The fact that the plot summery is on its wiki means that it certainly is still available as a work in a way, even if the original form of it's disappeared. (ie, the story's told through the plot summery, even if we don't know what the book's actually like).

So, to me, technically, it is published, even though the original book form of it's missing.

My opinion, though. The better experts may need to chime in.

Isn't the policy that these things get moved to Darth Wiki rather than blanked?

Blanking Main pages is a no-no. Unfinished Works go in Darth Wiki if I remember right.

No, unfinished works get troped up to the amount that they were finished. Unpublished works go in Darth Wiki.

I...don't know what to say to that. Did you PM them to try and figure out what's going on?

I couldn't think of what to say to someone with that as their only edit (so far), so I came here.

Reverted and left a reason. Let's hope it sticks.

Seems like it doesn't

Bump. He changed it back to his original statement.

Right. Suspended.

You've just been introduced to why Everything's Worse with Snowclones. All of those names are using a template derived from Did You Just Punch Out Cthulhu? (which is specifically about powerful and/or godlike beings), without necessarily being that similar to it.

That said, unless a name is very obtuse we generally require proof of misuse or other actual harm done to the wiki before renaming.

For the record, the specific place for things like this is the Trope Repair Shop.

^ TRS is nearly always full, so i went here first and if the mods decide that it indeed is worth a go, then i'll put it up there.

problem here is, some of the snowclones don't actually fit the source.

which you said yourself: it's about powerful/godlike beings and how people interact/react to them.

for one, Did Mom Just Have Tea with Cthulhu? is about someone's parent hanging out with The Big Bad (which, for the record, is not automatically godlike). not some Eldritch Abomination or even a more humble Demon.

The trope image is even just a mere human. albeit a Badass Normal one.

Snowclones usually don't fit the source. That's what I was saying, and why we don't like them anymore.

Suspended. He's been on this site long enough to know how we do things.

Sounds like it was a mistake on his part.

Yes. Yes, they do.

...Wow. So...figure it's worth deciphering and fixing those entries or should we just (mercy-)kill them?

(Edit: Actually, it looks like only a few of them are as bad as the one on Shadow the Hedgehog . Most look salvageable.)

I removed it with the following edit reason:

Removed because A, there was a cry of this being Not an Example in the discussion page, and B, Weblinks Are Not Examples. (And the list's too big in order to fit here.)

Thanks.

If he adds it back, report it here.

I'm not going to delete it again as that would be Edit Warring.

Okay.

Natterfied and PM'd them.

Bump

I admit, since "Our X Are Different" isn't accurate (since it's also about the "standard" version of whatever it is,) I can't think of a justification for it being an exception. I assume there was a discussion thread where reasons were given, though.

It was discussed. Here. The names are inaccurate but they work at discouraging Zero Context Examples.

^Even so, we can't make new tropes based upon it because of the No New Stockphrases rule.

The way it's currently phrased, however, implies that the rules are clashing.

I have never heard of "Our Xes Are Different" being dialogue.

It has the word "Our", as if the work itself's saying that their Xes Are Different.

That's why I think it's a dialog-based title according to No New Stockphrases. ("[The YKTTW trope title's not allowed if] It uses a personal pronoun like "I", "me", "we", "us", "my", or "our" as if someone were referring to themselves.")

I view the "ban" on personal pronouns more as a general guideline. It's an indication that a trope name sounds like dialogue, but it's not a determinant.

Right now, I think the No New Stock Phrases article as it stands right now not only fails Clear, Concise, Witty, but also causes more trouble than it's worth.

^^I think it's like The Scrappy — it's a specific exemption from the current rules.

^If that's the case, then No New Stockphrases needs to be modified to add the exception.

To my knowledge, the mods (and Fast Eddie) actually makes sure that No New Stockphrases are enforced and that there's no exceptions.

It's there for a reason (that No New Stockphrases explains).

BTW, The Scrappy only has that name under a Grandfather Clause.

The same with the tropes that are dialog-based before No New Stockphrases was made official policy (including the Our X Are Different snowclones that were created before said policy).

Notice that the policy's called "No New Stockphrases", not "No Stockphrases Allowed".

Bump

I see no contradiction here. Why all the fuss?

Karjam, has this actually caused any issues? I honestly think you're over-analyzing this.

Someone actually pointed out in a YKTTW that "Our X Are Different" snowclones are technically allowed under the "Everything's Worse with Snowclones" rule, despite the fact that it would violate No New Stockphrases if new tropes were to start off with that snowclone. [1]

"Everything's Worse with X" is not a stock phrase. I think that's where you're getting confused.

While it wasn't the thread where the addition was discussed, this thread deals with the snowclone family.

I meant the "Our X Is Different" snowclones being the stockphrase, Fighter. Not "Everything's Worse with Snowclones" itself.

They aren't a stock phrase. That's what we're saying.

If under you're ruling that it isn't a stockphrase, then okay.

However, doesn't the No New Stockphrases rule also applies to dialog-based titles even if the trope, nor the title for that matter, itself isn't a stockphrase?

Put it into the appropriate spot on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.

It's already there. And it still says I need to index it.

Sometimes you need to do a null edit for it to index properly. Just click the edit button without changing anything.

That didn't do it either...eh, screw it. Someone else can figure it out.

The page you need to null edit is the page it is indexed on (Star Trek: Deep Space Nine). Fixied.

There was a redirect which wasn't redirecting. I kicked it into shape with a null edit.

That looks awfully like the wiki version of Percussive Maintenance. Thanks.

Have you tried turning it off and then on again?

Umm, yeah. No idea.

Maybe Sid Vicious lives on as an electronic ghost?

Isn't that Ilasgoc page the same one I cleaned up yesterday? What the heck is with these people?

Edit: I found their wikia page, apparently this is Sidney. [1]

Strange as it may sound, I believe this isn't intentional vandalism...it's perfectly in line with the "humor" of that RP group. He may actually consider this to be an acceptable form of wiki editing.

Still baffled. They could have responded to the suspension by telling us that. Instead they ban evaded.

A bizarre interaction between various parts of the code, apparently.

They are? [[hottip:Test]]. Doesn't appear to be working for me, maybe I never learned to format them properly.

Perhaps we didn't murder them sufficiently hard?

Apparently they break an edit or two after being added.

Suspended and reverted.

As it says at the top of this very page: If you want to propose a new trope, use YKTTW; if you're looking for a particular trope, try Lost and Found.

Long as you're here though, Back for the Finale.

^^ People don't read the top of the page. That's the second guy who didn't read the top of the page in a few days.
May I suggest adding something to the posting page here? Or is it something for the Tech Wishlist forum?

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

Well, you can, if you shove a hose down his throat and pour the water in, but I'm not sure how to do that over the Internet.

Cleanup at what?

General cleanup, grammar stuff, sentences that make no sense, Not an Example, stuff in the fridge that should be in WMG, etc, etc. an example from the Radar page: "You can see in the background."

I agree. These problems are sadly common on most Trope Overdosed work pages. Natter, poor Example Indentation, Zero Context Examples and general unreadability tend to be the biggest issues, in my opinion. Subpages like Fridge, Nightmare Fuel, etc. can be even worse than the main trope lists.

You're probably best off starting a thread on the Projects/ Short Term forum. Maybe recruit some people from the Adventure Time thread to help out. I can pitch in myself, but there's no way I'm tackling that behemoth on my own.

IIRC, wasn't part of the problem single issue wonkers obsessed with Lemongrab? I know every episode with him is an eyesore in the Nightmare Fuel, Tear Jerker and Funny lists.

Don't know about any of that, I haven't inspected it that closely. I was just remarking on the quality of the trope lists in general, which has problems that are widespread throughout the wiki. No doubt fandom weirdness like character fandom/hatedom exacerbates certain issues.

I'm not even sure Trope Overdosed comes into it, really. Fridge and (especially) Radar pages are pretty much always disaster areas whatever their original work.

The key difference is that less well-known works tend to be easier to keep under control. It's usually easier to maintain good readability, relevant examples and proper example indentation on a relatively small page, provided people are willing to take the time to look after it.

With popular works like Adventure Time, it tends to just grow out of control, and it's far too much work for one person to look after. That's why concerted efforts like the one being suggested are needed.

Right, so I guess I'll start a thread on the projects/ Short Term forum? If that sounds like a good course of action? In the meantime, I'll keep reading through sub-pages to see which areas need the most work. So far, radar is the most noticeable, with incomplete sentences and parts where a part of a sentence is deleted but the rest left, resulting in an incoherent mess

I agree that the articles could use cleaning. A Projects thread seems appropriate; let us know if you think a page lock is needed to stop misbehavior.

mmm, yeah. I'll do that. I guess we'll take this to the thread now

Bump

That might be a cookie issue.

What should I do? I tried deleting my TV Tropes cookies and logging back in. Still had the same problem.

Is it related to the folder settings, by any chance?

There was a thread about people here on TV Tropes saying that the ability to auto-hide folders is broken.

That's actually the exact problem

Clear your browser cache. That usually clears it up.

^In the same thread, some people actually said that they did, yet they're still suffering from that exact same problem.

Cleared the browser cache. Then restarted Firefox. Same problem.

Bump

Sigismund Jung is the editor in question. I am sure they were already involved in this argument.

It's one guy who keeps ban evading

There's been a consensus to use Vandenreich instead of Wandenreich as that's what the English version of the story has it.

IE, we're only willing to use Wandenreich if the English manga starts to use it as well.

The true problem, though, is that a serial ban evader's doing it.

Reverted.

A lot of them seem real from what evidence is posted. It seems to be a purposely shout out heavy work.

Step one would be to split the Shout Out entry off into ShoutOut.Starbound.

Not necessarily. Last I checked shoutout's are a deliberate reference not just something in a work that is similar or influenced/inspired by something in another work. Some of the evidence is "It is similar or looks like something it must be a shout out!"

Is Shout out even a proper name space?

It is, it's been done when massively popular films/games have a giant load of 'em and it won't all fit on a Trivia page comfortably. See: Borderlands 2, Pacific Rim...

Well if it works it works.

(Please note: Shout Out is not Trivia and should not go on Trivia pages, although a lot of people put it there.)

No one mentioned it being trivia here and it has already been handled rather nicely.

I think Tel was just making a general FYI comment for anyone reading who wasn't aware of it.

It was with reference to what E Kono Mai said, "it won't all fit on a Trivia page".

Yeah, the appropriate tab will magically appear.

Edit: Ignore me, I think he just answered your question while I was typing this.

Thanks a lot, guys. =)

They always get nuked. Don't sweat it.

The bloody hell? Is this a Just for Fun thing? I see lots of tropers contributing.

Its on the Journal Roleplay index. Should be in the Roleplay namespace to start with.

People should know better. Move it and delete all the ZCEs.

Alright, I'll start moving the page.

Edit: Done moving, what should I do with the awesome, funny, and heartwarming pages?

As subpages, they remain where they are.

I understand that, what I meant was if I delete the examples on the subpages they will be blank.

^This is the sole case where page-blanking is kosher (ONLY on subpages.) Although fixing the examples is preferred of course.

Ok, I have no prior experience with this work so I'll go ahead and blank them.

Report it here.

The mods would take care of it.

Don't start an Edit War.

PM them. Most people don't check edit histories before adding examples, so they won't be aware you removed an example unless you put a commented out note in.

... incidentally, it's a fully-spoilered example, which is a massive no-no. Also it's a really dumb example. Definitely should be cut.

Just an update, Enigma has added Asshole Victim and a trope on the main page foreshadowing the character's "true nature." The problem? The character in question is a starving dog.

The first one can easily be deleted since it doesn't count (the main character doesn't have an ill will and is outright apologetic over what happened), but I'll PM them and direct them to the discussion page. If they ignore it I'll holler for mods. Additional thoughts?

Pinball doesn't have it. And, as of now, Real Life doesn't as well. :P

Anyway, as far as I know, no one's stopping you from doing it.

I do not see a problem, really.

Sounds like a good idea to me, too.

Okay, then. Does anyone actually disagree to the notion of gathering all the Batman entries in Grapping Hook Pistol into one Batman folder?

As I said here in a thread about another of these things, I'm not even sure we should have it unless there's proof it really is a widespread concept and not just a Bechdel Test knockoff someone is proposing.

Right. We don't need articles every time some social media site comes up with a new variation of a fad or meme, and these "tests" have all the hallmarks of such things.

It can be deleted for violating Repair, Don't Respond (for which I did).

EDIT: Compromising the example to reference Smogon.

Thanks.

As I said, I'm compromising with those who insist that they're banned by mentioning that it's a subversion if you're following Smogon's unofficial rules concerning battling.

? Put mentions to non-official material of non-official fandom sites in character pages is allowed?

Who says it isn't?

The aim of this place is to list trope within all forms of fiction, right?

It doesn't matter if it's unofficial or not, as long as it exists in some way.

That's the reason why people lists the tropes of Fan Fics here without getting into trouble, and is also why rules such as No Such Thing As Notability is here as well.

At least I clarified that it's a subversion if one's following "Smogon's unofficial rules of battling" so that others can know that I'm referring to unofficial rules instead of official ones.

Fandom reactions like that do not belong on the main pages.

^ Tell that to the other Pokémon character listings for each individual Pokémon, a lot of them having Overshadowed by Awesome as a trope and listing why it is (compared to other similar Pokémon).

Then that means we need to fix those too. Just because multiple pages made that mistake doesn't mean it's okay for others to do so.

Yeah, I know.

My point being was that Infernape isn't the only one with Overshadowed by Awesome as a trope which "applies" to them because of what the members find what's cool and what's not.

That sounds like Pokemon has a lot of misuse and the pages need to be cleaned up.

^Competitive gaming, which Smogon is about, causes a lot of weirdness in tropes like that.

The main problem is that Smogon is basically the de-facto ruleset for competitive gaming; it's not official as in part of the game, but it's really big in the fandom. My suggestion is this:

Rather than deleting the examples outright, move them to the Smogon page, where they'd actually be relevant.

That's a good idea. Stuff related to a particular fandom "interpretation" — ruleset, whatever — should go on that fandom's article rather than the main work's article.

Time to a short time projects thread?

Bump.

Yeah, that'll be great.

Okay, thanks.

I think so, and also Made of Iron and Don't Try This at Home. It would depend on context — if she didn't figure out hornets are in a hornets nest, yes. If she simply didn't care, maybe not.

No, this character did it because she's a moron and too stupid to realize she could die. I didn't think of Don't Try This at Home, though. Thanks.

^Uh, sorry I ninja-editted my reply. Sounds like it qualifies, heh.

You damn dirty ninja. ;-) Thanks.

Yeah, preferred style is not to do it that way, just have everything in one alphabetized list.

I think there needs to be a project that sorts out violators of Example Indentation.

EDIT: There is.

Not to mention that most of these are ZCE-er than the ZCE-est Main/ page I've seen.

Technically not, desdendelle, since the first bullet point that prefaces all of them explicitly pointed out that these are the names of powers.

It would be, however, if they've independent from the super trope due to the fact that they're violating Example Indentation.

If you were to interpret the rule differently (ie, detailing on what each ability does), then I'd understand why you're screaming that they're Zero Context Examples.

Even a brief sentence about what the power does would be helpful there.

@Karjam P: I see no difference between naming a power and saying it, say, exhibits Shock and Awe, and naming a character and saying it exhibits Shock and Awe. In both cases a browser that doesn't know the work in question is left without context. One name is as good as another.

One thing I've seen done, on the Characters.Grrl Power page, is to have them all potholed under the supertrope like normal examples:

• Ancient Artifact: Halo has seven of them. They're floating orbs in the colors of the spectrum, and each one gives her a different superpower:
  • The orange one is a Wave Motion Gun.
  • The yellow one makes an illusion of her that she can see and hear through. It also grants her True Sight, the ability to see through illusions or invisibility.
  • The blue one lets her fly.
  • The indigo one lets her make force fields.
  • The violet one gives her a telekinetically operated psuedopod.
  • She hasn't figured out what the red and green ones do.

And then also put them in the normal alphabetization:

• Barrier Warrior: When using the indigo orb. Not only can she change the size of the force field to cover large groups of people, it's strong enough to take Maxima's most powerful attacks without difficulty.

In fact, last time this came up here, it was someone asking about what to do about the Grrl Power page, and this was the recommendation. I wish ATT archived things a bit longer so I could just point straight to it.

You can use the search box at the top to find old ATT threads.

The solution you proposed makes a lot of sense.

@desdendelle: I've figured out why it could be interpreted as Zero Context Examples as I've wrote it. :P

Anyway, why not promote what Discar suggested as a guideline in Example Indentation listing subtropes in supertropes properly?

I realized that the problem also occurs through other types of supertropes with plentiful of subtropes (like Video Game Settings).

Therefore, my suggestion's expanded to this.

Bumped so that the mods can see the latest incarnation of my suggestion.

Yeah, Discar's suggestion makes sense.

The thing is that we want to make sure that we aren't listing subtropes as sub-bullets under supertropes. That stands. It seems pointless to double-up the examples by doing it both ways, though. It's certainly preferable to having sub-bulleted ZCE subtrope examples, but it's not that much of an improvement overall.

If an example applies to a subtrope, then it should be listed there, not under the supertrope. That's Example Writing 101.

In other words, Discar's idea's shot down by the mods.

It seems to me that you have a different opinion than the editor adding them (read: You seem to be saying that these things actually happen). Since your opinion doesn't affect the existence of theirs, the entries have to stay.

eta: Justifying notes are natter there. I would not add them, either.

So, basically when somebody adds something to They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot, it stays, and nobody but the original person made the edit can remove it?

If the information is properly detailed, it stays. If there's an inaccuracy, it can be corrected without creating a separate entry (Repair, Don't Respond). If it's just plain wrong, it can be deleted. But beware, when I say "wrong", I mean factually wrong, not that you disagree with it and you think it's wrong.

Basically, opinions are the whole point of the YMMV page, but they cant contain factual innacuracies, or be clearcut cases of Insane Troll Logic by a Single-Issue Wonk. ("Spiderman was clearly created as a metaphor for Obamacare" could be safely burned out of existence.)

What you can do is, try bringing it up on the discussion page first, and see if some of the Hive Mind agree that those are way off base and need modification or zorching. We prefer the opinions have at least some consensus behind them (even if its a small minority of the fanbase.)

Okay, I'll see about bringing them to the discussion page and forum thread first. Hopefully, somebody will respond.

The second one can stay if need be (depending one's opinions), but the first one does need to be fixed.

Ok. If and when you modify/cleanse with fire, be sure to leave an edit reason to the effect of "Per agreement on discussion page" (or forum thread or wherever.)

EDIT: Looking over them again, I do agree that the second one is pretty clear misuse ("There have been several missed opportunities for Mother Theresa to fight Godzilla" — See? It could be applied that way to every potential Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny ever.) I think it effectively works out to a Zero-Context Example.

Isn't there a rule now that character pages aren't supposed to have spoilers at all? Or has that changed?

No. They simply can't have the names tagged, like this:

• Killed Off for Real: At the end of season 3.

Either leave the name untagged:

• Killed Off for Real: At the end of season 3.

Or bury it in another example somehow.

• Disney Death. He apparently dies midway through season 3. He's fine, but actually dies at the end of the season.

I don't follow Walking Dead, so I can't give any more specific advice than that. There are some character pages (or more often, individual characters) that are just flat-out impossible to discuss without whiting everything out, in which case it's easier to remove the tags completely and put a big warning that spoilers will be unmarked. However, that's something to decide on each individual page.

tl,dr: Spoiler tags are fine on character pages, don't go overboard. Bring it up on the discussion tab for more specifics; you really need fans of the show to figure out what spoilers are appropriate.

^^ Fast Eddie (IIRC) said that initially, but was talked out of it.

It would make things much easier, though... :P

(fricking ninjas...)

^ Actually, hiding it in spoiler tags is prohibited, as one can move the cursor over the hidden trope name and see the URL in the status bar (or functional equivalent) of the viewer's browser.

That is the new rule. No spoiler tags in Characters pages. Edit: Or not. They should be minimal, regardless, and under no circumstances are the trope name or the entire example to be tagged.

Oh, I thought that was rescinded. Is it written down somewhere, or just Word Of Admin?

[edit] Dammit, I'd really like a written in stone (well, electrons, but you know what I mean) Final Word(tm) statement on this issue. Spoilers is the main cause of work needed for those pages, with Example Indentation being a distant second.

[sigh] This round and round circle discussion really makes me want to scream. Seriously, just pick your favorite Rage Quit of the past couple years and pretend I did it.

@ OP: If nothing else, we have agreed that hiding the trope names like Greg is doing is against policy. PM him with a point to Spoiler Policy, and the thread if he makes an issue out of it. I still think burying them in other examples is an appropriate compromise, but this isn't the place for it. We have that wiki talk thread if we want to pound our heads against this wall again. I'm too lazy to link it.

Incidentally, Killed Off for Real is only supposed to be used in settings where resurrection is possible. Haven't seen The Walking Dead but assuming it follows the usual pattern for zombification I don't think it counts.

^ No, it doesn't, but that was just a hypothetical example by sgamer, as he doesn't watch TWD.

Anyway, PMed Greg with a pointer to the policy page and a brief explanation of where his edits fail to meet said policy.

Put it on Needs Wiki Magic Love.

Or YKTTW Crash Rescue - Fixing prematurely launched YKTTWs and pages

Bounced.

Banned. Cleanup can proceed.

Sure? They don't seem that long to me.

^Seconded. I think this is an improvement, myself.

Look at the last few folders, rather than the first few.

Anyway, the point is that it was done by one guy without any discussion.

I lean toward fewer, larger folders myself. (More folders = more page breakage.)

But you're right that he should not have done this unilaterally.

Isn't the standard for this wiki that you break things up by season for Live-Action TV?

In this case, it'd be nice to have folders per Doctor with subfolders per season, but I don't think we can nest folders, so that's out.

The standard solution to the "can't nest folders" problem is to soft-split the folders with !! headers. That might be an appropriate compromise here.

Did someone PM Finister2? If not I will.

I don't think anyone did yet.

Aight, I sent a PM explaining that he should discuss plans for massive page reorganization with the Hive Mind first, in the future.

Looks like a PM might be in order. I natterfied them for the Stupid Neutral edits.

He's still putting in bad images. Sometimes they're on pages without images, which I can... tolerate, but he's often changing images without making an IP thread.

Changed image

Bad changed image

Changed image, but at least the replacement image was decent

Added an image when there's an Admin Note saying not to

That name sounds familiar. He may be a ban evader.

He's got a history of being suspended. Guess we pull him in again.

Bump.

Bump. I'm tired of reverting the natter edits of this dude, so I hope you can forgive my insistence.

I already posted something in a different topic. It should happen soon enough. -_-

Got it.

Got it.

Try to PM them first.

Yeah, will do. I'll try my best to provide some friendly tips about the site, since it's a relatively new account.

Edit: Issue solved, a bit laconically I'd say but not everybody has/replies with my loquaciousness. All fine and dandy then.

Welcome! Yes, that incident is a very good example of a Plot-Based Voice Cancellation (you don't need to use [[ ]]s with that — see the Text Formatting Rules for more info). However, the draft you wrote needs some more context so that even those unfamiliar with Harry Potter will understand why it is significant. I'll write up a longer version shortly.

fixed

As do "Strangers on a Train"-Plot Murder and "Well Done, Son" Guy.

I'm going to take a wild guess and assume this is affecting every trope name with quotes in it.

Seems to be affecting trope names with apostrophes as well, such as Dude, She's Like in a Coma.

All this should be fixed now.

Start with Welcome to TV Tropes. The links there will lead you to all our key policy pages. See also the Administrivia index.

Here's a forum thread for checking if a possible example is an example.

Here's the Get Help with English thread for if English isn't your first language, or you have trouble writing to the site's standards.

Hmm, it's just me or do the style, questions, timing, and some of the edits of this new troper seem very reminiscent of the ones from a recently bounced editor by the name of Craver357?

Not my intention to point the finger, it's just that the surgical removal of spaces before colons in spoiler tags and some obsession with Faux Affably vs Affably Evil and bee-line edits sound overly familiar to me here (I've done some clean-up in the past). This habit of removing VERY VALID Anti-Hero entries from characters he dislikes (recently Don Draper and McNulty) is just very suspicious, indicates negativity and failure to comprehend nuance, again, familiar and kind of unique traits.

I'm not the same person, mind you. I'm just helping to correct what I want to do. And please don't jump to conclusions about me.

You've still removed valid entries and committed the other errors Troll Brutal pointed out. It's highly recommended you stop the bad edits, or the mods will have to tap you on the shoulder for a talk.

I'm sorry about that. Please. I'll take back what I'm doing. Sorry for the inconvenience. I'll just stay out of the pages where I've committed the errors.

And speaking of which, why is there a need for spaces before colons in spoiler tags and making unnecessarily bee-line edits sort of wrong? I don't want to commit the same mistakes again.

EDIT: Ignore this, I got unacceptably snarky.

Please hear me out with patience but to speak to you people first. I just want you to answer my question regarding the spaces before colons in spoiler tags and bee-line edits. I promise it won't happen again.

Ok, I'm prepared to go into helpful mode, but I want a mod to judge whether this looks like ban evasion first. He appears to be perjuring himself, but it may only be his grammar shooting him in the foot. Jammer, if you're deemed clean I'll be only too happy to assist.

Nothing in the metadata points to evasion.

Ok, good enough.

Jammer, theres nothing wrong with the colon thing in and of itself, but it's behavior very similar to someone that was banned and threw up a red flag.

DO NOT remove stuff from pages that you dont like. You can remove if it is factually inaccurate, but an interpretation of a character is an opinion and not subject to that — opinions are the entire point of YMMV tropes. Including ones you don't like. Trying to censor the same opinions repeatedly draws the Wrath of Mod upon you very quickly.

Also, if you delete something, always leave an edit reason. Deletions without explanations attached get scrutinized in a bad way.

The grammar thing isn't something I can help with one quick summary. "Please hear me out with patience but to speak to you people first." is not proper English. "Please be patient, and hear me out while I speak first" is. We DO want the pages to have proper, polished sentences. Not trying to be insulting, but just illustrating that this isn't something we can help with a quick paragraph, as most of your sentences are mangled — you'll need to check the links above.

Okay. Thanks for the advice, Drac Monster. Also, apologies for that sentence which sounds like improper English. And I agree with you about not removing stuff from pages that I don't like. Tropes Are Tools and they're not bad.

^There, see, you're getting better already. We'll turn you into an English professor yet. :)

^ Just one more question: Regarding what you said about leaving an edit reason for deleting an unfit trope or example, do I also have to leave an edit reason when changing tropes and moving an example from one trope to another?

^Unless the reason is blatantly obvious. ("Western Terrorist: Snoopy fantasizes about mass-murdering innocent Nazis" is self-explanatory.) If you think there's any chance someone would question it, explain fully to be safe.

Adding stuff doesn't really need this - a well-written example is it's own edit reason.

Again, thanks for the advice. Now I can enjoy making my edits and trying to improve them in peace.

Fine then. Apologies regarding the doppleganger thing are in order. There were some other common habits I left unmentioned but the bounced editor was capable of making such appalling mistakes thay he doesn't strike me as clever enough to change IP, browser, OS etc to fool the system.

Happy troping. It's truly remarkable to see a person who is new to this site alphabetizing things, using internal notes, asking about the mechanics of trope descriptions and splitting tropes into new subpages... Kudos

Edited to Add after further analysis: I'd knock it off and/or expose myself to mod wrath, but I don't buy it. Craver and this editor happen to change around the word, and just the word, "jerk" for "narcissist" from a long entry, in just a few days in Characters/IronMan , to name just one place. A newbie editor who starts alphabetizing examples, just like the other editor did during his final days and changes invisible things like Wiki Word to Wiki Word (without brackets)? Please

Your old obsession (sometimes accurate) with Cowboy Cop vs Rabid Cop (not always exclusive tropes and sometimes complementary) doesn't go unnoticed. Example 1 vs today 2 . Incidentally you repeated in The Wire the anti hero to nominal hero (an in-universe only trope) switch. It's very evident revising your history that you recently learned of the existence of Deconstructed Trope, again a common interest.

Too bad you choose to edit some tropes barely touched in months by anybody but you and Craver. Nice touch this Namespacing there. Kudos again.

Plenty of examples of space removal between spoiler and colon. Same editor, sorry

^Uh.. mods? This is some pretty damning evidence.

It is, isn't it? You'd think people would learn.

Oh. I'm a bit remorseful for being overtly thorough in a Clue, Evidence, and a Smoking Gun sense, there is more stuff not mentioned, but he may wise up the next time, but hey just the nick + a number was painfully evident. I have no problem with compromising and so on, but this editor is really toxic because he spams rapid-fire examples often only questionable when you have some knowledge of the trope and the work. He's bad with subtlety.

May I ask for a "moderator restored to earlier version" thing here please? I can elaborate if needed, an HBO show is always full of nuance and it was edited with a bulldozer... (It's on my watchlist, but I didn't write any of the changed entries IIRC, no personal stake here, so to speak)

ETA: I will expand later some Zero Context Examples and rewrite some things there while we are it.

^Don't be too sorry. He was blatantly lying in his posts. "Watergate mode" was perfectly fine here.

I regret helping him learn to disguise himself now.

^^I reverted that one.

Well, they are both Zero Context Examples.

But she doesn't give any reasons that she removed it. She deleted them with no explanation. I put it back explaining why it's and example and she deleted it again, ignoring it.

BUMP.

Spongebob an Patrick are Man children, not cheerful children. I explained it and she ignored it.

EDIT: I restored both examples and watch her delete them again.

They should be commented out or filled in if an appropriate trope, not deleted.

Have you tried inviting them to discussion?

And as I understand it, that's the first step of edit warring she's done

No, she keeps on deleting the examples and replacing it with Cheerful Child, despite the fact that the characters are adults.

I commented out the example of Spongebob and Patrick being manchildren in the western animation subpage.

Suspended.

I don't know if there's a formal policy, but the usual standards is Western naming conventions on most English-language sources.

Basically, whichever order is most commonly used by the Western fandom. 99% of the time it's Western order.

bump. is removal unneccessary?

Uh, ignore this, completely misread the post, lol.

awesome, thanks.

now to PM Cave Cat to work on it...

DracMonster: you've been misposting a lot lately...

@below: LOL, i can relate, though mine's on schoolwork. damn window display designing...

NOO IM OUTED!

Actually, posting at work between customers on a slow day...

Mako hacked your account! NOW you see how evil he is?! Excuse me while I go add this to the Korra page!

...*Ahem*, dunno if it's in some way related to the display bugginess reported in other posts here.

Discussion pages falling off watchlists is a long-standing problem. To fix it (for a little bit) you have to un-watch then re-watch the main page (no need to go to another page between the two acts, though).

What?! MAKO HOW COULD YOUUUUUUU!

@Nohbody - Ah, well, I was doing this already, but thanks anyway. I was just hoping there was something else I could do to make it stop happening so frequently :(