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VeryMelon
topic
03:37:58 PM Sep 1st 2014
This entry is being edit warred over:

  • What an Idiot: Sure, Zaheer. Let's kill Korra after forcing her into the Avatar state, which turns her into the most powerful being on the planet, while restraining her with only some chains that only hold her wrists. What Could Possibly Go Wrong?

Talk it out here.
SeptimusHeap
01:27:06 AM Sep 2nd 2014
I get the impression that we are dealing with a case of people trying to remove opinions they disagree with again...

I am inclined to leave the example, but the spoiler tags have to go.
TheStrayXIII
topic
08:40:36 AM Aug 24th 2014
Hey tropers. Wanted to add:

  • What an Idiot: Ming-Hua luring Mako into the pool of water to gain the upper hand. Sure she doesn't know Mako can bend lightning, but in a time period where lightning-bending is no longer the extremely rare ability it was in the original series (as established in the Book 1), one would think that a skilled waterbender like Ming-Hua would be wary of the possibility that Mako would have been capable of it (as every waterbender should be wary of when facing off against any firebender).

Is this okay? I have a feeling people will add justifying edits to it (I'm aware that Ming-Hua's Idiot Ball moment falls under Truth in Television since it was a high-stress situation, so she wasn't thinking clearly). Just don't want to add anything that might potentially start an edit war (and that's not fun for everyone).
VeryMelon
09:57:29 AM Aug 24th 2014
If there's no proof she knew Mako could lightning bend, then it's not an What an Idiot moment. How "widespread" the ability to lightning bend is is irrelevant.
TheStrayXIII
10:06:23 AM Aug 24th 2014
Alright then, I'll leave it out.
Larkmarn
06:30:56 AM Aug 25th 2014
Not to mention, she had been imprisoned for 13 years. Given the rate that time has moved on, the proliferation of Lightning Bending may be relatively recent. And even then, she's faced off with him before and he didn't lightningbend then so she'd be pretty safe assuming he can't.
VeryMelon
topic
06:18:03 PM Aug 15th 2014
The edits made about Suyin Beifong by WJ Taylor 4 are incredibly suspect. Overtime he made increasing larger edits regarding the character that started edging into, and basically now look like complaining about a character he didn't like. Troper/Silverblade2 made the right call in chopping it all down earlier but WJ Taylor 4 just put it back. Somthing needs to be done about this possible Edit War WJ Taylor 4 is starting.
SeptimusHeap
12:34:18 AM Aug 16th 2014
Messaged them, and put the entries here:

  • Alternative Character Interpretation:
    • Was Lin actually justified in her long standing resentment of her younger half sister Suyin or was she unfairly holding a grudge against her (and their mother for that matter)? How much blame does each sister deserve for the feud lasting for so long? Do they really even bring anything positive into each others lives? Is Lin really a better, happier person for reconciling with Suyin at the end of Old Wounds or was she unfairly bullied into it and now a victim of some casual manipulation by Suyin, who is now taking advantage of the chance to finally get Lin where she always wanted her so she can finally have her "perfect life" by taking advantage of Lin being too emotionally weak to tune her out?
    • Is Suyin really the cool older lady everyone thinks she is, or a Manipulative Bitch who just happens to be on the side of good? Is she even on the side of good? Is her lack of remorse for the various bad or at least questionable things she did in her past her accepting that those mistakes were just a natural part of her journey to becoming a better person, or does she have tendencies of a sociopath where she just plain didn't care who she hurt? Was she ever really sincere about wanting to reconcile with Lin, or was she feeding Blatant Lies to Korra and pretty much everyone else around her? Is she sincere when they finally do reconcile, or again, is she just manipulating an emotionally weakened Lin so she can finally have her life exactly the way she always wanted it?

Not sure which trope:
  • Suyin saying the one thing that truly kept her life from being perfect was that Lin refused to forgive her and be a part of it. Considering that Suyin has a nice big house with plenty of expensive possessions and a family that loves her while Lin has a fairly lonely life back in Republic City so it's pretty hard to take seriously.
Silverblade2
02:39:31 AM Aug 16th 2014
Whether Suyin is a reformed criminal who learned from her mistakes or just retired after making enough money is a good point. However by all implications, it seems like she sincerely tried to reconcile with her sister.

For the second entry, it's possible to have "a nice big house with plenty of expensive possessions and a family that loves her" AND be upset about being unforgiven by her sister. I really don't see any contradiction.
WJTaylor4
04:02:24 PM Aug 16th 2014
I admit my edits were overzealous and tried to force too many ideas into too small a space. If I have offended anyone I am sorry. If there are any additional edits you wish me to remove I shall do so and I shall refrain from visiting and editing that particular page in the future.
VeryMelon
topic
08:56:51 PM Aug 10th 2014
edited by 72.66.98.196
This bit being contested under Author's Saving Throw:

  • Beyond this, the Red Lotus's motives can be seen as a second attempt at the Yin-Yang Clash of Raava and Vaatu, which was criticized for its very Black and White Morality, this time with more authenticity to the Taoist principles of Order Versus Chaos that Raava and Vaatu were supposed to be based on, as well as more time spent on showing the Villain Has a Point beforehand.
    • They are this too for Amon. Lots of people felt that the revelation that Amon/Noatak was a hypocrite bought too quick an end to villainous faction that did have some interesting points. With the Red Lotus we may not know too much but one thing's for sure: they believe what they preach.

Talk it out here.
SeptimusHeap
12:41:48 AM Aug 11th 2014
Methinks that confusing Example as a Thesis strikes again here. I don't think that taking the shape of a retcon is necessary, so I would support readding but with a better Example Indentation.
Silverblade2
03:35:27 AM Aug 11th 2014
Authors Savingthrow is not "making a second attempt" or "listening fan complains". the laconic page "A retcon or plot intended to appease wary or angry fans." Season 3 is not altering Raava and Vaatu's clash and Amon's hypocrisy in anyway.
Silverblade2
03:35:28 AM Aug 11th 2014
edited by 81.246.232.27
I don't know why but I double posted. -_-
SeptimusHeap
04:10:23 AM Aug 11th 2014
I am not seeing any contradiction. The example looks like a "Plot" alright.
Silverblade2
05:19:08 AM Aug 11th 2014
So it doesn't have to be a retcon? so okay then...
SeptimusHeap
06:15:50 AM Aug 11th 2014
I personally think that any "new" development can qualify if it's done to address fan complaints.
Silverblade2
09:00:05 AM Aug 11th 2014
There's also Animation Lead Time to consider. Part of the third season was written before season 2 was broadcast though it can have few changes.
Silverblade2
topic
12:37:28 PM Aug 4th 2014
  • They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character: Many fans feel Unalaq was a considerably more interesting character before he was revealed to be an unscrupulous liar. After "Civil Wars" revealed nearly every single thing he said to be a lie, Unalaq's real motivations were left vague for about half a season's worth of episodes, until he was finally revealed to just be a Complete Monster with none of the ambiguity he had before.

From the laconic page: They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character "A character doesn't get nearly as much exposure as you think s/he deserves." I don't think it's complaining about plot devellopment you don't like. And the same can be said for Amon for the people who liked his fake backstory better than his real one...
Jinbo71
topic
02:03:13 PM Jul 26th 2014
Considering adding an example to Book 3's folder:

  • Internet Backdraft: Fans were not amused when Nickelodeon pulled the remaining episodes from the channel.
MagBas
02:21:27 PM Jul 26th 2014
Internet Backdraft have the following thing as the last paragraph of the description: "No examples, please. Everything can cause this to an extent, whether if it's on the Internet or not."
Jinbo71
04:14:58 PM Jul 26th 2014
Doesn't stop it from appearing in every other YMMV page.
SeptimusHeap
02:45:11 AM Jul 27th 2014
Yep, that paragraph only applies to on-page examples. Wicks are fine.
Rebochan
topic
08:43:33 PM Jul 2nd 2014
Sigh, I love these Lo K edit wars >_<

  • Win BACK The Crowd: In comparison to the second season, the premiere of Book Three has been positively received by viewers. It helps that Mike and Bryan have openly stated that they were given little time to prepare for season 2 after the show was initially conceived as a one season miniseries, and this time they went into the season with a much more solid idea of what they wanted to do.
  • Seasonal Rot: Easily the least popular season. After the show was originally planned to just be a miniseries, Mike and Bryan were caught off guard when Nickelodeon ordered multiple other seasons, after they'd already wrapped up pretty much every plot thread. They had very little time to figure out what they wanted Book 2 to be about before production had to start, resulting in some pretty wobbly plotting at times. By Book 3, they were much better prepared, and it was received far more favorably.

I pulled these because there's no real citations to either. I've literally heard both "Season 2 was better than Season 1" and "Season 2 was crap." Season 3 is barely even started, so making any declarations to it's quality is a bit premature, especially given how bipolar this fandom is at any moment (just watch the edit history of these pages.)
VeryMelon
09:09:31 PM Jul 2nd 2014
I agree with keeping these off the page, at least until the season is over.
TheLaughingFist
09:15:39 PM Jul 2nd 2014
Yeah it's almost like people have different opinions or their mileage may very. But leave them here for now it will be easier to put them back should they remain the mass opinion after season three.

Also none of the tropes on a YMMV page have "citations" outside of places fans talk whether it be tumblr, reddit, 4chan or the like since they are opinion based.
Theozilla
01:04:32 PM Jul 3rd 2014
Just because there are differing opinions that exist doesn't mean they automatically go in YMMV. The Win BACK The Crowd trope has just as much support in being placed in Book 2 as it does with Book 3. And vice versa with Seasonal Rot.
Peteman
topic
08:44:21 PM Jun 20th 2014
I haven't seen the episodes yet, but I thought the giant vines growing in Republic City was due to Vaatuunalaq's rampage.
Rebochan
08:42:46 PM Jul 2nd 2014
edited by 68.106.220.231
Sorry, wrong post.
Eagal
topic
10:09:08 AM Jun 13th 2014
edited by 71.164.186.100
Seems to be a minor edit war going on over this. One way or the other, still needs citation, so I'll just leave this here.

  • Unfortunate Implications: Bolin and Eska's relationship was criticized due to the fact it wouldn't have seen the light of day had the genders been swapped. However given Bolin was driven away by her behavior, it seemed to avert Double Standard: Abuse, Female on Male at first...then the series finale revealed that Bolin [[spoiler: actually still likes her on some level.

Rebochan
08:05:36 PM Jun 13th 2014
The "But what about meeeeen" aspect of that entry is enough to at LEAST give it a rewrite should a real citation ever show up.
CrowTR0bot
09:05:30 PM Jun 21st 2014
How, exactly, is this different from a "real citation?"
SeptimusHeap
11:27:46 PM Jun 21st 2014
It's not a citation. "Was criticized" by virtue of being passive voice and without a reference is not a citation.
WarriorsGate
topic
01:41:56 PM Apr 29th 2014
edited by 208.101.161.86
The user Rebochan deleted my They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot entry, about the struggle between Unalaq's theocracy and Varrick's materialism, claiming the show "wasn't raising any of the issue [I] claim it was".

Despite that, the very first episode states that that was, in fact, Unalaq's motive: "I am saddened to see what [this festival] has become: a cheap carnival that celebrates greedy and trivial humans." Image of Varrick. "I feel the time is fast approaching when the North can no longer stand idly by while our Southern brothers slip into total spiritual decay." There's also plenty of subtler hints, like Varrick's carnival turning Avatar Aang into a cheap water gun target.

As such, I'm reinstating my entry, because in my opinion (YMMV) the first episode hinted at a much more interesting angle to the issue than the cartoonish supervillainy the season eventually turned into. But it is still there in the episode itself.
Rebochan
02:38:33 PM Apr 29th 2014
That trope isn't a dumping ground for your personal storylines.

Also, it's pretty obvious Unalaq wasn't going to tell Korra "My grand plan is to destroy the world! Ahahaha!"

Please don't edit war.
SeptimusHeap
11:22:41 PM Apr 29th 2014
Well, They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot is a YMMV item about storylines that could have happened.
Rebochan
08:03:20 PM Jun 13th 2014
edited by 68.106.220.231
They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot is still not a place where you just complain that your personal pet storyline didn't happen. And for that matter, since ANY plot could have happened, it should be just as valid for me to complain that the show wasn't a serious sports drama about a pro-bending team in war time. Even if that would never have happened.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I brought that one up in Trope Repair Shop before because it just leads to silly complaining like this.
Rebochan
topic
05:02:53 PM Apr 12th 2014
So, under They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot, there's been an entry about Aang's treatment of his children seemingly not being resolved by the end of the season. Well, 1, that sounds more like What Happened to the Mouse?, and 2, wouldn't the fact that the plot thread remains open and we know the show has two more seasons to address it make it rather moot until we get to the series finale and they still haven't done anything with it?
TotalDramaRox97
topic
12:53:29 PM Feb 10th 2014
Would Aye Aye be an Ensemble Dark Horse because a lot of people I know really like him
TotalDramaRox97
topic
04:51:28 PM Dec 5th 2013
Do Lu and Gang classify as Scrappies
tingitania
07:28:51 AM Dec 20th 2013
Don't think so - they were definitely written to be disliked. They're lazy, incompetent, and rude, and no-one likes them in-show. A Scrappy is generally a character that ends up despised by accident due to bad writing. So, no, Lu and Gang don't really fit that trope.
Larkmarn
07:31:30 AM Dec 20th 2013
Hate Sink is the more appropriate trope.
Rebochan
01:20:48 AM Dec 21st 2013
I think it's possible to still get a Scrappy out of a character designed for the audience to dislike if they legitimately hate seeing them in the show and just want them written out. But I think these two didn't really hit that point.
Codafett
topic
09:30:20 AM Dec 4th 2013
Hmm, my addition about Korra being demonized has been removed. What happened there?
DennisDunjinman
09:44:11 AM Dec 4th 2013
Korra has fans who are willing to defend her until she's flawless and sinless. If someone mentions not liking her, they'll just remove the entry.
MrDeath
10:15:01 AM Dec 4th 2013
Except the addition is still in there. Please don't strawman, Dennis.
DennisDunjinman
10:20:06 AM Dec 4th 2013
I'm not strawmanning. I've been there before. Viewing the history shows that complaints about Korra grow slowly alleviated until they eventually disappear. This is also true for non-Korra-related Ron the Death Eater entries and even the Complete Monster debate below.
MrDeath
10:53:47 AM Dec 4th 2013
What I mean is, perhaps the problem isn't with people who will "defend her until she's flawless and sinless" and more with people who put on unnecessary bashing. That's what gets culled, not anything where anyone says something bad about Korra.

And, as stated, Codafett's addition is still in there.
Codafett
01:22:25 PM Dec 4th 2013
False alarm it's still there. Someone just moved it to a different section for some reason.
Rebochan
06:17:12 PM Dec 4th 2013
Dennis, picking fights on the site is a fast ticket to losing your editing privileges.

We have this page here for a reason - the stuff that gets pulled is always either straight up natter or needless trolling.
Larkmarn
topic
08:30:32 AM Dec 3rd 2013
edited by 156.33.241.8
I'd like to add this entry (or one like it. I don't know if that's the right trope, however. RWF seems broad enough to cover it.):

It definitely deserves to be on here as an Audience Reaction, as plenty of people (not just the haters) thought they they got back together. Personally, I thought they did until I rewatched. Plus, it seems like a (relatively) benign way to state on the page that "he didn't shack up with Asami immediately, guys."
SeptimusHeap
12:14:03 PM Dec 3rd 2013
Go ahead.
MrDeath
12:37:05 PM Dec 3rd 2013
Yeah, looks okay to me.
Larkmarn
01:05:08 PM Dec 3rd 2013
Added.
Rebochan
06:30:04 PM Dec 4th 2013
In retrospect, Book 1 had a really obvious one in the finale, so I've added an entry for that as well.
SeptimusHeap
topic
08:53:36 AM Nov 27th 2013
This item is being edit warred over. I'm pulling it over here to see whether it fits:
  • Moral Event Horizon: Varrick was no saint either. He crossed it by instigating False Flag Operations that put countless lives in danger, sabotaged Asami, a girl who lost her family, and framed Mako. All of this, just to get people in a war that he could profit from.

Personally, I am inclined to readd. The standard we hold YMMV items against is that we don't pull them because we hold a different opinion, but just if the facts are wrong. The deletion reason here seems like it falls under the "different opinion" bit - an irredeemable villain can still be funny and likable to some people.
MrDeath
09:05:09 AM Nov 27th 2013
They're certainly Kick the Dog moments or just plain villainous things, but I really don't think they fit the rubric of heinousness necessary for being Moral Event Horizon. It's certainly nowhere near what Unalaq, Amon, or Tarlokk did.
Discar
03:50:37 PM Nov 27th 2013
While I agree that it was not a crossing of the MEH, there is nothing factually inaccurate in that example, and like Septimus said, we are not allowed to pull YMMV items simply because we disagree with them.
Larkmarn
04:42:49 PM Nov 27th 2013
I agree with Discar. Do I think he crossed the MEH? No. But it's a subjective item and he did do enough bad to have potentially crossed someone's MEH, which inherently has different standards for different people.
Torresp
06:09:58 PM Nov 27th 2013
edited by 172.19.131.171
I still say he crossed the moral event horizon, because Varrick did endanger several lives in the process. Endangering lives in the process can never not be (note the deliberate use of the double negative) factored in. It is just blatantly wrong to sympathize with someone who has just sabotaged and taken advantage of a girl who lost her family and everything important to her!

On the contrary, There have been several irredeemable villains that are still likeable, but have crossed the MEH nonetheless. Like Jade from Victorious— she definitely crossed the MEH at one point, but is still likeable.
MrDeath
06:38:03 AM Nov 29th 2013
"Endangering lives" isn't a MEH crossing, otherwise all the protagonists have done it, too, in both this and the previous series.
Torresp
11:22:24 AM Nov 29th 2013
Varrick endangered lives DELIBERATELY.

Also, what about taking advantage of someone who lost her family and everything important to her? I cannot imagine anyone sympathizing with that!
MrDeath
11:34:01 AM Nov 29th 2013
Sympathizing with that action, no. That doesn't mean he's become an irredeemable villain, though.
DrPsyche
11:36:28 AM Nov 29th 2013
edited by 66.75.122.216
The MEH isn't just a bad thing, it's an act that makes the character pure irredeemably evil, the character will be permanently and always evil. Regardless of whether or not Varrick is entertaining after he committed those acts, they don't make him beyond a shadow of a doubt evil, just an amoral businessman.

EDIT: ^Ninja'd

Question unrelated to Varrick: Can a person who crossed the MEH undergo a Heel-Face Turn and become a hero again, or does that undermine the purpose of permanent severe evil?
Torresp
12:03:27 PM Dec 2nd 2013
Fine, we'll compromise and put them as Kick the Dog moments
Larkmarn
topic
07:19:52 AM Nov 21st 2013
Meelo and Ikki are both listed as Ensemble Darkhorse in season 1 and Rescued from the Scrappy Heap in season 2, with RFTSH explicitly saying that they're unpopular in season 1 (Basebreakers at best). That's very contradictory.

Fairly certain that Meelo was pretty popular due to his Ugly Cute design, fartbending, and "be the leaf." Ikki I know took some flak for interrupting when Jenora was asking about Zuko's mom, but I haven't heard anything else.
Rebochan
10:59:52 PM Nov 21st 2013
There's always been a dedicated Hatedom for them, but it's always been very small. I'd pull the entry just for the fact that neither of them are even considered Scrappies around here.
Larkmarn
05:52:59 AM Nov 22nd 2013
If the Hatedom did come around this season, I'd say we keep it in but change the language to specify that the Hatedom stopped... hating. Honestly, that's even more impressive and noteworthy if that's the case
Larkmarn
11:57:26 AM Nov 25th 2013
I'm going to cut them for now... at the very least, the entries aren't well written and are contradictory.
Larkmarn
topic
05:49:26 AM Nov 21st 2013
Was Jinora's... help in the final fight of Book 2 an Ass Pull? It just seemed to come from nowhere and, to be perfectly honest, I'm not positive exactly what she did and I certainly don't know how she did it.
MrDeath
08:04:09 AM Nov 21st 2013
I don't think it can be called an Ass Pull when her importance to spirits and the fact she said right before that she was going to help Korra clearly set her up to do something spiritually significant.
Larkmarn
12:32:10 PM Nov 21st 2013
She's set up to do something spiritually significant but... what she managed to do seemed to come entirely from left field. But I see it's on the main page as a Deus ex Machina which I'm okay with.
Codafett
01:23:54 PM Dec 4th 2013
It's not an ass pull because she DOES have a serious spiritual significance. Plus, in episode....like 2 the Wan statue gave her a chunk of light energy.
heliosphoros
topic
06:43:02 AM Nov 20th 2013
Is Unalaq a good example of a Complete Monster? He does do some very horrible things, but being a Knight Templar seemingly disqualifies you.
Hodor
07:51:59 AM Nov 20th 2013
I think he is a decent example, but if you want to argue him, the best place is probably this thread

In terms of being a Knight Templar, that actually doesn't disqualify a character. The difference between a Well-Intentioned Extremist (who would be disqualified) and a Knight Templar (who would not), is that a Well-Intentioned Extremist has good goals, but uses bad methods to achieve them; in contrast, a Knight Templar has bad goals (even if they consider them good), but use bad methods to achieve them.

The distinction between good and bad goals can be kind of fuzzy.

For Unalaq, although he has a point about the human/spiritual worlds, I think his goal is pretty much ruling the world and wiping out present civilization- that would be a bad goal, which he tries to acheive through bad methods- a Knight Templar- and so he wouldn't be disqualified unles you would argue that his goal was something different/a good goal.
AnsemPaul
05:51:34 AM Nov 21st 2013
I think he just wanted to rule everything and it was the dark spirit who pushed him to DESTROY EVERYTHING!
Larkmarn
06:53:02 AM Nov 21st 2013
edited by 156.33.241.8
He explicitly said that he would create a new world with him as its ruler. But... I don't remember if he said that before or after Vaatu fused with him. If after, I don't think we can exactly count it, since that wasn't really Unalaq.

But the point remains, was he doing bad things for a relatively noble ultimate goal (help the spirits), or did he see helping the spirits as the best way for him to get to power?

Anyway, discuss it in the CM thread, I mentioned it there.
LordMortis
topic
10:16:47 AM Nov 17th 2013
How about a Hilarious in Hindsight for the similarities between the Harmonic Convergence and what happens in Thor: The Dark World?
Codafett
01:29:51 PM Dec 4th 2013
As long as you spoiler, it should be okay.
Alega5
topic
08:27:20 PM Nov 16th 2013
Can we expand the Woobie for Korra considering the crap she went through out Season 2. That girl needs a hug.
Codafett
01:32:08 PM Dec 4th 2013
I added Jerkass Woobie, because, even though I'm on her side, she was being unreasonable for a while.
Rebochan
06:18:41 PM Dec 4th 2013
Yea, she's not a Jerkass though. The current entry honestly completely undermines her being a Jerkass by pointing out that her increasingly irritable behavior was justified. A Jerkass by nature is not someone who has a reason for being upset.
Codafett
09:13:15 AM Dec 5th 2013
You know, I'm kinda of ashamed that I didn't consider that.
Raxis
topic
06:26:11 PM Nov 15th 2013
Suggesting a YMMV trope where Book 2 is concerned...

Idiot Plot: The only reason Korra became aware of Unalak's plan in the first place is because he decided to carry out a plan to take over the south pole, something that he outright said he didn't even care about doing. If he'd just maintained the facade of being Korra's spirit teacher, he'd have won without Korra even learning what he was doing.
Rebochan
06:20:12 PM Dec 4th 2013
That's not an idiot plot, which is a plot where everyone involved has to be an idiot for it to take place.
lazinesslord
topic
07:32:24 PM Nov 8th 2013
edited by 38.123.35.131
Spoiler alert for those who haven't seen "A New Spiritual Age" yet.

In this episode fan favorite character from "Avatar: The Last Airbender," Iroh, shows up. I find it difficult to believe that me and my a friends were the only ones who were cheering excitedly at the top of their lungs at his arrival. So can we add Iroh's arrival as an example of And the Fandom Rejoiced to the page?
LC
08:40:57 PM Nov 8th 2013
You were not the only one 8^D
Shadao
08:55:11 PM Nov 8th 2013
I believe it's already added.
lazinesslord
07:19:46 AM Nov 9th 2013
edited by 38.123.35.131
I can't seem to find it anywhere on the YMMV page. Is it somewhere else?
Shadao
10:02:52 PM Nov 9th 2013
And the Fandom Rejoiced is not allowed on the YMMV at all since it's a Sugar Wiki trope. Iroh's return is on that page.
UlfricTurncoat
04:57:52 PM Nov 13th 2013
edited by 50.15.186.36
Could he be considered an Ensemble Darkhorse in this series? I know he's a main character in the first series, but he doesn't look to have a lot of screen time in this one. His appearance already seems to be a heavily celebrated part of this Book. If it's already stuff that's covered by the rejoicing page however, I'm sorry for wasting every body's time.
TotalDramaRox97
topic
06:37:25 PM Nov 8th 2013
We should add these The Scrappy: Lu and Gang have received a lot of hate from the fandom for being corrupt officers who don't take their job seriously and the only time they did any real work was to get Mako arrested

They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot: Unalaq revealing he lied about not needing Korra dropped the suspense of the season substantially

Alas, Poor Scrappy: Mako deserves some sympathy he's becoming more of a Butt Monkey and the a lot of the fandom is acting like he deserves all that's happening to him, despite the fact he Took a Level in Kindness, even when Bolin brushed him off when Mako was trying to help Republic City some of the fandom acted like he deserved it

Jerkass Woobie: Yes Eska was abusive towards Bolin, but once you see that she really did love Bolin you can't help but feel bad for her. Especially when it was revealed that Unalaq would risk his own kid's life to open the portal, it makes you wonder maybe she's the way she was because her father

Moral Event Horizon: Unalaq crossed this when he didn't bother to help his own son when he got injured despite Eska saying he needed a healer, and he stays past it when it's revealed he's working for Vaatu (Spirit World's Satan)

plcthecd
08:58:08 PM Nov 8th 2013
Agreed
MrDeath
08:10:16 AM Nov 9th 2013
Alas, Poor Scrappy is for characters being killed.
TotalDramaRox97
09:09:42 AM Nov 9th 2013
Oh okay i thought it was for Scrappies or Ex-Scrappies who deserve sympathy
Shadao
10:07:58 PM Nov 9th 2013
edited by 50.131.101.157
There's a better, more clear example of Unalaq crossing the Moral Event Horizon in A New Spiritual Age: He basically threatens to destroy the soul of Jinora unless Korra agrees to open the Northern Spirit Portal for her safety but as soon as she does, Unalaq tries to destroy Korra's own soul with dark water bending and has Jinora be taken somewhere else in the clutches of Dark Spirits.
TotalDramaRox97
02:34:57 PM Nov 14th 2013
That is a MEH but it happened after he abandoned his son when he needed help

If the MEH I said doesn't count then what Shadao said definitely fits the entry
plcthecd
topic
04:22:20 PM Nov 6th 2013
Should we add Varrick in the list of Magnificent Bastard?
LC
02:17:21 PM Nov 7th 2013
YEEE Eeee ES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lazinesslord
07:20:47 PM Nov 8th 2013
Yes, most defiantly. It is difficult to not like him despite his being a bitch in sheep's clothing. The way he switches from funny and eccentric to scary and intimidating then back is exactly what magnificent bastard is all about.
Raxis
topic
05:44:48 PM Nov 1st 2013
Do we have a trope for what happened to Lin in this book?

First she shushes Mako when he has actual evidence, then she has to personally come investigate him when criminals accuse him of a crime.
Peteman
05:50:53 PM Nov 1st 2013
MrDeath
06:10:31 AM Nov 5th 2013
I don't think it counts. She shushed him because he kept barging into meetings she was having with someone else, and she came to investigate him because police don't just dismiss a tip because "a criminal told us." Especially when that criminal has a known association with the person, and when the person just admitted he had worked with them recently.
DennisDunjinman
03:41:15 PM Nov 8th 2013
Yes, but Beifong is a metalbender, and it's been shown that all metalbenders need to make use of Toph's special seismic senses to bend metal. Seismic senses that also made Toph a Living Lie Detector. Lin would be fully aware whether or not someone was lying or telling the truth; not everyone is a stoically pathological liar like Azula.

Lin should know that Mako is probably telling the truth and can't discount the idea that the evidence incriminating him could have been planted.
Larkmarn
04:49:42 PM Nov 8th 2013
That's not how Toph's Living Lie Detector works. The seismic sense doesn't make you a living lie detector, but it's necessary part of Toph's method. Having the necessary sense doesn't mean she has everything else necessary to interpret peoples' lies.
Hodor
04:57:40 PM Nov 8th 2013
edited by 71.57.52.184
Toph's Living Lie Detector thing was tied to her Disability Superpower and was something unique to her.

Which is to say I agree with the above.
UlfricTurncoat
05:04:16 PM Nov 8th 2013
I'd say Took a Level in Dumbass and Took a Level in Jerkass would both be good for her. Seriously, what the hell happened to her?
Peteman
06:19:27 PM Nov 8th 2013
Hopefully, it's a case of Neutral Jing, and she's using Obfuscating Stupidity.
isoycrazy
topic
04:23:56 PM Oct 13th 2013
Willbry, your post of:

  • Bolin's comment in episode 3 that Korra had better watch out for "heart-breaker" Mako seems harsh when the break up actually does happen later on.

comes from Season 2's episode 3, not book 1.
SeptimusHeap
04:29:08 AM Oct 15th 2013
*Sigh* I knew something was wrong there; I'll ask for a re-edit.
businka
topic
03:56:48 PM Oct 8th 2013
Korra's Idiot Ball Ok. A few days ago, I hung an Idiot Ball on Korra for not realizing that South had been invaded, helping her uncle against the Resistance, only blaming the judge for the trial's outcome, and realizing the truth only when the said judge accidentally spilled the bean.

This entry was deleted by a fellow trooper with a comment that said "...what? She knew that, she just thought it was for the greater good until the trial." Well, right - Korra was being an idiot. Isn't that the point?

I posted the entry back with a note saying Korra was being genre blind, even more so than the entire Southern population. Again - deleted with "Korra's Genre Blindness with Unalaq doesn't warrant the Idiot Ball trope. The series itself states Unalaq's deliberately acted just reasonably enough to avoid Korra's suspicion. Also Unalaq's reasons for having troops to protect the spirit portal were even revealed to be genuine in Peacemakers." I'm not quite sure what he meant by the last statement, and Korra didn't really seem have any suspicions until the judge spilled everything.

But again - Korra got fooled badly; very badly. Doesn't that warrant her an Idiot ball for her? I wouldn't mind adding this entry to YMMV, but that page is locked.
MrDeath
09:03:49 AM Oct 9th 2013
Being fooled isn't automatically idiot ball. People can be fooled without being or becoming an idiot. Just because the character did not make the decision you would have (with hindsight, an outside perspective, and no personal investment) does not make them an idiot.
Codafett
09:27:36 AM Dec 4th 2013
Yeah, from Korra's perspective Unalaq was nowhere near the untrustworthy ass we now know him to be.
SeptimusHeap
topic
02:32:57 AM Sep 28th 2013
Re page lock: The page has been locked due to disputes. There is a thread to request edits here.

Larkmarn
topic
07:50:00 AM Sep 21st 2013
Before it gets added again: Mako did NOT refer to Asami as a leech. It's a figure of speech, a pre-industrial version of "like ripping off a band-aid." When you hear someone suggest that he break up quickly in one go, like ripping off a band-aid, you don't think that the person is referring to their (former) significant other as a used band-aid, do you?

I do agree it counts as a Take That, Scrappy!, though.
Theozilla
03:54:39 PM Sep 21st 2013
Agreed, also here are two staff/production members of the show confirming that Mako was not referring to Asami as a leech, in case there are people who need further evidence: http://bill-rinaldi.tumblr.com/post/61892933475/so-what-mako-meant-with-the-blood-sucking-leech
DrPsyche
10:41:33 AM Sep 24th 2013
Question: Should that tumblr post be linked to the Word of God description on the Fan Dumb entry for evidence?
Larkmarn
11:26:40 AM Sep 24th 2013
edited by 156.33.241.5
Wouldn't the Fan Dumb entry fit Hate Dumb better?

I know Hate Dumb has issues (it's in TRS) so I'm really not sure. Just throwing it out there.
Rebochan
02:12:18 PM Sep 24th 2013
edited by 209.234.187.242
Yea, you're actually right. I wrote it too hasty. Now that the page is locked, I have to take time to think about these :) I'd suggest moving it there and including the link to Bill's blog as a note.

That request can be made in the locked pages thread on the boards. The mods don't read these pages for locked page edits.
Hodor
07:25:43 AM Sep 25th 2013
I hate to say it, but I don't know if that does count as Word of God (more like Word of St. Paul or Word of Dante), since it isn't provided by Mike or Bryan.

On the other hand, I feel like the actual show itself makes the meaning of the leech thing pretty clear when Bolin is talking to Mako and Korra about Eska.
Larkmarn
08:05:23 AM Sep 25th 2013
Looking at the tropes, it does seem like it's closer to Word of St. Paul. But yeah, common sense makes it very clear what it's about.

If only the shippers had any.
Antiyonder
03:17:38 PM Nov 8th 2013
edited by 68.113.7.254
Problem with Rinaldi's argument though is: "Just try and enjoy the show and stop looking for controversy in every episode. People aren’t watching spongebob or Dora with such a ravenous need for finding things to complain about, so try not to do the same with Korra, it’ll be that much more enjoyable!"

Ok, even if people are blowing Mako's comment out of proportions, why did he compare Legend of Korra to Dora and Spongebob? Yeah they're all Nicktoons, but it's also suppose to be more thought provoking that either of them.
Theozilla
topic
11:54:00 PM Sep 15th 2013
The Author's Saving Throw entry in Book 2 really does not belong there (just the trope name, not the entries) as the trope description of Author's Saving Throw requires that:"An especially brave idea is set forth to turn a character on his head and change the status quo in a big way... and the fans revolt. The writer then does a retcon which seems openly apologetic. This is the saving throw. It assures the fans that the character either was not in control of his actions, or he was Actually a Doombot or events were not as they seemed." And since most of Book 2 had been completely scripted before the finale of Book 1 even aired the entries listed can't really be considered as being there due to fan reaction. The entires are interesting observations but they don't fit the trope.
Baroxio
07:12:30 AM Sep 16th 2013
" It assures the fans that the character either was not in control of his actions, or he was Actually a Doombot or events were not as they seemed."

Isn't this the case for "Aang" ordering Korra to be locked up on the compound?

The series was originally designed to be a one-shot miniseries, so early fan reactions or even basic hindsight could very well have caused them to change it.
Antiyonder
12:31:52 PM Sep 16th 2013
"Isn't this the case for "Aang" ordering Korra to be locked up on the compound?"

Incidentally, I always thought that was suppose to be a case of the Order of the White Lotus misreading Aang's request. I mean keep her safe could easily have meant to have someone checking up on her at times or have one of them go along as a traveling companion.
Theozilla
01:00:59 PM Sep 16th 2013
The reveal of Aang could work if wasn't for the fact (as I stated already) that plot point/reveal was written way before Book 1 aired, it is impossible for those plot points/reveals to be there due to fan reaction, which is a requirement for the trope. Bryke and production team have stated multiple times that yes, series was originally designed to be a one-shot miniseries, but that the additional three books were picked up during the production of book 1, and book 2 was nearly finished in its scripting before Book 1 aired.

I think these observations should have a place in YMMV but I think they need to be under a different trope heading. They don't qualify for Author's Saving Throw.
Rebochan
01:57:44 PM Sep 16th 2013
Yea, looking over what you guys pointed out, I definitely agree these aren't saving throws.

I also think it's premature to called Mako Rescued from the Scrappy Heap, though I will cop to being very hands off with the fandom right now and didn't realize the entry was added by someone voicing a personal view.
Theozilla
02:02:38 PM Sep 16th 2013
So are there any other tropes you think these entries could fall under? Because they are interesting and I think they could have a place in YMMV.
Hodor
02:06:31 PM Sep 16th 2013
Theozilla
02:48:03 PM Sep 16th 2013
edited by 192.235.7.102
Hmmm maybe, I think it could definitely work for the first two entries, not sure the third entry would though as Bryke indicated that they like pro-bending (and competitive sports), and I think the fourth entry could possibly work. I'll change it for now as its still a better fit the current heading.
Rebochan
11:02:46 AM Sep 20th 2013
I'm bringing this back for now because Intended Audience Reaction isn't a YMMV trope and non-YMMV tropes don't go on the YMMV pages.

  • Intended Audience Reaction:
    • When Korra unlocked her airbending in Book 1, some fans noticed that her bending seemed far more aggressive than traditional airbending, in the first episode of Book 2 it's acknowledged that Korra's airbending style is very simplistic and she has a long way to go before fully mastering it.
    • Korra being kept in isolation during her training also got some controversy, about how Aang would have never set something like it up. Come season two, we learn that Aang indeed had nothing to do with the process, which was created shortly after his death.
    • The amount of time Book 1 spent on pro-bending was criticized by some fans. Book 2 reveals that Mako and Korra have retired from pro-bending for police work and Avatar training, respectively. Bolin and his two new teammates are then eliminated from the tournament in what is called the quickest defeat in pro-bending history.
    • There was a lot of fan split during the first season over the degree to which the Equalists had a point (if at all) and one subject of contention was the fact that the current Republic City government didn't come across as a great alternative. In the new season, Republic City's appointed nation-based ruling council is replaced by an elected President, who happens to be a non-bender.
Larkmarn
11:08:32 AM Sep 20th 2013
I noticed that too. I'm thinking that since Intended Audience Reaction does say "As a general rule, only refer to something as an Intended Audience Reaction on a work's main page (as opposed to its YMMV page) if it is backed up by Word Of God (preferably with a citation)." which might have made them think that it meant it goes on the main page with a citation, and YMMV if it didn't. It's a bit ambiguously worded, but yeah, it's not the right trope/page.

Hodor
11:11:38 AM Sep 20th 2013
edited by 10.220.78.221
Hmm, I guess maybe there isn't a trope here. At least in terms of the example I added (the last one), there was a recent comment from Bryan (one of the creators) about the change in government during the new season being the result of Tenzin and the other council members realizing the government was unrepresentative (and that had lead to some of the Equalist issues), which is why they stepped down and had open elections.

So, it wasn't an accident (thankfully) that the previous Republic City government system didn't seem like a great idea (note, I understand why the Gaang would have created such a system).
AnewMan
topic
06:44:53 PM Jul 20th 2013
Now that we've heard Bryke's DVD commentary, can we please, please add Mako as the Creator's Pet? And it's not about me personally or anyone else hating the guy: it's that he fits the exact definition of the trope. He's a character that is totally reviled by the fandom but totally loved by the creators. I'm sure we're afraid of looking like we have biases here, but if he fits the trope, he fits. It's unarguable at this point.
TheOtherSteve
06:46:37 PM Jul 20th 2013
Could you cite some specific examples? Some of us don't have the DV Ds.
AnewMan
06:55:42 PM Jul 20th 2013
Every single time Mako made a mistake in the show, Bryke brought up their awareness of the fandom's Mako hate for things like these and then proceeded to defend and justify his behavior and actions. Their excuses were "he's a flawed human being and a teenager. He's gonna make mistakes. Don't hate him for it 'cause he's awesome otherwise. Forgive and forget!" Completely ignoring that their narrative did not paint Mako's choices as mistakes that had to have repercussions ('cause they didn't) and he never ever owed up to those mistakes. At all. In fact, he blamed everyone involved in the love square for something or other EXCEPT himself. That Bryke just glosses over this and actually insist (right there, in the commentary) that all Mako haters are just angry shippers butthurt over their pairing not happening shows to me that Mako is their Creator's Pet.
Antiyonder
01:52:35 PM Aug 5th 2013
""he's a flawed human being and a teenager. He's gonna make mistakes. Don't hate him for it 'cause he's awesome otherwise. Forgive and forget!""

This: 1. They're basically saying that age automatically absolves one of needing criticism, which in truth is how people grow. So either messed up morals or favoritism. Not flattering either way.

2. Heck, here's food for thought. Compared to the actions of Ozai and Amon, Sokka's sexism could easily be defended on the grounds that "he's a teenage boy". Yet the previous series had him called out on it. So why is Mako's behavior okay, while Sokka's isn't?
Larkmarn
12:20:27 PM Aug 6th 2013
^ Agreed. I think there's a significant difference between Character Shilling and a creator not really understanding the incredibly intense backlash that part of the fandom has.

Not saying it's wrong, but... well, we need to take some of these things with a grain of salt due to strong feelings on both sides.
Antiyonder
03:47:47 PM Aug 6th 2013
Here's one of the quotes "Wait until you're in college and like two people at once, then get back to me about how you act."

Sounds like a deflection of criticism to me. And I have to ask, why do characters like Tahno and Sokka get called out for their actions, but Mako doesn't? I mean going with Bryke's logic, cheating at sports and sexism isn't on par with genocide or terrorism. Thus the only answer is favortism.
MrDeath
06:50:59 AM Aug 7th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
It's not a deflection of criticism of Mako's actions, he's responding to criticism of how he was written. He's not saying "Mako's actions are okay because of this," he's saying, "Mako's acting like this because he's in an awkward situation and people that age don't know how to handle it."

You're trying to make it sound like he's saying Mako's completely excused and faultless, but what he's actually saying is, "Mako's a dumb teenager, he's not going to act like a completely perfect saint."

And I really don't understand the last couple sentences. Why are you bringing up genocide or terrorism? Sokka and Tahno get called out for their actions because they were acting like obnoxious pricks. Mako, for the most part, doesn't.
Peteman
09:04:20 AM Aug 7th 2013
"I mean going with Bryke's logic, cheating at sports and sexism isn't on par with genocide or terrorism."

That doesn't make sense, because the way that's written, you're arguing that it is, despite the first two merely being assholish behavior, while the latter two involves murder.

Based on your quote of Bryke, I have to agree with MrDeath in that he's not being talked about as correct and his behavior is excused, but rather his behavior is understandable in that he's a confused and inexperienced teenager who doesn't always make the best decisions.

He's in over his head, there's a major crisis with world-affecting implications he's not trained for but is caught up in because someone he deeply cares about is stuck in the middle, and his hormones are not helping.

It would be nice if they can have part of season 2 dedicated to calling out his bullshit now that the world-shaking crisis is over and they've had time to cool down and mull over what he did. What Mako did was wrong, but it's the kind of thing that getting all flustered about when terrorists are overthrowing the city and will likely use it as a launching point for more conquests seems kind of petty.
Antiyonder
11:12:41 AM Aug 7th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.4
"And I really don't understand the last couple sentences. Why are you bringing up genocide or terrorism?"

Because usually when people try to defend Mako, they point out how he doesn't need to be called out on his actions, you know, because there are characters who've done much worse than two-timing.

So I figure that Sokka and Tahno's behavior is more comparable, yet they got chewed out by the narrative, while Mako didn't. Plus to play the devil's advocate, sexism and cheating at sports is something that teenage boys do. Thus aren't wrong.

"Sokka and Tahno get called out for their actions because they were acting like obnoxious pricks. Mako, for the most part, doesn't."

  • Never admits his part in the kiss.
  • When approached on it, he still denies it.
  • Tries to put his brother on the spot. Yeah, the only time you get to keep secrets and expect others to do so is when it's not a harmful secret (undermining someone elses trust and all).
  • When Asami makes some well deserved jabs, he makes her out to be the bad guy for the horrific crime of "wanting her boyfriend to be honest".
  • And even if you don't think he could have backed out of the first kiss, he was about to kiss Korra in Episode 11. You know, in the same room where his girlfriend was sleeping.
  • Ok, even if there wasn't time for a lengthy apology on his part, why could his dialogue have been "I'm sorry I messed things up between us", rather "I'm sorry things got messed up between us". What we got sounded more like condolences offered by a guy who wasn't at fault for how things turned out, whereas my rewording of it as small as it maybe at least has him admitting he is partially to blame.

"Based on your quote of Bryke, I have to agree with Mr Death in that he's not being talked about as correct and his behavior is excused, but rather his behavior is understandable in that he's a confused and inexperienced teenager who doesn't always make the best decisions."

Yeah, all good in theory, but the point is they want us to respect the character, even without doing anything writing that would provoke the audience to cooperate. Giving him a more direct apology, plus having him break up with Asami without the certainty that Korra would take him, would have been a big step in that.

In contrast, Sokka directly apologizes for his sexism and develops more respect. As such, the audience is more inclined to respect him.

Tahno, well aside from sympathizing, he works as his character isn't suppose to be respectable.

And I'm still iffy on whether or not there was enough time for a better apology. So, we can't fit in a better apology, but we definitely needed to have Amon praising Mako's "talent", and fit in some moments where Bolin's buttmonkey status is demonstrated.

So whether it's favoritism, or not understanding that you have to earn respect through admitting and working on your flaws, Bryke doesn't come off well either way.
MrDeath
11:32:56 AM Aug 7th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
Never admits his part in the kiss. Etc.

And not one bit of that even remotely fits the definition of an obnoxious prick. Mako's behavior is not at all comparable to Sokka's (where he repeatedly and obnoxiously puts down the Kiyoshi Warriors for being girls, right to their face), or Tahno's (where he...well, was Tahno). Mako is pretty clearly someone who's caught in an awkward situation, and flailing to try and make up for it—he's not deliberately being a dick, like Sokka and Tahno were. There really is no valid comparison between the two.

And no, the choices weren't between "have him apologize vs. have him be talked up." Not everything works on the dichotomy in your head of "The creators are only considering how much some people are going to hate this character."
Hodor
11:41:10 AM Aug 7th 2013
I'm not sure whether or not Mako is a Creator's Pet, but I will admit that it kind of rankles (and probably has a lot to do with why so many people hate Mako), that while early commentary on the characters described Bolin as a cool, fun loving Chick Magnet and Mako as along the lines of an Ineffectual Loner- then, the show itself has Bolin as a pathetic Butt Monkey and Mako as the cool type of loner.
MrDeath
11:42:01 AM Aug 7th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
Don't put words in my mouth, and don't pull that skewed hyperbole, please, Antiyonder.

You're blowing everything out of proportion here. Bolin gets three words telling him that he was being too cheery at the wrong time. You're trying to make it seem like everyone put him through the wringer as penance for it.

I mean, good god, what do you want here? For Mako to be put through the wringer because he had the gall to be a dumb teenager who made a couple mistakes?

All you've made clear here is that you hate Mako, therefore anything that portrays him vaguely positively must be character shilling because he made the kind of mistake any idiot kid in love (read: everyone) can and would make.
MrDeath
11:51:35 AM Aug 7th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
I mean, this may surprise you, but punishing Mako for making the entirely understandable, if dumb, mistakes he made because he's in over his head in several ways all at once isn't the main focus of the series.
Antiyonder
11:53:33 AM Aug 7th 2013
"You're blowing everything out of proportion here. Bolin gets three words telling him that he was being too cheery at the wrong time."

He got some angry stares as well.

I mean, good god, what do you want here? For Mako to be put through the wringer because he had the gall to be a dumb teenager who made a couple mistakes?

Making mistakes on their own, no. Making mistakes and not owning up to them is where the problem is.
MrDeath
11:59:28 AM Aug 7th 2013
Angry stares? Okay. You're still blowing everything out of proportion.

What is he supposed to do to "own up" to them? What we see does not present him with the time and opportunity to do so, because he's right in the middle of a dozen things that are infinitely more important than him apologizing.
Antiyonder
12:07:43 PM Aug 7th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.6
"What is he supposed to do to "own up" to them?"

Basically a more direct apology for the kiss and trying to hide it rather than "I'm sorry things got messed up between us".

I fail to see why expecting something like "I'm sorry I messed things up between us" is so unreasonable. I mean to improve on a mistake, you have to admit that one was made.

"What we see does not present him with the time and opportunity to do so, because he's right in the middle of a dozen things that are infinitely more important than him apologizing."

Well, Episode 10 was a good time (Not to mention that apologizing in that Episode eliminates the problems I listed). Korra got better and there was no Equalist activity, plus they had time to rest and mingle (in Episode 11) prior to General Iroh showing up.
MrDeath
12:48:40 PM Aug 7th 2013
Even if Korra was better and there wasn't any Equalists attacking right that second, Korra's recovery and the Equalist threat is still weighing more heavily on everybody's minds than Mako messing up.

And are we seriously arguing on that minor level of semantics? "I'm sorry things got messed up" vs. "I'm sorry I messed things up"? Really? This seems to assume that all the blame is laid at Mako's feet, which it isn't.
Antiyonder
01:03:43 PM Aug 7th 2013
"Even if Korra was better and there wasn't any Equalists attacking right that second, Korra's recovery and the Equalist threat is still weighing more heavily on everybody's minds than Mako messing up."

That still doesn't make his inability to own up to it right. And it doesn't change the fact that it still was a good time to resolve things between them.

Point is, Bryke expected us to respect him, without giving us any reasons to do so. And that's not how respect works.

"This seems to assume that all the blame is laid at Mako's feet, which it isn't."

No it isn't, but he still gets some of the blame. Now if Korra grabbed a hold of him, not letting him go and he struggled to break free from the kiss, then there would be a case of not blaming Mako or at least not so much.
MrDeath
01:29:06 PM Aug 7th 2013
Him making one extra, some would say superfluous, apology is not the only criteria for respecting someone.

Korra initiated the kiss. Just because Mako didn't fight her off doesn't make it his fault. What was he going to do, deck her?
Antiyonder
05:29:33 PM Aug 7th 2013
"Korra initiated the kiss. Just because Mako didn't fight her off doesn't make it his fault. What was he going to do, deck her?"

Back away perhaps or push her away gently. Again, she didn't hold him into the kiss, he chose to continue it.

"Him making one extra, some would say superfluous, apology is not the only criteria for respecting someone."

Well, there's also the fact that his (direct) apology involves him being honest. Second, look at the following moments:

  • When approached on it, he still denies it.
  • Tries to put his brother on the spot. Yeah, the only time you get to keep secrets and expect others to do so is when it's not a harmful secret (undermining someone elses trust and all).
  • When Asami makes some well deserved jabs, he makes her out to be the bad guy for the horrific crime of "wanting her boyfriend to be honest".

Now had Mako apologized sooner, these moments wouldn't have happened. As such, he would have less to apologize for.
MrDeath
05:45:16 PM Aug 7th 2013
I think we've gone far beyond the point. It's still not Creator's Pet. Nothing you've said serves as any kind of actual support for that trope qualification, so I think we're done here. "He didn't apologize to my particular standards" isn't the trope.
Antiyonder
05:56:52 PM Aug 7th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.4
Ok, then.
  • How about the fact that even though he was poor and unable to afford lessons, that he has skills that should be beyond his capabilities? I mean take Bloodbending. If an experienced Avatar like Aang couldn't resist it without going into Avatar State, then why should Mako of all people succeed?
    • Or for that matter, being able to use lightning without killing someone (which even the elder Iroh couldn't do)?

  • Heck, in Book 2 he's a cop, why? Granted, his characterization was inconsistent, to a degree he came off as someone more concerned with protecting only those that are close to him. Thus it's a bit iffy that he's suddenly interested in a profession that involves protecting countless strangers. And while he made a joke about Korra's only friend being a polar bear dog, his jokes in regard to responding to the crooks he captured feels more like the kind of joking that Bolin would do.
    • Korra misusing the Avatar State to win a race, Asami having to work to save her failing company and Bolin becoming a Captain to a Probending team all make sense given what we saw of them in Book 1. In other words, it's like they're trying to make Mako as cool as possible, even if what he's doing clashes with his Book 1 portrayal.

So in addition to getting off scot free for his mistake (And no, just no. Just because everyone makes mistakes is no reason not to improve from them), he's being pretty skillful despite not being a near godlike being/experienced warrior and having a cool job which isn't supported with his Book 1 portrayal (as well as getting to be the first know Firebending Cop). I mean can't he just be average in something he does, as opposed to being the best?

How is he not deemed a Mary Sue?
MrDeath
06:32:05 AM Aug 8th 2013
Because none of that qualifies him as a Mary Sue. "A character I don't like gets to do cool stuff," doesn't make him a Mary Sue.
Hodor
07:35:15 AM Aug 8th 2013
True. Also, while I'm guessing Antiyonder wouldn't be likely accept Word of God on this, the creators have said that in the present setting, it isn't uncommon to be able to lightening bend- Mako and other firebenders use the skill working as low paid blue collar workers, and the creators say that it is very physically draining work.

Now I can't remember if we actually see other firebenders doing it or even Mako at work doing it (I don't think so, but I could be wrong), but the lightening bending is in-universe not supposed to be anything that special anymore.

In terms of cops in general, it does seem kind of strange- personality issues aside, we know there are earthbender/metalbender cops but haven't seen any firebender ones yet- so yeah, you'd probably expect Bolin to be the brother in that profession.

However, it seems plausible to me (or at least this is how I'd write it) that there are probably public safety officials from all of the bending disciplines as well (except airbending of course) as some nonbenders.
Larkmarn
08:13:16 AM Aug 8th 2013
We do see a bunch of Lightning Bending workers. It doesn't even seem to be particularly specialized work, since Mako's still pretty destitute. However, I do think Antiyonger's point was that Mako managed to lightning bend while bloodbent. Which is pretty much "because the plot dictated he did so." Amon was probably still Bloodbending Korra to keep her in place just in case and he just took away her bending. He was overconfident, his attention was divided, and taking away the Avatar's bending has to be at least a little draining, I must say.

Personality-wise it does make a lot of sense to me. He does have a tendency to protect those he cares about, yes. But... those he cares about are doing better now. Bolin's doing better, Korra is essentially a public servant herself (only her boss is, you know, the Universe). And him being a firebending cop ties in very well to the show's themes of a person's ethnicity not determining everything about them. They've been working really hard to subvert bending stereotypes so it's a logical progression.
Antiyonder
11:57:39 AM Aug 8th 2013
  • Ok, I get Amon was distracted, but they hyped Bloodbending to be this gamebreaking move that only priviledged few can overcome. So, if something so simple like distraction can be used against them, then maybe hinting to it before hand should be done.

  • Larkman: Mako's ethnic status isn't why I'm puzzled about him being a cop. It's because personality wise or character wise, nothing suggested that he would consider working for the police force. I mean Bolin being the Captain of a Probending team works, because Bolin genuinely loves the sport. Korra never really grew out of her mentality that power is everything, so I'm not surprised that she'd abuse her powers to win in a race. Asami trying to save her father's company works because it aids in Asami trying to redeem the family name. But Mako's character was given nothing interms of genuine interest outside girls. And the only reason he took care of Bolin is because they're brothers.

"Because none of that qualifies him as a Mary Sue. "A character I don't like gets to do cool stuff," doesn't make him a Mary Sue."

If you're not going to explain the flaws of my comments in better detail beyond "you're wrong", why bother responding? I mean even if I'm wrong, I have to courtesy to at least specify my stance.
Larkmarn
12:26:35 PM Aug 8th 2013
The thing is, your comments aren't really "evidence that he's a Mary Sue" so much as relatively unrelated complaints about Mako. Your comments are flawed because your definition of Mary Sue is wrong. A badass in a World of Badass doing something badass? That's just another day in the Avatar universe. Honestly, Iroh would be a better fit for being a Mary Sue in my book (descendent of popular character, named for an even more popular character, smart, skilled, high ranking at a very young age, the man figured out how to fly a biplane about an hour after learning they exist... not that he needs to, because he can freaking fly on his own). Do I think he's a Mary Sue? No, I just think that he's a badass in a World of Badass.

Here's the way I see Mako: You said it yourself, he's spent pretty much his entire life protecting his loved ones, right? What's happened now? His girlfriend is literally the most powerful fighter on the planet, his brother is off the streets and a successful pro bender, and he's finally got some stability in his life. It's actually pretty similar to Akihiko Sanada, who became a strong fighter in order to protect those he loved. What did he do once he didn't have to protect anyone anymore? He became a cop. But I digress. He's a guy freed from the responsibilities that dictated his actions until now, and recently found himself a major player in defending the city. Is it that weird that he might have, you know, liked that and wanted to keep doing it?
Antiyonder
12:39:23 PM Aug 8th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.4
"Is it that weird that he might have, you know, liked that and wanted to keep doing it?"

If he had been fleshed out better, then no it wouldn't be weird. But here's all we're given for Mako characterwise:
  • Episode 2-4: The desire to keep his brother off the streets. No career plan or hobby.
  • Episode 5-12: His love life. Korra and Asami despite being part of the triangle at least had things outside it going for them.

Not really enough to find his career to be anything other than an attempt to make him cool. And again, his joking style feels more like a ripoff of Bolin than say his own snarky moments of jokes (mainly because his personality at the end of the day is boring, so they had to change it randomly to make him "fun").

But, I'll bite. What would it take for him to qualify as a creator's pet? I mean, having cool things happening to the character, even if it's Mako, would be fine if there was a set up for these cool things, rather than just doing them at random.
MrDeath
01:55:14 PM Aug 8th 2013
Actually fitting the criteria of that trope. I suggest you read it and Mary Sue. All you've listed is your own personal complaints about him, none of which fit either trope.
Antiyonder
02:11:43 PM Aug 8th 2013
Mr Death> Yeah, how about actually telling me why I'm wrong as opposed to just saying "You're wrong"? I'm talking about giving a more direct rebuttal to what I've said.
MrDeath
05:10:02 PM Aug 8th 2013
I've told you why you're wrong a dozen times in this discussion, and I'm not going to repeat myself.
Antiyonder
05:49:28 PM Aug 8th 2013
No. The arguments you responded to dealt with the love triangle.

You've given no imput on the other arguments I provided like the character resisting Bloodbending or having a job which there was no indicator that he would be interested in.
Larkmarn
08:16:53 PM Aug 8th 2013
By your logic, his only non-Ass Pull possible job is "stay at home boyfriend" since you believe his only characterization at the end of the series is "Korra's boyfriend." Which is a bit silly in of itself. And again, he was wide open for doing whatever he likes. I personally think it's a perfectly logical progression to go from "defending the city from internal threats for free" to "defending the city from internal threats for money," especially since, like I said before, he does feel a deep-seeded need to protect people.
MrDeath
09:36:12 PM Aug 8th 2013
Antiyonder: I don't have to provide an argument against because you haven't put up anything at all that resembles an argument for. You've done nothing but list your personal gripes about the character, none of which qualify him for any of the tropes you're trying to stick him with.

The reason I don't provide more detail is that by now it's self-evident that you have no interest in doing anything besides shoehorning in some negative trope on him because you hate the character.

Antiyonder
05:22:25 PM Aug 9th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.6
Then I'll try one last time to explain my stance on the last two comments better. And as for your comment, Larkmarn, I will respond on my second point:

  • Bloodbending is a technique made out to be a gamebreaker move (especially when the user can Bloodbender). The only established way to resist it prior to Endgame was being a stronger Bloodbender or an Avatar using Avatar State. If something so simple like distraction can weaken the Bloodbender, it should be established beforehand than having someone who at best is a glorified athlete (as opposed to a seasoned warrior or a demigod) do so without precedence.
    • Larkman: As for Iroh II, I find his skills plausible if only because he looks to be older and experienced, plus not being orphaned means having a better chance to train and hone any skills he has.

"And again, he was wide open for doing whatever he likes."
  • Which was what exactly? And yeah, being Korra's love interest was the only thing we got from 5-12. At most 2-4 establishes him as a hardworking person who supported his only other family member. No hobbies or any established goals beyond that.

"I personally think it's a perfectly logical progression to go from "defending the city from internal threats for free" to "defending the city from internal threats for money," especially since, like I said before, he does feel a deep-seeded need to protect people."
  • He wasn't defending the city due to some established need to help others in general (by others I mean complete strangers). He helped defend the city, because he was going along with Korra. And before that, his attention was divided more on his girlfriend and his brother. Now, if in the earlier episodes we saw Mako trying to protect other people (on say the streets for instance) from thugs, then him going into that career would feel like an extension of established traits. But the most we get is him helping out people, only on the behalf of someone he's close to (Korra).
Rebochan
04:15:34 PM Aug 29th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.6
You still never established him as a Creator's Pet. You just complained some more about the show. We've literally been through this entire debate before, it's documented on this page from last summer, and you've presented nothing to contradict that except more evidence for why he's The Scrappy (which he's covered by anyway.)

I'm also really not sure how him being a generic cop makes him some kind of anointed one. Just because Bolin isn't? Does the fact that maybe Bolin might not want to be a cop even factor in to this?
MrDeath
08:17:36 AM Sep 6th 2013
I cannot think of where to begin with countering Antiyonder's arguments, mainly because as far as I can tell, they're based on some kind of bizarre logic that is unique to him.

Just because you can only think of him as "Korra's love interest" does not in any way at all come anywhere close to ever remotely meaning that he can't do something else with his life. That argument should be roundly and completely dismissed for being, well, nothing. It amounts to, "I, personally, think he should be relegated to a single dramatic role and nothing else."

Distraction is always going to degrade performance on something that requires concentration, and every single Bending discipline shown in the entirety of the whole show requires concentration. Again, the argument that you need to somehow set up that distracting someone can throw them off is, frankly, nothing.

You're trying to pigeonhole Mako into a role and persona just so that you have more fuel to bash him. Your arguments are, at best, supported only by premises that you are making up entirely.
Larkmarn
08:25:09 AM Sep 6th 2013
I also completely fail to see how "being a cop" is Creator's Pet behavior at all. That's just... unrelated. It's not like being a beat cop is the most glamorous thing in the world.
MrDeath
10:00:06 AM Sep 6th 2013
It's because Mako dating someone excludes him from ever having any other goals or desires, and means that he can't possibly devote any of his time and attention to anything else. He is Korra's boyfriend only, because males are incapable of holding jobs while they're romantically involved. Clearly.
Rebochan
11:20:58 AM Sep 6th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.4
Actually, it's because part of the fandom thought Bolin would inevitably become a metalbending cop because clearly since he's an Earthbender, he'll of course be a metalbender cop. So when it comes out in a preview that Mako became a non-metalbending cop and Bolin tried to stay an athelete (you know, things that are more in character for their personalities as established by the end of the first season), this apparently meant Mako was being given favoritism somehow.

Just like how Mako being able to briefly break out of being bloodbent was not actually used to prove to the viewer that it was possible with enough focus from the victim (and thus foreshadowing that Korra could do this as well), but Mako overshadowing Korra with the creator's worship of him and his awesomeness.

Mako saying "I love you" is not, you know, a message of support to someone experiencing their deepest emotional crisis and feeling of isolation. It's a supreme act of selfishness that you would only say to manipulate and control another human being!

Even being able to lightning bend to the level of blue-collar grunt labor is proof that Mako is an anointed character (as opposed to simply showing that a lot of people are capable of a very basic grasp of it.)
Hodor
12:56:13 PM Sep 6th 2013
RE the cop thing, a lot of people (myself included) got the impression that all cops in the city were metalbendenders and that Mako was going to be the first non-metalbender cop. I don't know if this is necessarily accurate- someone noted that the cop that chases Korra at the beginning is apparently a non-bender- but at least in the first season, it seems like the "elite cops" had been exclusively metalbenders up to that point and that Mako was being asked to join on that group.
Larkmarn
01:27:28 PM Sep 6th 2013
Interesting. I didn't realize people thought that. I just felt like the Metalbending Corps was one particular unit in the police department... but it's good to hear that there's at least... some rationalization other than "HE'S A COP! CREATORSPET!" even if I think it's still pretty flimsy.
Rebochan
02:06:04 PM Sep 6th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.8
For what it's worth, I'd imagine that they can't rely exclusively on metalbenders, but obviously the show largely just showed the metalbending forces because most of the situations they were used for required it. Or possibly by Book 2, they've come to that realization now that there's technology designed specifically to combat metal benders, they need to diversify their police force and Mako signed on.

But even the entry on the page as it is now notes the MAIN reason people were mad was just because they wanted Bolin to be a cop instead.

Anyway, this is enough of the long, long, long derail. I think we can call this safely as Mako is still not a Creator's Pet as of the end of Book 1 and what we know of Book 2. His status as a Base Breaker and The Scrappy is well documented by now.
Hodor
02:32:36 PM Sep 6th 2013
I think it would be really cool to show different divisions with different specialties (my personal suggestions are firebenders who work as firefighters- partly a joke based on Literature/Fahrenheit451; also, a nonbender group that is a composite of the Kyoshi Warriors and the Dai Li).

" Or possibly by Book 2, they've come to that realization now that there's technology designed specifically to combat metal benders, they need to diversify their police force and Mako signed on."

That makes a lot of sense. Still, I think it is understandable that if the norm has been for cops to exclusively be metalbenders, then personality issues aside, you'd definitely expect Bolin, not Mako to be the cop in the family.
Rebochan
02:46:15 PM Sep 6th 2013
If by purely bending? Sure. And I assume this is why the fans just assumed the storyline would happen, as it is the simplest (and least original) story arc for Bolin to go through.
Baroxio
02:48:01 PM Sep 13th 2013
edited by 128.59.150.204
Getting back to the point at hand, a Creator's Pet has to satisfy the following:

Hated by fans (The Scrappy) Loved (or worshipped) by the writers Put into big scenes for no reason (Character Focus) Talked up by the other characters (Character Shilling)

The question is whether or not Mako satisfies all of the above criteria.

1.) Hated by fans (The Scrappy)

This should be self-evident; Mako is already listed under The Scrappy, so this one checks out.

2.) Loved (or worshipped) by the writers

The seeming point of contention, this is essentially the reason given for the next two complaints, and there are several pieces of evidence that point to this being the case.

First, that Mako was given the name of a character the creators admired; in the Creator's Pet article, it specifically mentions such behavior as a primary reason driving force behind a Creator's attachment to an unliked character: "Sometimes, however, the creator(s) have become so attached to this character for whatever reason, whether because they see something of themselves in the character or the character reminds them of someone they were close to or the character represents something they admire, they..."

Furthermore, the Creators have not only gone through the trouble of attempting to explain Mako's actions ("he's a teenager"/"he's had a rough childhood") and address the hate he's received ("for all of you who still hate Mako"), but demeans people critical of Mako as either "angry shippers" or too young to understand ("Wait till you get to college and love 2 girls").

It seems pretty clear that Mako is loved by the Creators of the show considering just how far and how often they are willing to go out of their way to defend him both within the show and in real life. This point can't really be argued against, especially since it directly leads in to the next two points.

3.) Put into big scenes for no reason (Character Focus)

Mako was the one who joined Korra in the finale, against what was assumed to be Korra's final one-on-one opponent (i.e. what had been up till now presented as "the Avatar's duty," not "the Avatar and her boyfriend's duty").

Furthermore, saving Mako from being debent was what unlocked Korra's powers, not anything she learned in her training up until now, not her attempting to be more spritual and contacting her predecessors, it's saving Mako. Even if you play up the "love" angle, since saving her psudeo-father figure and Airbending mentor, Tenzin (and his family) had no effect on her acquiring airbending, does that mean that Korra simply doesn't love them enough?

In both the final battle against Amon, and in Korra unlocking her Airbending, Mako is never once alluded to being a necessary component for the battle until the point he is in them. In other words, he was put into big, important scenes for no reason. Another check.

4.) Talked up by the other characters (Character Shilling)

"I'm impressed. No one has ever gotten the better of me like that." —Amon

Amon has never complimented a bender skills before, and we were led to believe that he hated bending in general. Praising Mako's skills here is nothing more than Character Shilling.

"Beifong said if I keep up the good work I could be a detective soon." —mako

Season 2 example, aside from the issue of why Mako is a cop, not only had he caused property damage in his apprehension of the crooks in a way almost directly comparable to Korra when she first arrives in the city (something AVATAR Korra was arrested for), but there's also the fact that he's been on the force for, at most, 6 months. The fact that Mako is excelling unrealistically fast in his job to the point where Lin Beifong is able to completely do a 180 on her previous stance against reckless property damage is again, Character Shilling.

So Mako is once more, hated by the fans, loved by the creators, forced into big scenes and talked up by the other characters.

Mako, is a Creator's Pet.
Hodor
03:03:31 PM Sep 13th 2013
Hmm, let's see:

1. Yeah, no argument there, he's definitely The Scrappy.

2. I think its more that they don't get why he's hated so much (since he is basically a good guy), then that they love him. And they've gone beyond just Mako's behavior in commenting how a lot of the relationship stuff, while not placing the cast in the best light, was true to their own experiences.

3. I don't know about this one. Seems like just following precedent from the first series in that anyone on "Team Avatar" is going to be helping out in fight scenes- sort of a narrative convention I guess.

4. I actually do agree that Mako seems to be too clearly written to be a "cool guy" (and Bolin was too much of a loser in the first season)- which explains a lot of the hate. However, Amon is generally a very Faux Affably Evil character- doesn't seem that odd for him to engage in Baddie Flattery, especially given his true identity.

Not sure so much about the cop one- I'd wait and see how that plot plays out.
ANewMan
08:52:29 AM Sep 14th 2013
I really think Mako fitting the Creator's Pet criteria is unarguable now.
Baroxio
12:24:47 PM Sep 14th 2013
edited by 128.59.150.204
Okay, so number 1 is accepted and number 4 is on hold. Fine.

Let's talk about #3 first.

3.) Put into big scenes for no reason (Character Focus)

"I don't know about this one. Seems like just following precedent from the first series in that anyone on "Team Avatar" is going to be helping out in fight scenes- sort of a narrative convention I guess."

We're talking about the FINAL BATTLE here, though. In At LA, the series was always presented as having a final 1-on-1 battle between Aang and the Fire Lord from the very begining. This battle was delivered upon, like in most media where the major protagonist dukes it out against the major antagonist.

However, in Lo K, the presentation is that Amon is a threat that Korra will have to eventually defeat on her own (again, Avatar's duty). That's not to say she can't have friends helping her (Aang's friends helped in other ways against other opponents, just like Bolin, Asami and Iroh did), just that the final battle was always going to be Korra vs Amon.

Shoving Mako in there gives him unnecessary Character Focus.

The other point is pretty much the same: The series presents the plot as Korra learning airbending and Korra defeating Amon, do you agree?

However, not only does Mako help her defeat Amon, Mako helps her learn Airbending too! The unnecessary Character Focus becomes agregious when you realize that Mako had nothing to do with Korra's airbending up until that point. Mako never helped her with Airbender movements (if anything, Bolin did the most work there), Mako never helped her with her spirituality or in contacting the past Avatars, yet he is somehow the key to unlocking her bending.

The argument given by the show, that Korra's bending was unlocked by love, is weak considering that love was never shown to be a requirement for Airbending, making all the training she did in the entire show worthless.

It also doesn't even explain why she doesn't unlock her Airbending when Tenzin and his family, the last Airbenders in the entire world, are about to be permanently debent. Wasn't Tenzin her mentor, guider and all-around psudeo-father figure in the story? Are we supposed to believe that she's clsoer to Mako when she and him barely have any moments when they aren't arguing or acting akward around each other?

The creators themseleves admit to thinking about putting the "Korra unlocking Airbending" scene earlier (likely when Tenzin and his family were kidnapped) but decided that this would be better for whatever reason (more Mako?).

I think Mako's unnecessary addition in the finale as the key to culminaton of the entire plot's story is more than worth the title of Character Focus, don't you?

As for #2

2.)Loved (or worshipped) by the writers

"I think its more that they don't get why he's hated so much (since he is basically a good guy), then that they love him."

From the Creator's Pet page:

"Sometimes, however, the creator(s) have become so attached to this character for whatever reason, whether because they see something of themselves in the character or the character reminds them of someone they were close to or the character represents something they admire, that they decide to increasingly focus on him, magnifying the importance of his role, and having the other characters talk about how awesome he is, in painful ignorance of — or sometimes in spite of — the fans' obvious hatred."—Creator's Pet

If you don't think Mako qualifies as being "loved" by the Creators of the show (though you agree he was written from the beginning to be a "cool guy" while Bolin was written to be a "loser") then please give an example that better coincides with that excerpt from the Creator's Pet page and explain where mako falls short, cuz as far as I can see, he's a prefect fit.

As for this: "And they've gone beyond just Mako's behavior in commenting how a lot of the relationship stuff, while not placing the cast in the best light, was true to their own experiences."

I would just like to point out, in a complete aside from proving Mako to be a Creator's Pet, that it was not that Mako's actions are unrealistic; liking 2 girls, attempting to hide it from the other girl, stringing both girls along, this all happens in real life.

What doesn't happen in real life is the complete lack of consequence or comeuppance once the lies are discovered. Asami breaks it off with Mako specifically only after he's sure he wants to be with Korra (despite him continuing to string Asami along), who luckily enough, has yet to get over him, didn't mind waiting and is completely happy to get together with him immediately afterwards. Even then, Asami isn't even a bitch about it (she has more than full rights to be), choosing to remain friends rather than leaving forever, or getting mad or upset. And this is somebody for whom she betrayed her only living relative, in the process giving up everything she ever had and was accustomed to. Does any of the above sound like real life experiences to you?

What's unrealistic is how the situation Mako is in never lends itself to calling him out on his flaws, which in turn never leads to a point of growth. Instead, the story almost bends itself backwards to make sure things turn out okay for him in the end. Pretty much par for the course for a Creator's Pet though.
blackflamerose
03:21:06 PM Sep 14th 2013
edited by 72.241.173.4
;;reads this entire thread, Face Palm;; Ok, Asami didn't betray Hiroshi in the slightest, Hiroshi betrayed HER; not only was he in cahoots with a terrorist organization, he had tried to KILL her and her friends on multiple occasions. I can't see anything Asami did regarding him as betrayal at all; actually, I think she was a bit too lenient with him. She didn't cut ties with him for Mako, she cut ties because Hiroshi had been Jumping Off the Slippery Slope.

Also, Asami didn't break it off with Mako when she did because she saw he was ready to go for Korra; as I remember, he and Korra were about to embark on the mission to confront Amon, and there was a good chance neither one would come back alive, so it would make sense that she'd want to ensure that everything between she and Mako was resolved. Would anyone want the (possibly) last thing they ever said to someone to be something angry or bitchy? I know I wouldn't. On the subject of Korra, I think trying to retake the city from a crazy bloodbender ranked higher on her priority list than hooking up with the guy who had JUST been through a breakup.

So, no, Mako STILL doesn't fit the criteria as a Creator's Pet, and it is frankly astounding how the facts from the show are being twisted so far out of context to make him look bad. Am I arguing he's a saint? No. But trying to negate a Crowning Moment of Awesome for Korra (accessing airbending) because she did it for Mako is nuts. Character Focus? When Korra has quite literally just been Mind Raped and doesn't want to see it happen to anyone else? If it had been used earlier there'd be no real impact. They'd basically would have had to write a completely different ending if she'd unlocked airbending when Tenzin and the kids were kidnapped. Without having lost all her other bending she'd have Curb Stomped Amon, and we'd have never gotten the Murder-Suicide, which quite frankly took my breath away. Aang would go into the Avatar state when Katara was threatened. Is that Character Focus now? Because I honestly don't see a difference.
Baroxio
02:34:32 AM Sep 15th 2013
edited by 128.59.150.204
I don't think you've read my post clearly, blackflamerose.

First thing, whether Asami betrayed Hiroshi or vice versa is completely irrelevant to the point I was making at the time, which itself was, as I put it: "in a complete aside from proving Mako to be a Creator's Pet." Similarily, the situation with Mako and Asami, while incredibly misrepresented in your post, also has little to do with Mako being a Creator's Pet.

That's first.

Now, let's get on to your attempt to say that he isn't a Creator's Pet (i.e. let's get back tot he point of this conversation).

Your "argument" if it could even be called that was on the point of Mako's Character's Focus. I'll say it again, condense the plot of the season into one sentence, and you get that the story is about Korra fulfilling her duty as the Avatar by learning airbending and bringing balance to the world by defeating Amon. It's pretty much in the title: Avatar Legend of Korra.

Now, the story sets up these two goals as the centerpiece of the story, but the problem is that it shoehorns Mako as a key component of both of these quests at the last minute. If Mako had greater significance to the plot and there was a specific plot based reason that Mako should be the key component of the show's entire premise, then this wouldn't be Character Focus. However, his only ties to the plot are that he's a bender, and that he's the Avatar's boyfriend. He is not presented as necessary to Korra attaining Airbending or to Korra defeating Amon, yet he happens to be just that for no good reason i.e Character Focus.

You brought up the issue of Katara having Character Focus; while I could no doubt endlessly debate the extents to whether or not Katara recieves "unnecessary" Character Focus, A.) It doesn't matter if she has Character Focus or not, since to be a Creator's Pet you need to have all 4 problems, and as far as I know she isn't a Scrappy, and the narrative (i.e. the Creator) calls her out on her bullshit.

Then there's B.) Whether or not Katara has Character Focus, or is even a Creator's Pet herself, has absolutely nothing to do with Mako being a Creator's Pet.

Let me tell you what you can do though. Look through the Creator's Pet page for Western Animation. Find a single character on that list who fits the bill more than Mako does, and then tell me where Mako falls short.

Because if anything, Mako fits the page a lot better than most of the examples currently listed.
blackflamerose
09:09:40 AM Sep 15th 2013
edited by 72.241.173.4
...Ok, no need to get condescending. Let me ask you this, if Mako had not been there when Korra lost her bending, what would have happened? As shown, she unlocks airbending when Mako is about to lose his. If he hadn't been there? Given the characterization of Korra to that point? I think she would have given up. She'd have completely failed as the Avatar(she thinks) and now the Equalists had nothing stopping them, so why bother? At that point, she could not access the Avatar state or airbending, and there's no way she'd be in the proper state of mind for the Aang ex Machina of the ending. Mako is crucial to the mission of stopping Amon because he gives Korra motivation to keep going after she loses her bending. Also, I'd always seen them infiltrating the base as a callback/Book Ends to "The Revelation". Korra first became aware of Amon and his debending while infiltrating the Equalists with Mako, so she ends it while infiltrating the Equalists with Mako. So, actually, Mako is absolutely necessary to both attaining airbending and defeating Amon, no shoehorning required, and as such he fails criterium #3.

Mako also has the distinction of being the "Avatar's love interest" and as such plays the exact same role Katara did in Last Airbender. Hence why I brought her up in my last post. This is nothing new or unusual. Aang goes into Avatar state for Katara, Korra unlocks airbending for Mako.

And just to humor you, I checked the Creator's Pet page. Lisa Simpson fits pretty much perfectly. Also both Kai Leng and Diana Allers from Mass Effect 3. Mako is nowhere NEAR as obnoxious as any of them.
Baroxio
12:21:54 PM Sep 15th 2013
"Mako is crucial to the mission of stopping Amon because he gives Korra motivation to keep going after she loses her bending."

...I'm not sure if there's a more deliate way to put this, but THIS. IS. THE. PROBLEM.

The writers created a scenario where Mako was crucial to the resolution of the plot without giving him the necessary relevance prior to that. This is practically the definition of the term Character Focus.

Mako has no specific beef with Amon that every other bender wouldn't have, and he's never once helped or even been a part of Korra's airbending training throughout the series. Shoving him into the very climax of both arcs as a necessary component is ridiculous Character Focus when there's no reason he, Mako, had to go there and not say, Bolin or Asami. Hell, Asami being a non-bender and all has more of a right to face and repudiate Amon then Mako does, because she actually has ties to the nonbender-vs-bender storyline.

Again, I'm not saying that Mako wasn't needed in that fight, I'm saying that he shouldn't have been needed in that fight, at least not with the way the series is presented (The Avatar filling her duty; Legend of the Avatar, not Legend of the Avatar and her Boyfriend).

Now, concerning Lisa Simpson (I haven't played Mass Effect), I'm not sure if you knew this, but being obnoxious is not a requirement for being a Creator's Pet. As it is now, Lisa gets remarkably little screentime, and recent episodes of her often have her failing miserably or making things worse. She may have started out as a Creator's Pet, but the beauty of having multiple writers for different episodes is that such a thing rarely lasts.

Looking at other characters on the page, most of them are there simply from getting too muh screentime while being a Karma Houdini. This was enough for characters like Owen and Sam from TDI & Danny Phantom to be put on the list.

Does Mako not get too much screentime,and is he not also a huge Karma Houdini? If you believe otherwise, I would like you to read this fan's post analyzing Episode 9 alone:

http://boxlunches.tumblr.com/post/24876437494/disclaimer-last-weeks-episode-was-pretty-awesome-in

Rebochan
12:55:51 PM Sep 15th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.2
All I'm seeing is a lot of people that are still trying to Square Peg Round Trope this guy because they still really hate a fictional character.

And pointing out crappy examples of Creator's Pet on the Creator's Pet page doesn't make Mako a good example - it makes those crappy examples that need to be removed.

Your entire argument boils down to "I don't like this character and because he is still part of the show in spite of me not liking him, I declare him a Creator's Pet." You're rehasing arguments we've already had, bringing up points we've already discussed to death, and like the rest of the people still trying to mash this into the page by sheer force of will, inventing plot points that don't happen or ignoring scenes where the things you complain about are explicitly being countered.

EDIT: Oh holy hell, is the Creator's Pet page really that out of hand again? I just looked at both the entries being used as "proof" that Mako belongs there and they were terrible. I've gone back and pulled them accordingly.
blackflamerose
02:43:16 PM Sep 15th 2013
@Rebochan: I just think it's hilarious that my point of Mako being crucial to the climax was begrudgingly agreed with, but with the caveat of "but, but he shouldn't have been!" Again, I always read that fight and the infiltration in "The Revelation" as Book Ends. An example of Good Writing is now considered bad because That One Character is in it? Yeah, I can't take this thread seriously.
Rebochan
02:51:07 PM Sep 15th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.2
All right, I have some more time to dissect this one last time.

  1. The Scrappy. Undisputed, thanks.
  2. Loved by the creators. Nope, still hasn't been established. When you stop taking their comments out of context instead of the little chunks we're getting here to try and make him some kind of god, all you get is the creators establishing that they felt a storyline was misinterpreted. Seeing how in the show itself, Mako's girlfriend does call out his attitude and is presented as correct, you cannot also claim that he's a Karma Houdini simply because he broke up with his girlfriend he'd been dating all of a month or so and successfully started a relationship with the person he was actually interested in. And admitted and apologized to her. Not to mention that the same damn commentary also acknowledged their awareness of the character's controversy.
  3. Nope, that's still not Character Focus. Mako is not in a scene for "no reason" at any point of this show. Claiming that he is being written to be important is not "Character Focus" either - otherwise literally any character you don't like that is important to a storyline is getting "Character Focus." Pointing out that the show could have been massively rewritten to remove him is rather silly, and your link to a fan editorial complaining about how they don't like Mako is still not establishing Character Focus.
  4. Your Character Shilling is laughable at best. Character Shilling is when secondary characters start overstating or overselling a character who clearly is not actually living up to what they are saying - but the story wants us to think they are. Mako has just done something that Amon did not believe possible. He has earned a sentence of acknowledgement, yes? Furthermore, as I already said further up, it's a far less impressive feat when Korra does it too. The entire point of that scene wasn't "Mako is so cool he broke Amon's bloodbending!" It was "Someone who focuses hard enough can break out of blood bending with or without the Avatar state." Your complaining that that person is Mako does not count - we already know you hate his guts, that's not this trope. Furthermore, Mako stating that he is doing well at work is an estimation of his own abilities. That's not Character Shilling and given what we just saw before the scene, he managed to capture the criminals with a minimal amount of unnecessary property damage. We can reasonably assume that the statement he has made about himself is backed up by the plot. And your complaint about Lin being out of character in that front doesn't hold water either - Lin arrested Korra for being an armed, reckless vigilant that tore up a street without any authority but her own. Mako was a licensed officer of the law arresting someone using bending - which, I hate to break it to you, is what the Metalbenders are already doing.
Hodor
03:09:17 PM Sep 15th 2013
One thing I was also going to add is that you can't really compare Lin's attitude toward Korra in the first episode with Lin's attitude further down the line (outside of the fact that as you mention, in that instance, Mako was official law enforcement).

Korra was (and honestly still kind of is) pretty obnoxious in her introduction to Lin and Lin also had that bad blood with Tenzin. Later on, Lin softens a bit and never really had bad blood toward the rest of the Krew (just Korra and Tenzin), so it isn't that surprising Lin would respond positively toward Mako.

Also, I'm not sure if the show will ever address this (I'd like them too, although it would probably make people hate Mako even more), but I think we are to infer that in his past, Mako was involved in a lot of fighting on the street and likely some violent criminal activity. That's why he has combat skills and the more sheltered Bolin doesn't. I mean it was addressed above how Mako's lightning-bending is nothing special in universe, but to the extent he is a good fighter, it is understandable based on his backstory.

And it isn't just Mako who is given backstotry to make him a great fighter (because the narrative demands it). Asami also happens to be a very skilled fighter thanks to her paranoid father encouraging her to learn self-defense.

Ironeye
moderator
03:16:14 PM Sep 15th 2013
The problem with calling Mako a Creator's Pet is very much criterion #3. I'm not at all going to deny that he's not a particularly well-written character or that the creators don't like him. That being said, he has always been presented as the #2 character (or maybe #3 after Tenzin) in the entire show. While we can spend all day complaining about his romance with Korra being poorly-handled, the love triangles taking up too much time, and Bolin getting the short end of the character development stick, it won't change that Mako's relationship with Korra was always presented as one of the most important parts of the show.

Given:
  • Mako has always been one of the three characters with the most focus;
  • Mako and Korra's relationship has always been presented as a focus of the show; and
  • There was never a requirement that Korra's fight against Amon be a "solo round";
it is entirely natural for his relationship with Korra to play a role in the final confrontation. Had the relationship been better-written, we wouldn't have had a problem with him being there. His role in the plot does not exceed what would be appropriate with what the writers had always been trying to do with the character, and while we can fault them for whiffing on the quality of the setup, we can't deny that the setup was always there.

That's what I think the crux of the 3rd criterion is: if this character were better-written (i.e. not The Scrappy) would they still be considered to have ended up in scenes where they don't belong? In this case, no. The setup was all there, and while it was also always presented that Korra would have to face Amon—it's a key part of her character growth and of her role as the protagonist—it was never presented that there must be no other characters in the scene (see also: the Lieutenant).
Baroxio
07:54:13 AM Sep 16th 2013
edited by 128.59.149.20
@Rebochan, The word "hate" seems to get thrown around a lot here, and I think that's rather unkind. People who criticize a character don't necessarily hate the character.

I for one, don't "hate" Mako, I just don't care for him. The person who I linked to didn't "hate" Mako, and actually loved the series. People can critic without hating a character.

That said, rather than going through your list and responding point for point on what can be a very subjective matter, I'm going to ask you to come up with a better example than Mako on the Creator's Pet Western Animation Page. Because most of what I see there is more than enough to put Mako on the list.

If you want to nuke the page as a list of bad examples, so be it, but they all have multiple things in common with Mako to the point where I can replace a few names and have things fit.

"Taffy the babysitter from Rugrats was praised by all the characters in the show, but not so much love from the fans as she clearly existed so Amanda Bynes could star in another Nickelodeon show."

Mako the firebender from Lo K was praised by all the characters in the show, but not so much love from the fans as he clearly existed as homage to late voice actor Mako Iwatsu.

Are you going to remove that one as well?

Now, @ Ironeye

I would disagree with your listed givens.

1.)"Mako has always been one of the three characters with the most focus;"

Mako was introduced at the same time as Bolin. Can you honestly tell me you saw from the beginning that he would get so much more focus than Bolin did?

Can you honestly tell me that the show presented him early on as an important element to the main goals of Korra learning airbending and defeating Amon?

Let's focus on airbending specifically, we are told that Korra needs to learn airbending, who is that is supposed to teach her? Mako? No, Tenzin.

Tenzin tries to instruct her on airbending movements, but she learns better from pro-bending. Is it Mako who shows her the importance of avoidance in combat? No, Bolin.

Tenzin instructs Korra to become more spiritual in an attempt to contact Aang. Does Mako help her do this in any way? No, she manages to contact Aang completely on her own when trapped in the metal box.

So tell me, how does Mako being the key to Korra unlocking her airbending seem like a natural progression of events?

Korra unlocking airbending on her own through connecting with her own spirituality would be a natural progression of events, since she did it before.

Korra unlocking airbending through Tenzin's help would be a natural progression of events since she's worked with Tenzin before.

Korra unlocking airbending through advice from Bolin would be a natural progression of events since she's recieved important advice from him before.

Korra unlocking airbending because Mako is in trouble is not a natural progression of events, since there were many times he and the people close to her were in trouble without her unlocking airbending (vs the mechas for one, where everybody she cares about is lying beaten on the floor to be electrocuted or worse).

The fact that Mako's last minute plot importance is not a natural progression of events makes it an example of Character Focus.

2.) "Mako and Korra's relationship has always been presented as a focus of the show;"

But it was not preseneted as the plot the story sets up originally. What we learn from Episode 1 is that

A.) Korra needs to learn airbending to become a fully realized Avatar, which is the Avatar's Duty to become; and

B.) Republic City is unbalanced, and it's the Avatar's duty to bring balance to the world.

These are the two reasons why Korra is even in Republic City in the first place. Notice that "finding a boyfriend" is not listed as a reason and therefore not part of the overarching plot that the story is trying to resolve.

That Mako is shoehorned into the resolution of these two things that were protrayed as the "Avatar's Duty" is an example of Character Focus.

3.)"There was never a requirement that Korra's fight against Amon be a "solo round";"

Let me share with you an excerpt from the previous series, taken from the transcript of "Day of Black Sun Part 2"

Zuko: But I've come to an even more important decision. [Closes eyes and momentarily pauses.] I'm gonna join the Avatar and I'm going to help him defeat you.

Ozai:[Smugly.] Really? Since you're a full-blown traitor now and you want me gone, why wait? I'm powerless. You've got your swords. Why don't you just do it now?

Zuko: Because I know my own destiny. Taking you down is the Avatar's destiny. [Puts his swords away.]

One of the key themes in both At LA and Lo K is the issue of the Avatar's destiny and the Avatar's Duty. The things specified as such are taken to mean things that have to do alone.

You can say that this was from another series, but Korra puts emphasis on her duty as the Avatar all the time (coming to Republic City, saving those people "You're our Avatar too", even in Season 2 with "the south is spiritually unbalanced, yada yada yada").

These are all things that are taken to mean that Korra will be handling the issue in a one on one combat. Note that this does not mean that her friends will stand around and do nothing, but that her friends will play important roles elsewhere in the story, such as how the G Aang may not have helped fight Ozai (the Avatar's Duty), but the jobs they did were of equal importance in taking him down.

The requirement that Amon vs. Korra would be a 1-v-1 was set up since the first episode, and is a natural progression of events.

Interesting to note, you can argue that Korra needing friends and people to help her was an important story element at one point, but in that case she should have brought all of her friends to better hit the message of needing help, instead of just her boyfriend.

Mako being the Scrappy or terribly written actually has very little to do with the fact that if the story followed a natural progression of events, he wouldn't be the necessary component in the overarching plot that was presented as strictly Korra's, the Avatar's, Duty.

Avatar's Duty =/= Avatar & her Boyfriend's Duty

Nobody, including the better written characters, should be involved with the Avatar's Duty, save the Avatar herself.

MrDeath
08:24:36 AM Sep 16th 2013
No, you cannot make up a bunch of rules for the show out of wholecloth and say that makes him a creator's pet.

The synopsis of the first episode does not preclude other plot threads from having importance. The very idea of this even being a point of evidence is completely ridiculous.

The requirement that Amon vs. Korra would be a 1-v-1 was set up since the first episode, and is a natural progression of events.

This is completely made up by you, and never once was a "requirement" anywhere else.

Nobody, including the better written characters, should be involved with the Avatar's Duty, save the Avatar herself.

That sentence is completely and utterly ridiculous, and only shows that you are letting this vendetta against Mako cloud your entire understanding about the entirety of both shows. Both shows were as much about the Avatar and their relationships as they were about the Avatar's duty.

Every post you make only makes it more and more clear that you are more interested in having Mako listed under a shoehorned negative trope than you are about the actual tropes in the show. You've moved on, now, to completely making things up as supposed rules for the series that have never once been indicated in any fashion to be in play.
Larkmarn
08:47:33 AM Sep 16th 2013
Ozai had to be defeated by the Avatar because of politics more than anything else. Ozai was the rightful leader of the Fire Nation, which was on the eve of winning a century-long war. If he were suddenly supplanted by his son or brother, it would be seen as usurping and they wouldn't be seen as the rightful leader. Iroh spells that out explicitly when Zuko asks if he could defeat Ozai. That's a very different situation than defeating Amon. Pretty sure that Korra would've been fine with Tarrlok taking Amon down. Korra's duty was stopping the Equalists first and foremost, using whatever means she deemed fit (including allies). Not winning a 1v1 fight with Amon. That comes from absolutely nowhere. It would've been quite stupid to let him win simply for the sake of having a 1v1 fight. Hell, there was an entire episode about how that was a stupid idea and that she should accept other people's help and NOT try to take him on her own ("The Voice In The Night").
Deadbeatloser22
moderator
09:57:15 AM Sep 16th 2013
ENOUGH. The presence of a deuteragonist in a scene does not make said deuteragonist a Creator's Pet. We're putting our foot down on this one.
Baroxio
10:17:24 AM Sep 16th 2013
edited by 128.59.147.77
Why exactly is Mako a Deuteragonist when compared to say, Bolin or Asami? Aside from the very final battle itself (i.e. the point of contention), he's done essentially everything with the group.

He doesn't have a character arc like Korra, we aren't shown much of him outside of which chick he wants to bang.

Mako is a deuteragonist only in the sense of relationships and nothing more; when it comes to Amon he has no special case in the fight against Amon that other characters don't have (if anything Asami is more of a deuteragonist in that regards), and when it comes to Korra's airbending he offers nothing to that plot thread whatsoever (that honor belongs to Tenzin). So how exactly is he a deuteragonist deserving of more character focus in the resolution of those plot threads then Asami or Bolin or even Tenzin?

Let me reiterate, I don't hate the character. I just think a lot of people are letting their love of him cloud them from what appears to be an obvious truth. Everything I say seems to get denigerated into mindless "hate" when I honestly don't care much for him either way. Furthermore I have not attacked people's opinions like others are attacking mine; the most you could argue I said negatively was that blackflamerose did not fully read my post.

I do not believe I have spoken out of turn in any way and I believe that most of what is listed under the Creator's Pet page can easily be applied to Mako almost word for word.
Larkmarn
10:23:07 AM Sep 16th 2013
You can't in one breath complain about the fact he had more focus than Bolin, and then in the next claim that he didn't have any more focus than the rest of the group. That's exceedingly inconsistent.
Hodor
10:33:45 AM Sep 16th 2013
edited by 167.165.222.32
Others have responded better than I can but a few thoughts:

I think to some degree Mako may be the deuteragonist because of his relationship with Korra.

Like I really do think that there was sort of bad writing- its like LOK was following in the footsteps of ATLA in having the Avatar assisted by a team and to some extent it felt less organic. Because Mako was the Avatar's boyfriend, it probably got him more of an important combat role.

Mako and Bolin started out in the same position, but because the creators chose to make Mako the romantic interest and emphasized Bolin's role as a Butt Monkey, Mako got to be the one fighting Amon.

If Bolin had been received that development instead, we'd probably have threads here about how Bolin is a Creator's Pet (well, maybe not). You can of course complain that he and not Bolin is the deuteragonist (many do for good and not so good reasons), but since Mako is the deuteragonist, he does the stuff expected of that role.

I'm also going to put it out there that you have to take into account that this series was originally going to be an OVA before it was renewed. Character Development definitely suffered all around, and you can see some efforts to fix things in the second season. Basically, the creators put the show out there and then after that received fan reaction. If Mako was a Creator's Pet, you'd have fans hating him and the creators continuing to promote him season after season.

Also, I forget when that fight with Amon happens (was it before or after The Reveal about Amon's powers?). In any case though, I think that was less to show Mako as powerful and more about showing the limits of Amon's powers (so that it would be less of an Ass Pull that Korra could defeat him/restore others' bending).
Baroxio
12:47:44 PM Sep 16th 2013
edited by 128.59.150.228
@ Larkman, there's a difference between "focus" and "relevance."

If there wasn't, the Romantic Plot Tumor trope wouldn't exist.

That said, Mako was completely irrelevant to Korra learning how to airbend, up until he became the very reason she could finally airbend. That is the crux of what I'm trying to point out.

A better explanation of the two brothers would be that they started off with the same amount of relevance (part of the G Aang, potential love interests), but Mako simply ended up with much more Character Focus, which led to his seemingly-out-of-nowhere plot relevance at literally the last minute.

EDIT: Actually, I think the way Hodor puts it is best.

"Mako and Bolin started out in the same position, but because the creators chose to make Mako the romantic interest and emphasized Bolin's role as a Butt Monkey, Mako got to be the one fighting Amon."
Rebochan
01:04:46 PM Sep 16th 2013
"Larkman, there's a difference between "focus" and "relevance."

One that you're continuing to ignore in spite of two different moderators coming in here to kill this.

You can complain that you don't like Mako. You can complain that you don't like how he was used in the story. There is a perfectly good forum thread where I'm sure you'll find good company.

We've more than established that Mako is not a Creator's Pet, he is not getting Character Focus, he is not getting Character Shilling, and frankly, its even debatable if he's "loved" by the creators to some unreasonable extent.
MrDeath
01:08:58 PM Sep 16th 2013
Which is still not evidence that he is a Creator's Pet. The mods have put their foot down on this. Twice. Let it be.
Baroxio
03:40:17 PM Sep 16th 2013
edited by 128.59.150.228
I'm not complaining about not liking Mako. My feelings regarding him are not in my posts whatsoever.

But rather than arguing incessantly, if you don't think Mako is a Creator's Pet, then explain to me who on the Creator's Pet list is a Creator's Pet, why they are Creator's Pets and why Mako lacks that criteria.

This is the third time I've asked you to do that, Rebochan.

Until then, I'll continue to argue that Mako fits the criteria by which all of the other Creator's Pet examples are judged.

Speaking of which, aside from Mako's last minute plot relevance, his actions in Episode 9 when Korra is missing is actually another clear example of Character Focus.

Other people have gone into depth on this episode, including the person i linked to earlier, but a small summary of the problems is that Mako is the only person who reacts strongly to Korra being gone, not Bolin, who got drunk off noodles for her maybe a week ago, not Lin, who had saved her previously and was steadily building up a begrudging respect for her, not even Tenzin, her replacement father figure, the man whose arms she cried into, and the son of her past life. Why is Mako so much more concerned then they are?

Nobody says a word when Mako is about to burn of the innocent Equalist's face; not Bolin and Asami, both of whom lost a parent to a firebender (a really good reason Mako should be stopping himself, actually), not Lin, a police officer with a strong moral code, and not even Tenzin, who is a vegetarian who is taught that all life is sacred by the past Avatar, the dude who spared crazy genocidal maniac Ozai. Mako even brags about this moment to Korra as being the moment when he realized that he loved her!

This is a case of Mako's Character Focus drowning out the other characters. It's literally Spotlight-Stealing Squad, which occurs as a result of too much Character Focus.

The same thing even happens again when Mako must be the one to carry Korra to "give her space" and in doing so pushes away Asami, his girlfriend, Bolin, his "supposedly" love-sick brother, Lin, a police officer who would no doubt have some basic emergency medical care, and Tenzin, her psudo father figure.

Again, all the other non-Mako characters are Out of Focus for Mako's big moment, to the point of Character Derailment. You have to admit, that in this episode at least, Mako had too much Character Focus (not that too much is the criteria for a Creator's Pet, simply having Character Focus at all is the basic criteria according to the trope page).

As for Character Shilling,

From the panel at SDCC: "These are Mako's basic proportions... He's a beautiful man..." From the official site at nick: "A Firebender with a serious side, the handsome and brooding Mako..." From the press release: "Tall, lean, and handsome, Mako is..." From Jinorra in-universe Episode: "Oooh, he's cute. Korra, is that the handsome firebender boy that drives you crazy?"

Add in more Jinorra "dreamy" quotes and a bunch of Korra's insubstantial "You're incredible" quotes, sprinkle in a dash of Amon quotes and I seriously doubt that the case can be made that Mako experiences no Character Shilling.

Interesting to note, is that no other character are simply "known" to be beautiful and gorgeous the way Mako is. Not even Asami has her bio call her beautiful! If this isn't Character Shilling of the highest order, I don't really know what is.

Then add to the fact of the matter that is the Creators who are forcing the idea of Mako's beauty down everyone's throats and I highly doubt that the case can be made that they don't love him more than the others, especially given that his name and character is specifically an homage to a beloved voice actor, one of the very warning signs for a Creator's Pet!

So once more, Rebochan, the moderators and everyone else, if Mako doesn't deserve to be listed as a Creator's Pet, who exactly on the page does, and why them and not Mako? Answer that question and that'll be the last you hear from me.

Please try to respond in a way that does not denigriate my post into irrational "hate" or "bias" as I believe all the arguments I've made have been coherent and all of my posts polite. I do not call other people's opinons stupid or ridiculous and I would appreciate the same common courtesy.
Larkmarn
03:44:24 PM Sep 16th 2013
... who says there HAS to be a Creator's Pet? That makes no sense.
Baroxio
03:45:34 PM Sep 16th 2013
Um...what? Can you quote the part where I said that?
Hodor
03:45:51 PM Sep 16th 2013
edited by 167.165.222.32
Well, in regard to the threatned face burning, I personally do find that pretty distasteful and is one reason I can't really shake the idea that because of ideological reasons, the creators consider the Equalists worse/more deserving of abuse than the Fire Nation even though their actions aren't as bad. And I agree that scene was not particularly well written in general.

Not so much in agreement RE the comment on Mako's looks. I definitely took away the impression that Asami was supposed to be quite attractive in universe, and while its largely an Informed Ability, even with Bolin you get a bit of that. I'll let someone else address this one.

Edit- Maybe I should delete this as it is encouraging further needless discussion...
MrDeath
03:47:36 PM Sep 16th 2013
Dude. When the mods say enough, they mean enough. That means stop with the long diatribes where you ask one of us to do something utterly irrelevant, and then continue on for a page and a half on things that only prove that Mako is, shockingly, one of the lead characters.

Nobody here is going to go through the entirety of the Creator's Pet page just because you can't let this go. It is an entirely unreasonable request that has no bearing at all on this instance. It's like telling a cop, "I won't pay the ticket until you explain why you didn't pull over everyone else."
Baroxio
03:53:23 PM Sep 16th 2013
I'm not asking you to go through the entire page. Pick one at random and explain why that person is a Creator's pet and Mako, by the same criterion, is not.
Hodor
04:04:01 PM Sep 16th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
Ok, here's two that seem like a good comparison:

First, under Live Action Tv, there's Neelix from Star Trek: Voyager- the entry notes that when audiences complained about him, the creators responded by increasing his screen time. Contrast to Mako who has his screen time/presence decreased in the second season.

Also, I think any/all of the Star Wars examples under Literature show what it is really like when a minor character is made overpowered- like imagine if for instance Mako was the only lightning bender around and was (imaginary writer description) "a better martial artist than Zuko and a shrewder planner than Iroh (I)".
Fighteer
moderator
04:09:15 PM Sep 16th 2013
Baroxio, shut up about the character hate, or you'll lose wiki editing privileges. This is your first and final official warning.
Baroxio
04:31:18 PM Sep 16th 2013
edited by 128.59.150.228
@Hodor, thank you for the example, and while I think much can be said on how Mako compares to the characters you listed, it seems I'm being forced to no longer respond.

One more thing though, @Fighteer

What "character hate" are you talking about? Is wanting somebody to be listed under a particular trope "character hate"? Which of my posts can be described as "hateful"?

If wanting to put a Character on the Creator's Pet page counts as character hate to the point where said person should lose editing privileges, then why do we even have an example page in the first place?

More to the point, there is no "hate" in anything that I write and I find it rather insulting for you to denigrate my posts as such.

That said, since this is my final warning, I'll stop bumping the issue, but let it be known that my opinion, however worthless it may be to you, is not to be mistaken as "hate."

Peace.
MrDeath
08:21:25 AM Sep 18th 2013
It's not "wanting someone to be listed under a particular trope." It's "keeping up the argument once it's become clear that the character does not fit, up to and including making up arbitrary rules for the series that do not exist for the purpose of saying said character broke them."

Admittedly, it's also partly because the people arguing this before you very clearly did hate the character, so you're catching some runoff from that.
SeptimusHeap
topic
02:07:53 PM May 16th 2013
This item is being subject of a controversy. Can you please work it out here instead of the edit history? Thanks.
  • Informed Wrongness: Bolin tries to cheer Korra up after losing her bending abilities by pointing out that she's finally achieved airbending. Mako tells him "Bro, not the time!" and he slinks off. Given that all he did was try to look on the bright side of things, and what he said was true, a number of fans don't think that Mako's rebuke was warranted.
Larkmarn
03:41:15 PM May 16th 2013
Keep it off the page. Seems like a vehicle for people (more subtly than usual, at least) complain about Mako.

And given it... kind of wasn't the time (Korra was REALLY depressed, Bolin acting cheerful did not help) I think Mako's actually in the right.

Plus it's so minor. I mean, one minor snap between brothers shouldn't bother anything.
Rebochan
07:27:44 PM May 16th 2013
I think the fact that it does upset Korra is a pretty strong argument for it not simply being informed wrongness. I also think it's less what Bolin said and how he said it. Plus on top of that, Mako didn't succeed at breaking her mood either because he threw a heavy subject at her that just further upset her.

...you know, neither one of them is terribly good at talking to people.
AnewMan
06:50:45 PM Jul 20th 2013
Here's a problem, though. According to Mako logic, trying to look on the bright side of things after Korra had lost the rest of her bending is something it's "not the time" for. Confessing your love to Korra after Katara confirmed there is no way to recover her bending is something it's TOTALLY the time for. Granted, these things happened much later and weren't too related, but it does make Mako come off as a total hypocrite.
Antiyonder
11:15:43 AM Aug 7th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.4
Plus you'd think that Bolin called her a half-baked Avatar or made a racist joke.
Rebochan
04:14:25 PM Aug 29th 2013
Wow, you got "racist joke equivalent" from "Not the time!"

....I wish I hated any fictional character as much as some of you people hate Mako...
Rebochan
07:37:37 PM Sep 5th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.4
"And then, just shortly afterwards, Mako sideswiping Korra with a love confession is framed as perfectly appropriate. Admirable, even. "

Except that it also upset Korra, who ran off crying. Because neither one of them said anything that dealt with her actual problem (which is that she felt useless as an Avatar.) Bolin pointed out something that only made her loss more obvious, Mako at least tried to tell her that someone loved her and cared about what happened to her. But he didn't take her emotional state into account and made it worse because she felt worthless to everyone.

And yes, this is where the irrational hate comes from - taking things so far out of the context of what actually happened to support an imaginary narrative.
Torresp
topic
07:11:02 PM Apr 16th 2013
Wouldn't Hiroshi qualify for being a Complete Monster? Ever since we found out his true intentions, he made it clear that he will rid the world of benders only because of what happened to his wife. According to Asami, he started to care less about his family, and wanted to kill her, and for what? CONSORTING WITH BENDERS! I mean, unlike Amon or Tarrlok, he remained evil to the end and never felt a shred of regret or remorse for his actions, especially not his actions against benders.

I mean, all the weaponry he made for the Equalists, especially when used during the attack on Republic City—he was responsible for probably the death of millions
Hodor
07:21:04 PM Apr 16th 2013
Complete Monster examples are to be discussed here, but no, he doesn't count, given that he loves his wife (she's the reason he does evil things), and he at least once loved his daughter. His story isn't necessarily finished yet either, so he could display better or worse behavior later on.

Also, it is not clear how many people were killed during the attack, but millions seems very, very unlikely and is not at all implied by the show.
Torresp
08:27:20 PM Apr 16th 2013
Oh no, it became clear and confirmed by Asami that he doesn't feel any love for his wife anymore, he is so consumed by hatred. He refused to see that his actions would never be approved by his wife.

But his actions were still irredeemable, and he still crossed the Moral Event Horizon. Like I said, he had no remorse or second thoughts for the eradication of Benders, and had no qualms killing his only remaining family. The fact that he gave up everything his wife stood for invalidates his claim that he feels love for his wife. It wasn't about revenge anymore, he became a total hatemonger.
Shaoken
07:26:34 PM Sep 6th 2013
It should also be noted that Asami is only saying he doesn't feel any love for his wife anymore, that doesn't actually mean it's true since it's an in character statement that some people are taking as Word of God.

His rage is blocking out his rational thought process doesn't mean he stopped loving his wife, just that he's so consumed by hatred he can't think it through.
isoycrazy
topic
04:55:39 AM Feb 20th 2013
I don't feel this

  • Ass Pull Korra suddenly mastering airbending during the season 1 finale. And then suddenly learning how to give peoples bending back. And being granted the Avatar State by Ghost Aang.

truly fits YMMV. Korra had been learning the movements and ways of Airbending over the course of months. She understood the moves and philosophies. She only lacked the final "epiphany" for lack of a better term. The ability to let go of her personal identity and "earthly" connections. Being stripped of her bending right before this broke her self-image of the Avatar. And without that binding aspect, she was finally able to let fly and airbend.

As for the other parts, the Avatar State was only reached when Korra was at her lowest point, when her total identity was destroyed. She had spent her entire life knowing she was the Avatar and that was taken from her and now she felt permanently. As explained a few times on the Fridge Brilliance page, after this tragedy and destruction to her self-image, Korra opened herself up to divine help. She prayed for some help and it arrived.

Then Aang granting her the wisdom of how to Spirit Bend is also something the previous Avatars have shown able to do, such as when Roku possessed Aang to boost his firebending to free Katara and Sokka and Zuko at the Fire Sage temple.
SeptimusHeap
04:58:28 AM Feb 20th 2013
Also being completely spoilered is bad.
Rebochan
10:35:13 AM Feb 20th 2013
Oh man, I completely missed that. Ass Pull has got to be one of the most abused tropes on this site. Yea, it's not, people are just all mad their stupid Women in Refrigerators plot didn't happen.
KentuckyTroper1990
01:10:07 AM Feb 22nd 2013
It was a total Ass Pull, hence why I added it. She was basically given all the powers on a Silver Plot Platter, in the most contrived and out of nowhere way possible. It's totally jutfiable.
Larkmarn
05:49:08 AM Feb 22nd 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
Airbending and Avatar State? Not asspulls. Those were foreshadowed and alluded to all along; honestly it was weirder that she hadn't gotten the Avatar state yet. Airbending was simply Die or Fly. And the Avatar using the freaking Avatar State is about as Magic A Is Magic A as you can get.

However, Spirit Bending? Asspull. It honestly was a bit of one in the original series, but at least it was led up to and Aang had to learn it. Korra learning it from a past life instantly just so the show can have a Golden Ending?
MrDeath
08:56:48 AM Feb 22nd 2013
Literally the entire season is about her learning to airbend. It is impossible for something to be an asspull if it's something the character has been trying to do since five minutes into the first episode.

The Avatar State was clearly shown as something the Avatar is capable of from the first episode of the previous series. The Avatar going into the Avatar State is also completely incapable of being an Asspull because it's a fundamental part of the nature of the character.

It's like saying it's an asspull that a character with prominent wings can fly.
Peteman
09:04:33 AM Feb 22nd 2013
Aang learned Spirit Bending when the Lion Turtle touched him. That's about the same amount of effort Aang expended to teach Korra.
Larkmarn
12:41:35 PM Feb 22nd 2013
Less. Firstly, people were calling that an Ass Pull in the first place. But Aang at least had to find the lion turtle (which I believe was alluded to in the Library episode in the second season), and had a conversation building up to it.

Korra just spoke with Aang and learned it. I'm certain there's never been any sign that an Avatar has learned a full style of bending through the Avatar State. Aang's used them before (he used water-bending to preserve himself when he ran away) but never actually learned it. Seems like it would defeat the purpose of the Avatar traveling to learn styles if he can just learn it from his past life.
Peteman
01:05:11 PM Feb 22nd 2013
Energy bending can be taught by just touching people, while no other forms of bending have known to have that trait (I'm curious as to how it died out in the first place).

Korra learning energy bending through Aang is just as much an Ass Pull as Aang learning it from the dragon turtle. Sure, we've heard of dragon turtles, but their connection to energy bending wasn't established. At the same time, learning directly from a past life has also never been established, but Korra trying to connect to her past lives is something she's seen striving to do for a good part of the season.

I feel one is as much of an Ass Pull as the other, so either both are, or both aren't.
Larkmarn
01:46:47 PM Feb 22nd 2013
Like I said, during the first series' run people were crying out Ass Pull in the first place. I personally think Korra's was even more of an Ass Pull, but even if it's just the same, I think it's enough to qualify.

Airbending and Avatar State, however, are not an asspull by any stretch.
helterskelter
07:20:01 PM Mar 2nd 2013
I'm gonna have to agree there is some Ass Pulling going on here. The ability to restore bending would be, on its own, alright. But coupled with Korra just learning to fix everything all at once, it's clear the writers just needed to come up with some excuse for everything to end hunky-dory.
Larkmarn
11:28:38 AM Mar 13th 2013
I'm going to add Spirit Bending as an Ass Pull, but not Airbending or Avatar State. Let me know if anyone still objects.
Rebochan
12:54:48 PM Apr 17th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.8
I still object - the entry in particular isn't even factually correct. Aang learned energy bending from a spirit and had previously used the Avatar state to channel abilities other Avatars had. Korra doing exactly the same thing is not an Ass Pull.

Also, they did build up to that the entire series. Korra needed to learn to communicate with Aang and struggled the entire show to do so. Finally making that breakthrough when she was herself completely broken is the end of that storyline. Seriously, I can't believe I have to keep pointing this out a year later.

It's like "learning new information" is now "Ass Pull" simply because you didn't like what you learned.
Larkmarn
07:43:34 PM Apr 17th 2013
Ah, no problem. I like discussions with you, Rebo. You're usually pretty level-headed. And... I just seriously enjoy any discussion on the YMMV that isn't about Mako.

Anyhoo. The issue with Spirit-bending in Korra is that it seems less that she's channeling Aang to spirit-bend, but through Aang she permanently learned how to spirit-bend at will. Keep in mind Aang, even when fully empowered, could only spirit-bend in the Avatar-state.

And while the Avatar state itself was clearly foreshadowed and built up to the entire season, spirit-bending really wasn't. It was used by Aang in a flashback and mentioned occasionally, but not really foreshadowed that Korra would be able to do it.

And I repeat, spirit-bending was largely considered an asspull in the original series. ATLA at least introduced the situation that granted it to the main character more than five minutes before the show ended. I just checked and see now that it was recently pulled from that page, but the point remains that a not-insignificant portion of fans saw it as such... and honestly, I see Korra's use of it as even more of an asspull.

I don't, by any stretch of the imagination, dislike the ending of the series. Call me cheesy, but I'm glad it ended on a high note like it did. Even so, I can't help but feel a bit... wary about the way that happy ending was brought about. I don't even think of it as that bad of a thing, but I just think that it came out of nowhere (the name of the trope makes it sound... really, really bad, but I don't think it necessarily has to be, you know?). Given a sizable portion of the fandom sees it that way as well, I think adding it to a YMMV page would be reasonable.
Rebochan
11:58:20 PM Apr 17th 2013
I'd point out first that spirit and energy bending in the first series still isn't an Ass Pull and that's really been hashed to death a lot (if it popped up on the ATLA page again, that's not good.)

Here's the thing though - as I said, the whole series was building up to Korra being able to master her spirituality to the point of contacting Avatars of the past and achieving Aang's power level (air bending was the exact same conflict - it was all about Korra's spirituality). Using a power that we already established can undo blood-bending to undo blood bending isn't an Ass Pull - and it's not unreasonable that Korra, upon achieving an Avatar State, could be capable of it. It seems pretty obvious to me from her appearence during her spirit bending that she's accessing that level of power. This show has shown more than a few times that this kind of power growth is possible, as well as powers behaving abnormally. I don't think it was a coincidence that they highlighted several people who did "the impossible" in the last series.

Maybe you're right about the name though - in spite of our Tropes Are Not Bad mantra, there's no way a trope with a name like that doesn't just encourage "I hated this plot point" and not "This plot point feels under developed." Argh, I think that's really what bothers me - it's a really judgemental trope name on something that shouldn't inherently be judgemental. Another forum though.
Larkmarn
06:13:40 AM May 13th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
Aaaaaaaaaaaaand I completely forgot about this.

You must admit that Spirit and Energy bending in the first series were seen by many as an Ass Pull. I know, I know, a vocal minority doesn't make things right, but on an already subjective trope like this it still does have some significance. It's since been removed from the page, but as of my writing it was still there. And I get that people have done things that seemed impossible over the course of the series, but my issue with this one is that, in the last five minutes of the series, Korra suddenly gets a boost in power to give the show a Golden Ending. Her struggles with the Avatar state were well foreshadowed, so I don't even mind that. I wouldn't even call her getting her bending abilities back through the Avatar state an Ass Pull. It would be one thing if she used Spirit Bending in the same way as in the first series, but she busts out with a brand-new use of Spirit Bending (there's never been any instance of Super Empowering in the Avatar universe). We've seen the Avatar State trumps Bloodbending, but we've never seen the Avatar State undo depowering before.

Maybe a rename is in order, but given the sheer number of wicks that the page has, I doubt a TRS thread will accomplish anything.

EDIT: FYI ATLA is on the Ass Pull page.
Rebochan
07:34:09 PM May 16th 2013
Yea, I forgot about it too, sorry about that. Again though, I think the key point is that nobody is technically being "depowered", as in, losing their abilities entirely. We know Amon was using a form of bending and furthermore, that he could only really debend what he was aware of, as shown by Korra being able to keep Airbending. Knowing that the Avatar State trumps bloodbending, which is itself a form of water bending, it's common sense that she can undo it. She isn't shown doing anything more powerful than that.

Oh, as for the ATLA entry, I know I've pulled it at least once. In fact, I spotted my own mention on the discussion page for it, from Jun 2012. Unfortunately, the history of the page is only going back to the start of May, so I'm not sure when it came back. Guess I'll just start another discussion there...nobody seemed to argue last time.

In my experience, by the way, you'd be surprised about TRS threads and renames. Just having a lot of wicks isn't a barrier to a rename (it's more of a problem on a deletion.)
Larkmarn
01:55:36 PM May 17th 2013
I just don't think it's common sense that the Avatar State can undo Bloodbending. Given the flashback, I can see the Avatar State undoing Korra's own bending block (you're right, that is just an extension of Aang overpowering the bloodbending), but it's that Korra can successfully and easily do it to others that really comes out of nowhere. Katara, probably the foremost expert on Bloodbending at the time, was unable to undo Amon's bending blocks.

So basically, if rebending Lin was Spirit Bending, that's unprecedented because no one has restored someone's bending before. If it was bloodbending, it's equally Pull-ish because Korra was able to do it even though Katara couldn't.
Rebochan
03:04:48 PM May 17th 2013
But no one has taken anyone's bending before - except the Avatar. In the Avatar State. Korra couldn't use it until the last episode, hence she couldn't undo it before that point in time. It's common sense because we explicitly saw Aang was powerless against Bloodbending until he used the Avatar State, at which point it was completely harmless. The same should be able to apply to Korra.

Furthermore, we already know that Katara doesn't know much about Bloodbending and was deliberately not a master of it. Amon was a naturally talented prodigy who was so powerful he didn't even require a full moon to do it and had invented entirely new applications of the talent. Whatever Katara was doing was trying to reverse engineer a technique she wasn't wholly aware of. It's much like how metal bending as a skill didn't even exist until Toph discovered it - and many, many Earthbenders still can't do it even if they watch her practicing it.
Rebochan
12:04:44 AM May 29th 2013
Okay, so since there's been a lot of discussion on this, and it's gone cold for about two weeks...what's the plan here?
Larkmarn
05:43:03 AM May 29th 2013
I don't know... to be honest we just keep going in circles at this point. Rock paper scissors for it?
Shaoken
12:57:52 AM May 30th 2013
It could always be left up to a vote, or someone could go to a convetion and ask the writers "how?"

My personal opinion was that Spirit Bending is openning or closing a person's chakras to prevent bending (like how Aang's injury from the end of Season 2 stopped him from being able to go into the Avatar State), while Amon's bloodbending mimicked the same thing (since he's pressing down on two chakras or pressure points).

I personally never saw anything wrong with Spirit Bending giving a bender back their powers; if it can work one way what's stopping it from working in reverse?
Rebochan
09:13:05 PM Jun 4th 2013
Right, well, with the Ass Pull discussion on that other Avatar thing, winding down, I think this one is a little clearer. I think the last entry in the history is neutral enough, but I'm going to add something if that's cool.

  • Ass Pull: In the first season finale, Korra learning spirit-bending from Aang. While the series had been hinting at her making contact with Aang for some time, as well as showing Aang using the Avatar State to nullify the very blood-bending techniques seen by Amon, passing it onto her at the last minute with little explanation tends to ruffle a lot of feathers.

I think this one needs a Base Breaker entry too.
Larkmarn
11:50:08 AM Jun 5th 2013
Works for me on both accounts.
Hodor
topic
07:35:10 PM Feb 12th 2013
That They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot example should go. Rebochan is right, the issue of a Bender and Nonbender being Starcrossed Lovers is addressed at least in terms of how Asami's father reacts to the match, and I think is also implied in some of her emotional reaction (I forget if she ever says anything about it).

I would also say that despite my various musings on the politics of the show, I wouldn't really think that issue would get a lot of attention in that there's really no tradition shown which frowns upon benders and nonbenders hooking up (for one thing, Republic City is a former fire nation colony and Zuko and his father both married nonbenders).
SeptimusHeap
topic
01:32:59 PM Jan 17th 2013
This item is about to cause an Edit War. This example isn't written like it's about a Straw Man, and if it isn't about a strawman, it's not an example.
  • Strawman Has a Point: Considering the abundance of bending criminal organizations, benders are a legitimate threat to non-benders but this problem gets swept under the rug to maintain an Equalists=evil attitude. Also the city council seems to be made entirely of benders, so while it can be debated if non-benders are oppressed or not, it’s certain they’re not fairly represented.
Hodor
01:43:30 PM Jan 17th 2013
edited by Hodor
Well, since I suppose I'm one of those "social justice" people Rebochan referenced, thought I'd comment.

There might be a case of What Do You Mean, It's Not Political? with some of this, but my impression was that the show deliberately set up the Equalists as initially seeming to be sympathetic/initially made it appear that nonbenders were disadvantaged, but then went out of its way to disprove these.

IMO, the Equalists do ultimately seem to be a Strawman of equality movements, especially given The Reveal that their leader wasn't actually a nonbender and its possible didn't really give a damn about the goals of the movement. And its also kind of galling that the series sort of went with the idea that the oppressed group (nonbenders) weren't really oppressed and in fact were the real oppressors.

I admit that it is quite possible that myself (and others who share this view) might be reading too much into it. IIRC, Rebochan's interpretation is that the Equalists were intended by the show to have something of a point, in which case they wouldn't be a Strawman.

I tend to disagree (I think how if at all the second season treats this will clarify things). Overall, I'd probably consider the Equalists to be Unintentionally Sympathetic.

Incidentally, I was kind of amused when I saw the actor who voices adult!Aang was in the second Atlas Shrugged movie. Maybe my suspicion of the show having an Objectivist bent wasn't totally off base...
Larkmarn
04:15:46 PM Jan 17th 2013
I think the issue is that it's more Black and Gray Morality or Gray and Gray Morality since the Equalists weren't presented as strawmen.

They're SUPPOSED to have a point. Thus not this trope.

... in any case I am just ecstatic to have a fight that's not about Mako.
Strawberrycrepes
11:30:43 PM Jan 17th 2013
The reason I feel it’s a case of strawman is because the bending gangs are almost completely written out after “The Revelation” except for the reference to Asami’s mother and the fact that “When Extremes Meet” shows a clear example of nonbenders being oppressed however the ending completely glosses over this presenting beating the Equalists as happily ever after rather than having someone say “Hey, maybe we should do something so something like this doesn’t happen again. Let’s get some nonbenders on the council and do something about that firebender thief whose killing everyone’s parents.”
Rebochan
11:59:31 PM Jan 17th 2013
Where's the Strawman? The bending gangs ceasing to be a threat means all their past aggression goes poof? Dealing with the immediate threat of Amon and treating the city not being in absolute chaos and proving that Korra is now a competent Avatar capable of doing her job means...uh...what are we strawmanning?

I know it's not the "FUCK THE MAN" ending the social justice crowd wants, but that's not this trope either.
Hodor
07:18:10 AM Jan 18th 2013
Warning, wall of text ahead...

First, obviously some these issues kind of depend on how if at all the second season addresses them. I wouldn't be surprised if bending gangs pop up again, especially since Mako is joining the police force, and it seems like an obvious narrative thread that his past would come back to haunt him. In terms of nonbenders overall, I'm not sure how much the show actually meant to imply they really were oppressed at all, so I'm not sure if I'd expect the second season to show any efforts to help them post-Amon.

I don't really think the show needed a "FUCK THE MAN" ending- I think outside of any political implications, part of the issue is that it initially hinted (or at least seemed to hint) at nonbenders being disadvantaged, which would make a certain amount of sense given the overall world; however, the show ultimately seemed to run with "X-Men plot" of muggles oppressing the super-powered, which doesn't fit as well with the setting. And I think I have the right to say that given the setting, I would have preferred a "Korra helping oppressed nonbenders" plot to one of "Korra fighting evil nonbenders".

In terms of the "strawman", it seems to me that if you want to attack a social movement you don't like, some of the things you would do is a) have that movement's leader be a hypocrite manipulating his followers for his own ends; b)have people from the group the movement is supposed to represent comment how they actually aren't being benefited by it/it doesn't represent them; and c) have the social movement behave a lot worse than their former oppressors (see Persecution Flip).

All of these are things the show does toward the Equalists. Now obviously, they are not a real political group/aren't complaining about a problem that exists in the real world, but I think people generally understand them as equivalent to some kind of left wing revolutionary group/social movement (although, there are some aspects of them suggesting A Nazi by Any Other Name).

You are of course right that immediate problems were more important at the end of the series, and that Korra's Character Development is definitely important. However, I think that because the show has Amon and his followers create so much destruction, at the end of the day, any oppression nonbenders were shown to face earlier in the series just doesn't seem that important (this goes back to how Persecution Flip can have the Unfortunate Implications of implying the oppressed group are actually worse than their oppressors).
Larkmarn
07:27:29 AM Jan 18th 2013
Yeah, Strawberry, that winds up being more What Happened to the Mouse? than Strawman Has a Point since, as Rebo pointed out... there's no strawman.

I don't... really see the relevance of the bending gangs being written out.
Hodor
07:36:13 AM Jan 18th 2013
edited by Hodor
Hmm, you know, I think you may be right- while I think the Equalists may be a strawman of left-wing social movements, it isn't really clear yet if they have a point (although I think the show goes out of its way to show that they don't), and hopefully, the second season will generally give some more detail about how Republic City works. And I feel pretty sure that the bending gangs will be mentioned again.

So, I'd say the Equalists are likely a Strawman Political, but Strawman Has a Point should probably go for now.
MrDeath
08:38:08 AM Jan 18th 2013
The first episode has a bunch of benders harassing a bunch of nonbenders, and it's implied—if not outright stated—that the major gangs in the city are either entirely or primarily benders. And then one of the Bender council members takes extremely unfair actions against nonbenders, who appear to be centralized in some kind of ghetto.

The Equalists might be the badguys, but they do have a point inasmuch as there are benders who abuse their power over those who don't have it.
Peteman
08:40:37 AM Jan 18th 2013
I think the Equalists aren't really Strawman Has a Point. Knight Templar or Well-Intentioned Extremist maybe, Jerkass Has a Point most likely, but the disparity between Benders and non-Benders is real and the ability of the Equalists to get the support they've gotten is borne out of this.
Rebochan
02:57:15 PM Jan 18th 2013
How are the Equalists straw men of left-wing movements? How are they in any way a caricature of progressives, left-wing movements, or Occupy? The reason I keep complaining about the "social justicers" is because they seem to be intent on forcing their weak grasp of genuine social issues into a children's action show and complaining that because it isn't a long essay reinforcing their beliefs, it's Randian propaganda sold to children.

I mean, seriously, if they're supposed to be straw anything, then why show scenes that humanized Amon both before and after the revolution? Why portray the death of the Lieutenant as sympathetic? Why depict Hiroshi with a legitimate grievance if he's a mustache twirling leftist villain? Why take the time to show the city fighting violence with more violence if the Equalists are oh so evil and bad? Where's the caricature, where's the mockery? Where's anything that indicates they are clearly weak and silly people with stupid ideas that are easily mocked and torn down?

Oh, and why take the time to point out that the neediest of the population had actually started creating a network where people with or without bending capabilities simply treated each other as equals? Since they didn't exactly have means and money would be scarce, they simply shared what they had so they all survived. Guys, that's communism. Right there.

Also in real life, I'd recommend you read up on real social revolutions and how they normally turn out when they turn to violence. They're usually filled with sympathetic people who really do want the best but most of the time, they devolve into chaos and frequently become just as dangerous as the people they overthrew. French Revolution? October Revolution? These were populaces that were driven into the ground by oppressive aristocracies, but as soon as they seized control, all that followed was bloodshed, followed by the same people being oppressed again. Unfortunately, this is reality - it is very rare that civil unrest that gets to the point where the populace turns violent ends peacefully. On a grander scale, it is likely that devotion to an ideal drives people to stop reasoning, but I'd also hold that mob rule is generally not a peaceful rule in the first place. Once the Equalists realized they had means to enact their vision on the world, they chose like many to do so by force and completely lost sight of why. It doesn't mean they had no legitimate grievances or that beating up all the Equalists makes everything better, though it does deal with the immediate threat of open warfare.
Hodor
05:59:44 PM Jan 18th 2013
You know, it's hard to argue with that. You raise a lot of good points, especially wit your interpretation of Gomu and co. And I'm not blind to actual revolutions- I totally agree that the Equalists' violent actions/overreactions are pretty accurate as a parallel to actual revolutionaries- my issue is more that they are really only implied to have legitimate grievances for the most part, and I'd say that real revolutionaries generally have much more legitimate complaints.

I don't see Sato as a political strawman, especially because his reasons for joining the Equalists are more along the lines of personal vendetta than ideology. I think he's a fairly complex, realistic character, although I would note he goes pretty quickly from sympathetic Anti-Villain to nut trying to murder his own daughter.

I think my biggest problem with the Equalists is that while it took a while, the original series showed the average Fire Nation citizen to be an ok person and had an amusing take on its mooks as being punchclock villains. Morever, the Gaang felt sympathy for the Fire Nation. While a few major characters in the Equalist movement get some shading (Amon, the Lieutenant and Sato), there isn't a comparable depth given to its average members, nor do the protagonists show any sympathy toward the movement's goals (although granted, they are definitely sympathetic toward nonbenders).

Re Amon and his backstory, I do agree that he is presented with sympathy, although I will e note that Tarrlok is clearly presented as the more sympathetic of the too, and we only have Tarrlok's word that Amon really believed in his ideology (calling him Amon since cannot spell his real name).
isoycrazy
topic
06:20:59 AM Oct 16th 2012
I am against the usage of "whorra" being with the fan nickname because it is derogatory and this site seems to frown upon such material. Plus, the term "Fan nickname" would seem to be more apporpriate for a commonly accepted name, like shipping phrases. If we were to use any nickname a fan conceives, I should put Bolin under "Boloser" for failing to see Korra didn't like him that way.
Larkmarn
08:51:38 AM Oct 17th 2012
Yeah, agreed. In addition to having never heard the nickname "Whorra" before (... outside of an inside joke with friends who replace the title of many different shows with "whores," but that's wildly irrelevant), Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement still applies.
Rebochan
topic
01:44:44 AM Oct 14th 2012
edited by Rebochan
Hey, tumblr? Social Justice...guys?

Lo K had nothing to do with communism, socialism, libertarianism, commercialism, zoomorphisms, or whatever other bad -isms you keep writing trope entries about.

And please stop writing "Anvilicious" when the show wasn't even trying to deliver a moral to be "anvilicious" about. On any subject!
hoskins88
topic
10:25:57 PM Sep 1st 2012
About Alternate Character Interpretation

While I dont mean to open any flood gates I think the joke entry about Mako (Its been there since Makos first episode) should be replaced with something more legitimate. Though a fully neutral entry should be given.
reuvas
02:27:40 PM Sep 5th 2012
I don't see a problem with this. I mean, a lot of people interpret him in a lot of other ways. I think it's sufficient to simply mention that there are other ways though. You know how the M-word always manages to stir up trouble around here...
SeptimusHeap
topic
12:52:43 PM Aug 30th 2012
This entry under Ron the Death Eater sounds more like a complaint, even ignoring the Creator's Pet misuse.
  • Mako has caught some flak for the way he treats Asami and Korra. From a Jerk with a Heart of Gold with No Social Skills (HUGE emphasis on the "no") who utterly sucks at sorting his feelings, to potential Domestic Abuser and all around total asshole who, given a few years of being what they see as a total Marty Stu / Creator's Pet (and if this wasn't a kids' show), would eventually abuse and kill Korra if he could. Note that Mako is never depicted as abusive in canon.
eX
01:17:54 PM Aug 30th 2012
Yeah, that is definitely over the top. But it really is a pretty persistent attitude in the fandom to make Mako into some kind of monster ( Exhibit A-Z right here), so I think we should keep the entry, albeit in a much more neutral tone.
Rebochan
03:47:46 PM Aug 30th 2012
Agreed to keeping a neutral entry. There's a line between reasonable character critique (which is why he's The Scrappy), and actually seriously portraying him as a murderer and a psychopath (which is this trope).

I'm not sure how the entry mutated into what you quoted though - it actually seems to be suggesting he deserves to be portrayed that way.
SeptimusHeap
topic
04:32:09 PM Aug 21st 2012
This entry needs expansion per How to Write an Example.
Rebochan
topic
01:16:14 AM Aug 5th 2012
I keep seeing the same editor removing this in Pandering to the Base:

  • General Iroh skirts this due to having Zuko's voice actor, being Zuko's grandson, and bearing the name of his great uncle, an extremely popular character from the previous series. He pretty much subverts it because he's actually far more important to the finale's plot progression than just the fanservicey side of it.

The entire explanation is being replaced with simply "General Iroh is this." With zero context. I don't think that's fair since the character is clearly more important than just fanservice - if anything, Bumi is more fanservice than that considering he doesn't actually do anything in the finale but cheer and have a popular character's name. Iroh have an actor from the previous series doesn't trump all - a lot of actors from the last show came back for repeat performances, and considering they just lined up Grey De Lisle for Book 2, that's not going to change. Will we need to insist that every single character with an old voice actor falls under this?|

And for that matter, since there's now a tiny edit war going on over it, let's actually read the Pandering to the Base trope page and see what counts. And...nope, a character that merely has a previous character's voice and is a descendant of that character isn't going to count. Pandering to the base, according to this site, has to go well beyond "fan service". It has to be kowtowing to the demands of the fanbase in spite of it affecting the work. It must make the work nothing more than an exclusive fan club. Keep in mind that nobody even knew about Iroh before the show aired - only die hard fans knew Boscoe had a role in the next series and that Zuko was somehow important to it. Furthermore, Iroh having Zuko's voice is not required knowledge for anyone else watching the show to know or enjoy. An Easter Egg at best, but the relevant information is presented in the plot of the show itself.

TL;DR I don't even think Iroh should be an example after actually reading the page.

And before someone goes "Oh, but Tropes Are Not Bad", Tropes Are Not Good and the page itself is clearly slanted to only carry negative implications. If this trope is not supposed to be bad, then it needs a serious rewrite.
Eagal
01:03:29 PM Aug 5th 2012
edited by Eagal
As before, it's not a matter of having worked with the actors before.

DBB played frakin Momo and Appa. It's a meaningless transition to cast him again as a different character. GDL was Azula. Unless she plays Azula's identical granddaughter in Book 2, it will similarly be meaningless.

I can't imagine anyone cared enough about The Last Airbender for the casting of Yue's actress to matter in the slightest.

But again as before, Iroh is a direct take-off of Zuko in every way. They cast Bosco, despite his voice not fitting the character, for no reason other than for fans to go Hey, It's That Guy!! His significance to the plot is entirely incidental to the (poor) choice for his voice actor.
Rebochan
02:34:01 PM Aug 5th 2012
edited by Rebochan
Okay, so, just because you personally don't like the casting choice, that doesn't make Iroh Pandering to the Base and that doesn't make even mentioning that he's not there strictly for fanservice invalid.

For that matter, casting a descendant of a previous character with the same actor isn't inherently pandering either. It provides a small bit of continuity, but it does not affect the show's direction or quality - except that you don't like the casting choice. That's why it IS relevant to point out that Iroh isn't just stunt casting, of which pandering would qualify - Iroh is a fairly important character to the show's finale.
Larkmarn
11:42:02 AM Aug 6th 2012
edited by Larkmarn
I agree it's pandering. Look at the page itself, "When the pandering actually does work, it's And the Fandom Rejoiced." What was And The Fandom Rejoiced called before? "Cue Cullen" because of a voice actor reprising a role. And again, Cullen voiced a very important character himself (far more important than Iroh was to T Lo K).

I LIKE the casting choice and I think it fits the definition of Pandering to the Base. I do agree that "General Iroh is this" is wrong. Even the earlier "General Iroh due to sharing a VA with his ancestor is this" is wrong. However, I do believe that "General Iroh sharing his VA with Zuko is this" would be fine. Basically, Iroh himself isn't this, but his VA choice is.

Just sayin'.
Rebochan
01:34:03 PM Aug 6th 2012
Okay, I'm getting a bit confused. Pandering to the Base seems to be "And the Fandom Rejoiced but bad" under that explanation. Or it's "And the Fandom Rejoiced" but without Sugar Wiki.

Regardless, I think context for the entry is important because the character does a bit more than just exist with a previous character's voice actor. Compare it to the Cabbage Corp. gag, which only die-hard fans of the last show are going to get. Having Zuko's voice is unimportant to the casual fan to understand who Iroh is - a bigshot general of the Fire Nation. Having Zuko's voice is a nod to the last show, but not important. It's a bonus to a long-time series fan, but not crucial to the character himself.

The Cabbage Corp CEO screaming "My Cabbage Corp!" is just strange to a casual viewer since that's the first time the ongoing cabbage merchant joke from the last series got a callback in this one.
Larkmarn
08:17:54 AM Aug 16th 2012
Again... Iroh is not Pandering to the Base.

The choice of Iroh's VA being the same as Zuko's is Pandering to the Base.

ATFR is a potential reaction to PTTB. My guess is that's why it's Sugar Wiki, since it's an audience reaction trope while PTTB is an active decision by the creators. An interesting distinction, sure, but a distinction nonetheless.
SeventhBase
topic
08:00:33 PM Jul 31st 2012
edited by SeventhBase
I've seen debates and arguments on /co/ and tumblr regarding the veracity of Korra's "You're oppressing yourselves!" retort. Specifically, whether the oppression against non-benders in this universe by benders has substance or completely contrived propaganda from Amon's twisted head. Since this is opinion-based, would it fall under this article, and where?
MrDeath
07:03:20 AM Aug 1st 2012
What is the trope?
VeryMelon
08:21:40 PM Aug 3rd 2012
coolman229
11:06:56 PM Aug 3rd 2012
I would put it under Hannibal Has a Point.
Rebochan
01:08:45 AM Aug 5th 2012
It wouldn't fall in the article at all because Korra's retort was clearly intended to be a Lame Comeback in the first place and not a serious political statement.
Larkmarn
11:43:44 AM Aug 6th 2012
Seconding Rebochan.
Masterofchaos
topic
06:32:03 PM Jul 30th 2012
I think the link in Mako's entry, under Ron the Death Eater, should be deleted, as it seems to be an open invention to bash the fic writer.
ccoa
12:08:15 PM Jul 31st 2012
Agreed, that's exporting drama. Removed the link to the fanfic.
ccoa
topic
06:35:08 AM Jul 27th 2012
Removed:

  • Jerk Sue: Mako, at the eyes of some fans.

First of all, using "some fans" as a stand-in for "I" is not fooling anyone. Secondly, please freaking read tropes before you add them. Relevent paragraph:

The basis of this trope is the tendency of many Darker and Edgier writers to create a bitter, ill-spirited, confrontational, or downright mean character and still play them up as an ideal person, or just get away with being a bullying Jerkass. The other characters tolerate the antics (which can range from petty to sociopathic), allowing him/her to walk all over them and talking them up in their conversations with each other. Common synonyms include "strong", "tough", and "rugged" while common topics include how much better they've made their lives through their "tough love" or whatever Freudian Excuse supposedly justifies their behavior.

Mako is in no way made out to be an "ideal person." He's called out on his behavior, so he doesn't get away with anything, even if you could stretch his behavior to "bullying Jerk Ass". No one allows him to walk all over them. And the last sentence is so far removed from his character that it's laughable.

Can we please stop shoehorning every remotely negative trope onto Mako? It's gotten really fucking old.
Rebochan
11:10:17 AM Jul 27th 2012
Hrm, I thought we weren't putting Sue tropes on even the YMMV pages anymore? I haven't taken any off, mind you.
eX
11:18:45 AM Jul 28th 2012
At least for Jerk Sue, there is a notice on the page. I guess there is confusion whether this only applies to the main trope page or all examples in general.
Rebochan
04:10:38 PM Jul 28th 2012
I asked about it on Ask The Tropers and it seems that it's okay to add wicks to example-free tropes. For some reason I assumed if a page had already had an Example Sectionectomy, we weren't supposed to add them to YMMV pages either. Like I said, though, I've not actually taken tropes off based on that. And yea, Jerk Sue doesn't fit.
agent002
01:21:54 PM Dec 5th 2012
WHY is Mako excused from any Marty Sue entries but Asami has a Possession Sue one?Doesn't YMMV mean "YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY"?

Please explain, a lot of people are noticing this section's predilection for removing any negative connotations to Mako.
MrDeath
01:39:08 PM Dec 5th 2012
Because every entry was thinly veiled, "MAKO IS RUINING MY SHIP THIS IS WHY HE SUCKS RARARAR"
SeptimusHeap
02:25:54 PM Dec 5th 2012
Also, "your mileage may vary" does not mean "everything goes". More importantly, it does not mean "everything about this item is subjective". Jerk Sue has objective criteria and Mako fails them.
ANewMan
01:21:33 PM Apr 17th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
Because every entry was thinly veiled, "MAKO IS RUINING MY SHIP THIS IS WHY HE SUCKS RARARAR"

Oh great, strawmaning the Mako haters again, are we? No, it's not always about Mako/Asami shippers or Korra/Bolin shippers being butthurt over Makorra. It's about people in general seeing cheating on your girlfriend to be disgusting, even morseo if you get away from it scot-free, with literally no consequences or reprecussions for yourself. (Seriously, who's the only one who doesn't seem to be suffering in the preview for Book 2? Mako.)

So to the OP: yes, he does get away with everything. A few What the Hell, Hero? remarks from Asami is minimal consequences compared to the happy ending he gets while everyone else (especially the girlfriend whom he cheated on) truly suffers. (Asami has lost everything at the end of the season, but this gets no lip service because Korra and Mako's happily ever after is more important.) And the removal of anything that gives negative opinions or casts a negative light on Mako is getting fucking old as well. This is YMMV: not "people's mileage on this character MUST be positive!"
Rebochan
03:30:19 PM Apr 17th 2013
You know, you're not doing anything to help your case when you attack other posters and turn most of your counter-argument into a personal essay about a character you don't like...

...also, not quite sure why this ever came up that Asami is being unfairly maligned on this page. Most of the trope entries about her highlight that she got the short end of the stick. Even her Scrappy entry is sympathetic and paints her as the victim of shippers. Compare Mako's Scrappy entry, which only highlights his negative traits and why they upset people.
FarseerLolotea
11:58:08 PM Sep 4th 2013
This. Any criticism whatsoever of Mako's behavior—any implication whatsoever that he might ever have been in the wrong in any way—gets strawmanned as mindless "hate." Including by Bryke.
Rebochan
07:34:12 PM Sep 5th 2013
That's because it is mindless hate now. If you have nothing trope-related to contribute, please, there's a perfectly functioning forum where this discussion clearly belongs.

And that's a flat-out lie that "any implication he was wrong" is strawmanned. You can see that on the page as it currently exists. I'd suspect your real problem isn't that every single trope isn't "MAKO SUCKS RAWR." He's already got multiple entries discussing his negative points in a calm, rational manner.
Larkmarn
06:53:38 AM Sep 6th 2013
The ones that get axed are the ones complaining about him when he doesn't fit the trope. What happens very often with characters that someone doesn't like is they try to shoehorn them into a negative trope, ignoring the fact that those tropes tend to be even more strict because of their flame-bait-y nature.
blackflamerose
topic
08:08:12 AM Jul 1st 2012
edited by blackflamerose
Do We Have This One?? I added a comment under Ron the Death Eater that has since been deleted about the really rabid Mako bashers harassing his VA on Twitter. Would that count as Fan Dumb or does something else exist that describes this phenomenon better?
VeryMelon
08:49:08 AM Jul 1st 2012
No, thats textbook Hate Dumb, try that.
blackflamerose
01:41:34 PM Jul 10th 2012
Ok, edit now posted to Hate Dumb to this effect.
Mortrialus
topic
04:19:59 PM Jun 30th 2012
This part of the YMMV section bothers me: "The Scrappy: Mako, for the portion who do not approve of his behavior and his lack of tact handling his romantic situation with Korra and Asami, as well as those who disapprove of his perceived lack of personality (beyond romantic tactlessness). It's gotten as far as him being blasted more than the actual antagonists and there's been daunting wishes for him to die, be written out, or remain alone for life as an outcome. Interestingly (and perhaps unsurprisingly), as Asami's popularity went up, his went down. His Scrappy status skyrocketed after the finale when he breaks free of Amon's bloodbending (the only one to do so) and declares his love for Korra twice—despite her being in the middle of a breakdown—and it's somehow reciprocated."

The part that specifically bothers me is the "It's gotten as far as him being blasted more than the actual antagonists" part and it bothers me for a number of reasons. First, whether Mako is a villainous character has absolutely nothing to do with his position as a scrappy. Second, it strikes me as trying to invalidate those who dislike the character by subtlety saying "Mako's not a villain and doesn't deserve the fan backlash. You should hate Amon and Tarrlok instead."

The person who wants it in is Rebochan, which isn't surprising given how uncivil and nasty he/she has been to people who dislike Mako on this very page including me. It doesn't surprise me about him/her wanting to use the page to discredit people who dislike Mako.

Can we finally remove this part?
blackflamerose
08:18:47 AM Jul 1st 2012
First off, having read this entire page, Rebochan has not been uncivil or nasty to anyone; what zie has done is make sure that the tropes on this page are used in the manner for which they were intended.

Secondly, this page is not the We Hate Mako Club. Believe it or not, there actually are people here who do NOT believe that Mako is the Devil incarnate. YMMV and all that. Given the other places I go to discuss this series, the part about him being blasted more than Amon and Tarrlok is absolutely true. As I even mentioned above, the fanbase hates Mako so much that some are harassing his VA, and if this continues,I would not be surprised to see another Mark Hildreth situation on our hands. So, that entire paragraph needs to stay, if only for the people afraid to voice the very unwelcome opinion that Mako is not a complete waste of time and animation.
VeryMelon
08:48:19 AM Jul 1st 2012
Agreed with blackflamerose.
Rebochan
10:48:20 AM Jul 1st 2012
I actually just cleaned that up again because I noticed, thanks to it being quoted above, that it was once again twisting some really simple things into being much worse and getting some facts wrong. I tried to take those bits out and simplify it to the real core of the issue - how he handled his love life. Because let's face it, shipper or non, how he handled the Asami/Korra/Mako love triangle is where the controversy comes from.
eX
02:56:18 PM Jul 1st 2012
edited by eX
A lot of people mistake YMMV as the page where they can put their own opinion. But these pages are not supposed to represent either opinion. What they are supposed to do is presenting an issue in a somewhat neutral tone, meaning showing that they exists, while not actually displaying the behavior.

So, whenever you see a comment that is trying to justify or bash any opinion, feel free to rewrite it. Regarding this, I also like to link to Example Indentation in Trope Lists. If you want to expand/clarify an example, don't add another bullet point. Those are for multiple examples of the same trope, not an substitute for paragraphs.

And I don't really see where Rebochan was in any way unfriendly.

Orihime
12:48:45 PM Jul 4th 2012
edited by Orihime
Uncivil and nasty? Really? Not only I agree with blackflamerose, but I actually think that YOU are the one who's actually acting that way. Because I see you attempting to shoehorn a character you hate (reasons aside) into more than one bashing category even after others tell you to stop, greatly exaggerating said chara's already present flaws to make him look worse than he truly is, calling other people names when they disagree with you, and totally refusing to see any opinion that isn't similar to your own.

As said already, this isn't the "We Hate Mako" FC. If you and others can't get over how not everyone here hates Mako and will not agree with your tries to make him look like something akin to a Complete Monster, then I believe this just ain't the place for you.
Mortrialus
01:55:37 AM Jul 11th 2012
edited by Mortrialus
There is a post below by Rebochan in the Romantic Plot Tumor discussion that says "edited for civility". There is a reason Rebochan edited her post for "civilities sake", but I saw it. I didn't appreciate it. Even ccoa called her on on her belligerent, insulting language towards me. The reason you can't see it is because she hid it. In the Creator's Pet discussion, Rebochan posted a passive aggressive response insinuating that I think a Creator's Pet is a character I hate that the show's cast doesn't (I said no such thing).

I have yet to insult anyone. I've taken issue with Rebochan insulting me previously.

Just look at how you're treating me right now. I made one suggestion weeks ago that Mako is a Creator's Pet in the discussion page. I was wrong about that because it missed one requirement and I dropped it. When other people have tried to add a Creator's Pet entry, I've taken it out myself. Yet you are treating me as if I've created an edit war over this, not listening to anyone and vandalizing the page to create a shine towards my dislike of the character. You're all telling me to "Take a chill pill", that I'm mistaking this for a "Hate mako" fan club and putting words into my mouth. I don't think Mako is the Devil Incarnate like you accuse me of saying. I've never called Mako a Complete Monster like you accused me of saying.

Where have I tried to make Mako look like a Complete Monster? I wrote one blog post about where he annoys me, which I linked to. I open the critique prefacing that Mako isn't a complete monster or evil, or a villain.

Where have I said that Mako is the Devil Incarnate? I've called him obnoxious, and that he did some awful, nasty stuff in a lot of episodes.

Where have I shoehorned Mako into more than one blasting category? I made one post in the discussion. Dropped it after ccoa explained how it wasn't character shilling and I have personally gone out of my way to delete it whenever anyone else tries to stick in into the page.

There are plenty of villains who are appreciated for their villainy and the role they play in the story, like Amon is. That's common enough to not make a scrappy receiving more hate unusual. Mako's status as a hero or villain is irrelevant to him being a scrappy. That's what I'm saying. If it was, the trope wouldn't be named after a heroic character. It would be like going into the Berserk YMMV page and make a stipulation on how Puck gets more hate than Griffith and Zodd even though Puck isn't a villain like they are. Yeah, it's true in Mako's case, but so what?

If you're going to argue with me, it would be nice if you actual argued about what I'm saying and yet blackflamerose and Orihime both strawmanned me. Rebochan has strawmanned and insulted me before. I don't appreciate this.

And eX, I'm trying to explain that I found a section of Mako's scrappy section as trying to bash those that think he is the scrappy. I tried to just snip that part out, and Rebochan immediately puts it back in, so I tried to discuss it here. I'm regretting doing so, however.

Also, the reason David Faustino has been getting harassed is because he was asked a jokey question "Who would you date, Asami or Korra" and he answered with “It’s a tough decision. The slut in me wants to be with Asami, but the smart and sensible guy in me should probably go for Korra. But Asami is still really hot.” which didn't go over too well.
blackflamerose
01:38:36 PM Jul 11th 2012
edited by blackflamerose
;;eyebrow up;; Where, exactly, did I strawman you in particular? All I did was point out the prevailing attitude in the fandom towards Mako, and the atmosphere derived from this attitude. I've had to quit several mainstream fansites for the sake of my blood pressure because the hivemind regarding Mako has gotten so toxic. I did not want to see that happen here. And yes, Mortrialus, I have seen more than one post on these mainstream sites regarding Mako as the Devil incarnate or a canon abuser. Abuse Cycle, anyone?

And also, making a stupid (and quite possibly jokey) comment on Twitter does NOT mean that Faustino deserves what these Mako bashers have been doing. Again, this keeps up, and I would not be surprised to see him swear to never work on another Avatar project again.
Mortrialus
03:50:34 PM Jul 11th 2012
edited by Mortrialus
"Secondly, this page is not the We Hate Mako Club. Believe it or not, there actually are people here who do NOT believe that Mako is the Devil incarnate. YMMV and all that."

Which was directed at me, in response to my post. It's the first response in this discussion I started. And if other people really hate Mako that much, so what? I didn't post anything in this discussion that implies I think of him that way and its irrelevant and wrong for you to bring up as if I did.

I also didn't say Faustino deserves getting harassed. He made a bad joke that didn't go over well and got backlash for it. That is all I said. You're strawmanning me again.

So for once, how about someone actually talks about why I made this discussion. Should we start going into every YMMV page, and if a character is listed as a scrappy and isn't a villain, make a big stipulation about how they get more criticism than the villains?

Should we go into the Berserk page and point out how it's weird how Puck Gets more hatred from the fans than any of the villains, even though he doesn't eat people and his healing powers have saved the day numerous times?

Should we go into the Scooby-Doo YMMV page and point out how Scrappy isn't a villain and never does criminal activity like the various villains of the series?

That Mako gets more hatred than Amon and Tarrlok(Post finale) is irrelevant to his status as the scrappy and it comes off as trying to invalidate and bash those that don't like Mako, but enjoy Amon's for the role he plays in the story.
blackflamerose
09:27:18 PM Jul 11th 2012
edited by blackflamerose
;;sigh;; Ok,it appears that nothing I could actually say would dissuade you from the idea that I am attacking you in particular. I wasn't. I was pointing out what the attitude surrounding Mako seemed to be from the sites that I frequented until the hate got to be too much. I was also extremely tired of feeling that the minority of the fandom that actually liked him were committing a Fandom Heresy and were being silenced on every other fansite; and I used the example with Faustino to show how the rabid bashers are going way too far. I took a stand, here, and from the comments, it appears I was not the only one to feel that way.

Now, to address your initial complaint. Yes, Mako is The Scrappy, and part of that trope tends to involve ridiculous amounts of hate, even when it is not totally deserved. It also doesn't help that Tarrlok and Amon are prime examples of Draco in Leather Pants, and thus there are a lot of people out there who actually do think that Mako is worse than the other two. Acknowledging this is not bashing or invalidating those who don't like Mako, that's pointing out a case of Ron the Death Eater; heck, the Mako haters are the majority of the fanbase. However, the parts of the fanbase who disagree need to have a place where their opinion is respected, too, and at the time of my initial comment, it seemed that this page was going the way of all the others.

I don't know about the others who commented on this thread, but that's how I saw it. You are perfectly within your rights to disagree with me, and I hope this helped.
Mortrialus
10:24:43 PM Jul 11th 2012
edited by Mortrialus
"Ok,it appears that nothing I could actually say would dissuade you from the idea that I am attacking you in particular."

Probably not because you did attack me, you strawmanned me, you tried to dereail the discussion with you "taking a stand" and now that I called you out on it you're weaseling out of it. If you weren't aiming that at me, why did you post this in a reply to my discussion? Oh because you were reacting to people on other sites you visit, not me. Right....

Every time I've voice my opinion in this page, whether it's the fact that I think Makorra is a case of Strangled by the Red String, or that Mako might qualify as a Creator's Pet and now this topic I've gotten shit on, insulted, and ridiculed. I'm fucking sick of it.

Moving on, Mako is already listed under Ron the Death Eater and Amon and Tarrlok are listed under Draco in Leather Pants. That Mako is defended as a case of Ron the Death Eater in his scrappy article is irrelevant. It would be like pointing out how Mako is hated by a lot of nonshippers like myself in the Die for Our Ship article. It's irrelevant.
Orihime
01:44:38 PM Jul 13th 2012
edited by Orihime
//Every time I've voice my opinion in this page, whether it's the fact that I think Makorra is a case of Strangled By The Red String, or that Mako might qualify as a Creators Pet and now this topic I've gotten shit on, insulted, and ridiculed. I'm fucking sick of it. //

Maybe that's because of how you have been pushy, rude, and now passive-aggressive and trying to play the victim card? Every time others told you that no, Mako isn't as bad as you tied to make us believe he is, you moaned and threw tantrums and couldn't accept an opinion different from yours. Even when offered proof of such claims, you still complained and acted like a child. And now you try to paint yourself as a poor little victim who's so oppressed and insulted *when you have said/done/etc. questionable things too*.

I don't claim that I'm flawless and always right, in fact I *have* commited mistakes here and in other places, but your aggressive attitude and now your "woe is me I'm the victim in this" parade come off as extemely annoying. I've seen such things happen in several fandoms when people who bash pairings/characters/etc. find out that not everyone shares their opinion, so I'm not exactly impressed either.

We're not bad persons for refusing to take character/shipping bashing and point it out, or... something like that. And no, you're not some poor little martyr who gets insulted for having a different opinion either.
lu127
moderator
02:00:23 PM Jul 13th 2012
edited by lu127
<Mod Hat On>

This is a discussion page relating to the YMMV items about The Legend of Korra. It is not a discussion on individual editors and their behaviour.

Stop shifting the conversation to other editors one way or another, or you will be suspended.

That goes for all of you.

<Mod Hat Off>
reuvas
03:57:39 PM Aug 17th 2012
edited by reuvas
If we can get back to the matter at hand?

I don't think the reasoning for leaving that portion in is very sound. It boils down to: You're all tired of people hating Mako (You're certainly not alone on that front), you don't want to see this page become a place of hate (understandable and respectable), so you're reminding the Mako supporters that they don't have to be scared (what?) to voice their opinions. (I was under the impression that this place wasn't for voicing opinions, but reporting tropes)

And what of it? Is there really that much to fear that passersby will have their judgment clouded because of a few trope entries? Don't whitewash Mako because of that. He's listed as the Scrappy and as Ron The Death Eater. The denunciation of Mako haters is kind of already there in RTDE- it implies that fans demonize Mako further than he deserves to be. So, you already have a trope defending him. Why try to 'anesthetize' the trope that doesn't imply Mako's treatment by the fans is harsh?

What that says to me is that, despite the fans' reactions to Mako already qualify him as a Scrappy, and the trope's requisites being filled, the entry must be presented in a way to remind people that Mako still doesn't deserve to be a scrappy. Fair enough. Maybe he doesn't deserve it, but he is.

If the phrase should be left in, it should be reworded, to reflect the situation, not the fans' perceptions. Don't imply it's the crazy fans who give more hate to Mako, (who is one of the heroes whose expectations of heroics weren't met to many) than to the actual villains. Rather state that Mako's status as scrappy earns him more hatred than one might expect from say, the villains in the series.

I know these sound pretty much the same, but it's the semantics. Instead of insulting people who have a right to dislike the character, point out the fact that Mako gets more hate than Amon and Tarrlok (which he definitely does), without bringing them into it.

Do what Mako does. Use the passive voice. Don't point out the subject of the sentence. Leave it ambiguous. Then you can present the factual situation, without the implied accusation of rabid Mako haters being unrealistic who should just shut up and love Mako like the rest of us 'normal' people already.

Also, I wouldn't link it to Ron The Death Eater. He's already listed under that trope. No need for redundancy. Also it's a contributing factor to why the OP found this insulting.

The point of the Scrappy isn't to point out that the character in question's perception as such is fair or unfair, simply that it is. If you want to point out the truthful situation of Mako's hate levels climbing higher than the villain's (which happens a lot in shows- villains tend to be very well received by fans) it can be done without implying that this is wrong or irrational. We have RTDE for that.
Rebochan
04:42:02 PM Aug 17th 2012
I'm...not quite sure what you're asking. It's impossible to argue that Mako is not fulfilling The Scrappy trope, so nobody is suggesting that be removed. I'm trying to parse your post, but it seems you don't have a problem with the phrase in question.

For the sake of reference (and because this whole thing may need a clean up), here is the full text of this page's The Scrappy entry (without spoiler tags):

The Scrappy:

  • Asami to an extent, due to Die for Our Ship and Ron the Death Eater reasons. Though for many, she was Rescued from the Scrappy Heap after she refused to side with her father.
  • Mako, for the portion who do not approve of his behavior and his lack of tact handling his romantic situation with Korra and Asami, as well as those who disapprove of his perceived lack of personality (beyond romantic tactlessness). It's gotten as far as him being blasted more than the actual antagonists and there's been daunting wishes for him to die, be written out, or remain alone for life as an outcome. Interestingly (and perhaps unsurprisingly), as Asami's popularity went up, his went down. His Scrappy status skyrocketed after the finale when he breaks free of Amon's bloodbending (the first one to do so) and finally hooked up with Korra when, for some, it wasn't actually clear that he'd broken up with Asami. While not everyone sees him this way, to say the man is polarizing is an understatement.
    • The anger did not cease when it was learned that he's going to be on the police force in Book Two, as opposed to Bolin, who was a popular metalbender police candidate for fans.

As I see it, the entry isn't taking a side, but it is documenting the reactions and why they have gotten to that level.

Actually, the Asami entry seems to have nothing to with her as an actual Scrappy and entirely exists to be a slam to a group of people on tumblr.
reuvas
05:21:50 PM Aug 17th 2012
edited by reuvas
I see your point. And yes we could clean it up. We should clean it up. But I don't think I'm capable of doing such.

Ah the Asami entry. Forgot about that. They use the exact same reasoning. I still don't think that such reasoning should be used. We should list why people thought she was a scrappy, and why some still do.

However, the more I look at it, the more I'm starting to agree with you. I'd be fine if it was left in. Though the word blasted could be changed to something... softer? I don't know. I don't think people having a problem with him more than they do the villains makes him RTDE. I thought that it has more to do with fanfiction...

But! I definitely know that many people demonize far past his crimes in this fandom, so that certainly counts. Maybe the part about being hated more than the actual villains should be taken out. I mean, they're great villains. People aren't really going to hate on them, especially not as much as a protagonist who did a lot of questionable things with little comeuppance for it.

Though then there is the argument that Mako's thought to be a horrible, evil person, and Noatak and Tarrlok gain sympathy for their tragic past which was actually shown... So the DILP compared to the RTDE has some creibility to it. Why do people put pants on Amon and Tarrlok, but horns on Mako?

I guess I'd still go with the theory, the villains turned out surprisingly sympathetic and Mako was attempted to look sympathetic and only got more derailed as time went on...

But they aren't relevant to Mako's status as RTDE, or really as the Scrappy. I see that whoever first put that in was making a point, about the near ridiculous levels of hate, but... it doesn't seem... whatever. Do what you think is best. As you can tell I don't quite have my thoughts sorted out.

Or, due to just how inflammatory the whole deal is, we should probably just keep them as short and objective as possible. Like just list their names, kind of short.

On a random aside, where's the love for Mako neutrals? Can't we have criticisms for him and still tolerate him? What about a middle ground?

Mortrialus
05:42:15 AM Aug 26th 2012
edited by Mortrialus
As I've said before, Mako's satus as a scrappy is 100% irrelevant to his position as a main character or antagonist. That the article goes out of it's way to point out just "how unfair it is that he is hated more than the antagonists" shows bias because being a Scappy has literally nothing, and I repeat NOTHING to do with being an antagonist. That the section goes out of it's way to say "I'ts so unfair that Mako is criticized more than the Antagonists of the series" is just pure 100% bias.
Rebochan
10:14:25 AM Aug 26th 2012
I'm fairly certain it does neither. In fact, whereas Asami's entry seems to exist purely so readers can take pity on Asami for getting attacked by shippers, Mako's is far more detailed. And the point of the statement is to note that Mako, who's greatest crime, I may remind you, is not handling a love triangle well, has his actions treated as if they are worse than terrorism and cultural (and potentially actual) genocide.
Antiyonder
02:18:25 PM Aug 31st 2012
I'm going to try to clarify the Mako hate better without the rudeness distracting from the discussion.

Yeah Amon and Tarrlok have done much worse, but in their case, the narrative treats their actions as wrong. And while Mako's actions aren't on par it doesn't invalidate it as being harmless (Really, cheating on someone while not on the level of genocide or terrorism is hardly as tame as say chewing gum in a classroom or calling someone a childish name like poopyhead). I mean Asami did have to deal with another man she loved who was keeping the truth from her.

But not only do Amon and Tarrlok get called out on their actions, they receive consequences for them. Amon loses support of the Equalists and is killed by his brother, while Tarrlok loses his bending as well as his power & respect in Republic City. Heck even Tahno who's biggest offense was merely cheating in a competition was met with humilation of being publicly debended by Amon.

Mako on the other hand receives no consequences for his actions. I'm not talking death or isolation, but his relationship with several members of the cast should have been seriously strained because of the lack of sensitivity. Maybe have Bolin displaying some disappointment in his brother, and Asami who granted will still work with him for the greater good shouldn't have been so forgiving (I mean, taking the higher road doesn't mean having to be pals with someone just because you're going to be respectful towards them).

Also, just for a bonus comparison. In ATLA: The Desert, Aang gets out of control with rage after Appa was stolen. So much so that Katara has to calm him down. Now when Mako is about to kill an Equalist out of rage, neither Tenzin, Lin, Bolin or Asami try to even talk him out of it or calming him down. Now why is Aang called out on his rage, but Mako's is overlooked?
Rebochan
07:56:22 PM May 16th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.4
Sigh, when did I miss this gem?

"Yeah Amon and Tarrlok have done much worse, but in their case, the narrative treats their actions as wrong."

Mako's actions are not treated as right, but they do have a greater degree of moral greyness. And we do see how mistakes he makes hurt people.

"And while Mako's actions aren't on par it doesn't invalidate it as being harmless"

Which no one has argued.

"(Really, cheating on someone while not on the level of genocide or terrorism is hardly as tame as say chewing gum in a classroom or calling someone a childish name like poopyhead). I mean Asami did have to deal with another man she loved who was keeping the truth from her."

You make it sound like he was actively cheating on her, which he didn't do in the first place. He broke up with Asami, then he confessed to Korra. Unless Korra forcing herself on him is now his fault. I think we have a trope for that.

"But not only do Amon and Tarrlok get called out on their actions, they receive consequences for them."

Like Mako does when his legitimately upset girlfriend gives him a well-deserved ultimatum in private?

"Amon loses support of the Equalists and is killed by his brother,"

So the punishment fits the crime then.

"while Tarrlok loses his bending as well as his power & respect in Republic City."

Again, the punishment fits the crime.

"Heck even Tahno who's biggest offense was merely cheating in a competition was met with humilation of being publicly debended by Amon."

And that was considered a bad thing by the plot and he was shown truly suffering from something well out of proportion to his crime.

"Mako on the other hand receives no consequences for his actions."

...except for all the problems it causes in his relationship with Asami? Which is, by the way, the correct punishment?

"I'm not talking death or isolation, but his relationship with several members of the cast should have been seriously strained because of the lack of sensitivity."

Why would anyone have a problem with him besides Asami? He and Bolin had their falling out, but if two people who literally relied on each other to survive for the majority of their lives completely and utterly fell out over a girl, that would be highly unrealistic. Also, it would make Bolin a lot more petty considering that he'd only gone on one date with Korra AND Mako wasn't the one that tried to kiss her (though Bolin probably didn't see that part since he thinks Mako initiated the kiss.)

"Maybe have Bolin displaying some disappointment in his brother,"

Like when they had a fight that almost cost them something they both loved? I mean, what more do you want?

"and Asami who granted will still work with him for the greater good shouldn't have been so forgiving (I mean, taking the higher road doesn't mean having to be pals with someone just because you're going to be respectful towards them)."

Wait, since when are they pals? They broke up and they're not seeing each other anymore. Which is perfectly valid as Mako feels at the least awkwardness and at the worst serious guilt, and why in the world would Asami willingly spend time with her now-ex boyfriend once the Equalists were defeated?

"Also, just for a bonus comparison. In ATLA: The Desert, Aang gets out of control with rage after Appa was stolen. So much so that Katara has to calm him down."

I think the problem was that Aang had turned into a living god of rage and lost control of his powers. Not that he was upset.

"Now when Mako is about to kill an Equalist out of rage, neither Tenzin, Lin, Bolin or Asami try to even talk him out of it or calming him down."

Because he didn't try to kill him and people using their powers to threaten people on this show all the time. I could give you a laundry list of potentially fatal applications of bending used by the heroes that nobody blinks an eye at. I have no idea why the fuck mako brigade focuses on that one scene aside from needing more reasons to hate Mako and only having so many scenes where he's on camera.

"Now why is Aang called out on his rage, but Mako's is overlooked?"

Because they have nothing in common?
Antiyonder
03:27:43 AM Aug 5th 2013
"You make it sound like he was actively cheating on her, which he didn't do in the first place. He broke up with Asami, then he confessed to Korra. Unless Korra forcing herself on him is now his fault. I think we have a trope for that."

Believe me, I'm just as disappointed with Korra, but since we can clearly agree that she's at fault, there's no point in trying to debate on it.

That still doesn't clear Mako of being at fault, since he never actually tried to stop the kiss, plus you're assuming it's all about the kiss itself. There's also the matter of:

- Episode 10-11: Asami rightfully makes some snarky remarks at him, but he acts like she's the one being unreasonable. You know, having the nerve to expect some honesty. And up until these episodes, I gave Mako some understanding on the grounds I felt he didn't want to hurt Asami, but approached that in the wrong manner. But now, it felt more like he kept things quiet just to save face.

- Episode 10: Changes the subject to "Bolin told you, didn't he". It's fine to be upset with someone if you want them to keep quiet on something, provided that it isn't at another person's expense. Fact that she found out about it from Bolin is Mako's fault for not coming clean. And usually people try to defend Mako on the basis that he was good to his brother.

And really, had Mako just owned up to his part in the kiss and apologized for it in Episode 10, it would be easier to look at him in a better light. I mean for one thing, those two problems I listed wouldn't have occurred.

Plus, some of that Mako/Asami interaction that happened in Episode 11, could have been replaced with Korra apologizing for starting the kiss.

"...except for all the problems it causes in his relationship with Asami? Which is, by the way, the correct punishment?"

How about she breaks up with him since he had no interest in doing so?

I mean where's the actual punishment? A few snarky comments and the threat of breaking it off with him. Chilling.

"Why would anyone have a problem with him besides Asami? He and Bolin had their falling out, but if two people who literally relied on each other to survive for the majority of their lives completely and utterly fell out over a girl, that would be highly unrealistic. Also, it would make Bolin a lot more petty considering that he'd only gone on one date with Korra AND Mako wasn't the one that tried to kiss her (though Bolin probably didn't see that part since he thinks Mako initiated the kiss.)"

Well, speaking for Bolin, if someone wronged one of my friends, even if it was a family member, I'd be pissed.

Korra, you got me there. Before Episode 11, I'd think that she'd be turned off by Mako's behavior on the ground that she was trying to become friends with Asami. But according to the script reading for Episode 11, she backs away from the near kiss for fear of getting her heart broken, rather than because it's unfair to Asami.

And considering how she was so hung up by the loss of her bending, I can't be too sure that she'd be aware of Mako and Asami's break up. So point half retracted.

"Wait, since when are they pals? They broke up and they're not seeing each other anymore. Which is perfectly valid as Mako feels at the least awkwardness and at the worst serious guilt, and why in the world would Asami willingly spend time with her now-ex boyfriend once the Equalists were defeated?"

I guess you forgot the part where they both stated that they "care for each other". Sounds like an implication of them trying to be friends at least.
VeryMelon
topic
03:47:18 PM Jun 27th 2012
I'm getting legitimately terrified by all the attempts to Mako look like shit with all these tropes. On this page alone, there are attempts to place him as Creator's Pet, Karma Houdini, and now Unintentionally Unsympathetic on top of the fact that he's already listed as The Scrappy and under Ron the Death Eater.
Rebochan
04:19:22 PM Jun 27th 2012
edited by Rebochan
It's the hazard of being a controversial character - people start trope fishing for tropes that either A) continue their hate-on or B) express hate for the haters.

On the upside, the page itself has been mostly clear of it and this IS the part of the site to talk about whether, say, Mako is a Creator's Pet, without causing trouble with the page itself until the issue is resolved.
Orihime
01:19:52 PM Jul 4th 2012
edited by Orihime
That is some creepy dedication to character bashing, and yet it's not the only one I've seen here. Characters like Nozomi Kujo from Bleach and Lana Lang from Small Ville have ben listed under all of the Mary Sue tropes due to how much the fandom hates them with or without reason, and I and others often have to clean up Bleach related pages/sections due to all of the Orihime hatred. :/a

Don't be surprised.
reuvas
05:29:10 PM Aug 17th 2012
I think people are either seeing something in Mako's behavior or Mako himself, and then kind of slightly sort of remember a trope to go along with it, but don't actually know its very precise and exact prerequisites to justify using it.

For example, A lot of people probably think Mako is a creator's pet, and it certainly looks like it at times. But technically, as we've all come to an agreement on, he isn't. So we can't make exceptions just because a lot of people see something that doesn't have its own trope. So they try to fit a similar trope onto it, and it all just gets ugly. Because then they start attacking each other... and then the flame wars begin.
Rebochan
05:45:30 PM Aug 17th 2012
TV Tropes fights in a nutshell. Mako could be replaced with a lot of other characters in other shows and the same thing will play out.
Masterofchaos
topic
01:24:36 PM Jun 26th 2012
This isn't a complaint at all, but it seems like half of the entries that were added before are deleted very shortly afterwards. Again, this isn't a complaint. Just something I noticed. :/
MrDeath
01:31:40 PM Jun 26th 2012
A lot of them just didn't fit the trope, weren't YMMV's, or were some form of shoehorning or another, as far as I can tell.
ccoa
01:34:23 PM Jun 26th 2012
Two reasons:

One, it's because it's a popular show that encourages a lot of people to trope it, but unfortunately many editors don't always have a good grasp of what the wiki is for, what goes where, or what constitutes a good example. Given that it's popular, it's no surprise that it's garnered several Wiki Curators who watchlist the page and are alert to misuse.

And there's also unfortunately some elements of a warring fandom at work here. There are a lot of sides who all believe their opinion is right, and it's spilling over into the pages, especially the YMMV page.
Rebochan
06:55:58 PM Jun 26th 2012
The vast majority of my deletions are non-YMMV tropes getting put here either by accident or design. Conversely, I've only seen one YMMV pop up on the main page and need to get moved. Odd trend.
coolman229
topic
11:40:26 PM Jun 25th 2012
I would like to plead a case for Unintentionally Unsympathetic for Mako. It's clear from the finale that we're supposed to like him getting with Korra, but his actions (basically cock-blocking his brother, cheating on Asami, being rude to Korra when she tries to accuse Hiroshi of being an Equalist, having tunnel vision on Korra and ignoring his girlfriend, then being outright demanding of her, refusing to take responsibility for kissing Korra and blaming his brother, and never really being clear with if he broke up with Asami at the end) make it really hard to like him. I'm not calling Creator's Pet or Karma Houdini, even though there is some evidence of that, I just don't feel that he was really sympathetic while the writers meant for us to at least like Makorra.
isoycrazy
05:01:08 AM Jun 26th 2012
I don't see how he cockblocked anyone. This is a kids show. Only serious couples would even hint at having sex, like Sokka and Suki in the first series. Yes, at that time, he had feelings for Korra and impulsively acted on them and kissed her but he didn't think anything of it, he was with Asami and loved her. Korra and Bolin both recognized they were not couple material and better as friends.

As for being rude to Korra, the man she just accused was a generous man who helped them by sponsoring their team when they needed the money, gave him a home when his was lost, and lack any concrete evidence besides overhearing part of a conversation which had a perfectly innocent reason for it.

By the time Korra was kidnapped by Tarlock, Mako's feelings had grown from infatuation to genuine love but he either didn't realize this development this as, as Korra pointed out, Asami needed him more at this time and he accepted that.

When Korra was gone, he probably saw nothing wrong with his actions as he would inwardly justify it as "She's the Avatar. She's a good friend. I don't want to see her hurt or debended."

When confronted by the kiss, he hadn't realized just how badly he was fawning over Korra, he couldn't see how deeply he loved her and so had trouble accepting he was in the wrong. He's a teenager who lost two other people he loved and so probably wanted to not lose anymore close friends, so he hoped by ignoring his previous actions he could keep both Korra and Asami close to him.

In the end, when he said goodbye to Asami, he did apologize to her for causing so many problems. He accepted responsibility for his emotional shortcomings and being unclear about his change in feelings. It happens in real life too. And so Asami and he parted ways, which Asami accepted and agreed that they could still be friends. Her lack of violent reaction but somber acceptance shows this to me.

So he could be Unintentionally Unsympathetic if one doesn't look beyond the base facts.
coolman229
02:38:53 PM Jun 26th 2012
I didn't mean cock-block in the worst meaning of the word. I meant that he told Bolin to not date a teammate, and then he becomes a hypocrite when he started pursuing Korra while still dating Asami. And you shouldn't belittle what Mako did. When Korra accused Hiroshi of being an Equalist, what did Mako say? Did he say that Hiroshi is a kind man who sponsored their team when they had no money and let them stay at his house? No. He accused Korra of being jealous of him and Asami. And no he didn't realize how badly he was treating Asami, and that's the problem. He was insensitive to her at best and outright cheating on her at worse. We're still supposed to give him a round of applause for kissing Korra at the end.
isoycrazy
03:02:18 PM Jun 26th 2012
He told Bolin to not date Korra because one he guessed, and correctly, Korra didn't see him as a possible romance but just a good friend and two dating on the same team when in a high stakes tournament could lead to troubles if a bad break-up happens, which you could say was well-said as Bolin's break down after seeing the kiss followed by the whole team's bad performance in that match nearly cost them the tournament.

His pursuing Korra was under different circumstances. His natural feelings building up made him a foolish teenager for not talking about his feelings to anyone. I'm not belittling, I thinking of the actions in another matter. People have a hard time seeing what they're doing and just who they are becoming (Tarlock and his path for example). Mako is not omniscient, he was being driven by his emotions, his passion, and his pain. He lost his parents in a tragic ordeal and I don't think he wanted to entertain the idea of losing another close friend. If it was Bolin or Asami kidnapped, he would have the same focus and drive to save them and ensure they were all right.

Mako was there for Asami after her father was outed.

As for calling Korra jealous, again he is still a young man who is a teenager. Many don't think things through, many act first then think. Calling Hiroshi an Equalist would akin to calling a white man a KKK member, and thus by extension his daughter must be involved because how could she not know, so by extension Korra was calling Asami an Equalist sympathizer (granted in Asami's case she doesn't) but it is still a serious claim and quite hurtful if Korra wasn't wrong.
coolman229
03:25:21 PM Jun 26th 2012
I've heard a lot of people use his age as an excuse for his piss poor behavior. He still made terrible decisions and strung Asami along when he should have ended the relationship a long time ago. And he only went to Asami because Korra told him. You can look at all of the people who hate Mako when he clearly wasn't supposed to be hated. I think that qualifies for Unintentionally Unsympathetic. Even if you don't think that Mako was acting like a douchebag, you can't deny that his behavior and character development infuriated many fans.
isoycrazy
08:52:48 PM Jun 26th 2012
Hmm. Fair enough. I can agree to Unintentionally Unsympathetic
Rebochan
01:31:41 PM Jun 27th 2012
edited by Rebochan
Unintentionally Unsympathetic is not simply a character that the writers hope the audience likes and they don't. It's meant to highlight a character the writers pile "sympathetic" flaws on that don't come off sympathetically. Read the trope description first.

Forget his relationship problem, has Mako been given any traits like that? I can't support the trope addition if it's not meeting the actual trope description. What you've described is in line with his entry on The Scrappy and would simply be duplicating it.
Blackribbon
topic
07:36:39 AM Jun 24th 2012
I think we should leave "What do you mean it's for kids", but modify the text. Fandom does react like that. Every episode, people left and right say that it's not a kids show. So, the trope is fulfilled and should be here, unless this isn't the right place for it.
eX
10:45:46 AM Jun 24th 2012
edited by eX
Agreed, but as it was, the example description was about the show itself, not about what some fans attribute to it. The irony of the whole thing is of course that it actually showcases the exact behavior the trope is about.

Feel free to re-add it with a correct description.
eX
11:38:25 AM Jun 26th 2012
I cut the examples again. To repeat what I said in the edit reason,, the trope is not about showing that a show is too mature for its target audience, it's about the Periphery Demographic trying to argue that a show is actually aimed at them.

So please, stop listing dark moments in the show as if that would be proof of some kind that the show is not for kids. It was created as a cartoon for children and everything in it had to go past the the network censors. That the show manages to be as grim as it is and still be suitable for kids is a credit to the writers, but the show is neither better nor worse for it.
Mortrialus
topic
11:51:23 AM Jun 20th 2012
edited by Mortrialus
Can Mako be listed as a Creator's Pet, yet?

Hated by fans (The Scrappy): Mako has seriously divided the fanbase and become a scrappy for quite a few. He's already listed as one.

Loved (or worshipped) by the writers: The writers have admitted they are baffled that he is getting so much hate and expect people to forgive his behavior as "typtical." He is also given a name that is extremely important and beloved to the fans and creators of Avatar: The Last Airbender.

Put into big scenes for no reason (Character Focus): Mako is the one to carry Korra to Oggi? Not Tenzin, her surrogate father figure?

Talked up by the other characters (Character Shilling): Mako is inexplicably adored to both females characters his age despite multiple episodes of just awful, awful behavior to everyone around him including his brother. The only time his faults are brought up, his girlfriend is villainized for it. No one else ever mentions any of his serious faults and missteps.
ccoa
12:05:24 PM Jun 20th 2012
edited by ccoa
The problem is that a Creator's Pet requires the writers to know that a character is hated, and yet continue to push that character without changing him or her.

In this case, the series has not gone on long enough for the writers to react to the fandom hatred and adjust to it. Assuming they'll need to at all, we still haven't finished the current season.

Additionally, your last point is very iffy. The only character who sees what he's doing and is hurt by it is Asami, and she is certainly not villainized for it in-universe.

All around, way too soon to be adding this.
MrDeath
12:27:03 PM Jun 20th 2012
I don't see how that last point applies at all. "Multiple episodes of just awful, awful behavior to everyone around him including his brother"?

Seriously, what the hell. I don't see where you're getting that at all.
Mortrialus
01:33:04 PM Jun 20th 2012
edited by Mortrialus
@Mr Death

My blog post I linked.
MrDeath
01:41:42 PM Jun 20th 2012
That blog post has horrendous colors and I'm not going to strain my eyes to read it.

Make your points here. Frankly, I've watched every episode up to now, and I honestly don't see him acting the way you think he does.
Mortrialus
02:23:41 PM Jun 20th 2012
There. White on black. Fixed.
MrDeath
02:37:35 PM Jun 20th 2012
As I said: Make your points here and make them concisely if at all possible. A multi-page blog post about how much you don't like a character is simply not something I care enough about to read.

If you want to make a case that something should be on a TV Tropes page, here is the place to make your case.
Rebochan
02:55:27 PM Jun 20th 2012
I'd also like to add that Creator's Pet does not exist simply to complain that a character you don't like isn't also hated by the rest of the show's cast.
Mortrialus
03:06:33 PM Jun 20th 2012
The reason that post is so long is because he does something incredibly awful in almost every episode since 5. It's that long because it literally takes that long just to list most of it.

And Rebochan, I'm aware of what a Creator's Pet it. I listed how I think he fits the requirements in the first post of the initial discussion. You've been called out multiple times for being extremely confrontation or passive aggressive. Should should listen to the mods and stop.
Rebochan
03:18:14 PM Jun 20th 2012
edited by Rebochan
"Didn't agree with me" =! Being confrontational.

The "writer" you mentioned in your "typical behavior" comment is not a writer, he's the martial arts co-ordinator for the show and has zero input on anything related to the story or its characters. And he flat out stated that he did not say Mako's behavior was okay or make excuses for him. But because I don't like to leave things out of context, here's the actual blog. So there's a massive factual error in your argument right there.

Mako being the only person carrying Korra to Oogi is a "big scene for no reason?" Up to that point in the episode, he'd expressed the most concern for Korra's safety, and it would be strange if he wasn't present at all, let alone if he hadn't had a big reaction. And you're also ignoring that Tenzin and Lin had the first reactions, as they too were the most relevant to that episode's plot.

I'm not even going to get into what you justify as "character shilling". That would require other characters telling other people for the viewer's benefit how amazing a character is. So far, we've had people telling him to his face that he's got problems, and each time that character was shown to be in the right. In particular, Asami chewing him out about his feelings for Korra was presented sympathetically. I don't even know where you're getting the idea that Asami was being treated as a villain.
Virodhi
03:20:17 PM Jun 20th 2012
edited by Virodhi
Thing is, the creators are not shilling him to the heavens and beyond as the best and most fantastic character ever (some of the fans might, but that's a whole 'nother thing). Note that the people in-universe who side-eye him pretty hard for his choices are not portrayed as at all unreasonable for it. The Powers That Be are not telling us where our sympathies should lie, and they do not make him steal the spotlight from the actual hero of the story. So no, he does not qualify, in my opinion.

And if being a pretty typical teenager (with all that implies in the way of glitchy sensitivity and emotional maturity) is being "incredibly awful", then much of humanity is in deep, deep trouble. There are far worse people on the show. Hyperbole does not a point make.

ETA: Er...what Rebochan said in the post above.
MrDeath
05:29:59 PM Jun 20th 2012
edited by MrDeath
The reason that post is so long is because he does something incredibly awful in almost every episode since 5. It's that long because it literally takes that long just to list most of it.

Hilarious, then, that I've watched every single episode and I can't think of a single "incredibly awful" thing he's done. But I think it's obvious what's going on here, and it's got nothing to do with actual tropes.

This is right up there with the guy who kept trying to justify war crimes to make Katara look bad, and the nuts who put together hours-long videos to say that Katara/Zuko was ~meant to be~.
Rebochan
06:40:27 PM Jun 20th 2012
I kind of expect this to continue for awhile, which is why I assume a mod is poking in and out of the page more frequently.
ccoa
07:03:17 PM Jun 20th 2012
I have all the Korra pages watchlisted, partly because I'm a fan, and partly because it's very popular, which spells messes. Lots and lots of messes.
Mortrialus
09:03:54 PM Jun 20th 2012
I guess Character Shilling isn't the right term, but he gets away with a lot of various awful behavior, usually without any criticism from other characters and any real punishment. Two examples: In Episode 7, Mako earnestly thinks so little of Korra, that she is so petty, cruel and jealous, that he accuses her of attempting to frame an innocent man of being a part of a violent terrorist organization. I wouldn't forgive Mako if he said that to me. I don't know anyone that would. At the end of the episode, he gives an apology "Sorry, but Hiroshi Sato being an Equalist is a hard sell." You'd think he'd apologize for the extremely vicious insult he threw at her, but he doesn't and everything is fine between them from a friendship standpoint.

Episode 9 has him threatening to burn an Equalist's face off to get information on a kidnapped Korra. No one bats and eye at this. You'd think Tenzin would since he's part of a culture that thinks life is so sacred they're all vegetarians.

I suppose every episode is hyperbole, but he does some pretty nasty things in 5, 7, 9 and 10.

I'm not saying from a moralistic perspective he is "teh worst evah". I even say that in the first paragraph of that post. And I'm a nonshipper. Never shipped never have. I don't appreciate you strawmanning me like that.

I'm just saying he is currently The Scrappy for me and a lot of other people. His name gives off serious Creator's Pet warning signals, his status as Karma Houdini (Which I admittedly confused for Character Shilling) in regards to his friendships and that there are scene where he is given a bigger role than he should have (The end of episode 9) all point towards him being a Creator's Pet to me. I do agree with ccoa that its too early to be adding it now.
Rebochan
11:57:48 PM Jun 20th 2012
Mako hasn't gotten away with anything. His behavior has been repeatedly called out by non-villainous characters, something that's been pointed out in this very discussion. Even you admitted that he actually apologized to Korra over his behavior with Hitoshi Sato, which already means the character is admitting fault - something a Karma Houdini never does. And I LOVE how you act as if that was entirely unjustifiable, as if Sato was some clearly mustache twirling villain and not someone who had everyone in the damn city believing he was a kind and benevolent corporate benefactor. Gosh, it's not like he gave Mako a generous corporate sponsorship that allowed him to continue to support his brother, or opened his home to the both of them when they were turned out into the street. No, Mako should have believed Korra when she had no evidence. And especially when she'd already once tried to sabotage his relationship with Asami by forcing herself onto him (yea, that still happened, by the way.)

As for the "threat"? People do it on this show all the time. Including good guys. Including KORRA. You're also making "Mako held up a fire ball while pinning a guy to the wall and yelling at him" sound much more violent and sadistic.

I did not call you a shipper, and once again, your "arguments" are full of factual errors. I did skim your "article" and it's more of taking every single scene with Mako and doing some incredible gymnastics to make him out to be the villain. I mean, seriously, you compared tending to a sick comrade to breaking into a teenage girl's home while she sleeps and staring at her for sexual pleasure. You're even trying to use his name as an excuse to slap a Creator's Pet label on him.

Take a chill pill and stop trying to fish for tropes to slap on this guy.
ccoa
06:12:17 AM Jun 21st 2012
edited by ccoa
Okay, let's just stop this now. You admitted that what is going is not Character Shilling. Without Character Shilling, the character cannot be a Creator's Pet.

Therefore, the debate about that trope is effectively over, and we can agree to disagree about what an awful person Mako is.
Orihime
06:20:05 AM Jun 21st 2012
edited by Orihime
Agrreing with Rebochan here. Mako does NOT get away with shit - all of his actions have had bad consequences not just for others, but for him. Neither Korra nor Asami are happy with his behavior in the love triangle (specially Asami, and we're supposed to empathize with *her* in the argument), the whole Korra kiss caused him problems with Bolin too, trusting Hiroshi blew up badly, etc. Also, the narrative doesn't support him either: i.e, as said already, Asami is the one shown in the right in their argument, and the POV makes it VERY clear. Mako is NOT supposed to be seen as in the right, and the fact that not everyone wants to bash his face in-story doesn't mean they approve of his behavior.

This is also an example of how the concept of Creator's Pet is losing its meaning, like Canon Sue and Mary Sue before; it's now so used to bring down characters that people don't like, that the claim "X and Y is a Creator's Pet" now equals to "I hate X and Y and I will call them Creator's Pet to make everyone hate them the way I do!", Character that YOU (general you) don't like =/= automatic Creator's Pet, and attempting to use the Creator's Pet lable to force the hate of them down people's throats is NOT the way to go.

PS: Using one's own posts as proof of such claims is a double-edged sword. It can give the impression that the author is attempting to force their POV's via presenting their own opinions as facts/proofs.

PS2: My apologies to Ccoa, I was typing up this reply when you posted the notice and didn't see it 'til I had pressed "save". :(
coolman229
11:23:47 PM Jun 25th 2012
I'd actually agree with OP here. Mako did get away with a lot. He even ends up with Korra after constantly attempting to cheat on Asami. But it was ok because Korra is happy. This is presented as a happy ending, despite the fact that Mako never took responsibility for kissing Korra, and even blamed his brother (yeah, way to go bro). Asami is the only person to call him out. Even Bolin easily forgives him. There is definitely evidence towards Mako being a Creator's Pet.
ccoa
07:48:18 AM Jun 26th 2012
edited by ccoa
Still doesn't fulfill the requirements for Creator's Pet. In order to qualify, a character must hit all of these points:

He doesn't hit the last one, and the third is debatable.
MrDeath
09:07:38 AM Jun 26th 2012
"Constantly attempting to cheat on Asami"? Citation Needed.
coolman229
03:56:13 PM Jun 26th 2012
I'd need to rewatch the show again, but there was a scene (Skeletons in the Closet, if I remember) where Korra was sitting by Naga, and Mako comes up to her. He cuddles right up with her and moves in for a kiss, but Korra turns away. Yeah, he wasn't cheating on her every second, but he certainly made moves on Korra while still with (and neglecting) Asami. Do we have any word from Bryke on what they think of Mako? I don't think I've heard where they stand on his behavior.

And thinking about it, Mako being a loving brother comes across more as an Informed Attribute. But we'd have to wait for the second season to see if he really is a Creator's Pet. Ok. He's not officially a Creator's Pet. Yet.

ccoa
09:06:57 PM Jun 26th 2012
An informed attribute? When he was so worried about Bolin when he was kidnapped? When he takes care of his brother like a parent? When he hugs his brother and says "love ya, bro"?

I don't want to be mean, but I think you're viewing the character through a very warped lens. I won't claim he's a saint (I'm pretty "meh" on Mako), but let's not distort what's there.
MrDeath
12:22:30 PM Jun 30th 2012
So, not "constantly," at all. Maybe once (the kiss in Spirit of Competition was initiated by Korra, remember). And I think you're mischaracterizing that scene in the finale. Mako doesn't "cuddle right up with her", he sits next to her. He looks at her for a few heartbeats before she gets up. You're making it sound like he was a lot more forward than he actually was.
reuvas
08:47:22 AM Jul 31st 2012
edited by reuvas
"Whether it be an attempt to make us like the character, a way of quickly establishing that someone new is a badass a level above anything we've seen before or whatever the case may be, other people will be extremely impressed with this person and let we the viewers know about it."

"You're the first person to ever get the better of me. I'm impressed. It'll almost be a shame to take the bending of one so talented... almost."

Wasn't Amon's open praise of Mako suspiciously unnecessary? Mako seemingly breaks the 'rules' of lightening bending, both by shooting lightening from simply his fingers without any movement, and with a look of rage on his face, contradicting Iroh's talk of needing inner calm and peace to successfully separate the energy. Granted, he's not extremely impressed, but he's Amon, he's not exactly a fount of emotion.

That scene, and that dialogue seems like nothing more than an excuse to make Mako look cool, because, hey! Even the big bad is impressed with him! Mako's so badass guys! Seems like they're going out of their way to 'reward' Mako in the finale, i.e. give him screen time that is dedicated to upping his baddassery. The lightening bending isn't what tips it in my opinion, but Amon's praise for him.

This sounds like character shilling to me... thoughts? I don't hate Mako, so no need to get on my case for that, but the creators kind of know that Mako's hated- as to why they so rudely dismissed people with legitimate problems with his character as mere 'angry fangirls', and why Mako became more the star as the series went on. (rescuing Korra, helping the herione take down the bad guy, doing more damage to said bad guy then the main character until she unlocks her trump card, and then expressing his love for the herione, and then getting it returned. It seems as if the series tries to make Mako's accomplishments more impressive than even Korra's) Combine that with the fact that a lot of people do hate Mako... and I can see him being a creator's pet. I don't think we should discount it. I understand that creator's pet carries... implications, and it would be a controversial move, so we don't have to add it.
MrDeath
09:21:53 AM Jul 31st 2012
...So one person complementing him once on something legitimately impressive is shilling?

No, no it's not.

And as for "breaking the rules," you do recall Azula shooting lightning when she was batshit fucking crazy, right?
reuvas
09:35:51 AM Jul 31st 2012
When she was super powered by a comet. And, Azula's a sociopath, or even a psychopath. She has a warped psyche so we can't claim to know what was going on in her head during her duel.

And if that one person goes out of their way in the narrative to compliment someone when they normally wouldn't over a skill that seems shoehorned in that breaks the Magic A is Magic A rule... then it seems like shilling to me.

It seems out of character for Amon to offer such praises. It feels more like a tool, to manipulate the audience's perception of Mako...
MrDeath
10:15:01 AM Jul 31st 2012
edited by MrDeath
Having more power wouldn't make generating lightning any easier if it's based around being at "peace." And was Ozai "peaceful" when he shot lightning at Aang or his son? It's not about just whether Mako is angry at the time or not—it's more about not being conflicted within, and in that moment? No, Mako wasn't conflicted.

You're acting like Amon was bowing down at his feet or something. He took a grand total of two seconds to say, "That was a pretty good shot." That's it. He acknowledges that he was hit, that's not "shilling.".

Apparently the only way Mako isn't a Creator's Pet is if he just sits there and does nothing impressive, nobody comments on it, and he gets dumped by everyone, right? Because seriously, all of this about him being a Creator's Pet just appears to be completely irrational bullshit, as if someone decided, "Mako is bad, therefore everything he does, happens to him, or is said about him has to be something bad," and it's just tiring.

Was Katara a Creator's Pet because she mastered bloodbending? Or because she took down Azula and Zuko was thanking her for saving his life? Or because she displayed extraordinary skill in Waterbending and ended up hooking up with Aang?

No, no, wait, Aang's clearly a Creator's Pet—he's the Avatar, so he gets all kinds of cool powers, we're constantly told how powerful he is, the whole plot revolves around him, and he gets to save the day all by himself.

This is, not to put too fine a point on it, frigging ridiculous.
reuvas
11:30:51 AM Jul 31st 2012
edited by reuvas
I don't think you know what a sociopath is. Ozai and Azula have inner calm and peace, because they have no shame, nor doubt, nor angst. They're perfectly composed- they literally have themselves convinced that they were in the right in every way, and could do not wrong. Their whole mindset is shifted from reality. Ergo, they have inner 'peace'.

Mako? He's a normal guy. And yet he's able to shoot an extremely powerful stream of lightening sustained for several seconds with just his fingertips, all while he's clearly enraged?

No, it seemed like a stunt for drama and coolness points.

And, um, 1) I'm not even saying he's a creator's pet, but that he could be. And 2) Katara and Aang don't count. They're allowed to have cool powers, because Aang's a god in human form, and Katara, not only was a prodigy, but worked really hard to achieve the level she was at. Not saying that Mako isn't a prodigy, but we're not shown this. With Katara, we're shown, from the beginning.

Aang and Katara are based around showing, not telling. No one ever tells Katara that she's the greatest thing ever.

Pakku admits that he was impressed, but she still lost their duel, and was still sloppy- but it was her passion and drive that impressed him, and convinced him to teach her. Aang compliments her a lot because he's her friend, and he likes her, and she deserves it. Hama compliments her because she's also a master, and was teaching her. All those situations made sense.

Mako's situation was based around telling. Amon has to literally tell the audience that he's impressed, so that the audience would be impressed too? You don't need Amon to say it- all feelings toward 'breaking any rules' aside, it was still pretty heroic and impressive in of itself, but Amon's there being all "See audience? Did you see? Mako's so cool!"

The first series gave its characters amazing powers and skills, but didn't shove them down our throats.

But it's also in this series. Asami's a kickass driver, and an awesome fighter. No one ever goes out of their way to tell her that. No one ever goes out of their way to tell Korra that she's an awesome bender, save to comfort her. The wiki itself says that Bolin exhibits a rare skill for earthbending (not touching the ground) with relative ease... and this is never even addressed in the slightest in the series. Everyone else uses their powers and skills naturally, and anytime said skills might be brought up by another character, the dialogue is natural and sensical. It's not, "Just so the audience knows, even though they just saw it for themselves and have probably already made this conclusion, you're really impressive. Even I the main villain said so, so it has to be true."

The point is that the creators made a deliberate choice to vocally praise Mako in their dialogue. Amon's dialogue just didn't make sense, which pinged my suedar (as well as many other people's). I was suspicious of the writer's intentions with those lines. And this was immediately after watching that, on the day it aired.

Actually, Amon saying "That was a good shot" Would be a much better alternative. To say, "You're the first person to ever overpower me." Seems like it's reaching. It's like a self-insert sue goes and, not only beats the bad guy who never before could be beaten, but said bad guy then openly reminds us of this.

So, why give this special mention toward Mako? I can see no other reason than Mako is the creator's favorite. And no, I actually don't think he can be called a creator's pet- yet, hence why I said could be. Because this was already finished by the time book one came out, and people actually started getting butthurt over Mako.

However, there's evidence of giving special treatment to Mako, which if it's not already could become shilling, the creator's very much know of all that hate Mako's getting, and seem like they're going to ignore all of it and continue to keep handing things to Mako's character. So... I'm wondering if he won't become one by book two.
MrDeath
12:01:23 PM Jul 31st 2012
edited by MrDeath
You know, I had a longer reply to this, but honestly, all that needs to be said is you're overreacting to a two-second line and really reaching to try and make an argument that's already been shot down. The rest isn't even worth responding to, because the very arguments you're using show you've made up your mind and no amount of argument or fact is going to change it. Please, cut it out.
ccoa
12:16:38 PM Jul 31st 2012
Mr. Death, stop strawmanning other people's arguments. Yes, it's irritating that people have let their hatred of the character flow over into our pages, but the rules of logic still apply.

If we're not arguing that the trope fits, why are we even still arguing here? I suggest we shelve this until season two.
reuvas
01:38:31 PM Jul 31st 2012
What hatred? How does being disappointed with a character = hatred? I'm arguing in the interest of a YMMV trope that I think could be validate by book 2. But, yes, the verdict is out until book two, I'm willing to concede that.

And since when is analysis = overreacting?

"the very arguments you're using show you've made up your mind and no amount of argument or fact is going to change it."

Um... isn't the point of an argument is that you believe in your own side, and you're trying to convince others to see it that way too? Which I'm not dead set in them, I'm willing to listen to other opinions, and I've even conceded to other opinions. So...

Sorry if I didn't immediately note the error of my ways and defect to your side of things, I guess I don't know how to argue properly :/

There is such a thing as subjectivity you know. Gee, I wonder why it's called your millage may vary. Perhaps if you employed it, and were respectful to your opposition, then your own arguments would be validated. Oh, but I already was validating them, and respecting them, but you clearly don't do the same.

What is logic? I'm done with this. Literally, because the mod's right, we should wait until book two. But also metaphorically, because you're mean!
MrDeath
02:03:48 PM Jul 31st 2012
I'm with CCOA. No point in arguing this if you're not even arguing it's the trope, and this is the last I'll say on it, but I will address this point, however, since it seems I was unclear.

—"the very arguments you're using show you've made up your mind and no amount of argument or fact is going to change it."

By this I mean you're citing things as evidence which directly contradict the point you're trying to make, in this case, that Mako being angry meant he shouldn't have been able to conjure lightning, contrasted against other lightning users in the series.

This implies either you're unaware of that evidence existing, or you're ignoring it, deliberately or otherwise, which indicates a lack of intention of arguing in good faith. You said:

Ozai and Azula have inner calm and peace, because they have no shame, nor doubt, nor angst. They're perfectly composed

I refer you to the finale, where Azula is, as mentioned, bat-shit crazy, full of doubt, ashamed of being pushed aside by Ozai, and drowning in angst. And still fires off lightning without a lick of trouble. To a lesser extent, Ozai is clearly enraged at Zuko when he fires off lightning on the Day of Black Sun.

In contrast, when Zuko tried and couldn't get the lightning to work, he was not at all outwardly angry. He was as calm as he ever was at that point in the series.

If Azula can summon lightning while going through a full blown psychotic delusional breakdown, then why raise a stink about Mako summoning lightning while being angry at exactly the right guy he should be angry at?

Iroh, when he's talking about creating lightning, talks about being conflicted. Zuko was all kinds of conflicted, and thus couldn't summon lightning. Azula and Ozai were clearly enraged at various points they summoned lightning, but weren't conflicted about it.

Mako was angry, yes—but given we see him bending lightning with relative ease in episode 3, he's clearly not conflicted, and in that moment there's no reason to believe he was at all conflicted about who he was or what he had to do. Ergo, he can summon lightning.
ccoa
02:18:32 PM Jul 31st 2012
Okay, maybe I wasn't clear enough: Knock it off.

If you want to debate whether or not Mako using lightning in the finale breaks Magic A Is Magic A, Take It to the Forums.
ccoa
topic
12:23:23 PM Jun 13th 2012
Pulled:

This does not have enough context to tell if it fits, and I'm not psychic enough to read the editor's mind.

Personally, I don't see the Unfortunate Implications here.
LianYon
07:27:04 PM Jun 13th 2012
I'm thinking that the Unfortunate Implication that the editor intended is that since she is a female, she automatically needs to have a boyfriend/love interest.

Wrong use of the trope, though.
Rebochan
01:32:06 AM Jun 15th 2012
It would only be an unfortunate implication if the previous series hadn't similarly set up a romance arc for it's own main character, in that case, a young boy. Which they set up with the first episode. Which means technically Korra actually waited longer to set up its romance plot.
Orihime
09:01:04 AM Jun 18th 2012
edited by Orihime
I don't see it either... but one can arguably see Unfortunate Implications on how several fans (specially of the "fake feminist" kind) start complaining the moment a female character is (GASP) involved in ANYTHING romantic, whether it's well-done or not. Apparenty, these specific parts of any fandoms believe that female characters should be forbidden of having anything similar to romantic feelings at all to be respected as Strong Women - which is extremely misogynistic in itself.
coolman229
11:35:00 PM Jun 25th 2012
I could see Mako cheating on Asami with Korra, then getting with Korra instead of Bolin, who explains why he likes Korra and even took her on a date, gets shoved to the side says that it's ok to cheat if you really like the person you're cheating with, and that being a nice guy will get you nowhere.
ccoa
07:37:51 AM Jun 26th 2012
And that has... what to do with what we're discussing? Seriously, can we not cram Mako hate into everything?
coolman229
04:06:28 PM Jun 26th 2012
Sorry. I meant that the way the show presented things, Mako was dishonest and ended up with the best ending. I felt like that was what came across when I watched the show. I'm not trying to cram Mako hate into everything. I think I'll just stop posting stuff here and save everyone a headache because I just keep getting flak for it. I obviously can't look objectively at this.
LianYon
topic
08:30:45 AM Jun 13th 2012
edited by LianYon
Romantic Plot Tumor

Okay, I keep on seeing this pop up on the trope page and YMMV and then it gets deleted, so it seems like there's an angry Makorra fan running rampant. I'll post it here because it shouldn't be removed because there's a rampant Makorra fan. That's the whole point of YMMV: not everyone agrees with the trope. Removing it is stupid because there's a ton of people on tumblr and on Avatar forums who feel this way, too.

I don't support any ship, but most fans are agreeing that the romance in Legend of Korra, specifically Mako and Korra has turned into a Romantic Plot Tumor. I can explain why without hating on Mako or Makorra in general. Proving the relationship does not have substance does not equal hate.

  • Neither Mako nor Korra has specifically stated why they like each other. There is a ton of fandom speculation, but the most we know is that Korra likes Mako because he's handsome and potentially because he's a decent firebender. Mako, on the other hand, has never said anything about Korra other than "she drives him crazy". Without any believable feelings for each other, there's no point in the relationship even being a part of the series.

  • Mako and Korra moments have been used at the expense of developing other characters. For example, Bolin. Bolin has been the victim of Mako/Korra probably the most, Asami second. The worst offender was episode nine. No one but Mako (Tenzin and Lin) actually seem to care Korra is missing until Asami talks to Bolin. Even after that, there's no reaction to indicate Bolin or Asami care Korra is gone. Some people argue, "Why should they?" Korra saved Bolin's butt and Korra revealed Asami's father's plot, saving her from being forced into the Equalists. The ending is the worst abuse of this yet; Mako pushes Tenzin out of the way to get to Korra. Tenzin, as shown again and again, cares a lot for Korra because she is the reincarnation of Aang. He is like a father to her. If Mako/Korra moments weren't so dang important for god knows why, Tenzin would have kept Mako away and let Korra actually have some space. Also Asami and Bolin. Did Not. React. AT ALL. Like I said, the characters of everyone in that scene were completely thrown out for a Mako and Korra moment. There are many other times Bolin's character is shafted at the expense of Mako/Korra, but whatever.

  • The season is shorter, so the romance takes up too much time. Romance in a 12 episode shoujo anime is fine. Cramming in a Love Dodecahedron into a 12 episode action series filled to the brim with conflict just doesn't work. If Mako/Korra had been Canon from day one like Kataang, it would have worked. Building a character (such as Bolin) on purely shipping moments is really lousy. Seriously, all of Bolin's character development was in that shipping episode.
ccoa
12:26:07 PM Jun 13th 2012
I removed it the first time, and I'm not a "rampant Makorra fan". I removed it because it had been put on the page after 5 episodes.

Reading Romantic Plot Tumor, in order to qualify, the romance sub-plot must eclipse the main plot - that was not the case then, and I'd say that's even less the case now. While the romance is present, it has nowhere near enough screentime to threaten the main plot.

LianYon
07:24:21 PM Jun 13th 2012
Now that I'm trope browsing, it looks more like a Token Romance at this point.
ccoa
05:19:35 AM Jun 14th 2012
edited by ccoa
Yeah, that seems more the trope to me.

Could also turn out to be type 3 Strangled by the Red String if Mako and Korra do end up together this season. Have to wait and see how that turns out.
Rebochan
01:56:16 AM Jun 15th 2012
Nope, it's not a Token Romance. If you removed the romance, entire episodes would be rendered incomprehensible without massive rewrites and a completely overhaul of how the characters interact with each other and the world at large.

It's also not a Romantic Plot Tumor because it's part of a greater plotline, in which the way these characters deal with their hormones lets them grow up. For goodness sake, part of the resolution to Episode 7 was Korra realizing that Asami's well-being was more important than a crush on Mako and ensuring that Mako took care of her in a time of need. Yea, that really sounds OMG MAKORRA 4EVER.

You know. Like the last series, except with older characters.

I took the trope out because it's obvious there's an anti-shipper on board that willfully ignores the actual main plot to pretend that the entire show is nothing but Mako and Korra's sexual lust. I mean, really? Episode 9 according to this troper is apparently NOT Korra's self-discovery, or Lin finding her men while redeeming her own pride, or Tarrlock's undoing through his own actions. It's apparently all about a plot that took about a minute of screentime which had built off of previously established character traits and scenes. Also, apparently Bolin and Asami can now be safely reduced from complex characters with story arcs of their own to "shipping fodder." Wow, and here I thought the character arc about Asami losing her entire life and being betrayed by those closest to her was relevant (and hey, I guess it's totally not relevant that such a deep and brutal betrayal of trust might make her really paranoid). But nope, its apparently a show entirely about how she'll be dumped by Mako because OMG MAKORRA and nothing about Asami is relevant except how much of an obstacle she is to OMG MAKORRA. And apparently her actual worried reaction didn't exist in this alternate universe, along with Tenzin and Lin, who reacted FIRST to finding Korra. And furthermore, in this alternate universe, Tenzin's reaction to one of Korra's closest friends trying to help her out would be to bludgeon him for touching her for some reason (also, when did the relation to Aang annd it's importance to Tenzin ever come up past the first episode? It's really never been mentioned, and that's actually bugged me all series).

I know this may be hard to accept but maybe...just maybe...shows are in fact allowed to contain subplots about characters love lives that don't in fact have anything to do with fans expecting everyone to pile onto each other in a massive orgy. You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean slapping tropes that don't fit onto it because you're not a fan of romance.
Rebochan
01:58:55 AM Jun 15th 2012
edited by Rebochan
Oh, and if they do get together, I'll probably go to the mat on Strangled by the Red String too because much like the last series, way too many get way too obsessed with romance on this franchise and scream till their faces turn blue if their chosen couple doesn't get together. Mako and Korra have plenty of reasons to try and hook up as a couple, whether that's actually going to work or not.

It depends on execution, not the mere existence.
Mortrialus
02:53:44 AM Jun 15th 2012
I'm casting another vote for Strangled by the Red String. Honestly, as a nonshipper, Mako liking Korra came from absolutely nowhere starting episode 5 and has been extremely forced and distracting once it showed up to the point of Character Derailment in my opinion. Mako is established as very protective. Okay. We saw how Mako reacts when Bolin, his only living family member, was in serious danger after being kidnapped. He was concerned and worked to rescue him, but he kept a cool head. Mako when Korra was kidnapped was willing to burn an Equalist's face in his rage to get information about her. That's just sloppy inconsistent writing because of the romance subplot. Bolin, one of the main characters, has gotten considerably less dialog than Korra, Mako, Asami, Tenzin, and Lin in literally every episode following "Spirit of Competition. And his involvement has gotten less and less each episode since then. He just got completely sidelined once episode 5 showed up.
ccoa
06:12:35 AM Jun 15th 2012
edited by ccoa
I don't want to argue this too much before the series concludes, especially not with Rebochan, but from Strangled by the Red String:

Roy and Missy do interact very frequently, maybe having romantic chemistry or even Unresolved Sexual Tension, but when they fall in love, it's done in a clumsy or poorly written way that doesn't make their getting together seem believable.

Again, it really depends on how (and if) it's written in the end, but this, like the poster above me, is the vibe I've been getting so far.

There's a reason that trope is YMMV, at any rate.
Rebochan
09:23:22 AM Jun 15th 2012
edited by Rebochan
Starting in Episode 5? Did episode 2 and 3 not happen?

And Mako did not keep a cool head for much of it. He flipped out. He didn't calm down until he and Korra had a plan later in the episode (i.e. when they knew where he was.) In Episode 9, nobody had a plan to find Korra except "look harder."

Plus, in Episode 3, nobody knew about the real threat Amon presented yet. In Episode 9, everyone knew, hence Mako would logically have a stronger reaction to knowing Korra (or anyone he is close to) is being held by them.
ccoa
09:39:15 AM Jun 15th 2012
edited by ccoa
Labeling and complaining about the opposition is not a way to debate in good faith. Kindly keep it civil.

At any rate, we seem to agree Romantic Plot Tumor doesn't fit, so the commented out warning stays.
Rebochan
09:46:18 AM Jun 15th 2012
I edited my last post for the sake of civility.
Mortrialus
11:12:08 PM Jun 18th 2012
Now that I've had this pointed out to me, the whole romance subplot might still be a Romantic Plot Tumor because it overshadowed Korra's original reasons for coming to Republic City: To master and learn airbending and spirituality.
marheavenangel89
11:11:21 AM Jun 19th 2012
Adding another vote to Strangled by the Red String, If Makorra was just handled like Kataang, like you know, hinted from the start and they didn't have Asami or Bolin as just some romantic drama plot devices, NOR do we even really see WHY they fall in love, they just DO....it could of been better. I understand time constraints, but I've seen great writers pull things off in a short amount of time, no reason this series can't be the same. Besides, it's a YMMV trope page, some people find it a YMMV, some don't. So no reason to not add it.
Rebochan
04:18:55 PM Jun 19th 2012
How has the romance plot in anyway overshadowed anything in this show considering that it's had considerably less total screentime? I'm also fairly certain Korra's original reasons for showing up did not involve breaking up open rebellion or competing on a pro-bending team (both of which take considerably more plot time than the romance arc), so that's not valid either. That's not even getting into the fact that Lin's entire plot arc has taken up more time in the last several episodes than the romance arc, but I don't see anyone calling Spotlight-Stealing Squad on her.

YMMV is not a dumping ground for fandom ranting, you still have to have a valid trope.

Oh, and as far as Strangled by the Red String, you can't declare it before anything's happened, though I suspect due to the shipping base this fandom has, the entry is pre-written and will go up as soon as the ending credits roll for the series finale.
Mortrialus
10:39:36 AM Jun 20th 2012
As I said, Korra's love triangle has completely overtaken and overshadowed one of the original plots of the series; Korra mastering airbending and the spiritual side of being the Avatar. Both of which have been completely abandoned aside from Korra getting some flashbacks.
ccoa
10:53:47 AM Jun 20th 2012
edited by ccoa
I think it's too early to say they've been completely abandoned - it's almost certain to be involved in the series climax due to this originally being planned to be a stand-alone season.

I don't really agree that it is the main plot of the series, either.

Rebochan, your ranting about the fandom is getting old, fast.
Rebochan
11:10:53 AM Jun 20th 2012
The main plot of the series is stopping Amon from debending everyone, something that started before the romance plot in fact. When has that stopped being the focus in favor of who's boinking who?

When has Korra stopped working on the Amon problem in the last few episodes to even vaguely worry about her crush on Mako? The one person bringing it up repeatedly is actually Asami...and not in front of Korra.
marheavenangel89
07:03:06 AM Jun 22nd 2012
I wouldn't say it stopped the focus more of...kinda of distracted that focus. Romance in ATLA never felt like it was distracting from the focus, it blended with the show. The romance here...at times it feels to much, like a teen drama. Part of the problem is obviously time contraints, but it felt they could of edited some of that drama out and instead developed characters or fight scenes more. But again, that is a YMMV, which is what this page is correct?
ccoa
08:13:16 AM Jun 22nd 2012
But it's still not a Romantic Plot Tumor, because it doesn't overshadow the main plot. Romance overshadowing other subplots is not the trope.
Mortrialus
01:20:23 PM Jun 23rd 2012
Now that S1 is done, you know, the original story they wanted to tell before S2 began production, has finished, can we add Strangled by the Red String yet? Because I fucking hated the romance in this series in ways I didn't know was possible.
Rebochan
03:38:13 PM Jun 23rd 2012
Only if you can be neutral, not bash, not exaggerate, and acknowledge that like all ymmv entries, not everyone agrees and they are not bad for thinking so.

If you "fucking hated it", you might need to calm down first. I'd suggest said trope get drafted here first to cut down on edit wars and inevitable threadmode natter.
kappapsi
09:15:35 PM Jun 23rd 2012
"Only if you can be neutral, not bash, not exaggerate, and acknowledge that like all ymmv entries, not everyone agrees and they are not bad for thinking so."

Do you think maybe you could try doing this too? All over this thread your replies have come across as very hostile and sarcastic.
Rebochan
01:02:49 AM Jun 24th 2012
Only in response to the more hostile attitudes presented.

You may have noticed I did not write trope entries on this page on these more difficult topics for that reason. Unfortunately, too many people mix up YMMV tropes with "Fandom whining dumping ground." For example, Strangled by the Red String is explicitly not a trope intended for complaining and is very clear that a couple in its pages is not a condemnation of the couple or the plot itself. A trope entry on that topic that just whined endlessly about Mako while making more and more flame bait is not the point of that trope at all.
isoycrazy
04:23:42 AM Jun 24th 2012
I am against Mokorra being labeled as Strangled by the Red String because I feel the writing was done well. The clues are there if you know what to look for, such as Mako's apology to Asami which signified his sadness he messed things up between them but also he knows now while he does care for Asami deeply, he cares for Korra even more.
Rebochan
11:42:46 AM Jun 24th 2012
The point of the trope isn't that a couple is bad, but that some people feel it was underdeveloped.

I noticed someone added it already, but it was really tame. I cleaned it up a little to point out that there's still another season (so calling anyone OTP is premature), but hey, as long as it isn't a big rant about the characters or the writers, then I may have regained a little bit of faith in the fandom...

...*sniff* I wanted Dokorra.
Elle
10:57:01 PM Jun 25th 2012
edited by Elle
Agree with Strangled by the Red String - people are allowed to disagree with it but this is YMMV, and a lot of people genuinely didn't interpret the "breakup" as a breakup. Plus, I'm not at all sure what Mako and Korra like each other for. Maybe season 2 will do better with it.

So, proposal for the entry, feel free to steal (it was deleted as of this writing with a "wait for it to be resolved in Discussion" which is why I'm here instead of adding it myself):

Strangled by the Red String: Mako and Korra's promotion to Official Couple in the Book 1 finale. Rabid shipping asside, the Love Triangle between them an Assami progresses from "Korra trying to force her affections on Mako while he's dating Assami" to "Korra growing up and telling Mako to be with Assami when she needs him most" to "Oh, Mako has a thing for Korra after all and is suddenly being insensitive to Assami". Also, the scene between Mako and Assami that probably signified their official breakup confused a lot of people because "I'm sorry for how I acted and whatever happens, I still care for you" does not sound a lot like a clean breakup. Nor is it really ever made clear why they fell for each other beyond Korra's initial infatuation. Book 2 now has a chance to flesh things out, however.
ccoa
07:44:48 AM Jun 26th 2012
"Oh, Mako has a thing for Korra after all and is suddenly being insensitive to Assami" isn't quite the right order, since it was made clear that Mako did have feelings for her before he was insensitive to Asami.

Hmmm.

  • Strangled by the Red String: Mako and Korra's promotion to Official Couple in the Book 1 finale. Rabid shipping asside, the Love Triangle between them and Asami felt rushed and underdeveloped, with complications resulting from and reasons for their attraction glossed over, told instead of shown, or quickly buried. Asami and Mako's breakup scene being easily misinterpreted didn't help matters. However, the show still has at least one more season to flesh things out.

Any better?
marheavenangel89
09:27:32 AM Jun 26th 2012
That wasn't a break up scene, I have a link somewhere on tumblr, but even Bill said that a break up between them possibly happened off-screen, if it did (he was being vague kinda imo). Which...still doesn't help things if the break up was offscreen. All things aside, ccoa has a nice neutral post that has my vote.
MrDeath
09:58:52 AM Jun 26th 2012
It was a break up scene, just a subtle one. You don't tell someone, "I still care about you," unless the relationship has changed in a fundamental way. He was leaving half of what was meant unsaid.

What he meant was, "This isn't working out, but I still care about you."
ccoa
01:07:16 PM Jun 26th 2012
edited by ccoa
Okay, trying again:

  • Strangled by the Red String: Mako and Korra's promotion to Official Couple in the Book 1 finale. Rabid shipping asside, the Love Triangles between Mako, Korra, Bolin, and Asami felt rushed and underdeveloped, with complications resulting from and reasons for their attraction glossed over, told instead of shown, or quickly buried. The ambiguity of whether Mako and Asami broke up during the season and whether or not Bolin was over Korra didn't help matters. With one more season to set things aright, however, whether this applies in the long run or not is still up in the air.
ccoa
09:26:44 AM Jun 28th 2012
Okay, since there are no objections I'm going to go ahead and put this up.
isoycrazy
11:19:23 AM Jun 28th 2012
I don't feel they were "strangled" but then this is YMMV so go for it.
Elle
11:12:08 PM Jun 29th 2012
A bit late, but yeah, ccoa's is fine.
Rebochan
topic
12:54:39 AM Jun 10th 2012
edited by Rebochan
I deleted Base Breaker and Broken Base for getting insanely out of hand. At this point, it's just "OMG, I just read this on Tumblr!" instead of any meaningful gauge of an actual fanbase reaction. I've reproduced them so they can be pruned to something more meaningful, but they should NOT be re-added as-is, they're getting excessive.

    Base Breaker 
  • Base Breaker:
    • Meelo. Fans either seem to love him for his cute and quirky ways, or dislike him for being annoying and strange looking compared to the rest of the cast. Which is strange when Meelo is clearly an expy in appearance for his grandfather as well as the more childish elements of Aang's behaviour.
    • Ikki. Adorable Motor Mouth who was the focus of a hilarious Lampshade Hanging over Zuko's mom, or evil little brat who kept the fanbase from finding out the answer to one of its biggest questions? Some fans have expressed a desire for Ikki to be captured or even killed by the Equalists, while others want Ikki interrupting important things to become a Running Gag.
    • Korra herself had her devotees and detractors even before the show started, and so far the episodes have not changed their minds.
    • Asami Sato remains contentious because of her relationship with Mako, inviting Die for Our Ship sentiments (as well as misogynistic slurs) from the less pleasant Makorra shippers. Many like her for her Tall, Dark and Bishoujo looks and badass moments of character development in episode 7, while others stubbornly continue to assert that she's secretly evil, despite fairly substantial evidence indicating otherwise.
    • As of episode four, Mako has received criticism from segments of the fandom for his perceived rudeness towards Korra. Critics point to his brother being more considerate toward Korra and making a better effort at friendship, even if Bolin's interests are more than just friendly. Some, especially among Makorra shippers, have labeled him as shallow for falling so easy for Asami's looks, being hypocritical in dating a fangirl (something he had criticized Bolin for doing in the past), and accepting Asami demonstrating her privileged background while previously reprimanding Korra for mentioning hers. Defenders of Mako point out that Korra has never made her feelings clear to Mako while Asami did, he knows of Bolin's interest in Korra so he's simply jealous, that being a hypocrite may simply be his Fatal Flaw, and that he has been "the adult one" in his Promotionto Parent role - it was time that, well, he acted like the teenager he still sorta is.
      • As of 'Out of th Past" fandom criticism increased for his rudeness towards Asami this time. This also caused a massive Abandon Shipping from both sides, as they now seem to agree that both girls are better off without him.
    • The entirety of "The Spirit of Competition" is essentially one massive Base Breaker when it comes to shipping. Some Makorrians are happy about the episode. Others are not, as Mako and Korra's kiss comes at the expense of Asami and especially Bolin, turning what they assumed would be a victory into a sad moment. Borra shippers are also divided, as some see Korra's treatment of Bolin as callous, while others are just happy their ship now has canon support. And the Masami shippers are either angry at Mako's actions towards a girl he isn't dating or pleased that he reminded Korra about Asami twice to stave off her advances. On top of that, some fans are even blaming Pema for the whole confusion, as she gave Korra the advice to confess to Mako. Not to mention the people crying "Too much shipping" because of an entire episode was dedicated to it. It was one hell of an episode.

    Broken Base 
  • Broken Base:
    • The fan base is divided over the Steam Punk setting, even though the original series already used it on a smaller scale.
    • Confirmation that Tenzin is Katara and Aang's son has paradoxically caused a resurgence in Zutara/Kataang shipping wars (complete with Die for Our Ship).
    • A comment by Andrea Romano revealing that the entire original cast is dead prompted some sections to deem Korra and her crew Replacement Scrappys. Romano was either mistaken or lying, since Katara and Zuko are still alive, but a few people still think of the Fire Ferrets this way.
    • With the new trailer some fans began debating whether or not the setting is too modern. There are also some concerns that the setting has become too Western.
    • One of the biggest points of contention is over Korra's race and ethnicity. One side insists that Korra is a woman of color, and fanworks depicting her with lighter or white skin trivialize the importance of having a dark-skinned woman as a main character. The other claims that race is a nonissue with fictional characters, and Korra's skintone should be a matter of fan creators' individual preferences. Rather curious considering that Korra shares an ethnicity and skintone with Katara and Sokka, and the Water Tribe are explicitly based on the Inuit.
    • Another contention over Korra is the depiction of her build. Much like with the aforementioned skintone issue, it largely breaks into two camps. The first decries any fanwork that depicts Korra with less developed muscle tone than in canon. The second camp claims that Korra's build should be a matter of fan creators' individual preference. Depictions of Korra with greater muscle tone than in canon draw far fewer complaints.
    • Following the online premiere of the first two episodes, the fanbase fractured again, this time over whether or not Korra is being written as a white saviour-esque character in regards to bender privilege.
    • According to an interview, each arc of the series will have its own story arc and Big Bad, which means Amon and the Equalists will likely be exclusive to the first season. While some are happy that the series will feature multiple villains, the idea of Amon being replaced in the second season has a lot of people upset (though Amon no longer being the Big Bad doesn't necessarily mean he'll be going away permanently).
      • Of course, as of "When Extremes Meet" this can also be interpreted as meaning that Tarrlok, rather than Amon is the actual Big Bad of season 1. Or vice versa.
        • Not after Amon takes his bending in "Out of the Past."
VeryMelon
02:40:31 PM Jun 10th 2012
The Asami entry in basebreaker looks fine, everything else should stay gone.
Rebochan
09:45:00 AM Jun 15th 2012
Well, I didn't see anyone else contribute much, so for now, I'll re-add the Asami entry.
xVanitas
topic
08:40:19 PM Jun 7th 2012
Complete Monster has been added, saying that everything that has been revealed about Yakone makes him one.

But... what exactly has Yakone done? I'm actually just curious, everything has just been implied or just seen in a flashback, but I do want to know what it is he has actually done. I have read that it also involved Bloodbending, but could someone elaborate, please?

On top of that, if nothing explicit has been seen or stated about Yakone, could he even count as a Complete Monster just yet?
Elle
11:09:01 PM Jun 25th 2012
Yakone was explicitly stated to be a serial murderer, which is why he was in the courtroom in the first place. There's also the revelations about his past in ep. 11, and what happened to him after being de-bent, and how he went on to have a family and what he made his sons do. He had a shot at redemption, taking a kind woman to be his wife and starting out as a decent father, but blew it when he found out his sons were waterbenders and set out to turn them into his tools of revenge.
xVanitas
topic
11:45:26 PM Jun 5th 2012
Tarrlok. Love to Hate? Is he worthy of being liked because of his now revealed villainy?
duckofdeath
10:53:55 PM Jun 6th 2012
I woudn't say that he's quite despicable enough yet, he still has some claim to being a Well-Intentioned Extremist, even if he is openly power-hungry. Wait an episode or two and I wouldn't be surprised if he pitched over into this territory though. For me the Gold standard for Love to Hate is Joffrey Baratheon. The key there is that you get a buzz of sheer hatred because you can not only see how his selfishness and sadism is devastating and killing others and that he has no empathy whatsoever, but also that he has no sane reason for doing what he does other than being a petulant child. I'm just not getting that feeling from Tarlock yet.
xVanitas
08:49:56 PM Jun 7th 2012
I always thought Love to Hate was a villain that you know full well is evil, you hate them for doing what they did to the main characters or the story or whatever, and yet, you admire it in some way, maybe you go, "Oh, that clever little bastard / bitch", they're entertaining, or whatever.

Like Discord from My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic. A god of chaos, screws over the mane characters, and the entire world, and sends it into a state of disarray and chaos. The effects are very amusing (literal chocolate rain, dancing buffalo in tutus, cotton candy clouds, upside down buildings, one of the characters acting like a playful dog, etcetera), and it doesn't hurt that he's Laughably Evil, but his actions are devastating at the same time (the mane character is sent past the Despair Event Horizon, losing all hope and having lost her friends to Discord, the world is a wreck and the Big Good is nowhere to be found, at the time).

In this case, I saw Tarrlok as a clever bastard, and while I hated everything he has done, especially to Korra, and knowing that he's psychotic, a Bloodbender, and just downright evil... the fact that he was simply just a smug Jerkass before, and surprising me in that he's actually a damned effective villain, makes me hate him, but love how effective he was.

But, since it WAS just revealed, we would have to wait an episode or two to see if his villainy would continue, right?
SeptimusHeap
topic
10:32:35 AM Jun 3rd 2012
This entry became the subject of an Edit War. Also, it doesn't look like an example.
  • Moral Event Horizon: Hiroshi Sato and the lesser equalist mooks cross it in "The Aftermath", as they are willing to send Tenzin (who is among the last survivors of a race victimized by genocide and the only member of the council even remotely considerate of non-benders) to Amon to be debended and/or killed. Since Hiroshi already knew Tenzin as a person, this becomes even more heinous of him.
    • Tarrlok in Episode 8. He deliberately created laws that restrict the rights of non-benders edged to it, but the way he enforces them crosses into being a Complete Monster. He cuts off electricity, herds the non-benders into circles to round them up for containment, and arrests three of the Krew members under loose definitions of the laws. To make it worse, he personally ships Korra out of Republic City at the end, removing the only person capable of bringing balance. It makes one wish Amon materialized out of nowhere and remove Tarrlok's bending.
duckofdeath
12:03:16 PM Jun 3rd 2012
Yeah I don't think either one of those counts as a moral event horizon. Moral event horizon means that there is no way the character who has crossed it can ever be redeemed or viewed as a sympathetic character, neither Amon nor Tarlok are really irredeemable yet.
xVanitas
01:37:04 PM Jun 3rd 2012
Could they still be viewed as sympathetic? Amon's got his backstory, having lost his face and family to a Firebender (However, it's not sure how reliable that is), but what about Tarrlok? I don't see him as sympathetic in the slightest.
Iaculus
03:19:30 PM Jun 3rd 2012
There's clearly a complicated backstory behind Tarrlok - look at how he freaked out when Korra compared him to Amon. Nothing we've seen so far is remotely sympathetic, but we haven't seen all or even much of his character yet.
duckofdeath
08:17:38 PM Jun 3rd 2012
I'm not saying that he's sympathetic now, just that he hasn't done enough bad that he couldn't potentially be viewed as sympathetic in the future, or that he was redeemed. Besides, even if he were a Complete Monster that action still wouldn't qualify as a Moral Event Horizon because that alone wouldn't be enough to make a different character into a Complete Monster. Now if he were taking Korra away to torture or murder her (which he might be but we don't know) that might qualify as a Moral Event Horizon.
Iaculus
01:39:21 PM Jun 4th 2012
Remember - it's possible to cross the Moral Event Horizon without being a Complete Monster.

You can be totally irredeemable whilst still being capable of regretting your actions and preforming altruistic acts.
duckofdeath
12:50:59 PM Jun 5th 2012
I know that I just don't think that Tarlock or Amon are irredeemable either. I feel that either one still has a (admittedly extremely slim in Tarlock's case) chance of seeing the error of their ways or possibly getting a sympathetic POV similar to what happened to Jaime Lannister in Storm of Swords. In Amon's case I believe that whatever else he may have done, he is sincerely devoted to an essentially unselfish idea, however misguided he may be in terms of how to pursue it.
Rebochan
07:37:44 PM Jun 24th 2012
...you know, in light of how the show actually turned out, this comment was surprisingly prescient.
duckofdeath
topic
04:51:32 PM Jun 2nd 2012
Thinking of adding a double standard entry. People keep comparing Tarlok and Amon's respective curbstompings of Korra to rape, this seems a little unfair given that in both cases she was the aggressor and in Amon's case he didn't even take the opportunity to kill or de-bend her once he defeated her. Also, while you can argue that it's being portrayed in a way that suggests rape, Korra isn't acting traumatized like a rape victim would, and Amon doesn't really act any different to the other (male) benders that he actually de-bends and no one cried rape when Katara bloodbended people in the original series.
Jordan
04:56:55 PM Jun 2nd 2012
edited by Jordan
Where do you see the Double Standard? Korra does show trauma after that encounter (immediately afterward and she's shown to be rattled whenever she hears his voice on the radio), and Tahno- you know, male-is shown to be even more so traumatized (actually,it kind of plays like a symbolic Rape as Redemption) so it's not like the show plays up the debending of a female character and downplays that of a male character.

Bloodbending didn't really get a "rape metaphor" in the original series, regardless of who was doing it and the gender of their victim(s). It was basically presented as Black Magic/a magical form of torture that was not ok for anyone to use.

Edit- Granted, depending wasn't presented as rape when Amon did it to those male gangsters (and was going to do it to Bolin); it was more like a public execution metaphor.
duckofdeath
12:00:36 PM Jun 3rd 2012
The Double standard is that Amon and Tarlock are portrayed as "raping" korra when they're really just defeating her in combat because they're male and she's female. Thus they get portrayed as rapists when they're really just Combat Pragmatists.
Jordan
02:16:47 PM Jun 3rd 2012
After watching the episode, I'm not so sure that Tarrlok is portrayed as a metaphorical rapist by the show (fandom is another story). It seemed to me at least that bloodbending had the same portrayal as it did the last series- an unforgivable action that evokes horror because of how it takes away the victim's will and kills them with their own body. Arguably, bloodbending is kind of inherently "rapey" regardless of the gender of the user/victim.

As for Amon, I do think his actions toward Korra were portrayed as rapey, although they were also shown as rapey when he debended Tahno.

duckofdeath
08:23:02 PM Jun 3rd 2012
I was mainly referring to a double standard in the fandom rather than the show itself. I don't really buy that Bloodbending is inherently evil or "rapey" but that's a matter of opinion.
VeryMelon
06:34:35 PM Jun 4th 2012
Just add the entry then, you don't need anyone's permission here.
Rebochan
topic
07:31:47 PM May 27th 2012
I keep deleting the Draco in Leather Pants entry because Tahno clearly has a deeper character than typical examples of that trope. Also, because the entry is literally X Just X with no explanation...thus suggesting to me that the person repeatedly adding the trope either can't justify it or needs to re-read the trope and then properly justify it.

I'm hardly a big Tahno fan, but he's been shown sympathetically since his bending got taken away. Clearly, he's not a hero, but he's not evil either. He may even be in the cards for a proper redemption for all we know - since the show is STILL RUNNING, we have no idea how the character will turn out and the fandom response to him may be justified in another five episodes.
ANewMan
01:15:00 PM Apr 17th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.43
I know this is old, but err...Draco Malfoy, the trope namer, was shown sympathetically as of book 6 and 7. That doesn't make the fandom's response of whitewashing all his Jerk Ass and even evil actions before and after in any way justified.

Sure we're meant to feel pity for Tahno after he's be de-bended, but that doesn't retroactively whitewash everything he said and did back when he was a jerk, a bully, and a cheater. But that's exactly what the fangirls were doing to him since day one. Making him out to be a good guy and potential love interest for Korra, and usually these same fans were hoping Asami turned out to be an Equalist spy. A Draco in Leather Pants doesn't stop being one just when they're given sympathetic qualities. If you absolve them of all wrongdoing just to make them look less flawed, your still giving them that treatment. Tahno fits the bill exactly like Draco does.
back to YMMV/TheLegendOfKorra

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