• 0 Jan 18th, 2017 at 7:07AM
    Literature
    Hi, all. I want to create a works page for my web serial novel, Gamer Girl, and have been researching how on Administrivia / How to Create a Works Page (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Administrivia/HowToCreateAWorksPage?from=Main.HowToCreateAWorksPage). However, I've hit a snag. There's a 'Gamer Girl' novel by Mari Mancusi already on the site, so the http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/GamerGirl URL is already taken. It tells you how to differentiate the UR Ls of identically named works where Recycled Titles (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledTitle) are the issue on Administrivia / How to Create a Works Page, but not how to do this where unrelated Similarly Named Works (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SimilarlyNamedWorks) are concerned. In short, could someone tell me a way to differentiate my Gamer Girl web serial novel URL from the Gamer Girl novel URL? Reply
  • 2 Jan 17th, 2017 at 11:11AM
    Videogame
    Lastest Reply: 18th Jan, 2017 05:50:59 AM
    New Super Luigi U

    On that page, there's a commented out note from Whitecroc stating:

    Do not list tropes from New Super Mario Bros. U. Those go on that game's page.

    (side note: This is a modification of a note originally left by Blue Guy stating "Please note that this game uses several tropes from New Super Mario Bros. U, so please don't list those here - this list is for tropes exclusive to this game")

    The point though: New Super Luigi U is kind of like a weird DLC to New Super Mario Bros. U. You basically take that game, replace Mario with Luigi, remove all appearances of Mario, and make the levels harder and shorter. But does that mean that the page should only trope things exclusive to New Super Luigi U and not contain any examples of tropes from the parent game that are also present in this game? Reply

      We don't generally work that way. If a derivative work or game mod has its own article, then it is distinctive enough to get its own trope list. Obviously, the tropes should be those present specifically in that content; for example, if you create an article for a Super Mario World bonus level, you wouldn't list tropes not found in that level.

      Note that in some cases, the original work is the one with such a note. This usually happens in the case of Adaptation Displacement.
  • 12 Dec 25th, 2016 at 5:05AM
    Film
    Lastest Reply: 18th Jan, 2017 02:50:56 AM
    Has anyone here seen or heard of Next of Kin (1982)? Because I could really use a bit of help in writing its tropes page. This is mainly down to the fact that I have never actually had the chance to watch the film (though I have heard it's really good) but it also has to do with the fact that I have been getting virtually no real-life social interaction these days, and so I often find myself at a loss for words whenever I try to write something down. Reply

      Just an FYI - you shouldn't be listing tropes without any context. See Zero-Context Example. Also, opinions like "topped off with a terrible tagline" shouldn't go on non-YMMV pages.


      Like I said, part of the problem is that I know that the film contains examples of some of the tropes listed, but I often can't figure out how to put it all into words for the reasons given above, hence some of the trope descriptions being left blank or just being inadequate or awkwardly worded.

      Just add a "%%" before the context-less trope name. It's not a style suggestion. It's a rule that, if ignored, can get you suspended.

      Of course. I have adjusted the page accordingly.

      By the way, if any of you are curious, the subject of the film does get briefly touched upon in Not Quite Hollywood, an excellent documentary from 2008 about the Australian New Wave (with particular emphasis on the "Ozploitation" trend from the era).

      Why are you making a trope page for a film you haven't seen?

      I was thinking the same thing, but there's no rule against it, and it's already really common thanks to people who create pages for works after seeing them on the Nostalgia Critic and similar shows, and people who create pages based on previews, demos and trailers.

      it is still bad form. I at least listened to the albums before writing Music.Gloryhammer.

      ^^While those may be common... the pages that result tend to not be very good and often need cleanup. So it's a valid question.

      Bad form or not, there's absolutely no way you can enforce a rule saying that people should actually watch the work they create a page for. You only need three tropes to start a page, and in most cases you can get three tropes out of a Wikipedia summary. So I don't know how much good a discussion would do.

      Also, the quality of the page depends on the troper. People more used to editing the site will be able to make decent start-up pages for works they haven't seen, while newbies who aren't yet familiar with the rules and customs will have problems with ZC Es, shoehorning and such regardless of how familiar they are with a work.

      In my opinion, you should only add very simple and obvious tropes like Cool Car or Ray Gun if you haven't actually seen a film or show, where there's little chance of misinterpretation, but again, there's no way to enforce it.

      I recently did a bit of clean-up on a page about a film (reviewed by The Nostalgia Critic), where some of the information was misleading or just flat-out wrong, so I definitely understand the concerns.

      You can recommend that such pages be created in the Sandbox namespace, since all pages there are assumed to be under construction.

      Oh yeah, by the way, I took the time to actually watch the film yesterday, and it certainly lives up to its reputation. In case any of you are interested, it's been uploaded to YouTube, though I'm unsure if it will stay there for long. Indeed, it might prove useful for those who might wish to contribute to its tropes page.

      Scifimaster 92:

      To answer your original question:

      How to Create a Works Page and How to Collect Tropes are good sources of advice for you.

      Also, you can go to the Trope Launch Pad and submit a request for the tropers there to help you with writing the page.

      Be sure to mention that you already know that Works Pages Are a Free Launch or someone will helpfully remind you about that. :)
  • 3 Jan 17th, 2017 at 10:10PM
    Lastest Reply: 18th Jan, 2017 01:55:50 AM
    Is there a clear guideline anywhere about what tropes belong on character pages instead of in the main trope list?

    I keep seeing tropes on character pages that I don't think belong (Adaptation Dye-Job is one I saw most recently), but I don't want to move them if they're just going to be moved back. Reply

      There is none, because not every work has characters sheet.

      For a work with chaarcter sheet, if a trope only apply to single character on the sheet, then it doesn't belong to work page. That's pretty much the only rule I can think of.

      It's always been a bit random, really.

      The idea is that tropes that apply to a specific character go on the character page, in the entry for that character, while tropes that apply to the work as a whole go on the main work page.

      ...except for the following (note: I'm not saying that there isn't a consensus for how these cases should be handled, just that they tend to cause confusion because it's not obvious how they should be handled):

      • A trope can apply to several characters. Does it go on the character page, once for each character, or on the main page to prevent duplication?
      • And what if the trope applies to a character, but is very important for the work as a whole (for example, Big Bad certainly applies to an individual character, but if the whole plot centers around fighting the big bad, surely it's important to the work as a whole.

      So, yes, it's a bit of a mess. And it leads to confusion when somebody adds a trope to the main page that somebody else has already added to a character page.

      But putting tropes on character pages serves an important purpose for many works: it keeps down the sheer amount of examples on the main page.
  • 3 Jan 17th, 2017 at 9:09AM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 09:55:33 PM
    So I've been lurking around, looking at random pages. I've noticed a few strange things such as grammatical errors, wrong links, and unlinked tropes. On Funny / DC Rebirth, I noticed a few grammatical errors and a couple of unlinked pages. Has anyone found any pages like these? Reply

      I've come across those pages every now and then.

      Feel free to fix them.

      The premise of a wiki is that you are allowed to fix things. There's no need to ask permission, unless your changes would significantly alter the content or meaning of an article, in which case it's best to ask first to establish consensus.

      Administrivia.Tips For Editing Start here, read some other Administrivia pages, follow the rules and guidelines, and above all, never be afraid to ask questions. :)
  • 1 Jan 17th, 2017 at 7:07PM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 09:48:28 PM
    I've seen a couple of Creator pages where YMMV things have been moved to a separate YMMV page for that creator Is this right? I thought YMMV pages were just for works. Reply

      Creator YMMV pages can be used for YMMV tropes from that creator's works if the work itself doesn't have a page here. If a work page is created, then the tropes are transplanted.

      If the creator is being troped, nuke the examples.
  • 2 Jan 17th, 2017 at 11:11AM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 08:13:31 PM
    YMMV.Miscellaneous Disney Shorts only has two entries:

    What do we do with these entries, and should we cut the page? Reply
  • 3 Jan 17th, 2017 at 7:07PM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 08:12:42 PM
    Are people allowed to remove things from a work's YMMV page because they apparently disagree with those opinions if they justify it by labelling those opinions as Flame Bait? I thought that was what YMMV pages was for. Reply

      "Here is a list of things we call Flame Bait, the forbidden tropes, the ones that open the door to horrible things. Please don't list them anywhere, not even in YMMV tabs." - the Flame Bait page

      If the opinions were attached to one of the tropes on that page, then they should be removed immediately.

      Rule of Cautious Editing Judgment is also a thing to consider.

      If someone removes an item by labeling it as Flame Bait, and said item is not considered Flame Bait, restore it. Preferably with moderator approval if you added it previously.
  • 12 Jan 17th, 2017 at 1:01PM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 05:11:15 PM
    Nice Guy keeps being adding to Peri in Fire Emblem Fates Nohr despite the Peri being someone who enjoys killing her own servants.

    Here's a Wiki Link on the character.

    http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Peri

    Does that seem like someone who would fit the Nice Guy Trope? Reply

      Also this entry was deleted without explanation.

      • Hypocrite: Peri knows her actions are wrong, and says death isn't fun when its happening to me.

      Peri does indeed say "Killing isn't fun when it's happening to me!" in a support with Jakob.

      Innocent was also deleted from
      • "passion for violence and killing against innocent people"
      but the game does show her victims are her loyal servants, and she kills them over stuff like spilling tea. I would argue that makes them innocent as they are civilians, and her own allies.

      Any discussion on whether or not these fit?


      Sounds like Faux Affably Evil, if she's killing her own people For the Evulz. Definitely not Nice Guy.

      Mind if I add it back.

      She has a Freudian Excuse, and can be nice in some supports, but in general, she's a Token Evil Teammate.

      Okay, so I'm looking at the page. It says she has a violent alter-ego. If it's not her, but her alter-ego who is doing the killing or if she's in a fugue state then it could theoretically apply, especially if the only targets of her Unstoppable Rage are those that remind her of her mother's killer. I would need to know more about the source material.

      For comparison, Gohan from Dragon Ball Z lapses into an Unstoppable Rage from time to time and on occasion has been a huge threat to his friends and family, but he's still definitely a Nice Guy in general.

      Either way, take it to the discussion page.

      Even in her calm state, Peri claims there's no problem with her killing others.

      The servant who killed her mother was also executed, so she can't say she thought they were her mom's killers.

      For comparison Gohan gets mad when he's in an Unstoppable Rage caused by seeing baddies do terrible things, and kills villains. He doesn't kill his family friends regularly, and then say it was ok when he's out of the Unstoppable Rage.

      I think Affably Evil is a better fit, she's polite, but kills For the Evulz, and does so without remorse.

      Laconic for Nice Guy says

      • An overall pleasant character with no glaringly dark traits.

      Killing your frightened servants over things like spilling tea would count as a dark trait.

      Without question. Nice Guy cannot apply to someone who enjoys violence. If the character has an evil alter ego, it depends on whether they are treated as distinct characters, Jekyll/Hyde style, or if it's still the same "person" with a Berserk Button or Drunk on the Dark Side situation.

      Same person, and continually makes it clear she enjoys killing.

      There's no alter ego, Peri's just cuckoo for coco puffs and has a temper. She has the capacity to be nice but is definitely not a Nice Guy.

      On the other hand she seems to be somewhat aware about how messed up she is based on a couple conversations and has a Freudian Excuse (she found her mother dead after a servant killed her when she was super young, and it kind of broke her psyche) so I hesitate to use any of the Evil Tropes to describe her.

      That sounds like Cute and Psycho, if it's not on the page already.

      Yeah, I'm with Karxrida on not putting any "evil" tropes on her, especially since she's more "psychotic" than "evil."

      I played FE Fates and Peri isn't a nice girl.

      How about Hidden Depths to replace the Nice Guy entry?

      Like Peri can be genuinely personable when not being Ax-Crazy.
  • 1 Jan 17th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 04:18:34 PM
    Would killing someone by bashing their head against a table count as Death by Falling Over or some other trope? Reply

      You mean by intentionally hitting someone into something? No, that's just plain murder. I don't think there's anything special about that particular method that would merit a trope.
  • 1 Jan 17th, 2017 at 1:01PM
    Anime
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 02:27:26 PM
    I have doubt on Bleached Underpants example in Anime/ Yatterman. Maybe Bowdlerise fit better the example? Reply
  • 1 Jan 17th, 2017 at 11:11AM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 11:28:27 AM
    There's an edit war going on over at YMMV.Pixar. One side wants to cut the page as creators aren't supposed to have YMMV pages, the other side wants to keep it as the tropes apply to their general work and not to the creators themselves. Reply

      Already discussed under the God Emperor ATT report farther down, so closing.
  • 4 Jan 17th, 2017 at 8:08AM
    Web Original
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 10:11:28 AM
    You know that DMOS entry I posted a week or so ago showing a post somebody made on the Web Original page, that I showed and eventually deleted for being off-site website drama importation?

    Well, apparently Asue was banned and I assumed he was the OP of the post under a different account, I said this in my edit reason.....and the OP of it, Tommy Tiger, is still around and maybe NOT the same person....today I messed up. I feel too embarrassed to come back onto the page because even though I frequently look around on it, because I fear he or she might of reacted to it massively. What do I do? Reply

      If you think he's ban-evading, try luring him out. Ban evaders are perma-banned on the spot once they're caught.

      I should also point out that any threat he makes to you is an empty one; he can't carry it out easily, and the rules here can help protect you from anything he tries to pull. If he harasses you on another site, block him and/or report him.

      I'm sorry, but I don't understand the issue. There's no evidence that Tommy Tiger and Asue are the same person.

      If you made a mistake about the identity, you could apologize via PM.

      Yeah, this is a confusing issue, I might just apologize.
  • 1 Jan 17th, 2017 at 8:08AM
    Literature
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 08:53:37 AM
    Are unpublished works allowed on the regular wiki's indexes? Because DarthWiki.The Movement is currently on the index for FanFic.Literature. Reply

      No, it is not allowed there. Please remove it.
  • 2 Jan 17th, 2017 at 3:03AM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 07:56:38 AM
    Does the Combining Mecha trope cover only robots, or any instances of individuals assembling into a giant? Reply

      I'd say it covers only robots or other machines (the page says "vehicles"). Combining living individuals has different connotations, some of them on the icky side. The page actually refers to soem tropes about combining living things.

      I think it would still count if they're mechanical lifeform (physical machine deities, for example).

      Otherwise, Fusion Dance should be better choice.
  • 7 Jan 16th, 2017 at 7:07AM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 07:51:15 AM
    Someone on YMMV.Moana just added a Complete Monster entry for Tamatoa. Does he qualify? Reply

      Nope


      All Complete Monster examples must be discussed in a special forum thread before they are added. If it wasn't discussed there, it should be removed.

      The specific troper responsible for adding it was Tropers.Vampireandthen. Were they messaged about this?

      I just saw in the history for the page that the example has been removed and is being discussed on the Complete Monster thread (in the Long-term projects forum). There seems to be consensus that it doesn't fit the trope.

      Uh, no. He does not do anywhere near enough to be considered a CM.

      Thread is http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok

      well, since the reaction on the thread was "HELL NO he's a complete monster, burn it" and High Crate already removed it, I think this can be closed unless he edit-wars to put it back
  • 12 Jan 3rd, 2017 at 1:01PM
    Videogame
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 04:45:11 AM
    I've recently managed to get some footage of the game through screenshots taken from an iPad on HD videos, but when I try to upload it here, the image is far too small and blurry to be able to see anything, like this one:

    http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/img_2766.PNG

    Is there a way to fix this? Reply

      What are you planning to use it for? That said, see How to Pick a Good Image. 350 is the max size.

      Use an image editor (not MS Paint!!) to resize it before uploading.

      I'm planning to use these for a visual comparison for the "Animals not to Scale" trope on the Warpath page. Both T. rex and Albertosaurus have a real life size depiction image linked on that page, so I'm trying to upload images like this one to show their size depiction in-game, if that makes any sense.

      We don't permit that. It's okay to link out to it, but not to store the images here.

      Why not?

      Because we aren't imgur.com. Images should be loaded to illustrate articles, not for general use. They have to comply with our sizing requirements.

      Not general use, sure, but it seems like he's making a comparison for within the page itself. I would think we would prefer to host the images themselves to prevent the links from dying.

      We're not going to modify the image uploader to allow larger pics just for this one use.

      Less "this one use" and more "it seems like a prudent policy to ensure we don't accidentally link a dead pic."

      I didn't realize our uploader had such limits so that does make sense, though.

      Also, Sleeping Beauty, I checked out that page... remember, Weblinks Are Not Examples. You need to add more than just link two pictures and call it an example.

      Ok, does that mean that I need to describe the linked examples more?

      In general you want to give any entry enough detail that nobody has to go somewhere else or be excessively familiar with the work or topic to see what you're talking about.

      Does it look good enough right now or are there still some things that need to be fixed?
  • 2 Jan 16th, 2017 at 9:09PM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 04:26:45 AM
    This was just launched. Do I have to bring it to TRS to get a better name for this? Reply

      You go here to report prematurely launched tropes. I brought it to the attention of the thread since it also has too few examples.

      Posted my point on that thread.
  • 1 Jan 17th, 2017 at 2:02AM
    Literature
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 02:38:14 AM
    So where do I go to learn how to properly formatted page, because I noticed that a certain franchise, and I'm a decent fan of doesn't have a page on this wiki at all... and I would like to change that, but I don't want to break any rules or get myself in trouble simply due to being a complete newbie. Reply
  • 2 Jan 16th, 2017 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 01:28:41 AM
    I figure they aren't allowed in character pages, but I'll ask just in case. Reply

      No, they are not.

      They're not supposed to be. If you post a Trivia or YMMV trope on a page other than where that trope belongs, there will be a pair of justice scales next to the trope and example. There will also be a note in the editing screen telling you to move the example.

      Exceptions, of course, are with tropes such as Nightmare Fuel and What an Idiot; those can normally be put on YMMV, but they do get their own tabs sometimes.
  • 11 Jan 16th, 2017 at 1:01PM
    Western Animation
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 01:27:17 AM
    GodEmperor essentially blanked a bunch of YMMV pages. Reply

      Christ on a bike...he's done that on almost every Creator-attached YMMV page.

      He's saying Creator pages cannot have YMMV. That's the note he has.

      I will say, the discussion and mod comment ruling out Creator page YMM Vs is 5 years old. So your call.

      My understanding is that creators can have YMMV pages as long as they don't consist of troping actual people. Even if GodEmperor's interpretation is correct, he's doing it wrong.

      Sent them a PM.

      Can a mod please revert his edits?

      ^ I'm currently reverting the page blankings. I might end up cut listing them later, however, God-Emperor needs to know that pages cannot be unilaterally deleted.

      Even if the YMMV pages trope the creator and not the works, you don't blank pages here ever. You can cut them, turn them into redirects, but not blank them.

      Subpages are an exception to that rule.

      @crazysamaritan: if there's a valid reason to blank a page, why not just send it to the cutlist?

      It is no longer the exception to the rule.
  • 1 Jan 17th, 2017 at 12:12AM
    Anime
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 01:26:39 AM
    Would Electric Tale of Pikachu count as What Do You Mean It's For Kids? or the opposite. This one confuses me because it's states it's a shonen which is considered for teenagers most of the time as there's already something called children's manga. Reply
  • 19 Jan 14th, 2017 at 8:08AM
    Lastest Reply: 17th Jan, 2017 01:25:44 AM
    Fallout 4, Factions page. Tried to undo the rather blatant "Railroad are good guys" slant, calling them out on various actions. Then Nubian Satyress starts reverting everything. More worryingly, she causes collateral damage during her edits, namely removing the Spy Speak trope.

    Not exactly a good sign, esp given the latter already invokes Godwins law on the Brotherhood. I'd like to make sure I have the community's consensus here before moving forwards.

    In either case, I readded the Spy Speak trope and I'm staying out of this for now. Don't want to risk edit wars. Reply

      I should point out that the Spy Speak example is a ZCE.

      It could use some extending. Yes, but they do give some context in it.

      No, it doesn't.

      • Spy Speak: Their members tend to employ this out in public.

      The example simply tells us the trope is present without explaining how. What is Spy Speak in the context of Fallout 4? How is it being used? The example doesn't say anything. Therefore, it's a ZCE.

      The Railroad gives callsigns to the members as well as using Roadsigns (a reference to the Thieves Guild shadow sign) to signal them.

      I haven't played Fallout 4, but those edits do seem a bit biased to me. You deleted positive points about the Railroad and deleted negative points about the BOS (and Gunners) that weren't complain-y in tone, while also complaining about the Railroad with your own edits, and you shoehorned a few of those complaints into irrelevant tropes. You should let the reader decide how they should feel about their actions, not add your own judgement to it. If you think that there's a bias towards a faction on there, tone it down without demonizing them.

      Also your edit to the Army of Thieves and Whores example removed all the context that made it even fit the trope. You can't assume that readers are going to know who the Raiders are.

      ^^ The Spy Speak example does not reference that, nor does it describe what said signs look like. I've given the entire example, copied from the page, and it doesn't tell anyone how it fits. Examples must stand on their own.

      The objective parts of work articles should be based on fact, not opinion. It was Bethesda's intention to provide factions in FO4 that are not explicitly evil and not explicitly good, but to let the player choose on the basis of which ideology they identify with most. Accordingly, we should write the articles neutrally, discussing the strengths and weaknesses of the factions without telling the reader which is better or worse (nor implying the same).

      • The Brotherhood believes that technology is too dangerous in the hands of the general population, that mutants and synths are intolerable, and wants to institute military control over humanity.
      • The Institute believes that the Commonwealth is a write-off and wants to rebuild human society using high technology and with synths as slaves/workers/soldiers.
      • The Railroad believes that synths should have the same rights as humans yet its operational structure resembles that of a terrorist organization.
      • The Minutemen believe in minarchist democracy, but harbor a fair share of bigots and malcontents, and their structure is extremely weak to demagogery.

      IMO the existing article leaned quite heavily on the pro-railroad, anti-brotherhood side, (Calling the Brotherhood the greatest threat to the Commonwealth's freedom, for one). Any attempt to equalize the tone of a currently biased article would lean towards being biased against the exant bias itself.

      My point is, the Railroad are heavily hypocritical, care little for human life, and to the average joes, is no better than the institute. Both hide out in their underground lairs, spouting ideology and infiltrating damn near everyone, points that really aren't mentioned much in the current page, where they're made out to be these heroic rebels that they definitely aren't.

      My goals, as far as those edits go, were to make it clear the the Railroad are Synth-obssesed borderline terrorists (I use the term borderline because while they engage in similar guerilla tactics and wanton disregard for human life, fear-mongering wasn't part of their goal.) As for the pro-brotherhood bit. From what I've seen on the trope page (Which I've actually read before playing the game), they're made out to be an evil empire of self-righteous fascists. Yet they really don't try to conquer anything. They're there to clean up the major threats against humanity, both locally and as a whole, not to conquer Diamond City, and yet are given epithets like "greatest threat to freedom" "A nazi by any other name" and "fascist".)

      Yes. I am by no means unbiased (I <3 Paladin-esque figures. The brotherhood are clearly the paladin-esque faction.) And I accept that further changes and edits after my own will be required for a truly neutral point of view. But ham-fisted and over-eager reverts won't change anything.

      Walrus, you're being part of the problem. If you can't be objective, don't "de-bias" the page; instead, leave the editing to others.

      In case anyone is interested in knowing, Darth Walrus is still making pro-BOS edits on the Characters.Fallout 4 Factions page.

      In this case, it's not really that big of a deal. He said that the Brotherhood of Steel made the East Coast stable "without making the locals' lives a living hell". Thing is, though, there's no way we can know that because we've never seen the East Coast after Maxson took over as leader. However, talking to several faithful BOS members, who believe in Maxson's leadership of the organization, the BOS has returned to the pre-Lyons (the previous leader) sentiment of placing control of technology over the safety or freedoms of the populace. In previous games, the BOS didn't give two hoots about the well-being of other people so long as it didn't involve powerful technology or threaten the BOS itself.

      Long story short, we have NO way to confirm that the Brotherhood of this game isn't making life hell on the East Coast.

      Another question:

      The Swordsman edited the page again, changing two things:
      • He states that the BOS cannot be "self-centered" as they send patrols to protect Commonwealth citizens.
        • This statement ignores the fact that this ONLY applies to humans. They hunt down and kill mutants and Synths, regardless of whether or not they're hostile.
      • He says that the BOS plan on leaving the Commonwealth after establishing order.
        • We only have the BOS's word that's the case. And even if they did, nothing stops them from returning for any reason they choose.

      Said mention of the Brotherhood as compared to Caesar's Legion existed prior to me editting. I was simply reverting collateral damage you inflicted on the page in your wave of reverts. (You removed everything after the word "Under", leaving an incomplete description. I just fixed it). Beyond cleanup and a little snark, I've maintained a hands off policy, as Fighteer requested.

      From what we've seen, you're not better than I am on the bias. I'd be happy to work with you on an actually neutral page, but barring that, the Swordsman seems like a reliable third POV. We should move actual discussion over lore details to the relevant discussion page, for posterity's sake if nothing else.

      That wasn't "collateral damage". I edited those parts on purpose.

      I'd prefer to have someone else tell me whether or not my edits seem biased. I've done my best to explain my edits within the context of the game's stories, and I don't really trust your position at this point.

      Darth Walrus, Nubian Satyress, please stop arguing. Neither of you are making making any points.

      I'll stop, but I don't understand what you mean by "making any points".

      Basically, neither of you have accomplished anything other than making yourselves look petty.

      Then I apologize, though I don't have any idea what I did wrong or could do better.

      Nubian, if you edited those parts on purpose, how come you only removed a portion, and left it in an incomplete state for over a day? It really does give the impression that in your haste to delete a comparison between the Brotherhood and the Railroad, you axed part of another entry.

      Here's a "Quote" of the edit, if you will. The bolded parts were the ones removed.

      • To Caesar's Legion. Much like how the Legion emulates Rome (or at least cherry-picks what suits them), the East Coast Brotherhood of Steel is evoking feudal/medieval imagery, albeit infused with technology and memories of its US military origins. But whereas the Legion's ultimately unstable and desperate to firmly establish its "New Rome" in New Vegas, the Brotherhood under Elder Maxson have already managed to pull it off in the Capital Wasteland without making life hell for the locals.
      • To the Railroad. The Railroad are single-mindedly obsessed with Synth Freedom, even at the cost of countless human lives while the Brotherhood sees it as their duty to safeguard humanity as a whole from threats such as the Synths.

      Your accusations a few posts before that, implied that I added the entirety of this comparison, when it was infact, added by someone else over a year ago.

      PS. I know this kind of giant post is a bit of an over-reaction, but I don't like getting accused of something I didn't do.

      Stop bickering, you two. Otherwise both of you will receive a break.
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