Ask The Tropers - TV Tropes

Ask The Tropers

Appeals to the troper hivemind...

If you want to propose a new trope, use YKTTW; if you're looking for a particular trope, try Lost And Found. For a discussion on a particular topic, head over to the Forum instead.

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DrakeClawfang
Medium:
07:15:08 AM 3rd Aug 2015
edited by DrakeClawfang
Opinions would be appreciated at Starcraft Mass Recall and its discussion, please. I've been drawn into an edit war with the creator of the mod and one way or the other I'm not in the interests of perpetuating that.
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DrakeClawfang
07:15:08 AM 3rd Aug 2015
So, anyone?

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IenHenzX
Medium:
06:48:20 AM 3rd Aug 2015
So in this fanfiction article I've created, how do I add new top bar things to it? Like 'funny', 'tearjerker, awesome, nightmare fuel, that sort of stuff. I've click on the 'add new' tab, but it doesn't show me any of those, only the ones like trivia and YMMV. How do I do this?
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Adept
06:48:20 AM 3rd Aug 2015
You change the URL into the desired subpage and edit them. For example, if you want to add a YMMV subpage to the work, you go to http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/WorkName and add whatever entries you see fit. Just remember that you are not allowed to add Audience Reaction subpages if you are troping your own work as a creator.

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KyleJacobs
06:37:14 AM 3rd Aug 2015
We have a Disney/ namespace for works in the Disney animated canon.
Adept
06:45:48 AM 3rd Aug 2015
Indeed, but are those additional namespace redirects necessary? It's all referring to the same medium/product.

I thought redirects are only added if the original source material are adapted to other mediums, such as Manga to Anime, or Literature to Film, etc.

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MagBas
Medium:
06:42:53 AM 3rd Aug 2015
Troll Brutal removed recently an example in Live Action Films with "He's portrayed as unambigously heroic, and cosidering that the Kryptonians are about to wipe out the city and mankind, he's just the taking care of the bigger picture." as edit reason.

Opinions?
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TrollBrutal
03:09:02 PM 1st Aug 2015
edited by TrollBrutal
Hi, I commented it better in discussion (sorry about those broken sentences, I'm pretty bad with write-only-once texts, as is the case with edit reason's boxes)

He's portrayed as unambiguously heroic throughout (sp) the movie, going out of his way to save people, but he can't fight all the battles at the same time.

I fail to see how he qualifies as a Designated Hero for duking it out with the Big Bad, who is a world ending genocidal villain.

(The "OMG! destruction of property, how can you call him a hero?" found elsewhere is a bit silly)

You can also see that the entry presented two points of view , aka argues against itself. Justifying edit, Natter to me, even if it's a YMMV trope, which warrants a Repair, Don't Respond.
MorningStar1337
04:24:16 PM 1st Aug 2015
Yeah the collateral damage bit is some everything in the Superhero genre is just as guilty of.
Adept
06:42:53 AM 3rd Aug 2015
edited by Adept
But Designated Hero is a YMMV trope, which means that it doesn't matter what the creators intentions' are. The audiences' perception matters more.

In fact, that's exactly what the definition of Designated Hero is: the character is presented in-story as an ambiguously heroic character despite the fact that they do things that are decidedly unheroic. If their less-than-moral deeds are depicted in-universe as a character flaw of sorts, than he is an Anti-Hero rather than this trope.

I haven't actually seen Man of Steel, but based on the arguments against it, a lot of people were turned off by the fact that Superman is portrayed as such a destructive "hero" who causes more harm than good.

So, yeah, the Man of Steel entry is a valid point. If it contains a justifying edit, just remove that last line, rather than the whole entry.

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Adept
Medium:
06:24:13 AM 3rd Aug 2015
Misharia's edits contain a lot of grammatical error. They seem to have some problem with handling spoilers as well.
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alaman
Medium:
05:26:00 AM 3rd Aug 2015
Can anybody explain to me the massive changes in BlindIdiotTranslation.Video Games? On 28th April 15 it looks like a LOT was deleted for no apparent reason. But maybe I just don't get it
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DracMonster
11:06:18 AM 2nd Aug 2015
edited by DracMonster
Zemplin Templar reorganized the page - as far as I can tell, he didn't actually delete anything, just moved stuff around. (To the server, that looks like deleting and then adding again.)
bwburke94
09:34:31 PM 2nd Aug 2015
Are you sure none of it was deleted? A reorganization is the perfect cover for deletion, and it's likely at least one example was deleted purely by accident.
DracMonster
05:26:00 AM 3rd Aug 2015
Well I'm not going to spend three hours scrutinizing every line - someone else can if they're that concerned.

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wrm5
Medium:
05:25:24 AM 3rd Aug 2015
edited by wrm5
Yep, it's this again. I noticed that the pages for Wallbangers.Death Battle and DethroningMoment.Death Battle have been blanked by Fighteer. There was no edit reason left on either page and I can't find anything here, or on the forums, or on the discussion pages, aside from Septimus saying he thought the pages were "lame."

So, I'm curious. I know the mods can more or less make decisions like this on their own within reason, but was there actually a discussion on this that I'm not seeing, or did Fighteer just get pissed one day?

(To be fair, I wouldn't blame him if he did get tired of seeing it pop up once a week or so, I'm just curious.)
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Candi
08:19:50 PM 2nd Aug 2015
Check out the Locked Pages thread (might have to go back two/three pages by now) and search Death Battle here for some of the history.

There's some stuff on edit banned/suspended, but that's a side dish.
wrm5
11:40:42 PM 2nd Aug 2015
Ah, fair enough. And like I said, I can totally understand him and the other mods getting tired of seeing Death Battle pop up here every other f**king week.
Candi
02:36:53 AM 3rd Aug 2015
And Locked Pages after the lock...
Fighteer
05:25:24 AM 3rd Aug 2015
The articles' text states our reasoning.

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LogoP
Medium: Film
04:24:21 AM 3rd Aug 2015
Lots of vitriol in this review's comment section. Personal attacks, people telling eachother to fuck off, trolling accusations... Could use a mod warning.
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sgamer82
Medium:
01:31:58 AM 3rd Aug 2015
How do I cancel a cut-list submission?

I was doing a migration of Manga.Centaur No Nayami to Manga.A Centaurs Life. I noticed too late I accidentally added the wrong pages to the Cut List. I accidentally submitted Funny.A Centaurs Life and Headscratchers.A Centaurs Life when it should be their Centaur no Nayami equivalents.
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Morgenthaler
01:12:22 AM 3rd Aug 2015
There's a "pause" button next to each individual cutlist submission. You can use that to add a note to the submission's discussion page asking for it not to be cut, though merely clicking the button by itself also alerts the cutmasters that something's up.
SeptimusHeap
01:31:58 AM 3rd Aug 2015
I've declined the requests.

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mlsmithca
Medium:
11:57:49 PM 2nd Aug 2015
There's probably a forum thread where it would be more appropriate to ask this, but are there plans in the works to re-disable strikethrough markup? I remember it was originally disabled because of rampant misuse for the purpose of "jokes" that weren't funny or clever, and since the site overhaul that resulted in its being re-enabled, it's starting to be used for that purpose again. I've been zapping it where I've found it, but if it's here to say, well, I'll scale back such efforts.
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chasemaddigan
07:01:53 PM 2nd Aug 2015
I'm pretty sure we're letting it slide right now since the strikethroughs aren't becoming that big of a problem. As long as they're not obvious Take Thats, they're okay to be used sparingly.
Candi
08:21:32 PM 2nd Aug 2015
Here's the tech bug and wishlist forums if you want to ask there. :)
mlsmithca
11:57:49 PM 2nd Aug 2015
Done and done.

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lalalei2001
Medium:
09:37:51 PM 2nd Aug 2015
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bwburke94
09:37:51 PM 2nd Aug 2015
It's an outright fake work page created by one person. Cutlisted.

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RaustBD
Medium:
09:15:02 PM 2nd Aug 2015
Just checking to make sure that this trope removal somebody did is actually valid, and if so, what a better trope to put this under would be.

I added the following to the YMMV page for JLA: Act of God:

  • Character Derailment: Wonder Woman, servant, avatar, and occasionally member of the Greek pantheon, would never, under any circumstances whatsoever, even after losing all of her powers and being being driven to despair, be seen in a Catholic church, praying to the Christian God.

It was soon after removed by another user who said that Character Derailment isn't allowed even as a YMMV trope because "Character Derailment is Flame Bait". Is this true? And if so, is there some other trope I could put that information under? Because it's factually correct and I feel it's meaningful information.
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tryrar
02:46:02 PM 2nd Aug 2015
It's in the flame bait index. Problem is it doesn't have the flame bait banner due to a conflict with the YMMV banner, or that's how I remember it. But yeah, it's flame bait, so the removal was correct
VeryMelon
02:48:20 PM 2nd Aug 2015
1. Character Derailment is Flame Bait.

2. Out-of-Character Moment isn't Flame Bait but it isn't YMMV either. If you want to keep the information put it under this trope on the main page.
RaustBD
02:49:51 PM 2nd Aug 2015
edited by RaustBD
So what is the deal with Flame Bait? I'm assuming it doesn't mean "a trope that really shouldn't exist but does anyway", and the trope page itself has plenty of examples and isn't locked, so under what conditions is a Flame Bait trope acceptable to bring up?

Also, is there some other trope I could list the inconsistency/absurdity of Wonder Woman turning Catholic under?

Edit: Thanks Very Melon.
MyFinalEdits
03:33:37 PM 2nd Aug 2015
Flame Bait pages shouldn't be listed anywhere, period. It's more like those Darth Wiki and Sugar Wiki pages that shouldn't be referenced in the main wiki. The only difference is that FB is still in the main namespace itself.
Candi
05:00:46 PM 2nd Aug 2015
Character Derailment has examples on its page?

Um, is that allowed for Flame Bait tropes?

I can't remember if it's come up before.
MyFinalEdits
09:15:02 PM 2nd Aug 2015
edited by MyFinalEdits
"Um, is that allowed for Flame Bait tropes?"

Depends on which pages and their subject. Some of them have examples, and some don't.

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PPPSSC
Medium:
08:21:27 AM 2nd Aug 2015
I was reading the What Do You Mean, It Wasn't Made on Drugs? page and came across an example where the "made on drugs" element was borrowed directly from another work (specifically the Quiznos ad that uses rathergood characters). Would that still count as an example for the Quiznos ad?
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Zhale
Medium: Videogame
04:09:42 AM 2nd Aug 2015
Which message should I use if another troper undid my changes? Though it may depend on how well one sees in color, I removed references to "albino" in Grim Fandango, only to see them today replaced with the word "white". If it's opinion I'll just let it go, but as far as I can tell it's clearly any color other than white. Thank you.
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SeptimusHeap
09:10:28 AM 1st Aug 2015
We only have messages for problems, and "undid my changes" is not a problem per se. Was the change inaccurate in some way?
Zhale
09:15:36 AM 1st Aug 2015
I think so because that alligator looks pretty "not-white" to me. Perhaps it was white in the original and isn't in Remastered? Unfortunately, I don't have a save right now at that part to check.
DracMonster
09:52:06 AM 1st Aug 2015
Video here, skip to 6 minute mark. Looks grayish-green to me.
jormis29
06:37:12 PM 1st Aug 2015
edited by jormis29
Look here and here then say thats not white

Manny even calls it "pink-eye" and it is only albinos that have pink eyes
Candi
07:08:42 PM 1st Aug 2015
Technically, the red/pink eye effect is caused by the reflection of blood vessels through a transparent iris. It's possible for non-albinos to have red eyes, it's just crazy rare.

That gator looks pale grayish-green to me in all the submitted samples.

"Pinkeye" is an inflammation of the cornea and eye membranes, which can be caused by irritation or disease.
jormis29
07:24:37 PM 1st Aug 2015
edited by jormis29
So you your saying that it is a Sewer Gator (who are usually depicted as albinos) who just ramdomly happens to have an eye infection?
jormis29
07:40:01 PM 1st Aug 2015
edited by jormis29
BTW a quick search shows that others call it white or albino. See here, here or here
jormis29
07:42:05 PM 1st Aug 2015
edited by jormis29
And here's a quote from Schafer
“It’s kinda nuts, this game,” he says. “You’re playing it and all of a sudden you’re standing in a sewer with a giant white alligator and you’re wearing an aztec mask.”
MattStriker
04:09:42 AM 2nd Aug 2015
I suspect the fact that it doesn't exactly look white (just pale) is supposed to, well...reflect the lighting conditions.

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audiogamer22
Medium:
02:15:46 AM 2nd Aug 2015
Hello. I'm new to this trope thing; and think it's awesome! I'm sorry if this doesn't belong hear but I can't find a way to make a new forum post or thread, I'm posting to tell you guys I've found some spelling mistakes. First off is on the sign up page. Once you fill in your Username, Password and that awesome capture, (I'm blind so the capture is awesome to people like us who use screen readers,.) I mean; all you do is tick a checkbox and you're done. Anyway I'm getting off topic, so I filled in all that information and when you go to the heading that has the thank you message, I've noticed there's a couple words squashed together, please could this be fixed? One more thing; I could have sworn I found a spelling mistake on a page I'd opened and left open to show you guys, but now I can't find it at all. Is there any way I can edit pages? speaking of editing; is it possible for the people who manage the site to use the <label> tag in this site? here's an article on how the <label> tag is very useful to someone who is blind or Visually impaired http://webdesign.about.com/od/forms/a/aa052206.htm Thanks for reading, Brad. AKA, audiogamer22.
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Candi
07:20:33 PM 1st Aug 2015
Welcome to TV Tropes. :)

For edits to Locked Pages, you want this thread.

The site uses its own formatting language. It's at Administrivia.Text Formatting Rules.

If you want to make suggestions for new coding, you'll want this forum.

You can usually edit any unlocked pages, but be very careful on Administrivia -official rules and guidelines- pages.

Be careful when editing in general. The standards here are fairly high, and the mods' first job is to prevent damage to the wiki. If you need help, just ask. :)

This is an awesome site. Mind your manners and follow the rules, and you will be gold.

Have fun!
audiogamer22
12:33:22 AM 2nd Aug 2015
Hi. Thanks Candi for the links. I'll check them out later on today. I don't think I'll be editing anything myeself since i don't want to break any rules. If i come across spelling mistakes, I'll look in the forum for answers and if i can't find any, I'll try to mmake a thread if possible. Thanks again for your quick response.
Candi
02:15:46 AM 2nd Aug 2015
Hmmm... the Get Help with English thread might be useful to you. Your English is fine, but it would be one way to make sure your edits were well-done before you inserted them. It can be a bit slow at times.

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KingZeal
Medium:
01:19:44 AM 2nd Aug 2015
Hey everybody. I'm trying to launch this YKTTW, but don't see a Launch button anywhere.

Has something changed that I'm not aware of? Thanks.
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Bisected8
06:48:29 PM 1st Aug 2015
edited by Bisected8
I can see the launch button. It's in the row of buttons immediately below the last reply on the list which goes:

[reply] [close replies] [launch] [discard]
KingZeal
08:00:22 PM 1st Aug 2015
Yeah, I don't see that.

Are my YKTTW privileges revoked or something?
GoldenFootballPlayer
08:21:54 PM 1st Aug 2015
Well you can check the Edit Banned/Suspended thread; if you can post there, then probably.
KingZeal
08:39:00 PM 1st Aug 2015
I already know I'm forum banned. What I'm not sure, however, is if that transfers over to YKTTW.
Candi
10:15:15 PM 1st Aug 2015
From reading EBS, YKTTW is a separate ban from the forums, and the wiki is separate from both.
Fighteer
10:38:29 PM 1st Aug 2015
King Zeal, there is no restriction on your YKTTW privileges.
KingZeal
11:39:11 PM 1st Aug 2015
Then would you have any idea why the Launch button isn't showing up? Is that a common glitch/problem/concern?
SeptimusHeap
01:19:44 AM 2nd Aug 2015
No, the issue is that you are forum banned. A forum ban for some reason does remove the launch button. I'll ask for a fix.

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NativeJovian
Medium:
01:17:12 AM 2nd Aug 2015
So, a few years ago, a guy made up a Tabletop RPG designed around Humongous Mecha called Giant Guardian Generation and put it up online for people to see. We've got a page for it at TabletopGame.Giant Guardian Generation. Fast forward to now, and Giant Guardian Generation underwent a lot of refinement and had a successful Kickstarter, and was released as an actual product — you can buy it as a PDF or a printed-to-order book from Drive Thru RPG. It's now called Battle Century G, which we don't have a page for.

It's basically the same work, just cleaned up, expanded, and generally turned from a hobby project to something more professional. So should I leave the existing Giant Guardian Generation page alone and start a new Battle Century G page, or make one page under the new Battle Century G name and turn Giant Guardian Generation into a redirect?
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SeptimusHeap
01:17:12 AM 2nd Aug 2015
Redirect, I'd say, if it's the same work but under a new name.

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singing30
Medium:
11:46:43 PM 1st Aug 2015
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phoenix
11:46:43 PM 1st Aug 2015
edited by phoenix
It shouldn't be an index, since it's a Characters page. You do need to add it to an index, though. See How Indexing Works for information on how to do that. Also, you probably will want to add content to the page sooner rather than later, otherwise it's likely to be cut for being a stub. One last thing: Make sure to watch out for spelling and grammar errors. There's a thread here if you need any help with that sort of thing.

Edit: The specific index you want to put the page on is Characters.Live Action TV.

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Rikun
Medium:
08:39:37 PM 1st Aug 2015
I'm thinking of the trope where a telepath tries to read the mind of a character, only to discover that said mind is so twisted that the telepath breaks down over the mental stress. Basically, imagine what would happen if Professor X tried to read Deadpool's mind, or on the DC side Raven attempts to read Joker's mind.
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KingZeal
06:36:07 PM 1st Aug 2015
GoldenFootballPlayer
08:39:37 PM 1st Aug 2015
edited by GoldenFootballPlayer
To add on to KingZeal's post, you can post in Lost and Found for all your future needs.

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phoenix
Medium:
01:18:09 PM 1st Aug 2015
I know troping real people is a no-no, but what about events, wars, etc.? I came across UsefulNotes.Spanish Civil War, which has a (long) trope list. This seems like something that probably isn't allowed, but I want to make sure.
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Candi
10:41:29 PM 31st Jul 2015
edited by Candi
Since the point of the Useful Notes pages are to help those writing fiction to get things right (or get them wrong properly), any tropes strictly about real life can probably be thoroughly axed with prejudice.

Edit: Right, not write...
phoenix
12:01:02 AM 1st Aug 2015
edited by phoenix
Okay, I nuked the troping of real life from that page, then checked some of the other pages on the same index and found more of these problematic sections. Then I came across even more on other Useful Notes pages: Attila the Hun, The American Revolution, The Enlightenment, Holy Roman Empire, and Amish. And then I got sad. We may have an epidemic on our hands.

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm talking about troping of the real life event, not its fictional portrayals.
Candi
01:35:55 AM 1st Aug 2015
Sounds like you may want to head for the long term projects forum. :( Dunno if there's a thread there or if you'd have to make one, though.
phoenix
01:18:09 PM 1st Aug 2015
There wasn't one, so I created a cleanup thread. Hopefully it'll gain some traction, since there are nearly 1700 Useful Notes to look through.

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Spinosegnosaurus77
Medium:
11:40:39 AM 1st Aug 2015
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SatoshiBakura
04:36:07 AM 1st Aug 2015
edited by SatoshiBakura
It got permanent membership to the Permanent Red Link Club. It troped real people, which is not allowed on this site.
MorningStar1337
08:40:24 AM 1st Aug 2015
edited by MorningStar1337
Wouldn't the same be said of most of the tropes for that site? or is there something about troping quotes that discounts it from RL.

Also I'm not see that specific page in the PRLC page.
Morgenthaler
09:07:30 AM 1st Aug 2015
In fact, there's currently an active clean-up project for website articles that document gossip or are otherwise off-mission. Fundies was discussed there, but the project has stalled a bit due to lack of contributors.
MorningStar1337
09:25:46 AM 1st Aug 2015
edited by MorningStar1337
BTW should someone PM the people that used to edit the page? It's clear that they should be notified that the page is cut, lest they think it a mistake and try to add it back again (granted it is locked, but still)

Also I think ti shoudl be a good idea ot have something that shows it is in the PRLC on the page itself as opposed to just the PRLC page.
SeptimusHeap
10:22:21 AM 1st Aug 2015
The lock indicates it is in PRLC. We'll be working on a more granular system for 2.0.
Fighteer
11:40:39 AM 1st Aug 2015
Websites like FSTDT may utilize narrative and presentation tropes, and may develop "characters" that present characterization tropes, but the people who run it and use it may not be troped as themselves.

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Spinosegnosaurus77
Medium:
11:10:54 AM 1st Aug 2015
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Karxrida
09:34:43 AM 1st Aug 2015
edited by Karxrida
It isn't? It's not listed on the Flame Bait page, at least.

I'm pretty sure you can delete tropes examples that are written in such a way that they become Flame Bait. I recently deleted a They Changed It, Now It Sucks example in YMMV.Sonic Advance because it was a unnecessary jab at the Genesis-era fans with a pothole to Fandumb and nothing of substance. However, for that deleted example your linked I'm not sure what to make of it.
MorningStar1337
09:53:46 AM 1st Aug 2015
edited by MorningStar1337
I reading the example in question and it seems to be complainign that Watterson thinks that political correctness has gone mad and decided to parody it in response. I might have to take a look on the linked page and Ban on Politics to see of PCGM examples are allowed on ymmv pages.
MagBas
11:10:54 AM 1st Aug 2015

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DracMonster
Medium:
07:06:09 AM 1st Aug 2015
edited by DracMonster
Socialjusticehoe's first edit is an unexplained deletion. I could message them, but what with picking an MRA-sounding handle like that as well, maybe they should just be tapped straight away?
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Fighteer
07:06:09 AM 1st Aug 2015
I concur with the precautionary ban.

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TheRoguePenguin
Medium: Western Animation
02:15:02 AM 1st Aug 2015
Need indexing on We Bare Bears.
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SeptimusHeap
02:15:02 AM 1st Aug 2015
Done.

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rmctagg09
Medium:
02:14:03 AM 1st Aug 2015
Is there a trope or Trivia page for a creator who's done works in more than one genre?
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SeptimusHeap
02:14:03 AM 1st Aug 2015
There is the Trope Finder.

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Ego-Man25
Medium:
10:39:38 PM 31st Jul 2015
Whenever I try to post a review on a work, or post a comment on a review, I keep on getting this message that says that feature has been turned off for me.

What do I do if I want to post reviews again?
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Candi
10:39:38 PM 31st Jul 2015
Go here, ask why you're review suspended and how you can fix whatever is wrong. (There is something wrong, or you wouldn't be suspended.)

And be polite. I can not stress that enough. Read half a dozen pages or so of that thread while you're waiting; it's very educational.

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Twiddler
Medium:
08:18:42 PM 31st Jul 2015
On The Art of War, why is 'Chinese' in quotes?
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Bisected8
02:31:08 PM 31st Jul 2015
Presumably because it pre-dates China as a unified nation?
DracMonster
02:33:12 PM 31st Jul 2015
edited by DracMonster
I removed them — don't know if someone was trying to italicize or what.

Edit: ^Or that, but it still doesn't make much sense.
Candi
02:39:01 PM 31st Jul 2015
edited by Candi
The region currently known as "China" has split and reformed many times through its history. Usually it reformed by one of the split kingdoms beating the rest and attaching them.

The Art of War is believed to have been written and/or collected during one of those times, and the attributed author definitely lived in one of those times. So while he would have been one of the Chinese ethnicities in the huge region encompassed by modern-day China, he likely would have identified himself as a resident of the kingdom he lived in.

That's probably why Chinese was put in quotes. It could be considered excessively nitpicky or pedantic, depending on your POV.
rodneyAnonymous
08:18:42 PM 31st Jul 2015
edited by rodneyAnonymous
Quotation marks should be used to denote a quotation (at least an implied one, as in the following sentence). So-called "scare quotes" are bad style in any medium. If that's not the word or phrase you mean, then use a different one. If that is the word or phrase you mean, then there is no need to use quotation marks.

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gallium
Medium: Film
04:37:07 PM 31st Jul 2015
Films By Alfred Hitchcock

First, it's orphaned, without an index. Second, do we need an Alfred Hitchcock page, and then a second page listing his films? Couldn't we just put them on the Creator page, perhaps within a folder? I'd like to do a cut-and-paste and put Films By Alfred Hitchcock on the cut list, but that would be a Large Change edit, and it would require admin assistance to make the Alfred Hitchcock page do indexing.
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Nohbody
10:42:02 PM 22nd Jul 2015
No, there's no need for two pages. One of the primary purposes of creator pages is to provide an index of works with/by them, particularly the works with pages on TVT.

I'm not a staffer here, but I'd say you're clear for your suggested actions.
Candi
10:12:58 AM 23rd Jul 2015
Nohbody is a highly active and respected troper, though. (For what that's worth. /teasing)
gallium
10:42:21 AM 23rd Jul 2015
All righty then, the Films By Alfred Hitchcock page has been cut and pasted to the Alfred Hitchcock page and put within a folder. I think a mod has to make the Alfred Hitchcock page do indexing.
gallium
12:39:50 PM 31st Jul 2015
Bump!

Alfred Hitchcock doesn't seem to be doing indexing. It has index tags but no index shows up for The Lodger or the other films.
Morgenthaler
02:15:07 PM 31st Jul 2015
Presumably because the page isn't set to do indexing—that feature, with the rest of the page type system, can now only be accessed by the mods. However, AFAIK articles for creative individuals aren't typically used to index their works.
gallium
03:51:59 PM 31st Jul 2015
I thought a moderator would have to make the page index, yes.

Martin Scorsese, Akira Kurosawa, and Stanley Kubrick are indexes. I imagine there are probably similar creator indexes in other media.
Fighteer
04:35:00 PM 31st Jul 2015
This is a case of an inadequately communicated rule. Creator pages can be indexes of works authored by that person, but since our indexing system isn't quite as comprehensive as, say, Wikimedia's categories, the ultimate outcome of allowing this is work articles with a vast collection of index bars for every actor, writer, director, production company, etc. that may have contributed to them.

The better way to do it is to link to all relevant Creator articles in the work's description. That way people can Wiki Walk through them without the pages looking cluttered.
Morgenthaler
04:37:07 PM 31st Jul 2015
edited by Morgenthaler
Usually it's just big production companies that are used to index works. It's been mentioned before that actor pages are specifically excluded from being used that way—don't know if that applies to directors as well. Though the fact that other such creators are used as indexes is not an argument for or against in itself; it just means it went unnoticed until now.

ETA: Ninja'd.

close replies  

MagBas
Medium:
03:37:20 PM 31st Jul 2015
edited by MagBas
Recently, in Pocahontas i removed a bit of natter in an Acceptable Ethnic Targets example and an Unfortunate Implications example without citation - both put by wetcrush. After this, wetcrush removed the Acceptable Ethnic Targets example and put again the Unfortunate Implications example, again without citation.
see/hide 2 replies  
Fighteer
03:06:15 PM 31st Jul 2015
Suspended and reverted.
MagBas
03:37:20 PM 31st Jul 2015
Thanks.

close replies  

Larkmarn
Medium: Live Action TV
02:32:56 PM 31st Jul 2015
edited by Larkmarn
Series.Keeping Up With The Kardashians, someone went ahead and changed pretty much every mention of Bruce Jenner to Caitlyn.

The thing is... he was never Caitlyn on the show. The show didn't touch upon her transition until the very end of the most recent season, and ended before he announced his name, etc.

And even if the show did include Caitlyn, changing mentions of Bruce in the past (specifically mentions of Olympic medals) seems... odd. I mean, if a fictional character changes their name in a work, we wouldn't retroactively change all mention of them to their new name, especially when discussing events that occurred while they had their original name.

Honestly not sure what to do, so I bring it up here.
see/hide 21 replies  
Fighteer
08:54:36 AM 27th Jul 2015
edited by Fighteer
I agree; that seems inappropriate. Caitlyn was not always Caitlyn, any more than my wife's last name was always my last name.
Larkmarn
09:16:19 AM 27th Jul 2015
edited by Larkmarn
Well put.

What about pronouns, though? Since it's apparently that Bruce has been identifying as a female for a time, should those stay feminine? Or since this is "new" information, should those be reverted as well (since there's no indication of this fact for 98% of the show's run)? I lean towards keeping it feminine, as it's more like The Reveal than a change.

... though calling Caitlyn their "step-mother" just comes across as odd considering she didn't come out until after they divorced.
Fighteer
09:40:25 AM 27th Jul 2015
edited by Fighteer
I'd use the pronouns corresponding to the expressed gender identity at the time of the show's run. Simple, logical, makes sense to observers.
Larkmarn
09:41:27 AM 27th Jul 2015
I suppose that makes sense. If he didn't make a statement to what he wants to be referred to as, it would be conjecture to go with anything but the default.

Can we get a revert, then?
Khantalas
09:42:08 AM 27th Jul 2015
Interesting.

There is a difficulty with documenting reality shows, because there are two facets we can approach it from: one, the actor, Caitlyn Jenner, née Bruce; and two, Bruce Jenner, the "role" she played on the show. In cases like this one, however, unlike most reality shows, the difference between Jenner and her role is quite important, and it can easily be seen as insensitive and a sign of disrespect for her and her identity.

The one thing that makes me lean towards keeping the Bruce's, though, is that we always write examples in the present tense, as they are at the time of the series' release. If the character was always Bruce, then references should keep the Bruce.

The pronoun thing is a bit more difficult, but if it was at all touched upon during the series, I'd go with female pronouns except in quotes. If not, we might keep the masculine ones, as long as we differentiate between the character and the actor.
bwburke94
11:59:38 AM 27th Jul 2015
In terms of reality TV, we treat the people as "characters", and because Jenner was male at the time and used the name Bruce, we treat Jenner as male and use the name Bruce.

Under no circumstance are female pronouns acceptable to refer to pre-op Jenner; this is no different than a character undergoing a sex change within the narrative of a fictional work.
rodneyAnonymous
12:05:53 PM 27th Jul 2015
I agree.
Bisected8
12:21:28 PM 27th Jul 2015
edited by Bisected8
^^ Strictly speaking, the norm is usually to identify a transwoman or transman with the pronouns they prefer, rather than based on some arbitrary point (a lot of transmen and transwomen never have an "op" per se).

Other than that, I agree with what Fighteer said; use whatever she identified by at the time (IIRC she preferred masculine pronouns for a brief time after coming out?).
Larkmarn
12:25:55 PM 27th Jul 2015
edited by Larkmarn
^ Correct. Until she came out as Caitlyn, even overly-PC outlets were going with "he" because Bruce never made any statements on a preferred pronoun (still using "he").

So yeah, reverts plz.

In a related note, is someone always a step-parent? The "step-mother Caitlyn" thing got me thinking... does someone stop being a step-parent when they get divorced?
Candi
12:42:25 PM 27th Jul 2015
Legally? Usually, but it can be iffy. Heart-wise? It depends on the family.

My first stepmother divorced my dad about 8 years ago now (at least), but he still considers her three kids his kids. (Their dad was very much not in the picture.)

As for the Jenner/Kardashian thing, I read this on my phone earlier when I wasn't in a position to post a reply. It got me thinking of movies like Hairspray, where one male actor played one male and one female part, transvestites, drag queens, and other situations where gender on and off screen didn't necessarily match, and where genetic vs physical vs declared genders don't match. (For instance, there's a medical condition where testosterone doesn't 'turn on' in the womb, so the person is genetically male but physically more-or-less female.)

Since this is fiction we're talking about, usually, I think it might be an idea to address the character by the gender of the character they're playing, rather than that of the actor. When RL is necessary, rule of thumb would be first Word of God (what the person wants), and after that whatever is polite.
mlsmithca
01:56:34 PM 27th Jul 2015
If/when the article is reverted, it may be prudent for a mod to put a commented out note at the top of the article instructing future editors not to unrevert it and explaining why it shouldn't be unreverted.
Fighteer
02:22:17 PM 27th Jul 2015
Reverted, suspended the troper making the edit.
KorKhan
03:00:26 PM 27th Jul 2015
edited by KorKhan
Seems a little harsh to suspend them, considering that the edit appears to have been made in good faith, as opposed to being malicious vandalism.
SolipSchism
03:11:06 PM 27th Jul 2015
^ Don't forget—a suspension isn't a punishment, it's a preventative measure. We don't do "timed" suspensions; it's not a matter of being in time-out for a set number of days or weeks.

The only purpose of a suspension is to prevent that user from doing the same thing on another page before someone has a chance to talk to them. If they stop by the Edit-Banned/Suspended thread and talk to the mods, and they show that they understand that what they did is unacceptable and won't happen again, odds are the suspension will be lifted immediately.

Damage is damage, whether it was vandalism or a mistake—the important thing is safeguarding the wiki.
crazysamaritan
03:37:53 PM 27th Jul 2015
Yep, basically it's a way to check that a user is aware of the relevant rules/policies so they don't make the same mistake again. Reading the Banned/Suspended thread is a good way to check for rules you might have missed.

Some people want to be dramatic when they have to post in that thread. They make reading the banned/suspended thread entertaining.
SolipSchism
03:41:00 PM 27th Jul 2015
^ Case in point—Because I monitor the EBS Thread, I actually just realized within the last couple of days that first-person writing is not allowed even on Darth Wiki, WMG, Headscratchers, and all the other nonsense pages that barely follow any rules to begin with, and had to go back and fix some of my own bad edits (specifically a couple of WMGs written in first-person).

Just goes to show you can be a regular editor for nearly a year and still be learning really obvious stuff.
Fighteer
05:20:24 PM 27th Jul 2015
edited by Fighteer
In point of fact, terms like "deadname" indicate a lack of good faith inherent to the SJW scene. We are strong believers in descriptive writing, not prescriptive. The wiki will not be turned into a venue for anyone's agenda, whether left or right.
Fighteer
06:00:09 PM 27th Jul 2015
Addition: We're going to use Wikipedia's notation on the article, because that seems to be the accepted convention.
Candi
06:08:28 PM 27th Jul 2015
@Solip: I recommend to any troper, especially the newbies, to read at least half a dozen pages of the EBS thread. It's very useful for getting a feel for the guidelines as well as knowledge of the rules.

Ideally, I'd say read the whole thing, but 376 pages and counting is a bit much, even for the very high... educational value the thread has. ;)
Twiddler
02:25:49 PM 31st Jul 2015
What's the EBS thread?
Bisected8
02:32:56 PM 31st Jul 2015
The Edit Banned Suspended thread.

Basically where you can appeal if you're suspended.

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Karxrida
Medium: Videogame
01:36:52 PM 31st Jul 2015
edited by Karxrida
Not sure if I should report this because it's kinda minor, but it really miffed me and I don't want to Edit War.

Sapph Sabre just undid my recent edits in YMMV.Super Smash Bros. I didn't give an edit reason (I felt like it was unnecessary since they were super minor edits for wording that condensed some stuff and changed the game names to their proper titles, i.e. 4 and Wii U/3DS to the proper 3DS/Wii U) but I feel like undoing everything I just did should require some explanation.
see/hide 15 replies  
Karxrida
06:26:29 AM 28th Jul 2015
Bump.
Fighteer
06:33:49 AM 28th Jul 2015
Looks like you had the article checked out for too long and your lock expired. This is why you need to submit changes within the window.
Karxrida
07:14:20 AM 28th Jul 2015
edited by Karxrida
Are you sure? Several edits were made before he went (me again, Darthrai, then Silverblade2) and I'm pretty positive I did it in time regardless.

Unless you mean he had his lock expire before submitting it?
Khantalas
07:26:54 AM 28th Jul 2015
edited by Khantalas
It does look far too on-the-nose to be deliberate. Is it posssible that the order is reversed? That SapphSabre started editing, the lock expired, you posted your edit, and then the edit went through with the old text?

Edit: no, it looks like there is another change his post hadn't reverted between yours and SapphSabre's. Still, don't think there is any malign intent here so much as a weird database thing.
Fighteer
07:56:06 AM 28th Jul 2015
Whichever of you had the lock expire, it's still a case of overlapping edits.
bwburke94
12:12:19 PM 28th Jul 2015
Of course, there's another question here - is Super Smash Bros. 4 a valid title for the 3DS and Wii U games in tandem? I'd be willing to put it down as a yes, despite the lack of an official shortened title.
Karxrida
12:45:53 PM 28th Jul 2015
It's a Fan Nickname while 3DS/Wii U is plastered on all the advertisements. The official name should take precedent to avoid Fan Myopia.
bwburke94
02:16:22 PM 28th Jul 2015
Referring to the 3DS and Wii U games as Super Smash Bros. 4 is not Fan Myopia, there is wide online coverage of the games under that umbrella title despite it not being official.
MyFinalEdits
02:43:12 PM 28th Jul 2015
The point is that the official title (as in, the title shown in the game boxes) are respectively Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and Super Smash Bros. for 3DS. The wiki should thus address the game as Smash U or Smash 3DS depending on which version fits the most with the trope examples. For one, the Character page of the newcomers for the new games is accordingle called Characters.Super Smash Bros For Nintendo 3 DS Wii U.
bwburke94
03:38:08 PM 28th Jul 2015
And yet we refer to the N64 game as Super Smash Bros. 64 or a variation thereof, despite there being no official usage of that name either?

Furthermore, the official title of the 3DS game is ...for Nintendo 3DS, not for 3DS.
Irene
06:00:39 PM 28th Jul 2015
We only use 64 because there's no way to tell that apart from the series name itself. U or 3DS as shortened titles are good enough. 4 is in no way an official title, but we still need to separate the versions properly.

64, Melee, Brawl, 3DS, Wii U are all pretty fair titles to give them and don't confuse the versions for anyone when on the appropriate pages.
bwburke94
01:05:02 PM 30th Jul 2015
I feel we're getting too caught up in what is "official" instead of what is "recognizable".
crazysamaritan
04:54:34 AM 31st Jul 2015
edited by crazysamaritan
What is "recognizable" can often be a hotly debated topic. What is "official" tends to be of more limited options.
Irene
05:31:43 AM 31st Jul 2015
Also, when it comes to DLC, "64" is directly used to mean the first game. Hyrule Castle(64), for instance. So yeah, that's exactly the official way to designate it from the series as a whole. As for recognizable, Smash 64, Melee, Brawl, Smash 3DS, and Smash Wii U are very widely accepted and recognizable ways to say it. But this is semantics. It's very easy to tell what people are referring to when specifying the slight abbreviation of which game. Likewise, Smash 4 is purely a fan nickname and Smash For is more used by Sakurai too.

It's silly to list it as Smash For 3DS every single time, but we could say For 3DS instead. For sounds a bit too confusing because it's a regular word, but we can also italicize the game name to make it a bit more clear. It's not that hard, really.
Candi
01:36:52 PM 31st Jul 2015
I respectfully request that this conversation be continued in the forms.

close replies  

VenomLancerHae
Medium:
01:34:48 PM 31st Jul 2015
Could The Chosen Many be two people or is it three or more?
see/hide 7 replies  
sgamer82
04:25:57 PM 30th Jul 2015
I'd say three or four, bare minimum, since my understanding of the trope is that it's a group of people with the same or similar powers
bwburke94
08:47:28 PM 30th Jul 2015
Using Buffy the Vampire Slayer as an example: Buffy and Kendra don't qualify, nor do Buffy and Faith. The trope only comes into play for real in the finale.
gallium
08:12:05 AM 31st Jul 2015
Just from a straight-up English-language standpoint, I don't see how "many" could ever mean "two".
VenomLancerHae
09:16:44 AM 31st Jul 2015
So, does The Chosen One cover two people then?
gallium
10:32:11 AM 31st Jul 2015
No, "one" means "one".

I dunno, maybe the answer is to change The Chosen Many to simply The Chosen.
VenomLancerHae
12:01:43 PM 31st Jul 2015
edited by VenomLancerHae
I understand that one means one. I'm just implying that if The Chosen Many and The Chosen One doesn't apply to two people who happen to be the chosen ones, then what trope does?

Candi
01:34:48 PM 31st Jul 2015
Well, that would be a question for Lost and Found, aka Trope Finder.

And if that work, to YKTTW!

close replies  

DarkBaltron
Medium:
01:00:39 PM 31st Jul 2015
edited by DarkBaltron
How to hide a image in a page?
see/hide 3 replies  
Khantalas
02:29:05 AM 31st Jul 2015
You need to elaborate. What do you mean by "hide an image"?
Bisected8
05:00:31 AM 31st Jul 2015
edited by Bisected8
If you mean create a "click here to show such and such image", it's normally done by putting the image markup in note markup, like this (the bold part is the image markup, the italic parts are the note markup):

[[labelnote:Click here to see the image.]] [[quoteright:350:http://www.tvtropes.org/imageurl]] [[/labelnote]]
rodneyAnonymous
01:00:39 PM 31st Jul 2015
If you mean hide as in "make it not appear on the page when it's viewed normally, but leave the code there in the article source", then you can comment it out using %%...

Example:

[[quoteright:350:http://www.tvtropes.org/imageurl]]

...becomes...

%%[[quoteright:350:http://www.tvtropes.org/imageurl]]

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Candi
Medium:
05:35:18 AM 31st Jul 2015
edited by Candi
After noticing a very bad series of edits on Age Of Bronze by jet556, I looked at their edit history.

Age Of Bronze shows poor examples, bad spelling, and misuse of tropes.

Random selections of his history show snippy edit reasons, more bad spelling, and I'm not sure what's going on here, except we don't refer to "above" examples.

He does some good edits too, such as naming the king in Kull the Conqueror, but most of what I'm seeing are a lot of small but consistent editing issues that go against wiki policy and will be a pain to clean up.

Edit: Woulde Age Of Bronze go on the Historical Fiction or Fantasy Literature indexes?
see/hide 2 replies  
KorKhan
05:19:09 AM 31st Jul 2015
There's also their edit on Hamlet, and their rather bizarre subsequent justification for it here.
SeptimusHeap
05:35:18 AM 31st Jul 2015
Suspension issued, no opinion on the index thingy.

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Khantalas
Medium:
03:22:03 AM 31st Jul 2015
edited by Khantalas
League Of Legends G To J seems to be growing an edit war, with Black Sun Nocturne especially being insulting to the other editors. Regardless of the correctness of his edits, at this point they are no longer valid, and he should probably be warned about his behavior.
see/hide 1 replies  
SeptimusHeap
03:22:03 AM 31st Jul 2015
Suspension handed out.

close replies  

Dalillama
Medium: Live Action TV
01:02:14 AM 31st Jul 2015
Why is the Dr. Who page edit locked? It's not on the list, so I've got nothing. (I was going to add an example of a just-launched trope)
see/hide 2 replies  
Khantalas
11:12:20 PM 30th Jul 2015
It's because it's a long-running, troperiffic series, so examples of trope use go in the correct subpage.
SeptimusHeap
01:02:14 AM 31st Jul 2015
And before the split, it was too large to be edited.

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Khantalas
Medium: Videogame
11:11:12 PM 30th Jul 2015
A recent edit in Xanatos Speed Chess moved an Ace Attorney example from the Visual Novels folder to the Video Games folder.

While I agree with the edit reason, given that Ace Attoeney games are closer to adventure games than true visual novels, we always categorize them under Visual Novel folders if a page has them, so I feel like that should be changed back.

But the real issue is that we don't really have a standard on where to place visual novel examples in the first place, or a strict understanding of what visual novels are. Many times, pages with visual novel examples place them under video games, or divide them between the video games and visual novels folder. That is assuming if the VN doesn't have a manga or anime adaptation, where even VN-specific examples may be placed if so. We might also place non-VN examples such as dating sims or text-heavy adventure games under the visual novel folder.

So the question is: where should we make such a standardization, if one is necessary?
see/hide 4 replies  
Karxrida
12:44:38 PM 28th Jul 2015
I personally think Visual Novels should just be listed under Video Game. They're played on the same platforms and Visual Novel is more of a genre than a different media type.
Khantalas
12:57:37 PM 28th Jul 2015
I would claim that visual novels are a submedium of literature than a genre of video games, but we haven't really standardized literature either, with online examples (other than fan fiction) equally placed under literature and web original, or light novels being placed under anime & manga just as often as they are placed under literature.
fllthdcrb
05:44:51 PM 30th Jul 2015
edited by fllthdcrb
If I may add my 2 cents, I've always thought visual novels are not games, because one of the essential elements of a game is interactivity, i.e. that you have significant influence on the course of events. But with a visual novel, you have—at best—a few choices to make, at designated branch points. Such VNs can technically be considered games because of that, but they're borderline. And that only applies to VNs that do include choices; some don't. Higurashi: When They Cry comes immediately to mind. In that case, I suppose you could call trying as a reader to solve the mystery the game, but the same applies to any traditional mystery novel, and I've never heard of anyone classifying them as games.

That said, it is convenient to group them with true games, for the reason Kaxrida gave, for purposes like distribution, review, discussion on gaming sites, etc.
Khantalas
11:11:12 PM 30th Jul 2015
Depends on how you define influence or the course of events. Generally you have a lot more influence on the story in a good visual novel than most other games, but that is a discussion for another space. What I wanted to know was how to standardize and enforce the labels instead of users going "no, this is where we should write the example". With 2.0 coming, it is a moot point, though, and I will have to wait and see how it's handled there.

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BlackMage
Medium:
09:49:12 PM 30th Jul 2015
edited by BlackMage
thatother1dude appears to be running a space to spaaace script as shown by their edits on Dwarf Fortress. (All the way back on 5th of July).
see/hide 1 replies  
Fighteer
09:49:12 PM 30th Jul 2015
Wrong user. It's Clear_Runway, and I've suspended them.

close replies  

Candi
Medium: Literature
04:28:30 PM 30th Jul 2015
When scanning for The Trojan Cycle for ideas of what to add to Age Of Bronze, I noticed that that article's a bit messy. There's a few ZCE's ("Aphrodite" is not enough context) and at least two examples referred to another example.

I have to attend to RL stuff, but I'd thought I post this here in case anyone else can get to it. :)
see/hide 1 replies  
sgamer82
04:28:30 PM 30th Jul 2015
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13226024250A77804400&page=1

The thread for ZCE cleanup. Offhand I'm not sure where to go in the forums for other issues. May depend on just what you need

close replies  

jormis29
Medium:
03:22:23 PM 30th Jul 2015
What do we do for laconics if two or more works have the swame title?

I'm asking because laconic for Stormfront has been created and the problem is it refers to just the neo-nazi site but the page for the first book of The Dresden Files has it's own page titled Storm Front.
see/hide 9 replies  
SeptimusHeap
02:17:22 AM 30th Jul 2015
Then it's probably pointless to have a laconic.
MrDeath
07:39:51 AM 30th Jul 2015
I'd question why we need any kind of page on that site.
Fighteer
07:42:09 AM 30th Jul 2015
Yeah, really. What?
freesefan
08:18:14 AM 30th Jul 2015
Recommend cutting the page for the Stormfront website immediately.
Ultimatum
09:20:14 AM 30th Jul 2015
Oh god who thought THAT needed a page?
SolipSchism
10:26:44 AM 30th Jul 2015
The reason is that both pages have the same title. The solution is to tweak the titles accordingly. Usually done by year, but I'm not sure how we'd do a website—but in this case it sounds like the website needs to go anyway, so it's moot in this case.

In a case where it wasn't moot—say, we had a trope called The Matrix—I believe the right answer would be to change Film.The Matrix to The Matrix (1999) (or whatever the exact year was). That way both pages can have a separate Laconic.
Fighteer
10:36:30 AM 30th Jul 2015
I am in the process of excising our article on the Stormfront website from the wiki, including any wicks and/or direct links to it.

Incidentally, while doing so, I discovered that we have Characters.Fundies Say The Darndest Things, which is about real people, so I'm cutting that as well — it helps that it's almost at the character limit anyway.
randomsurfer
02:43:16 PM 30th Jul 2015
Wiki.Metapedia should probably go too, for the same reason as Stormfront.
Fighteer
03:22:23 PM 30th Jul 2015
Uuuuuggggghhhhhh. Kill.

close replies  

PDL
Medium:
02:30:13 PM 30th Jul 2015
edited by PDL
I'm wondering if Sammy Classic Sonic Fan is an appropriate page to have on this site. The videos appear to be literally nothing but a Sonic the Hedgehog fan screaming and tantruming at the camera (and the audience).

I honestly have no idea if this is an elaborate troll or the author of the video has genuine mental issues. Either way, I feel that this isn't the sort of thing that should have a page on the site, as it heads straight into Sonichu-levels of cringe-worthy.
see/hide 8 replies  
Fighteer
10:43:53 AM 30th Jul 2015
edited by Fighteer
As far as 'notability' goes, it's fair game. The question I'd ask is whether this user just rants a lot or posts actual creative content. Our site is interested in creative works, not anyone who happens to have a YouTube channel or a blog. His mental stability is not really germane unless the article attracts a lot of trolling because of it; in that case it would indicate a lock rather than a cut.
SeptimusHeap
10:44:41 AM 30th Jul 2015
Borderline. One could frame that as a work by a persona. Or like recording a fan reaction with no storytelling value.
jamespolk
11:55:38 AM 30th Jul 2015
I dunno, There Is No Such Thing as Notability pretty much mandates that we have to let every bit of worthless garbage on the wiki, as long as someone out in the wide, wide world wants to make a page for it. God knows there's plenty of fanfiction tripe and other amateur works on the wiki.
SolipSchism
12:09:43 PM 30th Jul 2015
^ "This isn't notable" is different from "This is not a work of fiction". The questions raised above are not about notability, they're about whether this constitutes a work of fiction in the first place.
bwburke94
12:28:42 PM 30th Jul 2015
This is no more of a work of fiction than Chris-chan's similar videos.

Cut it.
Fighteer
12:51:55 PM 30th Jul 2015
edited by Fighteer
Not necessarily fiction, since we allow articles for non-fiction works. What we do require is that they be creative works — that is, that they make some use of narrative structure, production elements, etc. There is also the simple limitation of which works/topics our contributors are interested enough in to create articles for.

It seems that this vlog is of interest mainly because of its "badness", and our article mainly exists to ridicule the person in question, which is not a valid justification.
Candi
01:46:15 PM 30th Jul 2015
edited by Candi
Ridiculing RL people or works isn't kosher, correct?

Then maybe it should be cut on the guideline of bad articles that can't be salvaged.

Personally, I don't see the difference between what this guy is doing and a ranting written blog, but that could be me. I just don't see the story structure of even a good speech.
Fighteer
02:30:13 PM 30th Jul 2015
I've put it on the Cut List.

close replies  

ChaoticQueen
Medium:
02:21:20 PM 30th Jul 2015
Can a character be considered The Scrappy if the writers intended for the audience to hate said character? I'm asking because Cyanide and Happiness just released a new short, and already the fans absolutely hate Shark-Rad's son. The problem is that it's obvious that this was an Intended Audience Reaction.
see/hide 2 replies  
SolipSchism
02:18:58 PM 30th Jul 2015
"Note that this is not the same as a Hate Sink, a character intentionally designed to be disliked for actual villainous actions, but who is not necessarily perceived to detract from the work itself — the audience just wants him to suffer. Thus, such characters as Joffrey Baratheon and Dolores Umbridge, as universally hated as they are, are not considered Scrappies." (From The Scrappy's description)

Does that help? I'm not familiar with the work you're talking about so there's only so much I can say about that character.
Fighteer
02:21:20 PM 30th Jul 2015
A Scrappy, by definition, is a character that the audience hates, that the creators did not intend them to. So, no, it cannot be deliberate.

close replies  

NonoRobot
Medium:
01:42:39 PM 30th Jul 2015
edited by NonoRobot
Hello,

I have a quick question about our Handling Spoilers policies, regarding this rule in particular:

  • No spoilers in the main body of the description, above the "Examples" line. Just don't do it.

Does this rule also apply to characters descriptions in characters pages?
see/hide 9 replies  
bwburke94
12:26:55 PM 30th Jul 2015
Yes. This also applies to the folder names, in case you're wondering.
NonoRobot
12:29:16 PM 30th Jul 2015
edited by NonoRobot
It was obvious for folder names, but I was unsure it applied to this case, since I saw a couple of characters pages with some of the description hidden by spoiler tags. I'll be wary of that in the future and remove spoiler tags in characters descriptions if I see them.

Oh, by the way, what about characters who have an important alias, name change, or who actually turn out to be someone else completly? Can we spoilers those? Or should we refrain from adding such things next to their names? Example:

John Doe (Jane Dog)

Khantalas
12:37:28 PM 30th Jul 2015
I would say that the alias can be spoilered in the character's description, but not the header.
freesefan
12:49:16 PM 30th Jul 2015
I was under the impression that spoiler tags weren't to be used in character pages, period.
Fighteer
12:52:33 PM 30th Jul 2015
Nope, do not spoiler tag aliases.
NonoRobot
12:53:26 PM 30th Jul 2015
Thank you very much for your answers!
mlsmithca
12:56:18 PM 30th Jul 2015
There are occasional calls for Characters/ pages to be spoiler tag-free, but they've never gained enough traction to become official policy. It is official wiki policy that Recap/ pages have no spoiler tags (if you're reading the Recap/ page, you should already have seen the thing being recapped), but not Characters/ pages, which are subject to the same rules as the rest of the wiki.

Which means, to address Khantalas' comment, the alias cannot be spoiler tagged in the character's description either. Spoiler tags do not go above the example list for any reason. Not in folder titles, not in character image captions, not in character biographies. It's best to avoid spoilers in those locations entirely. The fact that there are a lot of Characters/ pages which ignore these rules is evidence not that they are exempt from them but that these rules haven't been strictly enforced until recently. If you are editing a Characters/ page and you find spoiler tags in folder titles, image captions, character biographies, or around the name of the trope at the beginning of a trope entry, delete them. Whether you also delete the text that was being spoiler tagged is best handled on a case-by-case basis.
Khantalas
12:59:29 PM 30th Jul 2015
I think of the trope list as the character description on the character pages. I generally ignore the paragraphs between the trope list and the header.
Candi
01:42:39 PM 30th Jul 2015
Re: Reading Recap pages, even if the person hasn't seen the ep, if they are on a page for a specific ep of a specific show, then they probably want to know what happened and accept the fact of spoilers.

There's a tool on Itty Bitty Wiki Tools for stripping out all spoiler tags on a page. Recommended in some cases for Character Pages; just remember to put the HERE BE SPOILERS warning above the example line if you use it.

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bwburke94
Medium: Live Action TV
01:00:36 PM 30th Jul 2015
Obvious question. Why is Doctor Who Audio Visuals in the Series/ namespace?

It should go in either Fanfic/ (if audio works are allowed in Fanfic/) or AudioPlay/ (if audio works are not allowed in Fanfic/) because the work is entirely audio-based.
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bwburke94
12:04:10 PM 27th Jul 2015
Bump. Which namespace is "correct", if any?
crazysamaritan
05:50:19 PM 29th Jul 2015
Bump for attention (not familiar with part of the franchise)
SeptimusHeap
02:18:17 AM 30th Jul 2015
Might be more of a forum question than an ATT one.
StFan
04:50:07 AM 30th Jul 2015
Series/ is for live-action television shows, so this is clearly misused. Fanfic/ is for fan works in written form, so it wouldn't fit. AudioPlay/ is the best fit at first glance.

The forum for questions about namespaces is this one.
bwburke94
01:00:36 PM 30th Jul 2015
Alright then, moved and migrated.

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KarjamP
Medium: Videogame
09:53:06 AM 30th Jul 2015
Question: Is it alright to have a character page explaining the 18 different types of Pokémon in spite of the types technically not being their own characters? Because such a page exist: Characters.Pokemon Types
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Fighteer
08:50:12 AM 28th Jul 2015
Despite the fact that this is not how Characters pages are supposed to work, people continue to add them, under the apparent assumption that if they try it enough, we'll be unable to muster the will to eliminate it.
Khantalas
11:07:58 AM 28th Jul 2015
Genuinely curious here: do we have a list for when character pages are appropriate and how they should be handled? Because in general, which work pages have them and in what form seems to be rather scattershot and haphazard.
jamespolk
11:11:09 AM 28th Jul 2015
I've never understood the point of Character pages at all. A work page should be a list of tropes in a work, period. Segregating several of those tropes in a different, separate page, has always struck me as a bad idea.
Candi
11:16:24 AM 28th Jul 2015
Page size. The pages get too big, they break.

Splitting of the tropes specific to characters is one way to divide them.

It also helps differentiate between tropes specific to a character, and ones in the work as a whole.

Also, someone can peruse the main page about the work in general with minimal spoilers, while the Character pages can have spoilers off and a big SPOILERS AHEAD warning to prevent them from being turned into Swiss cheese.
Fighteer
11:32:49 AM 28th Jul 2015
They are an organizational structure, but they are a nightmare to maintain. Hopefully our redesign will help solve the problem; in the meantime, though, they've been spreading to other concepts like races, character classes, and so forth. I don't think this is reasonable.
jamespolk
11:38:23 AM 28th Jul 2015
^Which is another problem. Break work pages into smaller pages if you must. Ideally, one wouldn't have to sift through seven pages to find all the tropes in Game of Thrones, but at least they're all there on their pages in alphabetical order. You don't have to go hunting through the Cersei page and the Arya page and every other damn character page in order to find them all.
Khantalas
12:08:17 PM 28th Jul 2015
Single characters aren't supposed to have pages, though. Even then, we have given most groups their own pages in Game of Thrones.

I can understand the value of character pages, because sometimes you just want to learn more about one character (like I did with Naoto Shirogane a couple years back) without wanting to get lost in the details of a series. But their implementation is disastrous at best.
Karxrida
12:08:23 PM 28th Jul 2015
I personally think it should be allowed for stuff like character classes and races, especially in games were the entire party is customizable (most tabletop roleplaying games, several Final Fantasy games like III and X-2, etc.). Those tend to have tropes associated with them regardless of who the character is, especially if the character can switch between classes like in the Final Fantasy games.
nrjxll
09:15:13 PM 28th Jul 2015
I tend to agree. The fact that people continue to keep making these non-character character pages suggests that they fill a perceived need. Given that I'm not sure what harm the pages really do - at least beyond that arguably done by character pages in general - I'm inclined to think that it would make more sense to allow them in some cases then to try to convince people that they're unnecessary.
KarjamP
04:08:22 AM 29th Jul 2015
edited by KarjamP
However, that's like adapting to to the problem instead of outright fixing it, something the staff here generally doesn't want. Heck, they even removed a line from Genre Savvy due to said line actually masking the massive Trope Decay it underwent instead of actually fixing the problem.

I think a better solution is to figure out how to improve the system so that fellow tropers don't misuse parts of the site, even if it means changing a few things (such as, for example, the rules regarding character pages).
nrjxll
05:29:48 PM 29th Jul 2015
I think there's a difference, though. Tropes, in theory, aren't defined by this site - they're preexisting fictional concepts that we catalog. So giving with cases of Trope Decay is not a solution, because there's actually an preexisting concept that is being abused. But the rule that only characters can have page entries separate from the main work page is an organizational principle we've decided on, so if people keep wanting to create these pages, I don't see why the rule can't be revised.
KarjamP
06:42:31 AM 30th Jul 2015
And make the name of the "Characters" namespace an Artifact Title?

Not that I'm against your suggestion. It's just that I'd prefer to at least have it keep some resemblance to its original purpose, if possible.
Fighteer
07:06:21 AM 30th Jul 2015
edited by Fighteer
Part of the 2.0 overhaul will include a rethink of how we structure our data. In the current brainstorming, examples will not merely be associated with a trope/work pair, but can also contain 'character' tags. Thus, the system can automatically generate a landing page for all tropes associated with any particular character, and the idea of a separate "characters" subpage will become obsolete.

Elaborating on this, we envision the ability to construct a hierarchical structure for various elements within a work. Examples might be Franchise->Work->Season->Episode, or Heroes->Cabal Of Good->Joe Messiah, or Races->Dwarves. Examples could be linked/tagged at the lowest level to which they apply and then roll up the hierarchy. (They could also roll over across hierarchies if "Joe Messiah" appears in more than one work.)

Rather than a static structure, then, a work article would be dynamically constructed based on whatever part of those hierarchies you wanted to view. If you want to see all the tropes associated with the Heroes faction, click it and voila, complete with drill-downs. If you want to see all the S6E2 tropes for Sally, voila. Any component in the hierarchy could be fleshed out with page elements, such as description, caption, image, and so on, and those would be used if present.

In this case, it is reasonable to assume that structures like "playable race", "faction", "character archetype", and so on, might also be used — the only requirement will be that editors go to the trouble to create the hierarchies and tag examples with where they apply. The sky would be the limit.

KyleJacobs
09:53:06 AM 30th Jul 2015
If that turns out to be feasible, that would be really cool.

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dsneybuf
Medium:
07:33:05 AM 30th Jul 2015
edited by dsneybuf
Does Creator.Twentieth Century Fox still need the paragraph about how much Executive Meddling they performed during the Turn of the Millennium, or does it seem too dated and/or negative to keep?
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dsneybuf
07:15:16 AM 30th Jul 2015
Or, should some of the examples become replaced with more recent ones?
Fighteer
07:33:05 AM 30th Jul 2015
I'd rather dispense with the examples as complaining about RL people than try to maintain them in some kind of current state.

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jormis29
Medium:
10:32:21 PM 29th Jul 2015
From Rasco's edit in It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, it looks like he/she is editing with one of those word changing plugins ("Great Recession" to "Time of Shedding and Cold Rocks", which is a new one to me)

Maybe she/he should get a friendly reminder not to use those on here
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Candi
08:14:41 PM 29th Jul 2015
edited by Candi
Well, that's a new one?

Edit: PM'd them (politely) to turn it off or use a whitelist, and if they haven't been banned yet, to announce it here (so the mods can see).

I did explain why, with the whole text replacement issue. :p
Fighteer
08:38:33 PM 29th Jul 2015
Suspended.
Rotpar
10:32:21 PM 29th Jul 2015
Yeah, it's another dumb extension, this time dedicated to bitching about the millennial generation, replacing "millennial" to "snake people" and the above "Great Recession" to "Word Salad Whatever".

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Khantalas
Medium:
09:42:26 PM 29th Jul 2015
On Reed Richards Is Useless, the user swagnushammersmith added an entirely spoiler tagged example for the movie Sharknado 3. I removed the spoiler tags, on the grounds that such extensive spoiler tags generally make examples useless, and that suggested that he should rephrase the example so it can stand on its own without needing spoilers.

Now he just added the spoiler tags back, without making any other changes. I don't want to make any further changes myself to avoid an edit war, so here I am. What should be done, if anything?
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Karxrida
02:43:29 AM 27th Jul 2015
edited by Karxrida
Aren't spoiler tags okay on trope pages that aren't Spoilered Rotten?
Khantalas
02:48:27 AM 27th Jul 2015
They are OK, as long as the entire example isn't a wall of white, as per How to Write an Example. In that case, they should probably be rewritten or removed.

The important thing is to make sure the example is not in spoiler tags. There might be small details connected to the example, such as the real identity of a character, that are in spoiler tags, but a reader should be able to tell which work an example it is from, and how it's an example.
Fighteer
06:38:49 AM 27th Jul 2015
I'm suspending that user for a chat, partly because of the edit war, but also because of the sheer ridiculousness of putting spoiler tags on anything in Sharknado 3.
Candi
06:42:07 AM 27th Jul 2015
Rule of thumb is that if the person has to highlight the spoilers in order for the example to make sense, there's too many spoiler tags, since having to highlight the example defeats the point of hiding stuff.
sgamer82
10:13:59 PM 27th Jul 2015
Re-did the spoiler tags a bit, mostly because I was also editing it to add a link to the actual trope page. Admittedly, this post caught my attention because I'm awaiting the upcoming Sharknado 3 episode of How Did This Get Made
crazysamaritan
05:38:41 PM 29th Jul 2015
An example may be all white, from the last time we had thus discussion with the speedy janitor.
sgamer82
05:47:31 PM 29th Jul 2015
I thought walls o' white were generally discouraged.
Candi
06:21:59 PM 29th Jul 2015
Fast Eddie was okay with all-white entries. A lot of other people weren't.

And it really defeats the point to have the example all white.

Since we have new admins, it might be advisable to have a forum thread to revisit the subject, if there's a consensus and mod approval to do so.
jamespolk
06:55:49 PM 29th Jul 2015
^Spoiler tags defeat the point of listing examples, period.
RoseAndHeather
07:42:45 PM 29th Jul 2015
Yes, because obviously having no content at all is preferable to having content that is only visible if you click on it.

Jeez.

All-white entries annoy me, sure, but saying that they defeat the point of listing examples at all is going way too far.
Karxrida
07:44:32 PM 29th Jul 2015
I personally think Swiss cheese entries are worse because they look fractured. At least all-white doesn't give you random words and can be ignored easily.
sgamer82
08:05:47 PM 29th Jul 2015
edited by sgamer82
Yes, because obviously having no content at all is preferable to having content that is only visible if you click on it.

Honestly, I think that is to some degree the logic. If an entry is all-white then it may as well not be there at all since you need to have spoilers off or highlight or such to even see it. Just the fact that the series has an entry in the first place should allow to at least leave the title in spoiled.

I do prefer the "fractured" method, though I try to make an effort to make any such entries I write readable even if you don't unspoil
Candi
08:13:33 PM 29th Jul 2015
Work titles are never to be spoiled. The mods have declared that many a time in Edit banned /suspended and elsewhere.

When I added examples with spoiler tags (many moons ago now), I tried to make it so the entry made sense with or without the spoilered part. The spoilered part was usually the kind of detail you get when viewing the work or such -necessary to understand the example in full, but the kind of stuff a lot of people would realllllly rather not know unless they decided to pursue the work themselves, or chose to find out by viewing. The hardest thing was keeping to 'concise', in or out of spoilers. (Some people would never guess how wordy I can be. :P )

But it certainly seems revisiting the topic of all-white entries in a thread in the appropriate forum might be worth the time.
Karxrida
08:32:53 PM 29th Jul 2015
I didn't mean to insinuate that work/trope titles should be hidden, I know that's a big no-no.
Candi
09:42:26 PM 29th Jul 2015
Ah, okies. :)

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ChaoticQueen
Medium: Videogame
09:39:53 PM 29th Jul 2015
Edit War in Five Nights at Freddy's 4 again... Tuaam keeps changing the quote to accusations of Scott milking the franchise.
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Candi
06:20:25 PM 29th Jul 2015
That's the page caption, and boy that's rude.

Also, the pothole needs to be removed from the page quote. Once the edit war's resolved so as not to clutter up the history.
Fighteer
08:39:25 PM 29th Jul 2015
Suspended.
Candi
09:39:53 PM 29th Jul 2015
edited by Candi
Pothole removed. Someone else fixed the caption.

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Adept
Medium:
08:31:07 PM 29th Jul 2015
Does Curtains Match the Window apply to common hair/eye colours, or is it limited to unusual ones? Because in settings like Asia, where most people have brown/black hair and eyes, this hardly seems worth mentioning.
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KarjamP
05:31:09 AM 29th Jul 2015
edited by KarjamP
It's called a "trope" for a reason.

Curtains Match the Window has more to do with their eye color and hair making them standout as "weird" or "different" compared to the rest of the cast than their eyes and hair having the same color. If their eyes and hair doesn't do that, then it's not this trope regardless of them being the same color. It only seems like it is due to the massive amount of misuse appearance tropes tend to attract.
Khantalas
06:30:04 AM 29th Jul 2015
edited by Khantalas
EDIT: The following post sounded a bit more condescending than I originally intended. I apologize for that.

First, you should read People Sit on Chairs. This helps explain what are tropes and what are mere occurrences.

Second, even if something is a trope, it doesn't mean that the situation coming up in a work makes it an example of that trope. Whenever something similar comes up in a work, the questions you have to ask are "why did this happen" and "why did the creator of this work do it this way". If there is no reason behind it, and it's not a decision by the work's creator, even a subconscious one, it's just a coincidence.

In this case, though, Curtains Match the Window or similar tropes can still work with common hair colors, as long as there is a decision and reason. For example, In a work with technicolor eyes and unusual hues of hair, the protagonist has brown hair and brown eyes, because those mark him as "normal" or "unremarkable" compared to the massive variety the other characters might possess. In this case, having those colors would be a trope (not necessarily Curtains Match the Window). However, when he finds himself with an Opposite-Sex Clone, the same explanation doesn't apply to her, and the eye and hair color are merely occurrences without meaning or purpose.
sgamer82
08:39:55 AM 29th Jul 2015
Unless the matching hair and eyes color are what help identify her as a clone.
Fighteer
08:42:04 AM 29th Jul 2015
I believe there's a separate trope for when a clone has stigma that identify it as such.
sgamer82
09:12:01 AM 29th Jul 2015
I was thinking more in terms of the clone having same curtains and window s the original
Khantalas
09:41:21 AM 29th Jul 2015
Wouldn't that already be covered by the "clone" part, unless the art style is minimalist to the point of the only distinctions between characters being hair and eye colors?
sgamer82
11:31:50 AM 29th Jul 2015
The trope could be used to identify a clone if, say, you didn't know one was out there or, in the specific case of Opposite-Sex Clone, identify the clone since she wouldn't necessarily be identical to the original otherwise.
Fighteer
12:38:34 PM 29th Jul 2015
A clone looking similar to the original creature is a default assumption. It is not a trope.
sgamer82
01:28:47 PM 29th Jul 2015
edited by sgamer82
I'm not sure if I didn't explain it right or the idea's not getting across as I intend, so here's one last shot and I'm gonna drop it. Especially since, come to think of it, it isn't really relevant to the original query.

Scenario: There's an Opposite-Sex Clone out there, we don't know what she (assuming the original is male) looks like. In this scenario, Curtains Match the Window could be used as a way to spot the double if the original also had an unusual color.

That's all I was going for.
Adept
08:31:07 PM 29th Jul 2015
Not sure how this suddenly became a discussion about clones. I was just making sure I won't be making unwarranted deletions of such entries when cleaning up Character pages that has a Slice of Life setting that almost every character is said to have Curtains Match the Window.

Thanks anyway.

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