Keep it off the page. Seems like a vehicle for people (more subtly than usual, at least) complain about Mako.

And given it... kind of wasn't the time (Korra was REALLY depressed, Bolin acting cheerful did not help) I think Mako's actually in the right.

Plus it's so minor. I mean, one minor snap between brothers shouldn't bother anything.

I think the fact that it does upset Korra is a pretty strong argument for it not simply being informed wrongness. I also think it's less what Bolin said and how he said it. Plus on top of that, Mako didn't succeed at breaking her mood either because he threw a heavy subject at her that just further upset her.

...you know, neither one of them is terribly good at talking to people.

Complete Monster examples are to be discussed here, but no, he doesn't count, given that he loves his wife (she's the reason he does evil things), and he at least once loved his daughter. His story isn't necessarily finished yet either, so he could display better or worse behavior later on.

Also, it is not clear how many people were killed during the attack, but millions seems very, very unlikely and is not at all implied by the show.

Oh no, it became clear and confirmed by Asami that he doesn't feel any love for his wife anymore, he is so consumed by hatred. He refused to see that his actions would never be approved by his wife.

But his actions were still irredeemable, and he still crossed the Moral Event Horizon. Like I said, he had no remorse or second thoughts for the eradication of Benders, and had no qualms killing his only remaining family. The fact that he gave up everything his wife stood for invalidates his claim that he feels love for his wife. It wasn't about revenge anymore, he became a total hatemonger.

What matters is that he did love his wife. And he's using what was once love as justification for his hatred.

He's a terrible person and hatemonger to be sure, but not quite a Complete Monster. Asami turning against him obviously hurt him (since he was shown to be longing to reunite with her back in "Turning the Tides") and so the only way his insane, hate-filled mind could rationalize the situation was "You have been corrupted beyond any help, I must KILL YOU!" He probably would've gone through with killing her 'cause he was so insane, and would no doubt blame the benders for turning his daughter against him. Again, this shows that the man is out of his mind, but not pure evil like Ozai or Yakone.

The last point I'll make for why Sato should not be added as a Complete Monster yet is because Daniel Dae Kim is confirmed to have done voicework for Book Two, which means we haven't seen the last of the character. It's a good idea to never add characters from a story/series that is still ongoing until it's complete. One moment you might think someone is a Complete Monster, but then they'll do something to prove that view completely wrong. (In fact, it happened with Tarrlok in Book One.) So let us wait and see if Hiroshi redeems himself in the future or only gets worse before we make a final judgement.

Also being completely spoilered is bad.

Oh man, I completely missed that. Ass Pull has got to be one of the most abused tropes on this site. Yea, it's not, people are just all mad their stupid Women In Refrigerators plot didn't happen.

It was a total Ass Pull, hence why I added it. She was basically given all the powers on a Silver Plot Platter, in the most contrived and out of nowhere way possible. It's totally jutfiable.

Airbending and Avatar State? Not asspulls. Those were foreshadowed and alluded to all along; honestly it was weirder that she hadn't gotten the Avatar state yet. Airbending was simply Die Or Fly. And the Avatar using the freaking Avatar State is about as Magic A Is Magic A as you can get.

However, Spirit Bending? Asspull. It honestly was a bit of one in the original series, but at least it was led up to and Aang had to learn it. Korra learning it from a past life instantly just so the show can have a Golden Ending?

Literally the entire season is about her learning to airbend. It is impossible for something to be an asspull if it's something the character has been trying to do since five minutes into the first episode.

The Avatar State was clearly shown as something the Avatar is capable of from the first episode of the previous series. The Avatar going into the Avatar State is also completely incapable of being an Asspull because it's a fundamental part of the nature of the character.

It's like saying it's an asspull that a character with prominent wings can fly.

Aang learned Spirit Bending when the Lion Turtle touched him. That's about the same amount of effort Aang expended to teach Korra.

Less. Firstly, people were calling that an Ass Pull in the first place. But Aang at least had to find the lion turtle (which I believe was alluded to in the Library episode in the second season), and had a conversation building up to it.

Korra just spoke with Aang and learned it. I'm certain there's never been any sign that an Avatar has learned a full style of bending through the Avatar State. Aang's used them before (he used water-bending to preserve himself when he ran away) but never actually learned it. Seems like it would defeat the purpose of the Avatar traveling to learn styles if he can just learn it from his past life.

Energy bending can be taught by just touching people, while no other forms of bending have known to have that trait (I'm curious as to how it died out in the first place).

Korra learning energy bending through Aang is just as much an Ass Pull as Aang learning it from the dragon turtle. Sure, we've heard of dragon turtles, but their connection to energy bending wasn't established. At the same time, learning directly from a past life has also never been established, but Korra trying to connect to her past lives is something she's seen striving to do for a good part of the season.

I feel one is as much of an Ass Pull as the other, so either both are, or both aren't.

Like I said, during the first series' run people were crying out Ass Pull in the first place. I personally think Korra's was even more of an Ass Pull, but even if it's just the same, I think it's enough to qualify.

Airbending and Avatar State, however, are not an asspull by any stretch.

I'm gonna have to agree there is some Ass Pulling going on here. The ability to restore bending would be, on its own, alright. But coupled with Korra just learning to fix everything all at once, it's clear the writers just needed to come up with some excuse for everything to end hunky-dory.

I'm going to add Spirit Bending as an Ass Pull, but not Airbending or Avatar State. Let me know if anyone still objects.

I still object - the entry in particular isn't even factually correct. Aang learned energy bending from a spirit and had previously used the Avatar state to channel abilities other Avatars had. Korra doing exactly the same thing is not an Ass Pull.

Also, they did build up to that the entire series. Korra needed to learn to communicate with Aang and struggled the entire show to do so. Finally making that breakthrough when she was herself completely broken is the end of that storyline. Seriously, I can't believe I have to keep pointing this out a year later.

It's like "learning new information" is now "Ass Pull" simply because you didn't like what you learned.

Ah, no problem. I like discussions with you, Rebo. You're usually pretty level-headed. And... I just seriously enjoy any discussion on the YMMV that isn't about Mako.

Anyhoo. The issue with Spirit-bending in Korra is that it seems less that she's channeling Aang to spirit-bend, but through Aang she permanently learned how to spirit-bend at will. Keep in mind Aang, even when fully empowered, could only spirit-bend in the Avatar-state.

And while the Avatar state itself was clearly foreshadowed and built up to the entire season, spirit-bending really wasn't. It was used by Aang in a flashback and mentioned occasionally, but not really foreshadowed that Korra would be able to do it.

And I repeat, spirit-bending was largely considered an asspull in the original series. ATLA at least introduced the situation that granted it to the main character more than five minutes before the show ended. I just checked and see now that it was recently pulled from that page, but the point remains that a not-insignificant portion of fans saw it as such... and honestly, I see Korra's use of it as even more of an asspull.

I don't, by any stretch of the imagination, dislike the ending of the series. Call me cheesy, but I'm glad it ended on a high note like it did. Even so, I can't help but feel a bit... wary about the way that happy ending was brought about. I don't even think of it as that bad of a thing, but I just think that it came out of nowhere (the name of the trope makes it sound... really, really bad, but I don't think it necessarily has to be, you know?). Given a sizable portion of the fandom sees it that way as well, I think adding it to a YMMV page would be reasonable.

I'd point out first that spirit and energy bending in the first series still isn't an Ass Pull and that's really been hashed to death a lot (if it popped up on the ATLA page again, that's not good.)

Here's the thing though - as I said, the whole series was building up to Korra being able to master her spirituality to the point of contacting Avatars of the past and achieving Aang's power level (air bending was the exact same conflict - it was all about Korra's spirituality). Using a power that we already established can undo blood-bending to undo blood bending isn't an Ass Pull - and it's not unreasonable that Korra, upon achieving an Avatar State, could be capable of it. It seems pretty obvious to me from her appearence during her spirit bending that she's accessing that level of power. This show has shown more than a few times that this kind of power growth is possible, as well as powers behaving abnormally. I don't think it was a coincidence that they highlighted several people who did "the impossible" in the last series.

Maybe you're right about the name though - in spite of our Tropes Are Not Bad mantra, there's no way a trope with a name like that doesn't just encourage "I hated this plot point" and not "This plot point feels under developed." Argh, I think that's really what bothers me - it's a really judgemental trope name on something that shouldn't inherently be judgemental. Another forum though.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaand I completely forgot about this.

You must admit that Spirit and Energy bending in the first series were seen by many as an Ass Pull. I know, I know, a vocal minority doesn't make things right, but on an already subjective trope like this it still does have some significance. It's since been removed from the page, but as of my writing it was still there. And I get that people have done things that seemed impossible over the course of the series, but my issue with this one is that, in the last five minutes of the series, Korra suddenly gets a boost in power to give the show a Golden Ending. Her struggles with the Avatar state were well foreshadowed, so I don't even mind that. I wouldn't even call her getting her bending abilities back through the Avatar state an Ass Pull. It would be one thing if she used Spirit Bending in the same way as in the first series, but she busts out with a brand-new use of Spirit Bending (there's never been any instance of Super Empowering in the Avatar universe). We've seen the Avatar State trumps Bloodbending, but we've never seen the Avatar State undo depowering before.

Maybe a rename is in order, but given the sheer number of wicks that the page has, I doubt a TRS thread will accomplish anything.

EDIT: FYI ATLA is on the Ass Pull page.

Yea, I forgot about it too, sorry about that. Again though, I think the key point is that nobody is technically being "depowered", as in, losing their abilities entirely. We know Amon was using a form of bending and furthermore, that he could only really debend what he was aware of, as shown by Korra being able to keep Airbending. Knowing that the Avatar State trumps bloodbending, which is itself a form of water bending, it's common sense that she can undo it. She isn't shown doing anything more powerful than that.

Oh, as for the ATLA entry, I know I've pulled it at least once. In fact, I spotted my own mention on the discussion page for it, from Jun 2012. Unfortunately, the history of the page is only going back to the start of May, so I'm not sure when it came back. Guess I'll just start another discussion there...nobody seemed to argue last time.

In my experience, by the way, you'd be surprised about TRS threads and renames. Just having a lot of wicks isn't a barrier to a rename (it's more of a problem on a deletion.)

I just don't think it's common sense that the Avatar State can undo Bloodbending. Given the flashback, I can see the Avatar State undoing Korra's own bending block (you're right, that is just an extension of Aang overpowering the bloodbending), but it's that Korra can successfully and easily do it to others that really comes out of nowhere. Katara, probably the foremost expert on Bloodbending at the time, was unable to undo Amon's bending blocks.

So basically, if rebending Lin was Spirit Bending, that's unprecedented because no one has restored someone's bending before. If it was bloodbending, it's equally Pull-ish because Korra was able to do it even though Katara couldn't.

But no one has taken anyone's bending before - except the Avatar. In the Avatar State. Korra couldn't use it until the last episode, hence she couldn't undo it before that point in time. It's common sense because we explicitly saw Aang was powerless against Bloodbending until he used the Avatar State, at which point it was completely harmless. The same should be able to apply to Korra.

Furthermore, we already know that Katara doesn't know much about Bloodbending and was deliberately not a master of it. Amon was a naturally talented prodigy who was so powerful he didn't even require a full moon to do it and had invented entirely new applications of the talent. Whatever Katara was doing was trying to reverse engineer a technique she wasn't wholly aware of. It's much like how metal bending as a skill didn't even exist until Toph discovered it - and many, many Earthbenders still can't do it even if they watch her practicing it.

For what it's also worth, They Wasted A Perfectly Good Plot got an example sectionectomy largely because it turned less into a page to document, say, unexplored plot threads genuinely raised by the text, and more turned into a big list of people complaining that their personal story ideas never showed up in the text. This example definitely leaned towards that.

Well, since I suppose I'm one of those "social justice" people Rebochan referenced, thought I'd comment.

There might be a case of What Do You Mean Its Not Political with some of this, but my impression was that the show deliberately set up the Equalists as initially seeming to be sympathetic/initially made it appear that nonbenders were disadvantaged, but then went out of its way to disprove these.

IMO, the Equalists do ultimately seem to be a Strawman of equality movements, especially given The Reveal that their leader wasn't actually a nonbender and its possible didn't really give a damn about the goals of the movement. And its also kind of galling that the series sort of went with the idea that the oppressed group (nonbenders) weren't really oppressed and in fact were the real oppressors.

I admit that it is quite possible that myself (and others who share this view) might be reading too much into it. IIRC, Rebochan's interpretation is that the Equalists were intended by the show to have something of a point, in which case they wouldn't be a Strawman.

I tend to disagree (I think how if at all the second season treats this will clarify things). Overall, I'd probably consider the Equalists to be Unintentionally Sympathetic.

Incidentally, I was kind of amused when I saw the actor who voices adult!Aang was in the second Atlas Shrugged movie. Maybe my suspicion of the show having an Objectivist bent wasn't totally off base...

I think the issue is that it's more Black And Gray Morality or Gray And Gray Morality since the Equalists weren't presented as strawmen.

They're SUPPOSED to have a point. Thus not this trope.

... in any case I am just ecstatic to have a fight that's not about Mako.

The reason I feel it’s a case of strawman is because the bending gangs are almost completely written out after “The Revelation” except for the reference to Asami’s mother and the fact that “When Extremes Meet” shows a clear example of nonbenders being oppressed however the ending completely glosses over this presenting beating the Equalists as happily ever after rather than having someone say “Hey, maybe we should do something so something like this doesn’t happen again. Let’s get some nonbenders on the council and do something about that firebender thief whose killing everyone’s parents.”

Where's the Strawman? The bending gangs ceasing to be a threat means all their past aggression goes poof? Dealing with the immediate threat of Amon and treating the city not being in absolute chaos and proving that Korra is now a competent Avatar capable of doing her job means...uh...what are we strawmanning?

I know it's not the "FUCK THE MAN" ending the social justice crowd wants, but that's not this trope either.

Warning, wall of text ahead...

First, obviously some these issues kind of depend on how if at all the second season addresses them. I wouldn't be surprised if bending gangs pop up again, especially since Mako is joining the police force, and it seems like an obvious narrative thread that his past would come back to haunt him. In terms of nonbenders overall, I'm not sure how much the show actually meant to imply they really were oppressed at all, so I'm not sure if I'd expect the second season to show any efforts to help them post-Amon.

I don't really think the show needed a "FUCK THE MAN" ending- I think outside of any political implications, part of the issue is that it initially hinted (or at least seemed to hint) at nonbenders being disadvantaged, which would make a certain amount of sense given the overall world; however, the show ultimately seemed to run with "X Men plot" of muggles oppressing the super-powered, which doesn't fit as well with the setting. And I think I have the right to say that given the setting, I would have preferred a "Korra helping oppressed nonbenders" plot to one of "Korra fighting evil nonbenders".

In terms of the "strawman", it seems to me that if you want to attack a social movement you don't like, some of the things you would do is a) have that movement's leader be a hypocrite manipulating his followers for his own ends; b)have people from the group the movement is supposed to represent comment how they actually aren't being benefited by it/it doesn't represent them; and c) have the social movement behave a lot worse than their former oppressors (see Persecution Flip).

All of these are things the show does toward the Equalists. Now obviously, they are not a real political group/aren't complaining about a problem that exists in the real world, but I think people generally understand them as equivalent to some kind of left wing revolutionary group/social movement (although, there are some aspects of them suggesting A Nazi By Any Other Name).

You are of course right that immediate problems were more important at the end of the series, and that Korra's Character Development is definitely important. However, I think that because the show has Amon and his followers create so much destruction, at the end of the day, any oppression nonbenders were shown to face earlier in the series just doesn't seem that important (this goes back to how Persecution Flip can have the Unfortunate Implications of implying the oppressed group are actually worse than their oppressors).

Yeah, Strawberry, that winds up being more What Happened To The Mouse than Strawman Has A Point since, as Rebo pointed out... there's no strawman.

I don't... really see the relevance of the bending gangs being written out.

Hmm, you know, I think you may be right- while I think the Equalists may be a strawman of left-wing social movements, it isn't really clear yet if they have a point (although I think the show goes out of its way to show that they don't), and hopefully, the second season will generally give some more detail about how Republic City works. And I feel pretty sure that the bending gangs will be mentioned again.

So, I'd say the Equalists are likely a Strawman Political, but Strawman Has A Point should probably go for now.

The first episode has a bunch of benders harassing a bunch of nonbenders, and it's implied—if not outright stated—that the major gangs in the city are either entirely or primarily benders. And then one of the Bender council members takes extremely unfair actions against nonbenders, who appear to be centralized in some kind of ghetto.

The Equalists might be the badguys, but they do have a point inasmuch as there are benders who abuse their power over those who don't have it.

I think the Equalists aren't really Strawman Has A Point. Knight Templar or Well Intentioned Extremist maybe, Jerkass Has A Point most likely, but the disparity between Benders and non-Benders is real and the ability of the Equalists to get the support they've gotten is borne out of this.

How are the Equalists straw men of left-wing movements? How are they in any way a caricature of progressives, left-wing movements, or Occupy? The reason I keep complaining about the "social justicers" is because they seem to be intent on forcing their weak grasp of genuine social issues into a children's action show and complaining that because it isn't a long essay reinforcing their beliefs, it's Randian propaganda sold to children.

I mean, seriously, if they're supposed to be straw anything, then why show scenes that humanized Amon both before and after the revolution? Why portray the death of the Lieutenant as sympathetic? Why depict Hiroshi with a legitimate grievance if he's a mustache twirling leftist villain? Why take the time to show the city fighting violence with more violence if the Equalists are oh so evil and bad? Where's the caricature, where's the mockery? Where's anything that indicates they are clearly weak and silly people with stupid ideas that are easily mocked and torn down?

Oh, and why take the time to point out that the neediest of the population had actually started creating a network where people with or without bending capabilities simply treated each other as equals? Since they didn't exactly have means and money would be scarce, they simply shared what they had so they all survived. Guys, that's communism. Right there.

Also in real life, I'd recommend you read up on real social revolutions and how they normally turn out when they turn to violence. They're usually filled with sympathetic people who really do want the best but most of the time, they devolve into chaos and frequently become just as dangerous as the people they overthrew. French Revolution? October Revolution? These were populaces that were driven into the ground by oppressive aristocracies, but as soon as they seized control, all that followed was bloodshed, followed by the same people being oppressed again. Unfortunately, this is reality - it is very rare that civil unrest that gets to the point where the populace turns violent ends peacefully. On a grander scale, it is likely that devotion to an ideal drives people to stop reasoning, but I'd also hold that mob rule is generally not a peaceful rule in the first place. Once the Equalists realized they had means to enact their vision on the world, they chose like many to do so by force and completely lost sight of why. It doesn't mean they had no legitimate grievances or that beating up all the Equalists makes everything better, though it does deal with the immediate threat of open warfare.

You know, it's hard to argue with that. You raise a lot of good points, especially wit your interpretation of Gomu and co. And I'm not blind to actual revolutions- I totally agree that the Equalists' violent actions/overreactions are pretty accurate as a parallel to actual revolutionaries- my issue is more that they are really only implied to have legitimate grievances for the most part, and I'd say that real revolutionaries generally have much more legitimate complaints.

I don't see Sato as a political strawman, especially because his reasons for joining the Equalists are more along the lines of personal vendetta than ideology. I think he's a fairly complex, realistic character, although I would note he goes pretty quickly from sympathetic Anti Villain to nut trying to murder his own daughter.

I think my biggest problem with the Equalists is that while it took a while, the original series showed the average Fire Nation citizen to be an ok person and had an amusing take on its mooks as being punchclock villains. Morever, the Gaang felt sympathy for the Fire Nation. While a few major characters in the Equalist movement get some shading (Amon, the Lieutenant and Sato), there isn't a comparable depth given to its average members, nor do the protagonists show any sympathy toward the movement's goals (although granted, they are definitely sympathetic toward nonbenders).

Re Amon and his backstory, I do agree that he is presented with sympathy, although I will e note that Tarrlok is clearly presented as the more sympathetic of the too, and we only have Tarrlok's word that Amon really believed in his ideology (calling him Amon since cannot spell his real name).

Yea, Fan Nickname is not intended to be a dumping ground for insults. If that trope is starting to collect them, it needs a cleaning, not further perpetuation.

Yeah, agreed. In addition to having never heard the nickname "Whorra" before (... outside of an inside joke with friends who replace the title of many different shows with "whores," but that's wildly irrelevant), Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement still applies.

I don't see a problem with this. I mean, a lot of people interpret him in a lot of other ways. I think it's sufficient to simply mention that there are other ways though. You know how the M-word always manages to stir up trouble around here...

Yeah, that is definitely over the top. But it really is a pretty persistent attitude in the fandom to make Mako into some kind of monster ( Exhibit A-Z right here), so I think we should keep the entry, albeit in a much more neutral tone.

Agreed to keeping a neutral entry. There's a line between reasonable character critique (which is why he's The Scrappy), and actually seriously portraying him as a murderer and a psychopath (which is this trope).

I'm not sure how the entry mutated into what you quoted though - it actually seems to be suggesting he deserves to be portrayed that way.

As before, it's not a matter of having worked with the actors before.

DBB played frakin Momo and Appa. It's a meaningless transition to cast him again as a different character. GDL was Azula. Unless she plays Azula's identical granddaughter in Book 2, it will similarly be meaningless.

I can't imagine anyone cared enough about The Last Airbender for the casting of Yue's actress to matter in the slightest.

But again as before, Iroh is a direct take-off of Zuko in every way. They cast Bosco, despite his voice not fitting the character, for no reason other than for fans to go Hey Its That Guy! His significance to the plot is entirely incidental to the (poor) choice for his voice actor.

Okay, so, just because you personally don't like the casting choice, that doesn't make Iroh Pandering To The Base and that doesn't make even mentioning that he's not there strictly for fanservice invalid.

For that matter, casting a descendant of a previous character with the same actor isn't inherently pandering either. It provides a small bit of continuity, but it does not affect the show's direction or quality - except that you don't like the casting choice. That's why it IS relevant to point out that Iroh isn't just stunt casting, of which pandering would qualify - Iroh is a fairly important character to the show's finale.

I agree it's pandering. Look at the page itself, "When the pandering actually does work, it's And the Fandom Rejoiced." What was And The Fandom Rejoiced called before? "Cue Cullen" because of a voice actor reprising a role. And again, Cullen voiced a very important character himself (far more important than Iroh was to T Lo K).

I LIKE the casting choice and I think it fits the definition of Pandering To The Base. I do agree that "General Iroh is this" is wrong. Even the earlier "General Iroh due to sharing a VA with his ancestor is this" is wrong. However, I do believe that "General Iroh sharing his VA with Zuko is this" would be fine. Basically, Iroh himself isn't this, but his VA choice is.

Just sayin'.

Okay, I'm getting a bit confused. Pandering To The Base seems to be "And The Fandom Rejoiced but bad" under that explanation. Or it's "And The Fandom Rejoiced" but without Sugar Wiki.

Regardless, I think context for the entry is important because the character does a bit more than just exist with a previous character's voice actor. Compare it to the Cabbage Corp. gag, which only die-hard fans of the last show are going to get. Having Zuko's voice is unimportant to the casual fan to understand who Iroh is - a bigshot general of the Fire Nation. Having Zuko's voice is a nod to the last show, but not important. It's a bonus to a long-time series fan, but not crucial to the character himself.

The Cabbage Corp CEO screaming "My Cabbage Corp!" is just strange to a casual viewer since that's the first time the ongoing cabbage merchant joke from the last series got a callback in this one.

Again... Iroh is not Pandering To The Base.

The choice of Iroh's VA being the same as Zuko's is Pandering To The Base.

ATFR is a potential reaction to PTTB. My guess is that's why it's Sugar Wiki, since it's an audience reaction trope while PTTB is an active decision by the creators. An interesting distinction, sure, but a distinction nonetheless.

What is the trope?

Strawman Has A Point

I would put it under Hannibal Has A Point.

It wouldn't fall in the article at all because Korra's retort was clearly intended to be a Lame Comeback in the first place and not a serious political statement.

Seconding Rebochan.

Agreed, that's exporting drama. Removed the link to the fanfic.

Hrm, I thought we weren't putting Sue tropes on even the YMMV pages anymore? I haven't taken any off, mind you.

At least for Jerk Sue, there is a notice on the page. I guess there is confusion whether this only applies to the main trope page or all examples in general.

I asked about it on Ask The Tropers and it seems that it's okay to add wicks to example-free tropes. For some reason I assumed if a page had already had an Example Sectionectomy, we weren't supposed to add them to YMMV pages either. Like I said, though, I've not actually taken tropes off based on that. And yea, Jerk Sue doesn't fit.

WHY is Mako excused from any Marty Sue entries but Asami has a Possession Sue one?Doesn't YMMV mean "YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY"?

Please explain, a lot of people are noticing this section's predilection for removing any negative connotations to Mako.

Because every entry was thinly veiled, "MAKO IS RUINING MY SHIP THIS IS WHY HE SUCKS RARARAR"

Also, "your mileage may vary" does not mean "everything goes". More importantly, it does not mean "everything about this item is subjective". Jerk Sue has objective criteria and Mako fails them.

Because every entry was thinly veiled, "MAKO IS RUINING MY SHIP THIS IS WHY HE SUCKS RARARAR"

Oh great, strawmaning the Mako haters again, are we? No, it's not always about Mako/Asami shippers being butthurt over Makorra. It's about people in general seeing cheating on your girlfriend to be disgusting, even morseo if you get away from it scot-free, with literally no consequences or reprecussions for yourself. (Seriously, who's the only one who doesn't seem to be suffering in the preview for Book 2? Mako.)

So to the OP: yes, he does get away with everything. A few What The Hell Hero remarks from Asami is minimal consequences compared to the happy ending he gets while everyone else (especially the girlfriend whom he cheated on) truly suffers. (Asami has lost everything at the end of the season, but this gets no lip service because Korra and Mako's happily ever after is more important.) And the removal of anything that gives negative opinions or casts a negative light on Mako is getting fucking old as well. This is YMMV: not "people's mileage on this character MUST be positive!"

You know, you're not doing anything to help your case when you attack other posters and turn most of your counter-argument into a personal essay about a character you don't like...

...also, not quite sure why this ever came up that Asami is being unfairly maligned on this page. Most of the trope entries about her highlight that she got the short end of the stick. Even her Scrappy entry is sympathetic and paints her as the victim of shippers. Compare Mako's Scrappy entry, which only highlights his negative traits and why they upset people.

No, thats textbook Hate Dumb, try that.

Ok, edit now posted to Hate Dumb to this effect.

First off, having read this entire page, Rebochan has not been uncivil or nasty to anyone; what zie has done is make sure that the tropes on this page are used in the manner for which they were intended.

Secondly, this page is not the We Hate Mako Club. Believe it or not, there actually are people here who do NOT believe that Mako is the Devil incarnate. YMMV and all that. Given the other places I go to discuss this series, the part about him being blasted more than Amon and Tarrlok is absolutely true. As I even mentioned above, the fanbase hates Mako so much that some are harassing his VA, and if this continues,I would not be surprised to see another Mark Hildreth situation on our hands. So, that entire paragraph needs to stay, if only for the people afraid to voice the very unwelcome opinion that Mako is not a complete waste of time and animation.

Agreed with blackflamerose.

I actually just cleaned that up again because I noticed, thanks to it being quoted above, that it was once again twisting some really simple things into being much worse and getting some facts wrong. I tried to take those bits out and simplify it to the real core of the issue - how he handled his love life. Because let's face it, shipper or non, how he handled the Asami/Korra/Mako love triangle is where the controversy comes from.

A lot of people mistake YMMV as the page where they can put their own opinion. But these pages are not supposed to represent either opinion. What they are supposed to do is presenting an issue in a somewhat neutral tone, meaning showing that they exists, while not actually displaying the behavior.

So, whenever you see a comment that is trying to justify or bash any opinion, feel free to rewrite it. Regarding this, I also like to link to Example Indentation In Trope Lists. If you want to expand/clarify an example, don't add another bullet point. Those are for multiple examples of the same trope, not an substitute for paragraphs.

And I don't really see where Rebochan was in any way unfriendly.

Uncivil and nasty? Really? Not only I agree with blackflamerose, but I actually think that YOU are the one who's actually acting that way. Because I see you attempting to shoehorn a character you hate (reasons aside) into more than one bashing category even after others tell you to stop, greatly exaggerating said chara's already present flaws to make him look worse than he truly is, calling other people names when they disagree with you, and totally refusing to see any opinion that isn't similar to your own.

As said already, this isn't the "We Hate Mako" FC. If you and others can't get over how not everyone here hates Mako and will not agree with your tries to make him look like something akin to a Complete Monster, then I believe this just ain't the place for you.

There is a post below by Rebochan in the Romantic Plot Tumor discussion that says "edited for civility". There is a reason Rebochan edited her post for "civilities sake", but I saw it. I didn't appreciate it. Even ccoa called her on on her belligerent, insulting language towards me. The reason you can't see it is because she hid it. In the Creator's Pet discussion, Rebochan posted a passive aggressive response insinuating that I think a Creators Pet is a character I hate that the show's cast doesn't (I said no such thing).

I have yet to insult anyone. I've taken issue with Rebochan insulting me previously.

Just look at how you're treating me right now. I made one suggestion weeks ago that Mako is a Creators Pet in the discussion page. I was wrong about that because it missed one requirement and I dropped it. When other people have tried to add a Creators Pet entry, I've taken it out myself. Yet you are treating me as if I've created an edit war over this, not listening to anyone and vandalizing the page to create a shine towards my dislike of the character. You're all telling me to "Take a chill pill", that I'm mistaking this for a "Hate mako" fan club and putting words into my mouth. I don't think Mako is the Devil Incarnate like you accuse me of saying. I've never called Mako a Complete Monster like you accused me of saying.

Where have I tried to make Mako look like a Complete Monster? I wrote one blog post about where he annoys me, which I linked to. I open the critique prefacing that Mako isn't a complete monster or evil, or a villain.

Where have I said that Mako is the Devil Incarnate? I've called him obnoxious, and that he did some awful, nasty stuff in a lot of episodes.

Where have I shoehorned Mako into more than one blasting category? I made one post in the discussion. Dropped it after ccoa explained how it wasn't character shilling and I have personally gone out of my way to delete it whenever anyone else tries to stick in into the page.

There are plenty of villains who are appreciated for their villainy and the role they play in the story, like Amon is. That's common enough to not make a scrappy receiving more hate unusual. Mako's status as a hero or villain is irrelevant to him being a scrappy. That's what I'm saying. If it was, the trope wouldn't be named after a heroic character. It would be like going into the Berserk YMMV page and make a stipulation on how Puck gets more hate than Griffith and Zodd even though Puck isn't a villain like they are. Yeah, it's true in Mako's case, but so what?

If you're going to argue with me, it would be nice if you actual argued about what I'm saying and yet blackflamerose and Orihime both strawmanned me. Rebochan has strawmanned and insulted me before. I don't appreciate this.

And eX, I'm trying to explain that I found a section of Mako's scrappy section as trying to bash those that think he is the scrappy. I tried to just snip that part out, and Rebochan immediately puts it back in, so I tried to discuss it here. I'm regretting doing so, however.

Also, the reason David Faustino has been getting harassed is because he was asked a jokey question "Who would you date, Asami or Korra" and he answered with “It’s a tough decision. The slut in me wants to be with Asami, but the smart and sensible guy in me should probably go for Korra. But Asami is still really hot.” which didn't go over too well.

;;eyebrow up;; Where, exactly, did I strawman you in particular? All I did was point out the prevailing attitude in the fandom towards Mako, and the atmosphere derived from this attitude. I've had to quit several mainstream fansites for the sake of my blood pressure because the hivemind regarding Mako has gotten so toxic. I did not want to see that happen here. And yes, Mortrialus, I have seen more than one post on these mainstream sites regarding Mako as the Devil incarnate or a canon abuser. Abuse Cycle, anyone?

And also, making a stupid (and quite possibly jokey) comment on Twitter does NOT mean that Faustino deserves what these Mako bashers have been doing. Again, this keeps up, and I would not be surprised to see him swear to never work on another Avatar project again.

"Secondly, this page is not the We Hate Mako Club. Believe it or not, there actually are people here who do NOT believe that Mako is the Devil incarnate. YMMV and all that."

Which was directed at me, in response to my post. It's the first response in this discussion I started. And if other people really hate Mako that much, so what? I didn't post anything in this discussion that implies I think of him that way and its irrelevant and wrong for you to bring up as if I did.

I also didn't say Faustino deserves getting harassed. He made a bad joke that didn't go over well and got backlash for it. That is all I said. You're strawmanning me again.

So for once, how about someone actually talks about why I made this discussion. Should we start going into every YMMV page, and if a character is listed as a scrappy and isn't a villain, make a big stipulation about how they get more criticism than the villains?

Should we go into the Berserk page and point out how it's weird how Puck Gets more hatred from the fans than any of the villains, even though he doesn't eat people and his healing powers have saved the day numerous times?

Should we go into the Scooby Doo YMMV page and point out how Scrappy isn't a villain and never does criminal activity like the various villains of the series?

That Mako gets more hatred than Amon and Tarrlok(Post finale) is irrelevant to his status as the scrappy and it comes off as trying to invalidate and bash those that don't like Mako, but enjoy Amon's for the role he plays in the story.

;;sigh;; Ok,it appears that nothing I could actually say would dissuade you from the idea that I am attacking you in particular. I wasn't. I was pointing out what the attitude surrounding Mako seemed to be from the sites that I frequented until the hate got to be too much. I was also extremely tired of feeling that the minority of the fandom that actually liked him were committing a Fandom Heresy and were being silenced on every other fansite; and I used the example with Faustino to show how the rabid bashers are going way too far. I took a stand, here, and from the comments, it appears I was not the only one to feel that way.

Now, to address your initial complaint. Yes, Mako is The Scrappy, and part of that trope tends to involve ridiculous amounts of hate, even when it is not totally deserved. It also doesn't help that Tarrlok and Amon are prime examples of Draco In Leather Pants, and thus there are a lot of people out there who actually do think that Mako is worse than the other two. Acknowledging this is not bashing or invalidating those who don't like Mako, that's pointing out a case of Ron The Death Eater; heck, the Mako haters are the majority of the fanbase. However, the parts of the fanbase who disagree need to have a place where their opinion is respected, too, and at the time of my initial comment, it seemed that this page was going the way of all the others.

I don't know about the others who commented on this thread, but that's how I saw it. You are perfectly within your rights to disagree with me, and I hope this helped.

"Ok,it appears that nothing I could actually say would dissuade you from the idea that I am attacking you in particular."

Probably not because you did attack me, you strawmanned me, you tried to dereail the discussion with you "taking a stand" and now that I called you out on it you're weaseling out of it. If you weren't aiming that at me, why did you post this in a reply to my discussion? Oh because you were reacting to people on other sites you visit, not me. Right....

Every time I've voice my opinion in this page, whether it's the fact that I think Makorra is a case of Strangled By The Red String, or that Mako might qualify as a Creators Pet and now this topic I've gotten shit on, insulted, and ridiculed. I'm fucking sick of it.

Moving on, Mako is already listed under Ron The Death Eater and Amon and Tarrlok are listed under Draco In Leather Pants. That Mako is defended as a case of Ron The Death Eater in his scrappy article is irrelevant. It would be like pointing out how Mako is hated by a lot of nonshippers like myself in the Die For Our Ship article. It's irrelevant.

//Every time I've voice my opinion in this page, whether it's the fact that I think Makorra is a case of Strangled By The Red String, or that Mako might qualify as a Creators Pet and now this topic I've gotten shit on, insulted, and ridiculed. I'm fucking sick of it. //

Maybe that's because of how you have been pushy, rude, and now passive-aggressive and trying to play the victim card? Every time others told you that no, Mako isn't as bad as you tied to make us believe he is, you moaned and threw tantrums and couldn't accept an opinion different from yours. Even when offered proof of such claims, you still complained and acted like a child. And now you try to paint yourself as a poor little victim who's so oppressed and insulted *when you have said/done/etc. questionable things too*.

I don't claim that I'm flawless and always right, in fact I *have* commited mistakes here and in other places, but your aggressive attitude and now your "woe is me I'm the victim in this" parade come off as extemely annoying. I've seen such things happen in several fandoms when people who bash pairings/characters/etc. find out that not everyone shares their opinion, so I'm not exactly impressed either.

We're not bad persons for refusing to take character/shipping bashing and point it out, or... something like that. And no, you're not some poor little martyr who gets insulted for having a different opinion either.

<Mod Hat On>

This is a discussion page relating to the YMMV items about The Legend Of Korra. It is not a discussion on individual editors and their behaviour.

Stop shifting the conversation to other editors one way or another, or you will be suspended.

That goes for all of you.

<Mod Hat Off>

If we can get back to the matter at hand?

I don't think the reasoning for leaving that portion in is very sound. It boils down to: You're all tired of people hating Mako (You're certainly not alone on that front), you don't want to see this page become a place of hate (understandable and respectable), so you're reminding the Mako supporters that they don't have to be scared (what?) to voice their opinions. (I was under the impression that this place wasn't for voicing opinions, but reporting tropes)

And what of it? Is there really that much to fear that passersby will have their judgment clouded because of a few trope entries? Don't whitewash Mako because of that. He's listed as the Scrappy and as Ron The Death Eater. The denunciation of Mako haters is kind of already there in RTDE- it implies that fans demonize Mako further than he deserves to be. So, you already have a trope defending him. Why try to 'anesthetize' the trope that doesn't imply Mako's treatment by the fans is harsh?

What that says to me is that, despite the fans' reactions to Mako already qualify him as a Scrappy, and the trope's requisites being filled, the entry must be presented in a way to remind people that Mako still doesn't deserve to be a scrappy. Fair enough. Maybe he doesn't deserve it, but he is.

If the phrase should be left in, it should be reworded, to reflect the situation, not the fans' perceptions. Don't imply it's the crazy fans who give more hate to Mako, (who is one of the heroes whose expectations of heroics weren't met to many) than to the actual villains. Rather state that Mako's status as scrappy earns him more hatred than one might expect from say, the villains in the series.

I know these sound pretty much the same, but it's the semantics. Instead of insulting people who have a right to dislike the character, point out the fact that Mako gets more hate than Amon and Tarrlok (which he definitely does), without bringing them into it.

Do what Mako does. Use the passive voice. Don't point out the subject of the sentence. Leave it ambiguous. Then you can present the factual situation, without the implied accusation of rabid Mako haters being unrealistic who should just shut up and love Mako like the rest of us 'normal' people already.

Also, I wouldn't link it to Ron The Death Eater. He's already listed under that trope. No need for redundancy. Also it's a contributing factor to why the OP found this insulting.

The point of the Scrappy isn't to point out that the character in question's perception as such is fair or unfair, simply that it is. If you want to point out the truthful situation of Mako's hate levels climbing higher than the villain's (which happens a lot in shows- villains tend to be very well received by fans) it can be done without implying that this is wrong or irrational. We have RTDE for that.

I'm...not quite sure what you're asking. It's impossible to argue that Mako is not fulfilling The Scrappy trope, so nobody is suggesting that be removed. I'm trying to parse your post, but it seems you don't have a problem with the phrase in question.

For the sake of reference (and because this whole thing may need a clean up), here is the full text of this page's The Scrappy entry (without spoiler tags):

The Scrappy:

• Asami to an extent, due to Die for Our Ship and Ron the Death Eater reasons. Though for many, she was Rescued from the Scrappy Heap after she refused to side with her father.
• Mako, for the portion who do not approve of his behavior and his lack of tact handling his romantic situation with Korra and Asami, as well as those who disapprove of his perceived lack of personality (beyond romantic tactlessness). It's gotten as far as him being blasted more than the actual antagonists and there's been daunting wishes for him to die, be written out, or remain alone for life as an outcome. Interestingly (and perhaps unsurprisingly), as Asami's popularity went up, his went down. His Scrappy status skyrocketed after the finale when he breaks free of Amon's bloodbending (the first one to do so) and finally hooked up with Korra when, for some, it wasn't actually clear that he'd broken up with Asami. While not everyone sees him this way, to say the man is polarizing is an understatement.
  • The anger did not cease when it was learned that he's going to be on the police force in Book Two, as opposed to Bolin, who was a popular metalbender police candidate for fans.

As I see it, the entry isn't taking a side, but it is documenting the reactions and why they have gotten to that level.

Actually, the Asami entry seems to have nothing to with her as an actual Scrappy and entirely exists to be a slam to a group of people on tumblr.

I see your point. And yes we could clean it up. We should clean it up. But I don't think I'm capable of doing such.

Ah the Asami entry. Forgot about that. They use the exact same reasoning. I still don't think that such reasoning should be used. We should list why people thought she was a scrappy, and why some still do.

However, the more I look at it, the more I'm starting to agree with you. I'd be fine if it was left in. Though the word blasted could be changed to something... softer? I don't know. I don't think people having a problem with him more than they do the villains makes him RTDE. I thought that it has more to do with fanfiction...

But! I definitely know that many people demonize far past his crimes in this fandom, so that certainly counts. Maybe the part about being hated more than the actual villains should be taken out. I mean, they're great villains. People aren't really going to hate on them, especially not as much as a protagonist who did a lot of questionable things with little comeuppance for it.

Though then there is the argument that Mako's thought to be a horrible, evil person, and Noatak and Tarrlok gain sympathy for their tragic past which was actually shown... So the DILP compared to the RTDE has some creibility to it. Why do people put pants on Amon and Tarrlok, but horns on Mako?

I guess I'd still go with the theory, the villains turned out surprisingly sympathetic and Mako was attempted to look sympathetic and only got more derailed as time went on...

But they aren't relevant to Mako's status as RTDE, or really as the Scrappy. I see that whoever first put that in was making a point, about the near ridiculous levels of hate, but... it doesn't seem... whatever. Do what you think is best. As you can tell I don't quite have my thoughts sorted out.

Or, due to just how inflammatory the whole deal is, we should probably just keep them as short and objective as possible. Like just list their names, kind of short.

On a random aside, where's the love for Mako neutrals? Can't we have criticisms for him and still tolerate him? What about a middle ground?

As I've said before, Mako's satus as a scrappy is 100% irrelevant to his position as a main character or antagonist. That the article goes out of it's way to point out just "how unfair it is that he is hated more than the antagonists" shows bias because being a Scappy has literally nothing, and I repeat NOTHING to do with being an antagonist. That the section goes out of it's way to say "I'ts so unfair that Mako is criticized more than the Antagonists of the series" is just pure 100% bias.

I'm fairly certain it does neither. In fact, whereas Asami's entry seems to exist purely so readers can take pity on Asami for getting attacked by shippers, Mako's is far more detailed. And the point of the statement is to note that Mako, who's greatest crime, I may remind you, is not handling a love triangle well, has his actions treated as if they are worse than terrorism and cultural (and potentially actual) genocide.

I'm going to try to clarify the Mako hate better without the rudeness distracting from the discussion.

Yeah Amon and Tarrlok have done much worse, but in their case, the narrative treats their actions as wrong. And while Mako's actions aren't on par it doesn't invalidate it as being harmless (Really, cheating on someone while not on the level of genocide or terrorism is hardly as tame as say chewing gum in a classroom or calling someone a childish name like poopyhead). I mean Asami did have to deal with another man she loved who was keeping the truth from her.

But not only do Amon and Tarrlok get called out on their actions, they receive consequences for them. Amon loses support of the Equalists and is killed by his brother, while Tarrlok loses his bending as well as his power & respect in Republic City. Heck even Tahno who's biggest offense was merely cheating in a competition was met with humilation of being publicly debended by Amon.

Mako on the other hand receives no consequences for his actions. I'm not talking death or isolation, but his relationship with several members of the cast should have been seriously strained because of the lack of sensitivity. Maybe have Bolin displaying some disappointment in his brother, and Asami who granted will still work with him for the greater good shouldn't have been so forgiving (I mean, taking the higher road doesn't mean having to be pals with someone just because you're going to be respectful towards them).

Also, just for a bonus comparison. In ATLA: The Desert, Aang gets out of control with rage after Appa was stolen. So much so that Katara has to calm him down. Now when Mako is about to kill an Equalist out of rage, neither Tenzin, Lin, Bolin or Asami try to even talk him out of it or calming him down. Now why is Aang called out on his rage, but Mako's is overlooked?

Sigh, when did I miss this gem?

"Yeah Amon and Tarrlok have done much worse, but in their case, the narrative treats their actions as wrong."

Mako's actions are not treated as right, but they do have a greater degree of moral greyness. And we do see how mistakes he makes hurt people.

"And while Mako's actions aren't on par it doesn't invalidate it as being harmless"

Which no one has argued.

"(Really, cheating on someone while not on the level of genocide or terrorism is hardly as tame as say chewing gum in a classroom or calling someone a childish name like poopyhead). I mean Asami did have to deal with another man she loved who was keeping the truth from her."

You make it sound like he was actively cheating on her, which he didn't do in the first place. He broke up with Asami, then he confessed to Korra. Unless Korra forcing herself on him is now his fault. I think we have a trope for that.

"But not only do Amon and Tarrlok get called out on their actions, they receive consequences for them."

Like Mako does when his legitimately upset girlfriend gives him a well-deserved ultimatum in private?

"Amon loses support of the Equalists and is killed by his brother,"

So the punishment fits the crime then.

"while Tarrlok loses his bending as well as his power & respect in Republic City."

Again, the punishment fits the crime.

"Heck even Tahno who's biggest offense was merely cheating in a competition was met with humilation of being publicly debended by Amon."

And that was considered a bad thing by the plot and he was shown truly suffering from something well out of proportion to his crime.

"Mako on the other hand receives no consequences for his actions."

...except for all the problems it causes in his relationship with Asami? Which is, by the way, the correct punishment?

"I'm not talking death or isolation, but his relationship with several members of the cast should have been seriously strained because of the lack of sensitivity."

Why would anyone have a problem with him besides Asami? He and Bolin had their falling out, but if two people who literally relied on each other to survive for the majority of their lives completely and utterly fell out over a girl, that would be highly unrealistic. Also, it would make Bolin a lot more petty considering that he'd only gone on one date with Korra AND Mako wasn't the one that tried to kiss her (though Bolin probably didn't see that part since he thinks Mako initiated the kiss.)

"Maybe have Bolin displaying some disappointment in his brother,"

Like when they had a fight that almost cost them something they both loved? I mean, what more do you want?

"and Asami who granted will still work with him for the greater good shouldn't have been so forgiving (I mean, taking the higher road doesn't mean having to be pals with someone just because you're going to be respectful towards them)."

Wait, since when are they pals? They broke up and they're not seeing each other anymore. Which is perfectly valid as Mako feels at the least awkwardness and at the worst serious guilt, and why in the world would Asami willingly spend time with her now-ex boyfriend once the Equalists were defeated?

"Also, just for a bonus comparison. In ATLA: The Desert, Aang gets out of control with rage after Appa was stolen. So much so that Katara has to calm him down."

I think the problem was that Aang had turned into a living god of rage and lost control of his powers. Not that he was upset.

"Now when Mako is about to kill an Equalist out of rage, neither Tenzin, Lin, Bolin or Asami try to even talk him out of it or calming him down."

Because he didn't try to kill him and people using their powers to threaten people on this show all the time. I could give you a laundry list of potentially fatal applications of bending used by the heroes that nobody blinks an eye at. I have no idea why the fuck mako brigade focuses on that one scene aside from needing more reasons to hate Mako and only having so many scenes where he's on camera.

"Now why is Aang called out on his rage, but Mako's is overlooked?"

Because they have nothing in common?

It's the hazard of being a controversial character - people start trope fishing for tropes that either A) continue their hate-on or B) express hate for the haters.

On the upside, the page itself has been mostly clear of it and this IS the part of the site to talk about whether, say, Mako is a Creators Pet, without causing trouble with the page itself until the issue is resolved.

That is some creepy dedication to character bashing, and yet it's not the only one I've seen here. Characters like Nozomi Kujo from Bleach and Lana Lang from Small Ville have ben listed under all of the Mary Sue tropes due to how much the fandom hates them with or without reason, and I and others often have to clean up Bleach related pages/sections due to all of the Orihime hatred. :/a

Don't be surprised.

I think people are either seeing something in Mako's behavior or Mako himself, and then kind of slightly sort of remember a trope to go along with it, but don't actually know its very precise and exact prerequisites to justify using it.

For example, A lot of people probably think Mako is a creator's pet, and it certainly looks like it at times. But technically, as we've all come to an agreement on, he isn't. So we can't make exceptions just because a lot of people see something that doesn't have its own trope. So they try to fit a similar trope onto it, and it all just gets ugly. Because then they start attacking each other... and then the flame wars begin.

TV Tropes fights in a nutshell. Mako could be replaced with a lot of other characters in other shows and the same thing will play out.

A lot of them just didn't fit the trope, weren't YMMV's, or were some form of shoehorning or another, as far as I can tell.

Two reasons:

One, it's because it's a popular show that encourages a lot of people to trope it, but unfortunately many editors don't always have a good grasp of what the wiki is for, what goes where, or what constitutes a good example. Given that it's popular, it's no surprise that it's garnered several Wiki Curators who watchlist the page and are alert to misuse.

And there's also unfortunately some elements of a warring fandom at work here. There are a lot of sides who all believe their opinion is right, and it's spilling over into the pages, especially the YMMV page.

The vast majority of my deletions are non-YMMV tropes getting put here either by accident or design. Conversely, I've only seen one YMMV pop up on the main page and need to get moved. Odd trend.

I don't see how he cockblocked anyone. This is a kids show. Only serious couples would even hint at having sex, like Sokka and Suki in the first series. Yes, at that time, he had feelings for Korra and impulsively acted on them and kissed her but he didn't think anything of it, he was with Asami and loved her. Korra and Bolin both recognized they were not couple material and better as friends.

As for being rude to Korra, the man she just accused was a generous man who helped them by sponsoring their team when they needed the money, gave him a home when his was lost, and lack any concrete evidence besides overhearing part of a conversation which had a perfectly innocent reason for it.

By the time Korra was kidnapped by Tarlock, Mako's feelings had grown from infatuation to genuine love but he either didn't realize this development this as, as Korra pointed out, Asami needed him more at this time and he accepted that.

When Korra was gone, he probably saw nothing wrong with his actions as he would inwardly justify it as "She's the Avatar. She's a good friend. I don't want to see her hurt or debended."

When confronted by the kiss, he hadn't realized just how badly he was fawning over Korra, he couldn't see how deeply he loved her and so had trouble accepting he was in the wrong. He's a teenager who lost two other people he loved and so probably wanted to not lose anymore close friends, so he hoped by ignoring his previous actions he could keep both Korra and Asami close to him.

In the end, when he said goodbye to Asami, he did apologize to her for causing so many problems. He accepted responsibility for his emotional shortcomings and being unclear about his change in feelings. It happens in real life too. And so Asami and he parted ways, which Asami accepted and agreed that they could still be friends. Her lack of violent reaction but somber acceptance shows this to me.

So he could be Unintentionally Unsympathetic if one doesn't look beyond the base facts.

I didn't mean cock-block in the worst meaning of the word. I meant that he told Bolin to not date a teammate, and then he becomes a hypocrite when he started pursuing Korra while still dating Asami. And you shouldn't belittle what Mako did. When Korra accused Hiroshi of being an Equalist, what did Mako say? Did he say that Hiroshi is a kind man who sponsored their team when they had no money and let them stay at his house? No. He accused Korra of being jealous of him and Asami. And no he didn't realize how badly he was treating Asami, and that's the problem. He was insensitive to her at best and outright cheating on her at worse. We're still supposed to give him a round of applause for kissing Korra at the end.

He told Bolin to not date Korra because one he guessed, and correctly, Korra didn't see him as a possible romance but just a good friend and two dating on the same team when in a high stakes tournament could lead to troubles if a bad break-up happens, which you could say was well-said as Bolin's break down after seeing the kiss followed by the whole team's bad performance in that match nearly cost them the tournament.

His pursuing Korra was under different circumstances. His natural feelings building up made him a foolish teenager for not talking about his feelings to anyone. I'm not belittling, I thinking of the actions in another matter. People have a hard time seeing what they're doing and just who they are becoming (Tarlock and his path for example). Mako is not omniscient, he was being driven by his emotions, his passion, and his pain. He lost his parents in a tragic ordeal and I don't think he wanted to entertain the idea of losing another close friend. If it was Bolin or Asami kidnapped, he would have the same focus and drive to save them and ensure they were all right.

Mako was there for Asami after her father was outed.

As for calling Korra jealous, again he is still a young man who is a teenager. Many don't think things through, many act first then think. Calling Hiroshi an Equalist would akin to calling a white man a KKK member, and thus by extension his daughter must be involved because how could she not know, so by extension Korra was calling Asami an Equalist sympathizer (granted in Asami's case she doesn't) but it is still a serious claim and quite hurtful if Korra wasn't wrong.

I've heard a lot of people use his age as an excuse for his piss poor behavior. He still made terrible decisions and strung Asami along when he should have ended the relationship a long time ago. And he only went to Asami because Korra told him. You can look at all of the people who hate Mako when he clearly wasn't supposed to be hated. I think that qualifies for Unintentionally Unsympathetic. Even if you don't think that Mako was acting like a douchebag, you can't deny that his behavior and character development infuriated many fans.

Hmm. Fair enough. I can agree to Unintentionally Unsympathetic

Unintentionally Unsympathetic is not simply a character that the writers hope the audience likes and they don't. It's meant to highlight a character the writers pile "sympathetic" flaws on that don't come off sympathetically. Read the trope description first.

Forget his relationship problem, has Mako been given any traits like that? I can't support the trope addition if it's not meeting the actual trope description. What you've described is in line with his entry on The Scrappy and would simply be duplicating it.

Agreed, but as it was, the example description was about the show itself, not about what some fans attribute to it. The irony of the whole thing is of course that it actually showcases the exact behavior the trope is about.

Feel free to re-add it with a correct description.

I cut the examples again. To repeat what I said in the edit reason,, the trope is not about showing that a show is too mature for its target audience, it's about the Periphery Demographic trying to argue that a show is actually aimed at them.

So please, stop listing dark moments in the show as if that would be proof of some kind that the show is not for kids. It was created as a cartoon for children and everything in it had to go past the the network censors. That the show manages to be as grim as it is and still be suitable for kids is a credit to the writers, but the show is neither better nor worse for it.

The problem is that a Creators Pet requires the writers to know that a character is hated, and yet continue to push that character without changing him or her.

In this case, the series has not gone on long enough for the writers to react to the fandom hatred and adjust to it. Assuming they'll need to at all, we still haven't finished the current season.

Additionally, your last point is very iffy. The only character who sees what he's doing and is hurt by it is Asami, and she is certainly not villainized for it in-universe.

All around, way too soon to be adding this.

I don't see how that last point applies at all. "Multiple episodes of just awful, awful behavior to everyone around him including his brother"?

Seriously, what the hell. I don't see where you're getting that at all.

@Mr Death

My blog post I linked.

That blog post has horrendous colors and I'm not going to strain my eyes to read it.

Make your points here. Frankly, I've watched every episode up to now, and I honestly don't see him acting the way you think he does.

There. White on black. Fixed.

As I said: Make your points here and make them concisely if at all possible. A multi-page blog post about how much you don't like a character is simply not something I care enough about to read.

If you want to make a case that something should be on a TV Tropes page, here is the place to make your case.

I'd also like to add that Creators Pet does not exist simply to complain that a character you don't like isn't also hated by the rest of the show's cast.

The reason that post is so long is because he does something incredibly awful in almost every episode since 5. It's that long because it literally takes that long just to list most of it.

And Rebochan, I'm aware of what a Creators Pet it. I listed how I think he fits the requirements in the first post of the initial discussion. You've been called out multiple times for being extremely confrontation or passive aggressive. Should should listen to the mods and stop.

"Didn't agree with me" =! Being confrontational.

The "writer" you mentioned in your "typical behavior" comment is not a writer, he's the martial arts co-ordinator for the show and has zero input on anything related to the story or its characters. And he flat out stated that he did not say Mako's behavior was okay or make excuses for him. But because I don't like to leave things out of context, here's the actual blog. So there's a massive factual error in your argument right there.

Mako being the only person carrying Korra to Oogi is a "big scene for no reason?" Up to that point in the episode, he'd expressed the most concern for Korra's safety, and it would be strange if he wasn't present at all, let alone if he hadn't had a big reaction. And you're also ignoring that Tenzin and Lin had the first reactions, as they too were the most relevant to that episode's plot.

I'm not even going to get into what you justify as "character shilling". That would require other characters telling other people for the viewer's benefit how amazing a character is. So far, we've had people telling him to his face that he's got problems, and each time that character was shown to be in the right. In particular, Asami chewing him out about his feelings for Korra was presented sympathetically. I don't even know where you're getting the idea that Asami was being treated as a villain.

Thing is, the creators are not shilling him to the heavens and beyond as the best and most fantastic character ever (some of the fans might, but that's a whole 'nother thing). Note that the people in-universe who side-eye him pretty hard for his choices are not portrayed as at all unreasonable for it. The Powers That Be are not telling us where our sympathies should lie, and they do not make him steal the spotlight from the actual hero of the story. So no, he does not qualify, in my opinion.

And if being a pretty typical teenager (with all that implies in the way of glitchy sensitivity and emotional maturity) is being "incredibly awful", then much of humanity is in deep, deep trouble. There are far worse people on the show. Hyperbole does not a point make.

ETA: Er...what Rebochan said in the post above.

The reason that post is so long is because he does something incredibly awful in almost every episode since 5. It's that long because it literally takes that long just to list most of it.

Hilarious, then, that I've watched every single episode and I can't think of a single "incredibly awful" thing he's done. But I think it's obvious what's going on here, and it's got nothing to do with actual tropes.

This is right up there with the guy who kept trying to justify war crimes to make Katara look bad, and the nuts who put together hours-long videos to say that Katara/Zuko was ~meant to be~.

I kind of expect this to continue for awhile, which is why I assume a mod is poking in and out of the page more frequently.

I have all the Korra pages watchlisted, partly because I'm a fan, and partly because it's very popular, which spells messes. Lots and lots of messes.

I guess Character Shilling isn't the right term, but he gets away with a lot of various awful behavior, usually without any criticism from other characters and any real punishment. Two examples: In Episode 7, Mako earnestly thinks so little of Korra, that she is so petty, cruel and jealous, that he accuses her of attempting to frame an innocent man of being a part of a violent terrorist organization. I wouldn't forgive Mako if he said that to me. I don't know anyone that would. At the end of the episode, he gives an apology "Sorry, but Hiroshi Sato being an Equalist is a hard sell." You'd think he'd apologize for the extremely vicious insult he threw at her, but he doesn't and everything is fine between them from a friendship standpoint.

Episode 9 has him threatening to burn an Equalist's face off to get information on a kidnapped Korra. No one bats and eye at this. You'd think Tenzin would since he's part of a culture that thinks life is so sacred they're all vegetarians.

I suppose every episode is hyperbole, but he does some pretty nasty things in 5, 7, 9 and 10.

I'm not saying from a moralistic perspective he is "teh worst evah". I even say that in the first paragraph of that post. And I'm a nonshipper. Never shipped never have. I don't appreciate you strawmanning me like that.

I'm just saying he is currently The Scrappy for me and a lot of other people. His name gives off serious Creators Pet warning signals, his status as Karma Houdini (Which I admittedly confused for Character Shilling) in regards to his friendships and that there are scene where he is given a bigger role than he should have (The end of episode 9) all point towards him being a Creators Pet to me. I do agree with ccoa that its too early to be adding it now.

Mako hasn't gotten away with anything. His behavior has been repeatedly called out by non-villainous characters, something that's been pointed out in this very discussion. Even you admitted that he actually apologized to Korra over his behavior with Hitoshi Sato, which already means the character is admitting fault - something a Karma Houdini never does. And I LOVE how you act as if that was entirely unjustifiable, as if Sato was some clearly mustache twirling villain and not someone who had everyone in the damn city believing he was a kind and benevolent corporate benefactor. Gosh, it's not like he gave Mako a generous corporate sponsorship that allowed him to continue to support his brother, or opened his home to the both of them when they were turned out into the street. No, Mako should have believed Korra when she had no evidence. And especially when she'd already once tried to sabotage his relationship with Asami by forcing herself onto him (yea, that still happened, by the way.)

As for the "threat"? People do it on this show all the time. Including good guys. Including KORRA. You're also making "Mako held up a fire ball while pinning a guy to the wall and yelling at him" sound much more violent and sadistic.

I did not call you a shipper, and once again, your "arguments" are full of factual errors. I did skim your "article" and it's more of taking every single scene with Mako and doing some incredible gymnastics to make him out to be the villain. I mean, seriously, you compared tending to a sick comrade to breaking into a teenage girl's home while she sleeps and staring at her for sexual pleasure. You're even trying to use his name as an excuse to slap a Creators Pet label on him.

Take a chill pill and stop trying to fish for tropes to slap on this guy.

Okay, let's just stop this now. You admitted that what is going is not Character Shilling. Without Character Shilling, the character cannot be a Creators Pet.

Therefore, the debate about that trope is effectively over, and we can agree to disagree about what an awful person Mako is.

Agrreing with Rebochan here. Mako does NOT get away with shit - all of his actions have had bad consequences not just for others, but for him. Neither Korra nor Asami are happy with his behavior in the love triangle (specially Asami, and we're supposed to empathize with *her* in the argument), the whole Korra kiss caused him problems with Bolin too, trusting Hiroshi blew up badly, etc. Also, the narrative doesn't support him either: i.e, as said already, Asami is the one shown in the right in their argument, and the POV makes it VERY clear. Mako is NOT supposed to be seen as in the right, and the fact that not everyone wants to bash his face in-story doesn't mean they approve of his behavior.

This is also an example of how the concept of Creators Pet is losing its meaning, like Canon Sue and Mary Sue before; it's now so used to bring down characters that people don't like, that the claim "X and Y is a Creators Pet" now equals to "I hate X and Y and I will call them Creators Pet to make everyone hate them the way I do!", Character that YOU (general you) don't like =/= automatic Creators Pet, and attempting to use the Creators Pet lable to force the hate of them down people's throats is NOT the way to go.

PS: Using one's own posts as proof of such claims is a double-edged sword. It can give the impression that the author is attempting to force their POV's via presenting their own opinions as facts/proofs.

PS 2: My apologies to Ccoa, I was typing up this reply when you posted the notice and didn't see it 'til I had pressed "save". :(

I'd actually agree with OP here. Mako did get away with a lot. He even ends up with Korra after constantly attempting to cheat on Asami. But it was ok because Korra is happy. This is presented as a happy ending, despite the fact that Mako never took responsibility for kissing Korra, and even blamed his brother (yeah, way to go bro). Asami is the only person to call him out. Even Bolin easily forgives him. There is definitely evidence towards Mako being a Creators Pet.

Still doesn't fulfill the requirements for Creators Pet. In order to qualify, a character must hit all of these points:

• Be The Scrappy
• Loved by the writers
• Have Character Focus
• Be the recipient of Character Shilling

He doesn't hit the last one, and the third is debatable.

"Constantly attempting to cheat on Asami"? Citation Needed.

I'd need to rewatch the show again, but there was a scene (Skeletons in the Closet, if I remember) where Korra was sitting by Naga, and Mako comes up to her. He cuddles right up with her and moves in for a kiss, but Korra turns away. Yeah, he wasn't cheating on her every second, but he certainly made moves on Korra while still with (and neglecting) Asami. Do we have any word from Bryke on what they think of Mako? I don't think I've heard where they stand on his behavior.

And thinking about it, Mako being a loving brother comes across more as an Informed Attribute. But we'd have to wait for the second season to see if he really is a Creators Pet. Ok. He's not officially a Creators Pet. Yet.

An informed attribute? When he was so worried about Bolin when he was kidnapped? When he takes care of his brother like a parent? When he hugs his brother and says "love ya, bro"?

I don't want to be mean, but I think you're viewing the character through a very warped lens. I won't claim he's a saint (I'm pretty "meh" on Mako), but let's not distort what's there.

So, not "constantly," at all. Maybe once (the kiss in Spirit of Competition was initiated by Korra, remember). And I think you're mischaracterizing that scene in the finale. Mako doesn't "cuddle right up with her", he sits next to her. He looks at her for a few heartbeats before she gets up. You're making it sound like he was a lot more forward than he actually was.

"Whether it be an attempt to make us like the character, a way of quickly establishing that someone new is a badass a level above anything we've seen before or whatever the case may be, other people will be extremely impressed with this person and let we the viewers know about it."

"You're the first person to ever get the better of me. I'm impressed. It'll almost be a shame to take the bending of one so talented... almost."

Wasn't Amon's open praise of Mako suspiciously unnecessary? Mako seemingly breaks the 'rules' of lightening bending, both by shooting lightening from simply his fingers without any movement, and with a look of rage on his face, contradicting Iroh's talk of needing inner calm and peace to successfully separate the energy. Granted, he's not extremely impressed, but he's Amon, he's not exactly a fount of emotion.

That scene, and that dialogue seems like nothing more than an excuse to make Mako look cool, because, hey! Even the big bad is impressed with him! Mako's so badass guys! Seems like they're going out of their way to 'reward' Mako in the finale, i.e. give him screen time that is dedicated to upping his baddassery. The lightening bending isn't what tips it in my opinion, but Amon's praise for him.

This sounds like character shilling to me... thoughts? I don't hate Mako, so no need to get on my case for that, but the creators kind of know that Mako's hated- as to why they so rudely dismissed people with legitimate problems with his character as mere 'angry fangirls', and why Mako became more the star as the series went on. (rescuing Korra, helping the herione take down the bad guy, doing more damage to said bad guy then the main character until she unlocks her trump card, and then expressing his love for the herione, and then getting it returned. It seems as if the series tries to make Mako's accomplishments more impressive than even Korra's) Combine that with the fact that a lot of people do hate Mako... and I can see him being a creator's pet. I don't think we should discount it. I understand that creator's pet carries... implications, and it would be a controversial move, so we don't have to add it.

...So one person complementing him once on something legitimately impressive is shilling?

No, no it's not.

And as for "breaking the rules," you do recall Azula shooting lightning when she was batshit fucking crazy, right?

When she was super powered by a comet. And, Azula's a sociopath, or even a psychopath. She has a warped psyche so we can't claim to know what was going on in her head during her duel.

And if that one person goes out of their way in the narrative to compliment someone when they normally wouldn't over a skill that seems shoehorned in that breaks the Magic A is Magic A rule... then it seems like shilling to me.

It seems out of character for Amon to offer such praises. It feels more like a tool, to manipulate the audience's perception of Mako...

Having more power wouldn't make generating lightning any easier if it's based around being at "peace." And was Ozai "peaceful" when he shot lightning at Aang or his son? It's not about just whether Mako is angry at the time or not—it's more about not being conflicted within, and in that moment? No, Mako wasn't conflicted.

You're acting like Amon was bowing down at his feet or something. He took a grand total of two seconds to say, "That was a pretty good shot." That's it. He acknowledges that he was hit, that's not "shilling.".

Apparently the only way Mako isn't a Creators Pet is if he just sits there and does nothing impressive, nobody comments on it, and he gets dumped by everyone, right? Because seriously, all of this about him being a Creators Pet just appears to be completely irrational bullshit, as if someone decided, "Mako is bad, therefore everything he does, happens to him, or is said about him has to be something bad," and it's just tiring.

Was Katara a Creators Pet because she mastered bloodbending? Or because she took down Azula and Zuko was thanking her for saving his life? Or because she displayed extraordinary skill in Waterbending and ended up hooking up with Aang?

No, no, wait, Aang's clearly a Creators Pet—he's the Avatar, so he gets all kinds of cool powers, we're constantly told how powerful he is, the whole plot revolves around him, and he gets to save the day all by himself.

This is, not to put too fine a point on it, frigging ridiculous.

I don't think you know what a sociopath is. Ozai and Azula have inner calm and peace, because they have no shame, nor doubt, nor angst. They're perfectly composed- they literally have themselves convinced that they were in the right in every way, and could do not wrong. Their whole mindset is shifted from reality. Ergo, they have inner 'peace'.

Mako? He's a normal guy. And yet he's able to shoot an extremely powerful stream of lightening sustained for several seconds with just his fingertips, all while he's clearly enraged?

No, it seemed like a stunt for drama and coolness points.

And, um, 1) I'm not even saying he's a creator's pet, but that he could be. And 2) Katara and Aang don't count. They're allowed to have cool powers, because Aang's a god in human form, and Katara, not only was a prodigy, but worked really hard to achieve the level she was at. Not saying that Mako isn't a prodigy, but we're not shown this. With Katara, we're shown, from the beginning.

Aang and Katara are based around showing, not telling. No one ever tells Katara that she's the greatest thing ever.

Pakku admits that he was impressed, but she still lost their duel, and was still sloppy- but it was her passion and drive that impressed him, and convinced him to teach her. Aang compliments her a lot because he's her friend, and he likes her, and she deserves it. Hama compliments her because she's also a master, and was teaching her. All those situations made sense.

Mako's situation was based around telling. Amon has to literally tell the audience that he's impressed, so that the audience would be impressed too? You don't need Amon to say it- all feelings toward 'breaking any rules' aside, it was still pretty heroic and impressive in of itself, but Amon's there being all "See audience? Did you see? Mako's so cool!"

The first series gave its characters amazing powers and skills, but didn't shove them down our throats.

But it's also in this series. Asami's a kickass driver, and an awesome fighter. No one ever goes out of their way to tell her that. No one ever goes out of their way to tell Korra that she's an awesome bender, save to comfort her. The wiki itself says that Bolin exhibits a rare skill for earthbending (not touching the ground) with relative ease... and this is never even addressed in the slightest in the series. Everyone else uses their powers and skills naturally, and anytime said skills might be brought up by another character, the dialogue is natural and sensical. It's not, "Just so the audience knows, even though they just saw it for themselves and have probably already made this conclusion, you're really impressive. Even I the main villain said so, so it has to be true."

The point is that the creators made a deliberate choice to vocally praise Mako in their dialogue. Amon's dialogue just didn't make sense, which pinged my suedar (as well as many other people's). I was suspicious of the writer's intentions with those lines. And this was immediately after watching that, on the day it aired.

Actually, Amon saying "That was a good shot" Would be a much better alternative. To say, "You're the first person to ever overpower me." Seems like it's reaching. It's like a self-insert sue goes and, not only beats the bad guy who never before could be beaten, but said bad guy then openly reminds us of this.

So, why give this special mention toward Mako? I can see no other reason than Mako is the creator's favorite. And no, I actually don't think he can be called a creator's pet- yet, hence why I said could be. Because this was already finished by the time book one came out, and people actually started getting butthurt over Mako.

However, there's evidence of giving special treatment to Mako, which if it's not already could become shilling, the creator's very much know of all that hate Mako's getting, and seem like they're going to ignore all of it and continue to keep handing things to Mako's character. So... I'm wondering if he won't become one by book two.

You know, I had a longer reply to this, but honestly, all that needs to be said is you're overreacting to a two-second line and really reaching to try and make an argument that's already been shot down. The rest isn't even worth responding to, because the very arguments you're using show you've made up your mind and no amount of argument or fact is going to change it. Please, cut it out.

Mr. Death, stop strawmanning other people's arguments. Yes, it's irritating that people have let their hatred of the character flow over into our pages, but the rules of logic still apply.

If we're not arguing that the trope fits, why are we even still arguing here? I suggest we shelve this until season two.

What hatred? How does being disappointed with a character = hatred? I'm arguing in the interest of a YMMV trope that I think could be validate by book 2. But, yes, the verdict is out until book two, I'm willing to concede that.

And since when is analysis = overreacting?

"the very arguments you're using show you've made up your mind and no amount of argument or fact is going to change it."

Um... isn't the point of an argument is that you believe in your own side, and you're trying to convince others to see it that way too? Which I'm not dead set in them, I'm willing to listen to other opinions, and I've even conceded to other opinions. So...

Sorry if I didn't immediately note the error of my ways and defect to your side of things, I guess I don't know how to argue properly :/

There is such a thing as subjectivity you know. Gee, I wonder why it's called your millage may vary. Perhaps if you employed it, and were respectful to your opposition, then your own arguments would be validated. Oh, but I already was validating them, and respecting them, but you clearly don't do the same.

What is logic? I'm done with this. Literally, because the mod's right, we should wait until book two. But also metaphorically, because you're mean!

I'm with CCOA. No point in arguing this if you're not even arguing it's the trope, and this is the last I'll say on it, but I will address this point, however, since it seems I was unclear.

—"the very arguments you're using show you've made up your mind and no amount of argument or fact is going to change it."

By this I mean you're citing things as evidence which directly contradict the point you're trying to make, in this case, that Mako being angry meant he shouldn't have been able to conjure lightning, contrasted against other lightning users in the series.

This implies either you're unaware of that evidence existing, or you're ignoring it, deliberately or otherwise, which indicates a lack of intention of arguing in good faith. You said:

Ozai and Azula have inner calm and peace, because they have no shame, nor doubt, nor angst. They're perfectly composed

I refer you to the finale, where Azula is, as mentioned, bat-shit crazy, full of doubt, ashamed of being pushed aside by Ozai, and drowning in angst. And still fires off lightning without a lick of trouble. To a lesser extent, Ozai is clearly enraged at Zuko when he fires off lightning on the Day of Black Sun.

In contrast, when Zuko tried and couldn't get the lightning to work, he was not at all outwardly angry. He was as calm as he ever was at that point in the series.

If Azula can summon lightning while going through a full blown psychotic delusional breakdown, then why raise a stink about Mako summoning lightning while being angry at exactly the right guy he should be angry at?

Iroh, when he's talking about creating lightning, talks about being conflicted. Zuko was all kinds of conflicted, and thus couldn't summon lightning. Azula and Ozai were clearly enraged at various points they summoned lightning, but weren't conflicted about it.

Mako was angry, yes—but given we see him bending lightning with relative ease in episode 3, he's clearly not conflicted, and in that moment there's no reason to believe he was at all conflicted about who he was or what he had to do. Ergo, he can summon lightning.

Okay, maybe I wasn't clear enough: Knock it off.

If you want to debate whether or not Mako using lightning in the finale breaks Magic A Is Magic A, Take It To The Forums.

I'm thinking that the Unfortunate Implication that the editor intended is that since she is a female, she automatically needs to have a boyfriend/love interest.

Wrong use of the trope, though.

It would only be an unfortunate implication if the previous series hadn't similarly set up a romance arc for it's own main character, in that case, a young boy. Which they set up with the first episode. Which means technically Korra actually waited longer to set up its romance plot.

I don't see it either... but one can arguably see Unfortunate Implications on how several fans (specially of the "fake feminist" kind) start complaining the moment a female character is (GASP) involved in ANYTHING romantic, whether it's well-done or not. Apparenty, these specific parts of any fandoms believe that female characters should be forbidden of having anything similar to romantic feelings at all to be respected as Strong Women - which is extremely misogynistic in itself.

I could see Mako cheating on Asami with Korra, then getting with Korra instead of Bolin, who explains why he likes Korra and even took her on a date, gets shoved to the side says that it's ok to cheat if you really like the person you're cheating with, and that being a nice guy will get you nowhere.

And that has... what to do with what we're discussing? Seriously, can we not cram Mako hate into everything?

Sorry. I meant that the way the show presented things, Mako was dishonest and ended up with the best ending. I felt like that was what came across when I watched the show. I'm not trying to cram Mako hate into everything. I think I'll just stop posting stuff here and save everyone a headache because I just keep getting flak for it. I obviously can't look objectively at this.

I removed it the first time, and I'm not a "rampant Makorra fan". I removed it because it had been put on the page after 5 episodes.

Reading Romantic Plot Tumor, in order to qualify, the romance sub-plot must eclipse the main plot - that was not the case then, and I'd say that's even less the case now. While the romance is present, it has nowhere near enough screentime to threaten the main plot.

Now that I'm trope browsing, it looks more like a Token Romance at this point.

Yeah, that seems more the trope to me.

Could also turn out to be type 3 Strangled By The Red String if Mako and Korra do end up together this season. Have to wait and see how that turns out.

Nope, it's not a Token Romance. If you removed the romance, entire episodes would be rendered incomprehensible without massive rewrites and a completely overhaul of how the characters interact with each other and the world at large.

It's also not a Romantic Plot Tumor because it's part of a greater plotline, in which the way these characters deal with their hormones lets them grow up. For goodness sake, part of the resolution to Episode 7 was Korra realizing that Asami's well-being was more important than a crush on Mako and ensuring that Mako took care of her in a time of need. Yea, that really sounds OMG MAKORRA 4EVER.

You know. Like the last series, except with older characters.

I took the trope out because it's obvious there's an anti-shipper on board that willfully ignores the actual main plot to pretend that the entire show is nothing but Mako and Korra's sexual lust. I mean, really? Episode 9 according to this troper is apparently NOT Korra's self-discovery, or Lin finding her men while redeeming her own pride, or Tarrlock's undoing through his own actions. It's apparently all about a plot that took about a minute of screentime which had built off of previously established character traits and scenes. Also, apparently Bolin and Asami can now be safely reduced from complex characters with story arcs of their own to "shipping fodder." Wow, and here I thought the character arc about Asami losing her entire life and being betrayed by those closest to her was relevant (and hey, I guess it's totally not relevant that such a deep and brutal betrayal of trust might make her really paranoid). But nope, its apparently a show entirely about how she'll be dumped by Mako because OMG MAKORRA and nothing about Asami is relevant except how much of an obstacle she is to OMG MAKORRA. And apparently her actual worried reaction didn't exist in this alternate universe, along with Tenzin and Lin, who reacted FIRST to finding Korra. And furthermore, in this alternate universe, Tenzin's reaction to one of Korra's closest friends trying to help her out would be to bludgeon him for touching her for some reason (also, when did the relation to Aang annd it's importance to Tenzin ever come up past the first episode? It's really never been mentioned, and that's actually bugged me all series).

I know this may be hard to accept but maybe...just maybe...shows are in fact allowed to contain subplots about characters love lives that don't in fact have anything to do with fans expecting everyone to pile onto each other in a massive orgy. You don't have to like it, but that doesn't mean slapping tropes that don't fit onto it because you're not a fan of romance.

Oh, and if they do get together, I'll probably go to the mat on Strangled By The Red String too because much like the last series, way too many get way too obsessed with romance on this franchise and scream till their faces turn blue if their chosen couple doesn't get together. Mako and Korra have plenty of reasons to try and hook up as a couple, whether that's actually going to work or not.

It depends on execution, not the mere existence.

I'm casting another vote for Strangled By The Red String. Honestly, as a nonshipper, Mako liking Korra came from absolutely nowhere starting episode 5 and has been extremely forced and distracting once it showed up to the point of Character Derailment in my opinion. Mako is established as very protective. Okay. We saw how Mako reacts when Bolin, his only living family member, was in serious danger after being kidnapped. He was concerned and worked to rescue him, but he kept a cool head. Mako when Korra was kidnapped was willing to burn an Equalist's face in his rage to get information about her. That's just sloppy inconsistent writing because of the romance subplot. Bolin, one of the main characters, has gotten considerably less dialog than Korra, Mako, Asami, Tenzin, and Lin in literally every episode following "Spirit of Competition. And his involvement has gotten less and less each episode since then. He just got completely sidelined once episode 5 showed up.

I don't want to argue this too much before the series concludes, especially not with Rebochan, but from Strangled By The Red String:

Roy and Missy do interact very frequently, maybe having romantic chemistry or even Unresolved Sexual Tension, but when they fall in love, it's done in a clumsy or poorly written way that doesn't make their getting together seem believable.

Again, it really depends on how (and if) it's written in the end, but this, like the poster above me, is the vibe I've been getting so far.

There's a reason that trope is YMMV, at any rate.

Starting in Episode 5? Did episode 2 and 3 not happen?

And Mako did not keep a cool head for much of it. He flipped out. He didn't calm down until he and Korra had a plan later in the episode (i.e. when they knew where he was.) In Episode 9, nobody had a plan to find Korra except "look harder."

Plus, in Episode 3, nobody knew about the real threat Amon presented yet. In Episode 9, everyone knew, hence Mako would logically have a stronger reaction to knowing Korra (or anyone he is close to) is being held by them.

Labeling and complaining about the opposition is not a way to debate in good faith. Kindly keep it civil.

At any rate, we seem to agree Romantic Plot Tumor doesn't fit, so the commented out warning stays.

I edited my last post for the sake of civility.

Now that I've had this pointed out to me, the whole romance subplot might still be a Romantic Plot Tumor because it overshadowed Korra's original reasons for coming to Republic City: To master and learn airbending and spirituality.

Adding another vote to Strangled By The Red String, If Makorra was just handled like Kataang, like you know, hinted from the start and they didn't have Asami or Bolin as just some romantic drama plot devices, NOR do we even really see WHY they fall in love, they just DO....it could of been better. I understand time constraints, but I've seen great writers pull things off in a short amount of time, no reason this series can't be the same. Besides, it's a YMMV trope page, some people find it a YMMV, some don't. So no reason to not add it.

How has the romance plot in anyway overshadowed anything in this show considering that it's had considerably less total screentime? I'm also fairly certain Korra's original reasons for showing up did not involve breaking up open rebellion or competing on a pro-bending team (both of which take considerably more plot time than the romance arc), so that's not valid either. That's not even getting into the fact that Lin's entire plot arc has taken up more time in the last several episodes than the romance arc, but I don't see anyone calling Spotlight Stealing Squad on her.

YMMV is not a dumping ground for fandom ranting, you still have to have a valid trope.

Oh, and as far as Strangled By The Red String, you can't declare it before anything's happened, though I suspect due to the shipping base this fandom has, the entry is pre-written and will go up as soon as the ending credits roll for the series finale.

As I said, Korra's love triangle has completely overtaken and overshadowed one of the original plots of the series; Korra mastering airbending and the spiritual side of being the Avatar. Both of which have been completely abandoned aside from Korra getting some flashbacks.

I think it's too early to say they've been completely abandoned - it's almost certain to be involved in the series climax due to this originally being planned to be a stand-alone season.

I don't really agree that it is the main plot of the series, either.

Rebochan, your ranting about the fandom is getting old, fast.

The main plot of the series is stopping Amon from debending everyone, something that started before the romance plot in fact. When has that stopped being the focus in favor of who's boinking who?

When has Korra stopped working on the Amon problem in the last few episodes to even vaguely worry about her crush on Mako? The one person bringing it up repeatedly is actually Asami...and not in front of Korra.

I wouldn't say it stopped the focus more of...kinda of distracted that focus. Romance in ATLA never felt like it was distracting from the focus, it blended with the show. The romance here...at times it feels to much, like a teen drama. Part of the problem is obviously time contraints, but it felt they could of edited some of that drama out and instead developed characters or fight scenes more. But again, that is a YMMV, which is what this page is correct?

But it's still not a Romantic Plot Tumor, because it doesn't overshadow the main plot. Romance overshadowing other subplots is not the trope.

Now that S1 is done, you know, the original story they wanted to tell before S2 began production, has finished, can we add Strangled By The Red String yet? Because I fucking hated the romance in this series in ways I didn't know was possible.

Only if you can be neutral, not bash, not exaggerate, and acknowledge that like all ymmv entries, not everyone agrees and they are not bad for thinking so.

If you "fucking hated it", you might need to calm down first. I'd suggest said trope get drafted here first to cut down on edit wars and inevitable threadmode natter.

"Only if you can be neutral, not bash, not exaggerate, and acknowledge that like all ymmv entries, not everyone agrees and they are not bad for thinking so."

Do you think maybe you could try doing this too? All over this thread your replies have come across as very hostile and sarcastic.

Only in response to the more hostile attitudes presented.

You may have noticed I did not write trope entries on this page on these more difficult topics for that reason. Unfortunately, too many people mix up YMMV tropes with "Fandom whining dumping ground." For example, Strangled By The Red String is explicitly not a trope intended for complaining and is very clear that a couple in its pages is not a condemnation of the couple or the plot itself. A trope entry on that topic that just whined endlessly about Mako while making more and more flame bait is not the point of that trope at all.

I am against Mokorra being labeled as Strangled By The Red String because I feel the writing was done well. The clues are there if you know what to look for, such as Mako's apology to Asami which signified his sadness he messed things up between them but also he knows now while he does care for Asami deeply, he cares for Korra even more.

The point of the trope isn't that a couple is bad, but that some people feel it was underdeveloped.

I noticed someone added it already, but it was really tame. I cleaned it up a little to point out that there's still another season (so calling anyone OTP is premature), but hey, as long as it isn't a big rant about the characters or the writers, then I may have regained a little bit of faith in the fandom...

...*sniff* I wanted Dokorra.

Agree with Strangled By The Red String - people are allowed to disagree with it but this is YMMV, and a lot of people genuinely didn't interpret the "breakup" as a breakup. Plus, I'm not at all sure what Mako and Korra like each other for. Maybe season 2 will do better with it.

So, proposal for the entry, feel free to steal (it was deleted as of this writing with a "wait for it to be resolved in Discussion" which is why I'm here instead of adding it myself):

Strangled By The Red String: Mako and Korra's promotion to Official Couple in the Book 1 finale. Rabid shipping asside, the Love Triangle between them an Assami progresses from "Korra trying to force her affections on Mako while he's dating Assami" to "Korra growing up and telling Mako to be with Assami when she needs him most" to "Oh, Mako has a thing for Korra after all and is suddenly being insensitive to Assami". Also, the scene between Mako and Assami that probably signified their official breakup confused a lot of people because "I'm sorry for how I acted and whatever happens, I still care for you" does not sound a lot like a clean breakup. Nor is it really ever made clear why they fell for each other beyond Korra's initial infatuation. Book 2 now has a chance to flesh things out, however.

"Oh, Mako has a thing for Korra after all and is suddenly being insensitive to Assami" isn't quite the right order, since it was made clear that Mako did have feelings for her before he was insensitive to Asami.

Hmmm.

• Strangled By The Red String: Mako and Korra's promotion to Official Couple in the Book 1 finale. Rabid shipping asside, the Love Triangle between them and Asami felt rushed and underdeveloped, with complications resulting from and reasons for their attraction glossed over, told instead of shown, or quickly buried. Asami and Mako's breakup scene being easily misinterpreted didn't help matters. However, the show still has at least one more season to flesh things out.

Any better?

That wasn't a break up scene, I have a link somewhere on tumblr, but even Bill said that a break up between them possibly happened off-screen, if it did (he was being vague kinda imo). Which...still doesn't help things if the break up was offscreen. All things aside, ccoa has a nice neutral post that has my vote.

It was a break up scene, just a subtle one. You don't tell someone, "I still care about you," unless the relationship has changed in a fundamental way. He was leaving half of what was meant unsaid.

What he meant was, "This isn't working out, but I still care about you."

Okay, trying again:

• Strangled By The Red String: Mako and Korra's promotion to Official Couple in the Book 1 finale. Rabid shipping asside, the Love Triangles between Mako, Korra, Bolin, and Asami felt rushed and underdeveloped, with complications resulting from and reasons for their attraction glossed over, told instead of shown, or quickly buried. The ambiguity of whether Mako and Asami broke up during the season and whether or not Bolin was over Korra didn't help matters. With one more season to set things aright, however, whether this applies in the long run or not is still up in the air.

Okay, since there are no objections I'm going to go ahead and put this up.

I don't feel they were "strangled" but then this is YMMV so go for it.

A bit late, but yeah, ccoa's is fine.

The Asami entry in basebreaker looks fine, everything else should stay gone.

Well, I didn't see anyone else contribute much, so for now, I'll re-add the Asami entry.

Yakone was explicitly stated to be a serial murderer, which is why he was in the courtroom in the first place. There's also the revelations about his past in ep. 11, and what happened to him after being de-bent, and how he went on to have a family and what he made his sons do. He had a shot at redemption, taking a kind woman to be his wife and starting out as a decent father, but blew it when he found out his sons were waterbenders and set out to turn them into his tools of revenge.

I woudn't say that he's quite despicable enough yet, he still has some claim to being a Well Intentioned Extremist, even if he is openly power-hungry. Wait an episode or two and I wouldn't be surprised if he pitched over into this territory though. For me the Gold standard for Love To Hate is Joffrey Baratheon. The key there is that you get a buzz of sheer hatred because you can not only see how his selfishness and sadism is devastating and killing others and that he has no empathy whatsoever, but also that he has no sane reason for doing what he does other than being a petulant child. I'm just not getting that feeling from Tarlock yet.

I always thought Love To Hate was a villain that you know full well is evil, you hate them for doing what they did to the main characters or the story or whatever, and yet, you admire it in some way, maybe you go, "Oh, that clever little bastard / bitch", they're entertaining, or whatever.

Like Discord from My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic. A god of chaos, screws over the mane characters, and the entire world, and sends it into a state of disarray and chaos. The effects are very amusing (literal chocolate rain, dancing buffalo in tutus, cotton candy clouds, upside down buildings, one of the characters acting like a playful dog, etcetera), and it doesn't hurt that he's Laughably Evil, but his actions are devastating at the same time (the mane character is sent past the Despair Event Horizon, losing all hope and having lost her friends to Discord, the world is a wreck and the Big Good is nowhere to be found, at the time).

In this case, I saw Tarrlok as a clever bastard, and while I hated everything he has done, especially to Korra, and knowing that he's psychotic, a Bloodbender, and just downright evil... the fact that he was simply just a smug Jerkass before, and surprising me in that he's actually a damned effective villain, makes me hate him, but love how effective he was.

But, since it WAS just revealed, we would have to wait an episode or two to see if his villainy would continue, right?

Yeah I don't think either one of those counts as a moral event horizon. Moral event horizon means that there is no way the character who has crossed it can ever be redeemed or viewed as a sympathetic character, neither Amon nor Tarlok are really irredeemable yet.

Could they still be viewed as sympathetic? Amon's got his backstory, having lost his face and family to a Firebender (However, it's not sure how reliable that is), but what about Tarrlok? I don't see him as sympathetic in the slightest.

There's clearly a complicated backstory behind Tarrlok - look at how he freaked out when Korra compared him to Amon. Nothing we've seen so far is remotely sympathetic, but we haven't seen all or even much of his character yet.

I'm not saying that he's sympathetic now, just that he hasn't done enough bad that he couldn't potentially be viewed as sympathetic in the future, or that he was redeemed. Besides, even if he were a Complete Monster that action still wouldn't qualify as a Moral Event Horizon because that alone wouldn't be enough to make a different character into a Complete Monster. Now if he were taking Korra away to torture or murder her (which he might be but we don't know) that might qualify as a Moral Event Horizon.

Remember - it's possible to cross the Moral Event Horizon without being a Complete Monster.

You can be totally irredeemable whilst still being capable of regretting your actions and preforming altruistic acts.

I know that I just don't think that Tarlock or Amon are irredeemable either. I feel that either one still has a (admittedly extremely slim in Tarlock's case) chance of seeing the error of their ways or possibly getting a sympathetic POV similar to what happened to Jaime Lannister in Storm of Swords. In Amon's case I believe that whatever else he may have done, he is sincerely devoted to an essentially unselfish idea, however misguided he may be in terms of how to pursue it.

...you know, in light of how the show actually turned out, this comment was surprisingly prescient.

Where do you see the Double Standard? Korra does show trauma after that encounter (immediately afterward and she's shown to be rattled whenever she hears his voice on the radio), and Tahno- you know, male-is shown to be even more so traumatized (actually,it kind of plays like a symbolic Rape As Redemption) so it's not like the show plays up the debending of a female character and downplays that of a male character.

Bloodbending didn't really get a "rape metaphor" in the original series, regardless of who was doing it and the gender of their victim(s). It was basically presented as Black Magic/a magical form of torture that was not ok for anyone to use.

Edit- Granted, depending wasn't presented as rape when Amon did it to those male gangsters (and was going to do it to Bolin); it was more like a public execution metaphor.

The Double standard is that Amon and Tarlock are portrayed as "raping" korra when they're really just defeating her in combat because they're male and she's female. Thus they get portrayed as rapists when they're really just Combat Pragmatists.

After watching the episode, I'm not so sure that Tarrlok is portrayed as a metaphorical rapist by the show (fandom is another story). It seemed to me at least that bloodbending had the same portrayal as it did the last series- an unforgivable action that evokes horror because of how it takes away the victim's will and kills them with their own body. Arguably, bloodbending is kind of inherently "rapey" regardless of the gender of the user/victim.

As for Amon, I do think his actions toward Korra were portrayed as rapey, although they were also shown as rapey when he debended Tahno.

I was mainly referring to a double standard in the fandom rather than the show itself. I don't really buy that Bloodbending is inherently evil or "rapey" but that's a matter of opinion.

Just add the entry then, you don't need anyone's permission here.

I know this is old, but err...Draco Malfoy, the trope namer, was shown sympathetically as of book 6 and 7. That doesn't make the fandom's response of whitewashing all his Jerk Ass and even evil actions before and after in any way justified.

Sure we're meant to feel pity for Tahno after he's be de-bended, but that doesn't retroactively whitewash everything he said and did back when he was a jerk, a bully, and a cheater. But that's exactly what the fangirls were doing to him since day one. Making him out to be a good guy and potential love interest for Korra], and usually these same fans were [[RonTheDeathEater hoping Asami turned out to be an Equalist spy. A Draco In Leather Pants doesn't stop being one just when they're given sympathetic qualities. If you absolve them of all wrongdoing just to make them look less flawed, your still giving them that treatment. Tahno fits the bill exactly like Draco does.