Discussion Pantheon / Disgraces

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Look, this place was very toxic for the rest of the Pantheon and it had to be locked because there were some people throwing characters here because they personally didn't like them when at worst they were Base Breakers. I don't know what is your issue (Or of the guy above you) but we had agreed to get rid of this page.

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Okay, to weight into this... the reason why Disgraced is being erased is because it became a huge Flame Bait. Like imagine if everyone with great strength with no real weakness was just labelled Mary Sue. Imagine if one reviewer said that "this show sucks", it automatically it is the worst thing ever. Imagine if a character is even slightly responsible for a non-ideal plot was deemed the worst character ever. That is the problem.

Another thing is the constant demonizing of these people. Most of them might not be ideal people by most standards, but most of the people involved decided to depict them as Complete Monsters. Like say Berii Shirayuki. I haven't read the manga so I cannot truly weight into this, but no matter how much of a Mary Sue she might be, I am pretty sure she did not literally force Ichigo to give the title of the main character to her. That is bad writing on our own part. You know, taking a badly written character and writing them worse.

So...what's the anti-PC verision of "Full Mc Intosh"? Because we're being given it in enormous detail by Sera here!

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Never said anything about conservatives or neckbeards. That's simply your assumption. Nor does dislike over Thunderf00t decide stance on social justice, PC or politics considering how both fundie conservatives and extremist liberals hates the guy. And as for Mc Intosh, I'll let you look that one up on Know Your Meme. All I said is that I Think you're hatred for the decision regarding the Disgraces comes of as insane and paranoid.

This is not about Moral Guardians. This is about self control that we will refrain ourselves from using other characters as personal punching bag. The inclusion of the Disgraces spiraled out of control and made us no better than what we described as those Disgraces. TPPR encapsulated everything that should have been said.

As much as there are several characters that I would have liked cast down in the Disgraces (I'm looking straight at you, GO! Robin...), I must agree that the Disgraces need to go. They might be missed, and they might not be. But nevertheless, it's another chapter to ignore, but never forget, in this site's long history.

that's a new entry on the "Why Fandom Cant Have Nice Things" page

This is probably for the best. Many of them weren't really at fault for the things that landed them there in the first place.

Oh, is this why tropes like Black Hole Sue are banned?

This is why it's locked, actually. Removing it would be discussion for here.

You can ask here for edits, of course...

That was a nice explanation, however... The Disgraces is closed. But you got potential in your explanation. Come visit us at this topic, we can have a good time talking to each other.

Ah, okay. Thanks!

Is he REALLY that hated? I've watched Scooby-Doo for as long as I can remember and Scrappy was really the one thing I so LOATHED about Scooby Doo due to the two 15-minute shorts, the lack of Fred, Daphne and Velma etc. I actually LIKED Flim-Flam cause, heck he WASN'T Scrappy and the 13 Ghosts of Scooby Doo was THE Scooby Doo show that got me into supernatural plots and such (to the point that I was up at 6:30 in the morning on Boomerang just to catch an episode.) Nowadays, I can't watch the 13 Ghosts due to everyone's utter dislike of Flim-Flam and seriously aren't there WORSE Ethnic scrappies than him?

I'll be honest, I never understood the hatred for Scrappy myself. Maybe it's a generational thing, but he didn't seem all that bad of a character.

I was around 7-10 when I was watching it and most of the time my hatred wasn't for Scrappy but always the humongous marathons of the Scooby and Scrappy-doo show and me waiting for the episodes when Fred, Daphne and Velma could show up (which was rare, let me tell you). Flim Flam was actually a unique character to the Scooby Gang cause he wasn't as heroic; he was a cunning trickster who most likely had to swindle his way out in order to live (considering that the village he was in at the start of 13 Ghosts had people transformed into werewolves) and he could weasel his way out of most situations. The thing I'm wondering is whether Flim Flam is really THAT hated of an Ethnic Scrappy than say Paco from Jackie Chan Adventures.

Also, who should be the god of Damsel Scrappy (please not Mokuba as I think there are better options than him)

We had Kim Bauer, but she Took a Level in Badass, paid her dues in Purgatory and is back in the mortal realm.

Okay. But still, aren't their other gods better as Ethnic Scrappies. The reason is that most of Scrappy's hatedom is due to him being on much much longer than the established Scooby Doo characters at a time, while Flim Flam only was in one scooby doo show that got canceled after 13 episodes. It seems very disproportionate if you asked me.

So most likely we should wait till we have better candidates for those types of scrappies then.

I'm considering sending Flim-Flam to The Fallen instead.

I sent him to the disgraces because the show may have been cancelled due to him.

For what? Adaptation Decay, maybe

Well, Adaption Decay is a good place to start, But We might need a few more Tropes, So what else can we put on the table?

He doesn't fit much else beside that. And I think there are others who could fit the Cliché Storm better

Like who?

You know, I would've agreed up until Seahorse Seashell Party, the episode where Brian convinces Meg to stay with her abusive family and take what they throw at her so they don't turn their attention on each other. It's difficult to see Brian leave after something like that. But I guess if we get enough votes, I can Ret-Gone him from the Disgraces as part of Silver's task.

He doesn't convince her. She convinces herself, from what I've heard, it was her decision. Brian even told her she was a brave person for doing it.

Fine then, I vote for his removal.

Is two votes all thats needed?

EDIT: Also, in exchange for your vote, I voted on one of your earlier comments in here... about Bella Swan.

Not sure. I mostly stuck to making it part of the Book of Trope to see if anyone else agrees with the idea. I haven't bothered to touch Brian just yet.

I'll take two as being enough then. Brian is being erased from the Disgaraces as a result of Silver's redemption.

Brian should come back punishment for Brian's A Bad Father and Herpes the Love Sore.

Rose is already the "goddess" of Trying to Fix Canon. He could still be the "god" of Creator Breakdown, though.

I'm thinking the Grand Ruler Celesto from My Little Unicorn. He's an alicorn with three horns, and controls the sun, moon, and weather of Unicornicopia. Oh, and he can use the Uniforce. He's basically an expy of Celestia except much more powerful.

Sorry, we already got Alice Albernathy.

I know. I was the one who put her there.

Patrick, like SpongeBob, fits better for The Fallen.

Okay, fair enough. Is anyone working on that?

Think of it like someone's who's been dishonorably discharged from the military. They were stripped of their former rank.

Also, according to D'Leh, his speech inspired the Court of the Gods to officially declare the Disgraced Ones as no longer considered Gods.

Wesley Crusher is Creator's Pet. Lightning is in the Fallen.

Also, you don't need to discuss about Lightning, she's one of the Guards in The Fallen.

....Do it. The bastard is responsible for making Makoto who he is in the novels.

Hmmm... But to be perfectly honest, I'm not quite sure I will be able to create a good entry due to my lack of editing experience... Any advice?

@ Xorn15 Here's my take, since he's responsible for making Makoto Itou into what he is (plus the fact that Makoto, of all people, hates him), once this person gets put into the Disgraces, shall we put Makoto and Sekai out of the Disgraces into Purgatory?

Tomaru Sawagoe, God of Painfully Stupid Plots and Horrifying Erotica, Darkest Representation of Really Gets Around, Parental Incest and Paedophillia

• N/A
  • Former rank: Quasideity
• Symbol: His glasses.
• Alignment: Neutral Evil
• Portfolio: Raping his own children and grandchildren beyond, Parental Incest, Squick, Being truly bastards, Depravity, Having sex with and being related to virtually everyone, Horrifying Erotica, Evil Fathers/Grandfathers/Great Grandfathers, Sociopathy, Assholes, Hedonists, Getting away with everything he's done.
• Domains: Incest, Rape, Depravity, "Love", Paedophillia.
• Ally: Shinji Matou
• Opposed by: The Chick Magnet Quartet (in particular, Issei Hyodo), Johnny Sfondi and Kagura Mutsuki, Kotonoha Katsura.
• Position: Pimp.
• Was demoted to the Disgraces after the Court of the Gods discovered that he's responsible for making his son into what he is, as well as other horrific acts, including but not limited to: not treating any members of his harem like human beings; impregnating his cousins, his sister, his daughters, his granddaughters; drugging (and almost certainly raping) his daughters so he could impregnate them when they were as young as FIVE; outright telling Makoto that he can have as many lovers as he wants, but to never forget that one day daddy will come back and make them his; and being a horrible parent.
• The Chick Magnet Quartet (in particular, Issei Hyodo), Johnny Sfondi and Kagura Mutsuki are outright DISGUSTED at his acts, so much that they vomited just thinking about him.
• In addition
• Chance of Redemption: Zilch. Even his own son, Makoto Itou, of all people, hates him, which is truly saying a lot.

Bring this over to the Main Pantheon Discussion Page, where everyone usually is.

alright

Neutral Evil fits him best. I've played all the 0verlfow games(except Miss Each other, Cross Days and Shiny Days).

Draigo is here as a symbolic representation of everything wrong with books written by Matt Ward. Terrible fluff, extreme bias in rules towards armies he likes (he designed the 6th edition rules to buff his armies and nerf the ones that were strong against them) and tendencies to screw over armies he doesn't like (Sisters). Ward's the THAT GUY of game design.

I know, but he's still not doing anything for the disgraces while stuck in the warp. Perhaps he could have a substitute for times when he's in the warp and thus unable to help the Disgraces?

I'm a bit afraid about this one... Religion is a very touchy subject. However this is only my opinion, but I believe folks like those are best forgotten. But If your wondering if I'm offended or anything, I'm not. If ever this gets approved, you should highlight Bob Williams from Chick Tracts, just put a link on it.

While religion can be touchy, there's an easy way to get around it with this guy: make it absolutely clear that it's HIS fucked-up version of Christianity. I would add things to his portfolio such as Artistic License – Religion, Sadly Mythtaken, and Word of Dante.

The Prayer Warriors would definitely be his allies. Xanthe Justice would probably hate him, due to his version of Christianity's view on women.

I tried to make it clear I don't think this character deserves to be a Disgrace because he's Christian. It's because his method of conversion is too simple and makes no sense and he's ridiculously overpowered for someone who's supposed to be a "normal" person.

Well, I'm Christian, and, speaking for myself, I don't mind. Just because I believe that some of what he's saying is true (and even I don't believe in all of it- a lot of what he says is artistic license- religion) doesn't mean he isn't a preachy, Sueish character.

Evidence to condemn him: Marty Stu, Designated Hero, Creator's Pet... yeah, his title is Designated Protagonist Syndrome.

I agree, he should be put into the Disgraces. Also, funnily enough, the person who made Johnny Test also made Ned's Declassified, so there should be something about Ned Bigby staying away from him even though he and Johnny have connections.

All right. Should we also mention that Johnny was voiced by James Arnold Taylor, who also voiced Tidus in Final Fantasy X? That should throw Yuna in the Magic Pantheon off.

Oh, that would definitely work! I can assume she was trying to whistle to get Tidus and well...next thing Johnny knows, Yuna's a Gunslinger and has Catnip on her.

Johnny Test, God of Designated Protagonist Syndrome (Johnny X)

• Rank: Quasideity
• Symbol: A silhouette of his bust over a yellow circle
• Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
• Portfolio: Marty Sue, Creator's Pet, Stock Superpowers, Always the Hero Even Though He Rarely Does Anything Helpful, Unsympathetic Comedy Protagonist
• Domains: Laziness, (Annoying) Kid Heroes
• Followers: Dukey, his sisters Susan and Mary Test, Sissy
• Allies: Ned Bigby (or so he thinks)
• Opposed by: Bling-Bling Boy, Ned Bigby
• Since his fall into the Disgraces, he has been banned from his sisters' lab in order to prevent him from gaining access to his "superhero" form, Johnny X, which allowed him to use generic superpowers and really flammable gas.
• Ned Bigby and Big Time Rush have stayed VERY FAR AWAY from him, even though they were all conceived by Scott Fellows.
• Yuna tried whistling for Tidus one day, only for Johnny to appear instead. Next thing Johnny knew, Yuna was a Gunslinger with Cat Nip equipped.
• Chance of Redemption: Maybe if the show stopped airing but given that it's made cheaply with Flash, veeeeeeery unlikely.

Feel free to add anything else to this

Oh, also add the note that the Big Time Rush boys also stays far away from him.

Okay! Anything else?

We can add things up as we go along. For right now, this is ready for the disgraces.

Changed his title to Protagonist-Centered Morality, since Designated Protagonist Syndrome is now redefined and therefore more fitting for The Fallen.

That'd be awesome, since I am a fan of Nena Trinity, but unfortunately, the problem with Nena is that... you bring her up, and people will still waffle about her either being a victim of circumsance or an absolutely evil bitch (some guy put her in the same league as Ali al-Saachez and Gauron the other night).

So... this means that Nena's stuck in the Disgraces, though I, too, would lobby for her to be in Purgatory. She may be bad, but she deserves better.

She provided backup for Setsuna F. Seiei with her shuttle while facing an Innovade. That's one of her few good actions, for a bad girl like her.

Oh, I agree, but people tend to argue that's "not good enough".

That said, I will fight with you and get her out of the Disgraces. I'll make damn sure of it.

Why?

If you've seen Obscurus Lupa's Charmed reviews, you'd have an idea. Probably would do a better job than me in explaining.

Pretty much, yeah. If they were put up here, what would they be catagorized under? Bad feminism attempts? Unlikable protagonists?

What are the tropes for that?

Okay, I think I've scrounged up a few tropes that might work:

Jerk Sues, Took a Level in Jerkass, Idiot Plots, Designated Heroes, Entitled Bastards, Straw Feminists, Not Understanding How Biology Works, Hypocrisy

Also Inconsistencies out the wazoo.

As for Alignment, I guess they think they're somewhere in the good-based alignment, when it's likely they're more Chaotic Evil.

Can anyone who's more familiar with the show help me out here?

Their title of the Charmed Ones are Straw Feminists.

Since I don't know other candidates, this Sekai should be in.

I can’t think of any others, so here’s her entry. I assume she’ll go into the Gladiators section.

Sekai, Goddess of Entitled Bastards and Bitches

• Symbol: Her SUE Element, crossed with her Stormy Blossom Chrysoberyl’s katana and her SLAVE Gem in the center.
• Alignment: Neutral Evil
• Portfolio: Power Copying, Teleporters And Teleportation, reflecting attacks back at their sources, Dual Wielding, being a Flying Brick.
• Domains: Stealing other people’s abilities, arrogance among those with superpowers, throwing away the lives of one’s followers, selfishness.
• Followers: Vashblade, the Schwarz members who assisted her in her assault on Fuuka Academy.
• Allies: None among the Disgraces. She assumes The Usurper is still her ally, but remains unaware of his plan to steal her body.
• Opposed by: The entire cast of Mai Hime and Mai Otome, anyone who has a seemingly useful superpower and won’t submit to her.
• After being killed in a failed attempt to defeat the Himes and their Otome allies, Sekai initially relished the prospect of being sent down to the Disgraces, hoping to steal the powers of several of the overpowered inhabitants that were there, and recruit the rest as her minions. Her excitement quickly turned to disappointment, however, as her SUE abilities were sealed, and with them, her ability to use her stolen Otome powers or acquire any others. Even her SLAVE Gem was sealed, forcing her to survive by her wits alone.
• Sekai is under watch from the rest of the Disgraces, after claims that she murdered her fellow SUEs to steal their powers, although she contends that it was in an alternate continuity, and half of the murders were caused by her fellow SUE, Shizune Otonashi. This did not help her case very much, nor did her brazenly demanding that everyone else follow her, while being treated as little more than cannon fodder.
• Sekai is not to be confused with her fellow Disgrace Sekai Saionji, and resents any implication that Saionji’s name inspired hers.

What would he be god of?

God who's Too Dumb to Live.

Sounds good to me, although maybe him being the god of Wide-Eyed Idiocy might sound like a better name. Let's get an entry for him cooking.

Kio Asuno, God of Wide Eyed Idiocy and Useless Protagonists

• Demigod
• Symbol: His Gundam AGE-3.
• Alignment: Claims that he's Neutral Good, but turns out to be Stupid Good
• Portfolio: The Idealist who's Truly Stupid, Useless Protagonists, Carrying the Idiot Ball, Lack of Piloting Skills, Widely Hated Characters, Invoking Seasonal Rot in the Entire Gundam Franchise.
• Domains: Good (Failed), Idealism (Betrayed), Technology, Mechas.
• Former Superior: Yoshiyuki Tomino.
• Former Allies:
  • Non-Ascended: Flit (his grandfather) and Asemu (his father).
  • Ascended: Every Good aligned Gundam Deity within the Pantheon.
• Enemies: Every Evil aligned Gundam Deity within the Pantheon.
• Position: To be determined.
• Failed to follow the footsteps of his more famous ancestors. Kio got kicked to the Disgraces when he made a bad move which ended his reputation in the Pantheon forever, causing massive casualties.
• Things become even worse when his GUAG membership got revoked after this disastrous event. To be fair, it's not his fault.
• Since his Disgrace, his series is not exported outside Japan. Also, the partnership between the good Gundam Pilots and the Pretty Cures got damaged because of it.
• Chance of Redemption: Nil. He would become the second coming of Kira Yamato, but his actions pretty much removed his chances of belonging the Pantheon proper.

Virgil sounds like an unique thing. One should separate him in a special section than the Disgraces though. Maybe always put him on top of the list?

I second the Virgil thing. With the history of the Disgraces showing Mara Jade—the only sue able to freely go to the Pantheon without guards—gone and their most prolific member in Lt. Sue also in Narrative, it would make sense that someone has to keep an eye on this sorry sack.

I'm glad Virgil has gone down well thus far. Maybe putting him on top would be a good idea, though I'm probably wouldn't go down well with Bella and Edward.

Well they can't do anything about it though. They're still disgraces—they can't get out of their gated community without a guide. They'll just have to suck it up.

...Seconded!

Oh yeah, he needs to go. And with Tobi in the Fallen, his chances of getting out are slim to none.

I have got to admit. Even with my unbridling hatred to Terumi and how I think he shoulda taken that place... Tehranotaur seriously makes a lot of good points, and I wasn't even following Naruto.

Let the checking begin then.

Ok, but before to write the portfolio, what's the final fate of Gary Smith, the soon-to-be-former holder of the title?

High Priest. His crimes are small potatoes considering what Madara has done.

Alright: Now we need an entry for Madara Uchiha. I'll put in my entry.

Madara Uchiha, God of Absurdly Omnipotent Villains and Author Tract

• Lesser God (former Overdeity, forcibly sealed by The Protectors Of The Plot Continuum after outrage from the Gods in the Main House)
• Symbol: A moon with a 9-tomoe Sharingan reflected on it.
• Alignment: Neutral Evil
• Portfolio: Villain Sues, Reliance On The Idiot Ball To Succeed At Anything, Assholes, Overpowered Sues, Author Tract, Creator's Pet, Being unable to be killed by Word of God, Wall Bangers, Beyond the Impossible, Diabolus ex Machina, Plot Holes, Series Continuity Errors.
• Domains: Evil, Trickery.
• Followers: Hao, Costa, Mirror Sue.
• High Priest: Gary Smith.
• Allies: The Usurper.
• Former Ally: Obito Uchiha.
• Enemies: All deities from the Naruto series.
• Position: Spy.
• Was formerly an apparent friend of Obito Uchiha when the latter used to be in the Pantheon. After Obito got demoted to The Fallen, Madara absorbed the Ten-Tails and became its new jinhuuriki and attempted to get his other Rinnegan to enact the Eye of the Moon plan and take control of the whole Pantheon. However, his plans were foiled by a collective team of Hakumen, Excalibur and Yuji Sakai. Hakumen distracted Madara by summoning Excalibur and weakened him with his Ookami sword, and Yuji aided Hakumen with his Grammatica Protection spell and used the Grammatica Restraining spell to remove the Ten-Tails from him and neutralize him after it got removed, buying Sakura Haruno time to revive Naruto by implanting Kurama's yang half. It was the wrath of a combination the aforementioned three and a revived Naruto and Kurama's Yang half who curbstomped him, cementing Naruto's status as the God of Outraged Optimism.
• After this event, The Protectors of the Plot Continuum caught and brought him before the Court of the Gods. They presented to the Court evidence to prove Madara's condemnation to the Disgraces, which includes a combination of Wall Bangers, an excessive amount of Mary Sue traits, and fulfilling an Author Tract. After the trial at the court, Madara got dragged to the Disgraces in an extremely humiliating manner, with Quan Chi and Shang Tsung doing most of the Humiliation Conga on him and the latter absorbing most of his non-jinchuuriki powers during the banishment to prevent him from escaping from the Disgraces.
• Chance of Redemption: Nil. Banished to this realm by way of Humiliation Conga.

This works. Let's get going.

Don't forget Plot Hole and Series Continuity Error.

I added them in now.

It's time for him to be added.

Well, in Chapter 665, Obito, who currenly is in The Fallen, is starting to stand up against Madara. If Obito succeeds in thwarting Madara, then maybe the former could get a chance to go to Purgatory. We'll have to wait for chapter 666 to see what happens next.

So 666 is out...what do we do now?

Add more details for Tobi's twarting to him (also serves as Obito's pass for the Purgatory), and bingo! Madara is kicked to the Disgraces.

Okay so who's gonna send this guy to the Disgraces?

Once chapter 667 comes out and if it shows Obito finally thwarting Madara, then I'll add him to the disgraces

667 came out and nope. It showed Kabuto and Might Guy, no Obito.

@Camilla: You mean chapter 668.

Let's do this. He's had this coming for a LONG time. Can't use Author Tract since that' taken by Xanthe Justice. Unless she gets Filibuster Freefall

Villain Sue it is.

He's in!

I think Author Tract would fit Madara better and Filibuster Freefal for Xanthe.

Wait, wait, wait. PPC doesn't kill with canon Sues. Not their MC. And they don't 'seal' people, either.

Shouldn't Might Guy be mentioned as one of the guys who helped put Madara down? I mean he did dish out severe damage with his Evening Elephant and Night Moth and helped buy time to revive Naruto.

Agreed.

So this means that the Knights of Suetopia are gonna have to be edited soon, right?

Gary will still have his position as Royal Advisor after Madara's ascension. It's just that his title will change. So no, the Knights of Suetopia won't have to be edited.

I'd rather we just cut Gary Smith since we now have two Royal Advisors, him and Quil.

Gary's new position in this ignoble house is: Student.

Serious-Shilling the Wesley-on-the-part-of-GW.

Really? Been reading the writings of Graham Mc Neill, they seem pretty reasonable. Did the new edition sue-ify them or something?

No, it's just that the majority of players view them as being a bit Sueish, given that they are supposed to be the strictest followers of the Codex Astartes, but the fact that they diverge quite a bit from it with the Honor Guard and the Tyrannic Veterans. Not to mention how many victories/heroic sacrifices they've made, and the fact that they have founded the most succesor chapters.

The Black Library books are usually non-canon unfortionately, with a few exceptions in the special characters that are made from the books.

Not even on the part of GW. That would be Matt Ward's fault.

Nevermind this comment; mistaken it for new topic :P

Likely to be Creator's Pet.

EDIT: Error in request. See latest entry.

Hm. What are her qualifications?

Is there a normal goddess of Tiny Tyrannical Girl?

Nope. There's annoying younger siblings, bratty kids, creepy twins...nothing for tiny tyrannical girl. And if Sarah is here, Ed should sympathize with her (she is his sister). She also did a Heel–Face Turn in the big picture show after learning of Eddy's abuse—aside from that, she usually gets away with what she does with no reprecussions.

Yeah, On one hand, she's had a long history of being an abusive and entitled brat. But on the other hand one could argue that with her aforementioned Heel–Face Turn, she DID realize how much of a jerk she was and may have promptly softened up because of it, and while she does usually get away with most of her abusive moments, she did occasionally get smacked with the karma stick.

So, do you think she actually belongs in the Fallen? or should I just get started in making her Portfolio in the Disgraces?

Send her to The Fallen.

Yeah.

Let's see what everyone else thinks first.

If he actively contributes to a bad ending, wouldn't that mean that he's The Millstone, rather than The Load?

Telltale stated that he was written and characterized as The Load, not to mention that he does get a few scenes where he becomes awesome (telling off some Kenny for his bullshit in episode 4 of the group and doing a heroic last stand in episode 5, I believe). In Ben's defense, he's a nervous panicky kid in an apocalypse and has no idea what's going on whereas Lance Vance is just plain stupid and to be fair, when you have bandits chasing your tail in a zombie apocalypse, what's the first thing you do?

As stated on the page for The Load, they are not ALWAYS the cause of the hero's short-comings (and curiously enough, a quote in regards to Ben is on the page) they are just there, no questions about it. Thus, if I have proved my point, I can make a portfolio for our "Liability" and send him to the Disgraces to wallow/send him to the Fallen out of sympathy.

I'm not sure that The Load trope is bad enough to qualify for the Disgraces. The Millstone certainly is, but The Load is more like 1/2 of The Millstone. The moments of awesome you mentioned could factor into his redemption chances, no matter what faction is chosen.

Then he's mostly going to the Fallen.

I concur with Camilla, Ben should go to The Fallen instead.

All right. Portfolio's up in the Fallen. If anyone can help with it, that will be helpful.

Okay, we need some evidence like ratings and criticisms regarding the character.

First of all: He single handlely cancelled the show within 5 episodes.

How many seasons was Brady Bunch in at that time?

Five seasons, he appeared in the fifth season episode "Welcome Aboard" in an attempt to gain audience, but 5 episodes later, the show is over due to the very bad reception of the character.

All right, let's get a portfolio up and running.

Um, Dragon-Kid? The portfolio?

Oliver Tyler, Poster Boy for Unnecesary Younger Additions (Cousin Oliver)

• Quasideity
• Symbol: TBC
• Alignment: True Neutral
• Portfolio: Unnecesary Younger Additions (Namer of the Trope), Unlikable Characters, Failing to Cater the Younger Audience.
• Domain: Family.
• Allies: Scrappy-Doo, Johnny Test, Renesmee Cullen.
• At odds with: Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon.
• Opposed by: Bart Simpson, Calvin, and the entire Brady Bunch fanbase.
• Position: Student.
• The Court of the Gods revised that a certain Oliver commited a severe crime of all time: Cancelling The Brady Bunch within five episodes. In fact, Phoenix Wright appointed him as the culpruit, and as a result, he got kicked to the Disgraces.
• In his first day in the Disgraces, he joins to the Disgraced Academy, run by Makoto Itou and Sekai Saionji. He associates easily with Johnny Test, but doesn't like the company of both Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon.
• Chance of Redemption: Zero.

This is a good start. We could also add more stuff in regards to how he relates to other child gods here (Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon and Renesmee). You can also add how the other child gods in the Pantheon like Calvin, Bart and especially DW hate his guts (with the idea that despite DW being annoying she knows her boundaries and knows what not to do in the Pantheon). Other than that, put a bit more effort into the portfolio and it's ready to go.

He's in.

Because her status as a sue depends on who's writing her. The basis of her place here is because while she she might have been good in the Zahn books, another book my have made her a complete Sue.

However, due to her higher chances of redemption, i'm going to send her to the mortal realm.

I'd say let her stay in Purgatory for a bit, have her complete a task and then have her becoming goddess of Expanded Universes.

It depends. I mean Cirno and Homestar are ditzes but they're not that hated by the fanbase, and we have the Dumb Is Good and Good Is Dumb tropes and depending on how they're written, they won't be sent to the disgraces.

You'll need to give examples before we can talk about that.

Clarification: We should represent the Stupid Alignments by characters hated by the fanbase for being stupid.

Thanks for pointing out the plothole.

Okay, THAT works. What do you have in mind?

If nothing else, one stupid god I hate more than anything is Trommel from Final Fantasy X seeing as he's the reason the main characters nearly got blamed for trouble due to destroying the only thing that said, "Hey, Seymour Guado is a jerk!" He never gets retribution until X-2 where the Guado race got genocidal decimated due to his mistakes and he had to be forgiven by Yuna in order to pass on.

What's Trommel's variation of stupidity? We have a god of chaotic stupidity, but the other alignments are open.

Miko represents Lawful Stupid in Justice.

And honestly, I think Djibril represented Chaotic Stupid when it was originally merged with Stupid Evil. Personally I think that he's better represented as Stupid Evil, since IIRC, he did tactically stupid things like betray allies for no reason except to fuck over people he didn't like, and now mostly retains his position due to his rivalry with Miko Miyazaki, even though Lawful Stupid better opposes Stupid Evil due to Stupid Evil's tendency to break the laws just to prove how evil it is, while Chaotic Stupid is so scatterbrained it wouldn't know a law if it hit it in the face, thus would be less likely to break the law if only because it's spending at least some of its time running around in a field screaming incoherently, which, while annoying, isn't illegal.

A Disgraced God of Lawful Stupid could be 'Worst Representation Of', then, maybe. And do you think we should make Djibril god of Stupid Evil, then?

Johnny Turbo is officially the Worst Representation of Lawful Stupidness, and Boxbot the Worst Representation of Stupid Goodness. Djibril himself is now the Worst Representation of both Chaotic Stupidness and Stupid Evilness.

It's not just being unimportant plotwise, A Pinball Protagonist can still be a good character. Tony's not a "supposed" hero, but also a complete whiner and can't do anything without help from Vadinho. That's why he's God of Designated Heroes rather than Pinball Protagonists.

Example of a good Pinball Protagonist?

Brad and Janet from Rocky Horror Picture Show.

Good idea, Camilla.

She was actually pretty endearing and popular for a character, but Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon aren't. Pretty much the thing that made her go down here was "Flight to the Finish", where they mocked Scootaloo for her inability to fly and it's said that she's pretty much handicapped...they picked on a defenseless crippled kid, barely get punished for their bullying, hated by the majority of the fanbase (Silver Spoon actually has a better chance of redemption but she's a Satellite Character)

And if you have not seen "One Bad Seed", damn that was a brutal bullying episode.

Plus, Princess Morbucks is more of a Love to Hate character, and she will join to the Pantheon as the official Goddess of Spoiled Brats in the House of Commerce.

I agree. Morbucks definitely would be goddess of Spoiled Brats because she actually USES the money given to her to fight back. In fact, she actually convinces Mojo Jojo and Him (the former the Powerpuff Girls' arch nemesis, the latter being Satan) that she has a power greater than theirs: cold, hard cash. They agreed with her.

In comparison, Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon just whine and complain—they have money, but they don't actively use it. They gloat to the CMC and antagonize them but for what? Just to make themselves feel better. In Flight to the Finish, the term "Blank Flank" barely phases them—it's only when DT pretty much puts down Scootaloo that got her so HATED, not to mention that One Bad Seed incident with Babs (and what didn't help that case was Applejack going, "Hey, I think it'd be nice not to warn my little sister of her cousin's bullying problems!" What an idiot...)

In conclusion, Morbucks would despise Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon because at least she DOES something with her money and can actually fight. Tiara and Spoon? They have nothing going for them.

That's actually a good point. What do you think his position in the Disgraces is then?

Civilian, unless someone knows what he does for a living in the show (not a one-episode job. It has to be something that he consistently does).

Peter is a pretty good fighter. Look at the Giant Chicken battles.

Giant chicken battles?

With Ernie the Giant Chicken.

I'll add in the job 'royal thug' to compensate for that.

I wouldn't have minded if he kept his old position.

Well, the idea I rolled with when giving him a job was that he would jump to whatever job he had at each season based on how many people I believe either went to Purgatory or Unsorted. Knight was his title based on his one-episode run at a medieval fair, so his next job will either be Gondola rower or fisherman based on his run as fisherman and then finally he'll become the Royal Brewer.

Interesting idea.

The characters from Left Behind?

Which characters do you think would be best suited for this?

Until further notice, Rayford Steele is the Patron Saint of the Eight Deadly Words.

DT is already high priestess of the God of Hate Sinks.

She is? I thought Blueblood and Jeff Fecalman were the high priests.

Well on Diamond Tiara's character sheet, it says Hate Sink and she's pretty much been doing her job since the majority hate her guts. Silver Spoon is pretty likable by most fans because it's shown that she isn't a big of a bully as tiara and is more than anything just following her. This, unfortunately, makes her more of a Satellite Character though.

If he's convincing, he probably doesn't belong here. Thinking of My Little Unicorn, however, we could probably find room for Lightning Dawn. Maybe as the God of Accidentally Proving the Opposite of What You Intend To, Hate Fics, and One-Dimensional Characters.

Aw, what the heck. I'll add him in.

You shouldn't be too hasty, it's just one episode, she can still make things right, unlike Ougi who screwed it up with a 'happy end'.

Heck if anything, if she ALSO screwed it up, just put her as Ougi's follower, and that's it.

Goddess of Children That Should Not Be

I'd say Eliza Reagan is going to LIKE them.

thanks

I think this will work well. There were also debates that Oryou Sonozaki got sent here (as her cold attitude caused LOTS of strife for the Higurashi cast), but when I look at Misa yes she got a lot of strife but she only appeared in one arc in Fourze and when she came back in the movie she willingly helped with the whole 'Give Gentaro Cosmic Energy' act. Yes she is a Swiss Messenger for causing one guy to transform into a Zodiarts but compared to these three, they are small potatoes and most likely SHE would be their pawn also.

So yeah, go for it. These three are going down.

thanks. Time to add them in

Put it for now. If Season 7 doesn't contain awful parodies, send it to the Purgatory.

So can I?

Go ahead.

thanks

He's in.

The real reason why I put Lance Vance is because of his Millstoning is not played for laughs, it's a serious business for the cast of GTA: Vice City... also he's truly dumb to live.

Go ahead... and please separate Pinkamena from Pinkie Pie via Enemy Without.

OK. And, do you think that she should be made a knight (otherwise, she'll be a baker/assassin)? She has great talent with torture weapons, and the knights are the more combat-oriented of the Disgraces. I think that she could maybe take Peter Griffin's post, as he is not a combat-oriented character.

Can I just state that I'm not really happy with adding him or Rose back in? Their respective Trope Pages are GONE! Dead! With very little chance of returning. And as I said before, bringing both back after their in-canon removal does damage other established points.

1. Rose's removal was what allowed Blaise to leave for Purgatory, since he no longer needed to moderate between her and Ebony and allowed Ebony to take the throne as Archmage. Anon Fangeek Girl completely disregarded that and added her back in with no references to made to that.

2. Gurk has pretty much taken Ronan's spot. I'm not entirely happy with Gurk's presence either, but I've learned to tolerate it since his presence doesn't override anyone else's. The same cannot be said for Ronan.

So no, I'd rather not see Ronan return. In fact, I'd rather Rose be removed and Edfred replaced with the PPC.

No one complained with Rose Potter's reintroduction and Edfred's introduction. Just because their respective trope pages are gone doesn't mean they have to be as well. For Blaise Zabini, his title (Possession Sue) was taken over by The Usurper. For Gurk, his title is God of Squick and Horrifically Traumatizing Fanfics, as opposed to Lemon Stus (Ronan's would-be title). Gurk isn't a Lemon Stu, and I can't think of any other appropriate holder for the title (Makoto Itou from School Days could be a possibility, although he's a God alongside with Sekai for God and Goddess Painfully Stupid Love Plots, and adding God of Lemon Stus for Makoto could possibly separate the two).

"Just because their respective trope pages are gone doesn't mean they have to be as well."

That was the precedent set for removal back with Rance and Kengo Inui.

Plus, that doesn't address my point that Rose's reintroduction undermines Ebony's ascension to Archmage. It also feels like Anon Fangeek Girl doesn't really care much for what others had established before, as none of what she wrote about Rose matches what she originally was before her removal.

• 1. Her titles: Rose was originally Goddess of Canon Defilement, New Powers as the Plot Demands (Now belonging to the kind of forced Leif), and Unnecessary Nudity none of which were kept in the transition.
• 2. Her power level. Pre-banishment she was an Overdeity within her own Temple and had to be contained in that temple to allow her powers to be siphoned. Now she's just a Demigoddess with no reference to stripping her power from her. In fact, she's now being use to depower OTHER dieties
• 3. Enemies: Baffling is that she chose Ron and Hermione despite the fact that TGWL is the probably the least Harmonian thing I can remember. Meanwhile, pre-banishment her enemies including ALL HP characters, Rowling and the PPC.
• 4. The Flavor Text: The older flavor text used a lot more details from the fic, bringing up her understandings of "love" and just how dangerous the Druids were. Along with that, her nicknames were actually there.
• 5. Ebony: Again, her and Ebony were both Mages and when she got banished, Ebony took full power. Not only does having her come back undermine Ebony's position, it also undermines the fact that Rose was hinted at betraying Ebony at some point to gain power.

As for Edfred, he feels like a less than ideal choice for God of Mary Sue Hunters. Ronan's gone so he doesn't have much point in that role and really, he was a one-chapter Deus Ex Machina while the PPC are a full-blown organization of Agents with clearly defined rules and regulations for capture and killing, and were the ones who codified it.

Oh, sorry about that. The only thing I knew about her was that she was banished from the Disgraces, and I didn't really think of her as powerful enough to be an Overdeity. I had no idea what she was before, and quite honestly, I think Hermione would hate her for what she did to Ron. You're free to edit her enemies if you want, and yes, I do think (at least now that you've mentioned it) that all of the HP characters would be her enemies.

And keep in mind, she was, yes, banished. While she was gone, I think that Enoby would have consolidated power, making it pretty much impossible for her to ascend to her previous power. And do note, I had absolutely no idea what got her banished, just that she was. I felt that she'd be perfect for being a Disgrace, and my own idea is that Bella and Edward overrode Tata, because Rose has been very useful to them. That's my explanation, and if it's unsatisfactory, feel free to point that out.

You're also free to edit the flavor text, and I'll try to weld this new information into her entry. I hope that'll make Rose more acceptable as a Disgrace.

The reasons for her banishing have been covered elsewhere, but to reiterate, the reason we cut her was because it was around that time that other fics and works wer being cut since their content was a hot button for advertisers. Once her page was given the axe, the next step was full banishment from TV Tropes as had been done with Kengo Inui, Rance and Ronan Beelzub.

And I understand wanting to keep her in the Disgraces, I had done a lot of work in helping to perfect the original entry, even finding stuff like her druidess name and her nickname of Prongs Jr. But the wiki made its choice and killed the relating page, so it was time for her to go.

As for Rose's power level... well, given that she is a druid, something the fic established CAN destroy entire cities, and had the power to kill Dementors, we pretty much went from there.

Oh, and, by the way, the author was in fact Harmonian, but due to Harry being made a girl, H/Hr wasn't a viable ship, because apparently he wanted Harry to remain heterosexual even though he's a girl.

Why should the original Mary Sue have any chance of redemption? She is still a badly written character.

She was originally INTENDED as a parody of self insert characters. The author used her as a form of satire. As such, the prognosis is pretty accurate.

Yep, now she needs a position.

Just because she is a parody it doesn't make her a good one as she still would have been extreme and breaking the Willing Suspension of Disbelief beuing a Sue.

Yeah, but putting her under the Mary Sue Litmus Test, she barely even reaches 20. Meanwhile, the point of no return is 50+. Ebony has 195 and Ronan has a 314. Mary Sue barely counts as a Sue anymore.

Fair enough.

Wait seriously? 314?

Ok, what about Rose Potter?

Lieutenant Mary Sue is now in the Purgatory.

And if Megafighter3 is right and she only has 20 points, then shouldn't we bump her into Ambiguity or Theater?

She's now in Theater.

Added a description of her redemption and their attempts to bring her back without success.

Okay, I reflexed about who's going to replace Gilligan and here's my analysis:

Excel doesn't count because she's the Goddess of Hyperactivity in the House of Emotion, and Rico took a level in butt kicking in Killzone 3... that means that we got the ideal candidate for The Millstone: Lance Vance.

I'll agree with this and will add both to the disgraces as co-god of the swiss messenger, replacing Misa Toriizaki.

it's been amonth and no changes have come yet. You better do it now.

Remember that there's the rule of No Real Life Examples Please in play here. Which means, no author or creator of things that exist in real life. Not even Christian Weston Chandler of Sonichu, who we'd put as much as we'd love to (he was once here, but removed).

If Mangogirl/Manogirl (which one again) is fictional, then go ahead and put her in. If not... pick one of her creations that represent that trope you speak of.

What about Ronan Beelzub, that person is a fictional character. What's wrong with puttin him in. If you're wondering if it Manogirl or Mangogirl, it's Mangogirl. How about if I put Mangogirl's Warhammer 40000 story "Squad Broken". That seems horrifying enough to warrant a position in the Disgraces. Anyways, what got Peter sent to the Disgraces? Just asking.

Ronan is a fanfic character.

Well, let's add him in.

Ronan Beelzub, God of Horrifying Erotica

• Lesser God (Formerly a Greater God)
• Symbol: Team 7 Logo.
• Alignment: Chaotic Evil
• Portfolio: Squick, Being a Horrible Boyfriend, Hollywood Atheism, Non-PC "heroism", God-Mode Sue, Excessively Large Genitalia, Karma Houdini.
• Domains: Lust, Homophobia, Sexism, Atheism
• Followers: None. Because even actual atheists are abhorred with what he did.
• Opposed by: Naruto Uzumaki
• His soul was sealed into a container by Mary-Sue Hunter Edfred. While the container was meant to be locked away, it was taken by the people of Marysuetopia to serve as a replacement for the long-absent Oscar. Ronan was freed and given a new body so he could actively take his spot.
• Was depowered in order to keep him from taking over Marysuetopia.
• Has a love-hate relationship with Ebony, since Ronan considers her a whore, but still wants to **** her.
  • Ebony meanwhile hates him for not being "goff" enough, despite how "hawt" he is.
• Kant spel tou sav hiss live.
• Position: Spy (in the Court of Perfection)
• Chance of Redemption: Low to zilch. The very thing to make it 'low' was if that 'Benji's Ending' was planned all along from the start. Otherwise, everyone else hates him.

He was once removed because of his fanfic page being removed to accomodate with the new rules in TVT. I wonder if that rule still stands right now. If it still stands, he can get re-added.

Fair warning: Ronan was once REMOVED from the pantheon altogether. Please please please think carefully before you even try to re-add him.

So, for the others who are more well-versed in the TVT Rules... what says you?

I'm fairly certain that the rules were once NVR and TGWL got cut, so did their respective gods. Plus, bringing Rose back would be damaging to the canon of the Disgraces, since her removal was the catalyst for Blaise's redemption and Ebony's ascent to Archmage. Bringing her back under a new position undermines those changes.

Now if, and ONLY IF, the two fics find themselves back on Tropes that I'd be fine with having them back in the Disgraces, as both were good elements. Hell, Edward and Bella's previous redemption was an attempt to salvage an earlier storyline where Ronan and Ebony would've become the Rulers of Marysuetopia.

But as it stands, they don't have pages on TV Tropes so I feel that no, they should not be included.

As for Peter's induction, he was there to replace Homer Simpson, who was the previous god, since I read through the D Mo S page for Family Guy at that time and felt that Peter was a far worse father than Homer.

Well, who could take the title as God/ Goddess of Author Filibuster and Cultural Posturing? Anyways how come TGWL got cut? It doesn't look too raunchy to me. I can understand as to why Naruto Veangance Revelaitons was cut. As for having characters restricted to fiction only allowable on T Vtropes, I don't really agree well with it.

There's more evidence as to why peter ended up here:

• The HUGE amount of Dethroning Moments of Suck in the series, most of which are caused by Peter Griffin, either direct or indirect.
• Peter's increasingly Jerkass behavior towards anyone, especially to Meg.
• Peter's increasing Stupidity as the series progresses.
• Any of Peter's jokes nowadays fall under Dude, Not Funny! territory, pretty much indicating that he's becoming increasingly tasteless, vulgar, offensive, unfunny, patronizing and catering to the very lowest forms of society, descending to the levels of Jason Friedberg And Aaron Seltzer in terms of funniness, creativity and originality

We made it fiction only since writing about real life people runs a great risk of Flame Bait and in the long run mostly was clutter. As for the TGWL, it wasn't a matter of raunchiness, but of the fact that it was a hot-button to feature a fic in which undersage girls (which a good number of female characters in Harry Potter were) in sexual situations described in great detail. This wasn't even something that could be swept under cultural differences as the girls were not the legal age in either the US or the UK.

As for the titles? At this point I don't feel like that's a primary concern for us. I'm currently adjusting to the change in structure brought on by the additions of Renesmee and Jacob. Maybe when things have settled down here, then I'd be more willing to discuss that.

If you want to represent Manogirl's works, then we need to use Gurk, the Ork protagonist of the infamous "Squad Broken". That "work" is so infamous that it is literately a Berserk Button for the 40k fandom. The words squad broken got shouted out loud at the 2008 Games Day LA and the entire crowd looked at the guy with a pissed off lock. I should know, I was there.

Gurk, God of Squick and Brain Bleach

• Rank: Quasi Diety
• Symbol: An empty canister of Brain Bleach
• Alignment: Chaotic Evil.
• Portfolio: Brain Bleach, Lemon Fic, Squick.
• Domains: Chaos, Evil, Depravity, "Love"
• Followers:
• Allies: Slaanesh
• Enemies: Every good and neutral aligned member of the House of Love, Ghazkull, Thrall, Mork and Gork.
• Posistion in Mary Sue Topia: Writer of "romance" stories.
• Upon reading Squad Broken, the court of the gods had a collective Heroic BSOD as their brains broke. It took a combination of a love talk from archangel Flonne, the couragous speeches of Kamina, Bang, and Naruto, and the firey purgation of the unholy "works" by Vulkan, Adell, and Zuko in order to snap the court out of it.
• Chance of Redemption: Absolutely zero.