Gameplay and Story Segregation: Bob is considered among the strongest members of his group story-wise, but gameplay-wise a consensus of players single him out as one of the weakest due to his lack of versatility.
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07:54:52 PM 18th Dec 2014
I don't think so, relies too much on opinion that it seem subjective.
07:54:58 PM 18th Dec 2014
It reads a very YMMV to me. a consensus composed of whom? It feels like an opinion trying to be dressed as a trope.
07:58:14 PM 18th Dec 2014
If he was statistically the weakest and/or least versatile character, then it should be noted but rewritten to not sound like it was YMMV.
07:05:08 AM 19th Dec 2014
Yes, if you can safely say he's the worst, then that would be fine. The writeup there sounds like it's YMMV when it doesn't have to be.
06:43:45 AM 19th Dec 2014
Why has the page for Brother Bear been locked for several months?
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03:07:05 PM 16th Dec 2014
Because of a certain vandal who has kept us busy since 2012.
03:11:30 PM 16th Dec 2014
Steps you should take when you want to edit a locked page:
Check Locked Pages to see why it's locked. If the reason precludes any edits, don't bother. But that's rare.
Otherwise, post your proposed edit in this thread, and if it's appropriate, a mod should make it.
04:21:30 PM 16th Dec 2014 edited by RabidTanker
To be fair, the mods usually forget to update the Locked Pages
05:37:16 PM 16th Dec 2014
So you can ask for an update to Locked Pages in the thread Solip linked. :p (Being sort of silly.)
12:00:14 AM 17th Dec 2014
We have avoided listing the pages locked because of that particular individual.
06:43:45 AM 19th Dec 2014
I was just going to add something random when I noticed it. Thanks for the info.
05:22:53 AM 19th Dec 2014 edited by supergod
I came across a quote on this page that is attributed to a troper and was added by the same troper. I haven't seen any examples of this sort of thing before, so I'm not sure if it's allowed or not.
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05:22:53 AM 19th Dec 2014 edited by DracMonster
Quoting himself? Holy narcissism Batman! You can safely squish it.
I can see one difference: Fantastic Science seems to be about the scientific study of phenomena that don't exist in our world, but do in a fantasy world (e.g. zoologists studying the biology of unicorns in a world where they exist), while a Fictional Field of Science could (but doesn't have to) apply to our world, or a world with the same laws of nature. An example of the latter is Asimov's psychohistory: the subject it studies is real enough (the collective psychology of entire nations of people) but the science itself is fictional.
I think it's a matter of definition whether Fantastic Science is a subtrope or not. The biology of unicorns is of course a fictional field of science in the sense that it doesn't exist in our world, but you could argue that if the fictional scientists use exactly the same methods as real-world zoologists, then the field of science itself isn't fictional, just its subject.
04:48:58 AM 19th Dec 2014
General etiquette question: As a courtesy to the page's creator, how long do you let a trope-less, (mostly) description-less works page sit before you cutlist it? IRL happens, I get that, but this particular page has already been cut once for being launched and then left empty.
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09:00:44 AM 18th Dec 2014
^ I don't think there's any excuse for it. There's no reason a page should be launched incomplete, IRL or no IRL. If you can't write up a complete draft, then leave the incomplete draft offline until it's ready. Nobody ever said you actually have to type the whole thing in the space of a 20-minute edit reservation.
I say message the creator and post a link to the page in the YKTTW Crash Rescue Thread. It will get cutlisted if the creator doesn't respond and Wiki Magic doesn't swoop in to save the day.
Especially if it's already been prematurely launched and cut once before.
09:07:51 AM 18th Dec 2014 edited by DracMonster
If I'm understanding this correctly, someone recreated a crap page after it was cut. They should be reported in that case so a mod can smack them upside the head. Which page is it?
09:08:00 AM 18th Dec 2014
Well, what I do is that I message the creator (the "stub" custom message) and then post the work article in the YKTTW Crash Rescue thread. I go back every day to the report I made 3 days ago and if a work page in that report didn't improve it goes on the cutlist.
09:16:27 AM 18th Dec 2014
^ Done. Thanks for clearing that up, all.
07:02:34 PM 18th Dec 2014
We have the Sandbox namespace for incomplete pages on published works if someone doesn't want to work on it offline for whatever reason. There is no reason to leave an unfinished page hanging around, especially twice.
I've got a problem:
On Headscratchers.Pokemon Ruby And Sapphire, a group of people are apparently pondering on whether Zinnia's being a hypocrite or not. They even broke Example Indentation in order to have a conversation by having a fourth bullet point that's disabled by the software of this forums, leading me to suspect that it also violates Natter (that, and the fact that it includes both Word Cruft and first person pronouns).
The thing is, the entries are too verbose for me to figure out how to fix them.
How to apogize to a troper that blocked your messages? I overreated during PM'ing, and this page, and would like to send an apology for that to Drake Clawfang. I'm not asking for unblocking my messages to him, just if an moderator, or someone else could send an apology in my name.
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10:39:47 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
You can "ping" them by typing ~Tropers/DrakeClawfang in the forums. I'm not sure if it will get around the PM block, though, or if it would be considered a faux pas to use it that way if it does get around it.
10:44:50 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by Griever222
Thank you for the information, although I wait till someone informs me if it's indeed in bad taste, or not, to "ping" someone who blocked you.
10:50:14 AM 17th Dec 2014
^ That's probably best.
05:02:24 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by Griever222
So, anyone got an opinion about this, or an alternate solution?
12:50:12 AM 18th Dec 2014
Do you have a Time Machine? or you could plant Fake Memories. Just kidding. I think it's great you want to make amends.
Solip's suggestion on pinging: wouldn't that work on ATT too?
03:56:18 AM 18th Dec 2014
I'm not sure, I could try...Do you think it would be in good taste, to do so?
05:35:13 AM 18th Dec 2014
Drake checks ATT... if you post it here, I'm sure he'll see it.
08:20:20 AM 18th Dec 2014
Does he, though? I CTRL+F'd that handle and all I came up with was when he came in here specifically to address a concern he was having with Griever. If that was his only reason for checking here, then he might not be back now that he's blocked the troper he was having a disagreement with.
But eh, just for the hell of it, to see if it works: ~Drake Clawfang.
11:09:51 AM 18th Dec 2014
Pretty sure he checks the "Recent Discussions" list (as he's quickly posted on a few discussions I started), so I assume he checks ATT while he's at it.
12:16:16 PM 18th Dec 2014
^^ Don't quote me, since I only found out about it a few days ago, but I think that markup only works in the forums.
12:28:42 PM 18th Dec 2014
^ Yeah, I thought that might be the case. Just tried it in case.
02:43:03 PM 18th Dec 2014
Well, thanks for trying SolipSchism, even if it didn't work.
So guys, you thnk I should just post the apologny here, or try the "binging" method on the forum?
02:48:47 PM 18th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
Well, I'll shoot him a PM, but I don't want there to be any question about me getting in the middle of a personal dispute, so in the interests of transparency, my message is going to be:
Yo, Griever222 has asked that someone send you a PM apologizing on his behalf for being rude. He is not asking you to unblock him, and I wouldn't convey such a message if he was; he just wanted to apologize. Feel free to drop into ATT if you'd like to respond, as his request is in an ongoing thread there.
EDIT: Message sent.
03:09:44 PM 18th Dec 2014
Ok, thank you very much for sending this message.
03:17:12 PM 18th Dec 2014
No problem. I just held off because I think it's generally a bad idea to try and "get around" things like blocks, bans, suspensions, edit locks, what-have-you. But this seems harmless enough. I'm always down to help someone that wants to act like a decent human being. :p
03:26:47 PM 18th Dec 2014
03:27:36 PM 18th Dec 2014
He replied. I think it's considered bad form to share the content of PMs, but at least you know he's aware of the message. I'll let him post here, or not, as he pleases.
06:58:19 PM 18th Dec 2014
And Drake has posted here before. It's just been a while, and threads drop off the page after a while. That's what the "Find queries containing" search at the top is for, although I've noticed it works better with deliberately typed text than the stuff the system automatically adds.
06:55:22 PM 18th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
Could somebody take a look at the Robots and Empire example in the Literature section of Zeroth Law Rebellion? It's a mess of bullets and sub-bullets, and it's nearly as long as all the other Literature examples combined—and that section is not exactly lacking for Literature examples.
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03:30:38 PM 18th Dec 2014
Yeah,that one is full of natter. I'll get on that and doublecheck the crosswicks.
03:46:56 PM 18th Dec 2014
Appreciate it. I know I look lazy, but I honestly don't think I've ever read anything by Asomiv. Which... it sort of seems like that example is.
Although from what I can see, many of those sub-bullets aren't even about the same book.
06:55:22 PM 18th Dec 2014
I hear you. I've read a lot of Asimov stuff, but Robots and Empire never really grabbed my attention.
That said, that is terribly formatted. That's probably a stellar example of what the mods mean when they tell people that allowing natter turns pages into thread mode.
05:08:13 PM 18th Dec 2014 edited by nrjxll
Literally between seconds, all forum threads have begun refusing to load for me. They're not timing out or anything - I'm instantly getting a "Server not found" message.
Edit: And now it's cleared up, just as suddenly.
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12:30:22 PM 18th Dec 2014
Is there a term for a Cerebus Syndrome sort of shift not in tone, but in genre? Say that a show is advertised as a hard SF thing, but suddenly there's a plot twist and it turns out that's all fake and actually it's all about developing ESP.
As with Cerebus Syndrome, the people who start watching it for the hard SF feel gypped at the plot twist, and people who don't like hard SF but do like ESP stuff don't realize they should tune in.
It sounds like the OP is describing a Genre Shift — "not in tone, but in genre".
And, SolipSchism, surely Science Fantasy doesn't require a shift? The show could be mixing the hard SF with fantasy mumbo-jumbo from the start.
^ and ^^ It doesn't require a shift, but a shift would fit in the trope.
11:55:42 AM 18th Dec 2014 edited by supergod
Yeah, and it would make sense to add Science Fantasy to the list of tropes if it includes elements of both no matter when and where they're introduced, but the trope itself doesn't indicate a shift. I guess it could be written as, "Blah Blah Blah starts out as fairly hard science fiction, but ends up introducing several magical elements by the end", but Genre Shift works better for that. If it's a case where something that was initially explained as being caused by "science" later turns out to be actually caused by magic, there's also Doing In the Scientist.
Science Fantasy wouldn't work this case anyway, because ESP is generally considered to be a sci-fi element (even if it has no basis in real life science).
Memetic Mutation needs a good going through of every page to provide context, Don't Explain the Joke DOES NOT apply here. If you check the main Memetic Mutation page, it's meant to have a note saying the explanation next to it. And you would need to explain the example. Also, I would like that page to say the name of each show and then put the memes in, like you're meant to, instead of obfuscating it. It's going to be a nightmare to clean.
08:26:51 AM 18th Dec 2014 edited by supergod
Could someone change the title of SaGa to "Saga"? I don't think I've ever seen the title of the comic written with the letter "G" capitalized and the two letters "a" in lowercase.
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12:17:41 PM 17th Dec 2014
It probably hasn't; it's because of VideoGame.SaGa having a custom title, which affects all subpages.
Honestly not sure how mods fix that.
12:39:34 PM 17th Dec 2014
Is it related to the video game? If not, hopefully there's a fix. If it is related, then I'd guess it's probably harmless, but hopefully there's a fix anyway.
12:48:20 PM 17th Dec 2014
It's the old problem of two works with two different titles colliding. There is no fix except by moving one work under a different title - say, move VideoGame.Sa Ga to VideoGame.Sa Ga Series.
12:51:57 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by supergod
^^Nope. No relation.
12:54:27 PM 17th Dec 2014
In the current design of the wiki, there's no fix. In our proposed redesign, custom titles will hopefully play nicely with other articles with the same base title.
01:33:08 PM 17th Dec 2014
^ Neat. I think I remember reading something like that elsewhere on the site. Fortunately it's not a super common problem.
02:39:50 PM 17th Dec 2014
It is common enough to be a recurrent issue, in fact.
05:37:55 AM 18th Dec 2014
Part of the problem is I think the works most likely to use custom titles are single word works... which are also the most likely to have another work by the same name.
08:26:51 AM 18th Dec 2014
Looking at the list of games in that series, there doesn't seem to be any that's simply called "SaGa", so maybe if the changes aren't implemented, renaming it to Sa Ga Series might be worth thinking about.
08:22:20 AM 18th Dec 2014 edited by Tropesofknowledge
And edit warring (see the Girl-Show Ghetto example), and removing YMMV items for reasons that are expressly not to be used for removal of YMMV items, i.e., disagreeing with subjective information such as how popular a show is.
02:41:26 PM 12th Dec 2014
Messaged and got an apology back. Fingers crossed.
02:41:45 PM 12th Dec 2014 edited by SatoshiBakura
Ah, I've seen him on review pages before. That guy really hates the Power Puff Girls. I say a suspension and a time out are necessary.
Edit: Never mind. I just hope he doesn't bother the page again.
02:49:41 PM 12th Dec 2014
I see. Can I get a revert on the page?
03:06:58 PM 12th Dec 2014
03:12:46 PM 12th Dec 2014
You're the best.
03:24:03 PM 12th Dec 2014 edited by MegaJ
I was just about to come here because he's removing a Powerpuff Girls example from Girl-Show Ghetto with weak reasoning and he even P Med a snide remark. I added the example again.
12:54:50 PM 17th Dec 2014
I'm totally sorry for my editing of the articles in a not-so-nice tone. But please be aware that I am deleting obvious untruths, not opinions.
12:59:09 PM 17th Dec 2014
And regardless of what happens with the article, I will stay out of it from now until we reach an agreement here. But I request that the article not get locked.
12:59:27 PM 17th Dec 2014
... no? You're edit-warring and overriding opinions with your own.
01:02:05 PM 17th Dec 2014
How the hell is what I'm deleting based on opinion?!
01:05:54 PM 17th Dec 2014
There is no proof at all that these entries are "untruths", obvious or no. Your edit reasons provide no argument in favour, either.
01:08:26 PM 17th Dec 2014
Until these entries are proved to be examples of opinion, I don't think they belong there.
01:11:42 PM 17th Dec 2014
Here's an example of what I removed: "And despite the ass-kicking, the girls were pretty girly." True for Bubbles and Blossom, but not for Buttercup. Buttercup is a tomboy, not a girly girl. Since when is Buttercup girly?
01:23:19 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
And edit-warring with a mod, now, looking at the new edits today. There is a difference between a not-so-nice tone and an Edit War. Both are ill-advised, and you're doing both.
A good indication that you're not really arguing your point very well, especially on this site, is when you start using sarcasm, phrases like "how the hell", and super excited punctuation like "?!".
Just state your stance and support it with facts and reasoning. Somebody is always going to disagree with you on something. It's not a personal attack. When you turn it into a personal attack, you only weaken your own position and make people even less likely to take you seriously.
01:23:35 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by Larkmarn
The girls as a whole are quite girly, in terms of Girl-Show Ghetto. Even though she's a serious tomboy, she's still a two foot tall cartoon character in pastels with eyes half the size of her head. Even if she weren't, it wouldn't make the entry for Girl-Show Ghetto any less valid that there's a non-girly character in the main cast.
And I can support the Ms. Bellum cut because it's a ZCE, but the Rowdyruff Boys was an awful cut.
And honestly, your attitude and edit reasons aren't giving me a lot of incentive to give you the benefit of the doubt.
01:26:52 PM 17th Dec 2014
Like I should know the difference. I came here less than a month ago. I'm really sorry for edit-warring, by the way. The problem is, this site is all messed up, and I don't know how to navigate through all of it. Regardless of what happens, my edit wars are finished.
01:27:34 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by SatoshiBakura
From what I see, it's the only untruth there is. Everything else is unjustified in removal. You should know that people who like the Power Puff Girls do exist, and there are a lot of them. Now, there might be others who share your opinion, but that doesn't take away the fact that there are people who don't share your opinion. So please stop with messing around with the page, because you going purely based on what you think of the show and not what others think.
Edit: I hate ninjas. But you need to know that there is a way we do things on the site. Not nice tones are not appreciated. This is TV Tropes, not 4chan.
01:30:18 PM 17th Dec 2014
^^ I made an edit to my last post but I suspect it's too far back to draw attention to itself, so: Part of your problem is that you're getting very defensive and upset about this whole issue. You'll be doing yourself a favor if you just state your stance and support it with facts and reasoning. Nobody is attacking you personally, so there's no need to get upset about it. People are just disagreeing with you. You should address their concerns instead of making unilateral edits that are clearly causing some dissent.
01:32:54 PM 17th Dec 2014
Larkmam: OK, I guess the Rowdyruff Boys bit may be readded. And Buttercup still doesn't have a reason to be regarded as girly, being whatever height she is, and how big her eyes are.
01:34:44 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by Larkmarn
Before you made deletions, you really ought to use the discussion pages. I've been going through your history lot of your deletions are... questionable, at best. And a lot have a single word or fact you take issue with, so you delete the example outright.
Here's a page that could really have used some discussion. It's got questionable deletions, not to mention unilaterally moving a character. We're a community, remember. Big unilateral decisions like that are frowned upon.
EDIT: They're still girls who are the leads of a show. You seem to have an issue with understanding what Girl-Show Ghetto means.
01:39:31 PM 17th Dec 2014
I just noticed that the show is hilariously present in both example lists on Girl-Show Ghetto, as a straight example and as an example of a show that breaks out of the Ghetto.
But with regard to the work page entry, I have to agree with Larkmarn. Her characterization is butch. Everything else is pretty girly. Her art style, which coincides with that of the other girls; the show's premise; even the title of the show suggests that you're about to watch a girly show.
Besides all of which, YMMV entries are not to be removed for any reason except factual inaccuracies or misuse of a trope. If something is subjective, i.e., "Powerpuff Girls is a girly name for a show", that it's irrelevant as far as "justification" to remove a trope.
I will say that the context provided for the Girl-Show Ghetto is pretty sparse, and should be expanded a bit. But you're not providing much of an argument to axe the example. "One of the characters isn't girly" wouldn't disprove the trope, even if it were true, and even that is under question.
01:42:26 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by Classicalfan626
For me, there's no way there are that many people who like the Powerpuff Girls. Yet you, Satoshi Bakura, insist there are "a lot". I think the show is quite unpopular, and does not resonate that much with the vast majority of people.
01:46:40 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by Classicalfan626
And I guess it all depends on how one defines "girly". According to my definition, "girly" does not apply to Buttercup, and that throws part of the statement off, to me.
And you people try to make "girly" out to have a complex definition, when it shouldn't be that complex at all. For me, "girly" simply means characteristic of girls, and Buttercup averts that characteristic by being a tomboy, throwing the rest of that "Girl Show Ghetto" statement far from truth.
01:48:10 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by Larkmarn
... if that's the case, then you're letting your own opinions cloud your judgment. That's... that's not even an opinion. You can't say "to me, it's not popular." It either is or it isn't. And it's got a very large following. Largely though periphery demographic. That's... not really opinion.
Anyhoo, this isn't the place to discuss specific examples. It should be done on the individual pages. Please keep that in mind before you make wholesale deletions.
01:53:41 PM 17th Dec 2014
Also, YMMV stands for Your Mileage May Vary. It means you may not personally agree with examples. But unless there are verifiable factual errors or misuse of the definition of a trope, such examples stay.
It is perfectly acceptable to have directly-conflicting YMMV examples on a page, as long as they each have adequate context. TV Tropes does not have an opinion. Your opinion about a subjective idea does not constitute grounds to remove anything from a YMMV page. You can add whatever you want, if you give it adequate context.
To add to Larkmarn, it sounds a little counterintuitive, but there's no method we use to determine whether a show is "popular" or not, so claims that a show is popular or not are pretty much irrelevant. As long as the example has context, it doesn't matter how popular it actually is or is not. But the context still has to be appropriate.
One good thing has come of this, though: This minor debacle has reminded me that Powerpuff Girls exist, and now I want to go watch it again. Nostalgia Filter, ho!
01:55:13 PM 17th Dec 2014
"A very large following", says the King of England. Where's your documented evidence of such a thing? Got any undisputed proof of that?
01:59:27 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by Classicalfan626
Alright, if you guys insist on those specific examples staying, maybe I should put the Powerpuff Girls themselves under that "Love to Hate" list in the YMMV page. Should I not?
02:01:13 PM 17th Dec 2014
... which would be misuse because it's a villain trope. YMMV is where we record opinions, but we don't want to go out of our way to record bashing, you know.
02:07:03 PM 17th Dec 2014
Perhaps I don't fully understand how YMMV works. I'm just really, really confused. I just don't get it, and I'm sorry.
02:07:57 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by SatoshiBakura
Love to Hate isn't even a bashing trope. It's just "I like this villain because they are such a dick".
YMMV records opinions on the fanbase as a whole, not individual opinions. If a work has multiple reviews, check to see any overarching likes/dislikes in the reviews before adding an entry.
02:30:00 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
^^ The first problem is, again, that you're being very snide about almost everything you're saying. I don't want to sound like we live in a police state that forbids unhappiness, but we're only interested in having respectful discussions with everyone on equal footing. No one looks down on any one else, and no one needs to get rude.
As I mentioned, "popular" is not something TV Tropes disputes. The rest of the example may or may not be proven by objective fact. That's the important part.
I suggest reading up on Administrivia pages relevant to YMMV, editing guidelines, How to Write an Example, and so on.
And to be honest, a lot of the time I don't even make edits if I have any doubts at all; I post the question here in ATT to see if I'm just crazy or if the edit is legitimate. Particularly when removing anything from YMMV, it wouldn't hurt to come here and say "I think X example on Y page is wrong because Z. Is that a good enough reason to axe it?"
EDIT: Also, a lot of this is due to the fact that we don't like to attack people; many YMMV tropes are opinion, and thus, axing them can seem like a personal attack if it's not thoroughly justified by site policy. So any time you're cutting something from YMMV, it's best to be sure that you're in the right.
Classicalfan: Powerpuff Girls had enough of a fan following to justify its own theatrically-released movie. The studio would not have done that if the show was not popular, because studios are in the business to make money. Further, Powerpuff Girl merchandise is still being made and still selling, years after the initial series, which indicates that fans and those who know fans are buying the stuff. From an economic standpoint alone, it is blatantly obvious that Powerpuff girls is financially viable, and therefore must have an extensive fan base.
Go ahead and hate on the show personally if you like; there's a whole bunch of Darth Wiki tropes for that kind of thing. But quit edit warring or you will wind up edit suspended. And you will not be the first troper in the edit banned/suspended thread who started making a mess without learning the culture, and who insisted on slapping their hate on the main wiki.
05:06:39 AM 18th Dec 2014
Reverted and suspended.
08:22:20 AM 18th Dec 2014
Not to turn this into 4chan, but they do have a neat little mantra over there that I think applies here: lurk moar. :p
07:53:54 AM 18th Dec 2014
Raina and Abby7 are edit warring about the Haruka Nanase example in the Myer Briggs pages.
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10:07:24 AM 16th Dec 2014
Uh, what page(s)?
10:11:01 AM 16th Dec 2014 edited by DracMonster
Here, but "edit warring" is a bit of a stretch, I don't think they're even aware of each other. If that entry gets shifted again, maybe so.
10:14:56 AM 16th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
If you go back further, you'll see that abby7 and leviisanistp had a classic Edit War, changing [* Levi and Annie Leonhardt from ''Manga/AttackOnTitan''] to [* Annie Leonhardt from ''Manga/AttackOnTitan''] and back again quite a few times.
Raina moved a line of text, and abby7 moved it back. I wouldn't call that an Edit War, but abby7 and leviisanistp definitely had an earlier incident on that page.
EDIT: Actually, if you go back even further, abby7 and Raina had an identical exchange over the Haruka Nanase example on 22 November. This is definitely an ongoing thing. appy7 seems to have a penchant for reversing others' edits on this page, but that's no excuse for engaging with them as Raina and leviisanistp have been doing.
EDIT EDIT: Raina has been editing that specific example since the beginning of September. And it looks like several people have been moving it around and adding and deleting it. Kind of makes me wonder why entries under the Myers-Briggs pages apparently don't require any context. :/
10:31:44 AM 16th Dec 2014
Being a control freak on a Just for Fun page is very ironic.
11:10:32 AM 16th Dec 2014
It would be even funnier if the personality type in question were known to often be control freaks. XD
12:15:01 PM 16th Dec 2014
These pages are very popular and also very big edit war magnets. I am not even sure how to begin fixing this thing.
12:48:44 PM 16th Dec 2014
^ If it were up to me, I'd axe all examples to start fresh, and require context for all examples. I mean, I know they're Just for Fun pages, but damn.
05:39:36 PM 16th Dec 2014
If I had a call, I'd suspend all warring parties to come in and explain themselves. That is just ridiculous.
I also like Solip's suggestion.
08:59:53 AM 17th Dec 2014
^ Yeah, that would also help in this particular case.
02:00:30 PM 17th Dec 2014
Raina switched the place of the example again.
02:31:17 PM 17th Dec 2014
02:44:09 PM 17th Dec 2014
Not only did they already get suspended once, it was on that exact page. Suspending again.
01:08:42 AM 18th Dec 2014
dejaloahi changed the example again, in their first edit.
05:31:29 AM 18th Dec 2014
...why don't they just make a big neon sign? In plaid, even. Bumping for fear of it getting buried.
07:53:54 AM 18th Dec 2014
Hrm? They moved it back to where it was before Raina changed it.
05:36:54 AM 18th Dec 2014 edited by s4karuna
User Gardener King made a biased and erroneous write up in The Flash (2014), the original unedited post being:
By making Barry Allen's love-interest from the comics his adopted sister for all intents and purposes, the show has essentially made his love for her incestuous. In the show's back-story, Barry's mother was killed when he was a young child, his father went to prison for it, and he, Barry, was adopted by his neighbor, Joe West, who raised Barry along with his daughter Iris. When Joe finds out that Barry is in love with Iris, and not in a fraternal way, he is not at all unhappy about it. Yet another reason to hope that Barry ends up with Caitlin instead.
There have been complaints about this in the discussion boards: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Series.TheFlash2014&id=90702#90702
see/hide 12 replies
06:50:23 AM 12th Dec 2014 edited by DracMonster
He's not edit warring and is discussing his position. I'm not seeing anything that needs a mod action.
I do think both sides need to learn to be more succinct in stating their points, though - I couldn't bring myself to actually read those walls of text.
08:10:57 AM 12th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
He kind of is edit warring, very mildly. He added it; someone changed it (though the change was a very bad Justifying Edit that was basically "This trope doesn't really apply here.") He changed it back, someone commented it out, he uncommented it. That's three times he's added it, essentially.
I don't see a huge issue yet, but I can certainly see escalation.
08:37:48 AM 12th Dec 2014 edited by DracMonster
Oh, didn't see that, it must be in the deeper history.
09:11:49 AM 12th Dec 2014
Yep, 's in the deeper history. Don't see anything actionable yet but if it continues I'll take action.
04:04:55 PM 16th Dec 2014 edited by s4karuna
He's added the entry again and he's added the following in the notes in the history:
Also, you are clearly wrong, since the trope clearly allows for cases that are not blood siblings or half-siblings, and, in fact, Not Blood Siblings is a subtrope of Brother Sister Incest.
04:18:24 PM 16th Dec 2014
12:04:08 AM 17th Dec 2014
See the discussion page, please.
01:48:54 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by GnomeTitan
A metaquestion: suppose we have a case like this, where there exists two different interpretations of an example. The tropers are well behaved and don't start an edit war, but take it to the discussion page. But the discussion doesn't lead to a consensus, but the sides in the debate just keep going "Is!" "Isn't!".
What should be done about the example in such a case? Can a moderator decide? Or should the example just be left out until a consensus is reached?
04:07:51 AM 17th Dec 2014
If someone is getting rude or is unwilling to drop their stance even when proven wrong call a moderator here. Otherwise, once agreement is reached you can go with that.
08:47:01 AM 17th Dec 2014
So at this point, would it be safe to assume that there should be no more movement on that example in the immediate future (barring new information from the series, I guess)? Thus, any similar edits postdating the one from 16 December by ablackraptor should be cause for serious concern?
04:52:10 PM 17th Dec 2014
from my understanding, yeah(and having watched the show, I agree with what everyone's come up with)
05:36:54 AM 18th Dec 2014
TailsDoll Medium: Videogame
12:16:29 PM 17th Dec 2014 edited by TailsDoll
Pokémon Peace Squad refers to a "fangame" that doesn't actually exist. Shouldn't it be in the Darth Wiki along with other unpublished/nonexistent works?
It also has multiple wicks on the main site.
see/hide 13 replies
09:40:22 PM 16th Dec 2014
Yup. If the game doesn't actually exist it needs to go to Darth - and have any subpages purged.
11:15:30 PM 16th Dec 2014
And wicks nuked. Darth Wiki doesn't get any main site wicks.
11:58:57 PM 16th Dec 2014
Technically, it's a not-yet published game but with plenty of information already out. I don't think these belong in Darth Wiki but they have always been in a grey zone.
06:41:54 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by Fighteer
There are various stages of "not existing". These include: "exists only in a person's imagination", "exists in theory on paper/computer somewhere but nobody's ever seen it", "is in development/production but who knows if it'll ever get published", and "is being made and will almost certainly get published".
Only in the latter case should we consider a main wiki article for it. It helps if there is promotional material or someone other than the author has seen the actual product and can vouch for it. For fan works especially, I'd strongly recommend keeping them in Darth Wiki until there's proof that the thing exists and is being published. We've had too many encounters with people pimping their pet projects — or in some cases, their imaginary projects — that turn out to be vapor.
If it's completely "imaginary" (bad word there. All works of fiction, published or no, are "imaginary"), what are the things in the links?
10:25:10 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
^ I'm guessing it's all conceptual. The Video Game page starts with a sentence saying the title is a "series of fan-game ideas and descriptions"... which is not a Video Game. Everything else probably just branched out from there.
EDIT: And yeah, I'd cut all the subpages as well if it hasn't been done already.
10:25:11 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
10:59:57 AM 17th Dec 2014
I've added the subpages to the Cutlist. It seems to me that Pokemon Peace Squadm is just a bunch of fangame concepts from Sunflorazumarill. None of the games described on the page are in any sort of development by the creator or anyone else.
12:11:36 PM 17th Dec 2014
If that user tries to repost any of the deleted content, let us know and we'll issue a suspension. A PM not to salt the wiki with his imaginary games might also be in order.
12:16:29 PM 17th Dec 2014
The links are all to forum posts where they just... describe a game that will never be made. In surprising detail, mind you. But still, it's completely imaginary.
11:45:56 AM 17th Dec 2014
Are brackets (Like this) allowed in examples?
see/hide 9 replies
12:39:47 AM 17th Dec 2014
Sure. That said, the example context should not be in brackets.
01:45:31 AM 17th Dec 2014
Note that Para Bombing — inserting long digressions in brackets in existing examples — is frowned upon, though. It can be seen as a type of natter.
Natter is natter, whether in the form of a sub-bullet or a parenthetical addition. Focus on the content, not the form. For example, compare these two:
The Ditz: Alice can't ever seem to find anything she's looking for and forgets people's names. (Justified because of a head injury.)
The Ditz: Alice can't ever seem to find anything she's looking for and forgets people's names.
Justified because of a head injury.
Both are a Justifying Edit. The example should be rewritten to make it look like one statement, not two.
The Ditz: Because of a head injury, Alice can't ever seem to find anything she's looking for and forgets people's names.
10:28:13 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
^ Yeah, but not all parenthetical asides are natter or Justifying Edits. Consider this line from Literature.Zones Of Thought:
"The Tines have two different number systems: one where they count "by legs" (in base 4) and one where they count "by fore-claws" (in base 10)."
The parentheses are pretty harmless there.
10:58:06 AM 17th Dec 2014
Correct. That's why I said that context matters.
11:06:18 AM 17th Dec 2014
Oh, I think I misunderstood your overall point. Missed the forest for the trees, as it were.
11:08:43 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by GnomeTitan
The reason I brought up Para Bombing was in case the OP had somehow gotten the impression that all parentheses are to be avoided in examples. I wanted to point out that it's not the brackets that are bad, but the habit of using them to insert natter.
And I think that in a way Para Bombing can be worse than sub-bullet nattering, because if I insert a justifying edit in parentheses in the middle of an example, I break up the flow of the original article. Adding the justifying edit as a sub-bullet (ugly as it is) at least leaves the original text alone.
11:45:56 AM 17th Dec 2014
^ And is much easier to nuke. :p
11:45:07 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
A minor quibble. The page image on Giving Radio to the Romans isn't linked to anything. It's a bunch of Roman soldiers in modern tactical vehicles. If anyone is familiar with it, could you Pot Hole it to the appropriate work page?
EDIT Same with E.T. Gave Us Wi-Fi, but I'm pretty sure that image is a screenshot from a commercial.
see/hide 11 replies
04:22:55 PM 16th Dec 2014
Check the related page, I'm reading over 100 links on both of them.
04:33:26 PM 16th Dec 2014
What? I'm just saying the page image isn't linked to anything. If it's from a work, it should be linked to the work.
From How to Pick a Good Image: "Most images don't have the title of the work in them — which is a problem, since people will likely want to know what work an image is from. Fortunately, we have ways of getting around this — the most common method is to simply wrap the image itself in a Pot Hole link, making the image clickable."
I'm just throwing this out there in case someone knows the work, because I fell into the above situation: I happened upon the picture, I'm curious what it's from, but there's no way to tell because it's just a picture and the caption is unhelpful.
04:34:10 PM 16th Dec 2014
What? I'm just saying the page image isn't linked to anything, and if it's form a work, it would be helpful to link to the work. From How to Pick a Good Image: "Most images don't have the title of the work in them — which is a problem, since people will likely want to know what work an image is from. Fortunately, we have ways of getting around this — the most common method is to simply wrap the image itself in a Pot Hole link, making the image clickable."
I'm just throwing this out there in case someone knows the work, because I fell into the above situation: I happened upon the picture, I'm curious what it's from, but there's no way to tell because it's just a picture and the caption is unhelpful.
For future reference, if the image is anywhere on the net and publicly available, Google Image Search is of moderate usefulness. (I say moderate, because if it can't find a good match, it'll toss anything similar out there.)
Oh hey, I didn't know there was a dedicated thread. Neat. *watchlist add*
Also... Google Image Search? I mean, I considered using Tin Eye, but I don't see how Google Image Search would be of more that rudimentary use. (And thank you for the source as well, CM.)
09:08:41 AM 17th Dec 2014
GIS has an option that allows you to search by images instead of text. Example.
09:24:35 AM 17th Dec 2014
^ Holy shit. I never knew Google had reverse image search capability. That is awesome. How long have I been failing to notice that?
11:12:25 AM 17th Dec 2014
0:) Do you really want me to answer that? :p
(I will, anyway. I've been using it to find out where people likely obtained unsourced images they post on FB at least since March. I just love it.)
11:45:07 AM 17th Dec 2014
Daaaaamn. I'll probably never use Tin Eye again. I love Google. <3
11:34:08 AM 17th Dec 2014
About a page on Playing With Wiki. Knight in Sour Armor Deconstruction and Reconstruction both seem a little random to me. Are they ok? Should they be changed? If this is a correct example of those tropes, then please someone explain me why.
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11:34:08 AM 17th Dec 2014
They don't seem very well worded, but they make sense (the deconstruction's the idea that a KISA slowly gets less cynical from doing good deeds, the reconstruction could probably be better, but it's a logical reason why a KISA would stay "sour" even when they'd got sweeter).
It might be worth asking in the PWW thread.
08:50:25 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by SatoshiBakura
Can't anybody decide on picture captions for the Five Nights at Freddy's character page? I see them being changed around all the time.
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12:02:35 AM 17th Dec 2014
This is a "fresh popular new game". These get lots of editors and usually plenty of minor issues.
08:50:25 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
Some kind of consensus on the caption, and a note discouraging it from being changed, would help, wouldn't it?
EDIT: Oh wait, the character page. Hm.
08:41:24 AM 17th Dec 2014
I'm currently making a trope page for a fic that has a lot of examples for the Adult Fear trope that it takes a huge section here.
Should I move all those examples to a separated page and then link it back to all of the related pages (include the main index page of Adult Fear)?
see/hide 5 replies
04:05:02 AM 17th Dec 2014
Crucible? That entry needs some thorough cleaning - far too much natter and some entries are context free or don't look like the trope.
04:16:07 AM 17th Dec 2014
You meant the main Fanfic page or the Adult Fear page?
Yeah, I do agree that it needs a lot of cleaning so maybe I won't make a new page and just clean up it first then.
08:41:24 AM 17th Dec 2014
And Mei-May, just a side note, it's much easier to type links within the wiki as PageName (if it's in the main namespace) or NameSpace/PageName (if it's not). It will also remove that little arrow after the link. Not that it hurts anything in ATT or LNF, just a tip in case you didn't know.
MsCC93 Medium: Western Animation
08:09:34 AM 17th Dec 2014
Azul120 keeps on changing examples of Laser Guided Karma around when it comes to the Family Guy episode "And I'm Joyce Kinney" in a few pages that have the examples. I don't want to start another Edit War simply because we are disagreeing on things.
I have to ask about this trope; why does almost every example look like a ZCE?
10:00:00 AM 16th Dec 2014
His edit reason on the FMB part is nonsensical. At the bottom of Five-Man Band, in bold text, it explicitly says "The Five-Man Band only occurs when the team as a whole fits, not just a few characters." That implies that there must be five members, and they must fit the five archetypes listed on the page. A Five-Man Band is not simply a five-character group that fits five unique Characterization Tropes or what-have-you, or a six- or seven-character group that fits those five archetypes and then some.
So yes, the FMB restore is erroneous.
The spoiler font is a little greyer, because the rule is specifically about when the whole example including the trope name is spoilered, but spoilering out an entire example except for the trope name is also strongly discouraged and, in my opinion, should be either de-spoilered, rewritten without spoilers, or simply nuked.
So on balance, I'd say that edit is erroneous as well.
06:57:39 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by Nohbody
Also, for future reference and general information to those not already aware of it, 5MB has a dedicated cleanup thread in which to ask about questionable entries and various other trope issues (including having a lot of ZCEs).
01:17:44 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by harryhenry
When it comes to THAT hashtag, is it a 100% banned topic to be brought up in a work page, or is it at least OK to mention it in some situations? If it's the latter, what are those situations? For context, I'm trying to find examples for an under-construction work page, and the possible example (partially) mentions the hashtag.
see/hide 13 replies
07:03:15 PM 15th Dec 2014
It's been ruled that it's strictly In-Universe only, like if the Simpsons were to mention it in an episode. Any other use at all is verboten.
07:36:27 PM 15th Dec 2014
...Now I can't stop thinking about the hilarious trainwreck that'd ensue if the Simpsons were to actually do that episode :P.
05:00:09 AM 16th Dec 2014
I may not be a fan of the show, but I'm still prepared to believe they'd do it.
05:18:42 AM 16th Dec 2014
I'm thinking Family Guy would be more likely to go there.
05:46:58 AM 16th Dec 2014
05:51:41 AM 16th Dec 2014
The one about the controversy in the gaming world
06:20:33 AM 16th Dec 2014
Candi is correct. We are not interested in any Internet controversies, trending hashtags, popular memes, scandals, etc. Leave that stuff to the blogging and news sites. Here, we only care about the tropes. If a show or webcomic references one of these things In-Universe, then it can be listed under the appropriate trope example.
06:34:27 AM 16th Dec 2014
...Popular memes? I get how the other 3 could be looked at as Flame Bait but what's wrong with that last one?
07:17:12 AM 16th Dec 2014 edited by DracMonster
Well, an occasional reference to a meme is alright when it doesn't obstruct clarity. The problem is, they tend to get massively overused due to Fan Myopia, often making a page unreadable to someone who is new to the work.
In theory, work pages are supposed to help people find new works they'd be interested in. Meme overuse is detrimental to that.
07:49:41 AM 16th Dec 2014
^^^ And can I say I'm very happy about that? Seriously, my favorite toy review site (as in Transformers and the like) has been posting weekly photocomics on the matter and injecting random commentary into their reviews. It's... irritating.
08:17:15 AM 16th Dec 2014
^^^ It's because memes are not a work of fiction. Unless they pop up in fiction, they're not relevant. And I'd guess there's a secondary reason that memes tend to be popular for a short period of time, and get out of hand while they're popular, which is already bad, but then they fall out of common use and just become stupid relics of a joke that was only funny because of zeitgeist.
The rest, of course, are because they're not fiction and they're Flame Bait.
05:51:58 PM 16th Dec 2014
They also can get overused to the point that they are just not funny, and tend to grate. Cryptic Mirror made a damn funny one about the Hulk a while back, but a few people didn't seem to get that kind of joke is funniest when only used occasionally, and beat it into the ground every bloody time the reason for the initial joke came up. It got to the point where making the reference was severely discouraged. Aargh.
01:17:44 AM 17th Dec 2014
It was so overused even I got sick of it, and I'm really narcissistic and love it when when people quote me (and you can quote me on that!).
12:00:55 AM 17th Dec 2014 edited by Micah
Is there a procedure for dealing with reviews that are attached to the wrong work page? For example, here's a review of the film Jumper, attached to the page for the book series Jumper.
see/hide 2 replies
05:25:17 PM 16th Dec 2014
If you go to the Literature.Jumper page, you can use the moderator assistance request box in the tools sidebar to ask for the review to be transferred to the correct page.
12:00:55 AM 17th Dec 2014
Did so, but the "correct subject" button that moves reviews shows up and works for non-moderators as well.
12:01:03 PM 16th Dec 2014 edited by Darksilverhawk
Speaking of YMMV potholes, what about YMMV tropes on the less opinionated and less natter-prone side of things, such as Fan Nickname? Are those allowed to be potholed in where appropriate? I know on a page I watch, for a while there was an example that opened with something like:
That is a situation where, for clarity's sake, it would be helpful to note the nickname due to the character never being explicitly named in-series (only in the supplementary materials), so many more causal readers only knew them by their nickname. However, the whole bullet still gets flagged as YMMV so I eventually removed it.
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01:19:11 AM 16th Dec 2014
So note it without making "fan nickname" a link?
01:23:08 AM 16th Dec 2014
Fan opinion can always be omitted in the non-YMMV pages.
01:50:24 AM 16th Dec 2014 edited by RoseAndHeather
But it's not an opinion. It's a widespread viewers' name for a character that isn't named in canon.
I've always thought that should be a trivia trope, anyway.
02:00:03 AM 16th Dec 2014
Technically, that falls under the same rule insofar as it isn't part of the work. Fan Nickname is classed as Trivia but I have seen arguments over its classification.
06:08:00 AM 16th Dec 2014
If a character is better known by their fan nickname (or even *only* known by the nickname, since the canon doesn't mention their name at all), I don't think we should be disallowed to mention the name on the main page. This is in the interest of clarity, if nothing else.
However, there's no really any reason to pothole the mere mention of the nickname to Fan Nickname, or even to use a Wiki Word that links to it. So rodneyAnonymous's suggestion seems reasonable. Instead of
Then you could have a proper Fan Nickname entry on the Trivia page.
06:21:37 AM 16th Dec 2014
In that context, Fan Nickname is irrelevant to the trope example, so should be left off — are you seriously going to Pot Hole the trope every time Bob's name is mentioned in the article?
06:54:51 AM 16th Dec 2014
I'm not sure if Fighteer is replying to me or to the original poster, but just to make it clear, I think we're in agreement. Anyway, in case I was unclear, the point I was trying to make was that the fact that "Tom" is a Fan Nickname is irrelevant and shouldn't be potholed, but in this hypothetical case I think it's justified to mention that the Bob is better known as Tom, if people might not recognize the character otherwise.
08:20:07 AM 16th Dec 2014
Can you provide an example of a character who is literally never referred to as anythingIn-Universe? I find it hard to believe that there's a character that never gets any kind of epithet, moniker, title, placeholder name, etc. Even if it's just He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named or "The Alien" or what-have-you.
10:24:56 AM 16th Dec 2014 edited by Darksilverhawk
The work I'm thinking of (Moonstuck, due to format, never refers to any character besides the main character by name- the most we get is a description ("You follow the imposter" "The jam-loving fiend has come this way!"). It's not that she's never referred to by anything at all, but it's not consistent for this character, and fans pretty consistently use the nickname, many because they still aren't aware of the official name.
Edit: That said, I'll leave off the pothole.
10:52:53 AM 16th Dec 2014 edited by Fighteer
There are several characters in The Order of the Stick who are unnamed within the comic but have earned fan nicknames due to being seen repeatedly, or sometimes just doing something interesting. An appropriate place to note these is in No Name Given, or sometimes Nominal Importance depending on whether the story calls out the phenomenon.
11:09:25 AM 16th Dec 2014
^^ That's interesting. Now I'm also curious. So the question is:
If a character or characters not only have No Name Given, but aren't even consistently referred to In-Universe using the same epithets, how should they be referred to on the work page? Not how should they be troped, but for example, if Badass applies to them, how should the example be written?
So Fighteer, would you say that the Fan Nickname should be noted under No Name Given (or the appropriate trope) and then used through the rest of the page? That seems a little bit of a slippery slope, but I haven't encountered the phenomenon myself.
11:16:08 AM 16th Dec 2014
It is a slippery slope, but otherwise you're stuck referring to "that guy with a halberd from page 305". My feeling is that it shouldn't come up too often, since nameless characters rarely generate a lot of trope examples.
Found a creator page for one Mr. Dale Earnhardt. I see no reason to have this page; yes, he was a notable racer (I still remember the commemorative plates that came out after his death...), but if we have a page on him, then why not have pages on every other random athlete who's never actually created a work or played a character?
Looks to me like it was created as an excuse to trope him. But as has been mentioned, he's not a creator, so he shouldn't have a Creator/ page; and if he's a Useful Notes page, then he shouldn't be troped.
09:29:25 AM 16th Dec 2014
The entire example section seems to consist of tropes applied to his personal life, which is against site policy. The introductory text doesn't seem long enough to warrant a Useful Notes page of itself. Perhaps there should be a Useful Notes page for famous race drivers where he could have an entry?
10:02:10 AM 16th Dec 2014
^ Even then, if it's not relevant to fiction, it doesn't belong on the site. I could be mistaken, but I'm not sure I've seen more than one fictional reference to Earnhardt in my life. And I don't think I've even seen one.
11:17:03 AM 16th Dec 2014 edited by Fighteer
It would go under UsefulNotes.Nascar, which I imagine we already have. And that Creator page should be cut.
Edit: Odd, we have Main.Nascar, which is a work article without a namespace. To the cleanup thread!!
10:18:10 AM 16th Dec 2014 edited by RoseAndHeather
Why doesn't bold or italics markup work in spoiler font anymore?
ETA: Italics worked in the first spoilered sentence but not the second, despite my using the exact same markup for both. WTF? ::headscratch::
I see a handful of instances of italic font in spoiler tags on that page (Literature) and they are all working fine. What quote/quotes in particular are you looking at?
09:29:49 AM 16th Dec 2014
Italics doesn't work in a pothole, if that's what you were trying.
10:01:07 AM 16th Dec 2014
^ I would have pointed this out, except I don't see any visible broken markup on the page, which would appear if you were trying to do font markup inside a Pot Hole.
10:01:37 AM 16th Dec 2014
^^ The very bottom one, the Honor Harrington example. See where the word Republic has quotes around it? That's supposed to be italics.
^ Nope, no pothole involved. Just spoiler font. (I mean, yes, there's a pothole in there, but it's not what I was trying to italicize.)
10:03:07 AM 16th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
EDIT: Nevermind, I read your response to my comment and fired off the question. Taking a look now.
EDIT: Ah, yep, you have italics markup inside a very long Pot Hole. I changed it to what I think you meant to do. The Boom, HeadshotPot Hole enclosed the entire spoilered section after "a pulsar dart to [someone's] head". I shortened the Pot Hole to just that phrase, which pulled the italics markup to a non-Pot Hole section. It appears correctly now.
10:16:30 AM 16th Dec 2014
Bless you. I was completely confused and never caught that I hadn't closed the pothole brackets. Thank you!!!
10:18:10 AM 16th Dec 2014
No prob. :D
08:27:27 AM 16th Dec 2014
Truro deleted an example from Even Better Sequel with the following reason:
Skyward Sword had the most annyoing assist charcter in the history of the franchise (Fi), a cliche childhood friend loave story, the items were less imaginative and fun than in pervious installments, you re-visit the same three areas over and over again, there's hardly anything to explore and more focus on story than actual gameplay. A game this heavily flawed is not an Even Better Sequel.
This seems like deleting an example simply because he didn't agree with it. Any thoughts?
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03:52:24 PM 15th Dec 2014
As long as it's a relatively widespread opinion that it's better than whatever came before it, it should stay.
04:21:35 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
Even if it's not a relatively widespread opinion, I'm pretty sure YMMV items are not to be removed unless they are misuse of a trope or contain factual inaccuracies. And in every case I've seen so far, anything to do with the simple concept of how much anybody actually liked the work is not within the purview of "facts", because it's unquantifiable. As long as it's correct use of the trope, and the context is adequate and factually correct on the particulars, the example stays.
04:22:38 PM 15th Dec 2014
OK thanks. But I've never played the game in question, I'm only somewhat familiar with it, and I'm unsure how to revert changes.
04:24:59 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
Mods can do an actual revert, but if it was just a single edit that needs reverting, you should be able to go into the history, copy the old paragraph, and paste it.
Do note, however, that you should consider this a one-time thing. If it gets removed again for the same (or no) reasons, or by the same editor, don't re-add it, don't engage, that's an Edit War and will only end badly for all parties involved. Just start a PM discussion with the editor in question, or take it to the page's Discussion board, or come here to report it.
04:47:57 PM 15th Dec 2014
OK, I never intended to readd it. I just wanted to bring it up.
05:24:10 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by supergod
"Even if it's not a relatively widespread opinion, I'm pretty sure YMMV items are not to be removed unless they are misuse of a trope or contain factual inaccuracies." - I always figured that was more for things like Funny Moments or Squick. YMMV is meant to for subjective examples, but I think there have to be some limits to it or else there's nothing stopping someone from including, say, Star Trek V as an Even Better Sequel, or Wrath of Khan as an example of sequelitis, which would make the examples kinda useless.
That's not to say that all, or even most fans have to agree, but it should at least be a common enough opinion. For example, there are people who prefer the first Godfather, but there are also a lot of people who think the sequel is better, so it makes sense to list it as such even if people disagree.
06:03:09 PM 15th Dec 2014
YMMV items are only supposed to be removed if they're misused or based on factual inaccuracies, but the reasons that editor gave are mostly subjective. I'd suggest messaging him about it.
06:40:02 PM 15th Dec 2014
The fact that he listed "it has a story" as a flaw is enough for me to call him wrong.
06:58:30 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by Candi
It's been cited multiple times, by moderators and the former admin Fast Eddie, that you do not remove YMMV entries because you don't agree with them. People have landed in the edit banned/suspended thread in the past for removing YMMV because they didn't agree.
YMMV can only be removed for trope misuse or factual error. Which is why you'll have conflicting YMMV tropes on the same page. (ZCEs can be removed or commented out, but that's a different rule.)
Definitely PM the guy. The mods monitor ATT, so they'll be aware of the situation when RL is dealt with.
11:57:02 PM 15th Dec 2014
Reverted and messaged. His own opinion need backing before it constitutes a deletion reason.
08:27:27 AM 16th Dec 2014
^^ and ^^^^ have it right. I don't mean to say that tropers should go out of their way to construct elaborate arguments for nonsensical tropes just to exploit the "misuse and factual error only" rule (which would be a great way to get the rule changed to prevent that kind of abuse), but honestly, if you're capable of constructing sufficient contextual support for it without outright citing bogus facts or misusing the trope, that probably means there's some basis in truth.
06:21:54 AM 16th Dec 2014
I was pondering about the no potholes rules for page quotes; I understand why it should be done for tropes, as too often the pothole is used to shoehorn a barely adequate quote. However, would the rule apply to work or recap pages too?
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06:21:54 AM 16th Dec 2014
Yes, that's the rule.
10:16:32 PM 15th Dec 2014
The quote under the image on The Newsroom has nothing to do with The Newsroom. Is this acceptable?
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04:17:34 AM 15th Dec 2014
The caption? These don't have to be from the work(s) in question but they need to have some relevance to the image, which seems to be the case here.
04:28:55 AM 15th Dec 2014
07:42:42 PM 15th Dec 2014
Does it? It looks just like random humor from here. It'd be pretty annoying if every caption went that route.
08:37:56 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by RoseAndHeather
It's apparently a reference to Jeff Daniels' involvement in the Dumb and Dumber film series.
That said, I don't like it either. If it were something like a fragment of lyrics from "I, Don Quixote" — given the Running Gag in the show — that would be fine, but it's honestly not all that funny to anyone who doesn't know Daniels was in those film.
10:16:32 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by rodneyAnonymous
Caption ("I wonder what Jim Carreyis doing now...") removed. Potholes are to add information to what is in the text, not to add information that isn't in the text.
Anyway, it is a reference to the actor in the image, another actor, and a different work (that they're both in). And it's not funny. Ugh.
04:46:23 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by Exxolon
Reception on work pages - someone removed something I wrote on Wicked giving some context on just how popular it is with the edit summary "receptions are not appropriate for work pages.". Someone else put it back and they removed it again. Is this an official policy?
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04:43:17 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by PPPSSC
Yes. It's one of the editing tips:
12: "We are not interested in whether or not something is or was popular. Whether or not it was liked has nothing to do with tropes."
04:46:23 PM 15th Dec 2014
Gotcha. Wasn't sure if it was just someone being pedantic or not. Thanks.
04:14:04 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by supergod
I understand that YMMV tropes aren't allowed to be listed as tropes on main pages, unless invoked, does that mean that they can't be linked to on main pages at all? I read the
Let's say I write an examples like these:
Would those be allowed, even if "Film X" and "Game X" actually existed?
I read the "What Goes Where on the Wiki", which says that they shouldn't be potholed on the main pages, but I'm not clear if that applies only when it's potholed as a trope title or when its potholed anywhere in the examples section. Mainly asking because I see plenty of links to YMMV pages on main pages shoehorned into examples, especially ones dealing with Caustic Critics.
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03:25:38 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by Fighteer
Do not pothole those types of tropes unless it's explicitly the reviewer's opinion, not that of the person writing the example.
A review is a work and, as such, subjective tropes that are expressed within it are considered In-Universe. In other words, it is a fact that Zero Punctuation thinks that a game has a Disappointing Last Level.
03:47:26 PM 15th Dec 2014
So the way those examples are written are fine then? I mean, would I have to rewrite the first example as "Mr. Internet Critic has this reaction after seeing what he thought was a narmtastic scene in Film X", or is the implication enough?
04:09:27 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by DracMonster
^It's better to clarify that it's the reviewer's opinion, rather than stating a YMMV trope as empirical fact. Otherwise someone will come along and add a "No it wasn't, you jerk!" Justifying Edit.
04:14:04 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
Besides which, many YMMV tropes, including both of the ones in your examples, are inherently complainy. As mentioned above, unless it's explicitly the reviewer's opinion, using a phrase like "a narmtastic scene in X" or "X's Disappointing Last Level" just sounds like a troper stuffing a gratuitous bashing into an entry that is supposed to be about Laughing Mad or Angrish.
To avoid giving that impression, if it is the reviewer's explicit opinion, you should rephrase it to make that clear.
Actually, off-topic, but I'd also rephrase so that you're not writing examples that are essentially "Trope Name: Alice has one of these during blah blah blah." Describe the actual example, don't just say "this happens," "X has an example of this," et cetera.
02:16:56 PM 15th Dec 2014
Fans of Parks and Recreation seem dead set on Marshall Langman being a closet homosexual-but the thing is from what I've read the only prove is that he's really effeminate that and he meant be based off Marcus Bachmann who is rumored to be homosexual but still it's just a rumor so I don't think there is anything canon in it, and it's rather offensive to claim someone is "obviously" gay cuz he's effeminate.
But I come to you with this-is there any case of world of gay? I did in fact edit some examples to say it's just a theory, but not all of them as I don't know for sure if its' canon.
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12:55:02 PM 11th Dec 2014
He's pretty classic Armored Closet Gay. Not to mention there are numerous offhand comments about how he doesn't want to have sex with his wife, but still has "urges that you need to push deep deep down."
01:00:15 PM 11th Dec 2014 edited by tvglax
I must have overheard them, but it's still not quite canon but very strongly hinting, sorry but when it comes to canon I don't think it as canon unless it was outright conformed or super hinting?(Like with Sheldon Cooper being Asexual I view as being "basically canon')
01:42:23 PM 11th Dec 2014
Sorry, but "strongly hinted at to the point of being obvious" and "actually canon" are distinct properties. Just because the fanbase is convinced that a character has a certain sexuality does not make it so. There is always room for the writers to pull a fast one on the audience.
Armored Closet Gay as a trope requires that the character be revealed as gay. Asexuality as a trope requires that the character reveal their complete lack of sexual interest. Word of God may be substituted for these in a pinch.
01:43:59 PM 11th Dec 2014
It sounds like it might be Ambiguously Gay, which can be applied based on hints like the ones you described. I don't think any other "Gay" trope is appropriate without confirmation. I'm not familiar with the work, though.
05:20:54 PM 12th Dec 2014
So, it's agreed we should edit the examples?
06:02:33 PM 13th Dec 2014
It is very, very obvious in the show that the character of Marshall Langman is a closeted homosexual. But it's never been confirmed that he's a homosexual. So I guess Ambiguously Gay is the trope.
08:22:39 AM 15th Dec 2014
^ Sounds about right, not having seen the show myself.
01:54:38 PM 15th Dec 2014 edited by PistolsAtDawn
Are we not allowed to trope things which are implied? Because I see that all the time, someone will list "Trope: Heavily implied when blah blah blah." Are those examples not allowed? If that is ok then shouldnt this just be listed as "Armored Closet Gay: Marshall is implied to be blah blah blah"
I would be suprised if we can't list implied examples, because that would mean cutting a lot of clearly intentional examples just because the show couldn't/wouldn't state it outright.
01:58:19 PM 15th Dec 2014
That's actually what I meant Pistols At Dawn, instead of saying "Marshal is gay." we should edit it to say "Marshal is heavily hinted to be gay."
The Diablo entry on Schrödinger's Player Character is five paragraphs long, all on the main bullet level. I don't know the first thing about the game (though the example seems to cover three games, so that's probably part of the problem right there).
Could someone familiar with Diablo take a peek at that?
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09:58:59 AM 15th Dec 2014 edited by DracMonster
Jebus! I'll pare it down in a bit if someone else doesn't.
Found a troper whose understanding of context and trope use seems to be a bit murky at best. He's got a pattern of deleting examples en masse for the wrong reasons, deleting relevant context, and adding irrelevant context. What to do?
Beyond the ones you mentioned, Gut Punch brought them to my attention. When I sent them a PM about the ZCE, they responded with "If I describe the Gut Punch, it loses its effect." Beyond their deletions on Hero Killer, they also added some instances of Chigurgh's behavior that have absolutely nothing to do with any definition of that trope as I understand it. There's also an entry on Anime and Manga that's clearly only going by the name of the trope and not what it actually means, readding a pothole in the page quote on Noodle Incident after being told not to on more than one occasion, and quite a few misplays on Drag Me to Hell. Which is basically every item in their edit history that I've clicked on so far.
09:03:12 AM 15th Dec 2014 edited by KyleJacobs
I'm also picking up on a need to defend Evangelion from anything that could be taken as criticism, as well as a disproportionate number of Square Peg Round Tope potholes that also look like they're only looking at the trope's name.
ryanasaurus0077 Medium: Anime
08:45:02 AM 15th Dec 2014
Are glasses and hats synonymous with each other, or is OreskyNot an Example of The Glasses Come Off? I've removed it from the character sheet until further notice and will readd it if it is indeed an example. If Tropes Are Flexible doesn't apply here, then I don't know what else could possibly justify someone who doesn't wear glasses being an example of that trope. IfTropes Are Flexible doesn't apply here.
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02:08:07 AM 14th Dec 2014
Hats are the same thing as glasses? Yeah, no. Keep that entry gone. It's a ZCE anyhow.
02:38:33 AM 14th Dec 2014 edited by ryanasaurus0077
So basically, assuming I interpreted that correctly, even if Oresky's example wasn't a ZCE, Tropes Are Flexible can only go so far, and in this case it doesn't go far enough for him to be an example, right?
08:20:00 AM 15th Dec 2014
^ Yeah. Tropes Are Flexible, but Not That Flexible. Hats!=Glasses by any stretch of imagination. The most flexible I think it could be would be to define "glasses" in the context of the trope as an accessory that clearly marks the character as a nerd, or an intellectual, or otherwise not a physical combat type. Like, I don't know, a pocket protector or a retainer. And even then you'd be really stretching it.
08:45:02 AM 15th Dec 2014
That is one major problem with appearance tropes; they confuse the appearance with the characterization that it is intended to invoke. Pocket protectors, thick glasses, and such are an example of stereotypical nerd accessories. That's the trope, not "thick glasses".
The Glasses Come Off is not about the item of apparel; it's about a transition of the character from introverted to extroverted, meek to badass, dorky to sexy — symbolized by the removal of a stereotypical 'nerd' accessory. I can't imagine anything about a hat that evokes similar imagery.
08:29:43 AM 15th Dec 2014
If there's only one example of a trope for a particular work on that work's page, can the example be formatted like this?
Because a few tropers have been running around changing all examples, even those with only one example per trope, to this:
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01:22:55 PM 12th Dec 2014 edited by DracMonster
What? Can you link to a page or two with this? That's just extra scrolling for no reason except someone's OCD.
01:32:06 PM 12th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
There's no need for sub-bullets except in cases where there are multiple examples. Your top format is correct when there's a single example. The latter violates Example Indentation unless there are multiple examples of the trope within the same work.
01:49:26 PM 12th Dec 2014
Honestly, I didn't keep track of which pages it was happening on, but if I see it again, I'll definitely make a note. I just wanted to make sure.
02:06:32 PM 12th Dec 2014
That change is inappropriate, yes. Unless there are multiple examples, as was noted.
04:20:40 PM 12th Dec 2014 edited by Candi
And related, I asked some time ago about entries that have more than one example, but all but one are ZCE and commented out. The answer I got was that the normal one example listing, your first one, applies until the other examples are filled out.
08:29:43 AM 15th Dec 2014
^ That is less obvious, but for the sake of consistent formatting, I'd say you have the right idea. I haven't personally been too consistent with that in the past, mostly because I tend to comment-out ZCEs rapid-fire and I don't always notice when I leave only one sub-example, so there's a title and a sub-bullet, but the correct way to do it is to change it to the normal one-example indentation.
08:25:01 AM 15th Dec 2014
A question about the recently launched Torture Is Ineffective, is it really appropriate for a page on torture to have Real Life examples? Even a page stating that it is mostly useless?
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04:18:09 PM 12th Dec 2014
That sounds like a case for the Real Life Examples maintenance thread.
04:32:49 PM 12th Dec 2014
I would say no on first principles, given that it's a controversial topic.
05:20:51 PM 12th Dec 2014
Personally, I believe that the page is missing the Spanish Inquisition if Real Life examples are allowed
06:02:00 PM 12th Dec 2014
But nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!
...I'll go now.
07:22:20 PM 12th Dec 2014
I am surprised this launched, given the objections and long-term inactivity.
05:49:32 AM 13th Dec 2014
I concur... this sounds merely as an aversion to Torture Always Works, that not sounds as a tropeworthy concept.
This guy keeps PMing me to whine about removing his additions to pages, anything I can do or just ignore him?
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01:28:38 PM 14th Dec 2014
Can you tell us who's P Ming you? Unless you do that, not a lot of us will know what you're talking about.
01:38:14 PM 14th Dec 2014
Griever222. The edits in question concern two pages.
On My Little Pony Equestria Girls: Rainbow Rocks (it was two weeks ago, but he's now complaining again), he noted that Sunset and Adagio have Foe Yay. They don't — they share exactly two scenes together, which I can probably find on YT and link for anyone who hasn't seen the film, and there is really nothing that can be taken as sexual subtext between them.
The second page is Final Fantasy XII, he made edits claiming that of the Espers, Shemhazai is based on Ultimecia, Zalera is based on Kefka and Sephiroth, and Zodiark is based on Sin. Aside from the fact this edit was very poorly written, the thing with FF 12's Espers is they come in two categories, either they are based on a previous main series Final Fantasy villain, or are based on a Lucavi from Final Fantasy Tactics. The villain references are quite blatant because the Espers are named after the villain of inspiration: Chaos, Mateus, Famfrit the Darkening Cloud, Zeromus, Exodus (which is simply an alternate translation of Exdeath). Zalera, Shemhazai, and Zodiark, meanwhile, are based on Lucavi, again being directly named after them. In both groups, the Espers also sometimes look like their original counterparts, and/or have backstories paralleling their counterparts. There is no ambiguity here — we know where the Espers take their inspiration from, and it's not where he's trying to claim.
At this point in his PMs he isn't even arguing his points, just complaining that I'm forcing my opinion on people and I'm editing in bad practice because he has the right to his opinion and blah blah blah.
01:48:25 PM 14th Dec 2014
Took a gander at their PMs and edit history. The expy entry on Characters.Final Fantasy XII is awful and reinforces my dislike of "reference" tropes and they have ZCE (the contested Foe Yay entry) and spelling issues. Messaged them over grammar, but someone else will have to do any grammar cleaning.
I don't find anything ban-worthy in the PMs but I think you ought to block them.
01:52:03 PM 14th Dec 2014
Alright, I'll do so. Thank you for intervening.
02:04:41 PM 14th Dec 2014
Well, this is a nice discusion, only that Drake Clawfang is kind-off lying. I gave a lot of arguments, especialy with the espers. I can list them here, and we can discuss them. And yeah, I'm not a native english speaker, but you could at least send what exacly grammar and spelling mistakes I did, instead of just confuse me with indirect messages.
But good you at least are informing me of this discussion, if a bit late.
02:11:15 PM 14th Dec 2014 edited by DrakeClawfang
Dude, the moderator looked at the PMs, he knows what arguments you made. And yes, by the time I sent the message, you had devolved from arguing the point to complaining I didn't agree with you.
02:12:37 PM 14th Dec 2014 edited by DracMonster
Griver222, you've made numerous grammar errors in that post. If it is necessary to clean up all your edits, the mods will ban you, native English speaker or not. You may want to post your edits in this thread so others can help you bring them up to scratch before you post them. I'm honestly trying to give helpful advice so you can avoid getting suspended.
As for your interpretations on the Espers, I have to agree with him that they're hogwash, and I seriously doubt you're going to get anyone backing you in a discussion, but if you want to try arguing the case, it should be done here rather than in this thread.
02:20:54 PM 14th Dec 2014 edited by Griever222
Yeah, but Drake Clawfang, you must admit you kind-off lied, with the fact I didn't even argue my points, just complained that your forcing your opinion on people. Esecialy with espers, I did send new arguments.
DracMonster, it's rather mean to call what I wrote "hogwash", especialy that did point out to some stuff, especialy that with Elmdore, that has some sense.
I must admit that my Les Yay trope edit about Rainbow Rocks was particualy bad with grammar and spelling, and the Foe Yay with Dazzlings and Sunset was a ZCE, but I explained it to Drake Clawfang, that I was then in somewhat a hurry.
02:28:08 PM 14th Dec 2014
I don't have to admit to doing things I didn't do. You were complaining, I said so. If you're still going to complain here as well as in PM, then just stop now.
If you're editing in a hurry, then stop editing and go do whatever you're in a rush to do. TV Tropes will wait.
02:38:12 PM 14th Dec 2014 edited by DracMonster
^Back off, don't engage. Mods can read the P Ms and this thread. Fighteer should be along shortly to handle this in his inimitable style.
02:48:26 PM 14th Dec 2014 edited by Griever222
Drake Clawfang, I admited that I wrote those spelling and gramatical errors, and I would correct them, if you didn't. And it doesn't change the fact you basicaly lied, at least partialy.
DracMonster, if I'm really blocked for this, it would really confim, at least to me, what some people write about tvtropes starting to become a worse place to be, and web pages like All The Tropes, being created. Especialy that I didn't insult you in any way.
To specify the stuff wrote about banning, I meant for this discussion, and the messages I exchanged with Drake Clawfang. About the spelling and grammar stuff, I'm not sure, but I usually clean it up myself, if I wrote it with spelling errors, or something.
03:23:54 PM 14th Dec 2014 edited by SeptimusHeap
STOP, you two. I've haven't banned anyone, just recommended Drake Clawfang to not respond to your messages because that discussion wasn't going anywhere. I do not know the works in question but there is no reason to become this aggressive over them.
03:35:07 PM 14th Dec 2014
OK, and didn't mean you banned me Septimus Heap, only just replied to the stuff DracMonster wrote. But yeah, I'm ending my contribution in this discussion, like you advise.
06:49:05 PM 14th Dec 2014
Regretting your promotion to mod yet, Septimus? :P
03:53:44 AM 15th Dec 2014
Not yet. I haven't participated in the truly irritating cases yet.
04:46:22 AM 15th Dec 2014
>Implying that cleaning up after him doesn't get irritating the hundredth time
05:18:34 AM 15th Dec 2014
I was dealing with him long before becoming a moderator. Including reverting him over a phone until my hands hurted.
05:27:44 AM 15th Dec 2014
11:18:04 PM 14th Dec 2014 edited by wrm5
X Meets Y is a Just for Fun page, but is it okay to list it on a works page, particularly if it's actually invoked?
EDIT: To explain... there doesn't seem to be any note on the Just for Fun page, or the X Meets Y page specifically saying that they can't be listed, and I've seen LOTS of other works pages listing it, but My Timing Is Off recently axed an example of it from Hyrule Warriors with the reason that JFF pages are not tropes and shouldn't be listed. I want to make sure he's actually wrong before I put it back.
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01:36:17 AM 13th Dec 2014
It's not a trope, yeah. The trope there is Cross Over or something related.
02:26:12 AM 13th Dec 2014 edited by rodneyAnonymous
He's not wrong, the "other works pages" are.
06:40:33 AM 13th Dec 2014
In that case, would it be appropriate to put a note, possibly on the main Just for Fun page, warning people that JFF pages are not real tropes and should not be listed?
01:44:55 PM 13th Dec 2014
I could see it as being appropriate for Trivia if one of the people actually associated with the show (writer, producer, actor, etc.) has actually gone on the record saying that — for instance, Nathan Fillion once described his series Castle as "Moonlighting meets Murder, She Wrote having forgotten Moonlighting and never having actually seen Murder, She Wrote" — in fact, that quote is the series page's quote. But if it's just fan association, it should stay on JFF.
07:32:35 PM 14th Dec 2014 edited by PaulA
If someone associated with the shows describes it in an X-meets-Y way, that might be an appropriate thing to put on the show's trivia page — but it still shouldn't be linked to the JustForFun.XMeetsY page, because that's not what that page is for. Never link a phrase to another page just because that phrase is the page's title.
11:13:06 PM 14th Dec 2014
Is that mod fiat? Because that doesn't make any sense. If one of the creators is invoking the trope - not the name of the trope, but the actual trope - potholing to the page of the trope that was invoked should be kosher.
11:18:04 PM 14th Dec 2014
It's not a trope. I did mention a trope that could apply. Not sure why you want to link to JustForFun.X Meets Y.
What do you do if it seems like everyone's ignoring your YKTTW drafts, even after you've consecutively bumped it over the course of several weeks/few months or announced it in that thread to advertise them?
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05:32:58 AM 9th Dec 2014 edited by CrypticMirror
I'd say to discard them, people obviously don't think they are tropes otherwise they'd comment and hat them. Do you have links to the drafts in question, and I'll have a look?
09:13:23 AM 9th Dec 2014 edited by GnomeTitan
(Please ignore this reply - irrelevant)
09:13:26 AM 9th Dec 2014
I doubt people are "ignoring" them. If they're not commenting or putting hats or tags on them, then as CrypticMirror says, people probably don't think they're tropes, or at least they don't have anything they feel is valid input. I have passed over many YKTTWs simply because I wasn't familiar enough with the idea, or it looked like all the valid points had been made by others, or indeed because it didn't look like a trope to me but it was too borderline to justify putting a "Tropeworthy?" tag on it without more information.
But I will take a closer look at both of these and see if there's anything I can help with.
09:17:35 AM 9th Dec 2014
Most fora (like YKTTW) have only so many people contributing and these have only so much attention to split between various proposals..
09:18:50 AM 9th Dec 2014
Added a hat to the eighth-notes YKTTW, but the subtitle one doesn't blow my skirt up. I added a comment explaining my opinion about it and will flag it to follow it in case I can do any good in the discussion.
09:22:43 AM 9th Dec 2014
That second one is definitely a one for the discards bin, IMO. The first one, is something that requires some specialist knowledge to explain whether it is a trope or not. There just may not be that many music geeks frequenting the YKTTW to be be able to judge it. Have you tried soliciting opinions from the Music forum, perhaps stating in the forum subject line that it is a YKTTW for sheet music? You may even have to go off-site and try some sheet music forums out there in the rest of the web and direct them here.
09:27:48 AM 9th Dec 2014 edited by Bisected8
It my experience, YKTTW tend to start becoming a bit too much like furniture and skipped over if they're constantly bumped (especially if they're being bumped via dry edits and don't have the "new message" icon). Try:
Try a new name out if one's been suggested (a bad name might be putting people off commenting, and the name change can help break the aforementioned "furniture" effect).
If the trope's description's changed, you could try tweaking the laconic for the same reasons as above.
Ask for specific feedback (e.g. if there's an example you added yourself you want an opinion on, or you want opinions on possible subtropes) - obviously if there's more than one thing they'll need to be addressed later, but people tend to be more interested if there's something they can do beyond an unspoken "what does this need to launch?". Or adding a tag yourself.
If all else fails, let it drop off the page for a day or two before bumping it again (assuming you've been keeping it on the page).
EDIT: Or, as everyone above said, it might just not be a trope....
09:53:46 AM 9th Dec 2014
If multiple people are claiming that it's Not a Trope but you strongly believe it is, your best bet is to go into detail about why it is a trope. And as CrypticMirror said, the eighth-notes trope is a trope that is inherently about a bit of technical knowledge, basic though it may be, and you might be better off hunting down music geeks (or "enthusiasts") who are more familiar with exactly what an "eighth-note" is than your average troper.
If no one is buying your arguments, carefully consider the objections before you refute them. If that doesn't work, try a different tack; there are always multiple arguments to be made.
10:36:43 AM 9th Dec 2014
Wait, how does "Music is Eighth Notes" require musical knowledge to discern if it's a trope or not?
It's a trope about how music's represented in media, and a pretty common one at that. I don't think it requires musical knowledge to discern if it needs to be a trope or not.
10:50:06 AM 9th Dec 2014
You need some musical knowledge to recognize the eighth notes as such, but I think it's common knowledge that they are notes and represent music.
It's a graphical convention such as letting a swarm of hearts around a person's head indicate that he or she is in love. You don't need to be a cardiologist to recognize the latter as a trope...
11:17:54 AM 9th Dec 2014
Your average Joe doesn't know the difference between a clef, a eighth (or quarter, or half, or sixteenth, etc. etc.) note, or a rest, and certainly can't identify them on sight. He might know what a time signature is, but he probably can't identify anything other than 4/4 and 3/4 (and he'll probably misidentify 3/3 as 3/4).
You don't need technical knowledge to recognize that they are some form of musical notation, but you do need some minor degree of it to recognize that there are so many different types of notation that it's odd that media almost exclusively uses eighth notes to represent music.
11:25:06 AM 9th Dec 2014 edited by KarjamP
Just because it requires technical knowledge to know what the specific note is doesn't automatically mean it's not a trope.
If that's not the case, then why does the tropes like Aluminum Christmas Trees, Bilingual Bonus and Shown Their Work exist in the first place? It requires explicit knowledge about stuff like that exist in order to recognize said tropes, something the common person may not know.
11:31:32 AM 9th Dec 2014
What about 'em? You came asking why why no one was replying on your tropes, you got an answer. One of them doesn't look like a trope and the other looks like you need to know music to judge it. You've been given several suggestions on how to bring it to the attention of people that know music, and how to re-frame it so as to not make it look like you need to know music. What you do now is up to you, but I venture arguing here that it doesn't need musical knowledge is going to be fairly futile.
I'd also venture to suggest that getting upset about other, pre-existing, tropes is not going to help your music-YKTTW much and may possibly create a situation where people see your name on a YKTTW and just skip it as being a place where drama might happen. None of us here are looking for a fight, we just called the problems as we saw them.
11:51:14 AM 9th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
And I don't think anyone here has said that the eighth note YKTTW is not a trope. We're suggesting its mildly technical nature as a possible reason for why it's not getting much attention. That's not a vote of no confidence (particularly when you consider that I put a hat on it), nor is it even a negative comment about the trope itself. It's just a fact, along with a suggestion that if you want more input on it, you should seek out people who are specifically interested in music instead of relying on them to come to you in a general-purpose forum.
11:53:14 AM 9th Dec 2014
12:14:54 PM 9th Dec 2014
A trope is not just a pattern. A trope is a recognizable pattern in media. That is, the average person should be able to point to it and say, "Hey, that thing happened again." Eighth notes, while certainly an identifiable pattern, require specialized knowledge to be recognizable. If 99% of viewers will never even notice it, then it's not a trope by our definition.
12:21:23 PM 9th Dec 2014
It depends on how you see it. I think most people recognize the eighth notes as a symbol for music, but it takes some musical knowledge (not much) to distinguish them from other kinds of notes. So is the trope "a cluster of these symbols signify music" or is it "music is symbolized by a random cluster of eighth notes and no other musical signs"?
12:26:50 PM 9th Dec 2014 edited by Fighteer
Wait, are we talking about the musical symbol, or the music itself? If you are talking about the use of the symbol for the eighth note to visually represent music, then that's a How Did We Miss This One? and could well be a trope, although I can see it suffering from Zero-Context Example issues. Imagine this repeated a thousand times in the article:
Work: The music X is playing is represented by eighth notes.
If we are talking about why the eighth note is used instead of other musical symbols, then that's Analysis or Useful Notes, not a trope.
02:00:23 PM 9th Dec 2014 edited by SolipSchism
Ignore, my internet is on the fritz and I didn't mean to double-post.
02:01:18 PM 9th Dec 2014
To my understanding, the trope is about a subset of the general idea of "wingding" type stuff representing different things. Like in the Tales series, especially Tales of Symphonia though I'm sure it's done in others, because the characters have very little variance in facial expressions, emotions will often be represented by a smiley or angry face, or a popping vein (which I think is a trope, though I'm too lazy to look for the link just now), or a sweat drop (another "I think this is a trope"), or an ellipses; and when somebody is pleased by something, an eighth note.
The subtler distinction is the fact that an eighth note is just one of many symbols used in music notation—even ignoring non-note things, like rests (which just symbolize silence or a pause) or clefs (which is more like an informational symbol that tells you how to read the rest of the music), notes alone have many different symbols that can indicate them. Eighth, quarter, half, whole, sixteenth, and more all have distinct symbols that represent them. Yet, when music notes are used to signify music (or an emotional reaction in some cases), it's always an eighth note. It's used as shorthand for "music", to the exclusion of any other symbol, because it's so iconic and recognizable.
I do see a potential ZCE problem with that, though; it's hard to imagine any more context to such a situation other than something like the example you posted, Fighteer.
02:21:35 PM 9th Dec 2014
Maybe it should be treated as an omnipresent trope, so that only aversions or subversions are notable?
02:21:42 PM 9th Dec 2014
Maybe it should be treated as an omnipresent trope, so that only aversions or subversions are notable?
03:18:16 PM 9th Dec 2014
I don't think it's really omnipresent, though, it's just incredibly common.
Although, doing what you suggest would virtually eliminate ZCEs.
12:26:46 AM 10th Dec 2014
This is the kind of trope where restricting entries to lampshade hangings and discussed or conversed examples might be useful at creating good examples.
01:09:31 AM 10th Dec 2014 edited by GnomeTitan
...and not only because the trope is so common, but also because there really isn't much to say about straight use of it. "This work uses a common visual convention to represent music" is a ZCE, but it's almost impossible to add any meaningful context to it.
Septimus: I assume that you don't mean to exclude mentioning meaningful aversions, such as the Peanuts example.
08:51:24 AM 10th Dec 2014
There are some good examples on the YKTTW, though. Particularly some video game enemy thematically related to music, and the enemy itself is shaped like an eighth note. And the comic strip example where an actual score is shown above the piano player.
10:48:46 AM 10th Dec 2014
"The comic strip example where an actual score is shown above the piano player" is the Peanuts example I was writing about. And that's an aversion, since it's an actual piano score, not just a random collection of quavers (which is what the trope is about).
11:25:53 AM 10th Dec 2014
^ I'm not really arguing with anybody, no need to be defensive. I'm just pointing out that I don't see a problem with the example list currently on the YKTTW. That doesn't mean that, once launched, it might not attract ZCEs, but as I said, I'm not making an argument, I'm just saying the list looks good at present.
12:10:46 PM 10th Dec 2014
^ Oh, I'm not trying to start an argument; I was just pointing out that the Peanuts example is an aversion and not a straight example, to prevent people from misunderstanding the trope as "music is represented by notes", which is not how I understand it to be meant. I understand it as the more specific "music is represented by eighth notes only", which makes less sense (very little real music could be written with just eighth notes) but appears to be the most common case. On the other hand, perhaps the trope really should be more general.
12:34:19 PM 10th Dec 2014
^ Oh, yeah. You are right (unless we end up changing it), it's about eighth notes, making Peanuts an aversion.
I could maybe see making a separate trope for visually representing music using notes, but this is a specific trope in and of itself that is more about Viewers Are Morons and E = MC Hammer than it is about Painting the Medium or whatever you call it when emoticons or hearts or popping veins or sweat drops appear above peoples' heads.
I'm concerned that the trope idea is too narrow to thrive. Again, not because there aren't tons of examples, but because few of those examples have any inherent narrative significance; it only becomes a trope because it's used so much. That said, it definitely belongs as a subtrope of Small Reference Pools.
02:12:17 PM 10th Dec 2014
^ Agreed on all counts.
11:28:48 AM 14th Dec 2014 edited by KarjamP
Went the route of forbidding straight examples.
However, coming to think of it, examples that don't play the trope straight seems a lot more rarer than examples that do play it straight.
That said, I'm thinking of axing all examples altogether. What do you think?
01:01:44 PM 14th Dec 2014
Well, it's exactly the fact that aversions and subversions are rare that make them interesting. So why forbid the interesting examples? Wouldn't that be throwing the baby out with the bath water?
03:26:00 PM 14th Dec 2014
It's not that my intentions are to throw away the interesting examples.
Rather, it's to prevent the fears of this trope being a Zero-Context Example magnet that some have here from happening.
03:30:58 PM 14th Dec 2014
This discussion seems better suited in the YKTTW in question than here, anyway.
11:23:08 AM 14th Dec 2014 edited by harryhenry
MatthewGuy6131994 is doing lots of blank edits to the Nostalgia Critic sub-pages today.
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03:46:28 PM 13th Dec 2014
Well, whoever he is, he certainly isn't that one who we shouldn't discuss. From what I've seen on my watchlist, he's only going at NC's pages. That's just going by my watchlist, anyway. He's actually been doing it for a while now.
03:58:04 PM 13th Dec 2014
Indexing perhaps? I leave a reason when I make indexing null edits.
03:36:02 AM 14th Dec 2014
Or he just doesn't have a clue the "cancel edit" button exists - it took me like two years to find that thing.
08:23:31 AM 14th Dec 2014
The back button also works fine.
08:49:15 AM 14th Dec 2014
Does it really? Does hitting the back button release the edit lock on the page?
10:48:59 AM 14th Dec 2014
No, the back button doesn't release an edit lock.
10:50:25 AM 14th Dec 2014
Huh, i can go back in and edit again fine after it. Does it just refresh the lock for you?
10:51:12 AM 14th Dec 2014
Well, if you checked out the page of course you can edit it.
11:23:08 AM 14th Dec 2014 edited by GnomeTitan
So the point is: do *not* abort an edit by hitting the back button, since that will leave the page locked an nobody else can edit it for up to 20 minutes.
StFan Medium: Anime
10:50:38 AM 14th Dec 2014
For some reason, the Anime index isn't correctly indexing, despite its page type being correctly set. I've tried shaking it a bit and doing null edits, but to no avail. Maybe it's just too big?
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10:50:38 AM 14th Dec 2014
I did try a few things on the index and I can't tell what the issue is. Maybe the size.
09:35:13 AM 14th Dec 2014 edited by Darksilverhawk
DeviantArt. Should it even have tropes? It's not a work. If yes, it really needs a YMMV page made for it since half the examples are YMMV, and after all those tropes are moved it'll have... two remaining valid tropes? Rule34 doesn't really seem to apply here. Which of course drops it below the minimum trope threshold. What should we do?
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12:47:48 AM 14th Dec 2014
It's a collection of tropeable works on one site, so a page is a valid option. That said, that page realllllly needs work.
Rule 34 could potentially apply, because at least one of the mods over two years ago was demonstrating preference bias (details would count as importing drama), and there's been ample discussion about how easy it is to fool the computer programs used to determine if a picture has "too much" nudity. One thing frequently mentioned was apparently it only detected human-color skin tones, but make them not human colored and you could do anything, at least as of two years ago. (That's the last time I bothered to be involved over there.) There's also the posted text stories.
If things have changed, either with the programming or the moderators, Rule 34 may not apply any longer.
01:15:19 AM 14th Dec 2014
Rule 34 is about the existence of something on the internet at large, not a spesific site hosting or not hosting porn, though.
06:13:35 AM 14th Dec 2014
If it's not hosting porn, Rule 34 can't apply. If it's hosting porn deliberately, it definitely applies. If it's hosting porn because of lax policies, there's a grey area.
The way I always read that trope's use was, "If it exists, there's porn of it. Does this site have porn of it?" I may be wrong, though.
08:07:04 AM 14th Dec 2014
DeviantArt does indeed have the option of "displaying mature content", several of which may depict naked people and people having sex.
Outright porn and similar obscenities, however, are still forbidden, according to the terms of service of the site.
08:16:56 AM 14th Dec 2014 edited by Darksilverhawk
"If it exists, there is porn of it — no exceptions." Not on it. Porn of the DA site itself would count (you're welcome)- DA hosting pornographic material has nothing to do with it. The Internet Is for Porn is the appropriate trope here. (And notably that page itself is NRLEP)
09:35:13 AM 14th Dec 2014 edited by KarjamP
I was replying to Candi who misinterpreted what you're saying as "on it" instead of "of it".
Anyway, Rule 34 doesn't go into the page anyway due to it being an Omnipresent Trope (if how you described it's really true).
BinaryStep Medium: Webcomic
02:30:20 AM 14th Dec 2014
Sinfest appears to have been bowdlerized by a nannybot.
see/hide 1 replies
02:30:20 AM 14th Dec 2014
Reverted and messaged.
02:10:54 AM 14th Dec 2014
How would I go about reporting broken custom titles? Because I just discovered a couple—Gorō Naya and Rokurô Naya.
see/hide 2 replies
09:00:57 PM 13th Dec 2014
Here is fine. You can also holler for moderator assistance from the affected pages, under "tools".
02:10:54 AM 14th Dec 2014
Actually, you'll need to start a Tech Wishlist topic on this. There is some kind of issue with titles and resubmitting them doesn't do any good.