Discussion YMMV / TheLegendofKorra

The Scrappy entry is a recent addition, and honestly, I'm all in favor of cutting it. While Mako gets his fair share of heat for bungling things with the love triangle, he doesn't get anywhere near enough hate from the fandom for him to meet the criteria for being The Scrappy: a trope that would require him to be universally reviled to extremely high levels. If anything, the fandom has become less hostile to him over time.

Well, it's been three months and no one else has weighed in on this conundrum, so I guess I'll take care of it.

Could you cite some specific examples? Some of us don't have the DV Ds.

Every single time Mako made a mistake in the show, Bryke brought up their awareness of the fandom's Mako hate for things like these and then proceeded to defend and justify his behavior and actions. Their excuses were "he's a flawed human being and a teenager. He's gonna make mistakes. Don't hate him for it 'cause he's awesome otherwise. Forgive and forget!" Completely ignoring that their narrative did not paint Mako's choices as mistakes that had to have repercussions ('cause they didn't) and he never ever owed up to those mistakes. At all. In fact, he blamed everyone involved in the love square for something or other EXCEPT himself. That Bryke just glosses over this and actually insist (right there, in the commentary) that all Mako haters are just angry shippers butthurt over their pairing not happening shows to me that Mako is their Creator's Pet.

""he's a flawed human being and a teenager. He's gonna make mistakes. Don't hate him for it 'cause he's awesome otherwise. Forgive and forget!""

This: 1. They're basically saying that age automatically absolves one of needing criticism, which in truth is how people grow. So either messed up morals or favoritism. Not flattering either way.

2. Heck, here's food for thought. Compared to the actions of Ozai and Amon, Sokka's sexism could easily be defended on the grounds that "he's a teenage boy". Yet the previous series had him called out on it. So why is Mako's behavior okay, while Sokka's isn't?

Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

^ Agreed. I think there's a significant difference between Character Shilling and a creator not really understanding the incredibly intense backlash that part of the fandom has.

Not saying it's wrong, but... well, we need to take some of these things with a grain of salt due to strong feelings on both sides.

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Here's one of the quotes "Wait until you're in college and like two people at once, then get back to me about how you act."

Sounds like a deflection of criticism to me. And I have to ask, why do characters like Tahno and Sokka get called out for their actions, but Mako doesn't? I mean going with Bryke's logic, cheating at sports and sexism isn't on par with genocide or terrorism. Thus the only answer is favortism.

Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

It's not a deflection of criticism of Mako's actions, he's responding to criticism of how he was written. He's not saying "Mako's actions are okay because of this," he's saying, "Mako's acting like this because he's in an awkward situation and people that age don't know how to handle it."

You're trying to make it sound like he's saying Mako's completely excused and faultless, but what he's actually saying is, "Mako's a dumb teenager, he's not going to act like a completely perfect saint."

And I really don't understand the last couple sentences. Why are you bringing up genocide or terrorism? Sokka and Tahno get called out for their actions because they were acting like obnoxious pricks. Mako, for the most part, doesn't.

Edited by 216.99.32.43

"I mean going with Bryke's logic, cheating at sports and sexism isn't on par with genocide or terrorism."

That doesn't make sense, because the way that's written, you're arguing that it is, despite the first two merely being assholish behavior, while the latter two involves murder.

Based on your quote of Bryke, I have to agree with MrDeath in that he's not being talked about as correct and his behavior is excused, but rather his behavior is understandable in that he's a confused and inexperienced teenager who doesn't always make the best decisions.

He's in over his head, there's a major crisis with world-affecting implications he's not trained for but is caught up in because someone he deeply cares about is stuck in the middle, and his hormones are not helping.

It would be nice if they can have part of season 2 dedicated to calling out his bullshit now that the world-shaking crisis is over and they've had time to cool down and mull over what he did. What Mako did was wrong, but it's the kind of thing that getting all flustered about when terrorists are overthrowing the city and will likely use it as a launching point for more conquests seems kind of petty.

"And I really don't understand the last couple sentences. Why are you bringing up genocide or terrorism?"

Because usually when people try to defend Mako, they point out how he doesn't need to be called out on his actions, you know, because there are characters who've done much worse than two-timing.

So I figure that Sokka and Tahno's behavior is more comparable, yet they got chewed out by the narrative, while Mako didn't. Plus to play the devil's advocate, sexism and cheating at sports is something that teenage boys do. Thus aren't wrong.

"Sokka and Tahno get called out for their actions because they were acting like obnoxious pricks. Mako, for the most part, doesn't."

• Never admits his part in the kiss.
• When approached on it, he still denies it.
• Tries to put his brother on the spot. Yeah, the only time you get to keep secrets and expect others to do so is when it's not a harmful secret (undermining someone elses trust and all).
• When Asami makes some well deserved jabs, he makes her out to be the bad guy for the horrific crime of "wanting her boyfriend to be honest".
• And even if you don't think he could have backed out of the first kiss, he was about to kiss Korra in Episode 11. You know, in the same room where his girlfriend was sleeping.
• Ok, even if there wasn't time for a lengthy apology on his part, why could his dialogue have been "I'm sorry I messed things up between us", rather "I'm sorry things got messed up between us". What we got sounded more like condolences offered by a guy who wasn't at fault for how things turned out, whereas my rewording of it as small as it maybe at least has him admitting he is partially to blame.

"Based on your quote of Bryke, I have to agree with Mr Death in that he's not being talked about as correct and his behavior is excused, but rather his behavior is understandable in that he's a confused and inexperienced teenager who doesn't always make the best decisions."

Yeah, all good in theory, but the point is they want us to respect the character, even without doing anything writing that would provoke the audience to cooperate. Giving him a more direct apology, plus having him break up with Asami without the certainty that Korra would take him, would have been a big step in that.

In contrast, Sokka directly apologizes for his sexism and develops more respect. As such, the audience is more inclined to respect him.

Tahno, well aside from sympathizing, he works as his character isn't suppose to be respectable.

And I'm still iffy on whether or not there was enough time for a better apology. So, we can't fit in a better apology, but we definitely needed to have Amon praising Mako's "talent", and fit in some moments where Bolin's buttmonkey status is demonstrated.

So whether it's favoritism, or not understanding that you have to earn respect through admitting and working on your flaws, Bryke doesn't come off well either way.

Edited by 69.172.221.4 Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

Never admits his part in the kiss. Etc.

And not one bit of that even remotely fits the definition of an obnoxious prick. Mako's behavior is not at all comparable to Sokka's (where he repeatedly and obnoxiously puts down the Kiyoshi Warriors for being girls, right to their face), or Tahno's (where he...well, was Tahno). Mako is pretty clearly someone who's caught in an awkward situation, and flailing to try and make up for it—he's not deliberately being a dick, like Sokka and Tahno were. There really is no valid comparison between the two.

And no, the choices weren't between "have him apologize vs. have him be talked up." Not everything works on the dichotomy in your head of "The creators are only considering how much some people are going to hate this character."

Edited by 216.99.32.43

I'm not sure whether or not Mako is a Creator's Pet, but I will admit that it kind of rankles (and probably has a lot to do with why so many people hate Mako), that while early commentary on the characters described Bolin as a cool, fun loving Chick Magnet and Mako as along the lines of an Ineffectual Loner- then, the show itself has Bolin as a pathetic Butt-Monkey and Mako as the cool type of loner.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

Don't put words in my mouth, and don't pull that skewed hyperbole, please, Antiyonder.

You're blowing everything out of proportion here. Bolin gets three words telling him that he was being too cheery at the wrong time. You're trying to make it seem like everyone put him through the wringer as penance for it.

I mean, good god, what do you want here? For Mako to be put through the wringer because he had the gall to be a dumb teenager who made a couple mistakes?

All you've made clear here is that you hate Mako, therefore anything that portrays him vaguely positively must be character shilling because he made the kind of mistake any idiot kid in love (read: everyone) can and would make.

Edited by 216.99.32.45

I mean, this may surprise you, but punishing Mako for making the entirely understandable, if dumb, mistakes he made because he's in over his head in several ways all at once isn't the main focus of the series.

Edited by 216.99.32.45

"You're blowing everything out of proportion here. Bolin gets three words telling him that he was being too cheery at the wrong time."

He got some angry stares as well.

I mean, good god, what do you want here? For Mako to be put through the wringer because he had the gall to be a dumb teenager who made a couple mistakes?

Making mistakes on their own, no. Making mistakes and not owning up to them is where the problem is.

Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

Angry stares? Okay. You're still blowing everything out of proportion.

What is he supposed to do to "own up" to them? What we see does not present him with the time and opportunity to do so, because he's right in the middle of a dozen things that are infinitely more important than him apologizing.

"What is he supposed to do to "own up" to them?"

Basically a more direct apology for the kiss and trying to hide it rather than "I'm sorry things got messed up between us".

I fail to see why expecting something like "I'm sorry I messed things up between us" is so unreasonable. I mean to improve on a mistake, you have to admit that one was made.

"What we see does not present him with the time and opportunity to do so, because he's right in the middle of a dozen things that are infinitely more important than him apologizing."

Well, Episode 10 was a good time (Not to mention that apologizing in that Episode eliminates the problems I listed). Korra got better and there was no Equalist activity, plus they had time to rest and mingle (in Episode 11) prior to General Iroh showing up.

Edited by 69.172.221.6 Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

Even if Korra was better and there wasn't any Equalists attacking right that second, Korra's recovery and the Equalist threat is still weighing more heavily on everybody's minds than Mako messing up.

And are we seriously arguing on that minor level of semantics? "I'm sorry things got messed up" vs. "I'm sorry I messed things up"? Really? This seems to assume that all the blame is laid at Mako's feet, which it isn't.

"Even if Korra was better and there wasn't any Equalists attacking right that second, Korra's recovery and the Equalist threat is still weighing more heavily on everybody's minds than Mako messing up."

That still doesn't make his inability to own up to it right. And it doesn't change the fact that it still was a good time to resolve things between them.

Point is, Bryke expected us to respect him, without giving us any reasons to do so. And that's not how respect works.

"This seems to assume that all the blame is laid at Mako's feet, which it isn't."

No it isn't, but he still gets some of the blame. Now if Korra grabbed a hold of him, not letting him go and he struggled to break free from the kiss, then there would be a case of not blaming Mako or at least not so much.

Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

Him making one extra, some would say superfluous, apology is not the only criteria for respecting someone.

Korra initiated the kiss. Just because Mako didn't fight her off doesn't make it his fault. What was he going to do, deck her?

"Korra initiated the kiss. Just because Mako didn't fight her off doesn't make it his fault. What was he going to do, deck her?"

Back away perhaps or push her away gently. Again, she didn't hold him into the kiss, he chose to continue it.

"Him making one extra, some would say superfluous, apology is not the only criteria for respecting someone."

Well, there's also the fact that his (direct) apology involves him being honest. Second, look at the following moments:

• When approached on it, he still denies it.
• Tries to put his brother on the spot. Yeah, the only time you get to keep secrets and expect others to do so is when it's not a harmful secret (undermining someone elses trust and all).
• When Asami makes some well deserved jabs, he makes her out to be the bad guy for the horrific crime of "wanting her boyfriend to be honest".

Now had Mako apologized sooner, these moments wouldn't have happened. As such, he would have less to apologize for.

Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

I think we've gone far beyond the point. It's still not Creator's Pet. Nothing you've said serves as any kind of actual support for that trope qualification, so I think we're done here. "He didn't apologize to my particular standards" isn't the trope.

Ok, then.

• How about the fact that even though he was poor and unable to afford lessons, that he has skills that should be beyond his capabilities? I mean take Bloodbending. If an experienced Avatar like Aang couldn't resist it without going into Avatar State, then why should Mako of all people succeed?
  • Or for that matter, being able to use lightning without killing someone (which even the elder Iroh couldn't do)?

• Heck, in Book 2 he's a cop, why? Granted, his characterization was inconsistent, to a degree he came off as someone more concerned with protecting only those that are close to him. Thus it's a bit iffy that he's suddenly interested in a profession that involves protecting countless strangers. And while he made a joke about Korra's only friend being a polar bear dog, his jokes in regard to responding to the crooks he captured feels more like the kind of joking that Bolin would do.
  • Korra misusing the Avatar State to win a race, Asami having to work to save her failing company and Bolin becoming a Captain to a Probending team all make sense given what we saw of them in Book 1. In other words, it's like they're trying to make Mako as cool as possible, even if what he's doing clashes with his Book 1 portrayal.

So in addition to getting off scot free for his mistake (And no, just no. Just because everyone makes mistakes is no reason not to improve from them), he's being pretty skillful despite not being a near godlike being/experienced warrior and having a cool job which isn't supported with his Book 1 portrayal (as well as getting to be the first know Firebending Cop). I mean can't he just be average in something he does, as opposed to being the best?

How is he not deemed a Mary Sue?

Edited by 69.172.221.4 Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

Because none of that qualifies him as a Mary Sue. "A character I don't like gets to do cool stuff," doesn't make him a Mary Sue.

True. Also, while I'm guessing Antiyonder wouldn't be likely accept Word of God on this, the creators have said that in the present setting, it isn't uncommon to be able to lightening bend- Mako and other firebenders use the skill working as low paid blue collar workers, and the creators say that it is very physically draining work.

Now I can't remember if we actually see other firebenders doing it or even Mako at work doing it (I don't think so, but I could be wrong), but the lightening bending is in-universe not supposed to be anything that special anymore.

In terms of cops in general, it does seem kind of strange- personality issues aside, we know there are earthbender/metalbender cops but haven't seen any firebender ones yet- so yeah, you'd probably expect Bolin to be the brother in that profession.

However, it seems plausible to me (or at least this is how I'd write it) that there are probably public safety officials from all of the bending disciplines as well (except airbending of course) as some nonbenders.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

We do see a bunch of Lightning Bending workers. It doesn't even seem to be particularly specialized work, since Mako's still pretty destitute. However, I do think Antiyonger's point was that Mako managed to lightning bend while bloodbent. Which is pretty much "because the plot dictated he did so." Amon was probably still Bloodbending Korra to keep her in place just in case and he just took away her bending. He was overconfident, his attention was divided, and taking away the Avatar's bending has to be at least a little draining, I must say.

Personality-wise it does make a lot of sense to me. He does have a tendency to protect those he cares about, yes. But... those he cares about are doing better now. Bolin's doing better, Korra is essentially a public servant herself (only her boss is, you know, the Universe). And him being a firebending cop ties in very well to the show's themes of a person's ethnicity not determining everything about them. They've been working really hard to subvert bending stereotypes so it's a logical progression.

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• Ok, I get Amon was distracted, but they hyped Bloodbending to be this gamebreaking move that only priviledged few can overcome. So, if something so simple like distraction can be used against them, then maybe hinting to it before hand should be done.

• Larkman: Mako's ethnic status isn't why I'm puzzled about him being a cop. It's because personality wise or character wise, nothing suggested that he would consider working for the police force. I mean Bolin being the Captain of a Probending team works, because Bolin genuinely loves the sport. Korra never really grew out of her mentality that power is everything, so I'm not surprised that she'd abuse her powers to win in a race. Asami trying to save her father's company works because it aids in Asami trying to redeem the family name. But Mako's character was given nothing interms of genuine interest outside girls. And the only reason he took care of Bolin is because they're brothers.

"Because none of that qualifies him as a Mary Sue. "A character I don't like gets to do cool stuff," doesn't make him a Mary Sue."

If you're not going to explain the flaws of my comments in better detail beyond "you're wrong", why bother responding? I mean even if I'm wrong, I have to courtesy to at least specify my stance.

Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

The thing is, your comments aren't really "evidence that he's a Mary Sue" so much as relatively unrelated complaints about Mako. Your comments are flawed because your definition of Mary Sue is wrong. A badass in a World of Badass doing something badass? That's just another day in the Avatar universe. Honestly, Iroh would be a better fit for being a Mary Sue in my book (descendent of popular character, named for an even more popular character, smart, skilled, high ranking at a very young age, the man figured out how to fly a biplane about an hour after learning they exist... not that he needs to, because he can freaking fly on his own). Do I think he's a Mary Sue? No, I just think that he's a badass in a World of Badass.

Here's the way I see Mako: You said it yourself, he's spent pretty much his entire life protecting his loved ones, right? What's happened now? His girlfriend is literally the most powerful fighter on the planet, his brother is off the streets and a successful pro bender, and he's finally got some stability in his life. It's actually pretty similar to Akihiko Sanada, who became a strong fighter in order to protect those he loved. What did he do once he didn't have to protect anyone anymore? He became a cop. But I digress. He's a guy freed from the responsibilities that dictated his actions until now, and recently found himself a major player in defending the city. Is it that weird that he might have, you know, liked that and wanted to keep doing it?

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"Is it that weird that he might have, you know, liked that and wanted to keep doing it?"

If he had been fleshed out better, then no it wouldn't be weird. But here's all we're given for Mako characterwise:

• Episode 2-4: The desire to keep his brother off the streets. No career plan or hobby.
• Episode 5-12: His love life. Korra and Asami despite being part of the triangle at least had things outside it going for them.

Not really enough to find his career to be anything other than an attempt to make him cool. And again, his joking style feels more like a ripoff of Bolin than say his own snarky moments of jokes (mainly because his personality at the end of the day is boring, so they had to change it randomly to make him "fun").

But, I'll bite. What would it take for him to qualify as a creator's pet? I mean, having cool things happening to the character, even if it's Mako, would be fine if there was a set up for these cool things, rather than just doing them at random.

Edited by 69.172.221.4 Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

Actually fitting the criteria of that trope. I suggest you read it and Mary Sue. All you've listed is your own personal complaints about him, none of which fit either trope.

Mr Death> Yeah, how about actually telling me why I'm wrong as opposed to just saying "You're wrong"? I'm talking about giving a more direct rebuttal to what I've said.

Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

I've told you why you're wrong a dozen times in this discussion, and I'm not going to repeat myself.

No. The arguments you responded to dealt with the love triangle.

You've given no imput on the other arguments I provided like the character resisting Bloodbending or having a job which there was no indicator that he would be interested in.

Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

By your logic, his only non-Ass Pull possible job is "stay at home boyfriend" since you believe his only characterization at the end of the series is "Korra's boyfriend." Which is a bit silly in of itself. And again, he was wide open for doing whatever he likes. I personally think it's a perfectly logical progression to go from "defending the city from internal threats for free" to "defending the city from internal threats for money," especially since, like I said before, he does feel a deep-seeded need to protect people.

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Antiyonder: I don't have to provide an argument against because you haven't put up anything at all that resembles an argument for. You've done nothing but list your personal gripes about the character, none of which qualify him for any of the tropes you're trying to stick him with.

The reason I don't provide more detail is that by now it's self-evident that you have no interest in doing anything besides shoehorning in some negative trope on him because you hate the character.

Then I'll try one last time to explain my stance on the last two comments better. And as for your comment, Larkmarn, I will respond on my second point:

• Bloodbending is a technique made out to be a gamebreaker move (especially when the user can Bloodbender). The only established way to resist it prior to Endgame was being a stronger Bloodbender or an Avatar using Avatar State. If something so simple like distraction can weaken the Bloodbender, it should be established beforehand than having someone who at best is a glorified athlete (as opposed to a seasoned warrior or a demigod) do so without precedence.
  • Larkman: As for Iroh II, I find his skills plausible if only because he looks to be older and experienced, plus not being orphaned means having a better chance to train and hone any skills he has.

"And again, he was wide open for doing whatever he likes."

• Which was what exactly? And yeah, being Korra's love interest was the only thing we got from 5-12. At most 2-4 establishes him as a hardworking person who supported his only other family member. No hobbies or any established goals beyond that.

"I personally think it's a perfectly logical progression to go from "defending the city from internal threats for free" to "defending the city from internal threats for money," especially since, like I said before, he does feel a deep-seeded need to protect people."

• He wasn't defending the city due to some established need to help others in general (by others I mean complete strangers). He helped defend the city, because he was going along with Korra. And before that, his attention was divided more on his girlfriend and his brother. Now, if in the earlier episodes we saw Mako trying to protect other people (on say the streets for instance) from thugs, then him going into that career would feel like an extension of established traits. But the most we get is him helping out people, only on the behalf of someone he's close to (Korra).

Edited by 69.172.221.6 Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

You still never established him as a Creator's Pet. You just complained some more about the show. We've literally been through this entire debate before, it's documented on this page from last summer, and you've presented nothing to contradict that except more evidence for why he's The Scrappy (which he's covered by anyway.)

I'm also really not sure how him being a generic cop makes him some kind of anointed one. Just because Bolin isn't? Does the fact that maybe Bolin might not want to be a cop even factor in to this?

Edited by 69.172.221.6

I cannot think of where to begin with countering Antiyonder's arguments, mainly because as far as I can tell, they're based on some kind of bizarre logic that is unique to him.

Just because you can only think of him as "Korra's love interest" does not in any way at all come anywhere close to ever remotely meaning that he can't do something else with his life. That argument should be roundly and completely dismissed for being, well, nothing. It amounts to, "I, personally, think he should be relegated to a single dramatic role and nothing else."

Distraction is always going to degrade performance on something that requires concentration, and every single Bending discipline shown in the entirety of the whole show requires concentration. Again, the argument that you need to somehow set up that distracting someone can throw them off is, frankly, nothing.

You're trying to pigeonhole Mako into a role and persona just so that you have more fuel to bash him. Your arguments are, at best, supported only by premises that you are making up entirely.

I also completely fail to see how "being a cop" is Creator's Pet behavior at all. That's just... unrelated. It's not like being a beat cop is the most glamorous thing in the world.

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It's because Mako dating someone excludes him from ever having any other goals or desires, and means that he can't possibly devote any of his time and attention to anything else. He is Korra's boyfriend only, because males are incapable of holding jobs while they're romantically involved. Clearly.

Actually, it's because part of the fandom thought Bolin would inevitably become a metalbending cop because clearly since he's an Earthbender, he'll of course be a metalbender cop. So when it comes out in a preview that Mako became a non-metalbending cop and Bolin tried to stay an athelete (you know, things that are more in character for their personalities as established by the end of the first season), this apparently meant Mako was being given favoritism somehow.

Just like how Mako being able to briefly break out of being bloodbent was not actually used to prove to the viewer that it was possible with enough focus from the victim (and thus foreshadowing that Korra could do this as well), but Mako overshadowing Korra with the creator's worship of him and his awesomeness.

Mako saying "I love you" is not, you know, a message of support to someone experiencing their deepest emotional crisis and feeling of isolation. It's a supreme act of selfishness that you would only say to manipulate and control another human being!

Even being able to lightning bend to the level of blue-collar grunt labor is proof that Mako is an anointed character (as opposed to simply showing that a lot of people are capable of a very basic grasp of it.)

Edited by 69.172.221.4

RE the cop thing, a lot of people (myself included) got the impression that all cops in the city were metalbendenders and that Mako was going to be the first non-metalbender cop. I don't know if this is necessarily accurate- someone noted that the cop that chases Korra at the beginning is apparently a non-bender- but at least in the first season, it seems like the "elite cops" had been exclusively metalbenders up to that point and that Mako was being asked to join on that group.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

Interesting. I didn't realize people thought that. I just felt like the Metalbending Corps was one particular unit in the police department... but it's good to hear that there's at least... some rationalization other than "HE'S A COP! CREATORSPET!" even if I think it's still pretty flimsy.

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For what it's worth, I'd imagine that they can't rely exclusively on metalbenders, but obviously the show largely just showed the metalbending forces because most of the situations they were used for required it. Or possibly by Book 2, they've come to that realization now that there's technology designed specifically to combat metal benders, they need to diversify their police force and Mako signed on.

But even the entry on the page as it is now notes the MAIN reason people were mad was just because they wanted Bolin to be a cop instead.

Anyway, this is enough of the long, long, long derail. I think we can call this safely as Mako is still not a Creator's Pet as of the end of Book 1 and what we know of Book 2. His status as a Base Breaker and The Scrappy is well documented by now.

Edited by 69.172.221.8

I think it would be really cool to show different divisions with different specialties (my personal suggestions are firebenders who work as firefighters- partly a joke based on Literature/Fahrenheit451; also, a nonbender group that is a composite of the Kyoshi Warriors and the Dai Li).

" Or possibly by Book 2, they've come to that realization now that there's technology designed specifically to combat metal benders, they need to diversify their police force and Mako signed on."

That makes a lot of sense. Still, I think it is understandable that if the norm has been for cops to exclusively be metalbenders, then personality issues aside, you'd definitely expect Bolin, not Mako to be the cop in the family.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

If by purely bending? Sure. And I assume this is why the fans just assumed the storyline would happen, as it is the simplest (and least original) story arc for Bolin to go through.

Getting back to the point at hand, a Creator's Pet has to satisfy the following:

Hated by fans (The Scrappy) Loved (or worshipped) by the writers Put into big scenes for no reason (Character Focus) Talked up by the other characters (Character Shilling)

The question is whether or not Mako satisfies all of the above criteria.

1.) Hated by fans (The Scrappy)

This should be self-evident; Mako is already listed under The Scrappy, so this one checks out.

2.) Loved (or worshipped) by the writers

The seeming point of contention, this is essentially the reason given for the next two complaints, and there are several pieces of evidence that point to this being the case.

First, that Mako was given the name of a character the creators admired; in the Creator's Pet article, it specifically mentions such behavior as a primary reason driving force behind a Creator's attachment to an unliked character: "Sometimes, however, the creator(s) have become so attached to this character for whatever reason, whether because they see something of themselves in the character or the character reminds them of someone they were close to or the character represents something they admire, they..."

Furthermore, the Creators have not only gone through the trouble of attempting to explain Mako's actions ("he's a teenager"/"he's had a rough childhood") and address the hate he's received ("for all of you who still hate Mako"), but demeans people critical of Mako as either "angry shippers" or too young to understand ("Wait till you get to college and love 2 girls").

It seems pretty clear that Mako is loved by the Creators of the show considering just how far and how often they are willing to go out of their way to defend him both within the show and in real life. This point can't really be argued against, especially since it directly leads in to the next two points.

3.) Put into big scenes for no reason (Character Focus)

Mako was the one who joined Korra in the finale, against what was assumed to be Korra's final one-on-one opponent (i.e. what had been up till now presented as "the Avatar's duty," not "the Avatar and her boyfriend's duty").

Furthermore, saving Mako from being debent was what unlocked Korra's powers, not anything she learned in her training up until now, not her attempting to be more spritual and contacting her predecessors, it's saving Mako. Even if you play up the "love" angle, since saving her psudeo-father figure and Airbending mentor, Tenzin (and his family) had no effect on her acquiring airbending, does that mean that Korra simply doesn't love them enough?

In both the final battle against Amon, and in Korra unlocking her Airbending, Mako is never once alluded to being a necessary component for the battle until the point he is in them. In other words, he was put into big, important scenes for no reason. Another check.

4.) Talked up by the other characters (Character Shilling)

"I'm impressed. No one has ever gotten the better of me like that." —Amon

Amon has never complimented a bender skills before, and we were led to believe that he hated bending in general. Praising Mako's skills here is nothing more than Character Shilling.

"Beifong said if I keep up the good work I could be a detective soon." —mako

Season 2 example, aside from the issue of why Mako is a cop, not only had he caused property damage in his apprehension of the crooks in a way almost directly comparable to Korra when she first arrives in the city (something AVATAR Korra was arrested for), but there's also the fact that he's been on the force for, at most, 6 months. The fact that Mako is excelling unrealistically fast in his job to the point where Lin Beifong is able to completely do a 180 on her previous stance against reckless property damage is again, Character Shilling.

So Mako is once more, hated by the fans, loved by the creators, forced into big scenes and talked up by the other characters.

Mako, is a Creator's Pet.

Edited by 128.59.150.204

Hmm, let's see:

1. Yeah, no argument there, he's definitely The Scrappy.

2. I think its more that they don't get why he's hated so much (since he is basically a good guy), then that they love him. And they've gone beyond just Mako's behavior in commenting how a lot of the relationship stuff, while not placing the cast in the best light, was true to their own experiences.

3. I don't know about this one. Seems like just following precedent from the first series in that anyone on "Team Avatar" is going to be helping out in fight scenes- sort of a narrative convention I guess.

4. I actually do agree that Mako seems to be too clearly written to be a "cool guy" (and Bolin was too much of a loser in the first season)- which explains a lot of the hate. However, Amon is generally a very Faux Affably Evil character- doesn't seem that odd for him to engage in Baddie Flattery, especially given his true identity.

Not sure so much about the cop one- I'd wait and see how that plot plays out.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

I really think Mako fitting the Creator's Pet criteria is unarguable now.

Okay, so number 1 is accepted and number 4 is on hold. Fine.

Let's talk about #3 first.

3.) Put into big scenes for no reason (Character Focus)

"I don't know about this one. Seems like just following precedent from the first series in that anyone on "Team Avatar" is going to be helping out in fight scenes- sort of a narrative convention I guess."

We're talking about the FINAL BATTLE here, though. In At LA, the series was always presented as having a final 1-on-1 battle between Aang and the Fire Lord from the very begining. This battle was delivered upon, like in most media where the major protagonist dukes it out against the major antagonist.

However, in Lo K, the presentation is that Amon is a threat that Korra will have to eventually defeat on her own (again, Avatar's duty). That's not to say she can't have friends helping her (Aang's friends helped in other ways against other opponents, just like Bolin, Asami and Iroh did), just that the final battle was always going to be Korra vs Amon.

Shoving Mako in there gives him unnecessary Character Focus.

The other point is pretty much the same: The series presents the plot as Korra learning airbending and Korra defeating Amon, do you agree?

However, not only does Mako help her defeat Amon, Mako helps her learn Airbending too! The unnecessary Character Focus becomes agregious when you realize that Mako had nothing to do with Korra's airbending up until that point. Mako never helped her with Airbender movements (if anything, Bolin did the most work there), Mako never helped her with her spirituality or in contacting the past Avatars, yet he is somehow the key to unlocking her bending.

The argument given by the show, that Korra's bending was unlocked by love, is weak considering that love was never shown to be a requirement for Airbending, making all the training she did in the entire show worthless.

It also doesn't even explain why she doesn't unlock her Airbending when Tenzin and his family, the last Airbenders in the entire world, are about to be permanently debent. Wasn't Tenzin her mentor, guider and all-around psudeo-father figure in the story? Are we supposed to believe that she's clsoer to Mako when she and him barely have any moments when they aren't arguing or acting akward around each other?

The creators themseleves admit to thinking about putting the "Korra unlocking Airbending" scene earlier (likely when Tenzin and his family were kidnapped) but decided that this would be better for whatever reason (more Mako?).

I think Mako's unnecessary addition in the finale as the key to culminaton of the entire plot's story is more than worth the title of Character Focus, don't you?

As for #2

2.)Loved (or worshipped) by the writers

"I think its more that they don't get why he's hated so much (since he is basically a good guy), then that they love him."

From the Creator's Pet page:

"Sometimes, however, the creator(s) have become so attached to this character for whatever reason, whether because they see something of themselves in the character or the character reminds them of someone they were close to or the character represents something they admire, that they decide to increasingly focus on him, magnifying the importance of his role, and having the other characters talk about how awesome he is, in painful ignorance of — or sometimes in spite of — the fans' obvious hatred."—Creator's Pet

If you don't think Mako qualifies as being "loved" by the Creators of the show (though you agree he was written from the beginning to be a "cool guy" while Bolin was written to be a "loser") then please give an example that better coincides with that excerpt from the Creator's Pet page and explain where mako falls short, cuz as far as I can see, he's a prefect fit.

As for this: "And they've gone beyond just Mako's behavior in commenting how a lot of the relationship stuff, while not placing the cast in the best light, was true to their own experiences."

I would just like to point out, in a complete aside from proving Mako to be a Creator's Pet, that it was not that Mako's actions are unrealistic; liking 2 girls, attempting to hide it from the other girl, stringing both girls along, this all happens in real life.

What doesn't happen in real life is the complete lack of consequence or comeuppance once the lies are discovered. Asami breaks it off with Mako specifically only after he's sure he wants to be with Korra (despite him continuing to string Asami along), who luckily enough, has yet to get over him, didn't mind waiting and is completely happy to get together with him immediately afterwards. Even then, Asami isn't even a bitch about it (she has more than full rights to be), choosing to remain friends rather than leaving forever, or getting mad or upset. And this is somebody for whom she betrayed her only living relative, in the process giving up everything she ever had and was accustomed to. Does any of the above sound like real life experiences to you?

What's unrealistic is how the situation Mako is in never lends itself to calling him out on his flaws, which in turn never leads to a point of growth. Instead, the story almost bends itself backwards to make sure things turn out okay for him in the end. Pretty much par for the course for a Creator's Pet though.

Edited by 128.59.150.204

;;reads this entire thread, Face Palm;; Ok, Asami didn't betray Hiroshi in the slightest, Hiroshi betrayed HER; not only was he in cahoots with a terrorist organization, he had tried to KILL her and her friends on multiple occasions. I can't see anything Asami did regarding him as betrayal at all; actually, I think she was a bit too lenient with him. She didn't cut ties with him for Mako, she cut ties because Hiroshi had been Jumping Off the Slippery Slope.

Also, Asami didn't break it off with Mako when she did because she saw he was ready to go for Korra; as I remember, he and Korra were about to embark on the mission to confront Amon, and there was a good chance neither one would come back alive, so it would make sense that she'd want to ensure that everything between she and Mako was resolved. Would anyone want the (possibly) last thing they ever said to someone to be something angry or bitchy? I know I wouldn't. On the subject of Korra, I think trying to retake the city from a crazy bloodbender ranked higher on her priority list than hooking up with the guy who had JUST been through a breakup.

So, no, Mako STILL doesn't fit the criteria as a Creator's Pet, and it is frankly astounding how the facts from the show are being twisted so far out of context to make him look bad. Am I arguing he's a saint? No. But trying to negate a Crowning Momentof Awesome for Korra (accessing airbending) because she did it for Mako is nuts. Character Focus? When Korra has quite literally just been Mind Raped and doesn't want to see it happen to anyone else? If it had been used earlier there'd be no real impact. They'd basically would have had to write a completely different ending if she'd unlocked airbending when Tenzin and the kids were kidnapped. Without having lost all her other bending she'd have Curb Stomped Amon, and we'd have never gotten the Murder-Suicide, which quite frankly took my breath away. Aang would go into the Avatar state when Katara was threatened. Is that Character Focus now? Because I honestly don't see a difference.

Edited by 72.241.173.4

I don't think you've read my post clearly, blackflamerose.

First thing, whether Asami betrayed Hiroshi or vice versa is completely irrelevant to the point I was making at the time, which itself was, as I put it: "in a complete aside from proving Mako to be a Creator's Pet." Similarily, the situation with Mako and Asami, while incredibly misrepresented in your post, also has little to do with Mako being a Creator's Pet.

That's first.

Now, let's get on to your attempt to say that he isn't a Creator's Pet (i.e. let's get back tot he point of this conversation).

Your "argument" if it could even be called that was on the point of Mako's Character's Focus. I'll say it again, condense the plot of the season into one sentence, and you get that the story is about Korra fulfilling her duty as the Avatar by learning airbending and bringing balance to the world by defeating Amon. It's pretty much in the title: Avatar Legend of Korra.

Now, the story sets up these two goals as the centerpiece of the story, but the problem is that it shoehorns Mako as a key component of both of these quests at the last minute. If Mako had greater significance to the plot and there was a specific plot based reason that Mako should be the key component of the show's entire premise, then this wouldn't be Character Focus. However, his only ties to the plot are that he's a bender, and that he's the Avatar's boyfriend. He is not presented as necessary to Korra attaining Airbending or to Korra defeating Amon, yet he happens to be just that for no good reason i.e Character Focus.

You brought up the issue of Katara having Character Focus; while I could no doubt endlessly debate the extents to whether or not Katara recieves "unnecessary" Character Focus, A.) It doesn't matter if she has Character Focus or not, since to be a Creator's Pet you need to have all 4 problems, and as far as I know she isn't a Scrappy, and the narrative (i.e. the Creator) calls her out on her bullshit.

Then there's B.) Whether or not Katara has Character Focus, or is even a Creator's Pet herself, has absolutely nothing to do with Mako being a Creator's Pet.

Let me tell you what you can do though. Look through the Creator's Pet page for Western Animation. Find a single character on that list who fits the bill more than Mako does, and then tell me where Mako falls short.

Because if anything, Mako fits the page a lot better than most of the examples currently listed.

Edited by 128.59.150.204

...Ok, no need to get condescending. Let me ask you this, if Mako had not been there when Korra lost her bending, what would have happened? As shown, she unlocks airbending when Mako is about to lose his. If he hadn't been there? Given the characterization of Korra to that point? I think she would have given up. She'd have completely failed as the Avatar(she thinks) and now the Equalists had nothing stopping them, so why bother? At that point, she could not access the Avatar state or airbending, and there's no way she'd be in the proper state of mind for the Aang ex Machina of the ending. Mako is crucial to the mission of stopping Amon because he gives Korra motivation to keep going after she loses her bending. Also, I'd always seen them infiltrating the base as a callback/Book Ends to "The Revelation". Korra first became aware of Amon and his debending while infiltrating the Equalists with Mako, so she ends it while infiltrating the Equalists with Mako. So, actually, Mako is absolutely necessary to both attaining airbending and defeating Amon, no shoehorning required, and as such he fails criterium #3.

Mako also has the distinction of being the "Avatar's love interest" and as such plays the exact same role Katara did in Last Airbender. Hence why I brought her up in my last post. This is nothing new or unusual. Aang goes into Avatar state for Katara, Korra unlocks airbending for Mako.

And just to humor you, I checked the Creator's Pet page. Lisa Simpson fits pretty much perfectly. Also both Kai Leng and Diana Allers from Mass Effect 3. Mako is nowhere NEAR as obnoxious as any of them.

Edited by 72.241.173.4

"Mako is crucial to the mission of stopping Amon because he gives Korra motivation to keep going after she loses her bending."

...I'm not sure if there's a more deliate way to put this, but THIS. IS. THE. PROBLEM.

The writers created a scenario where Mako was crucial to the resolution of the plot without giving him the necessary relevance prior to that. This is practically the definition of the term Character Focus.

Mako has no specific beef with Amon that every other bender wouldn't have, and he's never once helped or even been a part of Korra's airbending training throughout the series. Shoving him into the very climax of both arcs as a necessary component is ridiculous Character Focus when there's no reason he, Mako, had to go there and not say, Bolin or Asami. Hell, Asami being a non-bender and all has more of a right to face and repudiate Amon then Mako does, because she actually has ties to the nonbender-vs-bender storyline.

Again, I'm not saying that Mako wasn't needed in that fight, I'm saying that he shouldn't have been needed in that fight, at least not with the way the series is presented (The Avatar filling her duty; Legend of the Avatar, not Legend of the Avatar and her Boyfriend).

Now, concerning Lisa Simpson (I haven't played Mass Effect), I'm not sure if you knew this, but being obnoxious is not a requirement for being a Creator's Pet. As it is now, Lisa gets remarkably little screentime, and recent episodes of her often have her failing miserably or making things worse. She may have started out as a Creator's Pet, but the beauty of having multiple writers for different episodes is that such a thing rarely lasts.

Looking at other characters on the page, most of them are there simply from getting too muh screentime while being a Karma Houdini. This was enough for characters like Owen and Sam from TDI & Danny Phantom to be put on the list.

Does Mako not get too much screentime,and is he not also a huge Karma Houdini? If you believe otherwise, I would like you to read this fan's post analyzing Episode 9 alone:

http://boxlunches.tumblr.com/post/24876437494/disclaimer-last-weeks-episode-was-pretty-awesome-in

All I'm seeing is a lot of people that are still trying to Square Peg Round Trope this guy because they still really hate a fictional character.

And pointing out crappy examples of Creator's Pet on the Creator's Pet page doesn't make Mako a good example - it makes those crappy examples that need to be removed.

Your entire argument boils down to "I don't like this character and because he is still part of the show in spite of me not liking him, I declare him a Creator's Pet." You're rehasing arguments we've already had, bringing up points we've already discussed to death, and like the rest of the people still trying to mash this into the page by sheer force of will, inventing plot points that don't happen or ignoring scenes where the things you complain about are explicitly being countered.

EDIT: Oh holy hell, is the Creator's Pet page really that out of hand again? I just looked at both the entries being used as "proof" that Mako belongs there and they were terrible. I've gone back and pulled them accordingly.

Edited by 69.172.221.2

@Rebochan: I just think it's hilarious that my point of Mako being crucial to the climax was begrudgingly agreed with, but with the caveat of "but, but he shouldn't have been!" Again, I always read that fight and the infiltration in "The Revelation" as Book Ends. An example of Good Writing is now considered bad because That One Character is in it? Yeah, I can't take this thread seriously.

All right, I have some more time to dissect this one last time.

1. The Scrappy. Undisputed, thanks.
2. Loved by the creators. Nope, still hasn't been established. When you stop taking their comments out of context instead of the little chunks we're getting here to try and make him some kind of god, all you get is the creators establishing that they felt a storyline was misinterpreted. Seeing how in the show itself, Mako's girlfriend does call out his attitude and is presented as correct, you cannot also claim that he's a Karma Houdini simply because he broke up with his girlfriend he'd been dating all of a month or so and successfully started a relationship with the person he was actually interested in. And admitted and apologized to her. Not to mention that the same damn commentary also acknowledged their awareness of the character's controversy.
3. Nope, that's still not Character Focus. Mako is not in a scene for "no reason" at any point of this show. Claiming that he is being written to be important is not "Character Focus" either - otherwise literally any character you don't like that is important to a storyline is getting "Character Focus." Pointing out that the show could have been massively rewritten to remove him is rather silly, and your link to a fan editorial complaining about how they don't like Mako is still not establishing Character Focus.
4. Your Character Shilling is laughable at best. Character Shilling is when secondary characters start overstating or overselling a character who clearly is not actually living up to what they are saying - but the story wants us to think they are. Mako has just done something that Amon did not believe possible. He has earned a sentence of acknowledgement, yes? Furthermore, as I already said further up, it's a far less impressive feat when Korra does it too. The entire point of that scene wasn't "Mako is so cool he broke Amon's bloodbending!" It was "Someone who focuses hard enough can break out of blood bending with or without the Avatar state." Your complaining that that person is Mako does not count - we already know you hate his guts, that's not this trope. Furthermore, Mako stating that he is doing well at work is an estimation of his own abilities. That's not Character Shilling and given what we just saw before the scene, he managed to capture the criminals with a minimal amount of unnecessary property damage. We can reasonably assume that the statement he has made about himself is backed up by the plot. And your complaint about Lin being out of character in that front doesn't hold water either - Lin arrested Korra for being an armed, reckless vigilant that tore up a street without any authority but her own. Mako was a licensed officer of the law arresting someone using bending - which, I hate to break it to you, is what the Metalbenders are already doing.

Edited by 69.172.221.2

One thing I was also going to add is that you can't really compare Lin's attitude toward Korra in the first episode with Lin's attitude further down the line (outside of the fact that as you mention, in that instance, Mako was official law enforcement).

Korra was (and honestly still kind of is) pretty obnoxious in her introduction to Lin and Lin also had that bad blood with Tenzin. Later on, Lin softens a bit and never really had bad blood toward the rest of the Krew (just Korra and Tenzin), so it isn't that surprising Lin would respond positively toward Mako.

Also, I'm not sure if the show will ever address this (I'd like them too, although it would probably make people hate Mako even more), but I think we are to infer that in his past, Mako was involved in a lot of fighting on the street and likely some violent criminal activity. That's why he has combat skills and the more sheltered Bolin doesn't. I mean it was addressed above how Mako's lightning-bending is nothing special in universe, but to the extent he is a good fighter, it is understandable based on his backstory.

And it isn't just Mako who is given backstotry to make him a great fighter (because the narrative demands it). Asami also happens to be a very skilled fighter thanks to her paranoid father encouraging her to learn self-defense.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

The problem with calling Mako a Creator's Pet is very much criterion #3. I'm not at all going to deny that he's not a particularly well-written character or that the creators don't like him. That being said, he has always been presented as the #2 character (or maybe #3 after Tenzin) in the entire show. While we can spend all day complaining about his romance with Korra being poorly-handled, the love triangles taking up too much time, and Bolin getting the short end of the character development stick, it won't change that Mako's relationship with Korra was always presented as one of the most important parts of the show.

Given:

• Mako has always been one of the three characters with the most focus;
• Mako and Korra's relationship has always been presented as a focus of the show; and
• There was never a requirement that Korra's fight against Amon be a "solo round";

it is entirely natural for his relationship with Korra to play a role in the final confrontation. Had the relationship been better-written, we wouldn't have had a problem with him being there. His role in the plot does not exceed what would be appropriate with what the writers had always been trying to do with the character, and while we can fault them for whiffing on the quality of the setup, we can't deny that the setup was always there.

That's what I think the crux of the 3rd criterion is: if this character were better-written (i.e. not The Scrappy) would they still be considered to have ended up in scenes where they don't belong? In this case, no. The setup was all there, and while it was also always presented that Korra would have to face Amon—it's a key part of her character growth and of her role as the protagonist—it was never presented that there must be no other characters in the scene (see also: the Lieutenant).

I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.

@Rebochan, The word "hate" seems to get thrown around a lot here, and I think that's rather unkind. People who criticize a character don't necessarily hate the character.

I for one, don't "hate" Mako, I just don't care for him. The person who I linked to didn't "hate" Mako, and actually loved the series. People can critic without hating a character.

That said, rather than going through your list and responding point for point on what can be a very subjective matter, I'm going to ask you to come up with a better example than Mako on the Creator's Pet Western Animation Page. Because most of what I see there is more than enough to put Mako on the list.

If you want to nuke the page as a list of bad examples, so be it, but they all have multiple things in common with Mako to the point where I can replace a few names and have things fit.

"Taffy the babysitter from Rugrats was praised by all the characters in the show, but not so much love from the fans as she clearly existed so Amanda Bynes could star in another Nickelodeon show."

Mako the firebender from Lo K was praised by all the characters in the show, but not so much love from the fans as he clearly existed as homage to late voice actor Mako Iwatsu.

Are you going to remove that one as well?

Now, @ Ironeye

I would disagree with your listed givens.

1.)"Mako has always been one of the three characters with the most focus;"

Mako was introduced at the same time as Bolin. Can you honestly tell me you saw from the beginning that he would get so much more focus than Bolin did?

Can you honestly tell me that the show presented him early on as an important element to the main goals of Korra learning airbending and defeating Amon?

Let's focus on airbending specifically, we are told that Korra needs to learn airbending, who is that is supposed to teach her? Mako? No, Tenzin.

Tenzin tries to instruct her on airbending movements, but she learns better from pro-bending. Is it Mako who shows her the importance of avoidance in combat? No, Bolin.

Tenzin instructs Korra to become more spiritual in an attempt to contact Aang. Does Mako help her do this in any way? No, she manages to contact Aang completely on her own when trapped in the metal box.

So tell me, how does Mako being the key to Korra unlocking her airbending seem like a natural progression of events?

Korra unlocking airbending on her own through connecting with her own spirituality would be a natural progression of events, since she did it before.

Korra unlocking airbending through Tenzin's help would be a natural progression of events since she's worked with Tenzin before.

Korra unlocking airbending through advice from Bolin would be a natural progression of events since she's recieved important advice from him before.

Korra unlocking airbending because Mako is in trouble is not a natural progression of events, since there were many times he and the people close to her were in trouble without her unlocking airbending (vs the mechas for one, where everybody she cares about is lying beaten on the floor to be electrocuted or worse).

The fact that Mako's last minute plot importance is not a natural progression of events makes it an example of Character Focus.

2.) "Mako and Korra's relationship has always been presented as a focus of the show;"

But it was not preseneted as the plot the story sets up originally. What we learn from Episode 1 is that

A.) Korra needs to learn airbending to become a fully realized Avatar, which is the Avatar's Duty to become; and

B.) Republic City is unbalanced, and it's the Avatar's duty to bring balance to the world.

These are the two reasons why Korra is even in Republic City in the first place. Notice that "finding a boyfriend" is not listed as a reason and therefore not part of the overarching plot that the story is trying to resolve.

That Mako is shoehorned into the resolution of these two things that were protrayed as the "Avatar's Duty" is an example of Character Focus.

3.)"There was never a requirement that Korra's fight against Amon be a "solo round";"

Let me share with you an excerpt from the previous series, taken from the transcript of "Day of Black Sun Part 2"

Zuko: But I've come to an even more important decision. [Closes eyes and momentarily pauses.] I'm gonna join the Avatar and I'm going to help him defeat you.

Ozai:[Smugly.] Really? Since you're a full-blown traitor now and you want me gone, why wait? I'm powerless. You've got your swords. Why don't you just do it now?

Zuko: Because I know my own destiny. Taking you down is the Avatar's destiny. [Puts his swords away.]

One of the key themes in both At LA and Lo K is the issue of the Avatar's destiny and the Avatar's Duty. The things specified as such are taken to mean things that have to do alone.

You can say that this was from another series, but Korra puts emphasis on her duty as the Avatar all the time (coming to Republic City, saving those people "You're our Avatar too", even in Season 2 with "the south is spiritually unbalanced, yada yada yada").

These are all things that are taken to mean that Korra will be handling the issue in a one on one combat. Note that this does not mean that her friends will stand around and do nothing, but that her friends will play important roles elsewhere in the story, such as how the G Aang may not have helped fight Ozai (the Avatar's Duty), but the jobs they did were of equal importance in taking him down.

The requirement that Amon vs. Korra would be a 1-v-1 was set up since the first episode, and is a natural progression of events.

Interesting to note, you can argue that Korra needing friends and people to help her was an important story element at one point, but in that case she should have brought all of her friends to better hit the message of needing help, instead of just her boyfriend.

Mako being the Scrappy or terribly written actually has very little to do with the fact that if the story followed a natural progression of events, he wouldn't be the necessary component in the overarching plot that was presented as strictly Korra's, the Avatar's, Duty.

Avatar's Duty =/= Avatar & her Boyfriend's Duty

Nobody, including the better written characters, should be involved with the Avatar's Duty, save the Avatar herself.

Edited by 128.59.149.20

No, you cannot make up a bunch of rules for the show out of wholecloth and say that makes him a creator's pet.

The synopsis of the first episode does not preclude other plot threads from having importance. The very idea of this even being a point of evidence is completely ridiculous.

The requirement that Amon vs. Korra would be a 1-v-1 was set up since the first episode, and is a natural progression of events.

This is completely made up by you, and never once was a "requirement" anywhere else.

Nobody, including the better written characters, should be involved with the Avatar's Duty, save the Avatar herself.

That sentence is completely and utterly ridiculous, and only shows that you are letting this vendetta against Mako cloud your entire understanding about the entirety of both shows. Both shows were as much about the Avatar and their relationships as they were about the Avatar's duty.

Every post you make only makes it more and more clear that you are more interested in having Mako listed under a shoehorned negative trope than you are about the actual tropes in the show. You've moved on, now, to completely making things up as supposed rules for the series that have never once been indicated in any fashion to be in play.

Ozai had to be defeated by the Avatar because of politics more than anything else. Ozai was the rightful leader of the Fire Nation, which was on the eve of winning a century-long war. If he were suddenly supplanted by his son or brother, it would be seen as usurping and they wouldn't be seen as the rightful leader. Iroh spells that out explicitly when Zuko asks if he could defeat Ozai. That's a very different situation than defeating Amon. Pretty sure that Korra would've been fine with Tarrlok taking Amon down. Korra's duty was stopping the Equalists first and foremost, using whatever means she deemed fit (including allies). Not winning a 1v1 fight with Amon. That comes from absolutely nowhere. It would've been quite stupid to let him win simply for the sake of having a 1v1 fight. Hell, there was an entire episode about how that was a stupid idea and that she should accept other people's help and NOT try to take him on her own ("The Voice In The Night").

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ENOUGH. The presence of a deuteragonist in a scene does not make said deuteragonist a Creator's Pet. We're putting our foot down on this one.

"Yup. That tasted purple."

Why exactly is Mako a Deuteragonist when compared to say, Bolin or Asami? Aside from the very final battle itself (i.e. the point of contention), he's done essentially everything with the group.

He doesn't have a character arc like Korra, we aren't shown much of him outside of which chick he wants to bang.

Mako is a deuteragonist only in the sense of relationships and nothing more; when it comes to Amon he has no special case in the fight against Amon that other characters don't have (if anything Asami is more of a deuteragonist in that regards), and when it comes to Korra's airbending he offers nothing to that plot thread whatsoever (that honor belongs to Tenzin). So how exactly is he a deuteragonist deserving of more character focus in the resolution of those plot threads then Asami or Bolin or even Tenzin?

Let me reiterate, I don't hate the character. I just think a lot of people are letting their love of him cloud them from what appears to be an obvious truth. Everything I say seems to get denigerated into mindless "hate" when I honestly don't care much for him either way. Furthermore I have not attacked people's opinions like others are attacking mine; the most you could argue I said negatively was that blackflamerose did not fully read my post.

I do not believe I have spoken out of turn in any way and I believe that most of what is listed under the Creator's Pet page can easily be applied to Mako almost word for word.

Edited by 128.59.147.77

You can't in one breath complain about the fact he had more focus than Bolin, and then in the next claim that he didn't have any more focus than the rest of the group. That's exceedingly inconsistent.

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Others have responded better than I can but a few thoughts:

I think to some degree Mako may be the deuteragonist because of his relationship with Korra.

Like I really do think that there was sort of bad writing- its like LOK was following in the footsteps of ATLA in having the Avatar assisted by a team and to some extent it felt less organic. Because Mako was the Avatar's boyfriend, it probably got him more of an important combat role.

Mako and Bolin started out in the same position, but because the creators chose to make Mako the romantic interest and emphasized Bolin's role as a Butt-Monkey, Mako got to be the one fighting Amon.

If Bolin had been received that development instead, we'd probably have threads here about how Bolin is a Creator's Pet (well, maybe not). You can of course complain that he and not Bolin is the deuteragonist (many do for good and not so good reasons), but since Mako is the deuteragonist, he does the stuff expected of that role.

I'm also going to put it out there that you have to take into account that this series was originally going to be an OVA before it was renewed. Character Development definitely suffered all around, and you can see some efforts to fix things in the second season. Basically, the creators put the show out there and then after that received fan reaction. If Mako was a Creator's Pet, you'd have fans hating him and the creators continuing to promote him season after season.

Also, I forget when that fight with Amon happens (was it before or after The Reveal about Amon's powers?). In any case though, I think that was less to show Mako as powerful and more about showing the limits of Amon's powers (so that it would be less of an Ass Pull that Korra could defeat him/restore others' bending).

Edited by 167.165.222.32 Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

@ Larkman, there's a difference between "focus" and "relevance."

If there wasn't, the Romantic Plot Tumor trope wouldn't exist.

That said, Mako was completely irrelevant to Korra learning how to airbend, up until he became the very reason she could finally airbend. That is the crux of what I'm trying to point out.

A better explanation of the two brothers would be that they started off with the same amount of relevance (part of the G Aang, potential love interests), but Mako simply ended up with much more Character Focus, which led to his seemingly-out-of-nowhere plot relevance at literally the last minute.

EDIT: Actually, I think the way Hodor puts it is best.

"Mako and Bolin started out in the same position, but because the creators chose to make Mako the romantic interest and emphasized Bolin's role as a Butt Monkey, Mako got to be the one fighting Amon."

Edited by 128.59.150.228

"Larkman, there's a difference between "focus" and "relevance."

One that you're continuing to ignore in spite of two different moderators coming in here to kill this.

You can complain that you don't like Mako. You can complain that you don't like how he was used in the story. There is a perfectly good forum thread where I'm sure you'll find good company.

We've more than established that Mako is not a Creator's Pet, he is not getting Character Focus, he is not getting Character Shilling, and frankly, its even debatable if he's "loved" by the creators to some unreasonable extent.

Which is still not evidence that he is a Creator's Pet. The mods have put their foot down on this. Twice. Let it be.

I'm not complaining about not liking Mako. My feelings regarding him are not in my posts whatsoever.

But rather than arguing incessantly, if you don't think Mako is a Creator's Pet, then explain to me who on the Creator's Pet list is a Creator's Pet, why they are Creator's Pets and why Mako lacks that criteria.

This is the third time I've asked you to do that, Rebochan.

Until then, I'll continue to argue that Mako fits the criteria by which all of the other Creator's Pet examples are judged.

Speaking of which, aside from Mako's last minute plot relevance, his actions in Episode 9 when Korra is missing is actually another clear example of Character Focus.

Other people have gone into depth on this episode, including the person i linked to earlier, but a small summary of the problems is that Mako is the only person who reacts strongly to Korra being gone, not Bolin, who got drunk off noodles for her maybe a week ago, not Lin, who had saved her previously and was steadily building up a begrudging respect for her, not even Tenzin, her replacement father figure, the man whose arms she cried into, and the son of her past life. Why is Mako so much more concerned then they are?

Nobody says a word when Mako is about to burn of the innocent Equalist's face; not Bolin and Asami, both of whom lost a parent to a firebender (a really good reason Mako should be stopping himself, actually), not Lin, a police officer with a strong moral code, and not even Tenzin, who is a vegetarian who is taught that all life is sacred by the past Avatar, the dude who spared crazy genocidal maniac Ozai. Mako even brags about this moment to Korra as being the moment when he realized that he loved her!

This is a case of Mako's Character Focus drowning out the other characters. It's literally Spotlight-Stealing Squad, which occurs as a result of too much Character Focus.

The same thing even happens again when Mako must be the one to carry Korra to "give her space" and in doing so pushes away Asami, his girlfriend, Bolin, his "supposedly" love-sick brother, Lin, a police officer who would no doubt have some basic emergency medical care, and Tenzin, her psudo father figure.

Again, all the other non-Mako characters are Out of Focus for Mako's big moment, to the point of Character Derailment. You have to admit, that in this episode at least, Mako had too much Character Focus (not that too much is the criteria for a Creator's Pet, simply having Character Focus at all is the basic criteria according to the trope page).

As for Character Shilling,

From the panel at SDCC: "These are Mako's basic proportions... He's a beautiful man..." From the official site at nick: "A Firebender with a serious side, the handsome and brooding Mako..." From the press release: "Tall, lean, and handsome, Mako is..." From Jinorra in-universe Episode: "Oooh, he's cute. Korra, is that the handsome firebender boy that drives you crazy?"

Add in more Jinorra "dreamy" quotes and a bunch of Korra's insubstantial "You're incredible" quotes, sprinkle in a dash of Amon quotes and I seriously doubt that the case can be made that Mako experiences no Character Shilling.

Interesting to note, is that no other character are simply "known" to be beautiful and gorgeous the way Mako is. Not even Asami has her bio call her beautiful! If this isn't Character Shilling of the highest order, I don't really know what is.

Then add to the fact of the matter that is the Creators who are forcing the idea of Mako's beauty down everyone's throats and I highly doubt that the case can be made that they don't love him more than the others, especially given that his name and character is specifically an homage to a beloved voice actor, one of the very warning signs for a Creator's Pet!

So once more, Rebochan, the moderators and everyone else, if Mako doesn't deserve to be listed as a Creator's Pet, who exactly on the page does, and why them and not Mako? Answer that question and that'll be the last you hear from me.

Please try to respond in a way that does not denigriate my post into irrational "hate" or "bias" as I believe all the arguments I've made have been coherent and all of my posts polite. I do not call other people's opinons stupid or ridiculous and I would appreciate the same common courtesy.

Edited by 128.59.150.228

... who says there HAS to be a Creator's Pet? That makes no sense.

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Um...what? Can you quote the part where I said that?

Well, in regard to the threatned face burning, I personally do find that pretty distasteful and is one reason I can't really shake the idea that because of ideological reasons, the creators consider the Equalists worse/more deserving of abuse than the Fire Nation even though their actions aren't as bad. And I agree that scene was not particularly well written in general.

Not so much in agreement RE the comment on Mako's looks. I definitely took away the impression that Asami was supposed to be quite attractive in universe, and while its largely an Informed Ability, even with Bolin you get a bit of that. I'll let someone else address this one.

Edit- Maybe I should delete this as it is encouraging further needless discussion...

Edited by 167.165.222.32 Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

Dude. When the mods say enough, they mean enough. That means stop with the long diatribes where you ask one of us to do something utterly irrelevant, and then continue on for a page and a half on things that only prove that Mako is, shockingly, one of the lead characters.

Nobody here is going to go through the entirety of the Creator's Pet page just because you can't let this go. It is an entirely unreasonable request that has no bearing at all on this instance. It's like telling a cop, "I won't pay the ticket until you explain why you didn't pull over everyone else."

I'm not asking you to go through the entire page. Pick one at random and explain why that person is a Creator's pet and Mako, by the same criterion, is not.

Ok, here's two that seem like a good comparison:

First, under Live Action Tv, there's Neelix from Star Trek: Voyager- the entry notes that when audiences complained about him, the creators responded by increasing his screen time. Contrast to Mako who has his screen time/presence decreased in the second season.

Also, I think any/all of the Star Wars examples under Literature show what it is really like when a minor character is made overpowered- like imagine if for instance Mako was the only lightning bender around and was (imaginary writer description) "a better martial artist than Zuko and a shrewder planner than Iroh (I)".

Edited by 216.99.32.43 Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

Baroxio, shut up about the character hate, or you'll lose wiki editing privileges. This is your first and final official warning.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

@Hodor, thank you for the example, and while I think much can be said on how Mako compares to the characters you listed, it seems I'm being forced to no longer respond.

One more thing though, @Fighteer

What "character hate" are you talking about? Is wanting somebody to be listed under a particular trope "character hate"? Which of my posts can be described as "hateful"?

If wanting to put a Character on the Creator's Pet page counts as character hate to the point where said person should lose editing privileges, then why do we even have an example page in the first place?

More to the point, there is no "hate" in anything that I write and I find it rather insulting for you to denigrate my posts as such.

That said, since this is my final warning, I'll stop bumping the issue, but let it be known that my opinion, however worthless it may be to you, is not to be mistaken as "hate."

Peace.

Edited by 128.59.150.228

It's not "wanting someone to be listed under a particular trope." It's "keeping up the argument once it's become clear that the character does not fit, up to and including making up arbitrary rules for the series that do not exist for the purpose of saying said character broke them."

Admittedly, it's also partly because the people arguing this before you very clearly did hate the character, so you're catching some runoff from that.

Okay, it's been a while, but I apologize for starting all this. It got us nowhere.

I will forever think of Mako in Books 1 and 2 as the Creator's Pet, but to his credit, he was rescued from that heap in Books 3 and 4.

While I still maintain my opinion (about the show) even to this day, I do concede to being wrong to how out of proportions I took it and other opinions on the page, and apologize & regret the lack of civility in expressing it.

But regardless of my opinion, this is my last post on the matter and I don't see myself posting on the page in the future as I'd only risk pissing everyone off further.

Edited by Antiyonder Phoebe and Her Unicorn thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16104243270A34144300

• As I said when I first deleted these examples, the problem with all of them is that they assume the Chous are good people who run a just and fair society, which isn't completely shown to be the case. The Chous never call Wan out on stealing food from the general populace, despite what the example claims. The only mentioned food issue is that the Chous apparently hoard food, and hell, at one point the Chou elder refers to Wan's gang as a group of "filthy peasants", suggesting classism on the part of the family. Not saying there aren't any possible shades of grey here, just that it's too ambiguous to make any judgements on whether or not anyone here's a designated anything.
• Wan was tragically misinformed when he decided to free Vaatu, and dedicated the rest of his life to fixing that mistake and all his others. And frankly, it's unfair to judge his Avatar career solely on the tiny part we see of it, when a key focus of this show is the title character learning how to become a better Avatar. The same goes for resenting Wan for not completely stopping conflict, when it's pointed out in season four that no-one will ever be able to do this completely.

Other than the Chous, which is sufficiently covered under Designated Villain, this is stuff the narrative acknowledges he messed up in. Not unintentional = not this trope.

Regarding the point about the Chous, you have a point, but I'd like to rewrite it as follows:

• While they aren’t exactly nice, the Chous are presented as oppressors when they punish Wan for trying to steal their food.

As I said earlier, there's no mention of a food scarcity in the city for the Chous to try and prevent.

What fact are we talking about, if this is a subjective reaction of the fans in advance? Not to mention that it seems that everyone agrees that the show was so subtle in this that without Word of God and the latest series, it was all considered something on the verge of Les Yay.

So, if I agree on the fourth season, I can not agree with the fact that Ship Tease in the third was obviously intentional. In any case, if it is in tropes, then is it possible to rewrite the example as Broken Base or Pandering to the Base, for example?

PS I am even afraid to write about other tropes, because they can also be instantly deleted as "not corresponding to the only true opinion."

ShipTease.The Legend Of Korra demonstrates that there was a ton of tease and the outcome makes it abundantly clear that it was intentional. Even if you think that maybe the S3 ship teases weren't intentional, there's no chance the S4 weren't. So you've got a season of foreshadowing.

And yes, part of the definition of Ass Pull is that it has to come from nowhere. Otherwise it becomes (even more) "Complaining About Plot Developments You Don't Like."

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Firstly, Word of God itself recognizes that they solved everything at the last minute, and that they even needed to redraw the final scene in a more romantic manner. Second, do you deny that Ass Pull can only work for part of the audience? Do you think that something can determine this trope as an obvious official fact?

One of my opponents has even refused to answer the trivial question "do you admit that some fans are of this opinion?", Who is next?

If Korra and Asami hadn't gotten together despite all the teasing, it could be Les Yay as a subjective trope. Since there was a lot of foreshadowing and small moments, it wasn't one that came out of no where. Look at season 1, Korra and Mako getting together had scenes of foreshadowing such as Mako and Bolin talking about Korra, Kora getting flustered about him due to the Airbending kids. The Ship Tease they had was more blatant yes but it was still filled with subtle ones, such as how Mako about to have his bending removed was enough to make Korra learn Airbending.

I say that because while the hints weren't in your face and blatant, they were there. Now had Korra and Asami shared a conversation in Season 3 with a small Ship Tease, then in Season 4 got together with no small moments, it would be somewhat of an Ass Pull. However in this case there was plenty of small moments.

^ The Laconic description of Ass Pull reads; "When an author invokes a new plot twist without properly foreshadowing it." That is subjective, there's no denial of it. However there are plenty of examples that show there were Ship Tease for the two that properly set it up for the end. The issue isn't that it is subjective or facts or what not, the issue is that, by precedent and the laconic, there is evidence of the ship, and it cannot be an Ass Pull.

Edited by keyblade333 Muramasa got.

^^ To put it bluntly, their opinion is wrong. YMMV items still have definitions, and this simply doesn't fit the definition here.

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Good. If I rewrite it as Broken Base as a whole, incidentally adding Americans Hate Tingle and add Pandering Tothe Base and Values Dissonance, I will not get another conflict with accusations of insulting the universal truth? I really do not want conflict, but for the moment, I hear only "you're wrong, because you're wrong."

^ That doesn't really fix the issue. It isn't a cause of Americans Hate Tingle, that is a major misuse of the trope. Pandering to the Base isn't a problem but the example will be if the way it is written comes across as a Take That! to anyone who ships them. As for Values Dissonance, there is no reason to link the two, there's nothing value wise about it that can be wrong since it isn't another society's interpretation of another societies beliefs.

Muramasa got.

P.S These "ship certificates" are still on the border of Les Yay and we can not be sure that they were not unintentional, and the audience did not see them later in a new light after the ending. Especially given that the authors said that after parting with Mako they continued to write them for a long time as friends, thinking that lesbians can't be shown on TV. You just ignore it. How does this fit with the trope about the red sting below? Why does everyone ignore when I ask "do you admit that there are some fans who agree with this"?

Abuse - why? I can not write that in Russia, for example, the show received Ending Aversion, since most people considered it an artificial Pandering Tothe Base? And why can not I write about Values Resonance, if that was the reason that the ending of the show was rejected in some countries?

Edited by LittleBuster

^ Nobody is ignoring that. Simply put though; Where is your evidence of them not being "meant to be together" until the end? I distinctly remember Word of God saying right away as the series ended that they were together, like as in, the day the last episode aired online.

I know there are people who might feel that way, and thats fine if they do feel as though it was a bit out of no where. Strangled by the Red String exists and as long as it is phrased in a way that makes it clear a portion of people felt this way, it isn't a problem. Thats not related to the topic.

As for abuse, for one, I don't know where you are from, so I have to make a vague guess about it. You claim that people from Russia feel the same way, but unless you have solid evidence that yes, a lot of russian people feel that way, then you are misusing the tropes to fuel your arguments. If you have any solid evidence or proof of any of the claims, then you can bring them up and we can see if they are legitimate. You can't speak for everyone.

Edited by keyblade333 Muramasa got.

Nobody ignores, ask my opponent why he after five, FIVE direct questions could not answer my question. I understand that everything is unrelated to the fact that it openly criticizes OTP.

http://bryankonietzko.tumblr.com/post/105916338157/korrasami-is-canon-you-can-celebrate-it-embrace

However, I think there needs to be a counterpart to Miyazaki’s sentiment: Just because two characters of the same sex appear in the same story, it should not preclude the possibility of a romance between them. No, not everyone is queer, but the other side of that coin is that not everyone is straight. The more Korra and Asami’s relationship progressed, the more the idea of a romance between them organically blossomed for us. However, we still operated under this notion, another “unwritten rule,” that we would not be allowed to depict that in our show. So we alluded to it throughout the second half of the series, working in the idea that their trajectory could be heading towards a romance.

But as we got close to finishing the finale, the thought struck me: How do I know we can’t openly depict that? No one ever explicitly said so. It was just another assumption based on a paradigm that marginalizes non-heterosexual people. If we want to see that paradigm evolve, we need to take a stand against it. And I didn’t want to look back in 20 years and think, “Man, we could have fought harder for that.” Mike and I talked it over and decided it was important to be unambiguous about the intended relationship.

We approached the network and while they were supportive there was a limit to how far we could go with it, as just about every article I read accurately deduced. It was originally written in the script over a year ago that Korra and Asami held hands as they walked into the spirit portal. We went back and forth on it in the storyboards, but later in the retake process I staged a revision where they turned towards each other, clasping both hands in a reverential manner, in a direct reference to Varrick and Zhu Li’s nuptial pose from a few minutes prior. We asked Jeremy Zuckerman to make the music tender and romantic, and he fulfilled the assignment with a sublime score. I think the entire last two-minute sequence with Korra and Asami turned out beautiful, and again, it is a resolution of which I am very proud. I love how their relationship arc took its time, through kindness and caring. If it seems out of the blue to you, I think a second viewing of the last two seasons would show that perhaps you were looking at it only through a hetero lens.

These are the paragraphs. At some point he even says that they "wanted to make the ending meaningful" for social reasons, although before that they did not even know how they "will be able to portray such relations in the show."

Okay, at this point I honestly don't know what you're trying to say.

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http://korra-avatar.ru/news/korrasami_podtverzhdaju_ehto_kanon_brajk/2014-12-23-909

Read the comments. If we reject apparently homophobic opinions, then in general, the attitude towards the ending was semi-negative, half-mixed, since very many people considered the image of lesbian relations in the official children's show as an unnecessary policy and vulgarity. Personally, I'm fine with this, as long as it is justified and not caused by trends.

I want to say that the authors wrote them for a long time as "close friends", splicing it up with the banal Les Yay and only in the last season at the end decided to in principle turn them into a couple. If this point of view is not Ass Pull, then what?

Then it's you complaining about a plot point you didn't like. You also seem to fundamentally misunderstand Les Yay and Ho Yay. A creator, by definition, cannot put Ho Yay into a work.

... also, "people think a lesbian relationship in a children's show is vulgar" is still pretty homophobic.

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I believe that this opinion is important, but I do not want to add it simply because I agree with it in some way. I'm not allowed to agree with the opinion?

Values ​​Resonance. It's not so much in lesbian relations, but in the fact that Russian culture is conservative even in depicting "traditional" relations, so something that is considered controversial in modern Russia will be considered too provocative.

In fact, for modern Russia homosexual relations are directly associated with sex, so in the eyes of the Russian viewer this is equivalent to if the girls right at the end said "we love oral sex." This is strange, but this is a feature of the attitude towards non "traditional" relationship among the average citizen in Russia.

Edited by LittleBuster

Sounds like there could be a reasonable example of Values Dissonance there if it's true. If you want to add an example adding that Russian culture is more homophobic thus the "progressive" ending is seen as vulgar, that seems like it'd be fine.

It'd probably be a good idea to post it here first, though. I'm honestly concerned about you trying to sneak more complaining onto the page.

EDIT: Oh wait. You just went and added Broken Base and Americans Hate Tingle. Two things that someone else in this thread just said "don't add." And you added them in the wrong place, to boot.

EDIT EDIT: Pulled the examples you just added. Firstly, as established before, Americans Hate Tingle is a shoehorn. "Season 4" is not a character. Americans Hate Tingle is about a character. Broken Base is slightly better, but it belongs in Season 4, not General, and there's already an entry there that's less complain-y and with better grammar.

Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

There is a big difference between what is considered homophobic in my culture, especially considering SJW-fear in Russian youth culture. Well, I took the liberty and added examples of Broken Base and Americans Hate Tingle, I hope you will not remove them again with some bureaucratic pretensions, without even trying to rewrite.

Well, if you suggest writing about values ​​here, then:

Values Resonance: The show became a well-known example of Ending Aversion in Eastern Europe, as, unlike Western culture with a more tolerant or progressive attitude towards the image of homosexuality, many viewers perceived this ending mixed-negative, having perceived it as Author Tract, inadmissible vulgarity or even as "Propaganda of homosexuality" because of the much more conservative and intolerant attitude to this topic in these countries that was only intensified by polemic about the bad writing of Official Couple at the end of the show.

Are you kidding me? You say that the thing is that I placed the trope in the wrong section, but do not carry it, and immediately delete it. Are you going to provoke me to war the edits, incidentally assigning an article?

For that matters, I don't think "Kuvira getting a redeeming moment in the series finale" is an asspull either since she was portrated as a Well-Intentioned Extremist through the season (granted with an emphasis on the "extremist" part), was shown to love her fiancé and quiete reluctant to kill him. Even before the finale, she wasn't a villain I espected to end as a Complete Monster.

Good compromise.

The rewrite works, I'm all for putting it in.

I'm someone who doesn't care one whit for shipping, and don't really look for anything at all. And even I started noticing stuff in Season 3 and 4, well before the finale, that would be obviously romantic if it was a guy and a girl. The only reason I considered it ambiguous was on the logic of, "Well, Nickelodeon isn't going to have lesbians in a kid's show." Which, as it turns out, was mistaken.

Which is to say that the trope should definitely be on the page. I was fine with the original wording, but this works too.

Edited by MrDeath

Good enough. Throwing it in.

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YEEE Eeee ES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yes, most defiantly. It is difficult to not like him despite his being a bitch in sheep's clothing. The way he switches from funny and eccentric to scary and intimidating then back is exactly what magnificent bastard is all about.

If his status was blurry in Book 2, Book 4 removed all doubts - the guy is a charismatic mad freaking genius.

I added Jerkass Woobie, because, even though I'm on her side, she was being unreasonable for a while.

Find the Light in the Dark

Yea, she's not a Jerkass though. The current entry honestly completely undermines her being a Jerkass by pointing out that her increasingly irritable behavior was justified. A Jerkass by nature is not someone who has a reason for being upset.

You know, I'm kinda of ashamed that I didn't consider that.

Find the Light in the Dark

And she'd only count as a Jerkass Woobie for the first half of Book 2 - she stopped being unreasonable in the next half.

I think he is a decent example, but if you want to argue him, the best place is probably this thread

In terms of being a Knight Templar, that actually doesn't disqualify a character. The difference between a Well-Intentioned Extremist (who would be disqualified) and a Knight Templar (who would not), is that a Well-Intentioned Extremist has good goals, but uses bad methods to achieve them; in contrast, a Knight Templar has bad goals (even if they consider them good), but use bad methods to achieve them.

The distinction between good and bad goals can be kind of fuzzy.

For Unalaq, although he has a point about the human/spiritual worlds, I think his goal is pretty much ruling the world and wiping out present civilization- that would be a bad goal, which he tries to acheive through bad methods- a Knight Templar- and so he wouldn't be disqualified unles you would argue that his goal was something different/a good goal.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

I think he just wanted to rule everything and it was the dark spirit who pushed him to DESTROY EVERYTHING!

He explicitly said that he would create a new world with him as its ruler. But... I don't remember if he said that before or after Vaatu fused with him. If after, I don't think we can exactly count it, since that wasn't really Unalaq.

But the point remains, was he doing bad things for a relatively noble ultimate goal (help the spirits), or did he see helping the spirits as the best way for him to get to power?

Anyway, discuss it in the CM thread, I mentioned it there.

Edited by 156.33.241.8 Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

All of Unalaq's Knight Templar beliefs in spirits and how the world should be like it was before the Avatar existed for all humans and spirits were policies he adopted from the Red Lotus, of which he was a chief member. What he personally desired was power so that he'd have a sense of importance and prestige. That's why he chose the Dark Avatar angle for his plan, something the Red Lotus never intended. As the Dark Avatar bonded with Vaatu, he could let all the spirits out into the physical world again but at the cost of casting the entire physical and spiritual realms into an age of darkness, which would ensure the suffering of all living things, all so that he could be the supreme spiritual ruler of everything. So ultimately, he wasn't much different from Fire Lord Ozai, making him a Complete Monster.

I don't think it can be called an Ass Pull when her importance to spirits and the fact she said right before that she was going to help Korra clearly set her up to do something spiritually significant.

She's set up to do something spiritually significant but... what she managed to do seemed to come entirely from left field. But I see it's on the main page as a Deus ex Machina which I'm okay with.

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It's not an ass pull because she DOES have a serious spiritual significance. Plus, in episode....like 2 the Wan statue gave her a chunk of light energy.

Find the Light in the Dark

It's definitely a Dues ex Machina, not an Ass Pull. Ass Pull implies Jinora would have had shown no prior important role or any spiritual abilities beforehand.

They're certainly Kick the Dog moments or just plain villainous things, but I really don't think they fit the rubric of heinousness necessary for being Moral Event Horizon. It's certainly nowhere near what Unalaq, Amon, or Tarlokk did.

While I agree that it was not a crossing of the MEH, there is nothing factually inaccurate in that example, and like Septimus said, we are not allowed to pull YMMV items simply because we disagree with them.

I agree with Discar. Do I think he crossed the MEH? No. But it's a subjective item and he did do enough bad to have potentially crossed someone's MEH, which inherently has different standards for different people.

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I still say he crossed the moral event horizon, because Varrick did endanger several lives in the process. Endangering lives in the process can never not be (note the deliberate use of the double negative) factored in. It is just blatantly wrong to sympathize with someone who has just sabotaged and taken advantage of a girl who lost her family and everything important to her!

On the contrary, There have been several irredeemable villains that are still likeable, but have crossed the MEH nonetheless. Like Jade from Victorious— she definitely crossed the MEH at one point, but is still likeable.

Edited by 172.19.131.171

"Endangering lives" isn't a MEH crossing, otherwise all the protagonists have done it, too, in both this and the previous series.

Varrick endangered lives DELIBERATELY.

Also, what about taking advantage of someone who lost her family and everything important to her? I cannot imagine anyone sympathizing with that!

Sympathizing with that action, no. That doesn't mean he's become an irredeemable villain, though.

The MEH isn't just a bad thing, it's an act that makes the character pure irredeemably evil, the character will be permanently and always evil. Regardless of whether or not Varrick is entertaining after he committed those acts, they don't make him beyond a shadow of a doubt evil, just an amoral businessman.

EDIT: ^Ninja'd

Question unrelated to Varrick: Can a person who crossed the MEH undergo a Heel–Face Turn and become a hero again, or does that undermine the purpose of permanent severe evil?

Edited by 66.75.122.216

Fine, we'll compromise and put them as Kick the Dog moments

Question unrelated to Varrick: Can a person who crossed the MEH undergo a Heel-Face Turn and become a hero again, or does that undermine the purpose of permanent severe evil?

There have been several examples in which the trope isn't played entirely straight and someone who crosses the line comes back from over it. The earlier crossing gives them an unforgivable mark on their history, but doesn't make them beyond redemption.

And with Varrick, it's pretty clear that despite anything he did wrong, he ultimately redeemed himself in Book 4.

Methinks that confusing Example as a Thesis strikes again here. I don't think that taking the shape of a retcon is necessary, so I would support readding but with a better Example Indentation.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Authors Savingthrow is not "making a second attempt" or "listening fan complains". the laconic page "A retcon or plot intended to appease wary or angry fans." Season 3 is not altering Raava and Vaatu's clash and Amon's hypocrisy in anyway.

I don't know why but I double posted. -_-

Edited by 81.246.232.27

I am not seeing any contradiction. The example looks like a "Plot" alright.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

So it doesn't have to be a retcon? so okay then...

I personally think that any "new" development can qualify if it's done to address fan complaints.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

There's also Animation Lead Time to consider. Part of the third season was written before season 2 was broadcast though it can have few changes.

I'd also like to point out that Amon DID believe in what he preached despite being a hypocritical fraud. He had a distorted vision of "equality" for all people that he was wanting to enforce upon the world.

Now that the show has ended and it was never addressed again, could the entry be added back?

We never saw him again, so yeah, he'd count.

That trope isn't a dumping ground for your personal storylines.

Also, it's pretty obvious Unalaq wasn't going to tell Korra "My grand plan is to destroy the world! Ahahaha!"

Please don't edit war.

Well, They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot is a YMMV item about storylines that could have happened.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot is still not a place where you just complain that your personal pet storyline didn't happen. And for that matter, since ANY plot could have happened, it should be just as valid for me to complain that the show wasn't a serious sports drama about a pro-bending team in war time. Even if that would never have happened.

In fact, I'm pretty sure I brought that one up in Trope Repair Shop before because it just leads to silly complaining like this.

Edited by 68.106.220.231

I dunno, if any Book in the series could qualify for that trope, it'd be Book 2, which had so many different plots going on that were all abandoned in favor of the Harmonic Convergence story at the conclusion.

It got readded saying "context is important." While I get that, it doesn't add context so much as paints a wildly inaccurate picture of what happened. The "context" creates the false idea that the actions were roughly equal, and "using a potentially (but probably not) fatal attack in a fight against a capable opponent" isn't the same as "very lethal attack on an unconscious one"

Is Kuvira trying to kill Korra even a Moral Event Horizon worthy crime here? Villains try to kill heroes all the time, it's kinda what they do.

I'd say it does. They've been sorta tiptoeing around making her seem overtly evil. Attempting to kill a helpless person (the Avatar, no less, who's something of a celebrity and generally considered good for the world) just seems over-the-top for her.

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I suppose I can understand that, it's just that, personally, I feel that trying to kill the hero is pretty tame. I mean, I know this trope is subjective, but every villain, with the exception of Amon who just wanted to debend her, has tried to kill Korra. It especially seems iffy if we take Kuvira's viewpoint into account. I mean, look at it this way, Korra's entered the Avatar state, has temporarily disabled Kuvira and, instead of restraining her, is raising a huge boulder overhead to crush her under. Even though Korra doesn't do it, from an outsider's point of view, it looks like the only reason she didn't crush her was because she dropped out of the Avatar state at a poor time, not because she willingly relented and decided to show mercy. I'm not attempting to whitewash Kuvira or what she's done, I'm just saying that in this instance I could see how Kuvira could interpret Korra's attack as an attempt on her life in a non-fatal duel, and attempts to repay the favor in kind.

Edited by 68.82.100.79

I'd say Kuvira didn't cross the Moral Event Horizon in the first half of Book 4 - it was her antics with the spirit weapon in the second half that pushed her over the line, particularly in "Operation Beifong" and "Kuvira's Gambit."

Why? Don't just drop a character name here; a bit of context is good.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Brilliant: Master strategist who got her smarts from her fiance.

Smoother operator: Bring the E Arth Kingdom in order under the name of Great Uniter

Charismatic: S He has many followers and supporters outside of the Earth Kingdom

Dangerously Genre-Savvy: S He knew Su and her sons were going to assassinate her, using that as an excuse to attack Zaofu. She then creamed Korra in an one-on-one duel.

While I definitely do think she qualifies, I must say she does have a few moments of uncharacteristic idiocy. Her fight with Korra, for one. Under the vast, vast majority of circumstances, that was a horrible, horrible idea and would've crushed any semblance of legitimacy that she had. Unless it gets revealed that the Dark Korra hallucinations were caused by Kuvira, it was sheer luck that kept her from losing.

Also, her utter mishandling of Bolin. I don't know why she thought keeping him comically in the dark then suddenly throwing him into her inner circle was going to work out for her.

Honestly, she kind of reminds me of Azula. She assumed everyone would stay in line out of fear of her, and doesn't even consider that may not even work (Varrick is another case).

So yeah, I'd say she's a Magnificent Bastard, albeit one who gets handed the Idiot Ball on occasion.

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She definitely does count, just as much as Amon and Varrick do. It helps that she's not a Smug Snake like Tarrlok, a Complete Monster like Unalaq, a Generic Doomsday Villain like Vaatu, or a standard criminal/terrorist like Zaheer, and is quite comparable to Azula in some instances.

At what point was it said that Korra created the spirit portal on purpose? It's more implied the large concentration of spirit vines, in tandem with Kuvira's canon, was what did it.

Plus, Vaatu said he's the one who created the old two. If he can do it, then Raava (in Korra) can do it with sufficient spiritual energy. Such as from the cannon.

As an aside, I do agree with the idea that it was on accident. Sort of like she just shunted all the energy somewhere harmless, which resulted in ripping open a new portal and throwing it all there. But that's not really the point.

The creation of the new portal definitly was accidental. Now, was there foreshadowing? Well, yes and no. It really depends on your interpertration of the facts. Regarding the Energy Bending, it is the Chekhov's Skill which allowed her to protect herself and Kuvira, and ultimately helped her to create the portal (she learned how to Energy bend at the end of season 1 thanks to Aang's spirit - though there definitly is an Instant Expert aspect to it). The question is: was there any way to guess that bending such amount of energy would create a portal? Well, as it is pointed out, Vaatu did create the two other portals with his energy. And Korra had a lot of Vaatu's remaining energy to bend. Now, was the creation of the portal something she did on purpose? Obviously, no. So, I would disagree that it is an Ass Pull. But I guess it could have been better foreshadowed.

Okay, I do agree it came out of nowhere. However, it's not an Ass Pull because the Spirit Portal itself isn't really that big of a deal. Like you said, "you can bend energy" was foreshadowed, so her being able to do something with the energy wasn't an Ass Pull. The only reason I don't think that the energy being bent into a spirit portal isn't an asspull is because she could've done... pretty much anything, and it wouldn't have changed the ending much. To be an asspull, the happy ending has to come from nowhere. The happy ending was already there. It's just what they'd do with the ending that wasn't telegraphed, which isn't an Ass Pull.

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Korra's power was of Raava, not Vaatu. The cannon's power was from spirit vines that Unavaatu created, thus why we hear the Vaatu horn-like noise come whenever a purple light blast is fired. Raava's power and Vaatu's power clashed again here (something that did not happen back in the Book 2 Finale, where it was just Unavaatu against Korra's spirit - Raava had to be saved at the end of the fight), and that's why the clash resulted in the creation of a new portal.

Not to mention that Baatar Jr. still had to go to prison for his crimes just like Kuvira. Suyin's the only one who treated him kinder, mostly because she's his mother.

Methinks that's much too little to qualify for Complete Monster in this series - both Ozai and Unalaq seem far worse. You ought to bring this up here, by the way.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Nope. He displays too many good/altruistic qualities.

I personally cannot believe this was ever even a question. Zaheer is a bad man no doubt, but he is easily the most altruistic of the villains (he sincerely believes his cause will help people and to NO gain for himself either), he has more morals and Pet the Dog moments than the rest, and as far as Big Bads go, he's probably at the bottom of the heinous standard despite his one murder, attempted murders, and what he did to personally effect Korra. Amon wanted to become a city's dictator so he could spiritually cleanse an entire group of people and erase them from the world, Kuvira actually was a nation's dictator who wanted to ravage the rest of the world with a super weapon so that her empire could claim what she believed they owned, and Unalaq is the only actual Complete Monster for wanting to cast the entire planet into an age of darkness, thus risking an extermination of everything, all so that he could become the all-powerful ruler of man and spirits alike. Zaheer's goals and actions were small time compared to these.

Edited by ANewMan

There's no real aesop to break. You might be able to claim Unfortunate Implications if you can get a citation, but since they weren't really trying to push an aesop, Broken Aesop doesn't apply. Not to mention it's not YMMV.

Let me put it this way: What do you think is the aesop that they presented, then broke?

I think what the guy meant was Family-Unfriendly Aesop... that the ending basically made it seem like a deep friendship will inevitably turn to romance. That might apply.

Edited by 108.28.148.135 Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

That said, it's obvious the creators were going for a similar series finale. Both Avatar series had a ending ceremony; the Firelord coronation in TLA, and Varrick's wedding in Korra. Both series had two ships, one that would sink, and one that would float. The Zutara ship sank, while the Kataang ship floated. If you remember the love triangle from the past seasons of Korra, it was eventually ruined. So that leaves us now with only one ship; the Korrasami ship. Like it or not, that was the way the final ship sailed into the sunset.

I don't think that there was any Aesop at all- it was just a simple, honest depiction of two girls falling in love, without any clear agenda whatsoever.

True. I clearly have the wrong trope. Still, what really bothers me is that there was little Foreshadowing; understandable, since Nick wouldn't let them air an episode with blatant Les Yay vibes. It just feels... rushed. Forced. They built up a friendly relationship and, suddenly, it's a romance equal to Aang and Katara's, which was subtext for all ATLA.

Must... not... obsessively... correct... entries and grammar... must... not...

I'd say the huge amounts of subtext we've got archived on the Ho Yay page are foreshadowing enough.

In fairness, shippers can and will turn anything into a Ship Tease.

Honestly, I'm very happy with the ending. I thought it was progressive and surprisingly well-done (and I mean the entire ending as a whole, not just the last minute). However, I do see where Pave is coming from. I do think it's a bit frustrating that Asami and Korra just couldn't stay friends. I find it a bit frustrating that writers seem to have difficulty writing characters as good friends without it inevitably turning to romance.

Now in this particular case I'm okay with it because I think it was well done, but it's just one of my pet peeves in general.

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Concerning the Ho Yay page: most of these are things friends do for each other. If you have doubts, just replace "Asami" and "Korra" with "Aang" and "Zuko".
Concerning romantic subtext: The first thing Aang said to Katara was "Will you penguin sleding with me?" From there, we have his questions to the fortuneteller, his declaration to the guru that he loves Katara, the numerous CooldownHugs, LongingLooks and HeldGazes, etc.
All in all, it's a shame writers are rarely content leaving two people as BFFs.

Edited by 2.85.127.206 Must... not... obsessively... correct... entries and grammar... must... not...

Is there anything left to discuss here? The entry isn't a YMMV trope, so don't put it there.

I'd say you can chalk a lot of that up to the difference between a same-sex couple and a heterosexual couple, for one thing. Also- Korra and Asami are a fair bit older than Aang and Katara, so they're not going to be as overt and emotional about their feelings. Beyond that, you've got to take into account censorship and how subtle they had to be to get this to fly on a kids show.

Most who defend Kuvira have Suyin as a counterpoint: the leader who was content to stay in her city and let the Earth Kingdom fall in complete chaos. They know Kuvira uses extreme methods, but they agree that it's better than being passive.

Edited by 2.85.127.206 Must... not... obsessively... correct... entries and grammar... must... not...

I think you are right about Wan.

Not sure about Varrick. Does being a Breakout Character disqualify him? (honest question)- like he was definitely an Ensemble Dark Horse in season 3, but I think he's too central of a character this season to be a Darkhorse anymore.

Edit, edit, edit, edit the wiki

Breakout Character could disqualify a character after the "breakout".

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I think it can stay gone. It's blatantly whitewashing Kuvira and slinging mud at Suyin by misrepresenting.

Kuvira's has been subjugating once-free cities, and Suyin logically has every single right to be resistant to a random usurper showing up on her doorstep with an army saying "join us or die." She also knows Kuvira well enough to know diplomacy is not going to be an option. You're also grossly misrepresenting Suyin when Kuvira left. She didn't hate her then, but she did give her a direct order not to go. Kuvira's response? Abandon her post and take Zaofu's equipment, soldiers, and supplies. Yes, It's Personal because she left with Bataar Jr. (and the "You're brainwashed" was kinda nonsensical). Honestly, I think Kuvira was right to go and Suyin wrong for refusing to go. That much I agree with. But responding rudely to someone showing up on her doorstep with an army and threatening you? Kiiiiiiiiinda tough to be diplomatic there.

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If someone has a sword at your throat the correct response isn't to spit in their face and call their mother a whore. It's to try and convince them to lower the sword. If your own life is worth so little to you that you would rather die for one moment of defiance than live and at least have a chance of turning the tables (a chance that includes a literal Physical God) then you're really just a lost cause to begin with.

Diplomacy is always going to be a more difficult option than "Korra, go into the Avatar state and go apeshit on Kuvira and her army". That's not an excuse not to use it.

Edited by 108.19.84.216 You fell victim to one of the classic blunders!

No one's saying the UU example has to go. But the wild Draco-ing of Kuvira and Ron-ing of Suyin? This isn't the place for it.

The problem with the writeup is it took a side. It was clearly saying "man, that Suyin. What a B, huh?" while at the same time misrepresenting the show. And that's no good.

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Yeah, this edit is clearly more motivated by how much you dislike Suyin than by anything that's actually happening in the show.

Edited by 160.79.180.35

It wasn't; it was in a flashback in episode 2, which was released in preview clip form before episode 1.

I get the impression that we are dealing with a case of people trying to remove opinions they disagree with again...

I am inclined to leave the example, but the spoiler tags have to go.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

If there's no proof she knew Mako could lightning bend, then it's not an What An Idiot moment. How "widespread" the ability to lightning bend is is irrelevant.

Alright then, I'll leave it out.

Not to mention, she had been imprisoned for 13 years. Given the rate that time has moved on, the proliferation of Lightning Bending may be relatively recent. And even then, she's faced off with him before and he didn't lightningbend then so she'd be pretty safe assuming he can't.

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Messaged them, and put the entries here:

• Alternative Character Interpretation:
  • Was Lin actually justified in her long standing resentment of her younger half sister Suyin or was she unfairly holding a grudge against her (and their mother for that matter)? How much blame does each sister deserve for the feud lasting for so long? Do they really even bring anything positive into each others lives? Is Lin really a better, happier person for reconciling with Suyin at the end of Old Wounds or was she unfairly bullied into it and now a victim of some casual manipulation by Suyin, who is now taking advantage of the chance to finally get Lin where she always wanted her so she can finally have her "perfect life" by taking advantage of Lin being too emotionally weak to tune her out?
  • Is Suyin really the cool older lady everyone thinks she is, or a Manipulative Bitch who just happens to be on the side of good? Is she even on the side of good? Is her lack of remorse for the various bad or at least questionable things she did in her past her accepting that those mistakes were just a natural part of her journey to becoming a better person, or does she have tendencies of a sociopath where she just plain didn't care who she hurt? Was she ever really sincere about wanting to reconcile with Lin, or was she feeding Blatant Lies to Korra and pretty much everyone else around her? Is she sincere when they finally do reconcile, or again, is she just manipulating an emotionally weakened Lin so she can finally have her life exactly the way she always wanted it?

Not sure which trope:

• Suyin saying the one thing that truly kept her life from being perfect was that Lin refused to forgive her and be a part of it. Considering that Suyin has a nice big house with plenty of expensive possessions and a family that loves her while Lin has a fairly lonely life back in Republic City so it's pretty hard to take seriously.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Whether Suyin is a reformed criminal who learned from her mistakes or just retired after making enough money is a good point. However by all implications, it seems like she sincerely tried to reconcile with her sister.

For the second entry, it's possible to have "a nice big house with plenty of expensive possessions and a family that loves her" AND be upset about being unforgiven by her sister. I really don't see any contradiction.

I admit my edits were overzealous and tried to force too many ideas into too small a space. If I have offended anyone I am sorry. If there are any additional edits you wish me to remove I shall do so and I shall refrain from visiting and editing that particular page in the future.

Internet Backdraft have the following thing as the last paragraph of the description: "No examples, please. Everything can cause this to an extent, whether if it's on the Internet or not."

Doesn't stop it from appearing in every other YMMV page.

Yep, that paragraph only applies to on-page examples. Wicks are fine.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I agree with keeping these off the page, at least until the season is over.

Yeah it's almost like people have different opinions or their mileage may very. But leave them here for now it will be easier to put them back should they remain the mass opinion after season three.

Also none of the tropes on a YMMV page have "citations" outside of places fans talk whether it be tumblr, reddit, 4chan or the like since they are opinion based.

Just because there are differing opinions that exist doesn't mean they automatically go in YMMV. The Win Back the Crowd trope has just as much support in being placed in Book 2 as it does with Book 3. And vice versa with Seasonal Rot.

Sorry, wrong post.

Edited by 68.106.220.231

The "But what about meeeeen" aspect of that entry is enough to at LEAST give it a rewrite should a real citation ever show up.

How, exactly, is this different from a "real citation?"

It's not a citation. "Was criticized" by virtue of being passive voice and without a reference is not a citation.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Don't think so - they were definitely written to be disliked. They're lazy, incompetent, and rude, and no-one likes them in-show. A Scrappy is generally a character that ends up despised by accident due to bad writing. So, no, Lu and Gang don't really fit that trope.

Hate Sink is the more appropriate trope.

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I think it's possible to still get a Scrappy out of a character designed for the audience to dislike if they legitimately hate seeing them in the show and just want them written out. But I think these two didn't really hit that point.

Go ahead.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Yeah, looks okay to me.

Added.

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In retrospect, Book 1 had a really obvious one in the finale, so I've added an entry for that as well.

That's not an idiot plot, which is a plot where everyone involved has to be an idiot for it to take place.

Korra has fans who are willing to defend her until she's flawless and sinless. If someone mentions not liking her, they'll just remove the entry.

Except the addition is still in there. Please don't strawman, Dennis.

I'm not strawmanning. I've been there before. Viewing the history shows that complaints about Korra grow slowly alleviated until they eventually disappear. This is also true for non-Korra-related Ron the Death Eater entries and even the Complete Monster debate below.

What I mean is, perhaps the problem isn't with people who will "defend her until she's flawless and sinless" and more with people who put on unnecessary bashing. That's what gets culled, not anything where anyone says something bad about Korra.

And, as stated, Codafett's addition is still in there.

False alarm it's still there. Someone just moved it to a different section for some reason.

Find the Light in the Dark

Dennis, picking fights on the site is a fast ticket to losing your editing privileges.

We have this page here for a reason - the stuff that gets pulled is always either straight up natter or needless trolling.

As long as you spoiler, it should be okay.

Find the Light in the Dark

Being fooled isn't automatically idiot ball. People can be fooled without being or becoming an idiot. Just because the character did not make the decision you would have (with hindsight, an outside perspective, and no personal investment) does not make them an idiot.

Yeah, from Korra's perspective Unalaq was nowhere near the untrustworthy ass we now know him to be.

Find the Light in the Dark

There's always been a dedicated Hatedom for them, but it's always been very small. I'd pull the entry just for the fact that neither of them are even considered Scrappies around here.

If the Hatedom did come around this season, I'd say we keep it in but change the language to specify that the Hatedom stopped... hating. Honestly, that's even more impressive and noteworthy if that's the case

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I'm going to cut them for now... at the very least, the entries aren't well written and are contradictory.

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Agreed

Alas, Poor Scrappy is for characters being killed.

Oh okay i thought it was for Scrappies or Ex-Scrappies who deserve sympathy

There's a better, more clear example of Unalaq crossing the Moral Event Horizon in A New Spiritual Age: He basically threatens to destroy the soul of Jinora unless Korra agrees to open the Northern Spirit Portal for her safety but as soon as she does, Unalaq tries to destroy Korra's own soul with dark water bending and has Jinora be taken somewhere else in the clutches of Dark Spirits.

Edited by 50.131.101.157

That is a MEH but it happened after he abandoned his son when he needed help

If the MEH I said doesn't count then what Shadao said definitely fits the entry

You were not the only one 8^D

I believe it's already added.

I can't seem to find it anywhere on the YMMV page. Is it somewhere else?

Edited by 38.123.35.131

And The Fandom Rejoiced is not allowed on the YMMV at all since it's a Sugar Wiki trope. Iroh's return is on that page.

Could he be considered an Ensemble Dark Horse in this series? I know he's a main character in the first series, but he doesn't look to have a lot of screen time in this one. His appearance already seems to be a heavily celebrated part of this Book. If it's already stuff that's covered by the rejoicing page however, I'm sorry for wasting every body's time.

Edited by 50.15.186.36

Took a Level in Dumbass?

I don't think it counts. She shushed him because he kept barging into meetings she was having with someone else, and she came to investigate him because police don't just dismiss a tip because "a criminal told us." Especially when that criminal has a known association with the person, and when the person just admitted he had worked with them recently.

Yes, but Beifong is a metalbender, and it's been shown that all metalbenders need to make use of Toph's special seismic senses to bend metal. Seismic senses that also made Toph a Living Lie Detector. Lin would be fully aware whether or not someone was lying or telling the truth; not everyone is a stoically pathological liar like Azula.

Lin should know that Mako is probably telling the truth and can't discount the idea that the evidence incriminating him could have been planted.