• 11 Feb 8th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 14th Feb, 2017 09:24:08 PM
    After an issue came up in Edit Banned, I did some research, and Spiritual Successor is wicked on a bunch of Creator articles, and not in reference to their works. For example, Bridget Hoffman lists her "counterparts" and states that "Erika Harlacher and Veronica Taylor are considered to be her Spiritual Successors in the non-union/anime dub side of things."

    This is gibberish. A person is not a spiritual successor of another person. The trope article says nothing about this, and as far as I can tell there's no "People" subpage of it. All of it needs to be removed.

    Edit: Ah, I knew I saw this earlier. Forum topic. And Projects thread. Reply

      Was this done by that troper that was JUST SUSPENDED. I guess he didnt learn his lesson.

      It doesn't seem to be specific to any given troper, no. There's a whole set of them who have been copying each others usages for a while.

      I am working on removing some of the stupid, but The Nohrian Dark Knight is re-adding "This creator is the counterpart of x". He did it to Laura Bailey

      Just to clarify, they can list counterparts if one actor consistently is the dub voice for a foreign actor, right? Like how Hiroya Ishimaru always plays Jackie Chan's characters in Japanese dubs.

      It's been suggested on the Forum thread that there's a missing trope for that. Someone should make that. I've yet to see a single "counterpart" entry where they actually say "X always dubs Y" even when the other creator is a different language.

      What about, say, Greg Baldwin who takes up pretty much every role originally played by Mako after the latter's death?

      "A Spiritual Successor is a type of sequel that is not part of the same world or story as its predecessor..."

      Unless you can convince me that some of these (voice) actors come from parallel universes, rather than our own, none of them are "in-spirit only" successors.

      Just so we're clear in case you're addressing me, i'm not trying to claim that Spiritual Successor applies to any of these.

      Rather, I'm trying to get feedback on other, more gray areas of things that show up on Creator pages.

      If we're going to be talking about parallel universes, let me get pannenkoek2012 on the line real quick.

      In all seriousness, I don't think that troping someone as a spiritual successor to another person based on the fact that they played a character that the other played is legal. I've seen shoehorned tropes that are less flimsy than that.

      Wouldn't "this actor always dubs that actor's lines" be Trivia?

      @Larkman, I don't think there's an issue. If someone literally picks up all of someone else's character, sure, write it in the description and say it. I think that's different than the bajillion entries who declare someone to be someone else's counterpart and give NO context on what that even means.
  • 7 Aug 11th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 12th Aug, 2017 05:16:55 PM
    I think Composer is Truly Deceptive ban evading again. He has similar typing patterns, at least. Reply


      Some technical data point in that direction, but I don't see what the "similar typing patterns" might be.

      I believe the only way to tell if they are the same person is to compare their forum posts since Composer stopped editing in 2014 and Truly Deceptive stopped in 2017.

      @Septimus He often uses bold text, and roleplays the same characters

      Maybe link to similar posts/roleplays they're in? That might help.

      Didn't the IP check come up a match? Geo-location?

      I think that it was inconclusive, if I'm interpreting what Septimus said correctly.
  • 16 Apr 1st, 2016 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 8th Apr, 2016 12:40:48 PM
    Is the current Trope Depiction (Garfield being eaten, with a bloody chest cavity and ribs visible) a weird April Fools joke? I think it's too gory (and mean-spirited, for that matter) to be put on the front page. Reply

      That series is called Twisted Tropes for a reason. The joke is that Garfield is being eaten by ALF, and one of ALF's defining character traits is that he eats cats. Gory, yes, but I don't see that it's particularly mean-spirited.

      This tends to further my discomfort with the whole "Community Showcase" sidebar, just saying.

      Still more than a little dark for the front page. I hate Garfield too, but seriously? Aren't we supposed to be a family friendly website?

      We have pages for Game of Thrones. "Family-friendly" and "G" aren't the same thing. The picture is gross, but well within some of the crap on movies rated PG-13, weirdly enough.

      It's more about the fact that it's on the front page. It's fine to have family-unfriendly images on the wiki, but you should encounter them on pages about family-unfriendly works and tropes, not the very first thing you see when you come to the site. It feels like it sends a bad message.

      I have to agree. The front of the website should be kept PG. And gore should be kept out of the site's pr areas (which includes the front page).

      PG or not, currently newcomers to the site are greeted by a rather drastic and tasteless comic. I think we should consider what kind of a first impression people will get.

      I gotta agree with this, it grossed me out.

      Since the community showcase got mentioned, I figured it'd be a small banner or something, so then I checked and... wow no. I spend 99% of my time reading and editing, so most of the time I forget the pr spaces even exist, but that cannot be okay to have as the first thing a visitor sees upon arriving at the wiki's front door as it were.

      Complaint has been reported, no reply so far.

      I gotta agree, I don't want any gory tasteless comic strip to be at the home page at all!

      The fact that it's still there makes me even more concerned about the whole community showcase thing. The complaint may have been reported, but doesn't TV Tropes itself have any power to get it off the front page?

      Tiny nitpick point: I don't think that the home page is the first thing every visitor sees. I originally came here through a link a friend posted in a chat, and didn't wander over to the home page until at least a month later.

      Is the TT thing a courtesy link or some kind of dedicated ad? That might affect bootability.

      I don't understand why it is still up. Administrators should have no trouble taking it down, and it is not like it is controversial. The admins took that trip to mars or something.

      ^It took me about a year to find the homepage.

      Well, it's been over a week and STILL no sign of the gory comic being taken off the homepage. I'm getting the feeling that I'm never visiting the TV Tropes home page again, as I'm now getting to the website via other links in bookmarks.

      Looks like we got rid of it. Closing.
  • 1 Jan 25th, 2017 at 4:04AM
    Lastest Reply: 25th Jan, 2017 04:30:53 PM
    gyrusa randomly deleted a character profile on the Halo UNSC Marines And ODST page and replaced it with seemingly something of his own creation. I already corrected the edit, but it's something to keep an eye on, I think. Reply
  • 1 Feb 11th, 2016 at 2:02AM
    Lastest Reply: 11th Feb, 2016 05:00:40 AM
    It's weird and not exactly welcoming for those who are looking for a lost trope; Reply

      Been kinda wondering about that myself.
  • 0 May 21st, 2016 at 9:09PM
    It has just come to my attention that Komodin, longtime troper and fantastic P5 member, passed away in March of cancer.

    It has been posted about in the Absent People thread.

    Rest well, swift one. Reply
  • 2 Dec 30th, 2016 at 4:04PM
    Lastest Reply: 31st Dec, 2016 03:25:30 AM
    Troper Sushi just consecutively launched 7 yk drafts. None of which were in a launch state, really. (one is about half a stub, another still has sponsor notes, one was a draft discarded years ago and revived by a random troper a few days ago, the rest are old yk's that should really reach consensus before launch and/or in the middle of discussion.) Reply

      Can they be unlaunched?

      Unlaunched all of them and banned Sushi from TLP.
  • 5 Feb 12th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 14th Feb, 2017 02:17:09 PM
    At the risk of starting a shitstorm Politically Incorrect Hero seems to have some issues that merit discussing what qualifies as actually being politically incorrect.

    The page is frankly such a mess it calls Spock racist against humans and has a weird tract about how it's sexist for James Bond to be promiscuous.

    I'd almost be tempted to say it needs a TRS to draw some boundries on what constitutes being un-PC in the context of this trope. Reply

      I'd say it at least needs a scrubbing. Yow.


      It is just such a mess because it looks like someone with a "everything is offensive" mentality got a hold of it. The real examples like blatant racism/homophobia or old hands putting down women who join the force are buried under a mess of extreme reaching and shoe-horning.

      The Star Trek section in particular is a NIGHTMARE of what looks like blatant misuse of the trope.

      James Bond's promiscuity typically is seen as sexist, even In-Universe. The typical reaction by women to James Bond is either "ugh, what a neanderthal" or "ugh, what a neanderthal....that I'm strangely compelled to".

      Out of universe, we have the infamous ass-slap where he dismissed a woman so that he could do "man talk", which is almost universally seen as pretty sexist nowadays.

      If it were up to me, the first thing I'd work out is the part of the description which says the trope is caused by Writer on Board, Values Dissonance, and Deliberate Values Dissonance. One of those tropes is YMMV, which ultimately opens the door for the rest of the trope to be, also.

      Sometimes I wonder whether the Political Correctness redirect is the actual problem child. That needs to be its own page, not jammed into the more specific Political Correctness Gone Bad trope.

      I'd say the James Bond entry needs re-written then because it's vague and specify ANY of that. It's just a paragraph of complaining he sleeps around without explaining where the problematic elements arise. Agreed with the part that mentioning YMMV tropes as examples could be making the trope read to broad to some people.

      ^You mean Political Correctness Gone Mad, your pothole is one word off.
  • 4 Feb 27th, 2017 at 12:12AM
    Lastest Reply: 27th Feb, 2017 02:00:27 PM
    I was actually reading the Zootopia pages and I know it's going to have some political slants with the subject matter, but I still wonder i the YMMV page isn't turning into a bit of a political soapbox for people that don't like the way it handled it's moral. There's even some anti-cop stuff using Police Brutality issues as an excuse to bring it up under Broken Base.

    Nothing nasty or no flamerwars, but it still feels like there's some slant against the movie (especially an Unfortunate Implications entry that cites some questionable sources, IMO) Reply

      That Broken Base entry should definitely go, since it's not really saying anything about the movie, it's just describing different political opinions people have in general. Using that page to describe that seems super weird, it'd be like me adding Broken Base to an abortion movie about people disagreeing about abortion.

      Also that Harsher in Hindsight entry is just incoherent.

      Yeah, i think Broken Base should definitely be cleaned up as a start because a lot of it vague claims of "it handling racism bad" that I feel come directly from the editor and some other fringe sources.

      The fact it's been an overwhelming critical success with only FIVE bad reviews on RT (and none of which I can remember mentioning that) seem to indicate this is a fringe opinion and no-where near a Broken Base.

      Also, yeah: that Harsher In Hin Dsight entry is just bad, especially when the dark joke mentioned was about people hating traffic cops for giving them tickets and nothing to do with racism or actually killing anyone.

      I changed some examples that used the word "racism" as a blanket term for "prejudice". Anyway, is it cool if the Harsher in Hindsight entry is cut and the Broken Base text wall if brought before the thread for Broken Base?

      I'd say so.

      This is a touchy enough issue I think it needs to be brought for discussion instead of one of us going all vigilante justice on the YMMV page.
  • 4 Apr 23rd, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 24th Apr, 2017 11:23:54 AM
    Courtesy Link: here

    There was a conversation / debate on the draft about the term "queer" and before Shimaspawn stepped in saying that it's a pre-existing term, King Zeal started to step over the line with the rhetorical / snide question "If the people self-identifying themselves as queer are wrong, and the people who lovingly accept them as queer are wrong, and the original dictionary term is vague, what authority are you deferring to define the term?" as though gay men (such as myself) cannot comprehend this term that describes gay people or that I contrast with the "people who lovingly accept them." In our history over on this ATT thread, we were told to stop sniping each other, and I would rather not get in trouble for responding to his comment. I didn't say anything until now because I hadn't seen the comment. I knew the discussion was getting heated and I stepped away and just had no motivation to look at the draft until now.

    His most recent comment, which posted today (well after Shimaspawn's stepping in), King Zeal continued the topic of what "queer" means, and I don't think he's letting it go.

    At the risk of being repetitive: I don't want to directly engage with this definition "debate" and I think a mod coming in to the draft to calm the waters could possibly help keep the discussion on track for the trope, rather than the definition of "queer." Reply

      To add, there's a lot of, um misunderstanding in that discussion from tropers who may not be so familiar with both the idea of queerbaiting and how to keep things subjective. King Zeal is one of the more offensive of posters.

      Just to put it out there, I myself identify as "queer" (without being willing to elaborate further) .

      My last comment was referring to the very problem the thread has of people saying "this isn't how I've seen 'queerbaiting' used/defined". It wasn't an argument. My point is that, no matter how WE define the term, if the definition differs from how various people define "queer" and "queerbaiting", the page will have constant struggles with people misusing it or Sink Holing it. The fact that so many people are commenting in the YKTTW thread to express that confusion is evidence of this.

      Mods have stepped in, as I read the comment thread. There's a very real risk of any article about queerbaiting, whether it's a trope or a Useful Notes page, doing more to attract people arguing about whether it applies to any given work than to help people understand the concept.

      A Useful Notes page is not intended to "define terms used in fandom", but is instead supposed to provide a reference for authors seeking to write accurately about a particular topic. We aren't always very good at keeping them to this rule, but it's not an excuse to create more bad ones.

      What useful information would this article provide to writers? How not to queerbait? I'm not really seeing it. We should already have UN articles about LGBTQ issues in general, so do we need a more specific one for this particular term? It just feels like a bad idea.

      Not a mod, but...the ROCEJ exists for a reason, eh?
  • 9 Apr 30th, 2017 at 1:01PM
    Lastest Reply: 1st May, 2017 08:11:17 PM

    Doctor Sleep keeps commenting out entries he disagrees with and leaving commented out notes why he thinks they don't fit. My issue is that's unorthodox and, well, his reasoning is really weak.

    I'm going to restore the examples and leave an edit reason saying "take it to discussion if you want to contest an example." Reply

      Are Dr Sleep and Doctor Sleep the same troper? Asking because Dr Sleep already brought various examples to the discussion page (in January-ish) for that YMMV article. If they are the same person, then ignorance isn't exactly an excuse... They've both been active within April, so it's probably two different people, but that'd be a funny coincidence, no?

      They both have edits going back as far as 2016, and both have edited pages common to DCEU, Marvel, and various animes.

      Going by the issues presented here, is it possible both are socks of a previously-banned user?

      [ETA] DoctorSleep's history, and DrSleep's history.

      I have been informed earlier that they're not the same guy.

      It is a... Really weird coincidence, given how often the two do collide.

      The fact that the usernames are very similar is suspicious. I'll do some IP tracing to make sure they aren't the same.

      Edit: Okay, both have IPs in entirely different areas, so odds are slim that they're the same. Has anyone messaged Doctor Sleep about this issue?

      I just did. In fact, I messaged both Dr. Sleeps to come here.

      Normally I prefer to edit everything in bulk, so it just seemed appropriate to add a comment at the end of every entry. If it's a conflict of interest, I'll stop.

      One method of adding an edit reason is to point to the discussion page (in the edit reason box) and then add your edit reason on the discussion page. If you think your edit reason is really long, you could try that. I've done that a few times, and it's led to an interesting discussion or two about the cut entries.

      Using the comment-out markup like that isn't kosher (as already said above), but it could also potentially lead to newer tropers following suit, which can become a much bigger problem in itself, I think.

      If you don't think an example fits, pull it to discussion with an edit reason pointing there. On the discussion page, explain why you don't think it fits.

      Don't comment out full examples and add notes as to why that don't fit. We don't do that here, and people are far more likely to see the discussion page. Plus it's easier to point to the discussion page from ATT or a work's dedicated thread.

      Just to reiterate, Doctor Sleep and I are not the same user, as our I Ps hopefully indicate. I understand that this is the mother of all coincidences, and it's boggling to me as well, but that's the plain and simple truth.
  • 4 Jul 6th, 2017 at 5:05AM
    Lastest Reply: 7th Jul, 2017 06:03:06 AM
    Sorry in advance for the wall of text.

    So DC Rebirth is a line of comics, many of which have their own pages, such as Batman (Rebirth), Detective Comics (Rebirth), Supergirl (Rebirth), etc. The series are actually just called Batman, Detective Comics and Supergirl, but the Rebirth identifies it as that specific series, since there have been a few series called Batman and Supergirl. Usually (here and on comic sites), the year the series began is used to tell them apart, e.g. Batgirl (2000), Batgirl (2011), Supergirl (2011), but whatever.

    But the problem is there actually are one-off comics called Batman: Rebirth and Supergirl: Rebirth — they actually started those series I mentioned. So it's not clear when Batman: Rebirth #1 refers to the one-shot or issue 1 of Batman (Rebirth). And since the Rebirth pages began, there have been numerous cases of people referring to Batman: Rebirth #4 and the like, which don't exist (hell, even keeping this naming scheme, it'd be Batman (Rebirth) #4). I even saw an entry about "Superwoman: Rebirth #1", when Superwoman didn't even get a Rebirth one-shot and is the first series to ever be called Superwoman. I can only assume the naming scheme between the various works is to blame. The only series seemingly exempt from these mistakes are Action Comics and Detective Comics which kept the numbering of the original series, since they're Long Runner|s.

    Further, I want to create a page for The Flash's Rebirth series (started in 2016)... but it already had a series called The Flash: Rebirth (from 2009) that I also want to make a page for. So it'd have to be called The Flash (Rebirth) (2016) or something, unless there's a way to make The Flash: Rebirth and The Flash (Rebirth) two separate pages without it leading to more confusion. I guess you could separate them via folders on the same page, but that's a bit of a wonky solution and doesn't allow for very good Cross Wicking. Plus, unlike Old Man Logan, the 'The Flash: Rebirth and The Flash (2016)'' are not that similar.

    The only justification I've seen for calling the series Supergirl (Rebirth) and the like is that they're unofficial nicknames. As someone who frequents a few comic sites, I have NEVER seen them used (I just searched Googled "Supergirl: Rebirth #2" with quotation marks and only got two pages of results). People generally just say Supergirl #4 and the context makes it clear that they're talking about he current series (the Rebirth one). As someone who created one of those pages (Justice League of America (Rebirth)), I was just following the lead of the other pages. Just quickly checking the first wave of series on DC Rebirth, it seems troper duranaparthur started the trend and everyone just followed suit.

    So basically I'd just like to get some thoughts on changing the different Rebirth Comic Book pages to Batman 2016, Detective Comics 2016, Supergirl 2016, etc.? It'd be more accurate, be in line with the naming scheme of previous series, be less confusing, and allow for some pages to exist without being confusing or inconsistent with the naming scheme of other pages.

    Sorry if this is possibly in the wrong place, but the discussion page for DC Rebirth is kinda dead. If there's a better place to put this where people will see it, please tell me and I'll put it there. Reply
  • 1 Aug 8th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 10th Aug, 2017 06:05:02 AM
    Originally, Funimation was named FUNimation Productions and later FUNimation Entertainment before it went under its current name, but lately, the company's stylization of the name has been changed from "FUNimation" to simply "Funimation", which started around 2014 (the current spelling is even seen on their official website). With that said, I have a question: Should we keep the wikiword display name as "FUNimation" or should we change it to "Funimation"? Reply

      I'd advise "Funimation", if only to help with markup.
  • 3 Aug 10th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 14th Aug, 2017 09:22:07 PM
    Courtesy links: tyrekecorrea, TLP draft titled "Queerbaiting", the crowner mentioned below

    Over on the Queerbaiting draft (link), tyrekecorrea has been arguing ad nauseam about Queerbaiting being a trope and a Useful Note, even though we already had this discussion in the TLP crash rescue thread. We tried having a crowner to agree on whether the draft should be a Useful Note or a Main/ page trope with the Useful Notes/ page being in the lead.

    Instead of letting the crowner decide, they appear to be insisting that (to paraphrase) "Because Bowdlerise is a trope page and an index, this page should also be a trope page and an index, regardless of what the crowner says." Not that all of the items in the crowner are particularly kosher (and outside opinion on that could also be helpful), but to keep insisting the same thing even with so many people disagreeing — especially when it's clearly a problem that people are trying to resolve and the insisted-upon option isn't helping — is unnecessary at best.

    As I said, it's gotten to the point of exhaustion (hence "ad nauseam"), and I think outside opinions are needed. I don't think there's anything more I could say to this troper that hasn't already been said. Reply
  • 9 Sep 15th, 2016 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 19th Sep, 2016 02:25:55 PM

    So, over on the Facebook page, there's a post for Unsettling Gender Reveal accompanied by a Cyanide & Happiness featuring just that. Now, (along with a lot of the rest of the trans population) it happens to be one of my least favourite tropes (for obvious reasons), but the article itself tackles the trope quite respectfully; mentioning the real life consequences and how it's loaded with Values Dissonance.

    Unfortunately, it seems that whoever's running the Facebook account's decided to respond to people discussing the very same Unfortunate Implications in the comments with a "Triggered" meme (one featuring a caricature of a TERF, no less). That's...really not the sort of thing I want to see directed at myself as a transwoman, or being used to represent me as a troper. Reply

      This is definitely not the first complaint I've heard leveled at the page, and if I recall correctly, despite being "official" it's not really super affiliated with the site or mods.

      Seeing as how this page is representing TV Tropes as a whole, the FB page needs to have a proper Facebook moderator (or a moderating staff) and a means to combat stuff like this from happening. Stuff like this reflects incredibly poorly on the site and community, and to a much wider audience as well.

      Moderators have no control on what happens there. I'll ask the admins.

      Have the admins said anything yet?

      Pulled, apparently.


      Removed, taken down. Think about tossing something out with a string attached, then pulling it back by that string.

      When I click the link, the page seems to still be there (note- my avatar is an unfortunate coincidence).

      I know what the verb means, I meant; what's been pulled? The page's curator? The page itself? The complaint? Has someone successfully been seduced?
  • 16 Dec 31st, 2016 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 2nd Jan, 2017 08:40:50 AM
    Edit war on Rogue one. Black Dude Dies First was first added by Ohio9 on Dec 22, deleted on the 23rd by StFan, added again on the same day by Ohio9, deleted again on the 25th by moviepyr0, re-added on the same day by DRCEQ, re-deleted on the 30th by ChaoticNovelist, and finally added again today by Ohio9. Reply

      Even if It's decided not to fit Saw, the first main character to die is K2-SO, he's a Droid, making him a member of a minority servant class in the galactic community, and he's painted black, so I'd say the trope at least applies for him. Saw is about as important as that nameless informant that Cassian shoots, so Saw didn't die first.[[/spoiler

      ((Repeating my reply here. A mod may want to lock the other one.))

      K2SO seems like a massive shoehorn to me. Droids may be servants, but are they really portrayed as an oppressed minority in Star Wars? Are they subject to racism or speciesism? To take another prominent example from the same universe, C3PO is portrayed as servile, but much more as an English butler than a stereotypical African-American servant. And does the colour of the paint job really serve as a placeholder for human race?

      Suspended Ohio 9 for edit warring.

      ^^Are droids an oppressed minority?

      "We don't serve droids here."

      "The droids will have to wait outside."

      And there's that whole sequence in the first movie where C3-P0 and R2-D2 are stolen by the Jaws, and Rey Rescuing BB-8 from the scavenger who wanted him for scrap.

      Fuck spoiler tagging, apparently.

      Saw is not part of the main group and K2-SO is a robot, so the trope doesn't apply.

      Does not apply JUST because he's a robot? Tropes Are Flexible.

      Could we get some spoiler tags here?

      It's not like these threads aren't by default open when everyone is browsing through here...

      Added some spoiler tags.

      Listing a robot with black paint as an example of Black Dude Dies First strikes me as a horrendous shoehorn. And the treatment of droids in Star Wars isn't really relevant, since the trope is more about tokenism than anything else.

      Yes, even if we accept that droids in the Star Wars universe are an oppressed minority, which is sometimes treated as African-Americans too-often are or were treated in our world, I don't think Black Dude Dies First applies, because that trope is about real-world racism - that is, the person who dies first has to belong to a minority in the real world, not in the fictional universe. That's my real reason for calling it shoehorning (I just hadn't thought it through completely when posting above). Also, do we really have any evidence that the black paintjob of the droid is to be interpreted as analogous to skin colour in our world? I'm not convinced of that - if nothing else, why aren't all droids black in that case?

      Mentioning K2's paint gob was simply a humorous anecdote to cap off the example, like icing on a cake.

      If your going to be so hung upon limiting Black Dude Dies First to purely be about only those of African decent, then I have to say that's far to narrow to trope. I repeat, Tropes Are Flexible. Droids are an established minority in the Star Wars universe. I wouldn't axe an entry where the character to die was Latino instead of black, why would a Droid not apply?

      ^ Because he's not the only Token Minority in the group I guess? He's not even the only non-human in the group during the time of his death.

      The idea of that trope applying in a cast as diverse as that of Rogue One is pointless.

      ^^ That is by far a better reason than saying he's simply 'not of african decent.' I'll concede the debate. I'd also like to thank you. You are the one of the few people to have proven me wrong.

      ^I guess we can lock this now.

      Before it's locked: I'm not sure if sailing101 was referring to me when they wrote about being hung-up on limiting Black Dude Dies First to persons of African descent, but if that's so, it's a misunderstanding. I think the trope applies to all kinds of minorities, but they should be minorities in the Real World, not minorities that only exist in the work. To me, the essence of the trope is "movies are racist" (or tokenist, or whatever), not "movies depict racism". And moviemakers can't be racist towards a minority that doesn't exist in the real world.

      But that aside, the argument put forward by Adept and Fighteer really settles it. When all the main characters belong to one or more minorities, it doesn't make sense to apply the trope, because regardless of who dies first, it's some kind of "black dude".

      droid hate falls under Fantastic Racism (at this moment in time, although it may not in the future) and does not fit with Black Dude Dies First, which is about the Token Minority character being killed. Bury Your Gays is the trope for if it's a gay person dying before the end of the movie, so these tropes are specific to those groups.
  • 4 Jan 14th, 2017 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 14th Jan, 2017 09:16:44 PM
    Troper Scrambled_Minds just left a rather inappropriate comment on the discussion page for John W. Campbell.

    I can't say I don't have some sympathies for the comment. Campbell's legacy is, at the least, complicated. Still, I think this may be exceeding the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement, even if it is on a discussion page where no one ever goes. I thought the mods might want to take a look. Reply

      Um, yeah, that is completely in appropriate. And content-free.

      Also did the same sort of thing on the Dean Koontz discussion page

      Suspend him.

      'twas a ban evader. Bounced and reverted their nonsense.
  • 5 Feb 19th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 20th Feb, 2017 05:33:49 AM
    I get these ads at the bottom of pages on mobile. They end up taking a good amount of space, and when I try to hit the grey "x" to close them, I always get sent to the top of the page. Does anyone else have this issue, and is there anything I can do? Reply

      I'm getting it too.

      I've got this going on too... it's annoying as hell *headdesk*

      Same here.

      The ad report thread said it's being looked into.

      Yes, I get them too. Good to know someone is looking into it.
  • 6 Feb 27th, 2017 at 4:04PM
    Lastest Reply: 1st Mar, 2017 11:23:57 AM
    This has already been asked on the discussion page for the trope, and I've tried asking on the Regarding the Trivia namespace thread, both of which have gotten no responses. So I thought I'd ask here.

    Is there any reason why Adaptational Context Change is considered trivia, unlike the other Adaptation tropes. Reply



      I think this can be handled by the trivia thread. Sometimes, you just need to make another comment with more detail 'cause everyone is doing their thing.

      I don't think that's correct. Adaptation changes are tropes as they show up in the work when you compare the original with the adaptation. Trivia is for stuff wholly outside of the work, such as actor changes.

      ^The sponsor of the trope added it to the trivia list in 2014 despite nobody in the draft comments suggesting it be on there.

      I think that might be due to confusion. Of the "does alternate continuities/adaptations really count as a normal trope or are they too meta" sense.
  • 1 Mar 6th, 2017 at 11:11PM
    Lastest Reply: 7th Mar, 2017 07:14:59 AM
    The Swordsman has made several changes accusing fans of political correctness and wanting diversity for diversity's sake. Nothing banworthy yet but probably worth a warning. Reply

      Reverted and warned.
  • 15 Mar 13th, 2017 at 2:02PM
    Lastest Reply: 15th Mar, 2017 11:12:42 PM
    People are still adding political/drama posts onto YMMV.Jon Tron. While I don't agree with Jon's views, considering the recent stream debate we should probably add some message warning people against adding these types of examples on the page itself. Reply

      There's an example I would like to take off, but it would probably result in edit warring. It's the example about his sub-reddit turning against him. Two people already deleted and re-added elements of that example.

      I like GKG's edit reason. Apparently, saying "black people commit more crimes" is not "racist and offensive".

      This is one of the reasons I'm having trouble trusting tropers' editing judgment at the moment.

      As someone who has no interest in Jontron and is coming in with no knowledge of his works...

      We may need a machete and a few taps on the shoulder.

      Pull the examples to discussion and direct editors to it in the edit reason. Leave a commented out message where they were inserted, also pointing to discussion.

      Yes, they'll probably get shredded anyway, but maybe it'll put the brakes on the ping pong battle for a bit.

      Trust me, I've only watched him in passing and even I know this a clusterscrew.

      The only way to avoid flamebait here is going to be cleaning his pages and locking them for the time being until things cool down.

      I don't watch his videos but reading his, "Huuur Trump will make America white again, I hate other races trololololol" talk we do not want to invite others to the party, particularly anyone who might search the site for scandal trigger troll target #scandaltriggertrolltarget and think they could get some mileage from this.

      That example that I already mentioned, concerning "Destiny" and his fans turning against him, has been deleted and readded again since I last mentioned it.

      It's been reworded to say the same thing...not sure how that constitutes as far as edit warring goes but I'll see if stepping in helps.

      ...I'm beginning to agree with locking the page until the drama dies down.

      I'm also thinking the page should be locked. People with an agenda seem to be insisting the policy-breaking examples stay on the page — even after I linked to a post explicitly defining the policy.

      It's also moving over to YMMV.Game Grumps. Yesterday, somebody added the thing about the "Destiny" stream.

      The name sounds familiar...think they were adding political tropes before.

      Thirding the lock.

      I put a request in here. I don't know if that would be a redundancy or requirement.

      It's been locked.

      Requesting a thread lock since the aim of the thread (ROCEJ fun units removed and pages permalocked) has been achieved.
  • 5 Mar 29th, 2017 at 1:01AM
    Western Animation
    Lastest Reply: 30th Mar, 2017 10:36:31 PM
    Okay there are four pages at the bottom of what seems to be an index for YMMV items pertaining to Friendship is Magic. All of which have nonstandard pages. These 4 are:

    I understand why these page would exist, and why a namespace convention like that would be use (consistency for the use of tropes as namespaces for trope subpages), but I don't think this is really kosher (well expect maybe Other, but that'd still be a nonstandard use). I want to know if we should move them to pages with the namespace and article name reversed or to new pages (with both the work name and the current namespace as the title) under the YMMV/ namespace as per more traditional namespace/YMMV page conventions?

    If this had been brought up before, i apologize. Reply

      Ahem, sorry for the bump, but I still am waiting for a response on these pages.

      The first three are nope. Other can be a subpage if the page was big enough to split folders into their own pages, BUT it has to be used properly. (Not skirting NRLEP, not a dumping ground for stuff that goes in other folders, etc. Really there's rarely a need for an Other folder once the page hits a certain size.)

      Move the tropes to the appropriate page (Main, YM Mv, etc.,) for the work. If the page gets too big, it can be split, usually done by alphabet.

      I see. Would a Short term projects thread be appropriate for this kind of reorginisation?

      I think a short-term project thread for the whole MLP FIM conglomeration is a good idea. If only because I'm sure other problems will come out of the woodwork given how many subpages there are already...

      Okay If its okay, I made a short term thread here for the "loose" YMMV pages.
  • 1 May 2nd, 2017 at 11:11PM
    Lastest Reply: 3rd May, 2017 03:59:42 PM
    Knighthood 45 removed these two examples on Fire Emblem Fates Nohr Retainers And Others without giving a reason, and after I put them back while stating I did it because they didn't give a reason for why they're removing the tropes, they ended up doing it once again without giving a reason:

    • I Choose to Stay: If married to a female Avatar in Revelation, his ending mentions that he chooses to stay with her after disappearing for a short while, presumably saying goodbye to his old world.

    • My Girl Is a Slut: Mutually, if he marries Charlotte. The two agree to an open relationship with both allowed to flirt with others to their heart's content, playfully daring the other to find a better man/woman.

      Suspending, as they're edit warring. I'll revert the last edit.
  • 0 May 12th, 2017 at 7:07PM
    On here, Peeve deleted a trope, Forenperser added it back, and Peeve deletes it again. Reply
  • 8 May 13th, 2017 at 6:06AM
    Lastest Reply: 13th May, 2017 09:08:14 PM
    Nightshade 96 has been on a mass page-spitting/index-creating spree as pointed out in this previous query. Said troper was contacted and informed that they should probably get some kind of consensus before making such large page changes.

    Despite this they appear to still be continuing with what they are doing, despite the numerous problems they are creating:

    For example sometimes they're creating pages with so few examples, it can be hard to see why they were moved in the first place, such as MythologyGag.Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol 2 (as noted here) which had only 7 examples when it was created (on a related note on the page they were moved from another troper has undone the removal and restored the examples — despite the sub-page still existing, and then more recently Nightshade has deleted the examples again).

    They also aren't checking to make sure that all the examples from the main trope page are being moved to the sub-pages and not just the examples from the work pages. For example they created AdaptationExplanationExtrication.Harry Potter by taking examples from Film.Harry Potter, later another troper deleted all the Harry Potter examples from Adaptational Explanation Extrication because there was now already a separate page. The problem was there were more examples on the main page, than there were on the newly created sub-page, so if I hadn't thought to go to the history page and copy the examples over they would probably been ignored and then lost.

    Nightshade also doesn't appear to be correcting any errors that might be in the examples, e.g. several pages contain a lot of Example Indentation, Natter and Word Cruft which was carried over from when the examples were part of a work page, and in the case of Narm.Spiderman 3 Nightshade has actually added Example Indentation. Nightshade also isn't removing any see example or see X'snote  bits when they transferred to their own pages (such as the "See Freeze-Frame Bonus" on MythologyGag.Superman The Animated Series).

    They also aren't checking to see whether the examples themselves are being used correctly before being moved. To give an illustration they created an Expy sub-page for The Heroes of Olympus, which then has to be cut as it was determined in the Expy Clean-Up Thread that none of the examples were being used correctly. This is especially problematic considering several of the sub-pages they've created have been for tropes like Broken Base and Narm which are infamous for the amount of misuse they attract on this wiki (at least two Broken Base pages Nightshades created have even been contested by the clean-up thread as both movies they are for have yet to be released.


      Nightshade 96 seems to hear people out in TLP concerning Nighshade's drafts. For example, they discarded Awesome in Hindsight and Kissed by the Supernatural and Break-Up Tears. They launched Laugh of Love (TLP draft), which seems fine looking at the description and skimming the example section.

      That said, Nightshade did split the example section unnecessarily for Laugh of Love.

      My best guess for Nightshade's logic behind the rampant page splitting is "if an entry has so many bullet points that it goes over a page, then it's free game to split". I feel that type of reasoning is flawed for numerous reasons. I'm pretty sure there have been instances were they've created sub-pages for works before they've split it by medium (i.e, a Fandom Beserk Button page for the Marvel Cinematic Universe without creating a sub-page for Live Action Film, or An Aesop page for Gravity Falls without creating a sub-page for Western Animation).

      I really think subpages should only be created when absolutely necessary. Nightshade may think that they make the wiki more structured and easier to navigate, but in my experience the effect is the opposite: the more subpages, the harder it is to find the place where an entry should go, and the larger the risk for duplicate entries (because a troper can't find an entry, believes it doesn't exist, and adds it in the wrong place).

      [The nefarious double poster strikes again. Beware!]

      This is seriously getting out of hand. NightShade96 has split a frankly absurd number of tropes on the Game of Thrones subpages onto individual subpages, to the point that the pages are an unnavigable maze. And the same thing is happening to, well, just name an action superhero film from the last ten years and it's had the same thing done to it. I'm attempting to clean up the unnecessary Reality Ensues subpages at the moment, and there's almost a dozen of those alone (the Marvel Cinematic Universe subpage was especially ridiculous; so many films had been put on individual pages that there was almost nothing left on the main MCU pages - apart from some duplicate examples).

      EDITED TO ADD: Oh dear lord. The Mythology Gag/ pages were about as easy to navigate as [insert the name of your home country here]'s tax code (unless you're an accountant - and even then). The films in the Marvel Cinematic Universe all had individual subpages, getting to which required going to the Film/ page... and from there to the Marvel Cinematic Universe subpage... and from there to the individual film pages. I've consolidated the examples on the Marvel Cinematic Universe page. (And that's not the half of it; one of the Captain America films had something like eight or nine tropes that had been carved off into individual subpages. Haven't got to them yet... this is as much as I have the presence of mind to do for now.)

      There's already been a thread for this troper and problem. If he's still doing it, better call him in since the pms clearly didn't work

      Called them in.

      I thought I was the only one who noticed the unusual amoutn of subpage activity!