• 0 May 27th, 2017 at 11:11PM
    I came across Literature.Rai Kirah today while checking my watchlist updates. It's a recently created page made by indigoazure.. The issue here is that, at the time of this writing, there's no description for the work whatsoever. All it has is, and I quote, "(Also commonly written as Rai-Kirah). A fantasy series of three books by Carol Berg." and then a list of the three books in the trilogy. There's a few issues with the tropes themselves, the most glaring being three tropes listed on one bullet and whose context was quotations direct from the book itself. I just flat out deleted those and commented out anything else blatantly zero context. (EDIT: The editor has fixed the three on one bullet tropes by putting at least two as their own tropes with context)

    I've sent the page creator a PM about fixing the description, specifically linking to How to Create a Works Page and quoting the relevant portion to make the point. I'm mostly posting here, too, to have everything "on the record" so to speak in case any further action is needed later. Reply
  • 4 May 16th, 2017 at 3:03AM
    Lastest Reply: 22nd May, 2017 11:28:49 PM
    (Definition: I use Crazysamaritian's point 3 as the definition of the word "series".)

    Let's say, at first there's the Original Series. And then there're several spinoffs of the Original Series, some of them qualify as a series on their own. Eventually, the publisher gave a "Superseries" title for the Original Series and all its Spinoffs.

    Suppose all the works described above uses the same work page. In that case, the work page should be named after the Superseries (following the First Installment and Franchise separation project), or the Original Series (for the best known title)? Reply

      If it's a single page, it is assumed that it would have been a Franchise/ page had the franchise received entries in enough media.

      This means that the page should be located at the superseries' names, with redirects from the individual series' names.

      The Multimedia Franchise namespace is reserved for works that already have at least three work pages (each in a different medium). I don't believe there is a strong preference for which of the two following methods are used to start troping a franchise:
      • A franchise page in the original medium.
      • A single work page in the original medium.
      Of course, the goal is a page for every work, and franchise pages for each grouping of the work.

      ^ & ^^: I'm referring to single-media franchises here. Rules of the Franchise/ namespace don't apply here.

      In that case, I would say yes. Use the official "superseries" title, but have redirects from the original series name. (And other series names.) That should make it easier if any of the individual series get split off later.

      Check out all the redirects which point to Alliance/Union, for example. (And that one already has separate pages for a number of its subseries or individual books as well.)
  • 1 May 17th, 2017 at 3:03PM
    Lastest Reply: 17th May, 2017 03:39:28 PM
    There was a book I read in elementary about this man that is weaving a blanket on a loom.

    He is in a hurry to beat the storm, so he decides to speed up the weaving in the middle. He ends the blanket like normal and finishes it.

    He goes to sleep and then a woman spirit enters his home and turns him into an armadillo.

    It was illustrated with pastel colors, if I am remembering right. It's more like a short story and has a page of illustration and words on every other page. I've looked up everything I could imagine but nothing else that would be obvious comes to mind. Reply
  • 1 May 14th, 2017 at 2:02AM
    Lastest Reply: 14th May, 2017 02:50:01 AM
    I know cartoons have their own tropes, but what about the cartoon's fanfiction? If they're looong and emotionally traumatising enough, do they get a place here? Reply

      Yes, we do trope fan fiction here. They go under the Fanfic/ namespace.
  • 1 May 12th, 2017 at 10:10AM
    Lastest Reply: 12th May, 2017 01:18:52 PM
    Been trying to fill in the works of two prolific writers, Ira Tabankin and P. S. Powers, both of which I know purely through Amazon, and I have a couple questions. At least three Tabankin titles start with numbers, is it acceptable to write them out and custom title the digits? Is it alright to make a creator page for Powers even though it's probably a penname and every "about the author" he writes consists of trolling? Do we have an "Teh Evil Moslems" trope besides Mideast Terrorists? Because it comes up a lot in Tabanlins books. Likewise Powers is incredibly fond of a specific protagonist, a hilariously humble yet skilled nerd who is incredibly shy around women, to the point of outright refusing to believe they want anything to do with him, who amasses an enormous fame and wealth without really noticing. Is there a way to ask for help with these besides adding them to the vast list of 'needs wiki magic love' and praying for a miracle? Reply

      In order...

      1)Yes, spell the numbers at the beginning of the names and use a custom title for display as digits.

      2)If, as your questions makes it seem, there is no actual verifiable data on Powers beyond the existence of the name, I wouldn't bother making one. Or, just keep it very basic "This person wrote the following, and frequently makes use of these tropes" with no real biographical info.

      3)Seek out Trope Finder for answers regarding "Teh Evil Moslems" and the oblivious nerdling.

      4)Try asking in relevant forum threads if any exist to see if there are other fans who might be willing to help.
  • 7 Apr 28th, 2017 at 5:05PM
    Lastest Reply: 29th Apr, 2017 12:52:36 PM
    Ok, came across Literature/MTSC (Magic and Sorcery Training Center) and was interested in reading it-only problem is that searching for it via google only finds our page for it, along with numerous assorted magic blogs. I'm not sure this actually exists, but would like some confirmation before declaring it fake. I have pmed the person who created the page, xavieraios, but they haven't replied. Note that this page and the associated character page are his only edits to the site.

    In lieu of actually getting a response to my PM, can someone with better google skills than me see if they can track down this supposed series and tell me if it actually exists? Reply

      Story by that name in hosted on fanfiction .net. Only three results via Google, though. Our page, fanfiction .net and the same work on gofanfiction.club. It's not a finished work at all; just sort of an outline/list of ideas.


      Hint, when using the actual Google search, enclosing a word or phrase in double quotes will limit t he search to exactly that string of characters, so you don't get the false hits for things like blog posts that happen to include all the words you searched for, but not the exact phrase.

      So, in that case since it's more a collection of ideas and an outline rather than a fleshed out story does it run afoul of the unpublished works ban and need to be moved to Darth Wiki, or does it stay?

      Move it to Darth Wiki, as there is no actual story.

      I concur with Berrenta; it belongs in Darth under Unpublished, if it belongs anywhere. Personally, I'd be inclined to cut it as not being a work at all. but it's definitely not a published work.

      Seems published to me. If the page is troping only the stuff that has been put out in public, it is published. If it's just a collection of ideas, it's indeed cutlist material but not Darth Wiki material.

      It is just ideas (in chapter 1 this will happen, of course there'll be the obligatory "X" scene, basic plot outline, and such,) , bit's of dialogue, and brief character sketches and such. It's notes for a work that might or might not ever be written, not a work itself, by any stretch.

      In any case, added to the cutlist
  • 3 Apr 28th, 2017 at 5:05PM
    Lastest Reply: 28th Apr, 2017 08:04:50 PM
    Hey there, to anyone who cares to read this!

    I am a relatively new troper here, although I have spent a great deal of time lurking in the shadows here before I formally joined. I am just starting to get my feet wet here, and am still learning the ropes. One of the things that I'm still clueless about is the process of creating a new trope page. I'm interested in starting one for a Zootopia fanfiction a friend of mine is writing as a sort of surprise for him. If anyone here can instruct me in this process, I'd be grateful! Reply
  • 1 Apr 22nd, 2017 at 7:07AM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Apr, 2017 04:13:03 PM
    The Young Adult Literature description seems overly long and/or nattery, and still has trouble indexing works and having works show up on its page in the related pages section.

    All Our Yesterdays is a good example, as it shows up very early on the YAL page but still isn't featured. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/relatedsearch.php?term=Literature/AllOurYesterdays

    Even weirder is that it seems to only affect this page, as other huge pages like Manga still show up, as seen in this work that was just added to it. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/relatedsearch.php?term=Manga/Mx0 Reply
  • 1 Apr 23rd, 2017 at 6:06AM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Apr, 2017 06:38:40 AM
    so there was this tv show I watched a few years back. Around 2008 I believe? In the opening theme before the episode starts I remember there were like green letters and it was like going through an underground sewer and in the song I remember hearing the words "Cookie Monster" and I literally have no idea why. I remember one episode a guy is like at a party and then a harp or some random monster busts through the ceiling ( god I hope I'm remembering this right) but that's all I remember someone please help! Reply
  • 2 Apr 10th, 2017 at 9:09PM
    Lastest Reply: 10th Apr, 2017 09:28:58 PM
    Who Censored Roger Rabbit? has some severe formatting issues & could use a clean up. Reply

      Yep. For starters, there are multiple images, none of them on top of the page. I'll start a thread on it in IP.

      The example list needs help, too.

      I right aligned them and shrunk the bigger ones to match up. Probably should stick to one or a composite in one image.
  • 1 Apr 8th, 2017 at 4:04PM
    Lastest Reply: 8th Apr, 2017 06:09:45 PM
    I've noticed a lot of Plays and Books have obvious anachronisms that are never mentioned. If I could I have several ones I'd like to purpose. I already added on to A Midsummer Night's Dream about Saint Valentine. Reply

      If you're asking for permission to add examples, you don't need to. If you're new to editing here, you might want to look at a the Administrivia pages, specifically the Dos and Don'ts, so you don't inadvertently break the rules.
  • 3 Mar 31st, 2017 at 6:06PM
    Lastest Reply: 31st Mar, 2017 07:14:22 PM
    This feels like a question for ATT.

    Should Neil Gaiman's 2017 anthology that's titled Norse Mythology be troped in Myth.Norse Mythology, Literature.Norse Mythology, or Literature.Norse Mythology Gaiman? There's a bit of a disagreement on the discussion page but it feels like it shouldn't be determined between just two or three tropers.

    One reason I think it shouldn't be on the Myth/ page is that it's not exactly a "primary source" or even a "contemporary(-ish) secondary source." And IIRC Gaiman admitted in an interview that he adapted the stories to be more modern, which doesn't seem like just a translation... Reply

      Definitely not Myth if you're creating a page specifically for the book, no matter how true to the original stories it is.

      Everything I've read about it suggests that it's updated to be more digestible to modern readers, so even if it's only the language that changes that should be enough to keep it to Literature (though apparently there are a few other differences as well) .

      I didn't mean to imply I was planning to make another page for it. I can help with that, but I just want to be transparent: I think it should not go on the Myth/ page regardless of whether there's a separate page.

      I realize now that that was not wholly clear in OP, so I'm just clarifying.

      I just read the discussion, and I'd say anything that's specific to Gaiman's version shouldn't be on the page. I don't know if Gaiman just gives his own interpretations of things or if he changes things outright, but if it's not something you can get from the accepted canon, then it should probably stay off.
  • 4 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 7:07PM
    Lastest Reply: 24th Mar, 2017 06:01:07 PM

    My index "China Fiction" has been removed. The reason given is: little content in the wrong namespace.

    I aim to recreate it because I want to catalog the various fiction written in English about China and have an index that reflects this. Could someone give me some guidance on the proper to way to go about this? Should it be under Literature or Main?

    Thank you for your help. Reply

      Could you please WikiWord the page? It's easier than going through pages of the Recent Cuts list. What namespace was it in before?

      That said, generally new indexes should go through YKTTW.

      It looks like it was at Literature.China Fiction

      ^ Thank you. I was particularly confused why the Literature namespace was brought up, but now I get it.

      We do have Chinese Media (which is under Main/), and Chinese literature is already listed on that index. I think if you are looking for an index of works about China, then you could bring that to YKTTW in order to collect examples.

      I'll try that then. :) Thanks for your help!
  • 2 Mar 23rd, 2017 at 12:12PM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Mar, 2017 04:01:12 PM
    I'd like to create a new page for a series of books called the "Earthborn Trilogy", but Literature already has a much more notable "Earthborn" book which redirects to another series. What would be the best name to name it? Is "Earthborn (Series)" an acceptable name for the literary work? Reply

      Since a quick google search says the trilogy is officially called The Earthborn Trilogy, Literature.The Earthborn Trilogy is your best bet, I think. Note the The, which seems to be part of the official title. You could then also mention the other Earthborn book at the end of the work description, to avoid confusion.

      Thanks Derkhan, your advice is much appreciated!
  • 13 Mar 6th, 2017 at 7:07PM
    Lastest Reply: 21st Mar, 2017 05:03:50 PM
    So I've actually had this on my watchlist for a while, but I want to see how I should move forward with this.

    So Universe-11N is a page that has a listing of random stories and shared tropes mad by Gfyftg, whose entire editing history is solely of editing these story pages. The problem is that this page and the specific story ones are littered with spoiler tags, ZC Es, and just general editing issues.

    Those problems aside, I did a quick Google search for all of the stories and "the young author Nathan Thornsbury". Nothing. None of this appears to exist anywhere on the internet.

    I also think that the editor is the author of these stories, but I have no way of actually proving that.

    How should I exactly proceed here? It's a large amount of pages, and I have no way of verifying that any of the tropes actually pertain to the story. Should I try to fix the pages and their issues? Cutlist them altogether? Move it to Darth Wiki? Reply

      Oh, by the way, none of the pages (the main page and the stories with links) are indexed.

      I did my own search with Universe 11 N on MSN, and got nothing. The only links I find are on Google, and they lead back to TV Tropes.

      I found a Nathan Thornsbury that has a connection to an author, but he's an 11th grader somewhere and he's not an author (the author in the article I found is Rick Riordan, the author of the Percy Jackson novels).

      The next links with my search "Nathan Thornsbury Author" lead back here.

      Sounds like someone else troping works that exist only in their heads or in personal files.

      Either cut or move to Unpublished Works in Darth Wiki.

      Susoended. Let's get an explanation of where these works are before anyone puts any work into trying to fix the pages.

      He also has VideoGame.Marvel DC Crisis Of Infinite Brands which seems to be entirely made up. Other than a wikia site (solely edited by the author) there's no sign of this on the web.

      The... optimism about that game also casts doubt on the veracity of his claim in the Edit/Banned thread about how there's a publisher who is planning on printing his books.

      All the articles should either be cut or transplanted to Darth Wiki.

      I'm transplanting the ones that at least have descriptions and some effort put into them (I've yet to look at all of them). Do unpublished works get Characters/ pages? (I know they don't get other subpages, but I want to check on that one before sending to the cutlist.)

      No, they do not get any subpages.

      Based on the troper's edit history and the Literature/ hub page, I think I got all of them. I cut the stubs, Characters/ and Literature/ pages, and I moved the non-stubs to Darth Wiki/. I indexed the survivors on Unpublished Works. I dewicked the pages that just won't exist once they're cut.


      Stubs sent directly to cut list (in case anybody wants to defend them or move them):

      As for Gfyftg? His signature on the Edit Banned/Suspended thread makes me think HE'S the author. He even calls himself the "Creator of Universe 11N".

      Wouldn't be the first time 'I have this friend' came up.

      All we can do is see how he behaves.

      I didn't touch the Video Game/ pages yet. The following is based on the troper's edit history. I think the only extant work was Batman Arkham VR.

      EDIT: Okay, Crusaders of the Lost Idols does exist. I added it to the cut list seeing that it was a stub (and after nine or ten pages for non-extant works, I jumped the gun). The Lost Idols game has accrued over 50 inbounds with 2 wicks since October 2016, so I actually think it should stay in order to be expanded. I mentioned the fact that it actually exists on the discussion page.

      To everyone on this page, I have a clarification to make. This is Gfyftg, and yes, I am the author of said stories. The stories are not just head-canon but are actual novellas that I myself have written and am trying to get published officially. I wasn't aware that not yet released works are supposed to go onto the Darth Wiki, but now that I know that, I will be sure not to make the mistake again. As for the Marvel DC Video Game, that was also something that began of my own creation. It started as a family project that I made the Wikia for to let other people help create the game through crowd idea generation. Unfortunately, I have been the only person to edit it, because no one else has found the site and been willing to add to it.

      Also, I realize now that I should have been more directly transparent with the fact that I was the author of the novels as well as the account holder making those pages, and I do apologize. I did not mean to take advantage of the TV Tropes site or its users, or cause any undue confusion in any way. I have always loved TV Tropes. If you decide to move them to the Darth Wiki, I completely understand, and I apologize for any confusion or inconvenience I may have caused.

      EDIT: Also, the Rick Riordan article is old. I'm actually an outgoing senior and current college student now.
  • 7 Mar 19th, 2017 at 6:06AM
    Lastest Reply: 20th Mar, 2017 10:17:39 PM
    Is it okay to recreate the Twilight page? It seems like there are enough examples with citations to warrant it, and the reason the page was cut was because the examples had no citations. Reply

      Are they different examples than what's on the main page?

      Mostly, there are about four entries common to both pages.

      So will it be possible to do so?

      Well, you won't be able to do it directly since cut pages are automatically locked. I would suggest using a Sandbox, and then bringing your request to the Locked pages thread.

      Okay, so it should be like Sandbox.Twilight? This is my first time creating a sandbox.

      To minimize potential overlap, your best bet is making it Sandbox.Night Shade 96.

      Okay, thanks for the help.
  • 6 Mar 15th, 2017 at 2:02PM
    Lastest Reply: 16th Mar, 2017 12:17:04 AM
    I found this on the YMMV page of The Lord of the Rings under the Hilarious in Hindsight paragraphs:

    • Sauron has his own tower and his kingdom is surrounded by a wall. This becomes a lot funnier after a certain someone became the 45th President of the United States.

    Does this violate ROCEJ in regards to Trump? Reply

      Yes. It barely makes sense, just a shoehorn for a Take That!

      If you find similar entries, you can bring them up at this clean-up thread.

      Note that the first post in that thread says:

      "Donald Trump, as with any other current political figure, should not be a subject of any trope example on the wiki, except:
      • When the work in question specifically mentions the RL individual.
      • When the entirety of the example has to do with the portrayal of that individual in the work.
      • When the work is fictional.
      All three of these must apply. Alternatively:
      • When the RL individual has a creative role themselves, such as writing or acting in a work. In this sense we give them no more nor less treatment then we would any other creator.
      Additionally, please make sure to take out any examples of "Funny Aneurysm" Moment, Harsher in Hindsight, or Hilarious in Hindsight regarding these political figures." (emphasis added)

      I removed it with the edit reason of it being a violation of Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement and it's a shoehorned Take That! entry.

      You can also put a link to that thread in the edit reason field.

      Uh, yeah, that's a blatant Take That! against Trump, and outside the rules. I don't even know how whoever wrote that would make this connection.

      At least, not in my mind.
  • 3 Mar 15th, 2017 at 4:04AM
    Lastest Reply: 15th Mar, 2017 07:33:26 AM
    Do Light Novels count as Literature? Asking because I add an example of one to a couple of Literature tags without thinking about it first. Reply

      Light Novels have their own namespace, if that's what you're asking. If it's about example placements, I usually put the entry in the Literature folder if the trope/event only occurs in the LN. However, if a more well-known anime adaptation exists (as is usually the case), it goes under the Anime/Manga folder.

      @Adept So they don't count? Sorry for sounding dumb.

      (I didn't read the question well. Disregard.)
  • 8 Mar 13th, 2017 at 6:06PM
    Lastest Reply: 14th Mar, 2017 06:47:43 PM
    As noted in the intro, Minor Crime Reveals Major Plot is a very common plot in crime fiction, so that in some crime novel series, many installments have this kind of structure. So if I write for this trope for such series, should I write a general statement of that fact, like "Most installments of Alice and Bob is structured around this trope", or should I list the details of every example? Reply

      I think just saying that the works are structured around the trope without actually explaining it would make it a Zero-Context Example, so the latter way is the one you should go.

      You don't have to list every example. But you need to list specific examples.

      "Most episodes of Alice and Bob use this trope" is a what we call a "generic example". Those are not allowed and can be removed without discussion whenever they're found.. You need to list at least one and preferably two specific episodes and explain how the trope is used. You don't have to list a whole bunch of them and you certainly don't have to ltry to list all of them.

      General examples are specifically forbidden. So yes, every occurrence needs its own filled-out specific example.

      Echoing Xtifr: "You don't have to list every example. But you need to list specific examples." You might do something like...

      • Most installments of Alice and Bob are structured around this trope. Some notable examples include:
        • In the first episode, a jaywalking ticket leads to a murder conviction.
        • The arson investigation in the Christmas special is kicked off by a loitering charge.
        • In S3E12, Charlie's drug dealing is revealed to be a cover for a worldwide conspiracy to eradicate the giraffe.

      Thanks all. By the way, is it appropriate to list notably exceptions for the same series after listing notable (straight) examples?

      As far as I know, yes.

      If a series or work uses it so often that exceptions are memorable, then Yes, listing episodes that play with it is acceptable. If a series or work uses it so reliably that it's unexpected and surprising when they don't you could even go so far as to make the first bullet point a brief summary of some of the ways it was used, then further points individual episodes where it wasn't used.

      • Series X
        • Relies heavily on this trope, with the main crime of each episode being a murder or murders, but the original thing that Detective X is called in to solve including a lost dog in "Pupperkin", harassing phone calls in "Ring, Brrrrring", a stolen suitcase in "Body Bag", and forged checks in "Blank Check"
        • The episode "Let's All Play 'Cluedo' " actually starts and ends with X investigating only one crime, the suspicious death of a college girl. Murder is one of the first possibilities brought up as to what happened to her.

      Like that....
  • 4 Mar 12th, 2017 at 5:05AM
    Lastest Reply: 12th Mar, 2017 05:22:40 PM
    Literature/ThreeBodyProblem is the wrong title for the book The Three-Body Problem, since it lacks a "The". I am looking to move it to a new page called Literature/TheThreeBodyProblem. I checked How to Move a Page, but things look somewhat outdated and overly focused on Namespace migrations, and I'm currently stuck on how to move the discussion page.

    Actually, I just need some help with moving a discussion page. I hadn't started doing anything yet, because I haven't gotten everything planned out yet. I just need to know how do I move the discussion page. Reply

      You ask a moderator to move a discussion page. Better if you move the page first - the instructions on How To Move a Page still apply, you just use The Three-Body Problem as the target.

      I've moved the main page and subpages to their new locations and had placed the original page on Cut List (though I'm expecting some problems since it has like 1600 inbound links from other sites). I think it should be a good time to move the discussion as well unless the inbound link is such a big problem I'll have to revert all my edits and turn the page into a redirect instead.

      I had posted to Wick Migration thread and hollered with my own post about moving the discussion.

      Moving discussions or reviews can be asked directly in the Locked Pages thread. This thread is for any edit that can only be made by moderators.

      You can turn Three Body Problem into a redirect to The Three Body Problem if (when?) the cut is denied.
  • 2 Mar 10th, 2017 at 11:11PM
    Lastest Reply: 11th Mar, 2017 01:27:55 AM
    I am writing the work page for Theriomorph Chronicles. Right now I am writing the story of Untermenschen and I am trying to wrap up Chapter 5. Editing the work page was quite hard, although I am writing and familiar to the story in my head but I am trying to select tropes appropriate for this work page.

    Just remember to read the story on DeviantArt or FictionPress.

    I would be grateful if you can construct it for me, Reply

      This is not quite the place you want to promote your work, nor should it be. Take it to the forums at least.

      Technically speaking, the forum isn't an appropriate place either (except maybe having a general discussion thread for the work in Literature). Sorry to sound so discouraging, but we really do not work on such requests anywhere. Tropers who have interest in your story may trope it, if there aren't any you'll have to expand it yourself.
  • 4 Mar 6th, 2017 at 9:09PM
    Lastest Reply: 7th Mar, 2017 06:22:20 PM
    I intend to create a tvtropes page for the book Dreadnought. Problem is, the most logical url, "http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Dreadnought", already exists as a redirect for http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/ClockworkCentury. Any way to fix? Reply

      Do you know how to edit redirects? If so, you can just create the Dreadnought page and check wicks afterward.

      To edit an article that redirects you, edit a different article, then in your browser's address bar, replace the article groupname (aka namespace) and title with the groupname and title of the one you want to edit (in this case groupname Literature and title Dreadnought).

      Alternatively: Go to the Clockwork Century page. Click on the "Related" button in the header. Click on the link to Literature/Dreadnought. Click on the edit button.

      That said, it might be a good idea to leave the redirect alone and create your page at Literature/DreadnoughtXXXX, where XXXX is the year the book was released. (Assuming the two different Dreadnoughts weren't released in the same year, in which case things would get complicated.)

  • 1 Mar 4th, 2017 at 5:05PM
    Lastest Reply: 4th Mar, 2017 05:59:41 PM
    Okay, this is a little vague, but I need help with this! So the book has a baseball theme to it, and the main conflict arose because of some kid on an opposing baseball team (as I said, baseball theme) took the protagonist's little brother's statuette that he got at Disneyland? It's very vague. The title was something like "The x street y's" or something like that. It was probably published in the mid-late 80's. I don't know if it had illustrations or not, but it did have chapters if that helps anyone out. I would really like to know this please! Reply
  • 18 Feb 22nd, 2017 at 11:11PM
    Lastest Reply: 23rd Feb, 2017 01:42:23 PM
    What are the rules for adding/removing examples of Complete Monster to YMMV pages?

    I'm asking because at February 20th, Demon Duckof Doom removed an example that was added around a month and a half before to YMMV.Surface Detail, without an edit reason. Reply

      All CM examples go through the dedicated forum thread. Examples that qualify are properly crosswicked and can be checked against the locked CM pages.

      Looks as though this one wasn't cross-wicked, and its threadbare description suggests it was almost certainly not discussed in the thread. An edit reason would have been nice, but the removal appears correctly motivated.

      There was so much misuse (ie: listing every really evil character when this trope is for the extreme of being both evil AND having literally no redeeming traits or sympathetic qualities) that every example has to be discussed in the forum thread and approved now.

      Doing horrible things isn't this trope. Doing horrible thing AND being completely unlikable with no redeeming qualities, Pet the Dog moments, or sympathetic excuses is.

      ^ Pretty sure "completely unlikable" isn't prerequisite. Ok, you don't like the character as a person, but they can be likable as a villain. Sometime they're incredible fun to watch, maybe they're only one who manage to counter the resident Mary Sue with The Reason You Suck Shut Up, Kirk!, for example.

      The criteria are discussed in the topic.

      • They must be exceptional in terms of heinousness, both within the context of the work and the context of general audience expectations for works of that type.
      • They must not be eclipsed in heinousness by other characters in the work, even if said characters themselves do not meet the standards for CM. (Note: Allowances may be made for wildly varying capabilities — a corporate overlord may do more net harm, but a serial killer is a much more personal threat and operates on a vastly different scale.)
      • They must not have any redeeming qualities, such as love, remorse, etc. If presented with the opportunity for redemption, they reject it.
      • They must not have a genuine excuse for their actions — any justification they bring to the table should be insufficient or clearly specious.
      • They must have agency — they must be in voluntary control of their own behavior and moral choices.
      • They must be characterized sufficiently to establish motivation and intent. A Generic Doomsday Villain may do awful things, but unless we get some sense of why they do it, they can't be a CM.
      • Their actions must be visible to the audience and they must be directly responsible for said actions. Offscreen Villainy usually doesn't count; heinousness cannot be an Informed Attribute.
      • They must be an individual, not a group.

      • They should be reviled In-Universe. If there's anyone out there expressing love or regard for them, and that character is not brainwashed or otherwise insane, it's a serious mitigating factor.
      • They may be comedic, so long as their humor value does not mitigate their evil. Villains who laugh while torturing and killing can be among the most terrifying.
      • They cannot be genuinely likable; any apparent affability must be a facade.
      • The work itself should be capable of believably sustaining a monstrous character without losing its audience. This is why most works intended for young children (a "G", "E", or equivalent rating) can't have a CM.

      • We will not consider creepypastas or dark fics where the sole or primary intent is to evoke horror or disgust without any consideration for verisimilitude with the canonical interpretation of a character or characters.

      I almost feel like we're starting to run afoul of Tropes Are Not Narrow with this one, guys...

      Not relevant in this case. CM is a subjective trope because people cannot agree on the criteria, and it becomes something of a stamp of honor for a work to claim one. The cleanup effort is intended to address the problem by establishing rules that allow it to at least maintain the veneer of objectivity. The trope itself is legendary and is not going away, but the alternative to being rigorous is to have literally every villain in every work listed, which is what was happening before we attacked it.

      I kind of thought that was the point of YMMV tropes, of which this seems to be marked a YMMV trope judging by the banner.

      The thing is, YMMV tropes still all have definitions. And people love to add Complete Monster without bothering to figure out if they fit the definition of it.

      And if we let CM just go the way it was going, damn near every single work would have Complete Monster listed effectively making it meaningless. For reasons beyond my comprehension, fans tend to want their pet work to have a CM and think that it makes them better so they shoehorn it in.

      You can longer call a trope an audience reaction in good faith when it has such a restrictive definition. It might as well be moved to the main work pages and have it's YMMV status revoked at that point.

      In theory, that's the goal. Whether we ever get there or not is another matter. As it stands, all CM examples get voted on in the topic, which rather disrupts the idea that it can be treated objectively.

      CM is also not an audience reaction. It's a subjective trope, which is different. A subjective trope is based on criteria observably present in the work, even if people may disagree about the extent to which it occurs.

      This is dependent of Moral Event Horizon, that is an Audience Reaction.

      Worth noting: Moral Event Horizon is not an audience reaction, either.

      That's not what subjective means

      It's unclear why we are having this argument. There are several classes of non-work, non-creator article that we recognize:

      • Objective tropes, which occur factually within a work
      • YMMV tropes, which are arguable in terms of presence or degree of presence
      • Trivia, which is interesting information that is external to the presentation of a work — you wouldn't know it just by watching
      • Audience reactions, which do not occur within a work at all, but rather in a viewer's thoughts or opinions about a work
      • Flame bait, which is a subcategory of YMMV trope and/or audience reaction that is so volatile that we've decided not to host examples at all

      In many cases, the difference between an objective and a YMMV trope is usage: does it cause arguments? Is it a constant source of natter? Do we keep having to clean up examples that are a matter of opinion rather than fact? In all these criteria, Complete Monster falls squarely into the YMMV category.

      However, YMMV tropes can still have definitions. They aren't an excuse to lump anything you feel like in there because "it's your opinion, man". The reason for the CM cleanup thread and the strict criteria that we've been applying is that people were literally shoveling any villain they thought was the slightest bit mean into it, making it meaningless. It can't be seriously defined as the "worst possible villain, with no redeeming qualities" when some teenager beating up his younger brother is held in the same category as Jack the Ripper.

      Shoboni: Let's put it this way. The subjective, YMMV aspect to Complete Monster is not "I would like to call this character a CM" (which was the case before the cleanup effort), because it would make the trope so subjective as to be meaningless. It would mean just "somebody out there really thinks this character is evil".

      Instead, the consensus has been to make a set of criteria, and the subjective part is "I think the character fulfils the criteria".

      In general on this wiki, YMMV does not mean anything goes. Ignoring this is likely to land you in trouble and other tropers with a cleanup effort.

      In attempting to fix it we've gone the opposite extreme and and IMO, I strongly believe the new definition runs afoul of Tropes Are Not Narrow because so many restrictions have been added.

      Regardless, we've answered the OP's question and I am locking this.