- Every single inanimate object is the TARDIS. This includes Mars.
In a sequel, we'll learn that Rick Astley's father once paid for a fling with Mrs. Kovacs while vacationing in America, and he later returned to reclaim his illegitimate son and raise him. The sequel will take place years after the faked attack on New York, in a future where Adrian Veidt has been elected the leader of the new unified world government and controls it with a complex computer system. Rick will take up his fallen brother's mantle and use his deadly viral video to bring down Veidt's computer network and avenge his brother.
Also, The Keene Act banned all Knightmare Frames as well as all superheroes, fearing another Zero would crop up in America.
- But that begs the question of why the world has suddenly gone from like it was at the end of Code Geass, which includes his little sister ruling the territory he would have gone to, to the world of Watchmen?
- Fact 1: Dr. Manhattan is omniscient and has precognitive abilities.
- Fact 2: Dr. Manhattan is nowhere near stupid enough to believe that Rorschach was stupid enough to go to Antarctica wihtout making preparations of some sort beforehand.
- Fact 3: Dr. Manhattan's final words to Veidt (before ditching the Earth to "make human life of his own") are a cryptic "nothing ever ends".
Do the math. Killing Rorschach, in a way, killed Dr. Manhattan; after doing so, he decided to cut and run, and perhaps start over in another galaxy somewhere else. He knew that Veidt's peace wouldn't last, and after realizing that humanity's most stubborn champion had finally given up, he gave up on humanity.
I Actually I disagree. Dr. Manhatten specifically sees his OWN future. And we have no reason to believe he returns to Earth after leaving at the end, at least not in the near future. So if he leaves earth before Rorschach's journal is found, he would never know about it.
"As the third book in his acclaimed Pirates! Trilogy, Watchmen will never be surpassed, even by the author himself, Grant Morrison.
While I think we all agree that Watchman was a rather clunky start to trilogy—as Morrison attempted to shoehorn a lot of 2000AD continuity into a rather pedestrian tale of pirates—it wasn't until the sequel, Watchman II: A Dire Ship Across Dire Seas, where his true vision became apparent. I mean, what a twist—that ending!
And then Morrison had to go and completely top it all in the third installment, Watchmen. While the (A) plot is a somewhat obvious tale of retired superheroes and sci-fi monsters, Morrison cleverly weaved the true story—a pirate story—into the plot in a series of pirate-comics read by one of the characters. And just when we thought he couldn't top his twist in part II, it turns out that there never were any pirates at all in any of the stories. The pirates are really us, the readers, all along. Morrison's trilogy is actually a cautionary tale of illegally downloading comics off the inter-net. We are the pirates. Who pirates the Pirates, indeed?"
The Apocalypse starts with 3/4ths of humanity being spirited away to heaven; Watchmen ends with tens of millions of people experiencing either instant death or severe Mind Rape. Both stories hinge on the return of powerful beings (the nonexistant interdimensional aliens in the comic and Dr. Manhattan in the movie, respectively) while in the mean time a deceptive leader and his many tentacles of influence rules the world.
- Then Rorschach, I presume, knows about this fully. The proof: his "disguise" walks around carrying a sign saying that "The End is Nigh", and he speaks of how people will look up to him for help, while all he will do is whisper "No".
- It makes sense. The creature is the Beast and Ozymandias is the Antichrist. At the end of the book, Rorschach's journal is at the news desk, meaning the world will soon know that the alien was a fake set up by Ozymandias. When that happens, the USSR and the USA will see it as a mere diversion, and go back to the Cold War. But the USSR, seeing that the USA is weakened, will strike, starting up WWIII, which as we all know is basically the apocalypse.
- Maybe Bruce retained some vague recollection of his previous career as Rorschach, and the Rorschach outfit wound up as one of his unused ideas when he was trying to design his Batman costume. The guy in the bar could have been another aspiring superhero who simply "borrowed" one of his old ideas.
- Batman is not a homophobic bigot, though. Rorscharch also has very few issues with killing, something that is kind of a big deal for Batman. If anything, he would be more akin to the Punisher (including how he's not supposed to be a good guy or an example by the writers, but it's idolized by the fans nonetheless).
Both are charismatic, have superhuman reflexes, are very intelligent. Adrian even signs his letters with a "V—" in Watchmen.
After the events of Watchmen, Veidt leaves his Antarctic base and goes to England. He abandons his role as Ozy and takes on the role of V in order to take action again. V never actually was in a concentration camp, he was Adrian Veidt. He is hiding his identity behind the mask, not physical scars.
V also created a story about a fictional prisoner to give to Evie, who believed it. This makes it plausible that he could have been able to fabricate his own history as well.
- Alternatively, that could have actually happen to him. If this troper remembers correctly, the dates would kind of match up that after Viedt's plan, he moves to England, but everything goes to hell again (they say that entire continents were nuked). Veidt would probably confess to the earlier plan, seeing no other option, whereupon he is taken into custody and sent to the prison camps and one can take it from there.
- That or he was locked up for being gay- Veidt is hinted at being homosexual, and that's considered a crime in V for Vendetta's dystopian world.
- A slight correction: the story of the lesbian prisoner wasn't fictional, it's just that she didn't live in Evie's "prison", but in Larkhill, the concentration camp V was in. V specifically mentions this woman was the prisoner in cell number IV, and the notes were actual notes by her that V saved.
This is to further expand on the Rorschach is straight below, and it's pretty straight forward. Rorschach is really uncomfortable with expressing his sexuality. He finds normal sexuality to be so strange, that he can't even comprehend homosexuality. (This may seem redundant, but, yeah.)
- So we've officially WMG'd him as a repressed homosexual, a repressed bisexual, a repressed heterosexual, and an open (but disgusted) asexual. I think that about covers it.
- In any way, we can all agree that Rorschach is messed up!
- To me it's pretty clear that he's a repressed heterosexual. There are subtle clues in the graphic novel that he is actively repressing a heterosexual desire which he finds disgusting and doesn't know how to deal with. The things that make him uncomfortable are all related to femaleness and the female form.
- Regardless of his sexual orientation, he is certainly to some degree a misogynist, or at least extremely adverse to women. Given his upbringing, this is not completely out of the blue. And I don't think he'd know how to deal with any desire, whether for men, women, or carnival rides.
- I think Rorschach "cured" his misogyny by developing misanthropy.
- He objects to Laurie's mother's constume (calling her a "perfumed whore") and to Laurie's, because they are (very mildly) skimpy. But he has no problem with Doc Manhattan's big floppy blue dong. He cuts up Kitty Genovese's dress so it "doesn't look like a woman" anymore. He is fine with the Comedian's rape of Sally (even if he believes, as he probably does, that it was consensual, he still doesn't have a problem with the Comedian), nor does he object to Dan and Laurie's relationship (though I admit this last point assume he is aware of it). Throughout the novel, Rorschach applies a huge double standard in the way he judges sexual activity in men and in women - his reaction to sexual activity on the part of males is ambivalent at most. He seemingly has no problem with male sexuality. Why? I agree with the OP. Rorschach is heterosexual, but because of his mother's occupation and her abuse of him, he equates sexual behaviour with moral weakness and pain. So, he has repressed that side of his character. The criminals he treats most savagely are those who commit crimes of a sexual nature - Grice, the rapist he killed following the Keene Act, the man he met in the alleyway before his meeting with Moloch - because they remind him of his mother, and thus pain. Another example.
When he is having one of his monologues, he sees a naked woman close a pair of curtains in an upstairs flat, which triggers an extension of his monologue and earns his disapproval. He knows nothing about that woman. She could be a Catholic social worker having sex with her husband to try and make a baby for the first time since she married for all he knows. However, he assumes, simply because of her sexuality, that she is a bad person. By contrast, he never expresses any objection whatsoever to male sexuality, with the sole exceptions of rape and pedophillia, which are immoral and illegal and thus covered by his hatred of criminals and not the visceral anti-sexuality he displays towards women. He hates them because they remind him of his own heterosexuality and repressed sex drive, which reminds him of sex, which reminds him of the cruelty and neglect he suffered at his mother's hands.
- Ambiguous. A lot of Silver Age and Dark Age superhero stories explore the idea that the populace might reject heroes. Also, The Incredibles had real powers, while Dr. Manhattan is the only one with real powers here. Finally, we noted above that Watchmen could be a precursor to the End of Days. However, The Incredibles took place in 2004, when it came out. But if Watchmen is a precursor to the apocalypse, the world would be over by then.
- Nope. The Incredibles takes place in the 1960's.
- This seems believable. Most likely he already has his line for after the process is complete: "My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings!" said without irony.
- But if he could turn himself into a god, then why doesn't Ozy just skip the Squid-monster plan and turn himself into a god to keep the superpowers in check? And Dr Manhattan could stop him from turning into a god, providing a spannner in the works of that plan.
- The Silk Spectres can emit a powerful sonic cry.
- Ozymandias can attract or repel metals
- Then why didn't he repel the bullet instead of catching it after it shot through one of his hands?
- It didn't seem like it shot through either of his hands. In the panels after he catches it, the hand on his chest has no exit wound, and the other hand is holding the bullet. He probably slowed it down to catch the heroes off guard.
- Silhouette can control shadows.
- Mothman is really an alien from a moth-people planet.
- But he didn't have wings. They were fakes.
- Jon can give you cancer, and he'll turn into a car!
- Wait, where is the evidence for any of this besides the name of the characters? And Silk Spectre and Ozymandias don't even relate in name...
- This Troper's opinion was that the Silk Spectres must have some sort of healing factor, given that they constantly ran around in skimpy outfits and heels and don't have any significant scarring to show for it.
- There could be more to it than that, actually. It should be noted that in Watchmen, gay characters have a 100% mortality rate - Hooded Justice, the Silhouette, Moth Man, the Lesbian couple in New York. No gay character gets out of Watchmen alive and Rorschach is the only one of the active modern costumed heroes who dies. In addition to this, he is particularly fond of the Veidt perfume 'Nostalgia', which Veidt himself in one of the Easter Eggs says is deliberately marketed to homosexuals.
- Rorschach did hate all women as being whores due to his experiences with his mother. Due to his own feelings of betrayal from his mother during a period when he might have even had a Freudian attraction to her, he likely gave up on all women. He subconsciously became a gay but he also hated all immoral sexual activities (his mother was a whore) and so he repressed his homosexual tendencies.
- Actually, there is no evidence of Moth Man being gay, and he was still alive, albeit in an asylum. HJ could also easily have been straight.
- There is evidence for Moth Man being gay. Sally's interview with The Probe in September '76 states that "a couple of the guys" were gay, and that "they're both dead now. One died recently". Given the time of the interview, that was probably Moth Man. When Silk Spectre II saw Moth Man in the 70s, he was in very poor health.
- That only proves that Sally thought he was gay.
- I always assumed that the one who "died recently" was Captain Metropolis, who had been killed in a car accident.
- Except for the letter from Sally's agent that states that HJ and Captain Metropolis "act like an old married couple in public," Sally's acts as an alibi for HJ, and makes vague comments about HJ doing "rough stuff" with boys.
- Also, Moth Man is explicitly stated to be alive, once by Rorschach in the beginning of the comic when he's talking about how vigilantes never have peaceful lives, and Dan mentions in his paper about owls that he was sent to check up on Moth Man by Mason at some point in the 80s, meaning even if he was dead when Rorschach mentioned him, he still would have been alive when Silk Spectre gave that interview.
- Remember the scene where Rorschach gets back on Archimedes, and Nite Owl has to practically tear his hand free from the handshake? It's virtually identical to the scene where Nite Owl brings Laurie on board, and is one of the first overt signs of Dreiberg's feelings for her. I can't help but feel that the parallels are intentional, with the underlying message being that Rorschach's so thoroughly repressed, this is the only sign of affection he can give.
- That's a perfectly reasonable interpretation, although you could just as easily say that he's so thoroughly repressed about showing any kind of human emotion (other than violence) that it's the only way he can express any sense of camaraderie or platonic interpersonal affection, quite divorced from sexual longing.
- "What it was really about was like an embarrassing moment. It was like Rorschach, not really being very much of a social animal, didn't know quite how long to hold on when he shook somebody's hand. It was actually holding on too long. I'm sure we've all met people like that, who maybe stand too close to you, or speak too loudly or too softly, or who touch you inappropriately — not in a sexual way at all — but there's just something about how you deal with people in a social or an intimate situation, that if you're not practiced at it, you can easily just go wrong. I think this would particularly affect Dan, because Dan is very aware of that kind of thing. He's very embarrassed when he's around Laurie and very aware of the proprieties and politeness of everything. I think Rorschach is just uncertain about holding onto his hand for too long. You know, Dan was his friend, he wanted to like Rorschach, but he just felt uncomfortable. So I guess it's something to do with Rorschach being lonely and unpracticed in dealing with human beings." —Dave Gibbons
- There are hints that HJ is gay and maybe sadomasochistic when he rescues Sally from the Comedian's attempted rape- the Comedian taunts him, saying, "you like this kind of stuff, don't you?"
- Just because The Comedian implied it, doesn't mean it's true. The Comedian was a dick like that.
- It's implied that HJ and Captain M. were a couple, especially in the movie. Pause it at 1:35 and look to the far right.
- Actually, Rorschach used the cologne. The aftershave was what was marketed to the gay place. He emphasized that. Unless, of course, he was using aftershave in the second issue, then the point stands.
- It would probably be more of a wild guess to say that there's any aspect of Rorschach's life where he doesn't have serious issues.
- I really don't think this qualifies as a guess. It's pretty clear as early as Chapter 1 that Rorschach has some pretty severe sexual hangups. I mean, in his journal entries he lumps in sexual promiscuity with felonies like robbery and murder on the immorality scale. Numerous times.
- ...Which makes this troper wonder why nobody has yet considered that he could be so screwed up by all his Freudian Excuse baggage that he's flat-out asexual.
- Actually, despite my posting evidence for "Rorschach is gay" that's pretty much what I think is going on. Rorschach appears to be so turned off sex he never shows the slightest sign of being sexually interested in anything.
- Can you be hetero-phobic?
- Asexual and/or sex-phobic, sure.
- I buy phobic, but not asexual - he's just incapable of acting on, resolving, or enjoying his sexual urges. Note that when he puts on his "face" in the alley, he mentions how being fully Rorschach leaves him with distractions and pains, particularly without "lusts". This bit is written in a caption with a panel showing a "Nostalgia" poster with a woman in filmy lingerie. Another time, he gets distracted for a long moment watching a couple making out in a window.
- ...Which makes this troper wonder why nobody has yet considered that he could be so screwed up by all his Freudian Excuse baggage that he's flat-out asexual.
- He clearly has an Oedipal Complex that was betrayed by his mother (being a prostitute) which stunted his sexual development. Notice how assumes most women he comes in contact with to be whores and treats all whores with violence and incredible disrespect.
- If he was asexual, he wouldn't have had nearly as much problems with sex as he clearly did.
- Well, he's so sexually confused, he probably doesn't know what he is.
- That's certainly a...creative theory...
- It's called Wild Mass Guessing for a reason.
- Everything else was done. Alternatively, he's a rather masculine female crossdresser, and the Nite Owl Ho Yay is an attempt to avert the inversion of If It's You, It's Okay.
- This troper has been processing ideas for genderswapped!Rorschach for some time now (affectionately dubbed, as much as she'd let me, Girlschach) and things this particular WMG is made of win.
- I think I speak for everyone when I say that this WMG has gotten way out of hand even by TV Tropes laid-back standards.
- You think incorrectly. Again, see the name.
- They both keep diaries or journals which are read as narration in their scenes.
- There are many common characteristics: Their obsession with cleaning up the "filth" of the streets for instance.
- Jossed by the Before Watchmen: Rorschach comics, in which Rorschach takes a ride in Bickle's cab. Of course, YMMV as to how canonical that is.
- Nope. Take another look at the frames: Ozy's bleeding after the bullet hits.
- Which completely subverts the body suit theory. It actually went through one hand before he managed to catch it with the other.
- It went through his hand? Neither of them seem to have exit wounds...
- Okay, a lot of people are confused about the bullet scene. When I told my friend "Only Dr. Manhattan has powers," he replied that Ozymandias must have superpowers because he caught a bullet. And now we have a Wild Mass Guess that Ozzy just HAS to have a transparent magical shield in order to catch a bullet. This is all complete hooey and, no offense, you guys don't understand how guns and bullets behave. It's entirely possible that Ozzy has a layer of steel or something tough that could easily absorb the impact force of a bullet without causing injury. This is possible because forces come in pairs. The shooter experiences the same amount of force as the person being shot. Laurie's hand isn't injured when she fires the gun, because the force is spread throughout the gun itself, and its grips. So why can't Adrian also have something in his hand (a plate of steel would do fine) that would also spread out the impact of the bullet? I don't know what kind of gun Laurie was using but given that it was a revolver and the movie takes place in the 80's, it was PROBABLY a .38 special. And a .38 special bullet is easily stopped by a steel plate that is only a fraction of an inch thick. So, that's it. The fact that Veidt can stop a bullet with his hand is easily explained and it doesn't have to involve super powers. So there!
- Well, the fact that he could withstand the bullet is explained. Now how about his ability to put his hand in the right place fast enough to catch it on the plate?
- Decades of training and an absolutely perfect sense of timing.
- Think of monks and ninjas who catch arrows. Now, think of that with some Suspension of Disbelief thrown in, and you've got a guy who has trained a lot to catch a bullet, and does. Compare this to Nite Owl's wingless flying machine, and I'm more doubtful of Nite Owl.
- Nope. Take another look at the frames: Ozy's bleeding after the bullet hits.
- He can teleport a hostile group of rioters to their own homes, all at once. This implies incredibly fine control of his teleportation abilities.
- He can see into the future and the past; indeed, he does so continuously.
- He can easily teleport himself to other planets, possibly other star systems.
- He can be in multiple places at once.
- He can create large structures out of dust, and control their movement afterward.
- He can put up forcefields (Laurie's air-bubble on Mars).
- He can change his size.
- It's possible that he can only catch 50% of the missiles launched, assuming they came from different directions and some came in under radar. Yes, time is meaningless to Dr. Manhattan, but he's also a strong believer in fate. Simply because he knows what's going to happen doesn't mean he can change it.
- Alternatively, Doctor Manhattan was always shown to have been apathetic to the point of insanity. Perhaps, to him, the idea of a few puny humans launching missiles at each other was nothing and did not require his attention, so he might have said it so he wouldn't have to help as much as their strategy needed. Basically, he's saying, sort it out yourselves.
- Its possible that when it comes to radioactive materials, his abilities aren't as clear cut. After all, his teleportation and clairvoyance are shown to be disrupted by the presence of tacyons, and he outright states that he is unable to clearly perceive a certain time period, and attributes it to the presence of a powerful electromagnetic pulse (such as that caused by a nuclear blast). Alternatively, it could be that he would be unable to stop every missile because there would be too damn many! Afterall, in the real, Dr. Manhattan-less world, at the height of the Cold War the Soviet Union possessed upwards of 40,000 nuclear weapons, with yields up to 100 megatons (capable of destroying everything in a 2,000 mile radius).
- Or of course Manhattan was telling the truth. BECAUSE that is what he was going to tell the government.
- Couldn't he make a force feild that entirely surrounds the united states for a few hours, negating the effects of all of the nuclear weapons, and no matter how powerful or many their were, stopping them would be easy (since they wouldn't even explode)
- There is no reason to believe that he could. He never demonstrates power on that scale. Let's not confuse Manhattan with God.
- Its possible that when it comes to radioactive materials, his abilities aren't as clear cut. After all, his teleportation and clairvoyance are shown to be disrupted by the presence of tacyons, and he outright states that he is unable to clearly perceive a certain time period, and attributes it to the presence of a powerful electromagnetic pulse (such as that caused by a nuclear blast). Alternatively, it could be that he would be unable to stop every missile because there would be too damn many! Afterall, in the real, Dr. Manhattan-less world, at the height of the Cold War the Soviet Union possessed upwards of 40,000 nuclear weapons, with yields up to 100 megatons (capable of destroying everything in a 2,000 mile radius).
- Look, in this world it is unlikely that SALT (Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty) was ever passed because the US thought "hey we have an omnipotent deity" so the USSR could build as many nukes as it wanted, knowing full well it could never hope to match Dr. Manhattan's strength. In the original timeline, the US built nuclear weapons that could have as many as 20 warheads per missile so feasibly it could've happened in this universe to the Soviet Union. Even if the USSR had 3,000 missiles, that amounts to 60,000 warheads all flying from different directions. Dr. Manhattan couldn't possibly deal with that many moving problems all at the same time.
- Because a human body, complete with a brain and nervous system, and a monstrous floating tower made of gears are way easier to manipulate than missiles headed from point A to point B (which he can erase from existance by looking at them).
- And you know this from your vast experience manipulating matter and energy at the quantum level? It could simply be that his power has limits we aren't aware of, because they weren't fully explained.
- Here's an idea: Dr. Manhattan could only stop 50% of the nukes launched because that's all he saw himself intercepting in a hypothetical nuclear future. He could stop all of them hypothetically—but he didn't see himself stopping all of them, so he can't. He really is a slave to time, regardless of his godlike abilities, not unlike the Tralfamadorians of Slaughterhouse Five.
- Maybe, but remember, he was speaking hypothetically. In reality, there is no time where Dr. Manhattan would have to stop any nuclear missiles, because war has been averted. So combine all of the above theories, and it makes sense that he said what he did.
- Because a human body, complete with a brain and nervous system, and a monstrous floating tower made of gears are way easier to manipulate than missiles headed from point A to point B (which he can erase from existance by looking at them).
- So like. . .God's an overgrown, emotionally detached smurf?
- That'd explain a lot, wouldn't it?
- My God, this troper just thought he'd come up with that on his own! He created an alternate universe where the costumed vigilantes never came forward, just to see what would happen for the hell of it.
- Wrong! Manhattan says that he's going to create life in a far off galaxy. Clearly he created Star Wars.
- Alternatively, the Watchmen Universe is the one Star Wars is set in. After a long time, in a galaxy far, far away, Dr. Manhattan created our galaxy.
- It could be that our galaxy is the far-off one he was talking about, and somewhere a zillion light-years away is the original Earth in the original galaxy. How would we know?
- But Dr. M's interest in life and humanity got rekindled because he was reminded that there's so much miraculous randomness to the genetic lottery of conception. Why would he create a near-perfect duplicate of the world he came from (minus a few costumed heroes and himself), if it's the marvels of chance that engage his interest? Better to re-start the clock with bacteria, or at least Homo habilis, and wait to see what happens the second time around.
- Perhaps we're one of his many Earths, and this one was done to see what would happen in a world where heroes and himself never came to be, to see the randomness of that.
- Wrong! Manhattan says that he's going to create life in a far off galaxy. Clearly he created Star Wars.
- The likelihood of him finding an almost identical Earth and creating a timeline that was identical for literally billions of years until one century where he averts one or two minor coincidences just to mess with us? Doubtful. The likelihood of him doing all that in a solar system that is identical (remember, in Watchmen they traveled to Mars)? Impossible.
- This is somewhat like the planned Terry Gillam treatment for the film. There, Roarschach's journal is published, Ozy's plan is exposed, nuclear war ensues. Dr Manhattan reboots the world to a world where vigilante impact on history is removed - our world!
- How about this: Doctor Manhattan created the universe All-Star Superman takes place in. Within that universe, Superman created our Earth. So Doctor Manhattan is our Earth's grandfather.
- Let's expand this theory further... maybe Dr. Manhattan didn't directly kill Rorschach, but he instead teleported him to somewhere far away in the UK (The "I strongly doubt he'll reach civilization" quote), and Rorschach wandered the land aimlessly until the nuclear war. He got arrested by the Norsefire Party for being not european and he got sent to the Larkhill concentration camp, where he was subjected to mysterious experiments... Valerie's letter, along with his severe traumatization by the war, Ozymandias' (failed) plot, and the experiments made him value invididual freedom much more and he became an anarchist. When he blew up his cell, he was no longer Kovacs, or Rorschach... he was V now. Yes, he would be around 57 years old in 1997, but hey, he's got superpowers now.
- But V was far more subtle than Rorschach ever was. Plus V takes interest in Evey and, even if it is detached and non sexual, it is nowhere near the perverse hatred of women that Rorschach has. V is polite and charming whereas Rorschach would denounce her as a whore in a second.
- The fact that Valerie "saved" him might well have "cured" him
- "Rorschach would denounce her as a whore in a second." Gee, I wonder why.
- Forget subtlety, misogyny, etc. Can any of you imagine Rorschach singing showtunes etc? (Hrrm. Of course you can. Silly me.)
- But V was far more subtle than Rorschach ever was. Plus V takes interest in Evey and, even if it is detached and non sexual, it is nowhere near the perverse hatred of women that Rorschach has. V is polite and charming whereas Rorschach would denounce her as a whore in a second.
- Actually, Ozymandias's "peace" directly lead to World War 3. You see, the Japanese attempted to create psychic super-soldiers to fight off the invading aliens. But then there was an accident...
- And later some ''actual'' alien invaders came...
- Seriously, now, there's still indications that it might have turned out that way. Rorschach may not have known the whole plot when he wrote his final journal, and he may not be actually taken seriously, and the newspaper guy may have gone with a different story, but you never know...
- It was mentioned in a police file that among Rorschach's personal effects was a notebook, whose pages were "filled with what is either an elaborate cipher or handwriting too cramped and eccentric to be legible". So ultimately, it's a long shot if Rorschach ever made a difference.
- Or perhaps the peace didn't last simply because humans don't like World Peace and found new reasons to fight. And Ozymandias is an idiot who overestimated the human race.
- That isn't really guessing. Dr. Manhattan outright tells him this before leaving the planet.
- "My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" It wasn't a coincidence that Ozymandias was named after a poem which expresses the futility of trying to create something which will last forever.
- Whatever, the peace was never meant to last, 'cause people isn't made for World Peace. They screw it quickly for the first excuse the got
- The other thing to consider is that only one alien appears- after a few years (decades?) of fear, people might think there won't be any more coming- and hey, it'd be a shame to waste all these new weapons we've researched!
- Sure is cynical in here...
- Well, let's look at history. Whenever the opposing nations of the world have banded together to fight a common enemy, has it resulted in a lasting peace?
- That doesn't have to mean that the peace will fall apart straight away, just that every golden age eventually ends. It's fatalistic, but not necessarily in the short term.
- Planet of the Apes is the far future of the Watchmen world. Dr. Manhattan is the reason why the astronauts had all that technology in 1972.
- Ozzy also was the World's Smartest Man, and had the original result to study, so he had a bit of an advantage. Remember, he was also the first to invent the teleporter, the first to invent genetic engineering, etc.
- The odds may be a lot higher than a million to one. Throw the whole population of the planet in, and you could still get nothing. Or ten times that many. Or ten galaxies' worth. Randomness is like that.
- On the note of the Russians throwing random gulaggers into the IF machine, there's a pretty simple reason why they wouldn't — a prisoner given godlike power's first act would most likely be to annihilate his jailers. Of course, they may have tried throwing in random party members instead...
- The Soviets have already had an experience with a Party Member with unlimited powers (circa 1927-1953). It was not a good one.
- On an interesting note: I read one very early draft of a "Watchmen" movie script where Ozymandias' plan was to make a tiny hole in the fabric of space-time to assassinate Osterman before he got disintigrated, eliminating the world's only superhero and turning the Watchmen reality into our reality. This somehow transports Laurie, Dan, and Rorschach to the newspaper stand in Times Square, where the comic-book-reading kid ID's them as "the goddamned Watchmen!"...
- Maybe his hard work in keeping an eye out for this sort of phenomenon is why he has some limitations - why he is so distracted and why he knows he couldn't destroy ALL the missles in a nuclear attack. He's so paranoid he's always keeping an eye on the "limbo" where he formed.
- Osterman makes a comment that his "resurrection" is really as simple as putting the pieces together in the right order — a perspective he has because he had trained as a watch repairman. It's entirely likely that this detail escaped the Soviets, and their experiments seemingly failed not because they didn't create their own potential Doctors Manhattan, but because their candidates survived but couldn't reconstitute themselves.
- The Golden Age Heroes exist in Back to the Future verse as well, but simply fell out of favor in the 50s and there was no "Silver Age". However, the temporal paradox caused by old Biff giving young Biff the Almanac caused a flaw in reality which allowed Osterman (who would have other wise died) to come back as Manhattan, thus inspiring a new generation. The Temporal Paradox of Marty "coming back from the future" fixes this, and allows Osterman to die.
- The newspaper from BTTF 2 mentioning Nixon's fifth term says that Nixon "vows to end the Vietnam war by 1985", which means this is not the case.
- Or, alternately, the word never came into use for gay women, as it is believed that it would be disrespect to the Greeks who fought with the 300 Spartans...
- I always thought it was because the word became associated with hate crimes.
- Or, running with the "Veidt is gay" theory below—Veidt's hardly hiding it— the pervasive use of "gay" became more common regardless of gender with Adrian's influence. Having the world's smartest man be physically formidable, making a focused effort to come across as powerful and all-American as well as ridiculously rich, and very, very gay has to do something for the GLBT community, for good or ill. Probably horribly enrage people like the folks at the New Frontiersman (more) but if there was never so much of a distinction in the first place...
- Confirmed by the events of Real Life.
- And sheer luck.
- So the real wild theory is...
- Being confirmed by real life does not prove anything. In real life there were no superheroes, and no American God. These factors would have had a massive effect on the politics of the time, and the supplementary information given to us seems to suggest that nuclear war was highly probable.
- That's not a WMG, it's canon.
- Maybe. Having good friends with Aspergers myself, he seems not messed up where he should be, and messed up where he shouldn't be. A lot of the description fits, though. Note that while Aspies often don't understand people, they * do* crave social interaction like the rest of us. Of course, Rorschach's stupidly depresssing past could've easily beaten that out've him.
- I agree with the above- most people with Asperger's are fairly normal, but then again, most aspies didn't grow up like Rorschach did.
- I'm sorry for Rorschach, but he can't be an aspie. He survives in the streets on his own. He's an outlaw wanted by the cops. He fights crime with his bare fists. All at once. And somehow manages to get away with it. For years. This is not very Asperger-like. A true aspie would have given up the very first week. If somebody deserves to be called an aspie, this is Doctor Manhattan. Doc has an immense talent, but lacks of the ability, the willpower and the motivation to put his gifts at good use. He spends his time in a world of his own, and dislike interferences. He barely cares about anything outside his little sphere of interests. He leads a life of reclusion and seems happy about it. He's a genius dealing with unanimated things which work in a simple, logical pattern (clocks, neutrines & the likewise). But he sucks when it comes to relating with pesky emo talking primates. He just doesn't get people's feelings, and people fails to get what's in his head. In spite of his apathy, he has a crush for a perky girl (or that was me?). He's a nice guy who does what he's told but shows no enthusiasm nor initiative. He respects autority and wouldn't question an order... usually, but he doesn't like being questioned himself. When he says "enough", he means it: he doesn't feel like wasting time in discussions. He feels bad about people dying because of him. But if there is somebody else doing the killing... of course it's not his business. Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not an expert), but an aspie is like Doctor Manhattan without the super-powers. Rostcharch is not like Doctor Manhattan. Ergo, Rorschach can't be an aspie.
- Aspies are the highest function autists around, so your arguement is moot.
- Not always, it varies by degree— some cases of Aspergers' are worse than others.
- Or alternately, Doctor Manhattan is a relatively well adjusted person with Asperger's, and has learned to function- barely, and not well, but prior to his 'accident' does just fine. Rorschach is what he might have been had life really screwed him over- abusive home, awful childhood, and on and on and on. DM's life may not have been peaches and partying but compared to Rorschach's... (Maybe they function at different levels?) Diagnosing Rorschach takes some dot-connecting but Doctor Manhattan-as-aspie makes good-ish sense to me...
- Even more alternatively, his disconnection comes from the lack of any bodily function, which will eventually lead to him becoming nothing more than a self aware natural phenomenon...
- I don't know, as a troper with a family member who has aspergers, I think that Rorschach could easily do all that, because you say that he is motivated, and that an aspie couldn't be motivated. But my brother, who has aspergers, is very motivated. I could well believe that rorschach has aspergers.
- Mac Phisto has Asperger Syndrome. He does not like the term "Aspie". Not that he feels victimized — he just thinks it sounds stupid. That being said, while he does believe that Rorschach fell somewhere between Autism and Anti Social Personality Disorder, he did not have A.S. Doctor Manhattan, on the other hand, did not have A.S — but Alan Moore certainly gave him the personality traits of someone who did.
- I agree with the above- most people with Asperger's are fairly normal, but then again, most aspies didn't grow up like Rorschach did.
- Didn't Rorschach go with social interaction with Nite Owl early on? I am more inclined that to believe Rorschach was raised as a "special little snowflake" that snapped here and there leaving him with no social skills growing up. That one murder case just further broke him as a person. So I think his similarities to having Aspberger's is in the same vein as a shark and dolphin looking similar. Different reasons, same effect.
- Raised as a "special little snowflake"? By whom? By his mother, who beat him and told him that she should've aborted him? By the Charlton Home? Abusive mother followed by institution does not add up to "special little snowflake".
- There are other Autistic Spectrum Disorders. Rorscach might have one that isn't Aspergers. Someone who cares more than me should check sometime, one might fit.
- I agree with this one, but, as a sufferer of mild Asperger's Syndrome, I object to the term "aspie". That's like calling someone with downs syndrome a "retard". I thought we'd moved out of the madhouse era as a society.
- As another suffer of mild Asperger's, I agree. I much prefer "social failures". Makes the other AS people squirm.
- Really? I find it a term of pride.
- I agree with this one, but, as a sufferer of mild Asperger's Syndrome, I object to the term "aspie". That's like calling someone with downs syndrome a "retard". I thought we'd moved out of the madhouse era as a society.
- I find it funny how we're all judging aspies without actually having it. I have Aspergers and I can tell you that Rorscach and Dr. Manhattan are A LOT more screwed up than a normal aspie would be. Also everyone seems to forget that they both had gone through events that would mess anyone up.
- I believe the intent was "Asperger's plus a ton of other issues on top of it." I'm sure we're all aware that Asperger's doesn't make people that disturbed without other issues getting involved.
- It's a spectrum disorder, there is no "normal" level as it covers many levels of disfunction. But neither of them really display Asperger's symptoms. (I have it badly enough to be on permanent disability, but I've seen much worse cases, and they don't resemble any of the Watchmen characters.)
- Do Rorschach and Dr. Manhattan really need disorders to explain their behavior? Rorschach had a childhood that would mess up anybody. Dr. Manhattan has trouble thinking like other people because of his superpowers; he doesn't seem to have a problem with this before his accident. If they had Asperger's Syndrome, that really wouldn't be the worst of their problems.
- Explain them, no. Not everything that Rorschach or Dr. Manhattan does really has to have anything to do with Asperger's Syndrome. However, they do show some of the symptoms and the description does possibly apply to them. Moreover, their screwed-up lives may be a cause rather than an effect of Asperger's Syndrome, or cause and effect could be a two-way street.
- The case for Dr. Manhattan's having A.S. does strike me as considerably weaker than Rorschach's, since Jon Osterman's life before having superpowers is shown to have been that of a fairly ordinary if somewhat shy and nerdy scientist. However, the effect his superpowers had on his perspective could well have induced something similar to having Asperger's; just as some claim we're all aspies when we're on the internet (because of the reduced capacity for giving and receiving social cues), maybe Manhattan isn't inherently an aspie, but behaves like one due to the unique way his powers socially isolate him.
- As for Rorschach, how much of his personality is inherent and how much of it came from his traumatic upbringing is always in question, but he does show a lot more of the obvious Asperger's symptoms. The awkward handshake with Daniel Dreiberg is particularly telling: he just plain missed the social cue that ten seconds or so is enough and then he should stop shaking hands with his friend. Rorschach also has a lot of trouble with simple common courtesies (such as answering the rhetorical greetings of others, and greeting his friends when they come to break him out of prison), though he's hardly lacking in compassion; Daniel's girlfriend Laurie in particular finds his odd behaviors very rude and offputting, though Daniel sees through this to Rorschach's better qualities and tries to tell her about them. Rorschach also displays a rather single-minded devotion to his work as a costumed hero, typical of an Aspergerish obsession. As Daniel Dreiberg mentions at one point, back when they were regular partners, Rorschach was both a brilliant tactician and very unpredictable although he believes "that mask has eaten his brains" too. All the fighting Rorschach does later demonstrates he still is very talented at this. One could tentatively identify any number of other personality disorders in him, but these symptoms do fit Asperger's Syndrome particularly well.
- Explain them, no. Not everything that Rorschach or Dr. Manhattan does really has to have anything to do with Asperger's Syndrome. However, they do show some of the symptoms and the description does possibly apply to them. Moreover, their screwed-up lives may be a cause rather than an effect of Asperger's Syndrome, or cause and effect could be a two-way street.
- I'm not sure, but I think it's established that Rorschach doesn't HAVE facial expressions.
- He speaks in a really creepy monotone at all times, and without his real face he seems to be expressionless— but with it on, who can tell? He might not raise his eyebrows a lot, or let his mouth fall open, but it has to be reacting to something.
- I think the reason he doesn't have facial expressions is because since the mask "is" his face, when he doesn't have it on, he perceives himself as not having the capability or need to express emotions, since the people he's talking to are just seeing his "mask."
- Although I can't seem to find it now, I remember once visiting a website where all of Rorschach's mask patterns where listed. Most of them corresponded to Rorschach's emotional state at the time. If memory serves, this is why his mask looks exactly the same when he discovers that Jacobi is dead as when he realizes that the abducted child was killed, chopped up and fed to the two dogs. In both cases, he was clearly shocked/surprised.
- Two blot patterns repeat themselves noticeably: The shocked one mentioned by the troper above, and the "Never compromise" pattern he makes when he says that phrase in different points of the story.
- So when he gets what looks like a big goofy smile on his face after shaking hands with Nite Owl...
- The most obvious case this troper noticed was in the film just before Rorschach leaves Karnak. The mask shifts so that there's a long streak of black from his eyes down his cheeks. She only noticed on the second viewing, but she's now quite sure Rorschach was crying.
- Actually, it's blatantly stated in this video from the development team that the mask changes to reflect his emotions, and they have about fifteen "set patterns" taken directly from the comic that they even defined as expressions. So, in this case, the WMG is right.
- "We're all puppets, Laurie. I'm just a puppet who can see the strings."
- Wait. Doctor Manhattan writes Fan Fiction?
- And I assume he's somewhat on friendly terms with Deadpool then?
- He can see into the future and the past; indeed, he does so continuously.
- He can easily teleport himself to other planets, possibly other star systems.
- He can be in multiple places at once.
- Uh, I'm pretty sure that was deliberate on his part. He DID do it 35 Minutes Ago.
- In Exodus the Pharoh is just called Pharoh, not Ramses II, so Ramses did not lose to God. For that matter, Ozymandias did lose to God, Doctor Manhattan defeated him. As for his choice in name, it could be an attempt at irony. Another possibility is that he liked Alexander the Great (who loved Greek culture) so, in respect for his former hero, chose the Greek form of his new hero's name. We also do not know how famous Percy Bysshe Shelley's poem is in Watchmen. His password could have been all part of the plan.
- Ozymandias didn't lose to God, he beat him three times. He got Dr. Manhattan to exile himself, blew him up (something no one else ever did), and made world peace while he was gone.
- Two problems with your thoughts. One, 136 is entry level genius intellect according to scientists so 140 would qualify him as genius. Two, he accomplished genetic engineering (Bubastis), successfully blew up a god (even if he did reassemble himself), developed teleportation technology, and predicted the Keene Act years before it was even a discussion.
- Read again. The WMG isn't about if Veidt is a genius, it's about if he's The World's Smartest Man.
- "Technically genius" may look good on a business card or get you into Mensa, but it ain't "incredible" by any stretch— it's the bare minimum on an arbitrary number scale. And he did none of those things by himself except predicting public disillusionment with vigilantes (not a fantastic accomplishment, just Genre Savvy), he had a huge research company and Manhattan himself helping out. None of that makes him anything close to "The World's Smartest Man".
- I doubt there's many other people in the world who can attentively watch dozens of television stations at once while simultaneously reflecting on the sociological implications of the programs and considering stock options or dictating philosophical discourses.
- I've got an IQ of 142, and from where I'm standing he still comes off way smarter than anything I'm capable of.
- Please, when you mention someone's IQ, say which standars deviation are you using.
- Two problems with your thoughts. One, 136 is entry level genius intellect according to scientists so 140 would qualify him as genius. Two, he accomplished genetic engineering (Bubastis), successfully blew up a god (even if he did reassemble himself), developed teleportation technology, and predicted the Keene Act years before it was even a discussion.
- Considering that the Soul Calibur was created out of Soul Edge, it means he initially had lost all goodness. And as of Soul Calibur 4 its more "order sword and chaos sword" than good or evil, so he's lost all sense of human morality over time...
- I think you're probably right. He expresses extreme discomfort around women even at a young age, and can't even bear to be around women's clothing at sixteen. Maybe he just really really needed to get laid.
- Somehow, I think having sex would just make it worse. He'd probably scrub himself afterwards with a brillo pad until he scoured all his skin off.
- What would've happened to the woman? Would she "no longer have a woman's shape" by the time he was done?
- I doubt Rorschach would be very active in the sack. He'd probably be paralyzed with fear during the process.
- Given that his default reaction to anything he doesn't like is violence, it almost certainly would not end well. And considering his personal hygiene and "ugliness", any woman who would sleep with him would probably be exactly the type to push his Berserk Button.
- Not neccessarily. She sees sex as the ultimate expression of love, give her a major savior complex, put her in a situation where she gets a glimpse of Rorschach's utter woobie side, add a too-strong belief in Love Redeems... No idea how Rorschach would react to all of that, but it is a scenario where a nonpromiscuous girl would be willing to sleep with him.
Now I wish I could write this. - Rorschach would kill her violently.
- Booze. Lots and lots of booze. Problem solved!
- Is it weird that I have an image of Rorschach waking up with a hangover and looking over at the person he was sleeping and giving out a girlish EWWWWW! While rushing to take a shower
- I think you're probably right. He expresses extreme discomfort around women even at a young age, and can't even bear to be around women's clothing at sixteen. Maybe he just really really needed to get laid.
- Alternatively, going on the "Dan and Adrian are related" WMG, Dan is already blonde.
- Ozy might have offered to use his genetic engineering skills to alter their hair genes or something. It would help them stay incognito, which is what both of them wanted.
- One of the technologies created by Veidt and Manhattan was a much more convenient and comfortable hair dyeing system.
- And then they'll both be shot in an alleyway in front of their son? Who then discovers the basement full of Nite Owl/Bat gadgets and black Comedienne body armor and masks and decides to use them along with the money from his father's company, despite the police hunting him when he does?
- No, no. Laurie and Dan will have a falling out, and she'll swear to ruin his life to get revenge. Of course, like her mother, she'll just have her son live out her dreams for her. With a slight change to the super alias, of course.
- Better: Dan had developed a hovorboard, painted his armor green and added an aweseome helmet...! If they have kids, they're going to be exquisitely messed up, but would we expect anything less from a Deconstructor Fleet tale?
- Like Batman isn't exquisitely messed up? I'm telling you, man. The way Dan is totally watered-down and wishy-washy when he isn't being Nite Owl? His talent for building gadgets and naming them weird? Laurie's ruthless streak and desire to be independent, anonymous, and in control with her superheroics? Dammit, guys. NITE OWL HAS A GODDAMN NOT-BATCOMPUTER IN HIS NOT-BATPLANE.
- Now that the movie is out: This is exactly right!
- I don't know whether to be happy or upset that I'm right, especially since I haven't seen it yet!
- Then why did you read the spoilers? Spoilers Always Spoil! (Also, the "blue flames" in the film are just a teleportation signature, so you got the right answer for the wrong reason.
- I don't know whether to be happy or upset that I'm right, especially since I haven't seen it yet!
- Unless the entire story is part of his delusion, this makes little sense. From what we know of the World of Watchmen, there seem to be massive differences between said world and are own. One of these is Doctor Manhattan. His existence has pushed the Soviets into a conner, and they only have two options. One option is to submit to the United States, the second is to go out in a blaze of glory. It seems that they may choose option two. As for the alien having human DNA, it does not seem likely. The explotion was not the result of TNT, or a normal explosive, it was the effect of having one's atoms scrambled and re-arranged. One could assume that such an event might severally damage the DNA of the effected. So the DNA might not look all too human. The death of the alien could be seen as the invaders not yet prepared enough to take out earth, which would give people hope. The lack of invasion is a greater problem, but according to Ozymandias, he will be manipulated the world by then. It should also be noted that if there is one psychic, then there might be more. Rorschach's journal was not part of the plan, so it should not really count. It was an unprediactable variable. It should also be noted that his journal is full of such insanity that no one would believe anything in it by the time they got to the end. Also, the Newspaper it is printed in does not suggest much confidence, few seem to take it seriously.
- But that's the thing, the story depends on people doing something completely illogical. There IS no real reason, at all, for the Soviets to ever think they could "go out in a blaze of glory". Realistically, Dr. Manhattan would be impossible to stop. He can reproduce himself at least four times, as we have seen him do this. If one of him can hold off more than 50% of their missiles, then four should be able to defeat all of them. And that assumes all the nukes are missiles, since planes would be vastly eaiser to shoot down for a teleporter who can kill with a thought, and tactical nuclear weapons would not "destroy" the US or even annoy Manhattan. More so, the alien's DNA would have to at least be someone human in nature by virtue of the fact it is, at heart, a human being turned into a giant monster...it would still have human blood type, human bodily chemicals, things that havn't evolved in other races on Earth let alone in another star system. The existence of even one psychic is really bizarre, as no one on Earth knew but Ozy, but logic dictates that the existence of other psychic would only make it worse...presumably the quality is genetic in nature, and scientists would then be able to determine it's origin as terrestrial as it would have evolved from some other human genetic mutation, by definition, as the psychics are human. And all the massive problems with "manipulating the world" into believing the invasion is on not withstanding, it would still never hold together under any kind of objective scrutiny: Where are the other aliens? How did it get here? Why did it die instantly? Why have no more appeared? You can manipulate the world but even then you can't manipulate logic. If anything like real world logic applies to the Watchmen universe then Ozy's plan would fall apart in weeks, not even months. Rorschach's journals would only be the nail in the coffin...
- Ozymandias does specifically mention the possibility of "accidental" nuclear war (like the one Stanislave Petrov narrowly averted, for example), and also the second order environmental consequences of being on a permanent cold war footing. His argument is not that there will inevitably be a war, but that it's quite likely that there will, and even if there isn't, the current situation is not a sustainable one.
- But that's the thing, the story depends on people doing something completely illogical. There IS no real reason, at all, for the Soviets to ever think they could "go out in a blaze of glory". Realistically, Dr. Manhattan would be impossible to stop. He can reproduce himself at least four times, as we have seen him do this. If one of him can hold off more than 50% of their missiles, then four should be able to defeat all of them. And that assumes all the nukes are missiles, since planes would be vastly eaiser to shoot down for a teleporter who can kill with a thought, and tactical nuclear weapons would not "destroy" the US or even annoy Manhattan. More so, the alien's DNA would have to at least be someone human in nature by virtue of the fact it is, at heart, a human being turned into a giant monster...it would still have human blood type, human bodily chemicals, things that havn't evolved in other races on Earth let alone in another star system. The existence of even one psychic is really bizarre, as no one on Earth knew but Ozy, but logic dictates that the existence of other psychic would only make it worse...presumably the quality is genetic in nature, and scientists would then be able to determine it's origin as terrestrial as it would have evolved from some other human genetic mutation, by definition, as the psychics are human. And all the massive problems with "manipulating the world" into believing the invasion is on not withstanding, it would still never hold together under any kind of objective scrutiny: Where are the other aliens? How did it get here? Why did it die instantly? Why have no more appeared? You can manipulate the world but even then you can't manipulate logic. If anything like real world logic applies to the Watchmen universe then Ozy's plan would fall apart in weeks, not even months. Rorschach's journals would only be the nail in the coffin...
- I seem to remember there being something about the Emperor being every important historical figure ever...
- Ozymandias certainly thinks he's every great historical figure ever...
- This makes even more sense considering that he's securing humanities future by making man stop hating and fearing his fellow man.....and start hating and fearing aliens with psychic powers.
- He has connections with the U.S. government and the White House, making them a puppet government, and the President a figurehead.
- Not a WMG.
- The alive part is.
- Jossed, if you take Before Watchmen as canon.
- That is actually very intruiguing... I just figured (in the comic) he wore shades all the time because it was stylish and because it reminded him of his time as a masked superhero.
- I just figured he was nearsighted and wearing prescription lenses.
- Problem: Moloch's recollection of the Comedian is in keeping with Adrian's story.
Dan shows his knowledge of Greek and Egyptian history by not only knowing the Greek name of Ozymandias, but worshiping the symbol of birds in "Blood from the Shoulder of Pallas," where the owl sits at the right shoulder of Athena, goddess of craft, war, wisdom and philosophy, areas that Ozymandias excels in, with the owl being the right hand attendant, intelligence gatherer, and spy. Dan has surveillance equipment he looks at apprehensively in Chapter VII, which could report back to Adrian. Dan's love for Greek and Egyptian mythology is how he respects Ozymandias, the man who believes he's the Greek who conquered Egypt to unite their culture. Dan mentions Athena on the face of Greek coins, a likely reference to coins in the eyes of the dead used to cross the river Styx, making Athena/Ozymandias a guide from this world to the next.
Odd is his observation that modern people look at a hawk scientifically while "the Egyptians once saw Horus and the burning eye of holy vengeance incarnate," and that we need to "transform our mere sightings into genuine visions" to be true passion. Dan respects the Eye of Horus, the eye of the hawk/falcon, representing the analytical mind of letters, numbers, thoughts and senses when on the face's right side. When the detective "looks ahead" at the calendar in Dan's house, he sees a hawk attacking its prey, a clue to Dan's identity that he keeps hidden. Horus, the god of the sky, has the head of a hawk/falcon, which is the rightmost statue in Ozymandias' office, opposite the leftmost statue off panel, which corresponds to The Comedian and the devil costume.
Rorschach corresponds to the center statue, the jackal headed Anubis, who brings people to the afterlife and measures the worthiness of the dead. Rorschach wears the inkblot symbol and sees the dog in an inkblot, making the dog face his symbol, and analyzes Anubis in terms of watching over the dead. As Anubis is the brother of Horus, Rorschach is the spiritual brother to Nite Owl, and Nite Owl can't kill Rorschach, but needs to escort him to Karnak, Adrian's "tomb" to die a symbolic death and be reborn in the new world, avoiding Alexander's literal death, accompanied by three associates who die before Adrian walks into Karnak, as three men escort Alexander's chariot in the painting, three gods escort Adrian to the next world, and three heroes die for him, though one has his conscience and identity die to spare his mortality and live on in the next world with Adrian. Alan Moore does this kind of thing using myths and symbolic meaning all the time, in Promethea for example, so yeah.
Ozymandias takes advantage of this racist attitude by calling his rivals Nazis to further villainize them, as he calls The Comedian a Nazi to see if Rorschach agrees, and the Pioneer Publishing office is vandalized with Swastika and Sieg Heil graffiti, likely by competitor Nova Express, owned by Triangle Incorporated, a Veidt subsidiary. The New Frontiersman retaliates by calling Nova Express a Communist anti-American publication, but its fringe views will hardly make a dent in the media, though people already have anti-gay, anti-porn, anti-liberal, and anti-foreign sentiment, which Ozymandias uses by misdirecting the public's fear on each other instead of on him, and gets away with using parts of these ideologies to further his business goals, promoting the human perfection ideal of the Nazis and the societal utopia of Communism justified at any cost, without being called a Communist or Nazi, by dedicating Capitalist resources to sell products based on responses to these fears as a form of mass comfort.
After the attack on New York, Ozymandias gets to clean out old businesses, replacing the Gunga Diner with a Russian restaurant in hopes of new pro-Russian attitudes, while people alleviate their fears by associating brand names like Nostalgia and Millenium with true love. Ozymandias gets to run his Capitalist empire, pacifying the world in consumerism, and is allowed to by having his sole opposition, costumed heroes, comply with him and not interfere. Ozymandias believes he's conquering the evils of the world by controlling and manipulating prejudice, and assures Dan Dreiberg he won't be persecuted in his new world order once Dan takes on his new identity, and Dan agrees.
- Probably isn't Rorschach's father. HJ is gay, after all.
- Ambiguous. It's entirely possible Hooded Justice is straight, and Mothman or Captain Metropolis or Dollar Bill are gay. We're never told straight out that anyone is gay.
Hollis knows which of his friends and associates have become heroes and villains, why someone became a hero or villain if they aren't giving the real reason, which costumes have been traded to keep identities alive, what real names are behind which made up alter egos, where someone is from, whose last name isn't what they claim it is, who is secretly related to whom, who has had intimate relationships with whom, what secret opinions or ideology is whose, what became of heroes reported dead or missing, what secret backstories do all the minor villains have, what professional, romantic, or familial relationships any of the briefly seen civilians may or may not have with anyone, and anything else we just don't know.
- I don't think Dr. Manhattan would be as big of a jerkass as Q (on purpose).
- Maybe he's all the Q's? Like, he split his consciousness when he realized that no 1 being should hold so much power, or something like that.
- And the part of him that remembered the Comedian's jerkassery became the Q that bugs Picard et al.
- Maybe he's all the Q's? Like, he split his consciousness when he realized that no 1 being should hold so much power, or something like that.
- Probably Jossed by the flashback to the dinner in The Comedian's honor. One of the people Eddie's talking to says he's "all right. Not giving everybody the creeps like goddamned Mr. Spock over there". Unless Dr. Manhattan liked Star Trek so much he decided to create a universe exactly like it.
- This troper attributed the suits to a)it being The '80s, and/or b)Oz being an idiomatic pimp. It's worth pointing out that at the Antarctic base has a lot of pyramids and general pointyness.
- Matthew Goode, the actor for the film version also supports the concept that Ozymandias is a homosexual, and seems to believe Rorschach has suppressed homosexual desires towards him.
- Comic Ozymandias is gay, too. Rorschach comments "Possibly homosexual? Must remember to investigate."
- Rorschach is a sociopathic, homophobic nutjob. Ozymandias never expressed affection for anything other than himself or Bubastis.
- Besides, if he were gay you'd think those three chubby servants of his would be hotter.
- You're crazy. Ozymandias is the pinnacle of alpha manliness.
- Manly =/= heterosexual. Perhaps even Ozymandias doesn't know what he is vis-á-vis sexual attraction, or doesn't think it's consequential enough to waste time on.
- Really, in the comic Ozymandias could be gay or straight, since sex and romance are so irrelevant to what we see of him. If the movie version isn't actually gay he was made awfully "swishy," that is effeminate and stereotypically "gay looking." At the same time, (with unfortunate implications) he became overtly sinister and seemed more evil. And he picked up a vaguely European accent. And grew a big black handlebar mustache. (Okay, that last bit isn't true.)
- His actor's European. That covers all but the mustache.
- Well, he did say that he tried to model himself after Alexander, and Alexander did have a male lover he was very attached to. Which was fairly common for that time period.
- Why can I see this leading to some damn good fic? (Perhaps because in my mind Veidt is pretty much a straightforward asexual.) Him trying to get his Alexander on, mostly out of a desire to have someone adequate for the job of being his Hephaestion. And hey, some asexuals enjoy porn.
- Watch the folder names when Dan is going through Ozy's computer. One of them says boys. Figure that one out.
- This troper attributed the suits to a)it being The '80s, and/or b)Oz being an idiomatic pimp. It's worth pointing out that at the Antarctic base has a lot of pyramids and general pointyness.
- If there is, heads will roll.
- According to Im AM Arvel And Im ADC, Rorschach himself is after the people who want to make Watchmen 2. On the other hand, Deadpool's interference with his interrogations might hinder his attempts a bit...
- Of course he knew, Moore's a Time Lord.
- The two aren't completely mutually exclusive — someone who wanted to kill Silhouette for other reasons (most likely revenge, as suggested above) might be spurred into acting on that impulse by the outing, In addition to the "lost the protection of the group" opportunity noted above, the killer could be both vengeful and homophobic, or perhaps he killer could be vengeful and clever enough to figure that the risk of being caught afterward was less (because the authorities would jump to the wrong conclusion about the motive, and would be less motivated about investigating a crime against a lesbian).
- Also, note that the "Lesbian Whores" text written at the crime scene was only in the movie; in the comic, we never see the murder scene and it is only referenced to briefly.
- I highly doubt this. They were played by different people in the movie (Moloch was played by Matt Frewer, Young Moloch was played by Mike Carpenter, and the john was played by Tony Bardach). AND, in the graphic novel, the john pushes Walter out of the way (in the face).
- Kennedy made Nixon look bad on TV during their debate, and Nixon is great at holding grudges.
- It would allow him to go on as president, having five terms as it turned out.
- I thought the "Magic Bullet" thoery had been disproved in real life because the weird angles were caused by one of the people either sitting in a repositioned seat or standing/leaning in some way.
- Watchmen isn't our universe. It's entirely possible somebody wasn't sitting/standing wierdly in this version of events, and the wierd angles were caused by a magic bullet. Since we couldn't get one to work, Dr. Manhattan doing it kind of makes the most sense.
- The scene with Kennedy's assassination showed the bullet hitting the side of his head, while the real Kennedy was shot in the back of the head. The term "magic bullet" was the result of people not understanding how governor Conally was sitting when he was shot; since the conditions where changed so much, there probably wouldn't be any talk of "magic bullets"
- I thought the "Magic Bullet" thoery had been disproved in real life because the weird angles were caused by one of the people either sitting in a repositioned seat or standing/leaning in some way.
- No, Bubastis was designed to produce the same effect, not subjected to the process. Moreover, Bubastis doesn't have the same level of intellect as Jon and so can't rebuild herself.
- Look again. In both the movie and the book, Bubastis gets caught in the field effect with Manhattan. And how do you know how much intellect a genetically engineered supercat has?
- I like it. Especially since he comes back so large that everybody else is vermin-sized in comparison.
- Perhaps Ozymandias himself was literally inspired by Lovecraft for his plan.
- Heck, Ozymandias practically hired his universe's Lovecraft to do the job.
- Perhaps Ozymandias himself was literally inspired by Lovecraft for his plan.
- Interestingly enough, Thunderbolt, the superhero on whom Ozymandias was based, shares a name with Lovecraftian writer Peter Cannon. Moore is a Lovecraft fan, so maybe he knew that.
- But waste locks are typically not a threat to anybody but themselves, Nny was a rare exception to the rule.
In both the comic and movie, The Comedian warns Moloch he's "on the list", which subsequent events strongly imply is a list of people with cancer, leaked to Nova Express. The entire list is never revealed, but all the cancer victims are people with long associations with Dr. Manhattan. Who else in the movie had a long association with Manhattan? In the comic, which had the squid, Laurie claims she did not have cancer, but this never happens in the movie.
The only thing The Comedian ever showed affection for is his daughter, Laurie. If her name was also on the list, Adrian's life would be in deadly danger, making the removal of The Comedian necessary.
- Dr. Manhattan? Maybe you should put some shorts on or something, if you want to keep fighting evil today.
- When I clicked that link, I was expecting it to be League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Which sort of makes sense, although I'd be very sad if there was a LOEG that invoked as few literary canons (ie, none) as Watchmen did.
- I once saw Ozymandias lift a city bus...!
- A pretty butterfly
- A skull
- His 'signature'
- A splatter.
- A snow angel.
- Two lovers.
- Trench knives.
- His demonic symbol, from which he shall eventually emerge to cleanse the earth of criminals.
- The head of the rabbit costume from Donnie Darko. Time Paradox away!
- Two bears high-fiving.
- An angel made of blood... or a cat.
- An angel made of a cat? Ew. Poor cat.
- The devil with his fly open.
- It's a spill on the floor with bugs going after it and they're gonna eat it.
- It's... THE BOY!!!
- Rorschach's face (or Kovacs' mask, it's up to you). Really.
- Part of a dress.
- an inkblot.
- It also reinforces the idea of comics as immature and over the top, so a new viewer might assume it has the same literary value as Judge Dredd.
- Judge Dredd is a brilliant satire, it's socially relevant and well-written. It has tons of "literary value".
- No, the movie Judge Dredd.
- Or maybe it was just because it was that 300 guy, and he likey the blood and the violence. :P
- Actually, the tendency is for over-the-top stunts and special effects with the violence, but no blood. Look at The Dark Knight. One of the scariest, most violent superhero movies out there. No blood. Ever. No blood in X-Men. No blood in Spider-Man. The only one I can think of is Blade, and that's about vampires, so you can't really do it without blood. Also, 300, but that was the point. The stunts in Watchmen are "people fighting with fists and kicking" stunts, not the usual "dude dodges a helicopter blade using teleportation" stunts or "dude throws a dude through a concrete wall" stunts - superhero stunts. Other than Dr. Manhattan exploding people, which he does in a manner no more fantastic than the ordinary hand grenade, the stunts are simply not fantastic - that is, not fantasy-based. Also. The sex. When was the last time you saw a superhero movie with sex? They ARE deconstructing it, and they're doing it the same way the comic did. Unfortunately...
- The stunts are not fantastic? People in the movie move like ninja in a low-gravity environment. The fighting is always sped up, slowed down or otherwise altered to seem less like a street fight and more like an application of movie magic. If that's a deconstruction of glamorized violence it looks an awwwwful lot like a straightforward, un-ironic use of glamorized violence.
- See, I'm thinking this was a case of Zach Snyder deconstructing himself. Notice that, when the slo-mo effects kick in, it slows at all the wrong parts — rather than slowing down the moves and impacts, making the violence look like ballet, it slows down on shots of bones piercing skin and the like — the parts that are just plain gruesome.
- Bloody, disgusting combat is very in-tone for Watchmen. The storyline is gritty and realistic compared to normal comic books. Using the slowed motion to really bring the injuries to the fore in the combat scenes therefore feeds and informs the tone of the movie.
- Seeing as how Watchmen is essentially deconstructing the whole superhero thing it makes a lot of sense that the movie would be so incredibly brutal. These guys aren't going to web up the thugs and leave them for the cops where they will be promptly arrested. They're going to tear them right the hell apart, breaking enough bones to stop them from ever being a threat again... if they don't kill them outright to stop them. It may have been disgusting to watch but it's pretty authentic to the idea of what's being done.
- rated-blockbusters Jossed by the film's lackluster box office. In fact, we probably won't be seeing any R-rated blockbusters in the near future.
- The Middleman: The Movie. Please let some Hollywood screenwriter be reading this.
- Alternatively, Volgin and Hooded Justice are actually the same person.
They can percieve time differently, both have experience in nuclear development, both have issues understanding/developing relationships with women, and both have big regrets.
After Manhattan left earth, he created the strange monster filled, painted background world that Braid is in order to sort out his conflicting feelings on himself, Laurie, and how he fits into the universe.
By this line of logic, Laurie is the Princess, and Dan is the White Knight.
- River and Simon are the direct descendants of Laurie and Dan— they have the looks, the intelligence, and wealth inherited from Dan's inventions. River is also a descendant of Ozymandias, resulting in prodigy-level intellect and physical ability, unusual thinking patterns, and potential mental instability— she must be Simon's half-sister, as Simon shows no signs. Either Doctor Manhattan has chosen her to test his theory of creating superhumans, by granting her a small amount of his omniscience, or she is also a descendant of the psychic sacrificed by Ozymandias to create his monster in the comic.
- "He doesn't like to be called that."
- That cracks me up.
- This offically the biggest WTF in WMG.
- "I can't kill anybody. EECCCH. So don't ask." - Of course not, because if he can kill anybody, he can kill everybody, and he doesn't want to effect such long-lasting changes on humanity, especially not before Jon Ostermann was even born.
- "I can't make anybody fall in love with anybody else, MMMWA! you liddle put'm there!" - Couldn't salvage his relationship with Laurie, and says one of the things he "can't change" is human nature.
- "I can't bring people back from the dead, it's not a pretty picture, I don't like doing it!" - If he could do that, why wouldn't he?
- Also, when he makes Jafar into another genie, that genie is red and severely limited in his power. He obviously did not duplicate the same experiment that "made him". Probably just game him some illusions of power before locking the crazy mo-fo away (sequels being non-canon of course).
- Along that same vein: "...and NO wishing for more wishes! That's it, THREE: uno, dos, tres. No substitutions, expansions or refunds!" - he also carefully limits the wisher's power, no need letting himself be a TOTAL puppet again ._. .
- It all begs the question; what happens now that he was actually WISHED FREE?
- He created and alternate timeline that would become the Disney Animated Canon
- This troper refuses to believe he's dead.
- This troper agrees.
- Thanks for writing my favourite WMG of all.
- It's a little known fact that being the subject of horrible medical experimentation gives you a voice with inflection, a sense of humor and a taste for art and music. And a British accent.
- And presumably does a 180 of your political opinions as well.
- And makes you grow to be over six foot tall when you're only five foot five?
- The Dr. M completely wiped Rorschach's memory and maybe altered his appearance for good measure. The spatter on the snow was just a byproduct of this particular form of transformation. When he landed in the UK he lived a relatively normal and peaceful life until High Chancellor Susan/Sutler came into power.
- Well, I mean, think about it. This is what I thought, too, although sub in "Amazonian rain forest" or "other planet inhabited by humanoid life" for "near-future England." A few pages later, Doctor Manhattan even says something like "I doubt he'll make it back to civilization." They never said that he actually, y'know, died!
- Assuming the premise of the guess, I figured he would have gone to Mars. It's unlikely that he'd make it back to civilization, and he would survive for a while assuming it was daytime and he stayed close to the ground. He's gone a while with decreased oxygen (hiding in a fridge) before, and it's not as cold as a lot of places in Antarctica.
- Memetic Mutation over on /co/ sees it as a Quantum Leap scenario, Rorschach is constantly hopping from fictional world to fictional world, hoping the next leap will be the one home.
- What happened is that Instead of blasting him into oblivion, Dr. Manhattan actually put Rorschach through a process similar to the one he himself went through. He thus turned Rorschach into a version of himself, but Rorschach must figure out how to "put himself back together"; Jon doesn't believe that Rorschach has the intellectual capacity to do this, hence his remark that he doubts Rorschach will reach civilization. As an aside, this happens to everyone that Jon has blasted. This also makes Rorschach's statement that the "politicians and whores of the world" will beg him to save them, and he'll reply "No", a sort of prophesy...
- My dear god...imagine Rorschach with Manhattan's powers...
- Think about it.They're both handsome, light-haired, charismatic, messiah-like figures who want world peace through mass-murder just as planned...thirty-five minutes ago. At the same time, Rorschach is L. They're both slightly weird, talk in a monotone, parentless, raised in a home, and like to rant about justice. Also both has a regular stash of sugar cubes.
- This troper belives Dr. Manhattan actually destroyed Rorschach and reconstructed him six years in the past as a new person, while still maintaining the majority of his personality, where he went on to become L. See above, and also note questionable methods to achieve their goals.
- The Doom Marine's name has been revealed as John Stalvern. Why would Blake change his name?
- This is practically canon; note the advertisements in-novel for the action figures of Rorschach, Comedian, Moloch, etc.
- Except for the fact that in Saturday Morning Watchmen, it says "Jon can give you cancer." Not only is that NOT Saturday morning approved, but they world only just found out that he "gives people cancer." Also, Bubastis is a girl. Other than that...
- The "Jon can give you cancer" bit, as well as the direct scene parodies from the comic, are inventions of the Literary Agent that brought the cartoon to our world.
- Alternately, it's a biting satire created after the truth came out.
- Despite the cheesiness, the show was fondly remembered as a great cartoon by nostalgic older fans. Many years later, a new animated series was made, that's now Darker and Edgier but still appropriate for children. A few changes were made (i.e. Rorschach was reimagined as an insane but moral conspiracy theorist a la The Question), while some elements were kept. One of the writers of this new show, who knows the whole truth, add subtle hints on things that really happened during the events of Watchmen.
- You really don't understand how the Death Note works, do you?
- This was a joke theory. I know how a Death Note works.
- Which journal, the coded one he usually uses or the translated one he gives to The New Frontiersman? Since Rorschach writes in shorthand it might not work since he tends to not write someone's whole name.
- If Rorschach got his hands on a Death Note he either wouldn't use it (he seems to prefer to use his own hands) or he'd use the hell out of it and the criminal population of New York would suddenly take a nosedive. And then he'd find out it was all a plan by Veidt, and then he finds out that not all polititions and hookers are irrideemably evil.
- Pffftt...forget god-like powers, I give you Rorschach, with the phenomenal power to SEE THROUGH LATEX!
- Wow. That would be the awesomest power ever for anybody who didn't have a severe aversion to all things sexual.
- And they're both redheads.
- According to another WMG, it would make him Dexter from Dexter's Lab, too. Oh, the possibilities.
- If you read the essey he wrote when he was a child about his parents, you see what he thinks of his father back then, even though he never met him. At the first page of Watchmen, at least 30 years later, he still thinks the same thing. And I quote- "They could have followed in the footsteps of good men like my father, or President Truman. Decent men, who believed in a day's work for a day's pay."
- Rorschach conception of "truth or nothing", thinking that telling the truth is always the good thing to do, is also quite childish and naïve.
- He seems to be fond of… sugar cubes.
- This WAS discussed earlier on this page under different topics. I still don't think he's asexual, as I think he displays signs of being sexually repressed. His line about "American love" has always struck me as an odd thing to say as I don't believe he knows anything of the subject. I think that the desire is there somewhere, I just don't think he can sort it out and is physically repulsed by it. Your theory of him being "child-like" is interesting when you consider that his reaction to sex is pretty much the same as when he walked in on his mom when he was a kid - he doesn't understand it, he thinks it's disgusting and he's probably afraid of it.
- If he was really asexual he wouldn't be so obsessed with other people's sex lives.
- Alternatively, Silhouette and the Nurse are a tragic version of Abe Kroenen.
- The splatter of blood was from something that happened to be at the place he was teleported to. Ankh-Morkpork has no shortage of blood.
- Problem: Veidt's German whereas Ender's father is explicitly Polish.
- Who said Veidt was German? And Ender's mother could be the blood relation just as easily. Heck, if Ender's a clone, then the whole family history is a lie.
- Leaving his wife for a sixteen year old.
- Letting the Comedian shoot the Asian Babymama.
- He explained that he cannot change the future because for him is already happening, pinning the death of the mama Asian Babymama on him is taking away The Comedian act from him. The novel would had ended very quickly if he was a jerkass he would had just kill them all and go to Mars and be done with it if that were the case. And Janey left him not the other way around IMO she was already thinking on leaving him out of all her issues with his new found powers and Laurie was just the last straw.
- Yes. He explained that the future is already happening. And Jerkass doesn't mean Chaotic Stupid; it's more fun to let them live and mess with them.
- Just if you think that leaving Earth is the best way to mess with humans... And if you don't trust him as a reliable narrator we might as well say that Rorschach was the one that kidnapped the little girl and feed her to the dogs, that Veidt's was just a foil for Dan's masterplan (the real genius of the book because not even the audience found out) and that Asian Baby Mama was hatching an Alien into her womb and The comedian saved humankind by killing her...
- That's it! You've solved everything!
- He wears the suit.
- There's a legion of him.
- He "doesn't forget" so hard that he remembers things that haven't happened yet. No word on forgiveness.
- Rorschach killed the dog.
- So, we're doomed; none of us are as cruel as Dr. Manhattan
- Too bad Ozymandias wasn't Anonymous; "None of us are as cruel as Ozymandias" has a nice ring to it.
- To be fair, this is the only realistic explanation I've heard of for why he's bright blue.
- He was color blind as a human, and just put his skin back together wrong.
- He uncosciously mimicked the Cherenkov radiation that accompanied his re-embodiment.
- Fashion choice.
- He was into the Smurfs before it was cool.
- He precognitively foresaw the Blue Man Group.
- He just really likes to glow blue. Remember, in both the book and the movie he alters his color before the TV interview, and he marks the Hydrogen symbol on his head in black, plus he can reconstruct his molecules at will, so he can obviously look however he wants.
He calls himself a puppet who can see the strings, but we never saw him so much as try to tug at them. He just sees the future and goes along with it, exerting no effort to change things. The fact that he sees other people, unable to perceive the future, do the same things he foresaw only serves as his excuse for being utterly passive.
- I think his trip to earth was him trying to find a way to care again about humanity. Even if he knew that conversation was going to happen he never explained why. For me he looked for a reason to save us and Laurie gave it to him.
- Or because he was ordered not to.
- This troper always thought that Jon was a guina pig who was likly to survive the "accident" and the military ordered Janey and the other scientists to keep quiet.
- He let all the disasters and deaths happen because he had forseen them, and to prevent them would be to destroy his vision of the future, leaving him completely blind.
- I think he just can't change the future, because there is no future for him everything happens at once, even the events before the accident.
- This is the way things are in the book.
- I think he just can't change the future, because there is no future for him everything happens at once, even the events before the accident.
- That's why he seemed so stilted at the end of the book, because the tachyon field, and the monster bomb had completely disoriented him.
- Possibly, being blown apart allowed him to reconstruct himself properly and he then has senses again.
- Bubastis is already there, waiting for her master.
- Whoa. I just experienced a Heartwarming Moment.
- Awwww!
- Headcanon accepted. He and Bubastis will also team up with Ramses II and Alexander to kick underworld demon ass.
- Whoa. I just experienced a Heartwarming Moment.
- Teleported her back in time about twenty years. To, say, Silk Spectre.
- One of the minor characters elsewhere in the series.
- The mostly off-panel Silhouette.
- Adrian Veit. The baby's gender wasn't mentioned, right?
- You know what would be funny if it were Rorschach but he is a red head no way Asian and dark haired could produce that offspring.
- Manhattan tweaked the kid's genes to help hide. They could look like anyone.
- I think this idea has merits. Had he stared too much at the corpse he might be detached but he is not a morbid God and she had a big belly so the baby had a chance to survive do we have any Asian looking character that could be of the right age on the GN or even the movie?
- Or, perhaps Dr. Manhattan took the unborn child and teleported it through time and space, before putting it in the body of a virgin woman to give birth to it. That's right, Jesus is the child of The Comedian and his Asian Baby Mama.
- The problem with that is though is that he would have to have seriously changed the childs genetics so it would look vaguly Israeli.
- Manhattan tweaked the kid's genes to help hide. They could look like anyone.
- The child was himself.
- I thought the same thing before I've read the end of the graphic novel. I thought the Comedian's murderer was the grown-up child of the Vietnamese girl. He (or she) wanted revenge on his (or her) father for trying to abandoning his (or her) mother and killing her. The child would have been hired by Ozymandias, who most likely learned about this.
- The baby was transported to the regular DCU and became Cassandra Cain.
- That's actually the case. The Question bought it at an airport bookstore to read on a long flight in an issue of his series.
- And now, a very similar Earth exists in the multiverse as Earth-4 where all of the expies... are actually the characters they were based on (Nite Owl(s)=Blue Beetle, Dr. Manhattan=Captain Atom, etc.). In fact it is so similar...
- The Blue skin? He went overboard with the Cosplaying.
- This provides a little more evidence to that belief.
Not so in the movie. Having an actual relationship with Adrian causes Dan to react somewhat differently. Instead of being flabbergasted at Adrian's plan, he's enraged that one of the people he considered a friend has chosen to do something so drastically evil, his two-faced nature on the issue coming off as betrayal to their personal friendship to Dan. This explains why he takes a more aggressive road in how he reacts to the way Adrian states his plan, as opposed to the brow-beaten, soft spoken way he does in the comic. It also helps make his aggressive statement to Adrian about how Adrian's corrupted humanity make more sense; it's his anger and grief not just from Rorschach's death, but from having a friendship he clearly cared about so utterly betrayed.
You could also make a case that Adrian's actions show this friendship as well, as he goes easier on Dan during the fight in Karnak than he does on Rorschach. While he still beats the crap out of Dan, he mainly keeps to simply striking him, whereas Adrian freely flings or kicks Rorschach into structures around the main foyer without a second thought. There's also the fact that he allows Dan to even go ahead and beat on him in the first place after Rorschach's death.
- In both book and film. Sissy Villain Ozymandias in the film is essentially his version of Idle Rich. It tends to throw people off. (Partying with the Village People, too.)
- "(Somebody else gets to explain how he talks.)" —Sentence fragments. No grammar.
- They never said if Captain Carnage was killed or not. Plus, when Rorschach is sent to prison, he is charged with the murders of the Child Murder, The multiple rapist and Moloch. But no one else was listed. It's possible that CC survived the drop by sheer luck, but was crippled in the process.
- I have to disagree. Rorschach was found with Moloch and admitted to killing the child murderer. The rapist was obviously him. Rorschach said that he learned to kill criminals instead of mollycoddling them (his words, not mine), and he must have killed more than just those two people (he didn't kill Moloch). He breaks bones of people who make jokes about him (when they're drunk, no less), so saying that he only killed those two people is ridiculous. We can also look at how willing he is to kill when he chases Big Figure and kills him in the bathroom (we can easily assume), even though he posed no threat. Also, Captain Carnage was dropped down an elevator shaft before the Keene Act was passed, and since he was dressed as a supervillian, the police just thought he had been killed by one of the Watchmen, not necessarily Rorschach. There was no evidence that he was the killer, and it would not hold up in court. To borrow from Mythbusters, BUSTED!
- No, to borrow from Mythbusters, PLAUSIBLE. There's nowhere in the comic or movie that actually says whether Carnage lived or died, and without data, you can have no conclusion. He's in Schr�dinger's Elevator Shaft, neither alive nor dead.
- I have to disagree. Rorschach was found with Moloch and admitted to killing the child murderer. The rapist was obviously him. Rorschach said that he learned to kill criminals instead of mollycoddling them (his words, not mine), and he must have killed more than just those two people (he didn't kill Moloch). He breaks bones of people who make jokes about him (when they're drunk, no less), so saying that he only killed those two people is ridiculous. We can also look at how willing he is to kill when he chases Big Figure and kills him in the bathroom (we can easily assume), even though he posed no threat. Also, Captain Carnage was dropped down an elevator shaft before the Keene Act was passed, and since he was dressed as a supervillian, the police just thought he had been killed by one of the Watchmen, not necessarily Rorschach. There was no evidence that he was the killer, and it would not hold up in court. To borrow from Mythbusters, BUSTED!
- He could have developed psychic powers as a technique he learned in Tibet, during his youth travels.
- I gotta admit, when I read the description for Hoffing, I kept thinking 'Ozymandias, Ozymandias, Ozymandias'... I would not be at all surprised if Watchmen was a major inspiration for that Catalyst. And Rorschach may be a Grimm.
- Dan is a saner Staunen.
- Doctor Manhattan is an Orphaned Wonder. Think about it for a moment. It explains EVERYTHING.
This stems from the film, where Captain Metropolis has no part in the Crimebusters and Ozymandias seems to be the leader.
In short, all those cities that Ozymandius vaporized were hit by IF energy... and all those millions of people are 'ghosts' who may be trying to reassemble themselves! Since Manhattan was originally a nuclear physicist and only managed to reassemble himself into a glowing blue guy, who knows what a bunch of people without knowledge of physics or anatomy will look like?
That's right, a few years after New York is vaporized, there will be mass sightings of shrieking skeletons and ghosts moving around. Their bodies would be composed of some sort of unstable glowing matter (people will call it ectoplasm) and they will be impossible to kill by normal means. Manhattan himself can be affected by tachyons and his body could be vaporized by IF energy... so maybe he could be 'pushed around' by things like particle beams, lasers, and energy containment grids. Thus, the Ghostbusters will have to use particle accelerators and such to round up all the imperfect Manhattan ghosts and keep them contained somewhere before the learn how to nuke the Earth.
- Ghostbusters is set in 1984 and Watchmen in '85 though...
- Is that the same "strong moral fiber" that makes him obey the law and keeps him from beating the crap out of people and killing them? Oh, wait...
- [not original troper] No, it's the strong moral fiber that keeps him regular despite living off canned beans and garbage. I don't know where you got that he didn't beat up and/or kill people, there's a lot of subtext that he does. On a related note, though, the tooth fairy isn't a magical being, it's just a tooth-themed underground hero/villain/nut that simply hasn't crossed the line into Rorschach's "villain" category yet.
- The watchmen are all a simulation created by an engine that badass normal superheroes like robin or batman built in order to understand the various outcomes that might occur to them in their line of work. This is the resson why most of the superheroes in the comic/movie are depicted without superpowers, they are all just different conceptual variations of teen titans' Robin.
- Dr. Manhattan serves as a representation of all the superheroes that are distinctly superhuman. There is only one of him in order to focus on the radical influence his existance has on the rest of humanity, as well as the team. So the watchmen are a simulation created by Batman in order to understand and comprehend the effect that his job would have on him from various points of perspective, and in the form of Manhattan he is able to anticipate and thwart his superpowered teammates (as demonstrated by Ozymandias)
- Um, I'm not sure how to respond to this WMG, considering you clearly only watched the movie. Other than that, though, it's an interesting theory, if just more applicable to the movie-verse. But yeah, they're not a team, and they're not called the watchmen.
- Yeah, consider this as the movie-based WMG.
- ...DUDE. DUDE. I've been using a variation on this for my RP Veidt for like a year now- the differences being that Adrian's father was merely a camp commander who volunteered his pregnant wife over for experimentation on their unborn child. And it wasn't his father's notes that lead Adrian into knowing about genetics. But still. That brings me to my personal WMG:
- Idea for future story: Seymour reads the journal, does some research, and learns the truth about his brother Rorschach. He then makes a new mask, trains, and becomes the new Rorschach, set on exposing and killing Veidt to avenge big brother Walter.
- Whoa, Unfortunate Implications much? Here's a wild theory: movie!Veidt is gay and metrosexual and manly. Plus, it was (lamentably) the 80s.
- It's only Unfortunate because unfortunately that's how society thinks. Besides, this is WILD Mass Guessing.
- The "Unfortunate Implications" are in the masculinity being a sign of being metrosexual instead of gay. Hard Gay is a trope for a reason.
- It's only Unfortunate because unfortunately that's how society thinks. Besides, this is WILD Mass Guessing.
- And of course, they were all gay for Veidt. Yes, even the women. Shut up.
- Note that in the letter young Walter wrote about his parents he mentions how he supported Truman's decision to drop the atomic bomb on Japan, i.e. sacrificing millions of innocent lives to prevent continuance of the war is justified, indicating his willingness to compromise and accept sacrifice in the name of deterring further destruction. By the end of the story it seems Rorschach has undergone a complete 180, disagreeing with Adrian's Truman-like sacrifice of New York to prevent nuclear war, but his childhood consequentialism prevails in his allowance to be destroyed by Doctor Manhattan.
- He still thinks Truman did the right think in the events of the novel, he mentions Truman being a "good man" in the first chapter.
- Expanding on that, every universe has a limited amount of superpower-giving energy, that's different for each universe but constant in every particular universe (for example, our real world has zero super-energy, while the Marvel or DC universes have huge amounts which allows the existence of multiple cosmic-level entities). The Watchmen universe has a smaller reserve than the big super-hero universes, but nonetheless enough for birthing a respectable number of superhumans, but when Jon Osterman was transformed to Doctor Manhattan he used all the super-energy of his universe, leaving his world unable to manifest other superbeings not only from that moment on, but even retroactively for all history (after all Manhattan lives out of normal time). As a result people who should have been superpowered is now only human, but subconsciously they feel the need to have an heroic (or villainous) identity, that's why in that world apparently normal people dress in strange costumes and fight (or commit) crime. The Silk Spectres should be able to walk through walls, Mothman of real flight, Hooded Justice be super-strong, Rorschach maybe have wolverine-like powers, Moloch have real magic and Ozymandias should be a regular flying brick. And like that every other hero and villain including the ones that we don't see but are hinted to exist off-panel.
- Perhaps Doc toyed with his mind a bit to help him out, making him a bit saner. Remember, the DCAU Question is a redhead (he dyes his hair)...
- He is no more an empty shell than anyone else. All actions of people are predictable with an advanced enough knowledge of the past (with the exception of decisions directly based on quantum uncertainty), Dr. Manhattan is no different. His thoughts, like all thoughts, derive from his senses and his past - it's simply that his senses include the results his thoughts will have. If you consider humans self-aware, you must consider Manhattan self-aware for the same reasons. From the fact that he can be tricked by tachyons, he does not do everything simulatenously, he just sees across time. And if you think he doesn't have the capacity to feel horror of it, I suggest you read the Mars chapter again.
Think about it. First name is the same. Kovacs sounds like a corrupted version of Kowalski, which his mother may have been using to distance herself from her ethnic roots. Both have a tendency to isolate themselves from everyone around them. Both take justice into their own hands. Both are....not PC, to say the least. Both lose control over similiar incidences of brutality towards women, Rorschach over the girl's horrific death and Walt over the teenage girl he has befriended being beaten and raped. And at the end, both choose to die in their own way. So, in a nutshell, Rorschach became Clint Eastwood, because he is just that badass.
- Scientist 1: Osterman doesn't need to hear all this, he's a highly trained professional!
- The reason this troper doesn't actually endorse this is hot damn the Unfortunate Implications, but his parents were getting the fuck out of Germany in 1939, while his mother was heavily pregnant, which would imply some urgency. It might have been for another reason, but with how stereotypically Aryan Veidt looks (handsome, blond and powerfully built) and the implications of making any superhero Ambiguously Jewish it would make a decent theory. If not for the um, pretty much terrible implications of "handsome, Ambiguously Gay, ridiculously rich super-secret-stealth-Jew liberal committing mass murder for peace".
- This only works in the GN, though. Matthew Goode has explicitly stated that film!Veidt was the son of a Nazi family himself, and it was ironically him rebelling against that upbringing that lead him to go down the path he ultimately embarked on.
The second coming of Christ will involve him coming back to save humankind from the nuclear fallout resulting from Rorschach's journal.
Question: How did Ozymandias go from being someone Comedian could beat up, to someone who casually destroyed everyone without even trying? If Ozymandias had the kind of physical abilities earlier on, its difficult to see Comedian beating him, even with Veidt being relatively inexperienced. Further time and training doesn't cover it, as Veidt had a much shorter heroic(?) career than the Comedian. Aging doesn't cover it, as while the Comedian was older, he was also still actively doing crazy black ops crap; clearly he wasn't slowing down. Weird implied quasi-mystical training regimens don't really cover it, as that was *before* Veidt started his heroic career; if forgotten arts of the east ( and hallucinagens ) taught him how to bullet time, he'd have had that ability early on.
Supposition: We know Veidt gained considerable personal physical capability between the beginning and end of his career. We know he has considerable, superscience level, knowledge of genetic engineering. Therefore, I propose that at some point between time A and time B, Veidt developed genetic ( or other biological ) enhancements, and granted them to himself. Why did he never say anything about them? Either because its an advantage for people not know about an edge, he doesn't want to admit that he 'cheated', or both.
- "superficially"?? They look exactly the same; the newsdealer and landlady recognize Rorschach's picture. The only difference is a haircut and some bruises he gets in prison; the police mugshot shows Rorschach with the "The End Is Nigh" sandwich-board guy's haircut. The guy stands next to the newsdealer in book three and is clearly shorter. Rorschach's apartment even has the sandwich-boards. The guys picks up Rorschach's messages. The "I bet there's all kinds of stuff we never notice..." scene clinches it.
The squid was just a distraction to conceal that he actually intended to use a Piece of Eden to control the world as he saw fit, not bending to either side of the ancient war.
This could be; remember that Alan Moore retconned Swamp Thing into a creature who just thinks he used to be Alec Holland.
This relates to the WMGs above about Veidt being welcomed into the Egyptian afterlife, and about Bubastis being fused with Dr. Manhattan.
Veidt figured if Bubastis became a goddess, then she could make him into a god in the afterlife. The only way to do this was to fuse her with the only known Physical God in their universe, Dr.Manhattan.
And he knew that Bubastis would be able to reconstruct herself as Dr. Manhattan had done, once she had his memories.
And because he's "the smartest man in the world", he doesn't test his theory out on himself, of course.
Bubastis was pissed for a while, but eventually forgave him. Besides, she's the only one he ever really loved.
- 1) Since Veidt didn't want anyone to discover his plan, why had he written such a list in the first place, instead of just keeping it in his head?
- 2) Why was the list on the monster island? The monster and the cancer victims were unrelated parts of Veidt's plan. Why compromise the plan’s security by having the list and the monster on the same island, when the list doesn't need to be there at all?
- 3) How did The Comedian know the list was a "cancer list"? If Veidt is so smart, he probably didn't title the list People I'm Gonna Give Cancer To. At that point, only one of the people on the list had died from cancer, and even if Janey and Moloch had already been diagnosed with it, there's no way The Comedian would have known about that. For all The Comedian knew, it was just a random list of people related to Dr. Manhattan.
- 4) Even if The Comedian did somehow find out that the list was a cancer list, how did he deduce Veidt's overall plan from that, and from seeing the monster? In order to do that, he would have needed to find out what the monster’s final purpose was, but nothing on the island indicated it was anything else than a horror movie prop. If he somehow found out the list is a cancer list, it wouldn't have taken much brains to realize Veidt wanted to taint Dr. Manhattan's reputation, but the other parts of his plan would be impossible to deduce from the evidence The Comedian supposedly had.
The only logical explanation to all this is that Veidt wanted The Comedian to find out about his plan. He intentionally planted enough evidence on the island that The Comedian could figure it all out. The reason why Veidt did it? In the first and only meeting of the Crimebusters The Comedian humiliated Veidt, saying that humanity is doomed and cannot be saved. As we find out, this is the moment where Veidt first comes up with his master plan. However, Veidt (being a vain man) isn't content with just saving the world, he wants The Comedian to know that the world can be saved, that in the end he was right and The Comedian was wrong. After seeing the tape of The Comedian spilling his beans to Moloch, Veidt knows that The Comedian believed the plan would work. Veidt still has to kill The Comedian, because he's unreliable and might blow the lid off the plan, but what matters to Veidt is that before his death Veidt managed to convince him he was wrong for all those years.
Mark Rosewater started it back in 2003 with Ozymandias, so why the Hell not?
- Rorschach is White and either part Black or Red. I'm leaning towards the latter because of how emotionally fucked up he is, though the other option is funny because of the pun.
- Nite Owl II was Green/White.
- The Comedian was Black/Red
- Silk Specter II is very much Red. Her mother seems Green, in a more balanced, tolerant way rather than the "nature" way.
- Ozymandias is White/Blue (Mark Rosewater said he was the perfect White villain, but most people seem to agree he has some Blue aspects as well)
- Dr. Manhattan was Blue (hurr hurr).
- The Giant Squid was colourless, like an Eldrazi.
- It can't be, since the ABC world has a history of superheroes, robots, monsters, and other supernatural beings that goes back to WWII and further, and none of that stuff is ever seen or mentioned in Watchmen.
- Not unlikely, but, remember Watchmen is based on the Charlton comics. Thunderbolt had a psychic nemesis, so it's not unlikely that element made it to the broad-strokes adaptation.
- Also, Jon is immediately referred to as a "superhero", and as such is forced to meet up with nutjobs like Rorschach and Silk Specter, with whom he admits he has nothing in common. If not for the Minutemen to inspire them, Jon would probably be considered a military asset, and wouldn't be nearly as much of a public figure.