Ask The Tropers
Have a question about tropes, the content, or how the TVTropes wiki works? No one knows this community better than the people in it, so ask away! Ask the Tropers is the page you come to when you have a question burning in your brain and the support pages didn't help. If you're looking for a trope, head over to Trope Finder. If you want to propose a new trope, pitch it to the masses at You Know, That Thing Where
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4 Sep 29th, 2016 at 7:07PMin 26 sep, chubzhac included a Non-Indicative Name in Pokemon, about the rivals. In the same day, Chytus removed this with " "Rival" is a fan term. Blue and Silver are the only characters actually called rivals in the games. If I am wrong, then please undo my edit.". 29 sep, chubzhac put this again with "While it's true that only Blue and Silver are given the Rival class, Game Freak has yet to give the character type a new or alternate name. It's not so much a fan name as it is the only name we have to call them. Also, the role the rivals are the same in each game, so they can be considered rivals even if they're not called it in-game." as edit reason. Opinions?
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The entry looks fine to me. Whether it's a fan term or not is not really relevant, as I think pretty much the entire fanbase calls them "rivals" regardless. -
I think a reminder to both about edit wars and discussion pages might be in order, though? -
It's not so much a fan name as it is the only name we have to call them"No it isn't. According to bulbapedia
, the in-game class for these characters from Gen-III is "Pokémon Trainers".
The example's existence is based entirely on those characters being called "rivals" even when that's not what they are. Even if they were called nothing else in-game, if they aren't called rivals, the whole basis on the example falls apart. It would noting that something is not being referred to as what it is not.
Whether it's a fan term or not is not really relevant, as I think pretty much the entire fanbase calls them "rivals" regardless.Yes it is. Fan Nicknames are still fanon, no matter how popular they are, unless they're actually put in the work itself. -
Kill the Non-Indicative Name example. They're not called Rivals in the game and many still fulfill that role regardless (Friendly Rival is a thing). Though it should be said that the "Rival" label is generic enough (while still being an accurate descriptor) that we can still call them that on the wiki even if it's technically a Fan Nickname.
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0 Sep 29th, 2016 at 6:06PMSome of this person's recent edits on Characters.Backstroke Of The West (courtesy link) seem questionable.
Notably, they've added ZC Es, violated Example Indentation in Trope Lists (he added "Know When to Fold 'Em" as a second-level bullet under "Run for the Border"), and some misuse (the "Death Seeker" example they added reads: "Claims she'd be happy to die alongside Allah Gold.").
I have sent them notifications in the past, and while they did establish they would improve, these edits display errors.
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1 Sep 29th, 2016 at 4:04PMLive Action TV
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4 Sep 28th, 2016 at 9:09PMVideogamebunny001 keeps on deleting the entry for Fan-Preferred Couple on Persona 5's YMMV page without giving an explanation apart from the first time they did it with a vague "Inaccurate information" and "Incorrect" without any detail.
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And you're readding it with vague "no, this is accurate." If someone contests the example, take it to discussion and hash it out. Courtesy link: Persona 5. -
Suspended. Please take the time to bring that entry to discussion. -
He's redeleted it again, but please do not readd it without chiming in on the discussion page. -
The page is locked now. Once it's cleared on the discussion page, go to the Locked Pages thread and let us moderators know.
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7 Sep 29th, 2016 at 8:08AMAnimeHello, There has been some disagreement on the the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/DragonBallZMovieVillains.
Namely, several tropers kept putting Beerus killing Zamasu under Kick the Son of a Bitch. I erased it by three different tropers because the trope is about an evil or an extremely morally questionable character doing something that can be seen as a Kick the Dog, but since they are doing it to an Asshole Victim, it isn't seen as necessary a bad thing.
Zamasu is a a Jerkass God who was going to going to kill his master, therefore Beerus executed him. Beerus, although he can be a jerk at times, mellow out by this point in the series and isn't seen as an evil character or even morally grey character. What he did also falls under his job as God of Destruction.
What do you guys think?
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I honestly think this trope needs a new name to avoid misuse. -
Kick the Son of a Bitch is about a character kicking the dog, but the dog also happens to be evil. The kicker doesn't have to be evil, but the act has to be one that's shown as dog-kicking. I haven't seen the scene in question so I can't say for sure. But Beerus not being evil doesn't necessarily disqualify it. -
I thought the act has to be at least a character that can go over the edge, like Batman killing the Joker. The viewer my worry about Batman's mental health and how people may respond to the act, but everyone is happy the Joker died. Another example is Gohan torturing Cell. We're worried for Gohan's sanity, but also feel that Cell does deserve to suffer. -
Where do you get that aspect of it? From the sound of it, I do think that this is more Pay Evil unto Evil, though. -
from the page:- Kick the Son of a Bitch: While escaping from a bank heist gone sour, a couple of robbers gun down anyone who gets in their way. Among the victims, unbeknownst to them, is a certain pimp who was notoriously cruel to his prostitutes and recently managed to beat the rap for murdering one of them. He will not be missed.
- Pay Evil unto Evil: While escaping from a bank heist gone sour, a couple of robbers gun down anyone who gets in their way. One of the robbers spots a certain pimp he knows who is notoriously cruel to his prostitutes and recently managed to beat the rap for murdering one of them; figuring this is as good a time as any for revenge, he takes aim and shoots him.
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Aye, ^this. KTSOB is about the action and whether the perpetrator is deliberately punishing the victim. If the perpetrator knows the victim deserves it and is deliberately punishing them, it's PEUE. If the perpetrator doesn't know the victim deserves it, or their motivations are totally unrelated to whether the victim deserves it, it's KTSOB. I'm marginally familiar with Beerus as a character, but I don't know enough about the scene itself to speak from experience. From what you've described, it sounds like a mild example of PEUE, not KTSOB. -
Yes, this trope is about Kick the Dog when the target happens to be a scumbag itself.
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1 Sep 29th, 2016 at 1:01PMCumbersome Tercel has a Zero-Context Example problem. He's written a few that I've seen and on Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog he uncommented out ZC Es. I've sent him several messages. I actually first noticed him when he was doubling up on roles on Four-Temperament Ensemble/Music. He responded to that message so it's not like he's not reading any of these.
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20 Dec 20th, 2014 at 7:07AMVideogameVideoGame.Sonic The Hedgehog 2 Special Edition is about a hoax videogame. The trope list mostly presents it In-Universe, but it's basically a Let's Play (of something that doesn't exist, so maybe it should be a Just for Fun page?). What namespace should it be in?
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We have a Let's Play namespace. It should probably either go there or Web Original. -
If it doesn't exist, it goes in Darth Wiki. We do allow Just for Fun for this stuff on occassion, but I think that needs mod approval @Kyle: no, things that are hoaxes do not go in media namespaces, unless you're describing it as a hoax, they go in Just for Fun or Darth Wiki. -
From watching the first video, I'd put it in Web Original. It's not really a Let's Play, since the game doesn't exist, but the videos themselves do exist. -
I do not think that whether a game actually exists or not influences the namespace status of an actually existing Let's Play. -
What Septimus said. Plus, Web Original is kinda a "last resort" namespace when no other fit, mostly used for memes. If it has the format of a Let's Play, then it goes in LetsPlay/. Namespaces are flexible. -
I agree - if there is a Let's Play or something similar about an imaginary game, then the Let's Play is the work we're troping, and it does exist. This makes me think about a book by Stanisław Lem that consist entirely of made-up reviews of works that don't exist. This doesn't make the book unworthy of a work page (I don't know if such a work page exists or not), it just changes the genre of the book from criticism to fiction. -
I originally was thinking Let's Play, but the more I've thought about it, the less that makes sense. It's vaguely in the form of an LP, but it's really manipulated images a la WebVideo.Ben Drowned. -
Buuuuuuump. -
Let's Play seems like the best place. Even if faked, it has all the trappings of one. -
Then should the tropes be modified to be about the Let's Play, rather than the game? Because the trope listing treat it like a real game, with entries like Artificial Brilliance and other video game tropes. -
I suppose you could make an analogy to characters in a fictional movie: we trope the characters, their habits and actions, even though they are not real people. Similarly, you could argue that the fictional game is a kind of character in a piece of fiction, hence it can be troped. On the other hand, almost a year ago I wrote (see above) that it's the Let's Play that is the work to be troped. However, then I was writing about whether the work page should be about the fictional game or about the Let's Play. So I suppose what I'm saying is that the work page should be for the fictional Let's Play, but that it can be OK to trope the fictional game on that page. -
We should not be troping the fictional game as if it is real. We can list the tropes that the Let's Play uses to describe it, as we would any Show Within a Show. -
^I didn't mean that it should be troped as if it were a real game. But you expressed it better than I did. A Show Within a Show is a good comparison. -
The trope description for Show Within a Show already makes it for any fictional medium, not just tvshows. :-) We could do a page for the fictional work (we do it in other places) but that should be made after the work it exists in. :-) -
The Let's Play is trope-able. The fictional game, having not been "released" outside the LP, is not. -
^^ Although Fictional Video Game or Game Within a Game are specific subtropes of Show Within a Show for video games. -
Good call. I wasn't aware of them. -
Also, Sugar Wiki.Watchmen - should probably be a Just for Fun. -
Positively ancient bump. Upon giving it more thought and learning more ins and outs about TV Tropes, I'm pretty positive this should go to Just for Fun/ as-written because it's troping the fictional game like it's real. We could make a separate page in the Let's Play/ namespace, but we'd have to rewrite every single example to make it fit. -
Separate discussion, please. Also, I believe the normal precedent is that we have nothing against jokes in the article spaces so as long as they are funny and stay very rare.
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5 Sep 28th, 2016 at 2:02PMWhy was the main page for Allen Gregory squeezed out into a shell of its former self? I can understand getting rid of critical reception in the main description but nearly all the descriptive explanations of tropes are now in a Beige Prose.
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Ask the user who made the changes. And the article is now full of zero-context examples. -
Since the 'edit reasons' are random bits of gibberish, I'd say this is the work of a wiki vandal. Most of JamesLulz22's other edits are also questionable.
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It definitely looks like either pure vandalism, or some sort of agenda-based editing. The moderators should look into this. -
Restored page. Will suspend the user in question. -
Now is anyone able to comb through the rest of his edits and fix the rest of the damage he did?
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2 Sep 29th, 2016 at 9:09AMYou know? A stylistic choice seen from various works like: Hotline Miami, Moonbeam City, and perhaps Drive. Something that features: Cool pink sunsets, a synthwave soundtrack, 80's neon, a lot of other 80's and early 90's imagery? It's essentially what you see on Outrun but I'm not sure if we have it called something else on this site. Or, does Cassette Futurism count as such?
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Please ask in Trope Finder. -
Opps...wrong board
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6 Sep 29th, 2016 at 5:05AMJPMFES has started an edit war over at Persona 5 and seems to be threatening to continue it in their latest edit reason:
"I already listed my reason about why these two topics (dating a minor and being unable to date men) feed of each other not to mention the callous way the developers of this game treat LGBT people and I'm not doing it again. One of the memes for this game uses homophobic terminology but you don't see me deleting it because I don't like it. Delete this again and I'll bring it right back up, simple as that."
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Christ almighty, between this, this, and this, it's looking like YMMV.Persona 5 is going to need a lock.
Good job, shippers.
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It might be possible that they're ban evading, too. I could be wrong. -
He did it again, by the way. Not going to delete it until a mod chimes in. EDIT: ... and someone else re-deleted it. The natter is decidedly unnecessary and borders on Insane Troll Logic, and really should stay gone. -
I've tried to bring it to the discussion page, but it might be too late. -
I think the mods will give you the benefit of the doubt since you brought it to discussion (though I would edit your post to be more specific), but in the future, bringing a contested example to the discussion should be the first thing to do. Re-adding or re-deleting an item is an edit war unless it's been hashed out. -
JPMFES suspended. Edit: As it's three reports on edit warring, page is now locked.
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5 Sep 28th, 2016 at 3:03AMWebcomicHi, I searched and didn't find an answer to this, though I'm sure it must be written somewhere because your how-to-pages are great. I was wondering how examples are ordered in a given trope and a given folder. And, as I couldn't find a logic in the ones I looked at, where do I put a new example? Do I put it before the existing ones, because it's new and people will notice it better? Or after the existing ones because that's how it's done? Or somewhere else because there's a kind of order I didn't understand? ... Well, it's fun to be here anyway, glad to have found this site.
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The preferred order is to sort them alphabetically. If they aren't in alphabetical order, new examples should be added last in the list. I'm sure this is written down somewhere. -
See the fifth bullet point on How to Write an Example for more details. -
Thanks for your answers. I did read How to Write an Example before adding examples, but I found many tropes with no visible order in their Webcomics examples folder. Should I spend time (when I can) ordering those? Well, as this is a wiki, I suppose the answer is yes, anyway ;) -
I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) the policy is that if you want to alphabetize the entries in a folder, you can just go ahead and do it, because that's how things are supposed to be organized. If you think some other order would be better for some reason, you'd better take it up to discussion. -
Right, alphabetical, or oldest-to-newest if no one's come along to alphabetize them yet. If you want to put some effort into organizing, first, thank you kindly, and second, also take a look at How to Alphabetize Things.
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8 Sep 27th, 2016 at 8:08PMVideogameEDIT: I've been having recurring issues with maneatingbackpack deleting a YMMV entry on the Persona 5 page. I've added an entry under Internet Backdraft describing why some fans have have been upset about the lack of a gay option, and after its initial deletion, I added more detail, and sourced a point of contention around the age of consent in Japan. It was deleted again, with the reason being that they didn't even bother reading the link I used.
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Report it here. -
Suspended. If you have a link that backs up your point, feel free to restore your edit. -
Um. The mod said you can restore your edit if you have a link that backs up your point. There's a link, but it doesn't back up your point about the controversy existing, just a tidbit on age of consent laws which is Values Dissonance at best. In other words you're saying that the thing that might be a point of controversy exists, but not providing evidence that there's backdraft about it. Internet Backdraft gets wildly misused as a dumping ground for "well, I'm upset about it." That's not backdraft, that's People Sit In Chairs. Not to mention it's natter and misindented to boot. -
In that case, it's best left off. -
I sent a private message to them asking them to check back here. -
... and actually, looking over the example the natter was attached to, it's an awful example. Aside from factual inaccuracies (Jun and Tatsuya isn't canon as an Official Couple, he's just a canon Gay Option. Subtle but still inaccurate). But my problem is that the example is so knee-jerk that it's not even claiming that there is no Gay Option, it's claiming that one of them isn't a gay option and doesn't know about the other. That's... just sloppy. The game came out recently so it's currently unconfirmed if there's a gay option one way or the other. Since he's been told to come here I'm not going to bother deleting it and hope that he fixes it himself. -
That's fine by me. I tried to be impartial, but if the wiki feels like it would be better be left off, I have no problems. just to clarify two small things, when I said "official" I didn't mean as an Official Couple, I meant that they were official in the sense that it was actually included in canon as a Gay Option, so if there was confusion over that, then I'm sorry, I misworded it. Second of all, at least one guide ( http://toragame.com/persona5/) confirmed that neither Yusuke's nor Yuki's Co-Ops can be leveled into romances at Rank 8 as with the female options, and I've updated my entry to include it.
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Thanks. That's exactly why I didn't want to delete the entry; I was pretty sure it was right, but it just was worded like it wasn't.
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1 Sep 28th, 2016 at 11:11PMAnimeHello. With regards to the pages on Maken-ki!, I discovered that there are links to the manga on ReadPanda and MangaTown, both of which are possible scanlation sites. I'm removing them from the articles as I speak, but can the links be cleaned up from other articles as well as this one? Thanks.
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6 Sep 28th, 2016 at 11:11AM
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Considering they're giant vespids the size of gorillas or larger, I doubt it's ever really specified anywhere. When it comes to fictional, monstrous bees/wasps/hornets/whatever, it's a distinction without a difference. For example, our trope page for such creatures is called Bee Afraid (and has a lot of redirects for other types like Wicked Wasp and Horrid Hornet), while the trope for a video game location that has a lot of them is called Hornet Hole. -
Consulting a wiki to see what they look like (never played a DK game), I'd put Zingers under "hornet" and Buzzes under "bee", but this one may need a second opinion. -
They take characteristics from both. Visually, the zingers are more similar to wasps or hornets, but they live in large hives and produce honey like bees. So all things considered, they aren't either one; they're a fictional, honey-producing, eusocial, stinging insect. The buzzes are a moot point really since they're just machines made in imitation of bees/wasps/zingers. -
If it's for Informed Species, they don't count unless they're canonically called bees or wasps. Not familiar with Donkey Kong, but I find the Artistic License – Biology entry on the Donkey Kong Country page, claiming that wasps don't make honey, to be silly, at least in the way it's written. They're not wasps, they're "zingers". I mean, I'm no expert, but I don't think wasps have giant spikes on their abdomens either. -
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...or you could just go get Word of God, that works, too. (I loled.)
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1 Sep 28th, 2016 at 4:04PMLiteratureWhy was it called that, anyway? The other series' under the same pen name as this one, Literature.Warrior Cats and Literature.Seeker Bears, both specify that each series is about a certain kind of animal, so shouldn't the page be called Literature.Survivor Dogs to keep up with the naming?
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All the books have "Survivors" right at the top. I'd say that makes it the right title. If anything, the other two series need to be moved to "Warriors" and "Seekers" to accurately reflect the titles of the books (Warrior Cats has an image showing as much), though those are evidently valid alternate titles.
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1 Sep 28th, 2016 at 4:04PM
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Hope Springs Eternal is not necessarily an ending trope. It can take place after a Darkest Hour in the middle of the story. Ray of Hope Ending is a definite Downer Ending that has some upbeat element to show all is not darkness and despair — that there may be a future generation that has a better fate, for instance. They can intersect, but not always. (Ray of Hope Ending may have everyone dead but going to heaven, for instance.) EDIT: Oh, for future reference, the trope talk forum would really be the proper place for this query.
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4 Sep 28th, 2016 at 4:04PM
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Sure. Make sure the page is made in the right namespace (in this case, probably Web Video) and has a decent description and at least 3 tropes. Maybe afterwards, put it on Needs Wiki Magic Love to get other tropers to help. -
I'm the type of troper that lurks the site. I don't know how to format, which is why I asked. Sorry I was unclear on that part. -
WebVideo.Crious Gamers WebVideo.Chilled Chaos (I'm not sure which one is the page you want to make, so take the right one and select "Edit Page" on that page.) Administrivia is a good place to go to learn lots of stuff, including how to format. There's a bunch of other things that may come in handy too, like guides on how to write examples. If you don't want to start a public page just yet, you can make a sandbox to play in and test your skills, and perhaps draft a page. Here's a link to one such sandbox: Sandbox.Modern Bored Reader -
Thanks. I'll check it out. :)
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2 Sep 28th, 2016 at 12:12PM
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5 Sep 27th, 2016 at 9:09PMFilmCould we maybe make this a redirect to the Just for Fun page? I've noticed the Main namespace pages for a number of other works simply redirect to the page under the proper namespace. I don't see what the difference is here.
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Main is for articles. You're not supposed to use main redirects except for a few cases, this not being one of them. Those main redirects to non-tropes are probably just from sheer volume of inbound links. -
They're kept because other pages on the wiki still link to them, a leftover from when all work pages were in the mainspace. We're not supposed to create any new ones. -
And once the links on the wiki are corrected, most of them are cutlisted. But some are kept because they have a lot of links from elsewhere on the Internet, which we can't change, and we don't want those links to break. -
Also, main redirects aren't necessary anymore (except to keep old links valid), since if you try to look for something that doesn't have a main page, but exists in other namespaces, the wiki engine's search functionality will take you there anyway. -
^^I thought inbounds didn't matter because it shows a list of namespaces where the page does exist. I've definitely seen them cutlisted with more than 30 wicks.
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3 Sep 28th, 2016 at 5:05AMPrint ComicHey, I'm looking for a page for the 2014 and new run 2016 comics of Deathstroke and all I find is this.
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Do any of the New 52 runs have separate pages? -
Wait. There's only 1 page? That's very confusing for those who read only one series out of an entire continuity. -
It's generally not really worth making pages for different main runs of the same character, especially with the same (or a similar enough) title. Most people would be interested in the page containing info about all of the character's runs as a whole, without needing to go through, say, Aquaman 1989 run, Aquaman 1995 run. Aquaman 1999 run, Aquaman 2005 run and so on. Pages are usually made for significant storylines instead, like Knightfall or The Death of Superman, and for books that are different enough from other main runs with the same title, like with the different Batgirl comics. If you have enough unique tropes to justify it having its own page, you can make one with no worries, but I personally don't think Deathstroke needs separate pages for all of his runs. It might be better to do what they did with the Blue Beetle page, and just separate the tropes with an "In General" folder, followed by folders with different runs.
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13 Sep 9th, 2016 at 11:11AMPreviously, TheNohrianDarkKnight changed an entry about Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE on No Dub for You to read: "Bill Trinen of NoA claimed this was done in order to match the Japanese feel of the game, though some feel that the localizers just didn't care due to the game not being a hot seller in Japan itself." I changed it to get rid of the attempt to shoehorn in They Just Didn't Care since they did not provide the necessary citations. They then changed it to read: "According to Bill Trinen of NoA, this game does not have a dub in order to match the Japanese feel of the game, though some think this was actually due to the game's not-so successful run in Japan." Is the example valid? I get the feeling that it was worded that way to try to hint that Bill Trinen is lying and that Weasel Words are involved, and I wanted to be sure if speculating on such things on that page is allowed.
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Yeah, just axe that. He previously raised a stink about how They Just Didn't Care didn't apply to that same example. Note to mods: Their edits were made before their suspension and its subsequent release for basically doing the same elsewhere, so unless they try to de-revert, another suspension shouldn't be necessary. -
Could someone else axe the example? Since I was the one that changed their entry originally, I don't want to be involved in an edit war. EDIT: Looks like it's been changed. Thanks! -
The Rogue Penguin beat me to it. For the record, they're probably at least partially right, but still it's not something that should go on the page. -
Looks like TheNohrianDarkKnight edited it to be this: "According to Bill Trinen of NoA, this game does not have a dub in order to match the Japanese feel of the game. Some however, believe that it was actually due to the game's not so successful run in Japan." -
Now he's just edit warring. -
Oh yeah, this. The gap between the JP and NA releases was only 7 months, so I think it's possible that the decision to not dub the game was made before the JP version was even released and thus not influenced by the sales in Japan. (I'm making an assumption that the localization process started before the game hit the streets in Japan.) However, I'll play Devil's Advocate a bit and say that the game's pretty niche, so Treehouse not dubbing it to keep costs down in anticipation of the game bombing in America isn't totally out of the question. Regardless, that part is still speculation at best and needs to go. -
Suspended. -
Would it be okay if I revert their edit, or should I leave it alone? -
Revert away. You're just fixing vandalism. -
Alright, reverted. Thanks for the input. -
I like how my original response specifically said that as long as he doesn't try to de-revert he shouldn't be suspended. ... and then he went and de-reverted. Huzzah. -
I'm sorry. I just felt from different peoples comments that they claimed that it was mostly the game's not so successful run that was the cause for no dub. -
See, there's a few problems with that. One, we don't deal in speculation on non-Wild Mass Guessing pages. That's why it got pulled in the first place. But far more problematic is the fact that, after you were told to knock it off, you went and edit-warred to readd it. That's bad. I hope you take my advice to heart, no one wants to see you banned.
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0 Sep 28th, 2016 at 11:11AMWestern Animation
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1 Sep 28th, 2016 at 8:08AMIs this a Sexy Discretion Shot or is it just me? From The Tough Guide to Fantasyland: VIRGINS: 6. As TALENTED GIRLS. These are very likely, towards the end of the second third of the Tour, to come across a male Tourist in his BATH and turn implausibly to jelly (a surge of some deep, hitherto unknown emotion swept through her (OMT)). Thereafter they have a sprightly step, a jaunty gleam in the eyes, a yet more tiptilted nose, and a private life over which the Management generally draws a discreet veil.
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Possibly, but Trope Talk seems like a better place for this question.
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1 Sep 28th, 2016 at 6:06AMIs there a general trope for a character who holds a grudge, but doesn't fit into No Sympathy for Grudgeholders?
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Ask this in Trope Finder.
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