• 11 Feb 8th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 14th Feb, 2017 09:24:08 PM
    After an issue came up in Edit Banned, I did some research, and Spiritual Successor is wicked on a bunch of Creator articles, and not in reference to their works. For example, Bridget Hoffman lists her "counterparts" and states that "Erika Harlacher and Veronica Taylor are considered to be her Spiritual Successors in the non-union/anime dub side of things."

    This is gibberish. A person is not a spiritual successor of another person. The trope article says nothing about this, and as far as I can tell there's no "People" subpage of it. All of it needs to be removed.

    Edit: Ah, I knew I saw this earlier. Forum topic. And Projects thread. Reply

      Was this done by that troper that was JUST SUSPENDED. I guess he didnt learn his lesson.

      It doesn't seem to be specific to any given troper, no. There's a whole set of them who have been copying each others usages for a while.

      I am working on removing some of the stupid, but The Nohrian Dark Knight is re-adding "This creator is the counterpart of x". He did it to Laura Bailey

      Just to clarify, they can list counterparts if one actor consistently is the dub voice for a foreign actor, right? Like how Hiroya Ishimaru always plays Jackie Chan's characters in Japanese dubs.

      It's been suggested on the Forum thread that there's a missing trope for that. Someone should make that. I've yet to see a single "counterpart" entry where they actually say "X always dubs Y" even when the other creator is a different language.

      What about, say, Greg Baldwin who takes up pretty much every role originally played by Mako after the latter's death?

      "A Spiritual Successor is a type of sequel that is not part of the same world or story as its predecessor..."

      Unless you can convince me that some of these (voice) actors come from parallel universes, rather than our own, none of them are "in-spirit only" successors.

      Just so we're clear in case you're addressing me, i'm not trying to claim that Spiritual Successor applies to any of these.

      Rather, I'm trying to get feedback on other, more gray areas of things that show up on Creator pages.

      If we're going to be talking about parallel universes, let me get pannenkoek2012 on the line real quick.

      In all seriousness, I don't think that troping someone as a spiritual successor to another person based on the fact that they played a character that the other played is legal. I've seen shoehorned tropes that are less flimsy than that.

      Wouldn't "this actor always dubs that actor's lines" be Trivia?

      @Larkman, I don't think there's an issue. If someone literally picks up all of someone else's character, sure, write it in the description and say it. I think that's different than the bajillion entries who declare someone to be someone else's counterpart and give NO context on what that even means.
  • 16 Apr 1st, 2016 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 8th Apr, 2016 12:40:48 PM
    Is the current Trope Depiction (Garfield being eaten, with a bloody chest cavity and ribs visible) a weird April Fools joke? I think it's too gory (and mean-spirited, for that matter) to be put on the front page. Reply

      That series is called Twisted Tropes for a reason. The joke is that Garfield is being eaten by ALF, and one of ALF's defining character traits is that he eats cats. Gory, yes, but I don't see that it's particularly mean-spirited.

      This tends to further my discomfort with the whole "Community Showcase" sidebar, just saying.

      Still more than a little dark for the front page. I hate Garfield too, but seriously? Aren't we supposed to be a family friendly website?

      We have pages for Game of Thrones. "Family-friendly" and "G" aren't the same thing. The picture is gross, but well within some of the crap on movies rated PG-13, weirdly enough.

      It's more about the fact that it's on the front page. It's fine to have family-unfriendly images on the wiki, but you should encounter them on pages about family-unfriendly works and tropes, not the very first thing you see when you come to the site. It feels like it sends a bad message.

      I have to agree. The front of the website should be kept PG. And gore should be kept out of the site's pr areas (which includes the front page).

      PG or not, currently newcomers to the site are greeted by a rather drastic and tasteless comic. I think we should consider what kind of a first impression people will get.

      I gotta agree with this, it grossed me out.

      Since the community showcase got mentioned, I figured it'd be a small banner or something, so then I checked and... wow no. I spend 99% of my time reading and editing, so most of the time I forget the pr spaces even exist, but that cannot be okay to have as the first thing a visitor sees upon arriving at the wiki's front door as it were.


      Complaint has been reported, no reply so far.

      I gotta agree, I don't want any gory tasteless comic strip to be at the home page at all!

      The fact that it's still there makes me even more concerned about the whole community showcase thing. The complaint may have been reported, but doesn't TV Tropes itself have any power to get it off the front page?

      Tiny nitpick point: I don't think that the home page is the first thing every visitor sees. I originally came here through a link a friend posted in a chat, and didn't wander over to the home page until at least a month later.

      Is the TT thing a courtesy link or some kind of dedicated ad? That might affect bootability.

      I don't understand why it is still up. Administrators should have no trouble taking it down, and it is not like it is controversial. The admins took that trip to mars or something.

      ^It took me about a year to find the homepage.

      Well, it's been over a week and STILL no sign of the gory comic being taken off the homepage. I'm getting the feeling that I'm never visiting the TV Tropes home page again, as I'm now getting to the website via other links in bookmarks.

      Looks like we got rid of it. Closing.
  • 1 Jan 25th, 2017 at 4:04AM
    Lastest Reply: 25th Jan, 2017 04:30:53 PM
    gyrusa randomly deleted a character profile on the Halo UNSC Marines And ODST page and replaced it with seemingly something of his own creation. I already corrected the edit, but it's something to keep an eye on, I think. Reply
  • 5 Feb 12th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 14th Feb, 2017 02:17:09 PM
    At the risk of starting a shitstorm Politically Incorrect Hero seems to have some issues that merit discussing what qualifies as actually being politically incorrect.

    The page is frankly such a mess it calls Spock racist against humans and has a weird tract about how it's sexist for James Bond to be promiscuous.

    I'd almost be tempted to say it needs a TRS to draw some boundries on what constitutes being un-PC in the context of this trope. Reply

      I'd say it at least needs a scrubbing. Yow.

      Agreed.

      It is just such a mess because it looks like someone with a "everything is offensive" mentality got a hold of it. The real examples like blatant racism/homophobia or old hands putting down women who join the force are buried under a mess of extreme reaching and shoe-horning.

      The Star Trek section in particular is a NIGHTMARE of what looks like blatant misuse of the trope.

      James Bond's promiscuity typically is seen as sexist, even In-Universe. The typical reaction by women to James Bond is either "ugh, what a neanderthal" or "ugh, what a neanderthal....that I'm strangely compelled to".

      Out of universe, we have the infamous ass-slap where he dismissed a woman so that he could do "man talk", which is almost universally seen as pretty sexist nowadays.

      If it were up to me, the first thing I'd work out is the part of the description which says the trope is caused by Writer on Board, Values Dissonance, and Deliberate Values Dissonance. One of those tropes is YMMV, which ultimately opens the door for the rest of the trope to be, also.

      Sometimes I wonder whether the Political Correctness redirect is the actual problem child. That needs to be its own page, not jammed into the more specific Political Correctness Gone Bad trope.

      I'd say the James Bond entry needs re-written then because it's vague and specify ANY of that. It's just a paragraph of complaining he sleeps around without explaining where the problematic elements arise. Agreed with the part that mentioning YMMV tropes as examples could be making the trope read to broad to some people.

      ^You mean Political Correctness Gone Mad, your pothole is one word off.
  • 2 Dec 30th, 2016 at 4:04PM
    Lastest Reply: 31st Dec, 2016 03:25:30 AM
    Troper Sushi just consecutively launched 7 yk drafts. None of which were in a launch state, really. (one is about half a stub, another still has sponsor notes, one was a draft discarded years ago and revived by a random troper a few days ago, the rest are old yk's that should really reach consensus before launch and/or in the middle of discussion.) Reply

      Can they be unlaunched?

      Unlaunched all of them and banned Sushi from TLP.
  • 4 Feb 27th, 2017 at 12:12AM
    Lastest Reply: 27th Feb, 2017 02:00:27 PM
    I was actually reading the Zootopia pages and I know it's going to have some political slants with the subject matter, but I still wonder i the YMMV page isn't turning into a bit of a political soapbox for people that don't like the way it handled it's moral. There's even some anti-cop stuff using Police Brutality issues as an excuse to bring it up under Broken Base.

    Nothing nasty or no flamerwars, but it still feels like there's some slant against the movie (especially an Unfortunate Implications entry that cites some questionable sources, IMO) Reply

      That Broken Base entry should definitely go, since it's not really saying anything about the movie, it's just describing different political opinions people have in general. Using that page to describe that seems super weird, it'd be like me adding Broken Base to an abortion movie about people disagreeing about abortion.

      Also that Harsher in Hindsight entry is just incoherent.

      Yeah, i think Broken Base should definitely be cleaned up as a start because a lot of it vague claims of "it handling racism bad" that I feel come directly from the editor and some other fringe sources.

      The fact it's been an overwhelming critical success with only FIVE bad reviews on RT (and none of which I can remember mentioning that) seem to indicate this is a fringe opinion and no-where near a Broken Base.

      Also, yeah: that Harsher In Hin Dsight entry is just bad, especially when the dark joke mentioned was about people hating traffic cops for giving them tickets and nothing to do with racism or actually killing anyone.

      I changed some examples that used the word "racism" as a blanket term for "prejudice". Anyway, is it cool if the Harsher in Hindsight entry is cut and the Broken Base text wall if brought before the thread for Broken Base?

      I'd say so.

      This is a touchy enough issue I think it needs to be brought for discussion instead of one of us going all vigilante justice on the YMMV page.
  • 1 Feb 11th, 2016 at 2:02AM
    Lastest Reply: 11th Feb, 2016 05:00:40 AM
    It's weird and not exactly welcoming for those who are looking for a lost trope; Reply

      Been kinda wondering about that myself.
  • 0 May 21st, 2016 at 9:09PM
    It has just come to my attention that Komodin, longtime troper and fantastic P5 member, passed away in March of cancer.

    It has been posted about in the Absent People thread.

    Rest well, swift one. Reply
  • 9 Sep 15th, 2016 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 19th Sep, 2016 02:25:55 PM
    Link

    So, over on the Facebook page, there's a post for Unsettling Gender Reveal accompanied by a Cyanide & Happiness featuring just that. Now, (along with a lot of the rest of the trans population) it happens to be one of my least favourite tropes (for obvious reasons), but the article itself tackles the trope quite respectfully; mentioning the real life consequences and how it's loaded with Values Dissonance.

    Unfortunately, it seems that whoever's running the Facebook account's decided to respond to people discussing the very same Unfortunate Implications in the comments with a "Triggered" meme (one featuring a caricature of a TERF, no less). That's...really not the sort of thing I want to see directed at myself as a transwoman, or being used to represent me as a troper. Reply

      This is definitely not the first complaint I've heard leveled at the page, and if I recall correctly, despite being "official" it's not really super affiliated with the site or mods.

      Seeing as how this page is representing TV Tropes as a whole, the FB page needs to have a proper Facebook moderator (or a moderating staff) and a means to combat stuff like this from happening. Stuff like this reflects incredibly poorly on the site and community, and to a much wider audience as well.

      Moderators have no control on what happens there. I'll ask the admins.

      Have the admins said anything yet?

      Pulled, apparently.

      Pulled?

      Removed, taken down. Think about tossing something out with a string attached, then pulling it back by that string.

      When I click the link, the page seems to still be there (note- my avatar is an unfortunate coincidence).

      I know what the verb means, I meant; what's been pulled? The page's curator? The page itself? The complaint? Has someone successfully been seduced?
  • 16 Dec 31st, 2016 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 2nd Jan, 2017 08:40:50 AM
    Edit war on Rogue one. Black Dude Dies First was first added by Ohio9 on Dec 22, deleted on the 23rd by StFan, added again on the same day by Ohio9, deleted again on the 25th by moviepyr0, re-added on the same day by DRCEQ, re-deleted on the 30th by ChaoticNovelist, and finally added again today by Ohio9. Reply

      Even if It's decided not to fit Saw, the first main character to die is K2-SO, he's a Droid, making him a member of a minority servant class in the galactic community, and he's painted black, so I'd say the trope at least applies for him. Saw is about as important as that nameless informant that Cassian shoots, so Saw didn't die first.[[/spoiler

      ((Repeating my reply here. A mod may want to lock the other one.))

      K2SO seems like a massive shoehorn to me. Droids may be servants, but are they really portrayed as an oppressed minority in Star Wars? Are they subject to racism or speciesism? To take another prominent example from the same universe, C3PO is portrayed as servile, but much more as an English butler than a stereotypical African-American servant. And does the colour of the paint job really serve as a placeholder for human race?


      Suspended Ohio 9 for edit warring.

      ^^Are droids an oppressed minority?

      "We don't serve droids here."

      "The droids will have to wait outside."

      And there's that whole sequence in the first movie where C3-P0 and R2-D2 are stolen by the Jaws, and Rey Rescuing BB-8 from the scavenger who wanted him for scrap.


      Fuck spoiler tagging, apparently.

      Saw is not part of the main group and K2-SO is a robot, so the trope doesn't apply.

      Does not apply JUST because he's a robot? Tropes Are Flexible.

      Could we get some spoiler tags here?

      It's not like these threads aren't by default open when everyone is browsing through here...

      Added some spoiler tags.

      Listing a robot with black paint as an example of Black Dude Dies First strikes me as a horrendous shoehorn. And the treatment of droids in Star Wars isn't really relevant, since the trope is more about tokenism than anything else.

      Yes, even if we accept that droids in the Star Wars universe are an oppressed minority, which is sometimes treated as African-Americans too-often are or were treated in our world, I don't think Black Dude Dies First applies, because that trope is about real-world racism - that is, the person who dies first has to belong to a minority in the real world, not in the fictional universe. That's my real reason for calling it shoehorning (I just hadn't thought it through completely when posting above). Also, do we really have any evidence that the black paintjob of the droid is to be interpreted as analogous to skin colour in our world? I'm not convinced of that - if nothing else, why aren't all droids black in that case?

      Mentioning K2's paint gob was simply a humorous anecdote to cap off the example, like icing on a cake.

      If your going to be so hung upon limiting Black Dude Dies First to purely be about only those of African decent, then I have to say that's far to narrow to trope. I repeat, Tropes Are Flexible. Droids are an established minority in the Star Wars universe. I wouldn't axe an entry where the character to die was Latino instead of black, why would a Droid not apply?

      ^ Because he's not the only Token Minority in the group I guess? He's not even the only non-human in the group during the time of his death.

      The idea of that trope applying in a cast as diverse as that of Rogue One is pointless.

      ^^ That is by far a better reason than saying he's simply 'not of african decent.' I'll concede the debate. I'd also like to thank you. You are the one of the few people to have proven me wrong.

      ^I guess we can lock this now.

      Before it's locked: I'm not sure if sailing101 was referring to me when they wrote about being hung-up on limiting Black Dude Dies First to persons of African descent, but if that's so, it's a misunderstanding. I think the trope applies to all kinds of minorities, but they should be minorities in the Real World, not minorities that only exist in the work. To me, the essence of the trope is "movies are racist" (or tokenist, or whatever), not "movies depict racism". And moviemakers can't be racist towards a minority that doesn't exist in the real world.

      But that aside, the argument put forward by Adept and Fighteer really settles it. When all the main characters belong to one or more minorities, it doesn't make sense to apply the trope, because regardless of who dies first, it's some kind of "black dude".

      droid hate falls under Fantastic Racism (at this moment in time, although it may not in the future) and does not fit with Black Dude Dies First, which is about the Token Minority character being killed. Bury Your Gays is the trope for if it's a gay person dying before the end of the movie, so these tropes are specific to those groups.
  • 4 Jan 14th, 2017 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 14th Jan, 2017 09:16:44 PM
    Troper Scrambled_Minds just left a rather inappropriate comment on the discussion page for John W. Campbell.

    I can't say I don't have some sympathies for the comment. Campbell's legacy is, at the least, complicated. Still, I think this may be exceeding the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement, even if it is on a discussion page where no one ever goes. I thought the mods might want to take a look. Reply

      Um, yeah, that is completely in appropriate. And content-free.

      Also did the same sort of thing on the Dean Koontz discussion page

      Suspend him.

      'twas a ban evader. Bounced and reverted their nonsense.
  • 5 Feb 19th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 20th Feb, 2017 05:33:49 AM
    I get these ads at the bottom of pages on mobile. They end up taking a good amount of space, and when I try to hit the grey "x" to close them, I always get sent to the top of the page. Does anyone else have this issue, and is there anything I can do? Reply

      I'm getting it too.

      I've got this going on too... it's annoying as hell *headdesk*

      Same here.

      The ad report thread said it's being looked into.

      Yes, I get them too. Good to know someone is looking into it.
  • 6 Feb 27th, 2017 at 4:04PM
    Lastest Reply: 1st Mar, 2017 11:23:57 AM
    This has already been asked on the discussion page for the trope, and I've tried asking on the Regarding the Trivia namespace thread, both of which have gotten no responses. So I thought I'd ask here.

    Is there any reason why Adaptational Context Change is considered trivia, unlike the other Adaptation tropes. Reply

      Bump.

      Bump.

      I think this can be handled by the trivia thread. Sometimes, you just need to make another comment with more detail 'cause everyone is doing their thing.

      I don't think that's correct. Adaptation changes are tropes as they show up in the work when you compare the original with the adaptation. Trivia is for stuff wholly outside of the work, such as actor changes.

      ^The sponsor of the trope added it to the trivia list in 2014 despite nobody in the draft comments suggesting it be on there.

      I think that might be due to confusion. Of the "does alternate continuities/adaptations really count as a normal trope or are they too meta" sense.
  • 1 Mar 6th, 2017 at 11:11PM
    Lastest Reply: 7th Mar, 2017 07:14:59 AM
    The Swordsman has made several changes accusing fans of political correctness and wanting diversity for diversity's sake. Nothing banworthy yet but probably worth a warning. Reply

      Reverted and warned.
  • 15 Mar 13th, 2017 at 2:02PM
    Lastest Reply: 15th Mar, 2017 11:12:42 PM
    People are still adding political/drama posts onto YMMV.Jon Tron. While I don't agree with Jon's views, considering the recent stream debate we should probably add some message warning people against adding these types of examples on the page itself. Reply

      There's an example I would like to take off, but it would probably result in edit warring. It's the example about his sub-reddit turning against him. Two people already deleted and re-added elements of that example.

      I like GKG's edit reason. Apparently, saying "black people commit more crimes" is not "racist and offensive".

      This is one of the reasons I'm having trouble trusting tropers' editing judgment at the moment.

      As someone who has no interest in Jontron and is coming in with no knowledge of his works...

      We may need a machete and a few taps on the shoulder.

      Pull the examples to discussion and direct editors to it in the edit reason. Leave a commented out message where they were inserted, also pointing to discussion.

      Yes, they'll probably get shredded anyway, but maybe it'll put the brakes on the ping pong battle for a bit.

      Trust me, I've only watched him in passing and even I know this a clusterscrew.

      The only way to avoid flamebait here is going to be cleaning his pages and locking them for the time being until things cool down.

      I don't watch his videos but reading his, "Huuur Trump will make America white again, I hate other races trololololol" talk we do not want to invite others to the party, particularly anyone who might search the site for scandal trigger troll target #scandaltriggertrolltarget and think they could get some mileage from this.

      That example that I already mentioned, concerning "Destiny" and his fans turning against him, has been deleted and readded again since I last mentioned it.

      It's been reworded to say the same thing...not sure how that constitutes as far as edit warring goes but I'll see if stepping in helps.

      ...I'm beginning to agree with locking the page until the drama dies down.

      I'm also thinking the page should be locked. People with an agenda seem to be insisting the policy-breaking examples stay on the page — even after I linked to a post explicitly defining the policy.

      It's also moving over to YMMV.Game Grumps. Yesterday, somebody added the thing about the "Destiny" stream.

      The name sounds familiar...think they were adding political tropes before.

      Thirding the lock.

      I put a request in here. I don't know if that would be a redundancy or requirement.

      It's been locked.

      Requesting a thread lock since the aim of the thread (ROCEJ fun units removed and pages permalocked) has been achieved.
  • 0 Feb 8th, 2016 at 2:02PM
    I can't seem to get the recent changes to filter by type anymore. I set it to Headscratchers (have to scroll the list instead of just hitting "h" and having it jump there now) but the results don't filter. Also I'm not sure how to get the menus to shift back over to the left hand side where I had them before, where is the key for that? Reply
  • 0 Jul 20th, 2016 at 8:08AM
    Can someone take a look at the troper "Pikachu 4 Prezident, specifically based on comments he or she made here: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=YMMV.Ghostbusters2016#100196

    They're a bit TOO fanatical in their hate of Ghostbusters (2016) to not raise an eyebrow or two. Reply
  • 7 Oct 5th, 2016 at 7:07PM
    Lastest Reply: 26th Oct, 2016 05:56:00 AM
    troper OffTheDeepEnd 's edits in the character page of Mulan. He has changed many examples with proper context to badly written context ("Cool Old Lady : She's very", or "see Trope x",) or with wrong Example Indentation and natter. His edits were also very much based on his personal opinion (about Mushu "to the point that most of the time one will probably wonder if he is even necessary in the film"). Can someone revert his edits? Reply

      Yeah, a straight up revert of their edits is in order. Some of the edits are okay, but they're a lateral move at best. The rest are just bad.

      Suspended, reverted.

      Would other people mind looking through his history? I'm going through and it's awful. Riddled with typos, almost all no context, no idea how Example Indentation works, and more interested in posting audience reactions and Righting Great Wrongs than actually making good entries.

      Soooooooooo... with four edits to his name since being unbanned, I'm not seeing a whole lot of improvement.

      So yeah. That's every single page they've edited since their return.


      Re-suspended.

      Methinks his reinstatement was premature, he was directed to help with English, but his REAL editing issues were not addressed.

      Agreed, He got reinstated after addressing a problem, but honestly not the biggest problems he had. I don't exactly blame him for not knowing what he did wrong (well, except for the fact one of them was technically edit-warring).
  • 10 Oct 9th, 2016 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 9th Oct, 2016 07:45:12 PM
    User Snakey-Man has been consistently arguing on the scrappy clean up page about why he feels a charatcer from Tales of Zestiria is not a scrappy despite the fact that the forum has discussed for many pages about how she qualifies. In addition he keeps double posting, posting unrelated comments, and his grammar is fairly poor. I'm not sure if he has been spoken to before but it's getting frustration. Reply

      I'm actually pretty sure most of his unrelated comments are attempts to lay the ground for complaining about that character being listed.

      From what I've seen yes. However we've had several discussions about the ones he disagrees with and agreed on topics only for him to keep arguing after the fact. It's happening more or less every few pages.

      Courtesy link to the thread in question: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13598973560A64980100&page=34

      How exactly are we handling whether or not a character counts as a Scrappy? Seems like all someone has to do is claim "most fans hate this character". I think that's what Snakey-Man has been trying to say, although his grammar is pretty bad. I'd suggest sending him to the Getting Help with English thread.

      The issue is that we'ver already discussed the character with him before and he refuses to stop hounding us about it. He's not presenting evidence and he's being a pain more then a asset.

      I hollered the topic itself. But yeah, this is infuriating.

      Yeah, whether the thread could use clearer guidelines or not (personally I'd love to lose The Scrappy entirely) is beside the point in this case. This is textbook Single-Issue Wonk behavior.

      His behavior had been addressed and he does seem to have a fixation on this topic in particular. Personally I don't have an issue with having a fixation on a particular topic if it's good (man that bit in Game of Thrones was awesome, I need to add it, oh several already have, let's expand on it and cross wick it and put it up here and there) but even were it a positive thing he needs more guidance on how to do it than has been given.

      His behavior had hardly been addressed. We're clearly not getting through to him, which is why we're asking for Mod intervention now. The whole grammar thing isn't really an issue we're having. It's a Single-Issue Wonk, extremely pointless arguments, and constant multi-posting for no reason(he clearly knows how to edit his posts). He's acting inappropriately in the topic.

      The troper has been suspended.
  • 6 Nov 15th, 2016 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 15th Nov, 2016 11:25:24 PM
    The Page UsefulNotes.Donald Trump has 40 wicks and 7 inbounds, despite not existing. Would it be a good idea to redirect it to Creator.Donald Trump? Reply

      What about the other way around? Ronald Reagan is filed under Useful Notes, and he had an actual acting career before going into politics, unlike Trump's one reality show that pretty much revolved around his day job as a CEO anyway.

      I thought Creator.Ronald Reagan already existed, but if it doesn't then creating it seems a good idea.

      We should have _one_ page per public figure. Whether it's a Useful Notes or Creator article depends on whether they are better known as an author/actor/etc. or as a real person that appears in media.

      I'd say both Reagan and Trump are better known for politics, but what about the redirect idea?

      Yes, you'd want a redirect from the Creator page if they are known as one.

      I've been deliberately linking to the nonexistent Useful Notes page whenever possible, because the Trump page will be there by January 20 at the latest.

      If we move it now, it will help with the wick migration effort.
  • 6 Jan 25th, 2017 at 4:04PM
    Videogame
    Lastest Reply: 6th Feb, 2017 03:39:50 PM
    DarkChirano seems to have a hateboner for the recent entries of Paper Mario (that is to say, Sticker Star and Color Splash), often being quick to put in information that, while factual, attacks the game, or being biased on the YMMV pages. Although some of it is older, almost all of it is out against the games:

    • From early 2016, calling Sticker Star an Obvious Beta for interesting reasons:

      Obvious Beta: While the game doesn't suffer any intrinsic technical issues, several basic features such as a secondary stat/meter (which actually was in a beta) or a unique reward type for defeating enemies are not present. Action Command prompts are also missing in action, meaning the player won't know Things have action commands. The programming behind Kersti's advice is also incredibly simplistic, only giving advice by activated event flags, compared to the first two Paper Mario's guides giving advice by the room. This may have to do with the developers scrapping the game twice.

    • Attacking the current developers (who made the aforementioned games) as well as producer Kensuke Tanabe on YMMV.Paper Mario (bolded is what they added):

      Worse still, some interviews have stated that they've handed over the reigns of the "Mario RPG" completely to the Mario & Luigi series, so there are some serious concerns that, as long as the creative team of the eighth gen games stay in charge, the dork age will literally never end.

      As has been explained many times, the Toad species have become The Scrappy to the Paper Mario fanbase due to an overabundance of generic Toads with no unique names and no real differences beyond colours or certain outfits. In addition, Toads are almost the only NPCs in both Sticker Star and Color Splash, greatly contrasting with the sheer variety of NPCs that the previous games had. This isn't helped by producer Kensuke Tanabe thinking Toads are the only usable friendly species, nor the fact the other current producers and directors also believe this to be true.

    • Adding in more hate for Tanabe as well as the devs on YMMV.Paper Mario Color Splash (once again, bold is a new addition):

      An interview with Kensuke Tanabe revealed that Miyamoto was responsible for the lack of original characters, which was one of the major complaints about the game. However, this same interview also revealed Tanabe went to Miyamoto near-immediately after becoming producer for Color Splash, rather than Miyamoto coming to him. There's also the detail he never mentioned trying to negotiate the character restriction down, even if he couldn't outright say "No".

      Risa Tabata also got a fair bit of scorn, getting the same treatment as Miyamoto. This is mainly thanks to the infamous interview with GameXplain, where most answers were either really vague such as "I don’t know if I want to say a proper story–but we have a story" or saying that since there's Mario & Luigi, there's "no need for RPG elements", which caused a massive Internet Backdraft. But at the end of the day, she's simply an assistant producer and not the lead developer, and thus she doesn't deserve some of the hatred she got beyond that interview. It's also worth stating she's mentioned Tanabe's influence a few times.

      The game itself started development very shortly after the release of Sticker Star, so by the time fans began savaging the revamped gameplay style, Intelligent Systems had put too much work into Color Splash to scrap it and start over. Of course, that in turn leads to the question of post-release patches for mechanic tweaks, such as the ScrappyMechanics mentioned below.

    • Pointing out that almost every character introduced in Sticker Star "doesn't actually have a name-name" on Characters.Paper Mario and calling it ironic that there are only 5 Toads in Color Splash with real names.

    • As stated by lalalei2001, blaming Kensuke Tanabe and Rise Tabata for the whole "making Mario & Luigi the de-facto Mario RPG series" mess on YMMV.Mario And Luigi.

    • Continuing the hatred of Tanabe and claiming that he thinks Toads are the only friendly species from the main series on Critical Research Failure.

      * The reason why the 8th gen Paper Mario games only have Toads as a recurring friendly species is because producer Kensuke Tanabe thinks they're the only allies Mario has in the main series, and has encouraged his fellow staff to think likewise. Even a quick glance towards early gameplay of several main series games quickly demonstrate the utter falsehood of this belief, with species such as Piantas, Nokis, Jibberjays and Whittles, among many others.

    However, their non-Paper Mario related edits seem to have been made by a reasonable person, so I'm not sure what's up, which is why I brought it here. Reply

      The YMMV.Paper Mario Sticker Star page in general is a big mess, and the YMMV.Paper Mario Color Splash page used to (it might still be) be a mess too.

      The Paper Mario and Paper Mario: Sticker Star pages are big messes in general. Both pages are filled with complaining about Sticker Star, Color Splash, and the series' direction. The Obvious Beta example that was added is just shoehorning (Obvious Beta is about games that were released in a buggy, unfinished state, not poor game design). While I was also very disappointed by Sticker Star, I think the complaining on YMMV pages relating to it needs to be toned down.

      The YMMV.Mario And Luigi page has some of this too.

      "* Fandom Rivalry: For a long time, fans of both Mario & Luigi and Paper Mario were Friendly Fandoms, in no small part thanks to both series having several similarities while being different at the same time. That was until Nintendo note  revealed that they were planning to make Mario & Luigi the de-facto Mario RPG series, and Paper Mario would continue in Sticker Star's direction, saying that Paper Mario wouldn't need RPG elements since the former "already covered those". Needless to say, fans didn't take this lightly one bit, and now Paper Mario fans often argue that Mario & Luigi can't replace the former, among other things. This is a somewhat subdued example, as due to a significant overlap in both fandoms, not only do Paper Mario fans not actually dislike Mario & Luigi fans , but fans of Mario & Luigi also disagree with the idea of "already covering" the RPG audience. It doesn't help that each series are noticeably different in formula, making the statement about not having two Mario RPG series even more controversial."

      Bump.

      Has Dark Chirano been messaged regarding this? Checking over ATT's history, this is the second time Dark was brought up, but nobody indicated they have messaged that troper. Anyways regarding the Paper Mario series, both it and Nintendo at large are in a strange situation of having both fandumb and hatedumb to put it bluntly. This may need a TRS for cleaning and adding of editing notices about not to complain about creators and fandoms.

      I haven't messaged them and so far, it seems like nobody else has either.

      I should probably do that.
  • 5 Feb 9th, 2017 at 12:12PM
    Web Original
    Lastest Reply: 12th Feb, 2017 01:27:11 PM
    I noticed someone last December had added the YouTube Mother's Basement to the Bias Steamroller page and I'm confused because while him being on there isn't bad since it's just an opinion, the example is very biased towards saying he's being unreasonable on his dislike of SAO. I thought the page, since it wasn't a No Examples, Please needed a fair writing for the example? The other examples on the page are more neutral in how they discuss the example but the one for him is, no pun intended, biased. Reply

      Bump

      The example doesn't come off as bashing him to me. I've never watched his videos so I don't know how factually accurate it is. If he made three whole videos just to bash SAO that does suggest he's pretty open about his bias.

      According to the Bias Steamroller description, it's supposed to be "critic doesn't like [genre], therefore they don't like [work] for not other than that it is an example of [genre]." The Mother's Basement example is just one of many on that page that skip all that in favor of "critic doesn't like thing I like therefore they are teh bias." Honestly, looking over it, the whole page might be TRS-worthy; it's a real complaining magnet.

      I think TRS might be a better idea than just editing it. The other problem with the entry is that people do like his videos, his views and likes are a good indicator. The editor seems to be a Single-Issue Wonk, especially since he's not the first person to make videos discussing SAO.

      High Crate: a genre isn't the only thing that can cause a bias steamroller. If a critic is biased (either way, incidentally, positively as well as negatively counts) about something or someone (a genre, a director or author or performer or artist, a company, a plot, a style, whatever) and allows that bias to affect their reviews, it's a bias steamroller.

      The neutrality we're looking for on that page is a statement of fact about what the bias is, avoiding opinions about whether it's justified, correct or not.
  • 9 Feb 9th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Live Action TV
    Lastest Reply: 13th Feb, 2017 09:41:15 PM
    The YMMV.Seventh Heaven page is pretty heavily biased against the show, and there's natter too. (Or at least there was when edits brought it to my attention a few hours ago XD;) Reply

      Can you give some examples of entries that are biased or natter, to be more specific? (Full disclosure: I regularly contribute to that show's page too).

      " Acceptable Targets: Virtually anything or anyone that doesn't fit into the show's version of Christianity."

      " Critical Dissonance: Played with. While many Christian and family-oriented critics and viewers praised the show's family friendliness and somehow became the number-one show on the WB, there are many people who just can't understand what all the bother was about, often criticizing its acting, dialogue, writing, and overall plot arcs. "

      " Moral Event Horizon: Many fans thought Annie crossed it when she threw the twenty-something Matt and Lucy and the then underage Simon and Ruthie out of the house and forced them to live in the unfinished (read: no furniture or plumbing) garage apartment until they agreed with her opinion that Mary coming home was a good thing. Ironically, Mary eventually became The Scrappy and general "disappointment" of the Camden family in later seasons and Annie would pretty much cringe if you even mentioned her name. "

      " Pandering to the Base: What some assumed the show creators were doing — essentially crafting a show to appeal to a demographic that most other shows have nothing but venom for. Things like the above-mentioned point in Fridge Logic don't make much sense... unless they're less trying to reflect what they see as reality and instead prey on the fears of the religious (that "Christ has been taken out of Christmas"). Considering the sheer amount of Narm, you could almost interpret the show as a Stealth Parody or Take That! that kept itself low-key enough to be loved by the people it was actually mocking. It wouldn't be the first time a character meant to mock conservatives ended up being popular with them. See The Simpsons, Family Ties, and All in the Family. "

      " Snark Bait: Read the Television Without Pity recaps! Before the 'cappers ultimately began vomiting at the sight of the show, of course.

      The show could also be seen as Bile Fascination because of its sheer narmness. "

      " Values Dissonance: Out of universe example. For conservative Christian viewers whose morals match up with those of the Camdens, there's no difference, but for the casual viewer...oh, yeah. Some subjects, such as gun control, anti-smoking and drinking, and no sex before marriage, would turn off any viewer that wouldn't bat an eye at any of those topics. Yet, the show had a significant following that led the show to becoming the longest-running family drama in American television history. "

      " Vanilla Protagonist: The Camdens could technically fall into this category, for viewers who were more interested in characters that would evolve over a series instead of characters that remain virtually the same throughout the entire show. Let's see: Eric and Annie are the Good Parents, with Nice Guy tendencies (though Eric also falls under Overprotective Dad, Annie My Beloved Smother); Matt was the Generic Guy and the responsible eldest kid; Mary was the Academic Athlete who later became the Bratty Teenage Daughter; Lucy was the boy-crazy Clingy Jealous Girl at times; Simon also a Nice Guy who later succumbed to Wangst, and Ruthie was the sneak of the family. While the characters did mature (though their character traits weren't tweaked too much), and we are meant to believe that the Camdens are good-natured, intelligent people (over and over again), when you compare them to more complex characters of various other shows during the same time period (e.g. The Sopranos and Six Feet Under, which both also focused on families, just not in the family-friendly sort of way), the Camdens seem boring and nothing more from their simple characterizations. "

      There are additional violations in some of those examples.

      The Acceptable Targets examples is a ZCE.

      The Moral Event Horizon example violates Examples Are Not Arguable and has Word Cruft (namely: pretty much).

      The Pandering to the Base entry has Word Cruft (namely: essentially, "above" to reference earlier entries).

      The Snark Bait entry is a ZCE.

      The Vanilla Protagonist entry violates Examples Are Not Arguable, and there is parabombing.

      Looking at the page myself as someone that's never seen it, it honestly feels someone with a serious hateboner for religion has gotten a hold of the page and spewed their dislike of Christianity all over it.

      The Moral Event Horizon example is absolutely not biased, it objectively describes exactly what happened on the show.

      The rest are debatable yeah. Probably too long-worded.

      To those who say everything on that page is hateful: this show has always been, by Christians and non-Christians alike, a point of discussion of whether it was good in its portrayal of Christians / people with conservative values or not, and most consider it not to be (just take a look at the Imdb reviews...)

      EDIT: Taking a look at the Moral Event Horizon example again, I now see and agree there's natter there indeed ("Many fans thought").

      Values Dissonance doesn't quite line up with the trope page. The page is about how tropes don't age/travel well -not about how values themselves are perceived.

      That's not natter, that's Word Cruft. Also, the Moral Event Horizon has to be considered one In Universe. Its not there for people to complain.

      ^^I'd argue there's not much of a distinction. "Travel well" is equally applicable to different cultural groups within one nation, IMO.

      The way it's written doesn't reflect that, though. It's a general criticism of values and statement of value conflict with no reference to anything trope related.
  • 9 Mar 20th, 2017 at 5:05AM
    Lastest Reply: 20th Mar, 2017 07:49:55 PM
    Can someone give Water Blap a tap on the shoulder in the JonTron discussion page? For some reason, he's deliberately insulting and baiting a reaction from me.

    1. He ignored other tropers who've said that an example could be written without going against policy.
    2. He's arguing against me, specifically, by arguing in bad faith, and making accusations about my intentions.
    3. He's flat out insulting me, and deliberately interpretating everything I say in the worst light.
    4. When Larkmarn made the same suggestion I did, he flat out admits that there's nothing wrong with the suggestion, but that HE has a problem with any suggestions because of issued on Donald Trump and Sargon of Akkad pages (which has NOTHING to do with this).

    I don't want to take this petty argument any farther, but he's seriously under my skin. Reply

      Alright, here's what I can gather:

      KingZeal doesn't care if the example is on the page or not, but if it is, he wants it to be neutral.

      WaterBlap cites mods as why this political mess doesn't belong on the page.

      KingZeal states that, and I quote, "An example stating that his show lost a large chunk of subscribers due to the host's political views isn't troping the person directly."

      WaterBlap points out the Loophole Abuse pothole and links to the forum post that he quoted the aforementioned mod policy on Trump from.

      KingZeal states that it wasn't his idea he stated, that Water's second point doesn't address what he said, and that "We were asked to come here to discuss the matter, not have one person mini-mod it." (red flag)

      WaterBlap is confused as to how the idea that KingZeal said was not his idea, that the second point he made is about what King said about Audience Reaction tropes, that quoting a mod isn't minimodding, that the discussion is supposed to be about the example and not policy, that King's idea exploits a loophole, that he's just trying to avoid beating around the bush, and that people want to add the example back even though it really shouldn't go up.

      KingZeal refutes Water's last post: he doesn't care about the example being added or not so the idea isn't his? In addition, he states that if we're talking about an example that violates policy, policy can and will be brought up. After that, he clarifies that he was confused earlier about how Water drew the conclusion that he did.

      WaterBlap states that Sargon and JonTron are similar works: since Sargon isn't tropeable in this regard, neither is JonTron. Seems good, but then he gets a bit aggressive towards King: while he is being passive-aggressive though, he states true things (King potholed Loophole Abuse, minimodding apparently means "stating policy", and that King is playing the victim with his parting message, "At this point, what I'm more upset about is how you handled it...but I'll walk that off.") (red flag)

      tl;dr: Both of you are wrong.

      ^ Slight correction to Mario Man's post. I was saying the debate itself is similar to Sargon's YouTube channel. As in, they are political non-fiction works, the latter of which was determined in the Websites/ cleanup thread to be non-tropeable. I wasn't saying that Jon Tron's show is similar to Sargon's channel.

      ^^ I don't think that first numbered bullet is a fair point. I did respond to Larkman, ironballs16, and you. Only one person who I didn't directly respond to said to put it back (zmanwarrior). Your fourth point isn't based on my response to Larkman. I said that "I don't see how a third party, nonfiction debate is a part of his work." I never said that there was nothing wrong with the suggestion, and I didn't say that I had a personal problem with any of the suggestions.

      "King potholed Loophole Abuse, minimodding apparently means "stating policy", and that King is playing the victim with his parting message, "At this point, what I'm more upset about is how you handled it...but I'll walk that off.") (red flag)"

      Can you help me understand why those are "red flags"?

      I potholed Loophole Abuse because it seemed like a policy gray area, where no policy I've heard of technically applies to this example. It seems a couple of tropers seem to agree with me on that, so I'm not sure what's a "red flag".

      Likewise, what is this "playing the victim"? I stated an opinion: I'm disappointed with how Water Blap is handling this, and how he continues to handle it even in this thread. If I'm somehow wrong for stating this, please let me know. But I don't see how arguing he could handle this bettet is "playing a victim".

      Either way, though, I'm going to leave this alone.

      ^ Addressing your statements in order:

      The red flag was directed towards WaterBlap's passive-aggressive remarks in the March 19th message. That was pretty unclear on my end, sorry about that.

      The fact that you potholed Loophole Abuse at all makes your idea seem pretty suspect since you literally admit that you're using a loophole to keep this entry on the page.

      I state that you're playing the victim because despite the fact that you're part of the cause of this debate, you just up and walked away and posted here on ATT asking for someone to tap Water on the shoulder.

      Leaving it alone seems like a good option at this point.

      See, there's a misunderstanding. I potholed that Trope because, trying to be neutral about the issue, I was making it a clear that while it's technically a gray issue, there might be administrative policy that goes against the suggestion. If we have another trope for "rules gray area", I would have used THAT instead, but I don't know of one and now admit it was a mistake altogether.

      Second, you're getting the order of events wrong. I was perfectly willing to leave the matter settled where I said I'd walk it off, except not only did the debate continue, but Water Blap made his passive aggressive remarks AFTERWARDS. At which point I brought it here. I didn't run away from the debate—I just know continuing it further would have made it a personal feud.

      I beg your pardon but saying "I don't care if we do X" and then arguing to do X, even if it exploits a loophole in policy, does not come across as being neutral. It comes across as being deceptive. I'm willing to accept that you meant no harm in the pothole to Loophole Abuse, now that you've specified that you just meant "administrative gray area," but your other comments, as well as bringing the issue to ATT while simultaneously making demonstrably false claims in the ATT thread, are suspicious in my opinion.

      I don't see how the order of events could be taken out of order when there are time stamps. I would like to point out that neither of us are without fault here. Yes, I did make some passive aggressive comments on March 19th. This came after multiple comments trying to explain the same thing to someone acting suspiciously. That said, your comment about mini-modding was aggressive and — since you want to point out the order of events — happened well before any passive aggressive behavior on my part.

      You keep using the rhetoric of "not wanting to continue this," but you keep escalating the issue.

      Ah, quick question and I'll ask in discussion as well.

      Is there more to wanting the example up than just wanting JonTron's ass nailed to the wall? Suppose Peebee in Mass Effect: Andromeda made similar comments, would there be such desperation to portray her as a racist?

      Is there more to not wanting an example discussing his comments than trying to defend his honor? Suppose someone involved in scandalgate trigger troll target #scandalgatetriggertrolltarget made comments on sexism in video games and said there needs to be better portrayals of minorities. Would there be such a push against using the wrong trope?

      Jesus, Blap...I want to be done with this but you keep attacking my motives.

      Let me finish by saying this: just because I don't oppose your decision doesn't mean I agree with your logic or methods.

      That's seriously it. I'm done defending myself.

      Frankly, both of you are getting out of line, here and in the discussion page, and both exchanges are excellent examples of why ROCEJ exists in the first place. Stop sniping, now.

      As for the original question - a very carefully worded Internet Backdraft example would be the most lenient resolution to take. But if no such wording can be crafted, the page will survive without its inclusion.
  • 6 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 24th Mar, 2017 12:30:42 PM
    The "Idol Singer" trope is not accurate. The description is... outdated, I guess? In any case, the sort of thing it describes is not what modern idol anime are (and we are talking about this as a trope). First of all, the whole "always female" thing - you might not have noticed (since fans outside of Japan tend to be incredibly dismissive of this sort of thing), but there's a huge male idol show trend recently. Marginal #4, Tsukiuta (which does not have a page), B Project, and many others, on top of the long-running Uta No Prince Sama. They sort of outnumber female idol series - actually, Idolm@ster is making an anime of it's "Side M" game soon. The stuff about "can't sing" "ruthlessly discarded" "broken birds"... that's just negative. Sure, that applies to many characters, but it's not a necessary aspect of idol stories. A lot of idol shows actually show the characters having a lot more creative control than they would in real life. This needs re-writing. Would that be okay? Reply

      No, changing the description without concensus is frowned upon, especially if it changes the core of the trope. Make a thread on the Trope Repair Shop if you think the trope description is fundamentally broken.

      If you want to discuss the trope and applications without recommending action, make a thread on Trope Talk. However, that forum is not for proto-trs attempts.

      If you're going to make huge changes to the description that alters the meaning, it might be better to start a thread in the forums to seek consensus. Maybe start one in Trope Talk, and then take it either to Trope Repair Shop or Short-Term Projects depending on how the discussion goes.

      The trope's discussion page could also work, but most people won't see it unless they're watching the page.

      I don't think the trope discussion page is the right place to build consensus for redefining the trope. TRS seems like a better place.

      Redefining tropes is a trope repair shop function.

      1) Write a very compelling reason for the redefinition or the thread won't be unlocked.

      2) Be prepared to do/help with wick cleanup.

      3) If TRS is too crowded to open the thread, you can speed it up by helping with the grunt work of wick cleanup of the results of other threads.

      Alright. The "intro" thread (or something like that) seemed to have a huge list of things that were too minor to make a thread, and it said to post in some other thread, and I did, and... got ignored. So If I can make a thread for this... (if the thread gets closed for being too minor...)

      This has been opened in TRS -courtesy link. Requesting a threadlock over here.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?type=att&status=all&sort=pop