Ask The Tropers - TV Tropes

Ask The Tropers

Appeals to the troper hivemind...

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MagBas
Medium:
04:35:50 AM 24th May 2015
see/hide 0 replies  

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Kuruni
Medium:
03:56:03 AM 24th May 2015
edited by Kuruni
Whenever the flowplayer ads playing, it become very hard to edit.

Geez, I could type this querry in single go, But it was playing then (but not while I edit the querry). You have no idea how many times I have to slam the keyboard just to get single space typed.
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SetsunasaNiWa
02:01:04 AM 24th May 2015
edited by SetsunasaNiWa
Oh yes, they grab the focus from text editing boxes some way. And since I'm often editing to delete things, by hitting backspace too early a few times, I'm commanding my browser to go "Back" that many times instead. Not particularly fluid experience either.

The forums have a conversation for bad advertisements. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13223684920A10189100 Although I think by now they would've caught on to the video ads. This makes me believe they intend to keep them despite what front post of the linked topic says.
SeptimusHeap
02:44:35 AM 24th May 2015
It's not as easy as "catching on".
Candi
03:56:03 AM 24th May 2015
edited by Candi
Ads are often received as a bundle. When a site has as many pages as this one does, the ad has to be reported by name, possibly with "Inspect Element" data copy-pasted or at least a screen shot, to be able to stomp it.

Also, slimy little bastards with the ethics of a grub feeding on a lawyer will submit a good ad for approval, then swap it out with a bad ad for final delivery. So the ad isn't 'caught' until it shows.

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bwburke94
Medium:
03:30:06 AM 24th May 2015
A few questions regarding the 2015 Supergirl series (NOT LEAK RELATED)

  1. The (unrelated) 1979 Japanese series will never get a page due to being obscure borderline softcore pornography and thus failing 5P. This means that the only tropable series called "Supergirl" is the 2015 one — but the page is still located at Series/Supergirl2015 with Series/Supergirl as a redirect. Is this actually correct usage?
  2. The correct custom title would be "Supergirl (2015)", following the lead of The Flash (2014) and various other year disambiguations, so I just submitted it as a request. My second question is... why was this custom title not submitted when the page was moved?
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SeptimusHeap
03:20:40 AM 24th May 2015
  1. Works either way I think. Also, I am not certain if the Japanese series would fail 5P.
  2. Mistake, maybe?
Zyffyr
03:30:06 AM 24th May 2015
Whether or not the Japanese series ever gets a page, having it at Supergirl2015 will at least keep the subpages separate from the 1984 film.

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MrL1193
Medium:
03:25:14 AM 24th May 2015
edited by MrL1193
Retro7's edits have a variety of issues, namely natter, indentation errors, poor grammar, and (as I discovered just now) spoiler tags on Recap pages. In the past few weeks, I've sent him notifiers about all of those issues except the spoilers, but I haven't gotten any response out of him, nor does he seem to have learned from his errors.

(If you need examples of the grammar errors, Fanfic.Bioshock Right Place Right Time Wrong Guy and Characters.Sally Bollywood seem to be entirely his work.)

With that said, the thing is, I've only actually notified him about each of those issues (apart from spoilers) once each prior to today. It's kind of weird; normally I'd call attention to someone after getting after them about one thing repeatedly, but in this case, it's more the combination of issues that has me concerned.

Well...I guess I'll let you guys decide what, if anything, should be done.
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SeptimusHeap
03:25:14 AM 24th May 2015
While I didn't spot obvious grammar issues, the other concerns are reason for yet another suspension.

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Mitis
Medium:
03:21:43 AM 24th May 2015
Are there any rules or guidelines for creating new trope pages for Fan Fictions? That is, are there any requirements of the Fan Fiction itself, in regards to length, popularity, or anything of the sort?
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Gideoncrawle
09:58:59 PM 23rd May 2015
Only the same rules that govern all work pages. There Is No Such Thing as Notability.
Karxrida
10:06:16 PM 23rd May 2015
While there isn't a length requirement that I know of, I personally would recommend waiting until there's a couple chapters and/or a couple thousand words of text so there's ample Troping material.
SeptimusHeap
03:21:43 AM 24th May 2015
There is a rule that the page needs to have at least 3 good trope examples listed.

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harryhenry
Medium:
03:18:30 AM 24th May 2015
Minor edit war in Reddit between YungVenuz and ChopShop. (The reason why I'm reporting this is because the stuff they're editing over is pretty Flame Bait-y)
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DracMonster
08:59:56 AM 23rd May 2015
Is Reddit even a work? It should be a Useful Notes page.
wrm5
09:09:35 AM 23rd May 2015
The name "Yung Venuz" seems familiar to me... wasn't that person edit warring over Reddit or Tumblr or something before?
MattStriker
11:34:28 AM 23rd May 2015
Nothing regarding Reddit that I could find, but a search for his name does reveal a previous suspension for edit warring.

Also, Reddit vs. 4Chan is the best kind of fight. Whoever loses, humanity wins :P.
YungVenuz
12:13:13 AM 24th May 2015
^^ No, just some scuffle about Self Demonstrating pages.
SeptimusHeap
03:18:30 AM 24th May 2015
I've locked that page. I am getting misgivings about listing tropes on such websites. Too many instances aren't about online personas but about real people.

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Midna
Medium: Live Action TV
02:42:35 AM 24th May 2015
All right, I'm incredibly annoyed now. Someone keeps going around in the Live Action TV sections of various pages and changing (for example) entries like these:

  • An episode of the mid-2000's Disney Channel sitcom Wizards of Waverly Place...

into these:

  • Wizards of Waverly Place: An episode of this mid-2000's Disney Channel sitcom...

I understand the need to alphabetize, but this is just lazy. Who keeps doing this?
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lexicon
06:54:16 PM 23rd May 2015
You can find out who by going to the page history.
Midna
07:02:13 PM 23rd May 2015
Hmm... I just checked, and all these shenanigans apparently happened long ago. Like, old-layout long ago. Two years ago long ago. I guess we're not solving that mystery, annoying as it is.
Candi
07:43:02 PM 23rd May 2015
I plead guilty to having done that a few times, but only when the entry needed rewriting in the first place for some reason, and I didn't confine it to just LA TV. Just going through and doing it to do it because of personal preference strikes me as a waste of time.
nrjxll
12:14:24 AM 24th May 2015
Um, what exactly is wrong with this? It's not something I would waste any time on myself, but it seems harmless.
SetsunasaNiWa
02:05:40 AM 24th May 2015
edited by SetsunasaNiWa
It is not harmless, it is not lazy, it is not alphabetization thing. What it is is the "State the source" rule adherence, see Administrivia.How To Write An Example.

When you read through list of examples, you skim looking for familiar work names. The name should be closer to the start of the line so you don't have to overinvest into reading things you do not need at all. That thought alone's enough to warrant such rule.

Edit: For page alphabetization, things like this aren't any extra obstacle.
SeptimusHeap
02:42:35 AM 24th May 2015
It's a style question. Something for Wiki Talk.

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nomuru2d
Medium: Videogame
02:42:18 AM 24th May 2015
Would it be possible to get an edit done on the Fallen Creator page? In lieu of this interview, it seems a correction needs to be made regarding Denis Dyack.
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nombretomado
08:57:48 PM 23rd May 2015
Here's the forum thread for such requests.
nomuru2d
09:41:46 PM 23rd May 2015
Can't access forum due to being forum-banned since last year.
nomuru2d
10:36:39 PM 23rd May 2015
Repeat for visibility: can't access the forum due to being forum-banned since last year, so that is why I am asking here.
SeptimusHeap
02:42:18 AM 24th May 2015
Put it in the discussion page. I do periodically monitor discussion pages for edit requests.

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lexicon
Medium:
10:12:59 PM 23rd May 2015
What happens when a review is flagged? There's one that's flagged and the comments keep going about how it deserves to be flagged and the other side gets offended. Is there a chance it will be taken down?
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SeptimusHeap
03:09:35 PM 11th May 2015
Link to review, please?
lexicon
03:30:39 PM 11th May 2015
MrL1193
04:33:25 PM 11th May 2015
edited by MrL1193
Left a comment on the review.

Personally, while I may agree with the comments pointing out that the characters become more rounded in later seasons, I still feel like most of the review could be seen as personal opinion, which is not obligated to be positive. The fact that people are getting offended because the reviewer compared the show to certain other cartoons seems especially silly and opinion-based.

That said, I do think calling fans of the show strange (complete with emoticon snark) was uncalled-for. It seems a bit hypocritical to take a jab at them like that and then try to use the "It's just my opinion" defense. But really, that's the only part of the review that immediately stands out to me as inappropriate.

DISCLAIMER: Not a mod.
lexicon
04:46:04 PM 11th May 2015
I'm pretty sure the times the show referred to as 'shitty' is inappropriate.
MrL1193
08:08:41 PM 11th May 2015
Why? Because you disagree? You know that's not enough of a reason to remove someone else's opinion.
Larkmarn
09:52:46 PM 11th May 2015
... because it's needlessly confrontational and complain-y?
MrL1193
10:36:40 PM 11th May 2015
I should clarify that I'm making a distinction between negativity directed at the fans and negativity directed at the show. I definitely do not think the former is acceptable (and I agree that the reviewer engaged in it a bit), but I fail to see how one could forbid the latter in reviews. It just strikes me as very odd that you would say that complaining, of all things, is out of place in a review.
SeptimusHeap
11:07:34 PM 11th May 2015
Ah, someone flagged that review because of the negative tone. Reviews exist to air opinions and thus such is not a deletion reason.

I'll leave a comment regarding the tone of the discussion.
MrL1193
11:28:33 PM 20th May 2015
It occurred to me to check up on this again today, and it seems that the tone of the discussion hasn't improved one bit since Septimus left a comment. Also, it's apparently dragged on long enough that other tropers are getting annoyed at seeing the review at the top of the list all the time because of the constant feuding.
Fighteer
04:55:23 AM 21st May 2015
This time, we can point to the problem as being one hundred percent the fault of the people arguing. The review itself is fine. The fact that some fans of the show can't accept that someone might not like it and might publicly say so is what's generated all the drama.

Frankly, I'm inclined to leave it up just to prove this.
JapaneseTeeth
09:11:42 AM 21st May 2015
I think the sticking point isn't so much that he thinks the show sucks so much as the potshot at the fandom at the end where he says "It's shitty for older people who aren't strange", which pretty clearly implies "anybody adult who thinks this show is any good is a freak". Granted, I think the comments are blowing it way out of proportion, but claiming anybody who likes the show is a weirdo isn't a criticism of the show, but of the people who watch it, and I'm pretty sure reviews aren't the place for that.
MrL1193
06:05:53 PM 21st May 2015
^I agree that the potshot toward the fandom is toeing the line (regardless of the reviewer's attempts to whitewash it), but it seems like a lot of people were indeed offended by the negativity toward the show alone. I mean, just look at the responses I got over here when I tried to say that negativity isn't a reason for removal.
lexicon
08:33:08 PM 21st May 2015
Most MLP reviews don't get that much criticism because they don't finish an entirely negative reviews with, "which makes it shitty. But for older people. Older people who aren't strange. :)"
SolipSchism
08:37:46 AM 22nd May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
^^ You might mean "skirting the line" or "pushing the line"; "toeing the line" actually means almost the opposite of what I think you intended. It means to adhere closely to the standards—to behave exceptionally well, in other words. :p
VeryMelon
09:53:44 AM 22nd May 2015
"Guys, before anyone else gets mad about that last part of the review, keep in mind I never said being weird is a bad thing. I legit think bronies are weird, but pretty much everyone on earth is weird in their own way. =)"

This comment feels like a poor attempt at explaining away his previous potshot at the older fans, but other than that I don't spectacularly have an opinion on the drama going on.
MrL1193
02:39:42 PM 22nd May 2015
edited by MrL1193
^^I suppose you could use that interpretation, but I can't say it's one I'm familiar with. My mental image was of one person drawing a line in the sand and saying, "Don't cross this line!" and of the other person walking up to it and putting his toe right on it, or possibly even poking it across a bit. (My idea of "behaving exceptionally well" would be not going anywhere near the line.)
muddycurve424
09:29:12 PM 22nd May 2015
" "Toe the line" is an idiomatic expression meaning either to conform to a rule or standard, or to stand poised at the starting line in a footrace. Other phrases which were once used in the early 1800s and have the same meaning were toe the mark and toe the plank."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toe_the_line

Idioms are confusing and not always intuitive. That's why Amelia Bedelia is so funny.
sgamer82
10:26:19 PM 22nd May 2015
In the first case i thought Toe the Line was more about seeing how close you can get to breaking a rule with actually doing so
DracMonster
05:33:25 AM 23rd May 2015
No, the phrase means "Guys, this is ATT not Yack Fest, let's get back on track."
Midna
07:27:07 PM 23rd May 2015
edited by Midna
Speaking as someone who kind of fell out of the whole "brony" thing about partway through Season 4 (you can't top Coco Pommel : P), I can say that, yes, this article does seem pretty inflammatory/trollish to me. If you don't like the show, OK, that's fine. But you said that the show is "shit" (not just "bad") and then called everyone who likes it "weird". That's being a Fan Hater. Don't be a Fan Hater.

And then you go and say that Teen Titans Go! is better, which... I'm sorry. It's really, really not.
Karxrida
10:12:59 PM 23rd May 2015
edited by Karxrida
As a person who is completely indifferent to the show and its fandom, I say leave the review up. Yes that potshot at the end was unnecessary, but it's nowhere bad enough to justify taking down an otherwise legit review. If we really have to, just request that the author apologize for his remark and/or have it edited, but don't take it down.

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lexicon
Medium:
05:29:09 PM 23rd May 2015
Is the edit on Naruto The New Era good? The last time pave17 added it back he said he'd "rephrase it in as neutral a manner as I can and leave it here" and commented it out. If it's good it should be visible.
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Karxrida
05:29:09 PM 23rd May 2015
It should be visible yeah, but it looks more like an example of Not So Differnet to me.

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lalalei2001
Medium: Western Animation
05:15:05 PM 23rd May 2015
I was watching Nick Jr. and saw the show for Dora's Explorer Girls, which retains the original's adventure tropes, tones down Explorer Girls's perceived girliness, and even has villains. it's also got a completely different title, "Dora and Friends: Into the City."

Since the actual show is called "Into the City" and retains the original show's adventure tropes, what should be done with this page? Should we split it off or add Into the City tropes onto it? (It seems to rectify a lot of what fans complained about from the premiere.)
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harryhenry
Medium:
01:50:36 PM 23rd May 2015
British Newspapers is very snarky and complain-y towards almost all the papers featured on the page.
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MattStriker
06:10:01 AM 22nd May 2015
Very funny read, though. If it has to be pruned down, can the current state be preserved somehow, maybe on Darth Wiki? :P
SetsunasaNiWa
01:14:18 PM 22nd May 2015
No one will waste time pruning it. No one will bother deciding for everyone else what is the right take on Useful Notes mission and how to best achieve it in this very objectively of-widespread-interest (not) subject. (I would say many of Useful Notes are bad, but the next question I can't answer will be where's something good then.)

I came to TVT thinking of tropes as documentation of tricks of storytelling, and of Useful Notes as easily accessible expert introductions to certain area of knowledge so that a TVT-reading creator would avoid possible mispresentation of that area in his work. Galactic-scale disillusionment descended upon me, it did.

Some people say it's fun. What can you do now? Nothing, drop a complaint on the discussion page for that piece and keep your proper wits with you.
SolipSchism
01:24:32 PM 22nd May 2015
And goddamn there are a lot of improper wicks on that page to works and Useful Notes pages that are wicked as if they're in the Main namespace.
SetsunasaNiWa
12:11:10 PM 23rd May 2015
Will kicking it to Just for Fun namespace be an acceptable solution?
KyleJacobs
01:50:36 PM 23rd May 2015
I don't really mind what happens to it as long as the text is recorded somewhere.

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MrL1193
Medium:
12:07:28 PM 23rd May 2015
UsefulNotes.Gordon Brown, in addition to having a list of tropes for a real-life person, is extremely derisive toward the subject. Now, I admit that, as an ignorant American, I'm not at all familiar with this British politician myself, but the page seems like it's going way overboard with the negativity, making him out to be a complete laughingstock. Is there anything that can be done to salvage it?
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NemuruMaeNi
11:24:58 PM 21st May 2015
Cut everything from the point where examples in media section start — upwards till some first paragraph, clean out the personal jabs from it, cut the image and the caption, cut page quotes, salvage the phrase about end of his office tenure, cut the Funny/ subpage, skim for poor style moments over examples in media. Edit reason: "retelling what runs people in satire industry had with his persona should be less obfuscated, less looking like an agenda."
Bisected8
03:06:35 AM 22nd May 2015
The real life troping needs to go, but the description seems fine to me (it does point out that he was unpopular during his time in office, but it doesn't condemn him for it — if anything it makes him out to be The Woobie).
NemuruMaeNi
03:54:55 AM 22nd May 2015
^ Obvious contradiction. Calling a real-life politician The Woobie, while vouching for not troping real life.
Bisected8
04:12:35 AM 22nd May 2015
The Woobie was simply how I summarised the description, not him being troped.
GnomeTitan
05:26:24 AM 22nd May 2015
Nemuru Mae Ni: Note that Bisected8 writes "makes him out to be The Woobie", not "makes him The Woobie". There's a big difference between those statements: the latter is troping Mr. Brown, the former is just describing what other people say.
SolipSchism
08:31:25 AM 22nd May 2015
I brought this page up in the Removing Negativity and Bashing etc. thread a few months ago, but it doesn't look like anybody's traipsed over there yet. I don't know the first thing about British politics so I can't do much about it myself without also doing a boatload of research, but it doesn't take a political expert to see that that page really hates Brown.
MattStriker
08:57:23 AM 22nd May 2015
Well, in terms of popularity, Brown was basically the UK's answer to Dan Quayle.
SolipSchism
09:10:12 AM 22nd May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
^ Aside from the fact that comparing one politician I know nothing about to another I know nothing about doesn't tell me anything about either of them (except that apparently you think Dan Quayle was a shitty politician), neither of them need to be described on TV Tropes with phrases such as "[making him Prime Minister was] one of the worst job moves ever", "boring", an "Evil Chancellor", "The Starscream", or "better at taking over the place than he was at actually running it".

We constantly bring this up in regard to works but apparently it hasn't sunk in that this applies to Useful Notes: Popularity and reception of anything does not matter at all, one lick, one bit, anywhere outside of a YMMV namespace.

We don't even describe Hitler as evil (or at least, we shouldn't), so there's no way we should be describing Gordon Brown as a shitty politician. We can document objective facts, and if that makes him look like a shitty politician, readers can draw the "obvious" conclusion, but we should not say that outright. It's Useful Notes, not a second-rate editorial funded by a political party.
GnomeTitan
11:06:34 AM 22nd May 2015
If Evil Chancellor is indeed an example on the page, I suppose it could be removed just on the grounds that we never apply evil tropes to real people.
Wyldchyld
08:27:02 PM 22nd May 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
It's caught the mood of the way the tabloids reported and assassinated him. That means it's not particularly accurate - or usefully informative - except to capture the mood of the tabloids at the time, and the sentiment they whipped up in the country at the time. It's done that part very well.

I think most of the tropes shouldn't be there.

However, it looks like there's a similar problem with most of the prime ministers.
lakingsif
06:02:10 AM 23rd May 2015
^ that problem comes up whenever there's an election. His former party are trying to find a new leader so there's all this debate of Brown vs Blair. Realistically, he doesn't need a page that extensive but I don't find such a big problem with a lot of the tropes if they're public reactionary ones.
Wyldchyld
09:01:20 AM 23rd May 2015
edited by Wyldchyld
They seem to be mostly an excuse to take a pot shot at him - usually about things the tabloids whipped up rather than what actually happened. They're certainly not an impartial record, and they're targeting the man rather than the public or tabloids. and that is a problem.

Like I said, several of the prime ministers' pages seem to be experiencing this to a degree; not to the extent of this page, however.
DracMonster
09:14:01 AM 23rd May 2015
edited by DracMonster
We normally have to keep the page for the current American president locked even for a while after they leave office. Methinks this may need to apply to Prime Ministers as well, although I admit David Cameron's page isn't too bad right now.

EDIT: Argh, except for having a trope list.
wrm5
11:27:10 AM 23rd May 2015
To be fair, it's not an issue of being an "ignorant American." I mean, how much do you think the average Brit really knows about Barack Obama? That he's black, President, and basically nothing else?
SetsunasaNiWa
12:07:28 PM 23rd May 2015
edited by SetsunasaNiWa
Cut and torched things down. This has dragged on too long for Ask the Tropers. (signed: Nemuru Mae Ni's sockpuppet)

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SolipSchism
Medium:
08:35:53 PM 22nd May 2015
Uh, is it just me, or does The War on Terror seem exceptionally critical of the US (with such comments as "[the USA's] willingness to use morally dubious means ... and actively kill thousands of other countries' citizens to save her own"), not to mention apparently implying that "the brutality of Hussein's secular police state" was a good thing? Should we be implicitly endorsing Saddam Hussein and mentioning in the same breath that he ran a "brutal" "secular police state"? I'm pretty sure that reaches a level of opinionated editorializing that we try to avoid.

I'm not trying to whitewash references to the US, I get that the war is/was unpopular and poorly handled, but some of the language on this article seems... inappropriate.
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nrjxll
06:49:41 PM 21st May 2015
...Why the hell is that page not locked? I can understand the need to have a page for the subject, but leaving it open to editing by any random person seems like a monumentally ill-advised idea.
crazysamaritan
06:52:48 PM 21st May 2015
Pages are left unlocked until proven problems.
gallium
08:56:37 PM 21st May 2015
"I can understand the need to have a page for the subject"

I can't.
nrjxll
08:59:36 PM 21st May 2015
^It's been the subject of a fair number of works of fiction and an influence on others. Works of fiction are what this site is all about.

However, I definitely think this qualifies as a proven problem. We don't want political soapboxing.

I honestly think we should just lock any page on a real topic from within the last 10-20 years by default.
MattStriker
01:17:02 AM 22nd May 2015
It's critical, yes, but I see nothing unreasonable there.
GnomeTitan
05:28:33 AM 22nd May 2015
edited by GnomeTitan
Reasonable is in the eye of the beholder - but even granted that there is nothing unreasonable there now (I haven't checked the page myself, so I don't know if that's true or not), it will probably not stay that way. A page with critical comments about current superpower policies is a giant flame-and-natter magnet.
Ramona122003
06:38:39 AM 22nd May 2015
My stance. If something isn't proven to be factually incorrect, then I see no problem. Being critical is never the problem. It is when people bend the facts to suit their own agenda or outright lie that things can become nasty. If things remained civil on that page, I see no reason to lock it.
MattStriker
06:46:49 AM 22nd May 2015
Hmm. Maybe a case could be made for adding some commented-out reminders about the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement in a prominent location (i.e. the very top of the page code, where nobody opening an edit window could ever claim they hadn't seen it).
Larkmarn
06:51:43 AM 22nd May 2015
^^ I have to disagree. This is not the place to be critical at all, true or not. We can state the facts and we can (and should) give examples of works being critical of it, but we categorically shouldn't take a side.
SolipSchism
08:25:04 AM 22nd May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
I would like to note that it's not "a page on the subject", it's a trope. Along the lines of genres. If it were Useful Notes, I'd be even more keen on toning down the commentary, but there is a reason the page has a ton of examples (Useful Notes pages should not have examples; this isn't a Useful Notes page).

But I wouldn't call an implication that a brutal police state (the page's words, not mine) is a good thing "reasonable" or even "critical", I'd call it "nowhere near TV Tropes' mission".

Besides which, since it is a trope, is it really necessary to provide all the statistics and historical information about the actual war? I mean, if the majority of all works on the War On Terror portray America as a bunch of instigating dickbags, then sure, note on the page that the trope usually manifests with America being portrayed as a bunch of instigating dickbags, but I don't think that's the case. And that "America should have left well enough alone because Saddam's brutal secular police state was doing just fine at keeping the peace" comment really seems inappropriate to me.
GnomeTitan
11:14:47 AM 22nd May 2015
edited by GnomeTitan
Can a real-world historic event really be a trope? "War on terror" in general certainly could if we wanted, but can the War on Terror really be one?

The fact that it is being used in lots of fictional stories doesn't matter: at least some real-world wars, such as World War II (which I'm sure has lots more fictional depictions than The War on Terror) are useful notes, not tropes.
SolipSchism
11:32:27 AM 22nd May 2015
^ Actually I think you're right. I might have misunderstood it because it's listed under War Movies.

But in that case, the question becomes "Do we treat this (and pages for other wars) as a trope about that war used as a setting, or do we treat it as a Useful Notes page describing the war?"
Candi
08:35:53 PM 22nd May 2015
Regardless if it's Useful Notes or a trope, opinions, pro or con, should not be on the pages, since they are irrelevant to how they are used in fiction. Individual authors will have their opinions, but there is no reason to have such opinions on information or trope pages.

And a lot of that material is treading on opinion and subjective territory.

The War on Terror can be a trope, since more than one fictional regime has used 'The Terrorists' as a diversion or focus from what they're doing. (Most such regimes being the story's bad guys is beside the current point.) But War on Terror as a Trope and War on Terror as a historical event are two different things that somewhat overlap, and need different pages.

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DracMonster
Medium:
08:21:22 PM 22nd May 2015
edited by DracMonster
Un-Person has seven Real Life folders. That ain't kosher right?

Edit: Actually, there's a load of general examples and other bad stuff. I'm debating whether to bring this to the no real life examples thread now.
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SolipSchism
01:25:34 PM 22nd May 2015
What in the hell? Yeah, this needs to be examined.
Morgenthaler
02:27:43 PM 22nd May 2015
In fact, it already has been brought up there-we still need to clean it.
Ultimatum
05:38:07 PM 22nd May 2015
How the hell?
DracMonster
07:15:37 PM 22nd May 2015
^^Ah yes found it. Looks like the decree is to just clean out the bad. I'll see if I can get around to it this weekend.
Candi
08:21:22 PM 22nd May 2015
Even where RL folders are either keep and clean, or it hasn't been necessary to deal with them, it's always just one folder. RL examples in an "Other" folder counts as an extra folder.

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MegaMarioMan
Medium: Videogame
12:55:59 PM 22nd May 2015
For Endless Game, should I remove the Endless Running Game folder and link to the page instead?
see/hide 1 replies  
SetsunasaNiWa
12:55:59 PM 22nd May 2015
edited by SetsunasaNiWa
Someone thought they've split off a specific group, like a folder of a media category. That's quite wrong. What they came upon is Sub-Trope / Super Trope relationship. Acknowledging that is what I think would be a natural thing to rework pages toward.

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Tallens
Medium:
10:29:32 AM 22nd May 2015
For the trope The Kingslayer, there are a few examples that are actually of killing presidents, so I thought to have Presidential Assassin as a redirect. Is there an approval process or can I just go ahead and create the redirect?
see/hide 1 replies  
SolipSchism
10:29:32 AM 22nd May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
^ We're actually working on the Tyrannicide and Regicide YKTTWs, one of which might cover that if and when they get launched.

EDIT: Oh, disregard, it looks like that trope explicitly covers the idea by itself.

Well... I don't see the need for a redirect, especially on such a new trope. Is there any reason you can't just say The Kingslayer and explain that the president is getting assassinated? Like... that's the trope.

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eroock
Medium:
08:35:27 AM 22nd May 2015
Dies Wide Shut redirects to Dies Wide Open, though the relevant trope seems to be Big Sleep.
see/hide 2 replies  
gallium
08:58:38 PM 21st May 2015
I believe that Dies Wide Open was originally called Dies Wide Shut but was renamed, since the trope is about dying with your eyes open.
SolipSchism
08:35:27 AM 22nd May 2015
I'm guessing it was named as a pun on Eyes Wide Shut before somebody realized that that was a Bad Trope Namer.

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VenomLancerHae
Medium:
08:33:24 AM 22nd May 2015
edited by VenomLancerHae
Are pages that are in the Useful Notes page just Useful Notes or are they also tropes in their own rights ?

I'm asking this since Norse Mythology is listed under the Useful Notes index and is a Myth page and I don't know if I can delete the Norse Mythology example in Magicka because of the fact that Norse Mythology is a Useful Notes Myth.
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SeptimusHeap
11:53:37 PM 21st May 2015
They are not tropes at all. The Myth pages are works, really.
VenomLancerHae
12:06:55 AM 22nd May 2015
Ok, thank you.
SolipSchism
08:33:24 AM 22nd May 2015
^^ Which by extension means they shouldn't be listed as tropes anyway, since neither Useful Notes nor works pages should be linked as trope examples.

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MattStriker
Medium:
06:00:48 AM 22nd May 2015
So...Fridge stuff, how does it work? I've seen fridge examples pop up on YMMV pages, presumably when there's not enough of them to justify a proper fridge subpage. Is that legit? Would it be acceptable to add a fridge subpage for a single example?
see/hide 2 replies  
SeptimusHeap
03:46:59 AM 22nd May 2015
Listing them on YMMV is legit.
MattStriker
06:00:48 AM 22nd May 2015
Thanks.

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eroock
Medium:
05:58:24 PM 21st May 2015
What's the policy for using the F word in images with speech bubbles? Like at Escape Tropes.
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crazysamaritan
12:27:11 PM 19th May 2015
edited by crazysamaritan
No Lewdishness No Prudishness covers it, i think.

Edit: spell check failed me — No Lewdness, No Prudishness
bitemytail
02:08:24 PM 19th May 2015
Doesn't that cover sexual content, not foul language?
SeptimusHeap
02:10:36 PM 19th May 2015
Yep. Not the pertinent policy. The Family Friendly policy is the relevant one.
bwburke94
02:17:02 PM 19th May 2015
Ordinarily, I'd say TV Tropes is not censored, but considering that image was likely added specifically because of the word "fuck", I'd suggest taking this to Image Pickin'.
SolipSchism
03:39:11 PM 19th May 2015
^ I agree with bwburke here. There's nothing really wrong with the image, but an equally good one without the swearing could probably be found pretty easily.
eroock
03:44:48 PM 19th May 2015
Will do.
wrm5
05:12:12 PM 19th May 2015
Worst case scenario someone could always use photoshop to put a blur over that word. ...or would that be a problem?
GnomeTitan
12:57:26 AM 20th May 2015
I suppose we don't want the site to get a reputation for bluenose bowdlerization either, so censoring the image is probably not a good idea.
bwburke94
01:00:34 AM 20th May 2015
^^ Don't censor the image, it will just upset the fans of the original work who know the quote had an f-bomb.
SolipSchism
08:20:45 AM 20th May 2015
^^ This; it would be a clumsy attempt to "protect" people from swearing, which is not the point of our policy on swearing.
KyleJacobs
03:36:54 PM 20th May 2015
^^That actually strikes me as a pretty good example of Spice Up the Subtitles - Japanese doesn't really have expletives in the same way English does.
bwburke94
05:58:24 PM 21st May 2015
^ Well, Japanese has "kuso", but that's not always an expletive.

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YungVenuz
Medium:
03:10:03 PM 21st May 2015
There's a constant edit war about (surprise) feminism on Supergirl (2015) about if the feminism is too ham-handed.
see/hide 7 replies  
SolipSchism
01:39:51 PM 21st May 2015
I am giving that history section my flattest stare of disapproval, but the stupidity just will. Not. Disappear.
Larkmarn
01:45:46 PM 21st May 2015
edited by Larkmarn
Can I just say I hate Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped?

It's pretty much synonymous with Anvilicious as the work wouldn't bother being anvilicious if the writers didn't believe SANTBD. I don't think I ever see Anvilicious without the other.
Discar
01:57:53 PM 21st May 2015
Yeah, I've been watching that, hoping it would peter out on its own. Surprise, it hasn't.
harryhenry
02:12:35 PM 21st May 2015
I apologies for continuing that edit war. Should I revert it?
TheNerfGuy
02:25:31 PM 21st May 2015
chopshop is already edit warring. I've messaged them about the rudeness of their edit reason, regardless.
SolipSchism
03:01:41 PM 21st May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
That page is a mess anyway. The other Anvilicious example isn't even written to explain how it's anvilicious; it sounds more like Unfortunate Implications. Jfc.

EDIT: Oh. Ohhhh. I see why that page is such a cess-pit of garbage examples and natter. It's yet another upcoming work that doesn't actually exist yet, which means it's an entire YMMV page based on trailers.

I'm judging these editors so hard right now.
wrm5
03:10:03 PM 21st May 2015
I feel like we need to make Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped into In-Universe Examples Only.

It was supposed to be for works that are totally Anvilicious, but only because it's a major issue despite being something no rational person should ever do, like "don't text and drive" or "'no' means 'no' no matter how short the girl's skirt is."

But, like Unfortunate Implications, it's become subject to major misuse to the extent where it's basically used for anything the troper agrees with.

Like... "You shouldn't murder your family and wear their skin as a coat. Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped." "You shouldn't swan dive into an active volcano. Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped." "My favorite color is purple. Some Anvils Need to Be Dropped."

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StFan
Medium:
11:14:10 AM 21st May 2015
edited by StFan
Troper Legitimus moved the content of the page LARP.Society For Creative Anachronism to the Main/ namespace (and cutlisted the page), with the following explanation:

"moved back to original. The LARP label not only wrong but actually considered offensive"

I'd like to know if there was any discussion motivating this? I would have thought the LARP/ namespace was fitting for the page, and anyway Main/ is for tropes, which this article clearly isn't. (The editor didn't bother indexing it, by the way.)
see/hide 11 replies  
Fighteer
11:49:43 AM 20th May 2015
edited by Fighteer
Suspended. Please undo the move, although I'm not sure that LARP is a sanctioned media namespace. Also, the article is troping real people, even if they are engaged in fictional pursuits. Maybe Role Play would be more suitable.

Edit: I'm told that LARP is indeed a valid namespace. I don't really see how this fits our mission, though.
GnomeTitan
12:30:21 PM 20th May 2015
The Society for Chreative Anachronism is certainly not a work. If the purpose of the page is informational, perhaps it could be made into a Useful Note?
SolipSchism
01:08:34 PM 20th May 2015
Kind of makes me want to add an Insistent Terminology example: "It is not LARPing." *snerk*

But anyway... Yeah, it's not a work, and it doesn't sound like they produce any works, so it's not a creator. Useful Notes might be the best place for it... though I'm not sure how "useful" it is.
Larkmarn
01:31:56 PM 20th May 2015
edited by Larkmarn
Yeah, LARP/ even has its own namespace icon.

That said, as far as a "work" goes, the vast majority of examples are "you might see someone like this."

Which doesn't really seem like an example in the way we do things. It's troping real people.

^ Incidentally, calling it LARP is listed under Berserk Button.
StFan
02:25:54 PM 20th May 2015
The Berserk Button comment was added by the same editor who moved the page to Main/. I noticed only after moving it back; I'm of two minds about removing it.

But anyway, LARP/ still seems the most fitting namespace. Its range is rather wide, it's also used for Humans vs. Zombies or Model United Nations.
SolipSchism
02:34:07 PM 20th May 2015
^ It seems like a kind of LARPing, but it's not a single coherent tropable work, as evidenced by the lack of actual legitimate examples on the page.

However, if we're considering it a work, and considering that it and its redirects only have 39 wicks between them, here's my suggestion:

  • Clean the examples. Remove all the ones that violate policy.
  • Count what remains.
  • If there aren't enough examples left, the page needs to either be pimped out for Wiki Magic or cut.

A work for which we can't come up with at least a handful of legit tropes may or may not be a legitimate work, but there's no sense having a page if we're not troping it.
crazysamaritan
04:29:00 PM 20th May 2015
The SCA is more of a club than a roleplay. While some people create personas, it is also accepted to just use your name. Skills and education is the primary goal.

I wouldn't consider it a "work" any more than the Masons, a college fraternity, or a book club.
Candi
05:29:34 PM 20th May 2015
edited by Candi
The Society for Creative Anachronism is no more a LARP or RP than the Renaissance Faire or an actors' union.

It is an multinational organization dedicated to learning about and recreating the knowledge and skills of medieval times. Members do have alternate names and heraldry, but it is all part of the fun.

And calling it a LARP is considered insulting.

(I know waaaaaayyyyyyy too much about this, having a very good friend who is highly involved in her chapter -including recently stepping down as Seneschal.)

SCA has been mentioned in a couple fictional works I've read, and I've heard of a few authors consulting them for research purposes or being members themselves and using their acquired knowledge in their books.

Useful Notes would be the best place. While not directly on mission, it can come up in reference to fiction.

EDIT: I asked my friend for some input. Paraphrasing:

"In fiction - the most famous SCA use was in the Christopher Stasheff "Warlock" books, as Gramarye was colonised by SCA people."

For further research, there's a beginners' page here.
MattStriker
05:36:29 AM 21st May 2015
I've also seen references to them in the Honorverse. I'd say Useful Notes would be a pretty good place to put an article about them.
Fighteer
07:40:54 AM 21st May 2015
Useful Notes sounds good to me as well, but that also means stripping off most of the tropes.
crazysamaritan
11:14:10 AM 21st May 2015

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wrm5
Medium:
10:44:32 AM 21st May 2015
So, a recent Wiki Walk led me to Fargo where I noticed that someone mentioned the movie Kumiko The Treasure Hunter, an homage to Fargo, but instead of linking to our page for the movie, they linked to the IMDB page for Kumiko instead.

I fixed it, but I was curious as to what our policy is regarding this sort of thing.
see/hide 5 replies  
SolipSchism
11:02:29 AM 20th May 2015
I would say no if it's just being used as a Pot Hole. If there's a good reason to link specifically to IMDB, maybe, but I can't think of a blanket situation where it'd be appropriate. And certainly not if you're just mentioning or referencing the work.
randomsurfer
07:15:57 PM 20th May 2015
edited by randomsurfer
To be fair, the imdb link was added on March 20th and the Kumiko page only dates from April 9th; so the troper who added the imdb link wasn't wrong (IMO). A red link may be preferable but an IMDB link is acceptable if the work in question doesn't have a page here. (Or such is my understanding.)
gallium
07:59:45 PM 20th May 2015
Yes, I would think that it's OK to link to IMDB or The Other Wiki until a work gets a page here, at which point the links should go to our own page.
SolipSchism
09:36:38 AM 21st May 2015
Considering that tropers are actually encouraged to add Red Links to works that don't have pages here (because it encourages tropers who are familiar with the work to add a page for it), I'd say that is flat-out wrong.

Mostly because if that was done on a large scale, the links would be very difficult to root out and change over. If you red link the page, then once it gets created, the link is suddenly, magically, valid.
Fighteer
10:44:32 AM 21st May 2015
Agreed. You should Red Link missing articles, not link them externally.

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eroock
Medium:
10:36:10 AM 21st May 2015
Describe [trope] here.

What's up with that line which I have seen on a couple of trope descriptions, e.g. No, You?
see/hide 3 replies  
SeptimusHeap
10:30:30 AM 21st May 2015
KorKhan
10:31:33 AM 21st May 2015
It's an artefact from many years ago, when that was the text you saw when you opened pages that didn't exist yet. It's of course long been replaced with a different standard text, but many trope descriptions still have it incorporated into the description without being deleted, as something of an inside joke.
eroock
10:36:10 AM 21st May 2015
It looks out of place in the trope example above. Shall I remove the two lines in question or add the trope to the list on Describe Topic Here?

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TrollBrutal
Medium:
09:08:45 AM 21st May 2015
edited by TrollBrutal
This http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/el.php?findfor=Chortles editor has a habit of inserting natter, unnecessary stuff or disruptive additions under "notes" all over the place in the examples, mostly junk in the middle of sentences, akin to Viewers Are Morons, making quite a mess

One very clear example (I may need help cleaning other insertions in the middle of long texts)

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=BlatantLies.LiveActionTV
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MattStriker
01:04:58 PM 19th May 2015
He also suffers from pothole addiction.

Unrelated issue, by the way: Going through his edit history I found that Game Of Thrones Essos has been blanked by Julian Lapostat when he moved the various regions covered by that page to their own. The empty shell of a page is still around...I've cutlisted it, but somebody might want to have a word with Julian :P.
TrollBrutal
01:03:15 AM 20th May 2015
bwburke94
01:05:28 AM 20th May 2015
^ A more pertinent pothole would be to Arson, Murder, and Jaywalking.
TrollBrutal
01:11:03 AM 20th May 2015
^ :p I considered it, but I like the other one better, if only because it's less overused.
TrollBrutal
11:35:49 PM 20th May 2015
edited by TrollBrutal
I really have to bump this, he keeps polluting entries by inserting notes in the middle of sentences or at the end.

1 2 3 4
NemuruMaeNi
01:58:39 AM 21st May 2015
edited by NemuruMaeNi
^ Regarding Characters/ page (I'm really looking down on Darth/sugar stuff). He does correct your Only Sane Man typo, so it's not malicious-in-its-entirety at least.

The "note" addition to Wouldn't Hurt a Child though is a Justifying Edit (it doesn't matter that it's not a subbullet). Other "note" is, too, something violating the Concise thing, while not telling me, a total non-fan, a thing.
TrollBrutal
02:10:58 AM 21st May 2015
edited by TrollBrutal
It's not "my typo", but there's still one now that you mention it , "noticably".

I find it very disruptive, hidding notes in the middle of sentences is just natter. If it's relevant, just incorporate them in the bloody phrase in a normal way.

I'm waiting for official word of mod before cleaining anything more. I brought it up too in some edit reasons and in a discussion, to no avail.
Fighteer
04:57:01 AM 21st May 2015
Sent him a PM.
Larkmarn
05:54:07 AM 21st May 2015
Oh good, I was just coming here to ask what message I should send to tell someone to stop adding pointless notes to a page. I noticed it here and here.
TrollBrutal
06:34:51 AM 21st May 2015
edited by TrollBrutal
edited : Nevermind, I didn't update the page properly

Cleaning up the mess now.
mlsmithca
09:08:45 AM 21st May 2015
edited by mlsmithca
The editor in question also seems to have a problem with superfluous italics; seemingly everything in quote marks, whether it be an episode title, a dialogue quote, or even a nickname or "sarcastic" quotes, is italicised in their edits. I've zapped them on a few pages; I'll send a PM momentarily. (ETA: PM sent.)

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ACW
Medium:
09:08:04 AM 21st May 2015
Want some opinions: For Complete Monster, should Visual Novels get their own page (it'd be 10 characters from 6 games, plus Ace Attorney and When They Cry have their own pages), or are they close enough to Video Games that they're just a genre? I lean toward the latter myself, but am willing to listen to other arguments.
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wrm5
01:27:05 PM 18th May 2015
Eh, I'd say only split it off if it has enough examples to warrant doing so.
ACW
07:36:41 AM 20th May 2015
Thanks. Any other thoughts?
SeptimusHeap
08:04:59 AM 20th May 2015
Split it off. The subpages for Visual Novel and Video Games are not combined especially not under such a title.
SolipSchism
08:05:38 AM 20th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
I agree with wrm5. They're enough of a grey area that the general rule should be "If there are none or only a handful, they can be rolled up under Video Games. If there are enough to warrant a separate page, that's fine too." Just don't create a separate page if there's only one or two examples—this isn't a Trivia or YMMV subpage.

EDIT: Ninja'd and seems like we're wrong. But then I don't play VNs so I'm probably not that knowledgeable about how similar they are to vidyagaems. :p
ACW
11:17:41 AM 20th May 2015
I was gonna just have visual novel examples under Monster.Video Games (once I finish the Sandbox).
ACW
07:49:09 AM 21st May 2015
So, as to ^?
SolipSchism
09:08:04 AM 21st May 2015
I think Septimus pretty much settled that: No. They are not combined.

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Larkmarn
Medium:
07:39:33 AM 21st May 2015
Continuing this discussion here: Do fictional portrayals of Creators belong on their page?

Specifically, this is a song by an artist about the Creator, which the Creator had no part in writing (though it did get his blessing in the form of appearing in its music video).

I'm also wondering what the wider policy on this would be, such as a Creator appearing in a webcomic or something where they didn't have any say in the appearance but get used anyway.
see/hide 1 replies  
Fighteer
07:39:33 AM 21st May 2015
edited by Fighteer
If a creator appears as a fictional character in a work, that might be worth a citation in their article, but any tropes involved should be listed in the article for the work, not for the creator.

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eroock
Medium:
06:33:17 AM 21st May 2015
Was it really necessary to create those subpages on Grumpy Bear?
see/hide 4 replies  
SolipSchism
03:39:14 PM 20th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
Ergh—ERRRRRGH—that Film subpage hurts my soul.

But, moving on... Looking at the Literature and Live-Action TV ones, no, I don't think it was really necessary, but I doubt it's hurting anything either, as long as they're correctly made.
Discar
05:47:55 PM 20th May 2015
We can literally comment out every example on the Film subpage for being a ZCE.
NemuruMaeNi
11:20:11 PM 20th May 2015
^ Done that.
NemuruMaeNi
06:33:17 AM 21st May 2015
edited by NemuruMaeNi
I'll cutlist it, and merge the commented out "list" into the main article.

Edit: Done. And Main.Grumpy Bear page type has probably to be changed to allow for indexing.

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phoenix
Medium:
06:15:40 AM 21st May 2015
Okay, so the No Real Life Examples, Please! page makes it seem like Villain Tropes and Evil Tropes are never allowed to have Real Life examples, but I've come across a few pages, such as Villain Song and Family Values Villain, that have a Real Life section. Are these violations, exemptions, or just me misunderstanding the NRLEP policy? I know no one is likely to complain about examples related to Hitler or anything, but it seems like examples that deal with still-controversial topics like the American Civil War are potentially problematic.
see/hide 3 replies  
Zyffyr
03:38:40 AM 20th May 2015
We have a permanent forum thread for listing pages as No Real Life... http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13350380440A15238800
phoenix
03:53:44 AM 20th May 2015
Okay, thanks! I totally missed that somehow.
Nohbody
06:15:40 AM 21st May 2015
And for the record in general, that a page should qualify for NRLEP but isn't listed there currently simply means it hasn't come across ^^ that thread's attention. Post about it there to address the issue.

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Elfkaiser
Medium:
11:15:08 PM 20th May 2015
Noticed troper MagBas basically taking alot of Dude, Not Funny! entries out from several YMMV pages with the reason In-Universe Examples Only. Is this course of action correct?
see/hide 4 replies  
Karxrida
10:32:01 PM 20th May 2015
edited by Karxrida
It's listed on the In-Universe Examples Only page, so I believe so. If that's the case, the trope probably shouldn't be listed as a YMMV one.
Elfkaiser
10:54:00 PM 20th May 2015
edited by Elfkaiser
Not sure whether it was listed on the YMMV page or In-Universe Examples Only page first, however from what I gather it has mostly been used in works' YMMV pages because it's an opinion. Based on the YMMV home page and such, opinions go to works' YMMV pages rather than the main work page.

Edit:

Seems Mag Bas has also been doing the same to Jump the Shark with the same reason.
MrL1193
11:12:36 PM 20th May 2015
Well good for MagBas, then, because both pages explicitly state that they only allow in-universe examples. In fact, Jumping the Shark even makes it a point to explain that any other use of it would be Flame Bait (in other words, Darth Wiki material along the lines of Wall Banger and Dethroning Moment of Suck, which mainly just exist to divert complaining away from the main wiki).
NemuruMaeNi
11:15:08 PM 20th May 2015
Put "dudenotfunny" into "search for queries containing" field at the top of Ask the Tropers page here and you'll have your answer.

Some ymmv items entail such kinds of opinion that they've earned that Hall of Low Tolerance admission. They invite complaining and agenda too much, I'd presume.

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KnownUnknown
Medium:
11:00:59 PM 20th May 2015
There are a couple of mystery tropes I've been wondering about.

The first I'm not sure we have: do have have the one where a suspect the audience or even the detective knows to be involved in the crime (or a very strong Red Herring), is killed by the real murderer halfway through the episode?

The second I know we have, but I don't know the name: the trope where someone is murdered to cover up another murder, possibly leading to a chain?
see/hide 2 replies  
muddycurve424
10:06:28 PM 20th May 2015
Candi
11:00:59 PM 20th May 2015
To expand, you want to go to Lost and Found for such queries.

And I can't remember the name of the second one either. :p

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gallium
Medium: Film
08:24:10 PM 20th May 2015
Academy Award got made into a Useful Notes page. Which is fine, I guess, but it doesn't appear to be indexing anymore. It used to be an indexed list of all the films that have ever been nominated for Best Picture. Now the index is not showing up on the films listed. I think this used to be on the "Set Page Type" tool but that's no longer available.
see/hide 8 replies  
SolipSchism
08:26:05 AM 20th May 2015
Who the hell moves 973 wicks but leaves the other 597? Talk about half-measures.

Apparently either Useful Notes pages can't index, or the lack of the ability to page type is just continuing to be the worst thing ever, because I checked UsefulNotes.Nobel Prize In Literature, which is also (supposed to be) an index, and which is also not indexing properly.
SeptimusHeap
09:10:40 AM 20th May 2015
It's hard to move 1500+ wicks in one day. The redirect is listed on Wick Namespace Migration so that's fine.

Fixed the indexing issue.
SolipSchism
09:22:50 AM 20th May 2015
Yeah, but, like... why not just leave the page where it is until the wicks are moved?
bwburke94
01:58:10 PM 20th May 2015
We usually move the page first, even in cases like this where there are 1000+ wicks.
SolipSchism
02:09:55 PM 20th May 2015
Hm. I guess that makes sense for larger pages, especially high traffic ones that people are likely adding wicks to while you're still working.
nombretomado
03:08:32 PM 20th May 2015
If we had to wait for all wicks to be corrected before moving the page, it would be a slow, agonizing process that I imagine would make it more difficult to maintain the rule against work pages in Main/, exactly for that reason of people adding wicks while the move is in place.

As it stands now, the high-traffic wicks simply have to be rechecked occasionally to correct tropers adding new Main/ wicks. It can be a long process for correcting the wicks (hence, my "half measure"), but it's the better option, IMO.
SolipSchism
03:40:33 PM 20th May 2015
All right, fair enough, I'm convinced. The original issue seems to have been solved (or at least band-aid fixed in this case), so I guess we're done here.
gallium
08:24:10 PM 20th May 2015
Pulitzer Prize not indexing.

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Soble
Medium:
01:30:52 PM 20th May 2015
I would like to clean up The Walking Dead Fridge page. The Logic section has natter.

Also, as I understood it, Fridge Logic entries were being pooled into the Headscratchers sections now. I've had edits removed because of this.
see/hide 2 replies  
SolipSchism
01:22:26 PM 20th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
I think that's correct.

Discar
01:30:52 PM 20th May 2015
Any Fridge that demands an answer goes on Headscratchers. Fridge Logic is the worst about this (because people insist on phrasing their entries as questions, which people then answer), but it can apply to the other types as well.

So, yes, basically. Move them over to Headscratchers.

close replies  

VenomLancerHae
Medium: Anime
11:53:41 AM 20th May 2015
edited by VenomLancerHae
Are Works and Creator pages supposed to be listed on a work's trope list? I'm asking this because Super Robot Wars and CLAMP are tropes for Code Geass
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wrm5
10:09:28 AM 20th May 2015
edited by wrm5
No.

Super Robot Wars is not a trope. The actual trope would be something like Shout-Out or Homage or Expy and it should be listed there.

EDIT: It looks like in this case the proper trope would be Spinoff.
SolipSchism
10:10:35 AM 20th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
Definitely not. And the confusing context makes it impossible for me to understand what it's actually saying, even though I've seen Geass. I would just nuke it.

^ It's none of those tropes in this case—the example looks like it's saying something from Geass debuted in Super Robot Wars, but I'm not sure.
wrm5
10:13:49 AM 20th May 2015
edited by wrm5
Yeah, like I said in my edit it looks like in this case it's probably Spinoff.

...or something. Honestly, the example is so vague it's hard to tell. Could someone who knows more about this anime help out?
SolipSchism
10:17:34 AM 20th May 2015
^ I know all about the anime. Unfortunately, I don't know the first thing about Super Robot Wars, so I can't help ya there.
wrm5
10:20:08 AM 20th May 2015
Ah.

Also, CLAMP should not be used this way either. I mean, we don't list George Lucas as a trope on Star Wars, do we? :p
SolipSchism
11:04:27 AM 20th May 2015
^ Correct. I overlooked that OP mentioned two such links—both are wrong for the same very simple reason: They are Not a Trope.
MegaMarioMan
11:36:15 AM 20th May 2015
So on that note, should Vocaloid be taken off of Nico Nico Douga?
Fighteer
11:50:10 AM 20th May 2015
Yes.
MegaMarioMan
11:53:41 AM 20th May 2015
Chopped.

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Larkmarn
Medium: Videogame
10:26:43 AM 20th May 2015
ComanderX might need a talking to.

On the Creator.Nintendo he edit warred to repeatedly remove what seems to be accurate information. I've since taken that to discussion and I think it's resolved.

But he's got serious grammar issues. Going through his history, almost every edit of substance is riddled with errors.

Like here. And here. And here. Not to mention his posts in the Nintendo discussion page as well.
see/hide 2 replies  
Fighteer
09:48:33 AM 20th May 2015
Dealt with.
Larkmarn
10:26:43 AM 20th May 2015
Thanks. Just grammar, or just the edit warring, I wouldn't bother with ATT, but the combination of the two made me think it's worth pointing out.

... not a good sign when someone's username is misspelled.

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harryhenry
Medium:
09:52:24 AM 20th May 2015
brb1006 has problems with grammar and spelling, especially with their edits on Disney and Pixar and The Aristocats. PM?
see/hide 3 replies  
harryhenry
08:23:16 AM 20th May 2015
Bump.
Fighteer
09:45:43 AM 20th May 2015
Did you send a notifier?
SolipSchism
09:52:24 AM 20th May 2015
^^^ Er, is that a question? Yes. PM them.

It's only really worth reporting if:
  • The problem persists after a PM or two have been sent
  • They respond to the PM with snark
  • The problem itself is too widespread for an easy fix (like if they have a lot of bad edits and multiple tropers' help is needed)

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bwburke94
Medium:
08:16:15 AM 20th May 2015
So do we actually have a policy on acceptable custom titles, or are we just making it up as we go along?

After the Twilight: Los Angeles incident about a year ago, I'd think we'd at least have a policy page detailing how to use custom titles, but I can't find it anywhere. (No, The Ptitle Replacement System doesn't count.)
see/hide 5 replies  
Fighteer
01:29:02 PM 18th May 2015
edited by Fighteer
How to Make a Custom Title is the how-to page. It's simple: you use it to alter punctuation, spacing, numerals, or diacritics. Nothing else.
bwburke94
02:25:32 PM 19th May 2015
To clarify, am I right in saying the "numerals" portion of this rule is not to be interpreted to cover Roman numerals because they're already interpreted as a single word when wikiworded?

For example, FinalFantasyVII should not need to be custom titled, nor should KingdomHeartsI.
SolipSchism
03:36:09 PM 19th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
I'd say that's fair, in general.

For one like Kingdom Hearts, I would actually say custom titling it to display as "Kingdom Hearts" would be appropriate because (A) we don't want it to have the same link as the overall series, so "Kingdom Hearts I" keeps it on its own link, but (B) "Kingdom Hearts I" is not actually the title of the game, so custom titling it "Kingdom Hearts" would fix that. And doing so would only be altering the numeral.

That's my interpretation of the rule, anyway.

But yeah, I don't think custom titling FFVII, or any work where the roman numeral is actually part of the title, should be necessary.
bwburke94
01:04:24 AM 20th May 2015
I am against custom titling pages of retronymed works, because it causes the page title to not match the URL. For technical reasons, this also makes it impossible for a VideoGame/KingdomHeartsI wick to actually display as "Kingdom Hearts I", which is necessary when referring to multiple games in the franchise in certain cases.
SolipSchism
08:16:15 AM 20th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
I'm down with wanting pages to match the link whenever possible, but the fact is that "Kingdom Hearts" is the official name of the first game. I should know, I have it sitting on my shelf and I'm looking at it right now. The box does not say "Kingdom Hearts I".

You do not need the link to display the "I" to refer to multiple games. I can say "The first two games in the Assassin's Creed series are Assassin's Creed and Assassins Creed II" and it makes perfect sense and links to three different pages.

EDIT: Well, it would have made perfect sense if I'd formatted it right. Fixed.

close replies  

GeneralSpecific
Medium:
08:10:31 AM 20th May 2015
Could someone explain Not Quite the Right Thing to me? The description's kind of sketchy and most of the examples look like they'd be better off on Senseless Sacrifice or Nice Job Breaking It, Hero.

On an unrelated note, is there a minimum number of examples an article has to have before it can be launched? Misplaced Bubbles has been around for years but only has four examples.
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JapaneseTeeth
06:38:30 AM 20th May 2015
1. Best I can understand it, Not Quite the Right Thing is a situation where a character did something that they think is the correct course of action from the information they have, only for other factors they weren't aware of to make their choice wrong.

2. I believe that the requirements for a trope page to be viable is having a good definition and at least three valid examples.
SolipSchism
08:10:31 AM 20th May 2015
We've had a lot of discussion about it due to some slightly ambiguous wording in the relevant Administrivia pages, but my interpretation is that one should start a YKTTW with a minimum of three examples, though that's not a hard requirement; I usually only have two unless I've previously run it through LAF to collect examples beforehand.

Personally I would never hat a YKTTW that only has three examples. If we can only find three examples in all the vast store of knowledge and history that is fiction, it is far Too Rare to Trope.

However, others have interpreted the rule as saying that you should have three examples to launch.

close replies  

RallyBot2
Medium:
07:49:54 AM 20th May 2015
Custom title for ZeroHour was changed to "Zero Hour!" because of the film, but it screwed up references to the comic book. This has happened before.
see/hide 11 replies  
Zyffyr
07:17:46 PM 18th May 2015
One of the two is going to be wrong. Given the current state of the codebase there is nothing to do and no real reason to be reporting it.
SeptimusHeap
10:49:46 PM 18th May 2015
Removed the custom title.
SetsunasaNiWa
09:48:25 AM 19th May 2015
edited by SetsunasaNiWa
There being nothing to do is not the case. From the glance across, the film, the series and the comic book are unrelated media. They can be split into separate pages (with a disambig left in Main.Zero Hour).

Move comic book to ComicBook.Zero Hour Comic Book page and give it a custom title of "Zero Hour". Move the film to Film.Zero Hour Film and give it a custom title of "Zero Hour!"

Whether it's worth the trouble (I didn't check wick numbers) is one thing. It's just that "nothing to do" is an overstatement.
SolipSchism
10:09:36 AM 19th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
^ Not an appropriate use of custom titles (Fighteer just addressed this a little down the page, and he was completely unambiguous about it: Custom titles are to be used to "alter punctuation, spacing, numerals, or diacritics. Nothing else").

I don't really think someone is going to see a wick to the film that lacks the exclamation mark and go "Good heavens, that can't be right, there's no exclamation mark!" It's best to just leave it off until and unless the site overhaul makes this a non-issue.
SetsunasaNiWa
11:04:25 AM 19th May 2015
edited by SetsunasaNiWa
^ Scholastic approach, eh? And what if Fighteer doesn't confirm having have been that much encompassive when typing out that reply?
Fighteer
11:12:06 AM 19th May 2015
edited by Fighteer
I do confirm. If we do a hard split like that, then the custom titles should be "Zero Hour (Comic Book)" and "Zero Hour! (Film)".
bwburke94
02:19:27 PM 19th May 2015
^ Said hard split is explicitly against wiki policy.
SolipSchism
03:40:20 PM 19th May 2015
^ Can you link to something showing that? I'm not contesting it, but seeing the source would make it indisputable.
NemuruMaeNi
11:43:15 PM 19th May 2015
edited by NemuruMaeNi
^^ Administrivia.How To Split A Page > Hard split section?
bwburke94
01:01:30 AM 20th May 2015
^ Only intended for subpages.
NemuruMaeNi
07:49:54 AM 20th May 2015
Punctuation conflict is still a conflict of names. Should only the film be split away from this convergence, why would it be explicitly against wiki policy? (if it would)

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Ramona122003
Medium: Anime
07:23:31 AM 20th May 2015
Hello,

I ran into this a couple of times and I wanted to know the site's official policy on this subject.

I know the official English spelling is just as viable as the Japanese spelling of a character's name and which one that is use is left up to the troper's preference. So, what do you do when someone goes on a purity edit, namely changing all the names on a page from the English spelling to the Japanese ones? The first couple of times this happened, I just PM the person who did it and told them that it was rude since the English spelling was just as viable as the Japanese and they had no right making such blanking changes. Recently, I changed the page back to its original form because someone went as far as changing the episodes titles to the Japanese titles, which I thought was going way too far.

For future dealings on this subject, how should I react? Should I just give P Ms like I have been doing or should I change the page back if it goes really too far?
see/hide 8 replies  
sgamer82
11:04:50 PM 19th May 2015
I know that with show titles, official English trumps Japanese (in fact doing that is a personal side project of mine). I assume the same applies to characters as well, though there can be tricky cases of Spell My Name with an "S" that occur, especially if different mediums use different spellings (quick example would be a One Piece character whose name is either Roronoa Zoro (English anime) vs Roronoa Zolo (English manga)
Karxrida
11:13:22 PM 19th May 2015
edited by Karxrida
Revert the changes and report them for going against wiki policy. The Japanese names can only be used if the work doesn't have an official English translation or the episode/character is going to appear later but hasn't had the official English name revealed/finalized.

Ramona122003
11:45:55 PM 19th May 2015
Really. I thought it was preference.

Thing is, the official anime and the manga use two different spellings. The manga use spellings closer to the Japanese, while the English uses something different, like the above mention Zoro vs. Zolo or Freeza vs Frieza.

If is a case of Spell My Name with an "S" what should I do?
bwburke94
12:59:54 AM 20th May 2015
With Zoro vs. Zolo, we have two official English names, but Zoro is the preferred name for the character.

Freeza vs. Frieza is a bit harder to deal with, but both names have at least some acceptance here. Just don't use "Furiza" or you'll be stuffed into a freezer.
Ramona122003
05:33:46 AM 20th May 2015
What I mean, what should I I do if a troper gets the idea to change every spelling of Frieza into Freeza on a page for example? It has happened more than a couple of times. Up to this point, I just message the person, but left the changes in place.
Adept
05:59:12 AM 20th May 2015
^ I don't really think there's a point to change the spellings if both are official. Just like you don't go Americanizing of Britishising certain English spellings in a page, even if they aren't consistent.
muddycurve424
06:15:51 AM 20th May 2015
edited by muddycurve424
^ There should be consistency within the page itself though, otherwise it's confusing. It should also carry on into any subpages. So for instance if a character's name is spelled "Sean" on a work page, it must be carried over into the character subpage as "Sean" and not "Shawn".
Ramona122003
07:23:31 AM 20th May 2015
On the character sheets all the official spellings are shown so I see no reason to enforce one particularly spelling. I just don't like when someone decides to edit a page solely to change everything to make it more 'pure'.

I think will continue to message and report if the person does it again. I am just not sure if I should edit their changes.

close replies  

CrazyYanmega
Medium: Anime
06:12:43 AM 20th May 2015
I'm trying to put in a quote on the Rin-ne Character sheet page, but I just can't figure out how to format it. I've tried reading the formatting rules, but I just can't get it to look right. If someone could help, that would be great. The quote is under "Failure is the Only Option" in Rinne's folder.
see/hide 2 replies  
NemuruMaeNi
11:35:00 PM 19th May 2015
Formatted it. That's Not an Example though. Revise your troping practice, as you may get suspended for misuse of tropes. Administrivia.Zero Context Example can bite you too.
GnomeTitan
06:12:43 AM 20th May 2015
Tropers don't normally get suspended just for misuse of tropes or posting ZCEs. Normally somebody will message them about it first. Suspension is used by the mods as a way of getting the attention of people who ignore repeated messages about such things.

close replies  

MagBas
Medium:
06:05:17 AM 20th May 2015
see/hide 26 replies  
MattStriker
03:02:06 PM 17th May 2015
...

Yeah, after having been suspended for Elsa-related incidents two months ago. At least he's not trying to add Big Bad this time...
TheNerfGuy
03:40:36 PM 17th May 2015
Wasn't it established that Elsa didn't fit any of the standard villain tropes like Big Bad or Anti-Villain?
Ramona122003
04:48:01 PM 17th May 2015
I am more confused by his addition The Dragon. Who is the dragon to Queen Elsa, it doesn't say. I suppose he means Marshmallow. That should be erase for zero context.

And seriously, I saw the movie Elsa is not a villain or Anti-villain. She does cause the plot of the movie, but it was by complete accident and she left to protect everyone from her powers. Did everyone ignore the complete breakdown she has when she learns she caused an endless winter?
MorningStar1337
01:00:41 AM 18th May 2015
edited by MorningStar1337
Should I edit the hidden warning to include Elsa? I know that it says not to add everyone, but I think an "Especially Elsa" addendum would be appropriate
Fighteer
06:20:14 AM 18th May 2015
Suspended again, and oh my Hera we have an enormous character section for the freaking giant snowman? What is wrong with people?
crazysamaritan
06:39:16 AM 18th May 2015
If they are legitimate examples, having a large section does not seem uncalled for.
MrDeath
07:38:19 AM 18th May 2015
A lot of them flat out misrepresent the thing's role in the movie or are just shoehorning. Like The Usurper, or Upgrade vs. Prototype Fight (He and Olaf don't "fight" at all). Reading that trope list, it's like someone had a whole other movie going on in their head when they wrote it.
SolipSchism
12:57:44 PM 18th May 2015
This seriously needs to be a "No more discussion" issue. Like, any sentence that includes the word "Elsa" and any term including "Big Bad" or "Villain" in any context needs to be an insta-warning on par with other controversies that shall not be named. I think we're all tired of the matter and it has long since been settled many times. Every time it comes up people (case in point, ^here and ^^^^^here) feel the need to explain why she's not, which is just as annoying as the people insisting that she is. Can we just document the wiki's stance somewhere invisible (like a commented out note) and stop talking about it, and just ping someone when they screw up, and link them to the comment?

I'm not trying to call out those two posters above because they're just echoing the correct answer, but this is like explaining why works don't go in the main namespace. I shouldn't have to explain why they do, they just do, and if someone wants to know why, we have pages explaining it that I can just link you to.

tl;dr this is an issue where it should suffice to just state the fact. Elsa is not any kind of villain or bad guy. If you have an issue with it, take it off the wiki; we're no longer interested in explaining it for the umptieth time.
wrm5
01:12:47 PM 18th May 2015
^ No, because that's not how humanity works.

I don't know about you, but when I see a note saying "this is what has been decided and any further discussion is grounds for punishment" I don't just say to myself "oh, I suppose my betters have decided for me, so nevermind."

And frankly, screw you if you want me to say that. :p

I know it's annoying to have this same discussion over and over and over. But you know what would be EVEN MORE annoying? A wiki where no one has any opinions or ideas of their own, and just marches along to the hivemind without ever knowing why except "because doing otherwise gets you insta-perma-banned". We Are Not Wikipedia, after all. Unexplained mandates given from on high are THEIR thing.

Now, what I would find acceptable is to write down all of our reasonings somewhere - say, here - and put a link to that into the note, so that people who don't understand WHY Elsa isn't a villain can go there to find out.
SolipSchism
01:18:14 PM 18th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
^ There has to be a limit about how many times we're willing to say "No, that is not an opinion, that is a falsehood based on misinformation and misunderstanding the source material, and we are tired of explaining this over and over and over." (And for the record, I have not seen the film, and do not understand or care about the reasoning; I am not biased in favor of one "opinion" or another, I am just sick of the conversation. And it seems pretty obvious that "Elsa is not a bad guy" is a fact and not an opinion, ocnsidering that every time it comes up we reach the exact same conclusion using the exact same reasoning.

I'm not talking about insta-banning people for it, I'm saying that when it comes up, we have a stock response that we point to and move on with our lives.

I compared it to Gamer Gate for a reason: It is problematic and leads to stupid, pointless, repetitive discussions that do not need to happen because they have already happened over and over again.
Fighteer
01:30:12 PM 18th May 2015
How many tropers have we had to tap on the shoulder for misrepresenting Frozen in this way? If it's only one person, then this is really blown out of proportion.
SolipSchism
01:36:42 PM 18th May 2015
I don't know about shoulder-taps, I'm just tired of seeing the issue come up all the time. I can't possibly be the only one. (But if I am, then I'll back off; it just seems like I see this issue come up either here or in the forums once a week at least, and it's not even the same issue, it's the same conversation every time.)
wrm5
01:37:26 PM 18th May 2015
And at this point we're kind of just getting into a problem of logistics. There's so many people out there that even if you explain to 1,000 people why Elsa isn't a villain, or why Gamergate isn't to be mentioned, or why we hate...that guy we don't talk about, there's still 7,499,999,000 more people who haven't seen that response.

And we kinda have to make a choice... we can just make it an unmentionable where you get a warning to shutup or else whenever it comes up, but then we tick people off and make them not want to visit the site anymore. Or we can humor people every time they want to argue it, but then we end up spending all our time on that and never get anything else done.

I think the idea of a "stock response" is a good idea, though, as long as said stock response includes an actual explanation of WHY, and not just "this is our decision."

Alternately - and I'm just gonna throw this out here and you can take it or leave it - but just hypothetically, if we were to kill off, say, 93% of Earth's human population, this problem would be greatly diminished.
Candi
02:01:12 PM 18th May 2015
Elsa has one issue that neither the Nameless Gate or Nameless One have -she's part of a fictional work. So the constant 'she's based on the Snow Queen = bad' misunderstanding isn't something that can just be booted, as with the other two.

Any stock reply could point to or mention the (several) articles where the scriptwriters and directors and all mention that while Elsa was originally intended to be a villain, they realized how lonely she must have been all her life, and decided to write the story from her being misunderstood and feared, not evil.
SolipSchism
02:05:51 PM 18th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
^ That's completely fair, on both counts. I definitely didn't mean to give the impression that we make mentioning Elsa as a bad guy a bannable offense; that's kind of crazy, and I can see how I might have given that impression. That's not what I intended, though.

^^ Re: including an explanation of why, that is precisely what I had in mind. Something like "Here is the community's stance: [Stance]. Here is why we have that stance: [Reasons]. Here is why we're tired of talking about it: It comes up on a regular basis and the same reasons get rehashed on both sides and we always come to the same conclusion. The issue is no longer up for discussion. If you add such an example, 9it will be removed and you will be directed to read this comment. If you are reading this comment as a result of such an edit, know that that is not okay. We appreciate your enthusiasm but respectfully ask you not to do that again. Thank you, have a nice day."

Also down for the 93% eradication idea.

(I'm not remotely suggesting that we create an entire page just for this, but, like, a commented out note on the Frozen article or something would work.)
Fighteer
02:16:54 PM 18th May 2015
I did the thing with the note. There already was one, but I expanded it.
GnomeTitan
02:54:06 PM 18th May 2015
edited by GnomeTitan
Now the note says "Elsa is an anti-villain", and I'm confused.

Wasn't a troper just suspended for making Elsa an example of Anti-Villain?

Edited: Fighteer, did you mean "Elsa is an anti-hero", as you write in the suspension appeal thread?

Fighteer
03:30:34 PM 18th May 2015
Werps!
SolipSchism
04:13:32 PM 18th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
^^ Hehehehehe. Okay, that made me giggle.

For good measure, I took those comments on the Characters/ page and pasted them over onto the Disney/ page as well; hope that's okay.
Rotpar
10:57:31 PM 18th May 2015
edited by Rotpar
Since people sometimes fail to read the big "LOOK AT ME FIRST" notes at the top of the page, should we treat these non-examples like Zero Context Examples—in the list, commented out, and with a final warning?:

"% % * Big Bad: Elsa is not an example, she is the Anti-Hero, do not un-comment this"?

It'll be invisible to the readers...and just maybe the hopelessly oblivious editor will get the point if the warning was right where the bad example was going?
MrL1193
12:37:01 AM 19th May 2015
^I actually have resorted to doing this before. It's not the greatest thing for organization, but it does seem to work better for grabbing the attention of clueless tropers.

(Personally, I still hope that we'll get a better solution for problems like these whenever we get that database overhaul some years down the road.)
GnomeTitan
03:39:41 AM 19th May 2015
I've done that sometimes when different people repeatedly keep adding trivia tropes about actors to character pages: instead of just deleting the entry (that already exists on the trivia page) I comment it out with a note saying that it belongs on the trivia page.
wrm5
08:12:55 AM 19th May 2015
^^^ That sounds like a really good idea.
Candi
06:13:04 PM 19th May 2015
For those repetitive issues where the matter has been settled twice over, yet still keeps occurring, it makes perfect sense.
mlsmithca
09:08:56 PM 19th May 2015
edited by mlsmithca
It's the approach I usually take if I find a particular trope has been put on the wrong page (or the trope in question doesn't get examples outside Sugar Wiki or Darth Wiki) by more than one editor; just something to the effect of "Do not add [Trope Name]; it is for in-universe examples only/Sugar Wiki only/Darth Wiki only/whatever else". I recommend putting commented out blank lines above and below the note to make it more visible to editors, so something like

%%
%% Do not add examples of [Trope X], please. [Explanation]
%%

should catch editors' attention.

(Doesn't always work, though. I remember adding such a note to a YMMV page for some work or another instructing editors not to add examples of And the Fandom Rejoiced after multiple editors had done so. Some time later, someone added an example immediately below the commented out note saying not to add them...)
Candi
06:05:17 AM 20th May 2015
Some people just don't read. It's been months and months, but I still remember finding a beautiful entry for the Mahabharata in a Religion and Mythology folder -and a completely crappy entry right below it. Bonus points for them being the only two entries in the folder at the time. (I just nuked the crappy entry.)

close replies  

Ngamer01
Medium: Videogame
09:18:54 PM 19th May 2015
I just need a reminder, but Useful Notes don't get audience reaction sub-pages right?

Virtual Boy has been edited to add more material to it. Do I re-blank the page and add an commented out note saying Useful Notes don't get Audience Reactions? Or do I just add it to the Cut List?
see/hide 1 replies  
Gideoncrawle
09:18:54 PM 19th May 2015
Cutlist them. Only work pages get those subpage types.

close replies  

AegisP
Medium:
03:45:31 PM 19th May 2015
edited by SeptimusHeap
There are some attempts to turn Bowdlerise into a complaining about localizations you dont like. It now includes stuff like Americanization on its main page when that has nothing to do with Censorship.

Also some examples are too biased and are even wrong (The famous "Tellah Swears at Edward"). The page needs some major clean up.
see/hide 9 replies  
Century
01:30:24 AM 9th May 2015
Which page now?
bwburke94
08:32:14 PM 10th May 2015
^ Bowdlerise

^^ "You spoony bard" is indeed a Bowdlerism, despite being both accurate and memetic. A specific change can be both a Bowdlerism and Woolseyism.
AegisP
10:21:05 PM 10th May 2015
Yeah, I even mentioned Mr Century.

No. Its not. It's not a Bowdlerism and its not accurate, Dialogue He didnt even insult him at all in the Original Japanese. People are mislead by the GBA,PSX and that Fan Translation. There is a guy online who translated the dialogue as is, without alteration. You can find him here.

http://legendsoflocalization.com/final-fantasy-iv/damcyan/

Read and weep. He didnt even insult him or even describe him. There's no accuracy nor it is an example of Bowdlerisation. Misblamed maybe, not Bowdlerisation. He didnt even use any tame swearing like Crap!

I do have even more issues with that page, not just that on (And its sub pages for that matter.) Like putting the Americanization trope on the list. This isnt the complain about Localizations you dont like. Its about censorship to make the work more appealing to general audiences. You might say that the Americanization does fit "Making it more appealing for general audiences" but then you dilute the trope. It might even lead to extreme Trope Decay.

Also, most of the examples are extremely whiny and biased. Lets try to make them more factual and objective.
bwburke94
03:28:38 PM 11th May 2015
^ I actually checked Mato's site before I replied to you. While I admit that Japanese Tellah didn't use any cuss words, he did say something that in context was a death threat.
AegisP
06:37:55 PM 11th May 2015
edited by AegisP
Oh! That's true. But many people still believe its swearing. If possible could you correct the entry to "He didnt swear, he threatened to kill him instead.There is no insult that is equivalent to Spoony Bard in Japanese."

Let me check...

FAKE EDIT: No, there is no such death threat either. And if it there is it is not on the Spoony Bard Scene. Im sorry but please dont make stuff up.

EDIT: On second reading this post is extremely rude and condescending. But you have to understand. The wiki is utterly drenched in this silly rumor. No one seems inclined to believe that its wrong, and it seemed like you just about refused to believe plain text. I apologize for the way I treated you.

AegisP
06:44:34 PM 18th May 2015
Bump. Im sorry for bumping this. This will be the last time I do this.
SolipSchism
09:35:41 AM 19th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
You might get more responses if you were more approachable. (And before I get accused of making nonspecific accusations: "Read and weep" as if you are actually in opposition to another troper rather than having a conversation, using exclamation marks, "FAKE EDIT", "please dont make stuff up", and less than stellar grammar throughout to top it all off.)

Here's what you can do to make your point: Be clear and concise. Witty is an optional perk. As a general rule, if you try to be witty without being clear and concise, you'll probably come across either as (A) confusing and incomprehensible, or (B) sarcastic and abrasive, even if it wasn't intended that way.

State your point: "Tellah does not swear at, or threaten, Edward."

Cite a source. A reputable source would be ideal. Include a quote. Saying "Tellah didn't say X" is all well and good, but without saying what the line actually is, you give the awkward impression that we just don't know what he said—but it wasn't X. Obviously that's not the case. What did he actually say?

Who is claiming that that's the exact, literal, actual translation? Why should I accept their translation over an official one? You've posted a link but it's a single scene; it should not be hard for you to post the actual lines.

bwburke94, it'd help if you mentioned exactly what that "something that in context was a death threat" was.

Finally: Aegis P, please chill out. Nobody here is out to get you, or FFIV, or Tellah or whoever. Whether or not TV Tropes agrees with you on whether a particular game was translated accurately or whatever is not tantamount to the spirit of TV Tropes incarnate appearing and saying "I don't like you." It's just a video game translation.
AegisP
12:21:09 PM 19th May 2015
edited by AegisP
Ok Im really sorry. I was really mean, I should have said my arguments more politely.

I actually dont mind about Final Fantasy 4, what I dont like is that it seems like people allow innacurate stuff on the pages. It really irritates me, but its no excuse to treat people like crap. Im sorry about that.

And I would post if TV Tropes didnt make it so hard. I would have post it but I dont know how to make it in a readable format. Also Im sorry for the horrible grammar.
SolipSchism
03:45:31 PM 19th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
We don't like factually inaccurate stuff, but I don't recommend assuming that the information is outright fabricated; remember Hanlon's Razor and have mercy on the idiots who make mistakes. It's more likely that someone, somewhere, posted something wrong and everyone else just took it at face value without questioning it. (Of course, the intent is not really relevant to the information itself—if it's flat-out wrong, it should be removed. However, if there's any doubt, some evidence to support the removal is helpful.)

I'd visit your link and post a quote myself but I can't visit external links at work, which is why I'm usually the guy to complain about links (and which is also why I'm unable to really have an opinion about the translation you linked—I just can't see it).

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emeriin
Medium:
03:42:52 PM 19th May 2015
Edit War over at this page. Ragitsu seems to be the one with the agenda (ironically).
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SeptimusHeap
03:23:14 PM 19th May 2015
Agenda or no, that removal reason is questionable. PM'ing both Nano Moose and pulling the entry to discussion.
NanoMoose
03:42:52 PM 19th May 2015
edited by NanoMoose
Sorry. Should have just cited the edit war and kicked the example down here myself. Teach me to edit while coming down from an adrenaline high.

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MegaMarioMan
Medium:
09:25:14 AM 19th May 2015
edited by MegaMarioMan
I just looked at the Laconic.Pixel Hunt page, and the Super Secret Spoiler is bright white, having been designed for the formerly-only-white-colored wiki. Naturally, like other things I've said here, using Night Vision ruins the gag, because the Super Secret Spoiler isn't any of those things anymore.
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bwburke94
10:55:58 AM 14th May 2015
We're not altering the wiki to cover night-vision users, except for white-background images to transparent-background in some cases. It's too much work for a feature most users don't even use.
MegaMarioMan
06:05:49 AM 18th May 2015
Will the "external link text behind spoiler tags are white in Night Vision" thing be fixed?
SolipSchism
01:00:23 PM 18th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
^ Can you link to a page where an example of that is posted? I'm having trouble figuring out what you mean. But if what you're describing is "text that is clearly visible in spoiler tags", it probably needs to be fixed, because it would make spoiler tags completely pointless even outside of niche cases like clever little jokes and transparent pictures.
bwburke94
01:18:22 PM 18th May 2015
^^ We technically don't "allow" links in spoiler tags for that reason.
MegaMarioMan
07:30:16 AM 19th May 2015
edited by MegaMarioMan
^^ Square Root of Minus Garfield under Bait and Switch.

It Makes Sense in Context under Tycho's quote about new dresses and The Angry Video Game Nerd on "Shooting ducks with a piano."
SolipSchism
09:25:14 AM 19th May 2015
^ Ooh, yeah, that's bad. Enabling night vision makes spoilered links look exactly like regular text except with a dotted line around it.

^^ bwburke is right about that to the best of my knowledge—we don't encourage spoilered links because (A) they've always been slightly visible under spoilers, although this is completely indistinguishable from regular text, and (B) hovering over them shows you exactly what the link is, so it kind of sort of negates the point of spoilers.

That said... activating night vision completely negates the point of spoilers if there's a link in it. Might be worth a fix in that case.

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calmestofdoves
Medium:
09:11:59 AM 19th May 2015
edited by calmestofdoves
There are two "better name" tags on the Hyped To Death YKTTW. Neither of them need to be there, as the general consensus is that Hyped To Death is a strong name - especially compared to the original working title, which was What Didn't Happen to Stannis. I've been told that tags can only get taken off YKTTWs by mods and that a mod can be reached by posting here. Hopefully that information was accurate!
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SeptimusHeap
09:11:59 AM 19th May 2015
Fatto.

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Werebazs
Medium:
11:57:43 PM 18th May 2015
Should the Bechdel Test be listed on a works page, on the grounds that the work passes it? My understanding was that it should only be listed, if it is discussed or used in-universe, for example if two characters are discussing whether the Show Within a Show passes it or not.
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Larkmarn
12:55:18 PM 13th May 2015
Correct.
SolipSchism
01:03:23 PM 13th May 2015
Useful Notes pages are never tropes, whether they're In-Universe or not.

Just mentioning that the work passes the Bechdel Test is trivia, and could be listed there.

Charcaters discussing it in the work... I'm not sure if there's an appropriate place to note that, but it's not a trope. That would be like listing UsefulNotes.Yanks With Tanks on a trope list because two characters have a conversation about the US Military.
Werebazs
01:07:24 PM 13th May 2015
Thanks. I asked because I've already removed it once from Star Wars: Princess Leia a few weeks ago, and it was readded today. Thought I'd make sure before removing it again. I guess I'll move it to the trivia page now.
SolipSchism
01:12:05 PM 13th May 2015
Yeah, that's definite misuse. It looks like it was two separate people adding it, though, which means it's plausible they just didn't know. Feel free to revert away in that case. If the same person re-adds it, though, don't engage, just report it here, because that's an Edit War.

You could also consider PMing those two tropers politely, just to make sure they know the Bechdel Test is Useful Notes, and Useful Notes pages are not tropes, so that they're not making the same mistake on other pages. But that's up to you.
Lythande
03:14:32 PM 13th May 2015
I don't know if it's correct to do, but could you comment out a Bechdel Test entry and then a comment explaining that it doesn't belong there and why? Then at least if another person comes to add it they'll have something telling them not to.
SolipSchism
03:23:02 PM 13th May 2015
^ I think it'd be more appropriate to put it at the top, but I don't know if it's a common enough issue to be worth doing that.

I'd actually suggest doing something like what we do for Trivia and YMMV items. When they are added to a trope list, the bullet automagically displays a special icon that clearly says "Hey, you fucked up, move this to where it really belongs" and also lets future editors know, if the original editor didn't check their work, "Hey, somebody fucked up, could you please get this crap off the page"

Because our administrative magic system is very snarky like that. :p
sgamer82
09:33:23 PM 13th May 2015
Does the same rule apply to Recap pages? A while back there was a case where it was on every recap page for Supernatural episodes, which is definite misuse.

But recently I noted it in a My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic recap page for "Simple Ways". I didn't think anything of it at the time since it's there because that episode is one of the few times the show fails the test, making it notable enough to note. Given the above, should the entry be removed? Can/should a recap page have a Trivia section at all? I'd say no but never hurts to ask.
Candi
10:41:54 PM 13th May 2015
It should at least be moved to the main trivia page (if not there already), with the transplanted entry specifying which ep is referred to.

I've only seen individual subpages for recap pages when the amount of data is overwhelming for a main work subpage.
SolipSchism
09:53:36 AM 14th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
^^ Yes to every question. If they're just saying "It passes the Bechdel Test" it can be trivia.

As far as I know, Recap pages are to be treated just like work pages with some minor exceptions:
  • No mention of plot points from later episodes, anywhere on the page. That includes inside spoiler tags. Do not do it.
  • No spoiler-tagging of plot points from previous episodes. If they're reading this page, assume they've seen everything up to this episode; Spoilers Off for every prior episode.
  • The description should briefly sum up the plot. It does not need to be a play-by-play of every scene in the episode.

I think that's about it for rules that are specific to recap pages. Otherwise you just treat it like any other work page. Objective tropes only; it can have subpages for the other stuff. But again, those subpages follow the same rule as everything else; don't create a Fridge subpage if you only have two Fridge entries, they will fit just fine on the YMMV page.
SetsunasaNiWa
10:35:18 AM 14th May 2015
Did SolipSchism just tell other troper to list Useful Notes item on Trivia tab there? :/
Fighteer
11:07:11 AM 14th May 2015
edited by Fighteer
The Bechdel Test is not Trivia either, as noted.
SolipSchism
11:13:49 AM 14th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
I am not saying the Bechdel Test is a trivia item. If it was, it would be in the Main/ namespace and indexed under Trivia.

However, Trivia itself explicitly states that "trivia" is just Real Life fun facts that you wouldn't know from just reading/watching/playing the work. It doesn't have to be something that we have a Trivia page for.

Thus, an entry along the lines of "* This work passes the Bechdel Test due to Scene X, in which Alice and Brenda go shopping and have a super fabulous afternoon buying shoes and the subject of boys never once comes up" would be a perfectly legitimate trivia example.

No offense or disrespect, but I feel like you guys either need to read our page on Trivia or start a conversation about redefining it, because as it stands, trivia is a very broad concept and I keep seeing people try to make it narrower than it is.

EDIT: An exact quote: "You can also add Trivia items that don't fit any category or premade page as long as it is legitimately trivia, and not a trope or an Audience Reaction."

I'd say passing an arbitrary test that most people have never heard of and which only even says anything meaningful when applying it to a wide sample of works is pretty trivia-worthy when it comes to individual works.
Fighteer
11:25:31 AM 14th May 2015
edited by Fighteer
That is more or less correct. We would prefer to be somewhat stricter with Trivia than the site is in practice, just to avoid becoming IMDB, but enforcing such a rule would involve some fairly arbitrary judgment calls as to what is and is not allowed.
SolipSchism
11:29:46 AM 14th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
Fair enough. "Actress X is actually a blonde and died her hair black for this role" is probably far too trivial for TVT. But considering that we saw fit to create a very in-depth Useful Notes page for The Bechdel Test, personally I think a mention that X work passes the test is worth noting as trivia.

Noting that a work fails the test might not be. I mean, apparently something like 90-billion percent of all works fail it, so that wuold be like making trivia entries that point out that the work is composed in a living language (you know, as opposed to a dead one like Aramaic or Old English).

EDIT: Er, apparently dying your hair for a role is not too trivial for trivia. But I think my point was made anyway.
GnomeTitan
01:57:52 PM 14th May 2015
edited by GnomeTitan
I don't think it's a given that "Work X passes the Bechdel test" should count as trivia.

SolipSchism wrote above:

'However, Trivia itself explicitly states that "trivia" is just Real Life fun facts that you wouldn't know from just reading/watching/playing the work. It doesn't have to be something that we have a Trivia page for.

Thus, an entry along the lines of "* This work passes the Bechdel Test due to Scene X, in which Alice and Brenda go shopping and have a super fabulous afternoon buying shoes and the subject of boys never once comes up" would be a perfectly legitimate trivia example. '

These two paragraphs actually contradict each other. As the second example shows, the Bechdel test applies only to what happens in the show and not only doesn't require any real-life knowledge that you can't learn just from watching the show, but it should ignore it (things like author intent and statements made in interviews aren't taken into account). "Alice and Brenda have a scene where they..." is not trivia, it's just an observation about the show.

(To be extra nitpicky, the example above could actually fail the Bechdel test, if Alice and Brenda don't talk to each other for the whole day, as unlikely as that may be. The Bechdel test requires that the two women actually talk to each other).

EDITED: OK, you may mean that the act of applying the Bechdel test happens outside the show, thus its outcome is trivia. But I don't think saying "Work X passes the Bechdel test" is different from saying "Work X contains an example of a Five-Man Band" which is most definitely not trivia.

EDITED: I'm not opposed to putting the Bechdel test on the trivia page, I just think it's a bit in the grey zone and doesn't quite fit our definition of trivia (again, the Bechdel test does not rely on anything but what happens in the work)

crazysamaritan
07:41:45 PM 14th May 2015
I have a proposal that might work, but proposing a policy change is for Wiki Talk, not ATT.
SolipSchism
10:10:48 AM 15th May 2015
^^ You're mostly correct, except that the test itself is not part of a work, as you noted in your edit, but I think you drew the wrong conclusion from that. If I just wrote an example that explained how it passes the test but not actually mention the test, sure, it'd be all in the work, but it wouldn't mean anything because I'd just be stating "Two female characters have a conversation that doesn't involve men," which is... not really interesting in itself. But the existence of the Test gives the scene significance beyond the event itself, and nothing in the work tells you what the Bechdel Test is.

Saying "Work X passes the Bechdel test" is very different from "Work X contains a Five-Man Band" in one very obvious way: Five-Man Band is a trope, thus saying it is in the work is a trope, not trivia. The Bechdel Test is just a thing, so saying it is in the work is just a fact. Since our definition of trivia is very broad and very grey, it is not difficult to make a case stating that it's trivia, and to be honest I think the case for making it not trivia is shaky. Is there a clear and concise explanation as to why that would not be trivia? One that doesn't rely on weird arbitrary site-specific details like "It's a Useful Notes page and not a Trivia entry"?

The fact is that culturally, the Bechdel Test is reasonably notable; it's not just some completely unknown thing that nobody cares about. I'm not on a mission to document which works pass it, but I think it's completely harmless and, more importantly, productive to note the ones that do, as trivia.
GnomeTitan
01:42:26 PM 15th May 2015
I was basically just arguing what I saw as faulty logic in some arguments. The problem, I think, is the rather precise definition of "trivia" that we often use (including here): "facts about a work that are not internal to the work, but must be learned from outside sources".

But "trivia" in general parlance means more than that - and in that sense I have no problem with saying that "Work X passes the Bechdel test" is a kind of trivia.
SolipSchism
01:32:40 PM 18th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
That may be the definition that often gets applied here, but if you look at the actual Trivia page, that's not solely what is described there. (And in all fairness, as I've mentioned above, passing the Bechdel Test does actually fit both our apparent definition and the real-world definition.)

I mean, full disclosure, I'm of the possibly unpopular opinion that a page, examples linking to it, its description, and the definition we ascribe to it should all sync up. We should not have a page that describes Y, but use it as X and remove entries that aren't X. If the page says Y, it should be Y. And if it's actually X, well, the description should be changed to reflect X.

So unless and until we decide to change the definition of Trivia to actually reflect that you can't add anything that doesn't have a page, I do believe that passing the Bechdel Test (though not necessarily referencing it or especially failing it) should be a valid trivia item.

I see that it looks like you agree, I just want to make my reasons clear: Our definition of trivia as documented on Trivia does explicitly allow this kind of thing. If people disagree, then we should discuss rewriting that page, not just arbitrarily applying different criteria to examples.
GnomeTitan
02:58:42 PM 18th May 2015
^Just to make everything clear, people were quoting a short (almost laconic) definition of trivia, not the full definition.

And yes, I agree that in most cases "Work X passes the Bechdel test" fits better on the trivia page than on the main work page. I can imagine there could be an exception if it's truly notable that a work passes it, in which case it should of course still not be listed as a trope, but in the description. But I can't think of any such examples right now.

GoldenSeals
04:21:27 PM 18th May 2015
I think we're barking up the wrong tree with the whole "should we include this as Trivia" thing. The Bechdel Test is not designed to apply to an individual work, in spite of the fact that individual works pass or fail it. A work can easily pass with a token conversation and still be far from "feminist," and a work can fail despite having a perfectly valid reason for doing so. The point of the test is to add the results together: in aggregate, the pass rate of all works is much lower than it should be, which only tells us that writers naturally have a hard time creating female characters who aren't satellites of male ones. It's not a measure of an individual work's stance on women. And the page itself says all of this.

Therefore, I think that even if you allow Trivia mentions in general, mentioning the Bechdel Test specifically is a bad idea because the only reason to do that would be to comment on the film's stance on women, which the page says specifically not to do. It's kind of a special case which I'd liken to something like our stance on Character Alignment.
SolipSchism
04:22:56 PM 18th May 2015
edited by SolipSchism
^^I can't imagine a situation where that would be relevant, honestly; it's not intrinsic to the work, so whether it's "notable" isn't really important. But in the interest of not making myself sound like a completely confrontational jerk, I will concede that it's possible. Maybe if the creator set out deliberately to create a work that passes the test and stated as much in an interview, and that fact noticeably affected some aspect of the film, maybe then it'd be worth mentioning, but I still doubt it.

And quoting a laconic definition is fine as long as you don't use that (oversimplified and not entirely accurate) laconic as the definition by which you make judgment calls and edits.

^ You know. That's actually a good point. Although I should point out that the very definition of trivia (in the real world) includes the fact that it is "trivialities, bits of information of little consequence". So of course whether an individual work passes is not very important; no one's saying it is. We're just debating whether it belongs on the Trivia tab. I do agree that mentioning it at all for individual works is a bit misleading, though.
GnomeTitan
11:57:43 PM 18th May 2015
^I think we agree on everything except, possibly, the semantics involved in a particular argument (which is now moot). And of course it's OK to quote a laconic definition; one should just be careful in basing an argument on it.

Regarding passing the Bechdel test, I actually can't think of a concrete case where you would mention it by itself even on the trivia page: it would normally be mentioned as a supporting argument.

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katethegr8
Medium:
06:36:53 PM 18th May 2015
edited by katethegr8
(Ignore this post. I was completely incorrect and thought the edit was different based on the edit reason).
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