Ask The Tropers

Appeals to the troper hivemind...

If you want to propose a new trope, use YKTTW; if you're looking for a particular trope, try Lost And Found. For a discussion on a particular topic, head over to the Forum instead.

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TheOneWhoTropes
Medium:
02:00:48 AM 18th Sep 2014
do creator pages need trope lists now? Willbyr seems to think so. the pages had one or two lines of description and then a list of works, and he put them on the Cut List. If this has been decided in the mod forum and not passed down, I can understand. But I haven't seen anything about this anywhere on the site.
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Karxrida
04:49:11 PM 8th Sep 2014
IIRC, Trope lists are only for tropes concerning their works (if said works don't have their own pages), and not about the creators themselves.
Fighteer
moderator
07:02:59 PM 8th Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
A creator page shouldn't just be a stub for the purpose of making bluelinks.

Edit: It has long been my assertion that creator articles should list all works associated with that creator, at least that we have an article for.
Prfnoff
07:22:42 AM 9th Sep 2014
Those pages Willbyr cutlisted did have lists of associated works that we have articles for. What else do creator pages need to avoid qualifying as stubs?
Larkmarn
07:55:51 AM 9th Sep 2014
I'd say they need... something. Seriously, just a list of works they've been in isn't useful. We're not IMDB. A bio, tropes... something.
Prfnoff
08:08:47 AM 9th Sep 2014
"Something" doesn't exactly answer the question.
SeptimusHeap
09:03:43 AM 9th Sep 2014
A bio is of little interest. Tropes used frequently in their works, maybe. A worklist though is almost necessary.
rexpensive
12:34:20 PM 9th Sep 2014
Well, a list of plain works is not providing on-mission information, but it does help people navigate the site in a manner they might prefer (checking out works tied to one particular creator.) I do not see anything wrong with that, personally.

It sounds like this is something that need to be worked out one way or the other though since we seem to lack an official policy.
Xtifr
02:31:19 PM 10th Sep 2014
If creator pages must have tropes, then we have the semi-paradoxical situation where the existence of a creator page can be justified until enough separate work pages have been created, and then the creator page needs to be cut (because all the tropes can finally be moved to specific works pages). Frankly, that seems rather silly to me.

We have pages for lists of authors' works which double as indexes (e.g. Works By Stephen King). Should those be cut as well?
SeptimusHeap
02:34:55 PM 10th Sep 2014
This may also be a topic for this thread.
Xtifr
11:10:53 PM 10th Sep 2014
Allow me to clarify. I think actor pages need strong justification to be exist on this wiki, because actors are usually only incidentally involved in troping, and they can't actually be called the creator of the works they appear in. We call them "creators" because they do create tropes in the works they appear in (sometimes), so it's reasonable to have actors pages if they list tropes! Otherwise, I say nuke 'em.

For other types of creators (authors, screenwriters, directors, composers, artists, mangaka), I think it's pretty reasonable to have pages that are little more than lists of works, because those are actually their works. Not just the occasional trope, but the entire work or the vast majority of it. John Carpenter is the actual creator of They Live!; "Rowdy" Roddy Piper is the star, but he didn't create the work (and indeed, we have a page for his wrestling persona, but no creator page for him).

I keep forgetting that some people think "actor" when the term "creator page" is used, because that's usually the last thing I think of. :)
Willbyr
moderator
05:04:21 PM 16th Sep 2014
edited by Willbyr
^ Sorry, but that's bogus. At the very least, regardless of the medium, a Creator/ page should have a brief biography (and not one or two sentences, but at least one comprehensive paragraph), a list of works he/she has made and/or participated in, and a list of tropes common to and/or prominent in the body of his/her work. What you've described there is an index page at best and a stub (like that Al Murray page that I cutlisted) at worst.

Look to Stephen King for a good example of what a good Creator/ page should look like.
Xtifr
12:24:22 PM 17th Sep 2014
So...we should duplicate the tropes that already appear on work pages? That seems odd—I always remove the tropes about a particular work from the creator page when I make a new page for the work. "Tropes common to or prominent in the body of his/her work" assumes there are such tropes—some authors (like Walter Jon Williams) are famous for *not* having a common style or genre or much of anything else like that.

I agree that the amount of bio material on Stephen King is good, but really, bio material is somewhat off-mission. The main reasons for having a creator page should be A) tropes (way the top reason), and B) indexing the works! In fact, for reasonably prolific authors who have a lot of work pages, it's very common to actually make the page into an actual index (see, for example, Robert A. Heinlein).

Again, saying that a creator page should have tropes or be deleted leads to the conclusion that a creator page should be deleted once the last work page for that creator has been made, since all the tropes may then be moved to the work pages. And, frankly, that seems quite silly.
SeptimusHeap
12:38:15 PM 17th Sep 2014
Seems like this will need a Wiki Talk discussion, to me. For one thing, we don't have any standards for creator page minimum content nailed down.
Willbyr
moderator
02:00:48 AM 18th Sep 2014
I agree, this could use a Wiki Talk thread.

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yggsassil
Medium:
11:30:01 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by yggsassil
Fix a YMMV Recap entry? I accidentally put a Trivia entry under a YMMV page and am not sure how to get the YMMV button to stop showing up. There's no other YMMV entries so it's sitting there, completely empty and useless.

Edit: This one, which I didn't do, is also sitting here, totally useless and empty.
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SeptimusHeap
11:30:01 PM 17th Sep 2014
You need to Cut List the subpage.

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DracMonster
Medium:
09:49:49 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by DracMonster
Edit warring over natter removal, la la la...

EDIT: Uh, wait, the page is locked. Sorry, guess this was reported and dealt with already.
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MyFinalEdits
09:49:49 PM 17th Sep 2014
A rather unfortunate irony, considering the article's subject.

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Rotpar
Medium:
08:04:30 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by Rotpar
I was wondering if we could use an index for Novelization. The simple way would be to change the page type (Trope + indexing) but I'm not doing that without discussing it first. The page isn't formatted like an index, being a trope after all, and I'm drawing a blank on the purpose of the "does indexing" option is meant for.

Otherwise, if changing the trope page isn't the correct way to do this, take it to YKTTW?
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SeptimusHeap
12:40:23 PM 17th Sep 2014
Merely changing the page type will cause all matter of links on the page to be indexed. Don't do that. You ought to create a separate index section - lists that try to double as example and index section tend to create problems.
Rotpar
02:17:44 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by Rotpar
I'm confused by what you mean with a separate index section. Like a soft split, copying all the links to be indexed to a new section elsewhere on the page? Turning the page into something like this:

Examples


Index
PaulA
07:36:01 PM 17th Sep 2014
One issue with making Novelization an index is that very few novelizations have their own pages on this wiki. Most of the links on the current list of examples go instead to the thing that was novelized, and those probably don't belong on the index.
Fighteer
moderator
08:04:30 PM 17th Sep 2014
This would be a list of novelizations, not things that have novelizations. As noted, that is probably a fairly rare category of distinct work page.

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SatoshiBakura
Medium:
07:11:40 PM 17th Sep 2014
According the Handling Spoilers page, spoilers are not allowed above the trope example line. But I have noticed that on character pages, this kind of thing happens a lot. Even when spoiled out tropes are fixed, the spoilers above the examples line remain unchanged. Can someone please tell me whether it's okay to have spoilers above the trope example line or not on character pages?
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MyFinalEdits
04:46:57 PM 17th Sep 2014
It's not okay in Character tabs either. If you do see such issues, feel free to eliminate the spoiler tags in those parts of the tabs. And if you catch someone in fraganti adding them there, send them a Spoiler notifier.
SatoshiBakura
04:57:25 PM 17th Sep 2014
Why not exactly? The the Handling Spoilers page explains that trope names shouldn't be spoiled because if someone hovers their mouse over it, the spoiler is pointless. But no explanation is offered in the case of the description (in case you didn't know what I was talking about, I meant the description of the characters). What is the reason spoilers are not allowed in the main description or character descriptions?
Terrie
05:09:29 PM 17th Sep 2014
It rather defeats the point of descriptions, which would be to describe what you will find in that section/page.
CrypticMirror
06:55:04 PM 17th Sep 2014
I restate my plea to make sub-pages in general, and character pages in particular, all spoiler-tag free zones. It just keeps coming up.
SatoshiBakura
07:07:12 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by SatoshiBakura
With something like Red vs. Blue, that will not only never work, it might make things worse. Red vs. Blue has a habit of having characters come back from the dead. That will especially not work with both Church and Carolina.
Fighteer
moderator
07:11:40 PM 17th Sep 2014
If you can't make the article work within the spoiler rules, then leave off the tags and prominently mark the article with a Here there be spoilers note.

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DracMonster
Medium:
06:49:59 PM 17th Sep 2014
AwesomeMcCoolname.Real Life

Is this Just for Fun? About 2/3s of the examples are just essentially "Hey, I think this person is awesome!" with little to do with their actual name. In short, it reads more like a sort of Troper Tales page.

I'm not sure it's worth a TRS thread, but should I or someone else go through it with a chainsaw or just cut list it?
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Fighteer
moderator
06:42:57 PM 17th Sep 2014
Take it to the Real Life cleanup thread in Long Term Projects.
DracMonster
06:49:59 PM 17th Sep 2014
Okeedokee.

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DracMonster
Medium:
06:48:39 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by DracMonster
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TheNerfGuy
06:34:14 PM 17th Sep 2014
Uh, sorry about the restoration. I should've said something before undoing DACB's deletion...
DracMonster
06:41:11 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by DracMonster
Normally we wait until the blanker gets sent to the penalty box, otherwise they're likely to just blank it again. (It's cool though.)
Fighteer
moderator
06:41:22 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
Suspended.

The Nerf Guy: You did right to restore the page, but you should have reported the issue here first.
DracMonster
06:48:39 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by DracMonster
^He did that in response to my OP here, actually. Just jumped the gun a bit. :)

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RabidTanker
Medium:
05:06:54 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by RabidTanker
Can someone help explain to me what's wrong with the images on Transformers Rise Of The Dark Spark? Because I think I messed up big time with the images on this page. And I initially wanted images for as many characters as possible...
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CrystalGlacia
05:16:13 PM 15th Sep 2014
Well, they're too big; they're taller than their profiles and tropelists are. Try filling out their profiles first, and then determine how big you can make the images without them hanging down into the profile below them.

I'm not familiar enough with Transformers to know if pictures of them can be cropped to not show their whole bodies without losing information that's necessary to them, though.
Discar
06:47:41 PM 15th Sep 2014
That page has other issues, and the images are pretty low on the list. The formatting is...bad. Very very bad. I'm hoping you're still working on it, but I'm going to go through the issues one by one just to be on the safe side.

First off: Color code doesn't work on the main wiki any more. So get rid of that completely.

Second: If you can't think of a single non-ZCE trope for a character, they shouldn't be on the page. Also don't forget descriptions, for a similar reason. They provide context to the example lists.

Third: The group headers ("Autobots," "Decepticons") should be at a different indent level than the character headers, to distinguish them. Use ! for the groups, and !! for the characters.

Four: Put each individual character in a folder. That will also help with the too-tall images.

Just off the top of my head, Characters.Bravely Default and Characters.Mega Tokyo are good examples of properly formatted character pages.
AnoBakaDesu
07:12:30 AM 16th Sep 2014
All the Characters.Dark Souls and Characters.Dark Souls II subpages are stellar examples of how a character page should be formated. It pays when you have Page Guardians rooting out poor formatting edits and the inclusion of Natter/YMMV/Trivia.
RabidTanker
04:29:08 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by RabidTanker
Can someone point me to the Adminstrivia article that explains how to make folders, I've seen it before on my PSP but I can't find it atm. In the meantime I'll be fixing 1 and 3. I'll work on 2 as I fill in the list via Lost And Found.
RabidTanker
05:06:54 PM 17th Sep 2014
Update:I just fixed issues 1 and 4. And I think I've figured out an way to resize the images...

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shadowblack
Medium:
03:09:23 PM 17th Sep 2014
Examples Are Not Recent, yet some examples mention "recent" things. Is there a dedicated thread for help with such examples? I had a quick look at the Long Term projects in the forum, but all I saw was this thread which is rather old and seems to be more about the word "recently" than about help with fixing "recent" examples.
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AnoBakaDesu
01:35:01 PM 17th Sep 2014
The only course of action is to fix them. Examples Are Not Recent is clear and concise.
shadowblack
01:48:39 PM 17th Sep 2014
The problem is I'm not familiar with the titles from the examples, so I can't really fix them.
MyFinalEdits
03:09:23 PM 17th Sep 2014
Try using more neutral terms like "later" or "eventually", with some rewording of the tenses if it's necessary. It's what I always do. =)

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PistolsAtDawn
Medium: Webcomic
02:12:40 PM 17th Sep 2014
Can a webcomic have Getting Crap Past the Radar as an example? obviously there is no overt radar here (well, its sponsored on hiveworks so presumably does need to stay pg-13, but i digress) in this case (Paranatural) the author chooses to make the comic family-friendly, no one even swears and the main characters are 12, so it is very suprising when he throws in a reference to flipping someone off. However, is it really GCPTR? does a self-imposed radar count?
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SeptimusHeap
12:39:01 PM 17th Sep 2014
Personally, I'd be afraid that such an usage will encourage shoehorning.
Fighteer
moderator
12:46:37 PM 17th Sep 2014
That trope cannot apply if there is no radar to get past. It requires that the work be subject to active censorship, not merely a self-imposed standard on the part of its author.
PistolsAtDawn
01:03:00 PM 17th Sep 2014
Alright then, i will remove it.
Fighteer
moderator
02:12:40 PM 17th Sep 2014
Good idea. That said, if its host/sponsor has standards ("PG-13" in this case), and the work finds a way to dodge them, then it would count.

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TheNerfGuy
Medium: Anime
02:08:02 PM 17th Sep 2014
edited by TheNerfGuy
Well this is frustrating. I created a new Fanfic Recs page for an anime. I even put a link to it on the main Fanfic Recs page, yet it says it hasn't been indexed even though it's been far longer than it usually takes. Why? Other Fanfic Recs pages say they're indexed. Why doesn't this one?
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SeptimusHeap
01:16:04 PM 17th Sep 2014
When did you put the page on the index? Before or after creating the page?
shadowblack
01:17:56 PM 17th Sep 2014
Looking at the dates you put the page on the index before you created it, and since it did not exist at the time it was not indexed. In such cases you need to do a blank edit of the index for the new page to get indexed. I just did that for you, so no need to do it this time.

In the future first create the page, then add it to index pages.
TheNerfGuy
02:08:02 PM 17th Sep 2014
Thanks. I will make use of this advice.

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naal2
Medium:
09:18:49 AM 17th Sep 2014
I made a tvtropes page of a fanfic I like. However, I can't make a YMMV page because this anime of the same name already has a YMMV page. What do I do? Please help me.
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TheNerfGuy
07:39:15 PM 16th Sep 2014
I may not be a mod or engineer or any other part of the staff, but I'll give it my best shot.

Can you try differentiating the fic from the anime via name and remaking the page from there? That's the only suggestion that comes to mind right now.
PPPSSC
09:27:17 PM 16th Sep 2014
edited by PPPSSC
You can also soft-split the YMMV page into anime examples and fanfic examples, or hard-split it into YMMV.Memories Anime and YMMV.Memories Fanfic and turn YMMV.Memories into an index.
SeptimusHeap
01:37:31 AM 17th Sep 2014
How to Split a Page does give an indication on how to soft-split articles, which is the recommended solution in these situations.
TheOneWhoTropes
09:18:49 AM 17th Sep 2014
edited by TheOneWhoTropes
Naal2: Please also index and crosswick your fanfic page - see How Indexing Works and Crosswicking.

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AnoBakaDesu
Medium:
01:34:59 AM 17th Sep 2014
I wanted to start contributing to the purge on Fan Dumb and Hate Dumb, but then I stumbled on this page. "Holy shit" does not even begin to describe the staggering amount of YMMV terms on it.
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MyFinalEdits
12:13:27 AM 17th Sep 2014
My eyes hurt. In these cases, what I do is to do a massive cleanup to remove the present issues (usually taking more than 20 minutes; in my latest mass edit I needed almost one hour to eliminate all issues of a messed up page).
SeptimusHeap
01:34:59 AM 17th Sep 2014
Moved the stuff over.

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Caelo
Medium:
09:11:33 PM 16th Sep 2014
I'm new to the whole forum thing and all, but there's a page for a certain role-playing I've been looking at for a while and wanting to update; the bulk of it's apparently referring things from 2011-2012. I don't know if I need permission, if there's anywhere I should post for that to start, or anything really.

(this is probably in the wrong place but I couldn't find anywhere to ask.)
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Candi
08:58:06 PM 16th Sep 2014
Anyone with an account can edit, but I strongly advise you to first read the Administrivia pages such as How to Write an Example and others on the same subject, as well as the ones involving rules, guidelines, and do's and don't of TV Tropes. :p ;)

If you want a better idea of what to do or not do, I suggest reading at least some of the edit banned/suspended thread under Frequently Asked Questions.
Caelo
09:11:33 PM 16th Sep 2014
Alright then, thank you! c:

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MattStriker
Medium:
04:07:12 PM 16th Sep 2014
edited by MattStriker
Could somebody in charge maybe have a quiet word or two with LordRahl6? He's got 6 edits to his name so far and not one of them is without problems in spelling, grammar and/or structure (natter and indentation).
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AnoBakaDesu
04:07:12 PM 16th Sep 2014
edited by AnoBakaDesu
Redirect them to this thread. I'll send a PM right away.

The rest he'll have to look up in Administrivia.How To Write An Example. Can't stress enough how imperative it is to read it all.

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Larkmarn
Medium: Western Animation
07:25:15 AM 16th Sep 2014
Kinda worrisome edit here.

The edit reason is worrisome because it feels a bit possessive and doesn't seem to have any idea of what Knight of Cerebus actually is. I can't be certain because the edit itself is entirely without context. Plus they added a... banner? I don't know what to call it but a random hunk of text in irregular format telling people not to add any more (which is odd because I'm not even finding any entries in the history).
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SeptimusHeap
06:23:18 AM 16th Sep 2014
That's Wikipedia formatting that they are using ... the Wikipedia counterpart of our %%.

Now, I see that Knight of Cerebus us frequently misused and that we need to check on the usage it gets, but that edit reason is not quite an accurate description of the trope, either.
Larkmarn
07:25:15 AM 16th Sep 2014
Yeah, I'd say it's less accurate than what I usually see it used for, to be honest.

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supergod
Medium:
02:31:00 AM 16th Sep 2014
I know this isn't the best place for it, and that a lot of mods tend to stay away from the Darth Wiki pages, but since very few people actually use the discussion pages (and taking it to the locked entries thread didn't work), I thought I'd give it a shot over here.

Regarding the Jeph Loeb entry on the Fallen Creator page, Hush shouldn't be listed as an example. It's not anywhere near being a critical failure like the article implies. It's also very popular with fans and is even a bit of a favorite with a lot of Batman fans. It's one of the first books recommended to people looking for more recent Batman stories. IGN has it ranked at the 10th best Batman story of all time. There are even reviewers who call it one of Loeb's best written works. There's also an article somewhere explaining why it's "overrated" (which it couldn't be unless a lot of people liked it in the first place). And if it's at all helpful, it also has a 4.5 star rating on Amazon and a 4.2/5 on Goodreads with over 13,000 votes.

There are some other questionable entries there, but this one definitely shouldn't be on the page, since it requires more than just personal opinion. A lot of people obviously like the book. Loeb himself is considered a fallen creator, but it's not because of Hush.
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shoboni
08:21:43 PM 15th Sep 2014
A lot of those pages listing horrible works have questionable entries.

SeptimusHeap
02:31:00 AM 16th Sep 2014
Actually, the discussion pages for these articles do get regular discussion.

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hodges14
Medium:
12:25:20 PM 15th Sep 2014
Trying to add a nightmare fuel page for NFL Quarterbacks On Facebook, but typing it into the search box doesn't seem to launch a blank page. How do I create the nightmare fuel subpage?
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DracMonster
12:16:45 PM 15th Sep 2014
You'd need to type in the url. Or just go to NightmareFuel.NFL Quarterbacks On Facebook.
hodges14
12:23:32 PM 15th Sep 2014
Oh, so it's a period instead of a slash mark now? Didn't realize, thanks!
Fighteer
moderator
12:25:20 PM 15th Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
Slash and period mean the same thing to the URL parser; the difference is whether the namespace is displayed in the output.

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N8han11
Medium:
09:55:00 AM 15th Sep 2014
see/hide 1 replies  
Fighteer
moderator
09:55:00 AM 15th Sep 2014
Please use our Image Pickin' forum for these topics.

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ArsThaumaturgis
Medium:
08:23:53 AM 15th Sep 2014
The trope page for "Rousseau Was Right" notes that Roosseau didn't hold that people are fundamentally good, but rather that they're fundametally amoral, and inclined to act in their own self-interest. Given this, why is the trope named "Rousseau Was Right"?
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DarkHunter
09:29:21 PM 14th Sep 2014
edited by DarkHunter
Don't think of the trope as saying people are fundamentally good, but rather that people are fundamentally not evil.

The trope page actually says that Rousseau held that people are born a blank slate (amoral), inclined to act in their own self-interest but not maliciously. In other words, you might rephrase it not as "People are born good", but "People are born innocent". Generally, when an innocent person does wrong, it's because they did not know it was wrong, hence it can be held as not evil on their part.

The trope describes a story wherein evil is never an in-born trait. No matter what, every living thing starts out not-evil. They may become evil later in their life, but they didn't start that way.

ArsThaumaturgis
08:23:53 AM 15th Sep 2014
But the trope page does state that it's about a setting in which people are fundamentally good, or at least inclined towards it: the first sentence indicates that it applies to a setting in which "everyone is born as a moral Blank Slate ... with a natural inclination to goodness" (emphasis mine), then goes on to say that Rousseau "did not philosophize that humans in their natural state were actually "good"". The intervening paragraphs further describe people has having some degree of good in them (as in stating that "... some spark of goodness will tend to remain ...").

The paragraph that describes Rousseau's philosophy seems at the moment to be included in order to clarify that Rousseau's philosophy wasn't actually in line with what the trope describes.

I do agree that Rousseau's philosophy could be described as "people are born amoral/innocent", but that doesn't seem to be what the trope describes.

Perhaps I should take this to the Trope Repair Shop?

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SeptimusHeap
Medium:
07:38:49 AM 15th Sep 2014
Adaptational Wimp got its examples removed by Irsis without any agreement prior that I can find.
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Fighteer
moderator
07:38:49 AM 15th Sep 2014
Suspended. Thanks for the revert.

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Ordinaryday
Medium:
05:07:17 AM 15th Sep 2014
What's the procedure/polite thing to do in relation to some of your edits being deleted - I have had several of my examples deleted from trope pages because obviously the deleter doesnt agree that it fits into the page - but I disagree, I feel it fits perfectly and completely disagree with their deletion!

is it appropriate to simply put it back up or is there a discussion board where you can ask whether or not the example fits on that page or a different page?
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tdgoodrich1
08:49:28 PM 14th Sep 2014
Don't put it back, that's edit warring and grounds for a tap on the shoulder from one of the mods. Take it to the article's discussion page linked at the top of the article.
Candi
09:36:12 PM 14th Sep 2014
And thank you for asking first. :)
lexicon
10:57:39 PM 14th Sep 2014
You can also bring it here to get it attention or the 'is this an example' thread. You might not get a lot of people's input but since this person disagrees with it you need someone else to say it's a valid example.

Did the person leave an edit reason for the deletion? Things shouldn't be removed without a reason.
TheOneWhoTropes
03:17:39 AM 15th Sep 2014
Also note that on some pages that have been attacked by vandals, if you edited between the time the vandal first struck and the time it was dealt with, your edit might have been deleted when one of the mods (or Septimus Heap) has restore the page to an earlier version. Always check the history of the article if you find your edits deleted - they could be giving valid reasons.
SeptimusHeap
04:23:29 AM 15th Sep 2014
Which page are we talking about, by the way? I am guessing Protagonist-Centered Morality but I don't have the bandwidth to drag myself through the history.
Ordinaryday
04:47:02 AM 15th Sep 2014
it was for edits on Protagonist-Centered Morality and Appeal To Worse Problems and several other pages. I always familiarise myself with a trope before I add examples to it and I am aware that many examples are subjective (such is the nature of fiction) I definitely see how they fit into the trope and if someone wants to remove one of my examples I would appreciate an explanation in the deletion bar as to why the example does not fit into the trope.
Irene
04:56:47 AM 15th Sep 2014
Simply put, was an edit reason ever once given? If not, it's best to just PM the person and point out the edit.

If yours may not be accurate(sometimes what we think is correct really isn't), and they had a reason to remove yours, it's required they explain the reason to not confuse you.
Ordinaryday
04:59:41 AM 15th Sep 2014
No reason was given. If a message was sent saying something like "this example doesn't really fit because you are referring to [x] while this trope more refers to [y]" I would be cool, but a lot of my examples have been deleted without any explanation which does nothing to dispel any notion that my example did not fit into the trope properly.

SeptimusHeap
05:07:17 AM 15th Sep 2014
No entry of yours was removed from Appeal To Worse Problems, it was just shifted elsewhere. Also, for Protagonist-Centered Morality, remember that general examples (some of which you added) aren't really desired.

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RayAP9
Medium:
08:57:03 PM 14th Sep 2014
At what point should a query on a Headscratchers pages be moved to the Discussion page?

For example:

Troper 1: Why does X _______?
Troper 2: Because ________.
Troper 3: But what about ____________?
Troper 4: Well, that might due to _______.
Troper 2: Or maybe _______________.

Should everything have just stopped and gone to the discussion before Troper 3 even stepped in?
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Fighteer
moderator
08:57:03 PM 14th Sep 2014
Yes.

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Gitaxias
Medium:
07:45:56 PM 14th Sep 2014
How would one namespace a description and list of tropes for a game mod? If there isn't a precedent, I was thinking it could go Video Game/<game>/Mods/<mod>, for example, "Video Game/Minecraft/Mods/Thaumcraft". This would make it easy to find them, without cluttering things up too much.
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DracMonster
11:49:42 AM 7th Sep 2014
edited by DracMonster
Right now they go under Video Game (EG: VideoGame.Garrys Mod)

Having said that, I do like your idea of making it a subpage, but that would need to be officially hammered out as policy.
SeptimusHeap
11:50:46 AM 7th Sep 2014
You put them under VideoGame//<Name of the mod in question>.

Worth noting that the scheme you are proposing isn't possible with our current URL system.
Gitaxias
10:50:08 PM 8th Sep 2014
How would it be impossible to do that with the URL system? does it only go to 2 layers of subpages or something? Also, just to make sure you know, I am talking about things which are definitely mods, and could not be considered games in their own right.
SeptimusHeap
11:23:48 PM 8th Sep 2014
Yes, only two layers of subpages.

Regarding the namespace, all game mods, even if they aren't games in their own right, go into VideoGame/.
RayAP9
07:45:56 PM 14th Sep 2014
edited by RayAP9
Ack

Please disregard

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SatoshiBakura
Medium:
05:59:15 PM 14th Sep 2014
So, do we need to hold a Crowner for Trope Repair Shop threads? We seem to be heading to a resolution on the Bigger Bad thread, but we haven't had a Crowner. Should we have a Crowner, and if we do, how do we start a Crowner?
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SeptimusHeap
08:02:14 AM 14th Sep 2014
Your description change seems to have agreement, at least. A rename will need a Single Proposition crowner asking "Rename Bigger Bad?" first.
SatoshiBakura
08:24:00 AM 14th Sep 2014
Alright. But how is a crowner held?
DracMonster
08:49:34 AM 14th Sep 2014
Go forth unto How Crowners Work and be enlightened, young one!
SatoshiBakura
05:59:15 PM 14th Sep 2014
Alright! Crowner has been hooked. Thank you for your help! Now we will hope that misuse will stop.

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TheNerfGuy
Medium:
05:50:23 PM 14th Sep 2014
edited by TheNerfGuy
What should be done about an entry if something in it is called a Game Breaker only to later be referred to as Awesome, but Impractical? To elaborate, one entry calls X a Game Breaker at first but, after analyzing its inherent flaws and difficulties, it is suddenly called Awesome, but Impractical later in the entry.
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Bisected8
02:46:47 PM 14th Sep 2014
edited by Bisected8
It's probably best to pull both examples to the page discussion and...discuss. Although it would probably be OK to work it out yourself and adjust the article accordingly - with an edit reason explaining why - if you're familiar enough with the work - someone can always pull the examples to discussion if they disagree
SeptimusHeap
03:09:55 PM 14th Sep 2014
Game Breaker is a YMMV trope, meaning that its applicability to a given situation (including one that is objectively Awesome, but Impractical) will depend upon a player's skill. If a player is supremely good at the "impractical" part both can apply.
Karxrida
05:21:10 PM 14th Sep 2014
edited by Karxrida
Game Breakers are almost always the complete opposite of Awesome, but Impractical since they make whatever game you're playing significantly easier, and are Difficult but Awesome at worst. The only kind of G.B. that I can see also doubling as A.B.I. are those that are heavily Random Number God reliant but reap major rewards for whoever got luckier, like OHKO moves in Pokemon.
Fighteer
moderator
05:50:23 PM 14th Sep 2014
Game Breaker gets misused for "thing that I don't like because it beats me a lot".

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TrollBrutal
Medium:
04:37:30 PM 14th Sep 2014
edited by TrollBrutal
It's really ok to remove tropes from a Historical-Domain Character / Useful Notes people citing that it's done with Creators in general?

Example

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=UsefulNotes.WinstonChurchill

This was really informative and overall neutral. And the "guy" has his fair share of fictional portrayals too
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Fighteer
moderator
04:37:30 PM 14th Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
We don't trope real people, only their fictional portrayals. It doesn't matter how "interesting" it may be.

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MagBas
Medium:
04:20:34 PM 14th Sep 2014
Reading the discussion page to Moral Myopia, i noted that Nimdok said that "the internet is full of idiots". Is this okay?
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AnoBakaDesu
09:47:53 PM 7th Sep 2014
First off, scorch all "To be fair" natter on the page. And no, that extra bout was unnecessary on his end.
shoboni
05:34:33 PM 8th Sep 2014
As true as that statement is, it's still flamebait.
TrollBrutal
04:20:34 PM 14th Sep 2014
edited by TrollBrutal
null

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DracMonster
Medium:
09:51:42 AM 14th Sep 2014
edited by DracMonster
I'm not sure who swordgai is supposed to be arguing with here but apparently he just can't stop even if the other person isn't responding.
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SeptimusHeap
09:10:38 AM 14th Sep 2014
He's arguing it with whoever added Black Bullet, apparently.

Anyhow, not really a good reason for removal. I would not mind a revert.
DracMonster
09:51:42 AM 14th Sep 2014
edited by DracMonster
Hmm, had to look at the deeper history, apparently he and Dark Paladin X have a disagreement about... something. Don't care enough to parse this.

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SamCurt
Medium:
03:06:43 AM 14th Sep 2014
edited by SamCurt
Just a little question about combining meta-tropes.

Can we say a trope is "Averted and Deconstructed"...? (i.e. the deconstruction of the aversion of the trope)
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DracMonster
12:46:14 PM 9th Sep 2014
edited by DracMonster
That would actually be a Reconstruction, I think.
SamCurt
01:00:36 PM 9th Sep 2014
Or maybe I have misstated the question. My case seems to be like this:

Trope: Because of A, characters do B. (the italics part is the key of the trope)
Example: Because Bob does not do B, a very, very bad example of A happens.
Terrie
01:11:45 PM 9th Sep 2014
You're going to have actual examples, because what you've set up is simply something that shares elements of the trope, but is not the trope.
SamCurt
02:34:51 AM 14th Sep 2014
Sorry for being late in answering that. I and A Ninja With AIDS has spent a year and a half wondering how the following example is played in Mind Over Manners. The following is the current version listed in the trope page, but I have previously filed it under double subversion.

SeptimusHeap
03:06:43 AM 14th Sep 2014
This thread may be able to help.

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TheNerfGuy
Medium:
06:37:27 PM 13th Sep 2014
Do Creator and Useful Notes pages have to have their Radar subpages deleted too?
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SeptimusHeap
08:57:40 AM 11th Sep 2014
Getting Crap Past the Radar is a trope, so it should not be listed for Useful Notes pages, only for works. As for creators, theoretically if a given creator uses that trope frequently enough in their works have one central listing may be of use, but in practical cases not really.
TheNerfGuy
09:47:17 AM 11th Sep 2014
edited by TheNerfGuy
Ok. However, I will give an example of one: Radar.Abbott And Costello. Would this page need to be cut?

[EDIT]: Would WMG subpages for Creators need to be cut as well?
Fighteer
moderator
10:19:12 AM 11th Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
If the creator article pulls double duty as a work article, then it may have subpages normally reserved for work articles. All examples on these subpages need to be about the creator's work, not the creator as a person (or persons).
Prfnoff
09:55:54 AM 12th Sep 2014
TheNerfGuy has been busy Cut Listing Heartwarming, Funny and Awesome pages for comedians. If it's not OK to have those subpages, do we just toss them all on pages like Funny.Recorded And Stand Up Comedy or give up entirely on listing Heartwarming, Funny or Awesome moments for comedians?
SeptimusHeap
11:11:29 AM 12th Sep 2014
Pages for comedians are combined work and creator pages. They can get subpages. So no, these cut requests are not appropriate unless the entries on the cutlisted pages are entirely about the people and not their personas.
Prfnoff
06:19:16 AM 13th Sep 2014
If they're not appropriate, then why did the Cut Masters let every one of them go through?
DracMonster
07:46:34 AM 13th Sep 2014
Short version: the poor cut masters are a bit overworked right now.
TheNerfGuy
06:37:27 PM 13th Sep 2014
Shit! I didn't know that some Creator pages were allowed to have certain subpages. I really didn't. I was just acting on information regarding an earlier ATT query that involved Creator pages with audience reaction subpages (such as YMMV, Awesome/Funny/Heartwarming, etc.). I'm sorry if I caused a massive amount of damage to the pages. I never meant any harm, and I was just trying to help with wiki cleanup.

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Larkmarn
Medium:
06:12:15 PM 13th Sep 2014
RyanBurns has had some weird habits.

His pet project, Creator.Gary Busey is poorly done and he's not doing a great job of taking our advice.

This is just weird.

Going through his history, he does a lot of ZCEs, which I've just messaged him about (he hasn't edited since then). I'm finding a lot of entries that are just Ax-Crazy or Gorn with either no context, or insufficient (he seems to like those two tropes).

If he keeps adding ZCEs, I'll update.
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LogoP
08:05:21 AM 7th Aug 2014
edited by LogoP
... almost nothing on that page seems to be about the man himself. Just the The Gingerdead Man, which has its own page.

Also, examples such as: Badass: He's the The Gingerdead Man are so bad it's not even funny.
theAdeptRogue
02:08:37 PM 7th Aug 2014
He's also starting to edit war about the Cruel and Unusual Death entry in that page.
AnoBakaDesu
02:18:46 PM 7th Aug 2014
Adding sinkholes like Nausea Fuel does not bode well for this page nor the troper doing mass edits on it.
Fighteer
moderator
02:18:58 PM 7th Aug 2014
edited by Fighteer
Sheer lack of effort... sigh.

I suspended that fellow; the article as it is can be cut as it offers no useful content.
Larkmarn
03:20:42 PM 7th Aug 2014
Cutlisted.

Although how did that get 20 inbounds already?!?
Larkmarn
01:39:20 PM 13th Sep 2014
edited by Larkmarn
So, yeah.

This happened.

Going through his recent edits wasn't great either...

  • Here: Misuse of tropes (The Nameless), poor grammar ("probably the least darkest"), tons of ZCEs.
  • Here: A ZCE and poor posting habits (one example's context was "see another example").
  • Here we have Word Cruft, and at the same time a lack of context.
Terrie
01:48:33 PM 13th Sep 2014
Why do we even have that page? It's nothing but ZCEs and shoehorned examples.
LogoP
02:24:17 PM 13th Sep 2014
^^ Could have lived my life without knowing that.
SeptimusHeap
02:32:49 PM 13th Sep 2014
Yep, the page is under discussion here. That discussion post at a minimum ought to be removed - it's Troper Tales and completely offtopic to boot.
Fighteer
moderator
06:12:15 PM 13th Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
Gave Ryan Burns the permanent boot. We don't need torture porn fetishists here. I'm inclined to cut the Guinea Pig thing by fiat, but I suppose we should let the P5 do its work.

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Withoutaname
Medium:
01:15:24 PM 13th Sep 2014
What's the hardest sci-fi TV series/show/movie you've ever seen?
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Deadbeatloser22
moderator
01:15:24 PM 13th Sep 2014
Discussion like that goes in the Forums.

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lexicon
Medium:
11:11:22 AM 13th Sep 2014
Kalaong added The Three Faces of Eve to Characters/Grenadier saying that one character fills all three roles. I took it to the 'Is this an example?' thread and then I took it away saying, "The trio is supposed to be three characters and the Femme Fatale is not simply "flirtatious" while the Yamato Nadeshiko is particularly mature and domestically inclined." Kalaong then added it back.
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SeptimusHeap
01:02:01 AM 13th Sep 2014
You didn't cite the thread in your reasons. Maybe you should.
lexicon
10:31:46 AM 13th Sep 2014
Him adding it back when I took it away is already an edit war, right? I don't think I should take it away again because that seems like it's participating in the war.
SeptimusHeap
11:11:22 AM 13th Sep 2014
Deadbeatloser22 already fixed the problem for you.

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ryanasaurus0077
Medium:
08:57:39 AM 13th Sep 2014
Regarding potholed trope names, we may as well create redirects for them if we're to put down what it's meant to be in that particular situation, right?
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Fighteer
moderator
12:41:12 PM 4th Sep 2014
Redirects Are Free, but you should exercise some some responsibility with creating them, because of the potential to mislead people as to what the trope means.
ryanasaurus0077
12:53:17 PM 4th Sep 2014
So Complaining About Pamphlets You Havent Read would be an OK redirect for Complaining about Shows You Don't Watch in the context of political pamphlets such as "Common Sense" (as demonstrated on Liberty's Kids) and Complaining About Singers You Dont Hear would be an OK redirect for the same in the context of music, right? (Or would the redirect mention Music instead of Singers?)
Fighteer
moderator
12:57:22 PM 4th Sep 2014
I'd really rather not. It seems unnecessary. In fact, the rules for writing examples mean you very specifically are not supposed to pothole trope names in that way, at least not before the colon.
AnoBakaDesu
01:32:20 PM 4th Sep 2014
As long as it starts with same alphabetisation and doesn't spoil anything (potholers are often lazy with the context-adding), it's doable for me.
Larkmarn
01:40:08 PM 4th Sep 2014
Redirects Are Free, but some restraint should still be exercised. I mean, free samples are free but it doesn't mean it's not rude to walk up and take the whole tray.
Discar
01:46:20 PM 4th Sep 2014
^^ No, that's against policy. Don't pothole A Boy and His X as A Boy And His Giant Robot or whatever. Just use A Boy and His X. There should be no potholes before the colon; that is, the trope name seen in the list needs to be the real one. Redirects are fine, but that's it.
ryanasaurus0077
01:47:18 PM 4th Sep 2014
edited by ryanasaurus0077
So redirects are OK before the colon, but not potholes? Just making sure, is all.
Fighteer
moderator
02:04:27 PM 4th Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
Unless you're making a redirect for the purpose of getting around that rule. That's poor sportsmanship. Unneeded redirects get cut fairly quickly.
ryanasaurus0077
02:31:53 PM 4th Sep 2014
That's not my intent. There are, for instance, shows to watch, stuff to read, music to listen to... and those are just three ways Complaining about Shows You Don't Watch could be linked to, including via redirects.

Basically, I'm talking specific situation redirects. If it's a book or pamphlet that's being complained about, I propose the trope be redirected to Complaining About Stuff You Dont Read for such situations. If it's a music album or the like that's being complained about, the proper redirect, in my opinion, would be Complaining About Music You Dont Listen To. Personally, I see some use to them. Does this site? Just wondering.

Of course, an Administrivia page on the matter would be of use here.
rodneyAnonymous
04:26:05 PM 4th Sep 2014
edited by rodneyAnonymous
That would in fact be your apparent intent... It would be making redirects to change the name of the trope, as it appears in an example list, before the colon, which is what "that rule" is trying to prevent. The responses above are trying to tell you that's kind of uncool, regardless of how it's justified or if it's technically not rule breaking since it would be a redirect instead of a pothole.

Maybe potholes and redirects also before the colon should be verboten; always the "real" name should be used at the start of an example in an example list.
ryanasaurus0077
05:11:29 PM 4th Sep 2014
That's where Administrivia would step in. Perhaps it'd be best if someone drafted an Administrivia YKTTW on the matter.
Fighteer
moderator
05:48:55 PM 4th Sep 2014
Or I could just add the appropriate clause to Creating New Redirects.
rodneyAnonymous
07:16:57 PM 4th Sep 2014
edited by rodneyAnonymous
Yes that is what I mean. I don't think a new Administrivia page is necessary... just a (pretty minor) modification to what's already there.
ryanasaurus0077
08:05:15 PM 4th Sep 2014
edited by ryanasaurus0077
...Damn! How are specific situations involving a trope to be addressed now?

Seriously though, now we have a bunch of other questions to answer about specific situations involving tropes. I mean no stone left unturned. Seriously. :S
Discar
08:26:49 PM 4th Sep 2014
@ rodney: There's no need to limit it like that. Most redirects are intended to be used as replacement trope names. Gender alternatives, minor grammatical differences, UK vs US spelling...there are numerous perfectly legitimate reasons to use a redirect. Just because we've got one troper who wants a redirect for every single situation is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
rodneyAnonymous
09:20:41 PM 4th Sep 2014
edited by rodneyAnonymous
"How are specific situations involving a trope to be addressed now?"

They don't need to be. Shouldn't be, in a sense. The pamphlet thing is an example of Complaining about Shows You Don't Watch, despite being in a different medium than that name implies.

That exact non-issue applies to the name of this site.
SeptimusHeap
02:02:18 AM 5th Sep 2014
Such redirects make it harder to police wicks. Also, they can create duplicate entries when both the trope and the redirect are listed. So in name of all what is holy and horny don't allow them. Please.
SamCurt
12:11:04 PM 9th Sep 2014
What if a UK English user typed the UK spelling and found it redlinked?
Bisected8
12:28:34 PM 9th Sep 2014
edited by Bisected8
^ On Administrivia.American And Commonwealth Spellings it says you should create the redirect (presumably after making sure it wasn't just a typo or misremembering the title).
Pastykake
10:39:33 AM 10th Sep 2014
edited by Pastykake
So if I Have Your Wife was potholed in "I Have Your Mother" before the colon, that's wrong? Because I've seen that in several places, and if it had said "Wife" and then gone on to explain how the person's mother was kidnapped, I would've been very confused.
SeptimusHeap
10:47:14 AM 10th Sep 2014
Yes, that'd be wrong. When I rewrite such problem entries I fit the correcting text in the example writeup. Providing additional information to the trope name is what the example text is for.
Fighteer
moderator
12:12:56 PM 10th Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
A trope name is a name for a trope. It doesn't change based on the context of the example. As Septimus says, explain the variation in the example text, not by potholing the trope name.
rodneyAnonymous
08:57:39 AM 13th Sep 2014
That is a good point and I'd like to revise my earlier response:

"How are specific situations involving a trope to be addressed now?"

After the colon.

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ryanasaurus0077
Medium: Western Animation
10:26:16 PM 12th Sep 2014
What is the policy for potholes in page quotes, such as that on Pinky and the Brain, for instance?
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Fighteer
moderator
09:41:46 PM 2nd Sep 2014
It is that tropes should never be potholed in quotes. Works may be directly linked, but potholes should be avoided.
Nohbody
10:16:38 AM 3rd Sep 2014
And because it was apparently an issue for at least one person in the forum thread discussing page quotes, to make things clear the prohibition against trope potholes is only for quotes put at the top of a work/trope page. Quotes as part of an entry or on the Quotes page are fine, as long as the potholes are relevant, and not someone trying to be cutesy with an All-Blue Entry.
MathsAngelicVersion
12:23:33 PM 3rd Sep 2014
edited by MathsAngelicVersion
What about consoles, creators and companies, like the pothole to PlayStation 3 in the page quote on DarthWiki.Idiot Programming?
Fighteer
moderator
12:36:29 PM 3rd Sep 2014
Nope, both of those are invalid. If the quote directly cites the PlayStation 3, you can leave it a bluelink, but those potholes are verboten.
Larkmarn
12:41:19 PM 3rd Sep 2014
So for example, if a page quote is "Boy, Yakuza 5 is the best game on the PlayStation 3," that would be kosher.

However, a page quote like "Man, the best game on my favorite console isn't coming stateside" has incorrect potholes in each case.
MathsAngelicVersion
12:45:31 PM 3rd Sep 2014
Okay, thanks. The potholes have been removed.
ryanasaurus0077
12:47:31 PM 3rd Sep 2014
So bluelinking Take Over the World but not potholing Pinky's line to Once an Episode would be all right? Just making sure.
Fighteer
moderator
01:21:52 PM 3rd Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
Don't bluelink tropes, regardless. I suppose an exception could be made if the quoted source was intentionally and specifically calling out the trope, but that's the sort of gray area that leads inexorably to misuse by overly enthusiastic tropers.
eroock
03:56:00 AM 6th Sep 2014
edited by eroock
If we really were seriously about this rule, it would mean to clean up 20% of tropes pages, starting with What the Hell, Hero?.

I think it's playful which should be a high priority for using this website, no?
Nohbody
08:22:32 AM 6th Sep 2014
That the policy isn't always followed simply means that not all violations have been caught. This isn't exactly a tiny wiki, even if not up to the ZOMGWTFBBQ proportions of The Other Wiki.

(And those WTHH potholes are now ex-potholes. :P )

As for "playful", as FE's forum sig puts it: "Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty", and those are listed in descending order of importance.
captainmarkle
02:04:38 PM 6th Sep 2014
Let me get this straight. Don't link tropes in to quotes is the basic point? If I'm wrong my apologies.
DracMonster
02:37:46 PM 6th Sep 2014
Correct.
captainmarkle
02:39:31 PM 6th Sep 2014
edited by captainmarkle
Alright. I have a few pages of my own to clear up, then. Thanks.

EDIT 2: Wait, I just read an earlier post about how it's fine in an entry but NOT at the top of a page. I have just made several mistakes. Give me a moment.
eroock
11:54:22 AM 8th Sep 2014
>>"Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty"

Why does this apply to quotes only and not, let's say, captions? I don't see the bigger picture.
Fighteer
moderator
12:44:57 PM 8th Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
Clear, Concise, Witty applies to everything, but it is also not an excuse to chainsaw indiscriminately. Rational thought needs to be employed, along the lines of the following tests:

  1. Does it accurately illustrate/describe the thing in question?
  2. Is it unnecessarily wordy or elaborate?
  3. Is it amusing? Interesting? Does it hold the attention of the reader?

eroock
02:00:50 PM 9th Sep 2014
How do potholed quotes violate the above?
Candi
04:08:18 PM 9th Sep 2014
A page quote, particularly for a trope, needs to be able to stand on its own without help. If a quote doesn't make sense unless potholed, than it's not a good quote for the page/trope.

I personally brought one quote to the General Page Quotes Discussion thread several months ago because it was weak even when potholed, and without the potholes, it didn't apply to the trope at all.
eroock
01:10:23 AM 10th Sep 2014
I see, but then we must distinguish between quotes that only make sense in context and those that stand on their own (with potholes added for fun). Potholes have a way of widening my understanding for tropes, it's one of my favorite features on here. And it saddens me to see it partially suppressed for dubious reasons.
Candi
07:47:24 PM 10th Sep 2014
The reasons are not dubious. The page quote must stand as an example of the trope on its own, without requiring hovering over blue links to 'get' it. That's very straightforward.

If you read through the General Quotes Discussion thread, there have been more than a few quotes pulled for requiring context to understand, rather than, again, standing on their own.
Kuruni
08:07:24 PM 10th Sep 2014
edited by Kuruni
I suggest add this to Sinkhole.
Telcontar
moderator
11:16:26 PM 10th Sep 2014
Good idea, Kuruni; done.
eroock
03:26:04 AM 11th Sep 2014
Candi, the quote from What the Hell, Hero? stood on its own, but Nohbody removing the potholes nonetheless (see above). Who decided if a quote is self-containing? This subjectivity in the rule definition is going to cause trouble.
SeptimusHeap
04:06:02 AM 11th Sep 2014
Like many other such issues on the wiki; someone makes a decision, if nobody disagrees it stays and if someone does disagree we have a discussion on it.

Also, if the quote on What the Hell, Hero? stands on its own (and it does) then that is further argument in favour of the removal of the potholes in it.
Kuruni
06:21:25 AM 11th Sep 2014
Just need one thing to clear up. Since Quotes subpage is pretty much collection of page quotes, this apply there as well, right?
Fighteer
moderator
06:23:48 AM 11th Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
I don't really see the point in going through the effort of policing quotes pages for pothole use. I mean, sure, it's consistent with the policy, but it's an awful lot of effort for very little value. I certainly won't tell you not to do it, though. That's just my personal opinion.
Candi
07:04:17 AM 11th Sep 2014
Usually over in the General Page Quote Discussion thread, we only worry about removing potholes in a quote on the page quote if it's going to be used on the main page. Since potholes are allowed in quotes down in the examples, and usually some to all of the quotes on the quotes page are reflected between the main and quotes page, there's not a whole lot of reason to remove the potholes unless All-Blue Entry or somesuch is violated.

erook, Nohbody removed the potholes after it was mentioned in the GPQD thread. That's where quote replacement, alerts for potholes, and moderator thoughts on the quotes, both with and without mod hats, are brought up and discussed. When something is present to the Troper Hive Mind in the proper thread with proper discussion, and changed according to guidelines, rules, or Hive Mind decision, the person who ultimately does the edit is just the one doing the work, not the one making the decision. (And Nohbody does a crapload of work, particularly in the Real Life Section Maintenance thread.)

I also have to agree with Septimus that if the What the Hell, Hero? quote was fine on its own, it didn't need the potholes.

Incidentally, I have never seen anything that says that the quote at the top of the page can't be part of an example lower down and potholed, as long as it follows the rules for writing an example. I know that when the tropers in the thread have had to replace bad quotes, ones from the page in question have been used.
Fighteer
moderator
07:13:48 AM 11th Sep 2014
Good point. It seems more like a style choice for the page quote, not a rule for quotes in general.
eroock
01:08:47 AM 12th Sep 2014
>>Nohbody removed the potholes after it was mentioned in the GPQD thread.

Can you point me to it, couldn't find it.
SeptimusHeap
03:07:48 AM 12th Sep 2014
I see the issue. The potholing rule was only mentioned in Ask The Tropers, not in the thread.
Nohbody
10:26:16 PM 12th Sep 2014
In regards to policing, I don't go actively seeking them out, but when something comes to my attention I take a look at its page. "[C]omes to my attention" includes here in ATT, forum mentions (a lot of my non-watchlist edits are from getting distracted from a forum post by a wick :P ), or that I come across it when looking to address another issue.

As for the rule regarding page quote potholes, while WTHH didn't come up in the GPQD thread, in the past the issue has been brought up there. It's not exactly a small thread, but using the google site search to search for "quote pothole" will bring up a bunch of hits on the subject from that thread.

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MattStriker
Medium:
03:21:51 PM 12th Sep 2014
Question...if there is a Darker and Edgier version of a work, does that go as an example on the base work's page?
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SeptimusHeap
03:04:15 AM 12th Sep 2014
On the page for said version. If this version has its own page, it would go there. If both original and the DAE version share a page, it goes there.
Larkmarn
03:21:51 PM 12th Sep 2014
You can put on the original:

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Iva
Medium: Western Animation
02:39:23 PM 12th Sep 2014
Hi,

I've been working on a page for a 1980s animated series and I'm about to work on pages for episodes, comic books and characters and I have a couple of questions:

1. There are 14 comic books in a series, but there is one that was published last year, as in sixteen and a half years after those 14. How do I list it?

2. How do I list some ambiguously canon comic books and canon short stories?

3. What is an acceptable format for an episode or a comic book? Do I write some sort of a plot summary (3-5 rows or so) and then add the tropes or..?

4. Also, how about images for episodes and comic books?

5. How do I index all of the above pages?

Thank you in advance.
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SeptimusHeap
03:14:09 PM 11th Sep 2014
Greetings,

Can't answer all questions on a phone, but How Indexing Works.
DarkHunter
03:57:02 PM 11th Sep 2014
1 + 2. A series that covers multiple mediums like this often has a Franchise page, with tropes that apply to the entire series (show, comics, short stories), and links to subpages (the Animation page, the Comic page, etc.), where more specific tropes are put. Check out some of the pages in that link to see examples.

3. Comic books are formatted like any other work: a brief description of the comic and the initial plot, followed by tropes. No need to list a complete summary of the plot.

I'm not sure about episodes... I believe that falls under Recap pages, and I don't generally read those.

4. Just find an image you think is a good one for the comic/episode, upload it using TvTropes Image Uploader, and then paste the resulting link onto that comic/episode's page. So long as the image doesn't contain anything NSFW, you should be good.

5. See How Indexing Works
Iva
04:49:14 PM 11th Sep 2014
edited by Iva
Thank you for 3, 4 and 5. As for the rest, these things itself are a part of a very large franchise themselves (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/StarWarsExpandedUniverse), which is why I was confused in the first place. Sorry, should've specified that.

Would what these people have done be acceptable? http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Recap/MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic
DarkHunter
02:39:23 PM 12th Sep 2014
Again, I'm not very familiar with Recap pages, but from the looks of things, that does seem to be the right way to set up a Recap page.

The comic book can be listed in the Comics folder, the short stories in the "Other" folder. As for those that are ambiguously canon, you can perhaps just make a note of their "semi-canon" status in parenthesis next to their entry in the list.

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LogoP
Medium:
02:37:08 PM 12th Sep 2014
edited by LogoP
Personal attack here. On an already heated discussion.

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Achaemenid
05:15:18 PM 9th Sep 2014
I added a generic "calm down m'kay" post. Bumped because this looks ugly.
DracMonster
06:46:19 PM 9th Sep 2014
edited by DracMonster
Actually, that is the world's slowest flame war. The OP is from 2011, and ading's reply was to a post almost a year old.

Some people just can't let it go, let it go...
Candi
12:14:55 AM 10th Sep 2014
...I can thoroughly understand wanting to reply to an old post. But to go ahead and do so, when it's long past relevancy most of the time, and not even to make a reasonable comment? I don't get some people.
SeptimusHeap
01:38:14 AM 10th Sep 2014
I suspect that people often don't notice the timestamps.
Achaemenid
02:06:25 AM 10th Sep 2014
edited by Achaemenid
kenning sent me a polite PM explaining his/her side of the story. I advised him/her to take it here and talk it out.
kenning
02:39:29 PM 10th Sep 2014
edited by kenning
(this is basically what I sent to Achaemenid, except with an increased commitment to not engage further on that discussion)

Hi - I'm guessing the ATT entry on this is about my edit on this, but I'm a bit confused. Specifically, I don't think I made a personal attack on ading by stating that their interventions were putting me off involvement on the site. They are, and for reasons I would have thought obvious.

While I wish I'd not responded at all, I was merely responding to claims made. Ading stated that no one had said anything about throttling me, and that I had falsely claimed this had happened "frequently". I explained why this was not the case.

I'm aware the topic is a potentially sensitive one. I'm still frankly baffled at the number of people who seem to see anything critical of "some of my best friends are x" defenses as "fighting words".

I'm also disturbed that my response to ading is apparently being tagged as a personal attack (etc.) while previous hostile/aggressive statements by various tropers including ading, about my personality, motivations, and being such as to inspire wishes to throttle me, are apparently viewed as harmless.

I obviously respect the right of the site to set its own standards, and will just try to avoid that part of the site in future/keep down the urge to respond if I read it. But I'm a bit baffled that my post to ading apparently count as violations of "rudeness is not cool" and ading's, and others', don't.
Fighteer
moderator
03:26:17 PM 10th Sep 2014
You're being unnecessarily confrontational. Nobody owns tropes, even if you proposed and launched them. Best thing to do here is ignore it instead of taking it personally.
kenning
05:18:00 PM 10th Sep 2014
I've never claimed to “own” the trope. It's been edited by plenty of other tropers, for the better.

I've reacted to people who've used the discussion page to vent aggression at me because they didn't like a wording they were free to edit.

That's “unnecessarily confrontational” and personal, but accusing me of lying, persecution, personality problems and “making” people want to throttle me is not?

I understand you want to avoid squabbling, and I'll bow out and keep out. But I wish this had been more even-handed.

LogoP
05:30:49 PM 10th Sep 2014
Methinks you're reading too much into this. No one said any of the above. Apart from a generic, hyperbolic "I want to throttle this trope's creator" comment, which was probably meant as a joke.
DracMonster
05:59:50 PM 10th Sep 2014
I agree. I'm not seeing this persecution you're talking about either. I do see others getting snappish, but mainly in response to your own unnecessarily hostile posts.
kenning
01:55:43 PM 11th Sep 2014
So: other troper says "I want to throttle this trope's creator": perfectly normal banter, and totally relevant to discussing a trope.

My response of "Maybe suggest an edit instead?": unnecessarily hostile and overly confrontational. Totally starting it.

Other troper's "If I can't use "some of my best friends are..." as a defense against claims about prejudice, then that's like if courts used 'guilty until proved innocent'": no imaginary persecution to see here.

My "That really doesn't actually follow. But if "some of my best friends" is your only line of defense, then yes, that could be a problem.": vile hate-mongering on a completely imaginary basis.

Other troper's "It says a lot about your motivation that you're proud people want to throttle you" (different troper): not a bizarre dig at someone's personality, just a bit snappish.

My "I don't think discussing further works here" in response to the above: pattern of "ugly" personal attacks.

"You made the whole "throttling" thing up anyway" in counter-response: a well-founded, mature attempt to bring things to a civilized conclusion.

Look, if your point is just: disengage, pay attention to date stamps, step back if you find discussion pages get rude - other people made those points, and well, above. Your contributions, not so much. Especially if you think this is the way to dissuade someone who has a hard time letting go.
LogoP
07:52:26 AM 12th Sep 2014
edited by LogoP
Except that's not how things happened at all. You reacted to a joking hyperbole with hostility, people called you out and you proceeded to react with even more hostility. Stop taking things so personally & get over it.
Fighteer
moderator
02:37:08 PM 12th Sep 2014
Kenning will get a chance to explain himself in Edit Banned.

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SeptimusHeap
Medium:
12:08:55 PM 12th Sep 2014
hoomuzu keeps adding Zero Context Examples despite being messaged over it.
see/hide 1 replies  
Fighteer
moderator
12:08:55 PM 12th Sep 2014
Suspended.

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ryanasaurus0077
Medium:
12:08:32 PM 12th Sep 2014
Anyone besides me think Zero-Context Example should also cover comments on YKTTW's? Because I asked an important question of DAN004 and all he said was "yes" without explaining what the "yes" was to.
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bitemytail
10:04:24 AM 12th Sep 2014
You could always ask for clarification or PM him to get more details.
AnoBakaDesu
10:11:49 AM 12th Sep 2014
Examples in a YKTTW workshop should always expand on how they are an example of said YKTTW. No exceptions.
SeptimusHeap
11:09:40 AM 12th Sep 2014
He's talking about comments.

Zero-Context Example is a policy on example writeups, but for the sake of useful discussion (and maybe some training of good editing) ask 'em to explain their arguments.
Fighteer
moderator
12:08:32 PM 12th Sep 2014
If ZCEs are being introduced through YKTTW, that's not a problem with the policy, it's a problem with YKTTW.

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HannahHypolita
Medium:
11:10:24 AM 12th Sep 2014
Trying to create a new article for something and it keeps telling me the heartwarming/funny/etc pages aren't indexed when I know they are—I created them in the indexes and checked twice when I was told they weren't indexed properly.

Also, how do you create a YMMV page?
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DracMonster
11:00:11 AM 12th Sep 2014
edited by DracMonster
You'll need to manually enter the URL.

For instance, if I wanted to make the YMMV page for VideoGame.Space Run, I would go to the page, go up to the address bar and replace "VideoGame" with "YMMV"
SeptimusHeap
11:10:24 AM 12th Sep 2014
"Created them in the indexes" as in "added them to indexes before they were actually edited"? Yeah, indexing won't work then.

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ryanasaurus0077
Medium:
10:23:47 AM 12th Sep 2014
Where would I suggest a new feature? Here or one of the subfora?
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SeptimusHeap
10:21:25 AM 12th Sep 2014
Tech Wishlist or Wiki Talk if it involves wiki policy.
ryanasaurus0077
10:23:47 AM 12th Sep 2014
Wiki Talk for wiki policy and Tech Wishlist for everything else, then?

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N8han11
Medium:
09:37:07 AM 12th Sep 2014
Clipped Winged Angel is gone. Why?
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Bisected8
08:49:56 AM 12th Sep 2014
edited by Bisected8
Clipped Wing Angel - I'm guessing Clipped Winged Angel was an old redirect or something - it's showing up blue because of a page in the laconic namespace.
Fighteer
moderator
09:37:07 AM 12th Sep 2014
I put the laconic on the cutlist.

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Bisected8
Medium:
09:22:30 AM 12th Sep 2014
edited by Bisected8
What's the procedure for making new "So You Want To" pages?

Do they go through YKTTW like other tropes, or is there some sort of special procedure (since they aren't technically tropes)? I was hoping to make SoYouWantTo.Write A Metroidvania
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Fighteer
moderator
09:22:30 AM 12th Sep 2014
edited by Fighteer
As a resident of Just for Fun, So You Want To pages are basically free. But, like any meme, we don't want them overused to the point where we have SoYouWantTo.Cook Food or SoYouWantTo.Breathe Air. Exercise good judgement.

Also, you can put them through YKTTW to help gather feedback and ideas, which never hurts.

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MyFinalEdits
Medium:
08:16:31 AM 12th Sep 2014
edited by MyFinalEdits
What's the point of marking a draft in YKTTW as a favorite if it doesn't appear in the watchlist (wiki or forum)? A trope whose draft I had marked as favorite was launched a few days ago and didn't notice, and a troper had asked me about a certain example I was proposing without me realizing (he refused to add it to the example section because he needed me to sort it into one of the categories of the page). Now I have to use the trope's discussion tab to propose the example again.
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Bisected8
06:35:53 PM 11th Sep 2014
There's a separate YKTTW History (to the right of the "My Edits" button on your watchlist.

It keeps track of ones you've created, launched or commented in rather than ones you've tagged, though.
PaulA
07:36:52 PM 11th Sep 2014
Flagging a draft ykttw as a favorite adds it to the "show flags only" filter (which you can see by clicking the relevant button in the Filters box at the top of the page).

That lets you quickly see if any of the drafts you're interested in have been updated recently without having to slog through all the drafts and pick out the ones you're interested in.
MyFinalEdits
08:16:31 AM 12th Sep 2014
Ah, I see. Thanks.

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Seraphine
Medium:
12:02:47 AM 12th Sep 2014
Is it more preferable for Awesome Music to be listed under a work's Awesome tab or the YMMV page?
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PaulA
12:02:47 AM 12th Sep 2014
As it says at the top of the Awesome Music page, examples go on the work's YMMV tab. (The Awesome tab is for Awesome Moments, an unrelated thing that just happens also to be awesome.)

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PistolsAtDawn
Medium:
08:57:33 PM 11th Sep 2014
Am I allowed to add an index to Forgotten Trope without consensus? (I have a TRS open but its quite slow). I wont make any of the other changes I asked for without consensus, of course, I just want to link the Forgotten Tropes with their own pages to the main page.
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Fighteer
moderator
08:56:07 PM 11th Sep 2014
We don't index meta-tropes like that, typically. We only do it if it's a supertrope-subtrope relationship. Please let the TRS run.
PistolsAtDawn
08:57:33 PM 11th Sep 2014
edited by PistolsAtDawn
sure thing

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SgtFrog1
Medium:
07:43:14 PM 11th Sep 2014
Does the Korean written alphabet, hangul, count as a Con Lang? It is indeed a created language (by King Sejong the Great and his Hall of Worthies in the 15th century A.D. as an easier-to-understand-and-write alternative to the very complex Chinese-derived language that was in use at the time)
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DarkHunter
05:00:18 PM 9th Sep 2014
edited by DarkHunter
From the trope description (emphasis mine):

"A Con Lang (or just 'conlang') is short for 'constructed language', i.e. a language the writer, their friend, or some other associate has made up for the purpose of using in a book or show."

So, no, I do not believe hangul would qualify.
Mercy
06:17:09 AM 10th Sep 2014
Hangul is not a language anyway. It is an alphabet used to write the Korean language.
KarjamP
07:24:43 AM 10th Sep 2014
edited by KarjamP
Then it's a "Constructed script" (or "conscript" for short), which's related to a Con Lang (only, it's a writing system often invented for a specific language.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constructed_script

Also, the definition of the "trope" is too specific - it refers to any language that was invented instead of evolving from another language. Esperanto is a conlang.
PaulA
07:43:14 PM 11th Sep 2014
In general, yes, the term "conlang" can refer to languages like Esperanto that were constructed for use in the real world.

However, since the focus of this wiki is how things are used in fiction, I think it's reasonable for our Conlang page to restrict itself to conlangs used in fiction.

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eroock
Medium:
03:39:19 PM 11th Sep 2014
Does tv-tropes have any control over the thumbnails in the search results. many are outdated.
see/hide 1 replies  
SeptimusHeap
03:39:19 PM 11th Sep 2014
Nah, the Google spiders update them periodically.

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