soldier, and Tyrian gets them for fighting a guy with a magic spear that effortlessly slices through metal. Contextless pothole.
  13. Awesome.Soul Eater: Ragnarok spends the first arc as The Dragon and the Body Horror and then seems to be permanently trapped as a muppet. He gets his CMOA when he refutes his new found status as comic relief by pulling off a Barehanded Blade Block against a Big Fucking Chainsaw and then knocking the baddie on his ass just by shouting at him. Doesn't explain how he's The Dragon
  14. Awesome.Storm Front: At the Varsity, Harry casually puts up a barrier to block gunfire from an attacker, while Hendricks, The Dragon of Marcone guns him down.
  15. Characters.Alex Rider Scorpia: [[spoiler: Would be this if he lived longer.]] ZCE.
  16. Characters.Bloodborne Main Characters: [[spoiler:Willingly or not, he serves as this to the Moon Presence.]] ZCE.
  17. Characters.Da Vincis Demons: To Sixtus. ZCE.
  18. Characters.Marvel Comics Emma Frost: After she's possessed by the Phoenix Force in Avengers vs. X-Men, she becomes The Dragon to Cyclops' Big Bad. Contextless Big Bad and The Dragon potholes.
  19. Characters.Falling Skies:
    • Appears to be The Dragon to the Overlord that Tom saw, and is actually the leader of the Skitter resistance. Contextless pothole.
    • To her Overlord. ZCE.
  20. Characters.Ghost Rider Rogues Gallery: (Kick The Son Of A Bitch) She causes The Dragon to be sent falling down to his death. Also, when she rips off Malachi's wings at the end of the volume. Contextless pothole.
  21. Characters.I Am Setsuna: (The Reaper) [[spoiler:To the Dark Samsara.]] ZCE.
  22. Characters.Men In Black Films: ZCE.
    • (Charlie & Scrad) Before Jarra shows up.
    • (Jarra) To Serleena, after Charlie and Scrad disappear.
  23. Characters.Mixels: Appears to be this to King Nixel.
  24. Characters.Queen Of All Oni:
    • (Hebi) The Dragon: Her status as General seems to outrank Left and Right's position as bodyguards. Unclear context.
    • (Ikazuki) The Dragon: To Tarakudo. ZCE.
    • (Hiruzen) The Dragon: To the Elders. ZCE.
  25. Characters.Realm Of The Mad God Enemies: (Daichi the Fallen) To his master, the Demon Lord Xil. Too bad his master is such a Bad Boss... Unclear whether Xil is the Big Bad. Daichi's folder indicates he's the "High Monk" of Xil, but it is unclear whether he is the penultimate threat, the second-in-command, or just some lackey.
  26. Characters.Ringing Bell: Chirin grows up to become this to the Wolf. ZCE.
  27. Characters.Shin Megami Tensei II: Insufficient context.
    • The Dragon: (Zayin) Starts out as this to the Center, but ultimately, he becomes this to YHVH, except at the end of the Law path, though YHVH is so uninvolved outside of his general plans that Zayin is much more of a Big Bad than YHVH is.
    • The Dragon: (Gimmel) To the Archangels.
    • The Dragon: (Center Elders) [[spoiler:Zayin and Gimmel act as Co Dragons until Zayin defects. The males are seemingly this to the fake YHVH, but in truth, their insanity created him. Gabriel acts as one of the Dragons to YHVH, albeit the only sane one.]]
  28. Characters.The Vampire Chronicles: Becomes this to Akasha, for a while. Before betraying her. ZCE.
  29. Characters.Yin Yang Yo: (Coop) To the Night Master in season 1 prior to his Heel–Face Turn. ZCE.
  30. Characters.Zap Dramatic: (Duke Crabtree) To Rolf Klink Spoilered ZCE.
  31. ComicBook.Machine Teen: Officer Michaels. ZCE.
  32. DarthWiki.Summers Dawn: ZCE.
    • To Bryce
    • To Cheryl
  33. Fanfic.Born To Be Wilde: The first scene is of The Dragon getting a phone call from the unseen Big Bad. It ends with them mentioning Nick Wilde, who then first appears in the next scene.
  34. Fanfic.Dangerverse: Patroclus and Theodore Nott are pretty much the canonical Lucius and Draco Malfoy. The Dangerverse's version of Lucius and Draco have other roles, on opposite sides, as The Dragon and The Big Guy respectively.
  35. Fanfic.Harry Riddle: (Overlord Jr.) Harry (with Draco being The Dragon jr.) ZCE.
  36. Fanfic.Magna Clades: Onyx. ZCE.
  37. Fanfic.Saerang: The main tragedy driving the story forwards: because they met him first, he helped them, and is their sole source of information on this new world, Aegon and the Golden Company are completely unaware that they are being manipulated by [[TheDragon Sauron]] into working for Morgoth in his omnicidal war against the peoples of Beleriand. Contextless pothole.
  38. Film.Bunraku: Killer #2, who's even referred to as this by the narrator.
  39. Film.Forsaken: Gentleman Dave starts out as The Dragon, but when he objects to the Psycho for Hire behavior of Frank and the other men, James McCurdy has Frank handle forcing the farmers off their land, keeping Gentleman Dave around to handle John Henry if he decides to get involved. A Co-Dragons example that never explains how Dave was The Dragon
  40. Film.Harriet: (Super Hero Origin) Several reviewers have noted that the movie has some elements similar to a superhero's origin story.
  41. Film.Kamen Rider X Kamen Rider Fourze And OOO Movie War Mega Max: (Mythology Gag) The Super Galaxy King is a reference to the Big Bad of Eight Riders vs. Galaxy King, The Movie for Skyrider, which had him team up with the same Legendary Seven Riders who appear in this movie. The Dragon to him, Suddendath, is a homage to Suddendas, who was The Dragon to the original Galaxy King. Contextless Big Bad and The Dragon potholes.
  42. Film.Spaceballs: (Oh, Crap!) Everyone in the bridge of the Spaceball One when Dark [[TheDragon Helmet]] orders the ship to go to Ludicrous Speed. Contextless pothole.
  43. Film.The Last Of The Mohicans: (It's Personal with the Dragon) Magua is The Dragon to Montcalm but is undoubtedly the heroes primary nemesis throughout the movie. The Dragon pothole fails to convey sufficient context regarding Magua and Montcalm's relationship. Also, is Montcalm a Big Bad or villain?
  44. Film.Theatre Of Blood: The 'Stage Manager'.
  45. Foil.Literature: (Last Legionary) Keill Randor and [[TheDragon The One]] are physical foils to one another. Keill's a superhumanly athletic man with Unbreakable Bones, while The One is a crippled dwarf in a giant suit of Powered Armour. Insufficient context other than "these two characters are opposites". How do the two interact? Is Keill a villain?
  46. Franchise.Transformers: (Tactical Superweapon Unit) Transformers: Super-God Masterforce introduced the Godmasters, who were (prior to the introduction of the Thirteen Original Primes) the most powerful Transformers in existence barring Unicron. Among other things, their command of Chokon Power note  granted them the ability to use Elemental Powers (Ginrai had a fondness for fire and lightning, while [[TheDragon Overlord]] had a preference for wind) as well as the ability to regenerate from almost any injury near-instantly. The presence of even one of the Godmasters would've swung the Great Offscreen War between the main Autobot and Decepticon forces in space in their factions' favour, but luckily at the end of the series when the Godmasters and their comrades left Earth their power had been greatly reduced thanks to events of the finale. In fact, God Ginrai, the mightiest of the Godmasters, was killed off in the sequel series with comparative ease by Deathsaurus. Contextless pothole.
  47. GodzillaThreshold.Literature: Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series: in the War of Power, the good guys constructed the Choedan Kal, two devices (one for use by a male, one for use by a female) that could draw astronomical amounts of the One Power in order to seal the Dark One away in his prison. Later used to cleanse the poisoned male half of the Power during the climax of book 9, Winter's Heart (during which the female Choedan Kal is destroyed). In The Gathering Storm, Rand at first thinks that the male Choedan Kal is the key to defeating the Dark One, but eventually realizes that it won't work. At the end of the book, he destroys it, knowing there may well be another (and better) way to defeat the Dark One this time around. He turns out to be right: the solution is (manipulating The Dragon into) using another power he had previously decided was too dangerous.
  48. LetsPlay.Battlefailed: Stuzang.
  49. Literature.City Trilogy: Ford Tasso is this to the Cardinal and later Capac Raimi. Paucar Wami supposedly filled this role in the past as a hitman outside the Cardinal's regular forces, but Procession of the Dead and Hell's Horizon both show him returning to the City from years abroad.
  50. Literature.Crown Duel: Baron Debegri is this for Galdran ZCE.
  51. Literature.The Garden Of Sinners: The films cut out a good number of things from the novel, such as character backstory. This is especially notable in the sixth film, where [[TheDragon Satsuki]] is reduced to a flat villain as opposed to the more rounded character in the novels. Contextless pothole.
  52. Literature.The Hexslinger Series: Chess starts out as the Dragon to Rook; Rook later becomes the Dragon to Ixchel.
  53. Literature.The Last Rune: The Pale King to Mohg
  54. Literature.The Moonshae Trilogy: Bhaal has a number of these, being a god. ZCE.
  55. Literature.The Sunder Of The Octagon: Alaskadie. ZCE.
  56. Manga.Akagi: Suzuki to Washizu. ZCE.
  57. Manga.Nazca: [[TheDragon Shiogami]] has an impressive, gravity-defying hairdo in his ancient "Jigami" persona. Contextless potholes.
  58. Manga.Otogi Matsuri: Kago Shusaku, the evil onmyoji priest who serves as the main antagonist, and who seems to be second only to the Sealed Evil in a Can. Not made clear if Kago works for this evil or is just a separate entity.
  59. Manga.The Yagyu Ninja Scrolls: The Spears function as this for Akinari, but most specifically Koshichiro. Later on, Dohaku takes this role, although he's really... What does "this" mean? Insufficient context.
  60. MazingerZ.Tropes D To F: Baron Ashura. ZCE.
  61. NeverwinterNights2.Tropes 0 To F: Garius. ZCE.
  62. OhCrap.Pro Wrestling: On the 5/9/13 episode of Impact, Aces And Eights are on a roll, Bully Ray and [[TheDragon Devon]] are about to put Sting through a table with a 3D...when Abyss returns and charges the ring. Bully Ray looks like he's seen a ghost and he and Devon can only stare like Deer in the Headlights as Abyss barrels towards them while Tazz's Smug Snake mentality dissolves into a Villainous Breakdown. The only Aces & Eights member present who doesn't have this reaction is Anderson, who quickly finds out why everyone else did when Abyss just runs right over him without even stopping. Contextless Big Bad and The Dragon potholes.
  63. Pantheon.Words: Potholed under the name "Garon" in one herald section, with no other context
  64. Recap.Eureka Omega Girls: (Call-Forward) As well as stealing an unknown amount of the GD database, [[TheDragon Dekker]] alludes to having left something in the mainframe. Contextless pothole.
  65. Series.Alcatraz:
    • In the 1960s, Tiller and Dr. Beauregard served as this to the Warden, though Tiller had hints of The Starscream as well.
    • In the present day, Tommy Madsen seems to serve as this to the Warden.
  66. Recap.Gears Of War: Continuing their way towards Alpha Squad, Delta clears out the last of the Seeders using the Hammer of Dawn, which finally brings back the transmission to COG. They then fight their way out of the House of Sovereigns to clear out an open area of the Locust Drones in front of the building. Here, Delta is finally able to meet up with the rest of Alpha Squad, and meet Corporal Damon Baird in the process, who was carrying the Resonator, and then stashes it away on Cole Train's back for him to carry it around. However, their position is then suddenly attacked by a Locust army led by [[TheDragon General RAAM]]. During the confusion, RAAM manages to come up behind Lieutenant Kim, and fatally stabs him in the chest. Unable to face RAAM's army, Marcus and Dom retreat with Alpha Squad back into the Tomb they were bunkered in, and block the door.
  67. Roleplay.Resonating Spirits: Xeno ZCE.
  68. Series.I Zombie: Just a bunch of named characters.
    • Julian, aka The Candyman, Blaine's most faithful employee.
    • Rita, Du Clarke's assistant and daughter.
    • There's also Janko, Du Clarke's head of security at Max Rager.
  69. Series.The Immortal 1969: Fletcher, for Maitland.
  70. Series.Ship To Shore: The Defoes during Season 2, or at least Rosalind. Victoria-Elizbeth seems to be a kid [[TheDragon dragon]]. Insufficient context.
  71. SouthPark.Tropes A To D: None of these have context
    • Kenny often acted as this to Cartman before his semi-permanent death in Season 5. Afterwards, butters usually fills the role.
    • Cthulhu more or less became this to Cartman in "Mysterion Rises".
    • General Disarray to Professor Chaos.
  72. TearJerker.Jade Empire: You can spiritually enslave [[TheDragon Death's Hand]]. When your party objects, you can spiritually enslave them. And you can steal the power of the Water Dragon. You will never feel so bad for doing anything else in a videogame. Contextless pothole.
  73. VideoGame.Atlantica Online: (Token Evil Teammate) The Puppeteer Rin, who is the boss's [[TheDragon dragon]] during the Empress quests. She is the only character whose skills all have a drawback: one of them prevents the enemy from receiving heals but also makes them immune to offensive magic, another buffs an ally but makes them lose control, and the last one sacrifices an ally to buff herself. Contextless pothole.
  74. VideoGame.Bangai O: The early levels in the original game have fairly simple bosses that shouldn't give you too much trouble (especially since Sabu is fought in the first four). Then, you get to [[TheDragon 8]]6, level 8's boss. She uses reflective lasers like Mami's, forcing you to use EX attacks and keep your distance more effectively in battle.
  75. VideoGame.Bloody Roar: Ryoho, literally. ZCE.
  76. VideoGame.Deus Ex: The opening cinematic not only identifies the Big Bad and The Dragon and their current spheres of influence, but also that a certain woman in a dragon dress is affiliated with them, UNATCO has a puppet leader in place and the conspirators are investing in, amongst other things, an electronic sentience. The developers seemingly realised they were giving away a bit much, as the intro for the later-released PS2 version of the game cuts out most of the spoilers mentioned, and taking pains to hide (for the most part) the Big Bad and Dragon's identities.
  77. VideoGame.Dubloon: Bradley.
  78. VideoGame.Echoes Of Mana: The Ebon Knight is this to Dema, the Evil Twin of the Mana Goddess. ZCE.
  79. VideoGame.Iron Harvest: Colonel Zubov is this to Fenris. Commented out ZCE.
  80. VillainSong.Theatre: The third song, "It has not to be done", features the Thugs (led by [[TheDragon the Griso]]), threatening Don Abbondio, the town priest, saying that it will end bad for him, should he ever marry the titular betrothed. It's mostly intended as comedic, especially when they mock him, but it is still frightening when you realize that, in a time and place that saw Vatican at its maximal power, Don Rodrigo is not afraid to threaten a man of Church.
  81. WebVideo.Cinema Sins: (Actor Allusion) In the EWW video for Mission: Impossible II, Jeremy refers to [[TheDragon Hugh Stamp]] as "The Duke". Richard Roxburgh was the actor who played both Hugh and the duke. Contextless pothole.
  82. WesternAnimation.Wishology: The Lead Eliminator in particular after he transformed into the Destructinator.
  83. YMMV.Carrie 1976: (Adorkable) P. J. Soles portrays Norma as this. She may be The Dragon to Chris' council of high school villainy, but she is so dorky and cute you kind of want to let it slide. Especially after seeing her get her hair done in the salon, and still wearing her trademark hat on top of the dryer. Unclear whether Chris's council is the cause of all the bad things in the story (i.e., Big Bad). Unclear whether Norma is the penultimate threat, the second-in-command / lieutenant, bodyguard, some lackey, etc.
  84. YMMV.Cut And Run: [[TheDragon Quecho]]'s demise with him covered in foam looks rather silly. Contextless pothole.
  85. YMMV.Thirteen Storeys: Tobias Fell is a reclusive billionaire who, upon realizing the consequences of his past actions due to being haunted by their ghosts, attempts to avoid them by passing them on to unlucky victims, one of whom is a little girl. Fell has Banyan Court built using the dead bodies of workers and disagreeable business partners, in order to create a kind of spiritual Faraday cage. Fell has anyone who dares to report anything other than his official company lines suffer either by torture or death. When the party is infiltrated by a journalist, Fell has the journalist beaten by [[TheDragon Max]], only sparing his life to force him to watch. Fell then has the participants eat part of his own severed leg before attempting to have them murder a member of an impoverished community he ruined, deriding the man as "scum|". When his plans are foiled by the participants overpowering Max, Fell still attempts to have them kill the victim anyway with the offer of money, unable to see how anyone could value a human life over material gain.

    Covers more than one usage of the above (7/148) 
  1. Characters.Art Of Fighting: Both are about the same character
    • Plays this role in the contest of the game and nominally she's working for Wyler. ZCE
    • It would seem that she's either Wyler's [[TheDragon underling]] or partner, but she's actually working undercover to stop him. Used as "the antagonists underling, it's unclear how evil or influential Wyler is
  2. Characters.Harry Potter Draco Malfoy:
    • The Dragon: Draco is this to his family and to the Slytherin house. ZCE.
    • Right for the Wrong Reasons: He's technically correct when he accuses Snape in Half-Blood Prince of aspiring to take his father's place as The Dragon to Voldemort. Except Snape isn't seeking glory or prestige among the Death Eaters. As Dumbledore's mole in the Death Eaters he wants to make sure that he's Voldemort's preferred servant over a truly loyal one like Lucius. It might have been Bellatrix's own suspicions of Snape influencing Draco, especially since he spent the entire summer with her practicing occlumency. "Preferred servant" to the Big Bad.
  3. Characters.Minecraft Story Mode:
    • Dragon Ascendant: (The Wither Storm) While it initially acts as The Dragon for Ivor, it eventually grows a mind of its own and becomes an even bigger problem than Ivor ever was. Not a second-in-command, but a creature created by the Big Bad before it went out of control.
    • The Dragon: (Mevia) To Hadrian. ZCE.
  4. Characters.Penny Dreadful:
    • The Dragon: (Madame Kali / Evelyn Poole) To Lucifer in Season Two. She's his most visible and powerful agent, and the one that drives the plot of the season. Her folder indicates she's the Big Bad of Season Two, so by design, Lucifer isn't the Big Bad.
    • The Dragon: (Hecate Poole) To Evelyn. ZCE.
  5. Characters.Sonic The Hedgehog IDW Independent Antagonists:
    • The Dragon: (Master Zik) Master Zik is the second in command of the Deadly Six, no doubt due to his seniority. Zik is the only person who can change Zavok's mind about something, and he provides a more strategic logic to Zavok's more direct approaches. The second-in-command of a group of villains rather than the Big Bad.
    • The Dragon: (Dr. Starline) He becomes Eggman's for Year 2's Metal Virus story arc. While Starline shares the spot with Metal Sonic, he works more closely with Eggman as his new apprentice. Come Year 3, however, Eggman ousts him from the spot once he goes against his wishes. "Apprentice" and "assistant" (as per Starline's character page) to Eggman, the Big Bad.
    • Contrasting Sequel Antagonist: Surge serves as one to Metal Sonic, her fellow [[TheDragon dragon]] and Evil Counterpart to Sonic. Metal Sonic is a cold and calculating Silent Antagonist (outside of his Neo form); Surge, on the other hand, is impulsive and extremely Hot-Blooded, intended to mirror Sonic in personality while Metal more closely emulates his appearance. Furthermore, Metal Sonic is completely artificial, while Surge is a normal person augmented with cybernetic implants to gain her abilities. Finally, they contrast in their dynamic with their respective creators. Metal is completely obedient to Eggman, who in turn dotes over him unlike any of his other minions; in contrast, Surge's belligerent attitude causes her to butt heads with Starline on multiple occasions, and ultimately Starline's mistreatment of her and Kit drives both of them to conspire against him once they learn the truth of their origins. Dragon to whom?
  6. Characters.Ultramarines:
    • The Dragon: (Verena Kain) To Barbaden. ZCE.
    • The Dragon: (Caradas Grendel) Ironically, in any other situation, he would be The Brute. ZCE.
    • The Dragon: (Onyx) Onyx serves as this to Honsou in Dead Sky, Black Sun, as one of his top-ranked henchmen and main enforcer. He's the one who Honsou sends to capture Ventris after he breaks into Khalan-Ghol, and plays a key role in taking down Warmsith Berossus when he has Honsou at his mercy. One of Honsou's top-ranked henchmen and main enforcer. Insufficient context regarding whether Honsou is the Big Bad or not.
  7. FireEmblemFates.Tropes A To G:
    • Big Bad: The Nohrian ruler, Garon, is an antagonistic force in both Birthright and Conquest, but in different capacities.
      • Then there's the third path, where he gets demoted to The Dragon of the real Big Bad, Anankos. Contextless pothole.
    • Cultural Posturing: One of the few things that make the generally benevolent Hoshido grey is their tendency to characterize all citizens of Nohr as wicked monsters, when the truth is that it is really just Garon and [[TheDragon his advisors/generals]], Iago and Hans. This has the result of making the Hoshido characters look a tad racist during the Conquest route, as they insist that the player character must have been brainwashed as they continue to plead for peace between Nohr and Hoshido. Refers to advisors or generals.

    Unsortable (4/148) 
  1. Characters.Far Cry 5: Easily the darkest of your nine companions for a number of reasons, and the only one who seems to actively enjoy all the killing she does. She'd actually make a pretty good villain or dragon if she had ended up joining the peggies. Just a reference to the concept
  2. IThoughtItMeant.O To R: A Red Right Hand isn't what you get if The Dragon is a communist, either. Just a joke on a JFF page
  3. PlayingWith.Non Sequitur Thud: Bob gets hit with a club and says, "Take the fourth line of chickens. En garde!"; Alice runs into a wall and says, "Ow!", and Charlie, after taking a beating from [[TheDragon Dracone]], collapses without saying a word. Just a character in the hypothetical
  4. PlayingWith.Party Scattering: Mentioned multiple times as one of the characters in the scenarios; not technically relevant to the trope itself

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 1st 2024 at 7:28:40 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#26: Dec 18th 2023 at 5:45:31 AM

Honestly I think just tightening the definition to be a general bad guy right hand man is fine. Nothing else to do.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#27: Dec 18th 2023 at 1:28:03 PM

[up][up]As I've said too many times to count, proposals to make something a supertrope need to say what such a proposal would entail, just like any other scope/definition change. What would this be a supertrope to, anyway?

Edit: [up]I think that might work. I think the "subordinate whom the villainous boss favours / trusts / relies on the most" definition aspect mentioned in the OP was referring to either that or possibly something a bit more specific due to that line in the OP going more into the main villain's relationship with the subordinate.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 18th 2023 at 3:30:46 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#28: Dec 19th 2023 at 1:03:43 AM

I'm going to remind people of this post in the Trope Talk thread where I find that the intent of Number Two is... kind of muddled. I'm certainly not sure being part of a military hierarchy is (or at least, was originally) supposed to be definitive of the trope.

(I could have sworn I'd left my thoughts on Big Bad somewhere as well, but Google isn't turning it up and posting it here would go well outside the scope of the thread.)

Edited by MorganWick on Dec 19th 2023 at 1:08:52 AM

Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#29: Dec 19th 2023 at 1:06:02 AM

That just means Number Two is not a strict condition of The Dragon and new description should take account of it.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#30: Dec 19th 2023 at 1:36:02 AM

[up]I'd be fine with that.

If Number Two has its own problems, it could get its own thread in the future, but removing Number Two from the equation for The Dragon would at least keep any problems with Number Two from getting in the way in this thread.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 19th 2023 at 3:37:26 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#31: Dec 20th 2023 at 11:23:06 AM

So, would the crowner options look like:

Or what?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#32: Dec 21st 2023 at 2:28:14 AM

[up]Sounds good to me.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#33: Dec 21st 2023 at 11:44:47 AM

I might hold off on hooking a crowner for now, since this is a big project, but I think what's suggested so far sounds fine.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#34: Dec 21st 2023 at 5:07:13 PM

I like Mir's idea personally.

The First man
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#35: Dec 21st 2023 at 5:08:32 PM

Mir's idea is sort of the same thing as the crowner options; ditching the specifics of Number Two and Big Bad would result in it being "The main villain's closest minion"

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#36: Dec 22nd 2023 at 12:15:28 AM

Hooked the proposed crowner that addresses Big Bad and Number Two separately.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
AbsoluteRainbow Absolute Rainbow & the tales between worlds from Hanoi, Vietnam Since: Jul, 2023
Absolute Rainbow & the tales between worlds
#37: Dec 22nd 2023 at 12:16:27 AM

[up] What about the requirements though?

Absolute Rainbow
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#38: Dec 22nd 2023 at 12:38:38 AM

[up]The requirements are the entire point of the crowner. What are you talking about?

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#39: Dec 22nd 2023 at 5:30:01 AM

So, the crowner seems to be a bit unstable (I noticed a shift in the option regarding Number Two), so I'll have the crowner run for at least five days instead of the usual three, and I'll try to remember to bump the ATT query at least once per day during that time.

Edit: Well, the fact that that's two days after Christmas means it's probably for the better to wait until after Christmas is over (which is also during the gap between Christmas and New Year's), between a potential lack of activity and the fact that this is such a big trope.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 22nd 2023 at 7:35:53 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#40: Dec 22nd 2023 at 5:47:12 AM

There may be some confusion on what Number Two is about, which we can't really help with in this thread.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
MyFinalEdits Officially intimidated from Parts Unknown (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Officially intimidated
#41: Dec 22nd 2023 at 6:48:11 AM

Posting this comment to make public that I voted in favor of removing the Number Two requirement. I didn't upvote or downvote the other option.

135 - 169 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#42: Dec 22nd 2023 at 8:04:30 AM

Perhaps the crowner could be amended to remind people what those tropes actually mean, since I can't think of any valid reason to keep the Number Two requirement if you know the actual definition.

Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 22nd 2023 at 11:04:54 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#43: Dec 22nd 2023 at 8:10:24 AM

If someone could draft such amendments, there shouldn't be a problem with adding them since the crowner is already running a bit longer.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#44: Dec 22nd 2023 at 8:15:28 AM

  • Big Bad: The thing, character or otherwise, which causes the plot and must be stopped for the plot to end.
  • Number Two: The second-in-command of a strict hierarchy, such as in a military.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#45: Dec 22nd 2023 at 9:33:24 AM

OK, the crowner options have had addendums added clarifying the proper definitions of Big Bad and Number Two, with tweaks to the non-addendum wording for the sake of making the text flow better.

The options are currently written this way:

  • Remove the requirement for The Dragon to be connected to a Big Bad instead of another type of major villain (Big Bad being the thing, character or otherwise, which causes the plot and must be stopped for the plot to end)
  • Remove the requirement for The Dragon to be an example of Number Two instead of being able to be another type of second-in-command (Number Two being the second-in-command of a strict hierarchy, such as in a military)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Dec 24th 2023 at 5:52:34 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#47: Dec 23rd 2023 at 10:43:59 AM

Well now that the options specify what's Being voted on. It seems we've swung to positive.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Berrenta MOD How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#48: Dec 26th 2023 at 5:54:04 PM

Calling in favor of both options:

  • Remove the requirement for The Dragon to be connected to a Big Bad instead of another type of major villain (Big Bad being the thing, character or otherwise, which causes the plot and must be stopped for the plot to end)
  • Remove the requirement for The Dragon to be an example of Number Two instead of being able to be another type of second-in-command (Number Two being the second-in-command of a strict hierarchy, such as in a military)

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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#49: Dec 26th 2023 at 8:02:12 PM

I made a to-do list and archived the wick check, and copied the description to Sandbox.The Dragon to use as a starting point. I think Sandbox.The Dragon was originally made for the previous TRS thread, but it was abandoned three years ago, so I figured replacing its contents with text for this thread wouldn't be a problem.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#50: Dec 27th 2023 at 9:02:12 AM

I don't think there will be that many changes needed. I'll take a crack later.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Trope Repair Shop: The Dragon
22nd Dec '23 12:14:37 AM

Crown Description:

There have been concerns that The Dragon's definition is unclear, particularly regarding the description's references to Big Bad and Number Two. Should the description be adjusted to remove the requirements regarding Big Bad and/or Number Two?

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