• 0 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 7:07PM
    Film
    On the YMMV page for the 2017 version of Beauty and the Beast, I noticed that there are tropers who keep adding and deleting Designated Villain for Gaston. Reply
  • 2 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 7:07PM
    Literature
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 07:38:35 PM
    Hello!

    My index "China Fiction" has been removed. The reason given is: little content in the wrong namespace.

    I aim to recreate it because I want to catalog the various fiction written in English about China and have an index that reflects this. Could someone give me some guidance on the proper to way to go about this? Should it be under Literature or Main?

    Thank you for your help. Reply

      Could you please WikiWord the page? It's easier than going through pages of the Recent Cuts list. What namespace was it in before?

      That said, generally new indexes should go through YKTTW.

      It looks like it was at Literature.China Fiction
  • 4 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 7:07AM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 06:09:34 PM
    I was working on collecting creator pages for Chinese Media and Taiwanese Media over the past week, and I had hit on a complete Mind Screw of nationalities which I have no idea how to deal with. Basically, Chinese creators had such a habit of getting out of China that it had gotten to a point where I feel like it is trying to kill me.

    Troublesome nationalities that bug me include:

    • Joan Chen, born in China, emigrated to America, and had done works in China. She was not on the page and I added her on the page, not sure if I should remove
    • Jet Li, born in China, naturalized citizen of Singapore, done works in China, on the page since long time ago
    • Sayori, born in China, living in Japan, likely have done doujin works in China before creating Neko Para in Japan, was on the list but removed by me due to struggling with nationality issues
    • Kris Wu, born in China, emigrated to Canada, came back to China for work, works in both Korea and China, was not on the list but added by me
    • Bruce Lee, born in America to parents from Hong Kong, raised in Hong Kong, done works in both Hong Kong and America, dual-nationality, not on the list

    Seeing that Kaiji Tang, who was born in China but emigrated to America, and primarily works in America is not on the list made me think that Sayori shouldn't be on since she is a Japanese citizen and primarily works in Japan, except that she was on the list (just removed by me). This proceeds to slowly grow on me until I realize just how big of a mess nationality/place of work distinction is.

    How exactly do we categorize creators in this case? Reply

      The answer here is real life nationality is really complicated and messy and there is not hard and fast guideline that will cover every case.

      A simple answer might be to add them to the lists of (a) where they were born, (b) where they were raised, (c) where they "did works," and (d) what they identify as. The different pages could have different sections for "Was Born Here but [some exception to them being on the list]" in theory, but I don't think it would work so just — y'know — keep 'em together like similar creator nationality pages.

      It sounds like a potential ROCEJ issue, so I wouldn't fight over taking someone off a list simply because "Yeah, he identifies as Chinese and was born there, but he did most of his work in and was raised in America so he shouldn't be on the Chinese creators list." My point being that it's a valid reason to be on the Chinese list if so-and-so identifies as Chinese or simply was born there.

      While there is no particular reason why a creator can't be on more than one list, this problem does highlight how difficult it can be to neatly classify people by nationality. Makes one wonder why we try. If we absolutely have to, then let's not make up standards. IMDB and similar sites list actors and (presumably) their nationalities; those are legitimate sources to inform our categorization. Better, it saves us from having to do the same work over again.

      Interesting points. Ignoring nationality issues, I have an inclusionist editing philosophy. Added a few creators on the page, left the rest alone, and I'm gonna take a break from it for now.
  • 4 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 4:04PM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 05:49:46 PM
    As far as I can tell the only edits by gomezpeter is a comment advertising a business here and a comment here Reply

      Uh, yeah. The discussion comment on Shout Out.Tabletop Games is a link to an Indian playing card site. That's spam.

      The other one is simply him saying that's a wonderful post. If I were the person he replied to, I'd be flattered.

      So, what do we do with Gomez Peter?

      Sounds to me like a spambot that occasionally makes posts to seem less like a spambot.

      Hmmm. Deleted the spam, will keep an eye on them.

  • 2 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 10:10AM
    Videogame
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 05:09:27 PM
    I was wondering if I could create a section for fanfic recommendations on the Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon page, how do I do that? Reply

      Go to any Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon page/subpage and replace the namespace with "Fanfic Recs"

      Courtesy link: FanficRecs.Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon.

      Just remember the rules we have for Fanfic Recommendations, and the page will be fine. In addition, please index it upon creation.

      [ETA] Just clicked the ink I made; the fanfic recs page for Super Mystery Dungeon was cut due to a lack of real content. Which brings in a new question: Were you the one who originally launched it?

      In this case, there is no need to separate SMD from the existing fanfic recs page for Pokémon Mystery Dungeon, so I went ahead and made it a redirect.
  • 4 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 04:46:33 PM
    The "Idol Singer" trope is not accurate. The description is... outdated, I guess? In any case, the sort of thing it describes is not what modern idol anime are (and we are talking about this as a trope). First of all, the whole "always female" thing - you might not have noticed (since fans outside of Japan tend to be incredibly dismissive of this sort of thing), but there's a huge male idol show trend recently. Marginal #4, Tsukiuta (which does not have a page), B Project, and many others, on top of the long-running Uta No Prince Sama. They sort of outnumber female idol series - actually, Idolm@ster is making an anime of it's "Side M" game soon. The stuff about "can't sing" "ruthlessly discarded" "broken birds"... that's just negative. Sure, that applies to many characters, but it's not a necessary aspect of idol stories. A lot of idol shows actually show the characters having a lot more creative control than they would in real life. This needs re-writing. Would that be okay? Reply

      No, changing the description without concensus is frowned upon, especially if it changes the core of the trope. Make a thread on the Trope Repair Shop if you think the trope description is fundamentally broken.

      If you want to discuss the trope and applications without recommending action, make a thread on Trope Talk. However, that forum is not for proto-trs attempts.

      If you're going to make huge changes to the description that alters the meaning, it might be better to start a thread in the forums to seek consensus. Maybe start one in Trope Talk, and then take it either to Trope Repair Shop or Short-Term Projects depending on how the discussion goes.

      The trope's discussion page could also work, but most people won't see it unless they're watching the page.

      I don't think the trope discussion page is the right place to build consensus for redefining the trope. TRS seems like a better place.

      Redefining tropes is a trope repair shop function.

      1) Write a very compelling reason for the redefinition or the thread won't be unlocked.

      2) Be prepared to do/help with wick cleanup.

      3) If TRS is too crowded to open the thread, you can speed it up by helping with the grunt work of wick cleanup of the results of other threads.
  • 1 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 2:02PM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 04:28:18 PM
    Would the Air Conditioner from The Brave Little Toaster also count as a Knight of Cerebus since the film's true creepy nature got started up when it showed up? Reply
  • 2 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 12:12PM
    Literature
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 04:01:12 PM
    I'd like to create a new page for a series of books called the "Earthborn Trilogy", but Literature already has a much more notable "Earthborn" book which redirects to another series. What would be the best name to name it? Is "Earthborn (Series)" an acceptable name for the literary work? Reply

      Since a quick google search says the trilogy is officially called The Earthborn Trilogy, Literature.The Earthborn Trilogy is your best bet, I think. Note the The, which seems to be part of the official title. You could then also mention the other Earthborn book at the end of the work description, to avoid confusion.

      Thanks Derkhan, your advice is much appreciated!
  • 3 Mar 22nd, 2017 at 6:06PM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 02:02:38 PM
    The meaning of this trope is "one sibling is evil and the other is good", right? Or was it originally intended to be "the evil sibling kills the good sibling"? Because I'm seeing more of the former than the latter on the page. Reply

      It's when siblings are enemies instead of just rivals., so the former, though I don't think it's necessarily good vs evil.

      Examples fitting your latter definition would go under Sibling Murder.

      The playing with page talk about sibling murder however, and the laconic is vague about what "deadly" means.

      "Deadly" just means that their interactions are more violent than they would be in a regular Sibling Rivalry.

      As for the Playing With page, it looks like the person who wrote that misunderstood the trope. That page for created in 2015, while the trope's had the same meaning it does now since it was created in 2007.
  • 3 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 10:10AM
    Videogame
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 10:57:38 AM
    I recently made a page for the game "16 Ways to Kill a Vampire at McDonald's."

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/SixteenWaysToKillAVampireAtMcdonalds

    I understand the url needs to start with text, but I would like the in-page links to the game to start with 16, since that's the actual name of the game. I know this is possible, since I see that 80 Days did it:

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/EightyDays

    How do I set that up? Thank you. Reply

      What you want to do is make a custom title for the page, the instructions for which you can find here.

      Thank you very much!

      No problem.

      That said, I just checked the page and there's two little problems with it- work pages need at least three tropes to not be considered stubs, so you'll want to add at least one more to the page. It also needs to be indexed- here's the guide for how to do that (the Web Games index seems like an appropriate place to put 16 Ways).

      Happy troping!
  • 6 Mar 18th, 2017 at 8:08AM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 09:10:13 AM
    So, Walpurgisnacht has been cut, and I suggested that they'd transplant the edits to the draft. Yet, I have two problems:

    1) How does one transplant the edits from the cut page? 2) How does one restore the nuked draft after it had been prematurely launched?

    It's been said that Walpurgisnacht would be considered as a Useful Note. Reply

      If you want to make that a Useful Note page:

      Go to that http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=ga00w3fjbnkfjxtopkdlft96 page and click the Pencil-on-a-Notepad-Icon (it appears on the right of the red "Nuked" button, just above the "Walpurgisnacht" title. It is the 2nd from left of the icons on that line and you should see "Edit" appear if you hover your cursor above it).

      Put your cursor in the box with the main text and copy all text with Ctr-A Ctr-C.

      Put http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/WalpurgisNacht in your browser's address bar, hit Enter and then click "Edit Page".

      Paste the text with Ctr-V, then double-check if some of it shouldn't be deleted or re-written, and save it.

      Helpful, but I'm also talking about restoring the TLP.

      Create the draft in TLP and follow the copy and paste instructions. Or copy, create the draft, and paste.

      Edit: yes, autocorrect, I wanted that word.

      Bump.

      Didn't Candi answer your question?

      I already did that.

      I was also asking on what will happen to the original draft that was nuked because I requested to cut and unlaunch the page that was launched prematurely by Bouken Dutch, and is there any way to copy the edit history of the page before ot was cut?
  • 1 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 7:07AM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 07:52:03 AM
    I think Super Sonic Heroes is running a hot-to-shot plugin, judging by his edit on Characters.Dragon Ball Z Abridged Others. Reply

      It doesn't appear to be a plug-in, since the word "hot" occurs twice in that sentence, (..."their hot air balloon was hot by..." and only the first one was changed. If the second one had been changed instead, the sentence makes perfect sense. Nor do any of their other recent edits show that change, so I'm going to go with "changed the wrong one"

      But thank you for mentioning it so we could check it out.
  • 4 Mar 21st, 2017 at 8:08PM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 07:50:44 AM
    Accent Tropes used to contain Useful Notes pages (e.g. Irish Accents), but were removed on 21st Dec '16 citing "Useful Notes aren't supposed to be listed as tropes.", with the notable exception of Japanese Dialects. Is there another place where they can be listed together? Reply

      Huh. Given that we require the listing of works on UN pages lately maybe it's time to revise that rule?

      Seems to me that listing the relevant useful notes pages as "Relevant Useful Notes pages" rather than interleaved with the tropes would solve the problem.

      Restored them in their own section, outside of the "indexing zone".

      The "Useful Notes aren't supposed to be listed as tropes" thing is about examples on work articles. Admittedly, indexing them on trope articles can be confusing, but there's no moratorium against doing so as long as they're identified as Useful Notes articles.
  • 5 Mar 21st, 2017 at 7:07PM
    Lastest Reply: 22nd Mar, 2017 08:33:42 PM
    I'm wondering if it's okay if I make a second account? Reply

      Don't use it for astro-turfing, sockpuppeting, or trolling, or to circumvent bans and suspensions, and you should be good.

      Wonder why you want an additional account.

      Usually, additional accounts are made for the following general (legit) reasons:
      • The user is participating in forum games or forum RP and wants a second identity for those games.
      • The user has an invalid handle and wants to change it.
      • The user is dissatisfied with associations made with their current handle and want to "reinvent" themselves, so to speak.

      What they said.

      Note that our concerns arise when:
      • There is an unresolved suspension on the first handle — this is called ban evasion and will get all accounts owned by that person permanently banned.
      • The additional handle(s) are made for the purpose of astroturfing a discussion: making it seem as if there are more people agreeing with (or voting on) something than there really are.
      • The additional handle(s) are used to vandalize articles or attack other tropers, shielding the main handle from repercussions (or so they think).
      • The additional handle(s) are used to disguise the fact that a person is pimping an article about a work that they are the author of.

      And so on.

  • 4 Mar 22nd, 2017 at 10:10AM
    Lastest Reply: 22nd Mar, 2017 07:52:10 PM
    Every single one of oshiridaisuki's edits have involved adding a gratuitous amount of image and gif links for fanservice-y tropes: just a few examples. Besides coming off as creepy and fetishistic, it's also violating Weblinks Are Not Examples. Should they get a tap on the shoulder? Reply

      Suspended. Go ahead and start cleaning up their mess, if you would. There's nothing there worth saving.

      'Kay, think I managed to get rid of all the links.

      I got rid of all the links in the character sheet to Chivalry of a Failed Knight as well.

      Thanks, both of you!

  • 7 Mar 22nd, 2017 at 11:11AM
    Western Animation
    Lastest Reply: 22nd Mar, 2017 06:47:59 PM
    I recently added this as an example:

    • In the Street Fighter cartoon, M. Bison's excuse to Chun-Li for killing her father is a callous example:
      Bison: Yes, yes, I killed your father. What is it with you women anyway? I killed my father too, and you don't hear me whining about it!

    However, it was deleted by another troper, the reason he gave, "What's insane about that? He's justified."

    Oo-kay, seeing as I'd rather not ask him why he assumes multiple murder is justified (especially when the killer is a cold-blooded sociopath like M. Bison) and the victim's daughter blaming the killer or is wrong, I'll just ask everyone's opinion here. Reply

      IMO, the logic seems consistent. "My father was killed by Bison and I don't complain about it. Your father was killed by Bison and you do complain about it. I don't understand why you would complain about it." I'm not very familiar with Street Fighter, but isn't Bison a sociopath who doesn't understand other people outside of the context of means to his ends? (The Sociopath is on his entry on the character page)

      Yeah, the chain of logic isn't flawed the way it needs to be for Insane Troll Logic. The premise is utterly wrong, but the logic is not.

      Uh, I'd think that if he's insane, and trolling the listener with an attempt at flawed logic, it fits, but I guess....

      For clarification, the page states "Remember that not all bad or faulty logic is Insane Troll Logic. ... usually either the presenter or the audience have no grasp of even the concept where the 'logic' should apply." So in the Bison example, because we can see the chain of logic, we can say it isn't Insane Troll Logic even if it is "crazy-sounding trolling logic."

      To elaborate what the previous tropers are saying, to be an example of Insane Troll Logic the logic of the argument must be insane (that is, not logic at all). In this case, the argument, or at least the conclusion, may seem insane, but the logic of the argument is not crazy enough. Now, if he'd said "My father's name was Roger, so I can't understand why you're complaining that I killed your father", that would be Insane Troll Logic.

      Lady Jane Grey: don't ever go just by the trope's name. most tropes have more complexity than we can fit into a short name.

      ITL would be an example I added a long time ago now, where G-Force: Guardians of Space's Dr. Brighthead tells the team that Galactor is stealing sugar because 'if your parents couldn't give you sugar, wouldn't you go to someone who could?" (Seriously.) NVM sugar is a very valuable resource.
  • 3 Mar 22nd, 2017 at 10:10AM
    Lastest Reply: 22nd Mar, 2017 02:38:45 PM
    The UNIX page had an "Image selected per Image Pickin' thread... Do not remove" warning. User hobbledehoy899 changed this image on March 1 without any discussion or going to the Image Picking thread.

    Isn't this vandalism? Reply

      Also, the former image was that of a Terminal which was fitting, and this one is just... the letters UNIX over some vague background. The user gave as reason that "the terminal doesn't count as UNIX because GNU isn't UNIX"... seems like Flame Bait to ignite Fandom Rivalry between fans of different flavours of UNIX.

      Suspended, reverted. It's the principle of the image that matters; only purists would DEMAND an authentic Sun Unix terminal screenshot, or even know the difference.

      That troper is right in one aspect: GNU is not Unix, and not even a flavour of Unix - Unix is a trademark and not a generic term, and GNU was developed independently to be similar to Unix, but not the same.

      But only a purist would object to the image. And changing it without consensus is definitely a no-no.
  • 5 Mar 20th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 22nd Mar, 2017 02:33:38 PM
    Ambaryerno and I have a couple of disagreements on the Logan page. Warning, spoilers.

    The first time we see Logan's actual clone in action, he's stopped by a gang of rednecks trying to get revenge on the actual Logan. Both villains, who are overseeing the clone, panic and attempt to withdraw Logan's clone before he can kill the rednecks, with the main bad guy trying to talk both the clone and the rednecks down. I think it's Even Evil Has Standards, he doesn't - this does come after said clone murders an entire family and it's established the bad guys have no qualms about killing and torturing people to keep quiet, but both villains become concerned about a bunch of rednecks who, predictably, die a horrible death when Logan's clone gets pushed too far. (As an aside, both villains are heavily implied to be giant-ass racists - one is a Corrupt Hick Good Ol' Boy who casually mistreated Mexican staff).

    The second is that he doesn't feel that the initial fight scene with X-23 is similarly choreographed and shot in the same manner as Hit-Girl's violent introduction in the film version of Kick-Ass, but that's obviously harder to prove when Logan's still in theatres.

    As a side note, can anyone confirm that one of the reasons for Charles' guilt is that he killed only "seven"? Some people heard 'several', some 'seven', and there's a scene where it's implied he killed a lot more than just 'seven'. Reply

      Having not seen the film myself, my question would be: do we know why the villains objected to that?

      They ran across Logan's clone in the process of kidnapping X-23, the female lead. Logan's clone was in the process of bringing her back when the rednecks crashed the party. They feared he'd go out of control, but after he kills the rednecks, the clone ALMOST goes back to normal, if Wolverine didn't get back up to piss him off even more.

      Ambaryerno says it was purely Pragmatic Villainy, but they were happy to let Logan's clone slaughter the family before. I think it can go under Pragmatic Villainy at the least.

      double post

      Even Evil Has Standards means they had a moral objection to letting death and murder happen. Is that true in this instance, especially given the second occurrence you mention?

      It sounds my description more like Pragmatic Villainy, which is about avoiding an evil deed because it would ultimately do more to harm your goals than help them.

      I think it falls under Pragmatic Villainy, as it was implied both sets of villains are on the same side, one inventing the mutant-killing crops and the other grows them. Since Rice is higher up, he can easily justify his creation slaughtering the hired muscle and the farmers.
  • 2 Mar 19th, 2017 at 7:07AM
    Lastest Reply: 22nd Mar, 2017 01:24:39 PM
    I'm adding a caption for my draft called "Baked Index", and I'm considering on making a crowner for any witty captions before I launch it. So, where in the forums do I put suggestions? Reply

      My suggestion. Add a header at the top of your draft using ! or !! and put "Needs a caption". That's a way to do an unofficial tag, signalling to people in TLP that you're looking for caption suggestions. You don't really need a crowner for a caption, but that's your call.

      I also think there's this thread for caption repair on the Image Pickin sub-fourm. But I don't think it's for caption suggestions.

      You can do caption suggestions there as well.
  • 3 Mar 21st, 2017 at 11:11PM
    Lastest Reply: 22nd Mar, 2017 07:59:02 AM
    Edit: The page was created and moved around and it confused me for some reason. First question: Should there even be a list for the laconic pages of Playing with a Trope. Second question: shouldn't the page go in Playing with a Trope/ (as a namespace) since we have other trope namespaces?

    To my knowledge, ginsengaddict unilaterally created PlayingWithATrope.Laconic List and LaconicList.Playing With A Trope and then put the former on the cutlist (which is how I noticed this issue). Reply

      They wrote a thread asking for feedback. Edit (Which, of course, was a plural title about one other page they made. )

      I have no idea why anyone would do that.

      [edit; i really need to read more before posting]

      Should the other page be cutlisted?
  • 8 Mar 20th, 2017 at 8:08AM
    Lastest Reply: 22nd Mar, 2017 06:03:16 AM
    I just re-edited the Yotsuba&! page back to what it was, since the previous edit made everything to paint a character as absolute evil by the user lilpest, who practically demonized a character for smoking (the edit under mine). I haven't notified the user, but that seemed like an iffy move, and I apologize if my revert is considered edit warring. Reply

      Oy. Banned.

      Looking back at their edits, everything they're doing is demonizing characters for smoking and making them bad, so I think some reverts might be needed as well for those pages.

      Okay, I edited back what I could, that user had flat-out deleted massive text pages just because a character smoked, so they acted like it was an awful series that shouldn't exit.

      The lilpest user probably came back because this new account RogerMack made the same edits, including the ones on the Yotsuba&! page. (I don't have the time to fix the edits at the moment, do forgive me.)

      ^I've reverted the edits on grounds of them being demonization.

      Better to wait and do a good edit then hurry and do a bad one. :p

      The mods will tap him again -hard-soon enough.

      Banned Roger Mack. Reverted the vandalism. Thank you, Nerf Guy for working on it as well!

      ^You're welcome :)
  • 1 Mar 22nd, 2017 at 4:04AM
    Lastest Reply: 22nd Mar, 2017 05:27:30 AM
    In the TLP proposal "The Logos and Fiction of Everyone's Dreams", the troper KquarGaming posted the following:

    "You're right namcokid47, I mean he is a plagiarist faggot anyways." Reply

      Banned that user, discarded and locked the TLP. Seems to be a bunch of drive-bys.
  • 3 Mar 21st, 2017 at 9:09PM
    Lastest Reply: 21st Mar, 2017 11:41:59 PM
    How do you delete a page? I just made a new trope page for a dinosaur media entry, but the authors of the work the page described felt it didn't deserve a page and I find myself inclined to agree with them. Reply

      What the creators feel is irrelevant. See The Fic May Be Yours, but the Trope Page Is Ours.

      What Theatre Maven said. But if you want to remove the page you should put it on the cutlist. You can't remove it yourself.

      ^ Also, don't blank the page (which would be trying to remove all the text yourself). That's something that won't help. Just use the cut list, which can be found in the Resources panel under Tools.
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