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    Original post 
Evil Is Sexy is an interesting trope, because it claims to be an Audience Reaction, but the description is almost completely objective. It discusses tricks creators use to intentionally make their villains sexually appealing, all of it related to the idea that evil characters have looser sexual morals and how they're more assertive and superficially charming. This means that, despite the trope's YMMV designation, the Evil Is Sexy Wick Check found these wick patterns:

  • Subjective: 1/62, or ~2%
  • Design-Based: 15/62, or 24%
  • In-Universe: 5/62, or ~8%
  • Misuse: 4/62, or ~6%
  • Unsortable: 4/62, or ~6%
  • ZCE: 34/62, or ~52%

So, let's start at the most obvious point. The usage is overwhelmingly more design-based than subjective. It's far more likely for examples to talk about the fact that the villain is objectively sexualized, rather than how the audience finds them hot. Of course, there is also a massive ZCE bin, most of which are actually partial-context examples lacking either an explanation of why they're sexy, or lacking an explanation of what makes them evil. Some examples were used for characters who weren't even villains, and a few were about in-universe reaction to villains.

The easiest thing to do would be to just move this out of YMMV and keep only the objective examples. Focus it on how villains are sexier than heroes. That would keep the majority of examples, but the subjective ones (even if very few exist) would have to be moved somewhere else; perhaps to DILP, but I'm not sold on that, considering that I do think people can thirst over a villain and still acknowledge that they're evil. There's also the issue of overlap with Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains, which may mean that the "fans think villains are hot" stuff is the only unique idea...

...Though there's always the option to retool this into a supertrope for such concepts, or maybe to just go all the way and make it an index of tropes used to sexualize villains. I'm not super thrilled about this, but I do think it'd be a valid option, as long as we can come up with enough related tropes and stop people from wicking it willy-nilly.

It's worth noting that this has had other TRS threads. One tried and failed to make it objective, but it was done with no wick check and the thread ultimately petered out. There was also this one that also clocked out. What both of these have in common is that people were throwing around rename options, as well as potentially changing the trope's scope and meaning. Both are, of course, from over a decade ago and lack the same argument standards we have today, but they're still worth taking into account.

So, to recap, here is what I think our best options are:

  1. Turn into a normal trope, and clean up. Rename optional.
  2. Retool the scope, such as by turning it into a supertrope or focusing on a specific design choice. Would probably need a rename.
  3. Turn into an index, which I guess isn't mutually exclusive with making a subtrope, but would likely mean examples are off the table. May or may not need a rename.

I'm a little sad that I can't find a good way to salvage the subjective examples since I do think those are unique as audience reactions, but if there's so few of them, it's hard to account for them aside from moving them somewhere else. Of course, if the "evil is objectively hotter" concept is already covered, then we may have no choice but to massively retool this into a more subjective idea.

Wick check:

Evil Is Sexy is an Audience Reaction, but the description is heavily based on objective and intentional character design. This means that it could be seeing use both as an objective "Empress Evilz is portrayed as sexier than Super Alice" and as a subjective "Fans think Empress Evilz is hot".

Wicks: 62/62

  • Subjective: 1/62, or ~2%
  • Design-Based: 15/62, or 24%
  • In-Universe: 5/62, or ~8%
  • Misuse: 4/62, or ~6%
  • Unsortable: 4/62, or ~6%
  • ZCE: 34/62, or ~52%

    open/close all folders 

    Subjective Reaction 
  1. YMMV.Jeff Hardy: Maybe its the aggressiveness, or maybe it's just the black, but he looked really, really good as a heel.

    Design and Intent 
  1. Roleplay.Raharigan Series: The whole of clan Daeva is demonically hot and devilishly sexy. Literally.
  2. StepfordSmiler.Tabletop Games: Every vampire from Vampire: The Requiem slowly loses its Humanity as the years go by, but the Daeva clan are particularly prone to this. They are presented as sexy and manipulative men and women that ooze sensuality, and maintain the image of the perfect vampires, but inside they're completely rotten. Years of manipulation drain their ability to feel true attachment until they can no longer comprehend human emotions and even though they seem to be passionate and claim to understand desire, they only feel need. This causes many Daeva to became depraved and desperate to feel again. Things get worse each passing decade, because vampires tend to forget to fake breathing and blinking, gradually turning them into Empty Shells and truly establishing their Stepford Smilers status and Uncanny Valley natures. This, of course, makes humans (as well as animals) feel that there's something atrociously wrong with them.
    Daeva: Such simple creatures. I'm grateful not to be one any longer. Still... I do wish to remember just a bit more clearly what it felt like.
  3. YMMV.Aksana: Eh, she didn't start out 'evil' or 'sexy', became evil first in FCW and Sexy on NXT. Notably as a face, she was a Funny Foreigner. And even after the character switch to The Vamp, when she showed up on Smackdown, she was merely dropping Innocent Innuendos. Upon a heel turn to become Cesaro's valet and later an in-ring performer, she became far more sexual; posing on the ring like a Hood Ornament Hottie and doing a sexy crawl during matches.
  4. YMMV.Bibleman: Rapscalion P. Sinister, who only appeared in the A Fight for Faith live show, was actually good-looking and had a refined British accent, a far cry from the usually ugly villains Bibleman faces.
  5. YMMV.Cinderella Phenomenon: Hildyr, despite being a depraved Wicked Witch, is quite beautiful.
  6. YMMV.Devils And Realist: The demons have considerably more stylish and revealing outfits than angels.
  7. YMMV.Galefire:
  8. YMMV.Hit Monkey: Lady Bullseye may be a ruthless assassin, but no one can deny that she's an attractive woman who in one point is shown wearing a revealing dress.
  9. YMMV.Hugtto Pretty Cure: Even if George is a cruel and diabolical man, he is quite a looker. Some of his own minions even think he’s handsome at points.
  10. YMMV.Love Tyrant: Shikimi is the most outright evil of the girls introduced so far and the one that is the most overtly sexual in her advances. She is as beautiful as she is dangerous.
  11. YMMV.Pippin: Fastrada, obviously. But to a lesser extent, Leading Player. Whether played by a man or woman his/her choreography is usually quite sexual, not surprising since this show was originally directed and choreographed by Bob Fosse.
  12. YMMV.Rise Of The Guardians: Pitch Black. The creators admit in the official DVD commentary that they interpreted fear as something that "seduces you," so they made Pitch sensual and seductive on purpose. One director even complained that his wife seemed to like Pitch more than him!
  13. YMMV.Si N: Elexis Sinclaire. She's as vile as she is sexualized.
  14. YMMV.Splicers: The seven N.E.X.U.S. personalities are all drawn as attractive young women with several prominent Fanservice traits such as Godiva Hair, Underboobs and Of Corsets Sexy. It can be almost easy to forget they're the Big Bad of the setting.
  15. YMMV.Stardust:
    • Lamia, the main antagonist, is the most played up for her fanservice — this is actually a plot point, since part of her motivation is to be young and beautiful.
    • Septimus, the most ruthless of the princes, is also the most attractive (evident even in the way he dresses, which while not heavily sexualized still plays off the "bad boy" archetype).

    In-Universe Reaction 
  1. DarthWiki.Burnt Empire: Most people seem to think this of Jacob even after he's shown how low he'll sink. In-universe, of course. The author has no idea what the tiny fanbase thinks of him.
  2. Literature.May Day Eve: When Badoy and Agueda recount to their descendants their encounters with each other in front of the mirror, they describe the sight of each other as very physically attractive, whatever their mental demons.
  3. NostalgiaChick.Tropes A To F:
  4. Recap.Class The Stone House: Ram lampshades this trope and the Dwindling Party. April presumes she will be the Final Girl, but Tanya insists April will instead be the first to die, and that Tanya will be the Sole Survivor, after figuring out Charlie was the killer, on the basis that it's always the attractive ones. Ram objects.
  5. Recap.Skip Beat Volume 15: Reino overtakes Sho Fuwa for the spot of #1 jerkass in the series when he stalks and attempts to assault Kyoko, for no other reason than to "steal her away" from Sho Fuwa. When Director Ogata and Sho arrive to rescue Kyoko and tell her to report Reino to the police, he encourages her to do so, saying he'll go to the tabloids and tell them that he assaulted Kyoko. He knows he's a bigger celebrity than she is, so the headlines will all read "Dark Moon's Mio Assaulted by Vie Ghoul Frontman in Broad Daylight." He knows the gossip will boost his career image as a bad boy, but Kyoko's reputation will be ruined - she'll only ever be known as the girl he assaulted, and audiences will never be able to see Mio as the powerful & independent character Kyoko created.

    Misuse 
  1. Fanfic.Inner Demons: Rarity's birthday gift to Twilight is teaching her how to beautify herself, and the result is described as looking very attractive. Then she goes evil. Seemingly no correlation between her looks and her evilness...
  2. YMMV.Dont Take This Risk: "Evil" might or might not be pushing it, depending on who you ask, but the mysterious man is considered very alluring by the fans. If they're not evil...
  3. YMMV.I Care A Lot: Monstrous as they may be, Marla and Fran are still respectively played by the stunning Rosamund Pike and Eiza González. Attractive because of their actors, not their villainy or design
  4. YMMV.Petite Princess Yucie: Glenda, while hardly evil generally dresses more revealing than the other girls. She is also quite well endowed for a ten-year old.

    Other/Unsortable 
  1. Characters.Harlots: A rare villainous invoked example, she's noted to be highly attractive despite her age. She even has the new head judge sleeping with her in season 2. Putting it here, because it's unclear if she's sexy because she's evil. But it's not technically a ZCE.
  2. UsefulNotes.BDSM: The popular view on BDSM has shifted greatly over the decades. Before the nineties, it was mostly viewed as something bad that was perverted or destructive or both. After the nineties, it's more common to portray it as something that can made fun of in a non-mean way or portrayed as sexy without the Evil Is Sexy stigma.
  3. YMMV.Bernice Summerfield: Oh Brax. Seriously, this man has started wars, destroyed whole planets and been tinkering with the timelines (and everyone's lives) for decades. Yet he is still one of the most popular characters produced in the Expanded Universe. At first he was popular because of his moral ambiguity but even when he became much more evil he retained his fanbase (several members of which go on and on about his silky-smooth voice). Unsure how to sort, mostly because IDK if an attractive voice is enough to count as sexy
  4. YMMV.The Lost Stars: Morgan is completely insane, ruthless, and hot. Just like her namesake. Unclear if it's subjective or not

    ZCE, PCE, Stray Potholes 
  1. Anime.Gun X Sword: Carmen and Fasalina have a few of these through the series.
  2. Characters.Endtown: She's definitely one of the more attractive female mutants in the story.
  3. Characters.Knots Landing: Trope name only
  4. DarthWiki.Total Drama Tumblr:
    • Delilah
    • Lavender
    • Starr
    • Cain
    • Midori
  5. DownerEnding.Anime And Manga: The first Fullmetal Alchemist anime has a Villain Episode that features Lust, who is contemplating her existance. There's more to this example, but this is the only relevant bit
  6. Heartwarming.Bambi II: Ronno definitely has his share of Draco in Leather Pants going on in the fandom, but it's not terribly uncommon to find fanart with a rather sweet milder take where he's portrayed as being on friendly terms with Bambi and sometimes even Faline as well.
  7. Laconic.Squirrel And Hedgehog: Potholed to describe Lt. Vixen
  8. Manga.Minami Ke: Chiaki and Fujioka's angel/devil pairs that appear in episode two of Okaeri. Combined with Evil Is Sexy.
  9. Series.Chinese Paladin 3: Chonglou. He's noted in-universe as being tall and handsome. Doesn't explain if he's evil.
  10. Webcomic.Heartcore: Applies to Royce, along with Evil Is Sexy applying to most of the cast.
  11. YMMV.Birdy The Mighty:
    • Revi isn't by any means ugly and does tend to wear does pretty sexy outfits.
    • Shyamalan is pretty decent-looking as well.
    • The Ryunka toys with this. When it first wakes up, it's still in the body of Sayaka, who's a pretty good-looking girl wearing a sexier dress than she normally would. Shyamalan can't resist commenting on how beautiful it is. Of course, its true form is anything but sexy.
    • Moss, at least in human form, where she's a breathtakingly beautiful woman.
  12. YMMV.Blue Green Eyes: The creature summoned by Sephiroth.
  13. YMMV.Bordello Of Blood: Take a wild guess...
  14. YMMV.Casper: Carrigan being played by Cathy Moriarty. Her ghost form takes it even more so.
  15. YMMV.Half World: Slender, sensual Illana.
  16. YMMV.Kan Colle: The more human-looking Abyssal ships have gotten this reaction from fans, to the point where some have wished for the option to play as the Abyssal Fleet, or at least have them come over to your side. A subjective reaction, however it doesn't explain who the Abyssal are or why they're sexy
  17. YMMV.Child Of Light: Umbra and her daughters are all quite beautiful.
  18. YMMV.In Famous: Sasha.
  19. YMMV.Moshi Monsters: Many fans on TikTok and Tumblr think Dr. Strangeglove is sexy.
  20. YMMV.Neopets: Lord Kass, Ylana Skyfire, Captain Scarblade, Jazan (before his Heel–Face Turn), Kanrik (See Jazan), Eithne, and Xandra get this. Being a fan of the site, I haven't actually seen too many people thirst over these pets, but either way it's low context
  21. YMMV.Orcs: Jennesta and Adpar.
  22. YMMV.Pandora Hearts:
    • Lottie. And the author is aware of that.
    • Glen Baskerville also has his fangirls. Specifically, all the Glens have his own fangirls.
  23. YMMV.Pretty Sammy: Just compare the outfit of Sammy and Misa.
  24. YMMV.Revolution X: Helga, at least until she transforms into her real form Mondor (who is a guy).
  25. YMMV.Saiyuki: A lot of the villains qualify, the whole Kougaiji-ikkou, Chin Yisou, Kami-sama, Hazel, Gato, Ukoku/Ni Jianyi, and it goes on and on.
  26. YMMV.Soul Eater Not: Shaula Gorgon, just like her sisters Medusa and Arachne. Though some say she's more of a Cute Witch rather than a Hot Witch.
  27. YMMV.Star Gladiator: Certain members of the Fourth Empire may or may not count, although Rain, Bilstein's daughter, most likely takes the cake.
  28. YMMV.Sunrider: Cossette and Fontana. Also the Prototypes, when in their skin-tight black suits, and Hospital Hottie Claude.
  29. YMMV.Tale Spin: Kitten Kaboodle in "A Star Is Torn."
  30. YMMV.Tentyrian Legacy: Stavros
  31. YMMV.The Long Kiss Goodnight: Craig Bierko as Timothy sure deserves some female fans. He did win a 'Sexiest Broadway Star' award five years later.
  32. YMMV.The Super Inframan: Princess Dragon Mom. There's a reason there are quite a few pieces of fan art of her.
  33. YMMV.Trick Or Treat Scooby Doo: Coco Diabolo, who not only wears very form-fitting clothes but has a design that easily brings to mind Chel from The Road to El Dorado. No wonder Velma has a crush on her. No explanation on if she's evil
  34. YMMV.Wild Knights Gulkeeva: A lot of the Darknoids are just as attractive as the heroes. Notable examples include Yun and Olbaru.

Extra experiment by Sync: Comparing how pages that link to both Evil Is Sexy / Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains use the concept.

    Examples describe the same situation/character (33) 
  1. Attraction to Outliers
    • Evil Is Sexy: Being a menace to society is sexually alluring.
    • Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains: Overt sexuality is shorthand for "villain" while sensible wear is code for "heroine". This has the double implication of assuming that someone who is overtly sexy is not socially acceptable and/or that they are sexy BECAUSE they are not socially acceptable.
  2. Bondage Is Bad: X-Men: The fetishistic BDSM-type outfits worn by the Queens of the Hellfire Club, beyond the Evil Is Sexy fanservice, are pretty much a visual shorthand for their low moral character.
  3. At Arm's Length: In the folder of Temujin
    • Evil Is Sexy: ZCE, description says she's evil
    • Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains: The main characters wear reasonable shirt and pants combos into battle, but Temujin looks like she bought her outfit from the barbarian section of Victoria's Secret.
  4. Buffyverse: Faith Lehane
    • Evil Is Sexy: Among Faith's many colorful outfits are her infamous leather pants, which Spike uses to identify her during their first official meeting in "Dirty Girls."
    • Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains: While not exactly Stripperific, Faith tends to show a lot more cleavage than Buffy (and wear generally tighter outfits). Subverted after she is reformed in prison and, embracing her status as an Anti-Hero, starts to dress more modestly.
  5. Doctor Who – Rose Tyler
  6. Ensign Sue Must Die: Folder Empress Sue
  7. Fate/Grand Order: Avengers: Jeanne
  8. Mortal Kombat – Mileena
  9. Daddy's Little Villain, description: If she's above a certain age, she is going to be hot, often a cooler character than the female lead, and might wear less.
  10. Dressed Like a Dominatrix, description: This trope can overlap with Evil Is Sexy and Evil Wears Black (not all these women are evil, and not all these costumes are black) and Stripperriffic (not all these costumes are impractical for the characters that wear them). This is usually the easiest way to accomplish Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains (even though there are other ways).
  11. Good Princess, Evil Queen, description: Alternatively, she's an example of Evil Is Sexy, but the princess will almost certainly have the purer and "more wholesome" type of beauty.
  12. The War of Drekis
  13. Sinister Nudity description: Compare Evil Is Sexy and Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains, where the villain's skimpiness or nudity is supposed to be both sinister and titillating.
  14. Some Semblance of Meaning
  15. Dark Matter (2015)
    • Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains: Not so much with the actual villains of the show (except Alicia Reynaud), but when contrasting our heroes with their evil counterparts. While ruthless murderers Portia (during flashbacks to the pre-mindwipe days on the Raza) and Alt Portia from the Alternate Universe, and newly-ethical Two, all generally wear tight black outfits, the Portias still manage to dress considerably more revealingly (very low-cut shirts, boob windows, bared midriffs), to the point where you can easily tell who's who during fake-outs by the amount of cleavage shown by the actress. Even the outfits of One / Corso try to encourage the Evil Is Sexy trope by having Corso (and Alt Corso) wear guyliner and more black leather, while One dresses in a range of black, white and earth tones with an aesthetic that's more "space cowboy" while Corso's could be described as "vampire wannabe". The male version of this doesn't come with the same visual allusions to the Madonna-Whore Complex, though.invoked
  16. Super Sentai:
  17. WesternAnimation.Trese:
  18. Miss Kobayashi's Dragon Maid: Word of God states that Ilulu's overt display of sex appeal is directly because of her being "the evil dragon". Then goes on to state that if she had been wearing a maid outfit, the genderbent Kobayashi wouldn't have been able to resist her, unlike with Tohru. The "evil" part disappears after her Heel–Face Turn.
  19. That Mitchell and Webb Look
    • Evil Is Sexy: A woman in a Christie-esque detective drama gets progressively better hair and make-up, and more cleavage, as she confesses to murder. This is, of course, lampshaded and invoked.
    Freddie: Have her tits just got bigger?
    Vauron: Zis can happen.
    • Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains: Invoked and Played for Laughs (naturally) in "Evil Voice". Once the murderer is revealed, in between shots she suddenly gets better hair, "evil lipstick", and a tighter, shorter, cleavagey-er version of her dress.
  20. Date A Live: Evil Is Sexy: The Astral Dress of Tohka's Superpowered Evil Side, is noticeably more revealing than her normal Astral Dress. Seems to be the defining characteristic of Inverse Astral Dresses. Word of God says that the more revealing designs invoke Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains.
  21. Evil Costume Switch: Description notes that the new costume is often skimpier and sexier
  22. Evil Is Cool: the villains often look much sexier than the heroes,
  23. Mortal Kombat:
  24. EvilIsSexy.Live Action TV: Faith is the Evil Counterpart to Buffy and - since Evil is Sexy - she wears skimpier clothes and is a Sex Goddess who is unabashedly promiscuous and seductive. When she's first introduced she's explicitly contrasted as being more "fun" than Buffy, telling "sexy" stories about how she Sleeps in the Nude and had to fight vampires naked when they ambushed her. In season 4, Willow lampshadingly describes Faith as a "cleavagey slut-bomb walking around going, 'Oh, check me out, I'm wicked cool, I'm 5 by 5.' ". Notably when she starts dressing more modestly and acts less sexually aggressive after her Heel–Face Turn.
  25. Obviously Evil: * Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains: Villains tend to wear less clothing cuz Evil Is Sexy.
  26. Light Is Not Good: Whereas the Dark is sexy and alluring and tends to dress that way
  27. Good Angel, Bad Angel: Expect a female character's Devil to dress all Stripperiffic, to invoke Evil Is Sexy, Hot as Hell, and Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains.
  28. Kill la Kill: * Evil Is Sexy: Pretty much every single female antagonist has some form of sex appeal, while also subverting an element of this somehow:
  29. YMMV/Pathfinder One of four Evil Is Sexy examples
  30. Alexa Bliss
    • Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains: She didn't only drop her nice girl persona when she turned heel, she also left behind several square feet of clothing.
    • Evil Costume Switch: After turning heel, she went from the fairy outfit (which had a long-sleeved blouse and shorts) to something resembling Blake and Murphy's outfit: red with white and black highlights (including the claw marking design) and a whole lot more exposed skin on both the top and the bottom (halter-top and almost a bikini).
  31. Laconic.Sensible Heroes Skimpy Villains: Heroes always dress modestly while villains dress in skimpy outfits.
  32. PlayingWith.Big Bad: "Why can't the guys with badass armies, big fortresses, skimpy seductive consorts, and infinite resources ever be on our side?"
  33. EvilIsSexy.Video Games: Mercedes after becoming the new Arch-Demon[...] Her new outfit is a prime example of a Ms. Fanservice design and she speaks in a lower, smoother, more menacing tone. Like the above example, she was already insanely hot beforehand.

    Wicks don't refer to the same thing but describe similar contrast (5) 
  1. Beauty Is Bad
  2. Sex Is Evil
  3. Stock Aesops: Both are in the appearance section
  4. Girls' Frontline Evil Is Sexy:
    • Sangvis Ferri as a whole gets in on this due to Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains. In particular, several of their Mooks just wear bikinis.
    • Morridow, full stop. Her civilian form is not too bad on the eyes, but her boss form has possibly the most voluptuous figure among her faction, with Cleavage Window to compliment her looks.
    • Forget Morridow, the elites of Paradeus as a whole are this trope. Many have skimpy or curvy designs like the Ringleaders of Sangvis Ferri, but unlike the latter, Paradeus' elites are usually adults, so they have fuller curves to work with, and one of them was designed to be a Honey Trap.
  5. PlayingWith.Sensible Heroes Skimpy Villains: Evil Is Sexy is listed as a reason why this might be Enforced Trope

    Wicks are unrelated (14) 
  1. Common Hollywood Sex Traits
  2. Navel-Deep Neckline
  3. Laws and Formulas
    • Evil Is Sexy: All things being equal, evil characters are sexier.
    • Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains: Where a female character lies on the "good versus evil scale" is directly proportional to how much skin she is or is not showing.
  4. Evil Tropes
  5. Video Games
  6. Sexy Backless Outfit
  7. Villainous Fashion Sense (index)
    • SHSV is on the index
    • EIS in in the description
    • Neither are elaborated
  8. Good Angel, Bad Angel.Webcomics: Separate examples
  9. Madonna-Whore Complex
    • SHSV is a compare trope
    • EIS is on the index
    • Neither elaborated
  10. WarpThatAesop.Tropes
  11. EvilCostumeSwitch.Anime And Manga
    • Code Geass: It does lean to being more skimpy than his previous outfit however.
  12. Western Animation
    • Little Chibi-Usa/Rini, whose face-heel turn involved transforming from a cute little girl into a twenty-something seductress in a slinky black dress. Apparently, evil isn't only cooler; it's also sexier.
  13. Lunar: The Silver Star: Refers to two different characters
  14. Tropes N to Z:
    • Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains: The majority of the Cosmos-side characters are fully covered — Terra has a minidress and tights in her default (no tights in the alt), and Tidus has his trademark teeny shirt, but that's the extent of bared skin. Chaos-side has Ultimecia, who wears a dress with a front slit up to the crotch and a neckline so low one can make a good guess as to her, erm, grooming habits, Kuja the Thonged Wonder, Sephiroth whose alt wears only pants and boots, Jecht whose normal getup is shirtless, and the Cloud of Darkness, who is wearing, essentially, body paint. Chaos himself is only wearing a loincloth, but as he's not precisely human, he doesn't really qualify.
    • * Orgasmic Combat: Some of the characters sound like they may be doing... something other than fighting when they get hit. Running through their voice files in the Museum, in rapid succession, can take the effect up a notch — Terra, Cloud of Darkness, and Firion are particularly notable in this regard.

    Can't say because both are zce (3) 

Edited by GastonRabbit on Nov 24th 2023 at 7:29:36 AM

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#26: Jul 6th 2023 at 6:13:17 PM

Honestly, yeah I'm down for that

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#27: Jul 6th 2023 at 6:37:03 PM

I'm now in favor of selkies's proposal.

Now that I think about it, the fact that only one out of 62 examples in the wick check was subjective makes me more inclined to support making this an objective trope with a new name while turning this into an index without splitting off subjective examples.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 6th 2023 at 8:44:16 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
AudioSpeaks2 He/Him (Greenhorn) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
He/Him
#28: Jul 6th 2023 at 6:52:25 PM

The Helluva Boss subpage for this trope is pretty odd too.

  • Blitzo's attractiveness isn't really explained at all, and if anything, the entry mostly talks about his horny personality and being sexy In-Universe
  • Before I added a bit more context, Beelzebub was added to the page without any explanation of her being an Affably Evil Emotion Eater. So basically, it was just an entry gushing about her being hot without once explaining how she's evil. Even with the extra context something feels...off.

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#29: Jul 6th 2023 at 11:31:33 PM

Don't like any of the on the table options. Will probably abstain.

Oissu!
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#30: Jul 7th 2023 at 12:10:36 AM

Do you have any other ideas you'd prefer?

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#31: Jul 7th 2023 at 12:41:55 AM

I will admit, I do feel like this could maybe stay a YMMV trope. And just...IDK, try to focus more wording examples to be about the subjective audience reaction for examples and such.

The First man
Snicka Since: Jun, 2011
#32: Jul 7th 2023 at 2:53:34 AM

The problem with keeping this YMMV is that it could attract a lot of "I, this particular troper, find this villain attractive" type examples, which is not really a tropable idea.

MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#33: Jul 7th 2023 at 3:06:09 AM

The thing with the current description is that what it describes isn't really YMMV, but it isn't really an in-universe trope either, more of an Intended Audience Reaction. Keeping this as an objective trope with the current name might imply that Evil Is Sexy in-universe.

Just throwing that out there for now, to inform any naming decisions the thread might come to later.

Edited by MorganWick on Jul 7th 2023 at 3:06:58 AM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#34: Jul 7th 2023 at 4:58:13 AM

[up]I agree that it's an Intended Audience Reaction and that the current name would be non-indicative if we made it objective, which is why I was already in favor of using a different name while reusing the name Evil Is Sexy for an index.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 7th 2023 at 6:59:06 AM

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PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#35: Jul 7th 2023 at 9:07:02 AM

I think the Audience Reaction of finding evil characters sexy is a valid audience reaction. There are villains in media, especially in literature, where authors have expressed confusion or even revulsion over the fandom perceiving their villains as being attractive. I think there's also an objective trope to be made of villains being sexier than heroes that doesn't just go under Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains, because it's not always about stripperific outfits.

I just don't find any of the current options to "fix" this trope compelling.

Edited by PhiSat on Jul 7th 2023 at 10:08:51 AM

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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#36: Jul 7th 2023 at 9:19:02 AM

[up]Then what do you want to do? This is already an Audience Reaction for audiences finding villains sexy (the first sentence of its entry on YMMV.Home Page is simply "Being sexually attracted to a villain", and everything after that is simply explaining the subjectivity instead of the definition), but only a single wick in the wick check fits that definition, while quite a few wicks are objective, so the definition you prefer is already the current definition, but the examples don't fit it.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 7th 2023 at 11:25:29 AM

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PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#37: Jul 7th 2023 at 9:28:37 AM

Since making an audience reaction to catch the subjective examples is not on the table, I don't know. What I'm guessing will happen if we make this an objective trope though is that in a year people are going to want to disambiguate it because they won't understand why the trope exists when Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains and the other tropes already listed under Evil Is Sexy exist.

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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#38: Jul 7th 2023 at 9:32:22 AM

Nobody said keeping subjective examples was off the table. I said a broader Audience Reaction for audiences finding any character sexy without it being intentional isn't on the table because it would be bound to have the same problems as Fetish Fuel and Memetic Sex God.

I did say I'm against the former, but that was just my personal opinion and not a mod statement. Only the latter was officially ruled out.

Edit: I already went over which one is on the table and which isn't.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 7th 2023 at 11:35:52 AM

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DukePresley Since: Dec, 2016
#39: Jul 7th 2023 at 9:33:13 AM

I support Sulkies' proposal to indexify it and move the trope part to an objective trope with a new name.

Edited by DukePresley on Jul 7th 2023 at 9:35:07 AM

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#40: Jul 7th 2023 at 9:48:00 AM

I’d like to clarify the scope of the proposed objective trope before giving a full [tup]. I understand the enforced trope /Hays Code wonkery/heroes need to be pure role models aspects of it all, but I’m having trouble picturing what a good example for it would look like without a comparison to the heroes or some other context.

Something like “Alice is evil, is played by a hot actress and wears a bikini” doesn’t really tell me anything on its own — for all I know everyone in the work dresses like a stripper regardless of alignment. On the other hand, Alice the morally ambiguous Femme Fatale vs Beatrice the wholesome and friendly Girl Next Door does make a statement about sexiness and evil, even if both girls wear bikinis.

The frustration with Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains seem to be that it’s limited to design, isn’t actually about overall sexiness, and forces a strict comparison. Are we looking at something like Sensuality Is Evil? A combination of design, attitude, or role in the story? Just the insinuation that dressing, looking, or acting sexy is immoral? Or is that already Sex Is Evil?

Edited by Synchronicity on Jul 7th 2023 at 11:54:05 AM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#41: Jul 7th 2023 at 10:21:48 AM

On the subject of what would count, I previously said I wondered if a design-based objective trope would be a Trope in Aggregate (here), but nobody commented either way, even though I feel it would make a difference when it comes to judging what counts.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 7th 2023 at 12:26:12 PM

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MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#42: Jul 7th 2023 at 10:48:07 AM

Basically, I don’t think it needs to be a Trope in Aggregate as long as the villains being sexualized is used as a contrast to non-sexualized heroes. For a hypothetical objective example:

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DukePresley Since: Dec, 2016
#43: Jul 7th 2023 at 10:57:46 AM

[up][up][up]I'd say it's a combination of sexual attitude, demeanor and role not just design as you mentioned. An example for objective trope would be from the first Overlord video game. The "good" mistress is relatively wholesome while the "evil" mistress is an overtly sexual seductress gold digger.

Edited by DukePresley on Jul 7th 2023 at 11:00:39 AM

BlackMage43 Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
#44: Jul 7th 2023 at 11:07:27 AM

[up][up] You think the comparison with the "chaste" heroes should be a requirement? It currently isn't as it's written and the examples in the wick check aren't written with it in mind. The idea is also very close to what Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains is.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#45: Jul 7th 2023 at 11:16:13 AM

But without the comparison, it just becomes “villain who is sexy”, which as mentioned isn’t particularly notable, especially in a series where every character is sexy like an Ecchi action series. WITH the comparison, it has a meaning in which sexiness is associated with evil; in short, the idea behind the objective trope should be “sexy character = villain”. It could be that the work is preaching Sex Is Evil, or it could be a way of complying with a Hays Code-esque restriction that only villains are allowed to act and dress “immorally”. As for Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains, I think they probably should be merged as skimpy outfits are one aspect of “sexy character = villain” that I do of think are truly seperate enough from the other aspects to make any meaningful difference.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#46: Jul 7th 2023 at 11:19:25 AM

If anything, I'd be down for an Evil Is Sensual trope, because that is at least about characterization and not design, which we currently seem to be lacking under the Evil Is Sexy subtropes. If it becomes about design that just becomes Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains or Villainous Fashion Sense.

Edited by PhiSat on Jul 7th 2023 at 12:21:11 PM

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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#47: Jul 7th 2023 at 11:30:01 AM

Basically, I don’t think it needs to be a Trope in Aggregate as long as the villains being sexualized is used as a contrast to non-sexualized heroes.

I agree that it wouldn't be a Trope in Aggregate if contrasting with the heroes is a requirement. I was referring to whether it would be if it didn't have that requirement, since I'm not sure if everyone is in favor of having the contrast requirement.

As for whether Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains would be redundant with a trope that has a contrast requirement (I don't think the inverse would be true due to the latter being broader and not narrower), maybe we could handle such a situation like how Bald of Authority's launch (which was part of Bald Of Awesome's TRS thread) led to Bald Black Leader Guy being merged with it after being deemed The Same, but More Specific due to Bald of Authority having a stronger authority requirement than Bald Of Awesome. More specifically, we could focus on make a broader trope for contrasting heroes and villains, and if that renders Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains The Same, but More Specific, we could tackle that with a later thread.

I think a trope that involves contrasting heroes and villains would work (and as I said, determining whether its creation would result in Sensible Heroes, Skimpy Villains being a valid subtrope or The Same, but More Specific could be tackled later), and I think the Evil Is Sensual trope suggestion would also work.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 7th 2023 at 1:41:19 PM

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MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#48: Jul 7th 2023 at 11:43:10 AM

What would be the difference between “Chaste Heroes, Sexy Villains” and “Evil Is Sensual”, though?

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#49: Jul 7th 2023 at 11:48:04 AM

Now that you mention it, I'm not sure if there would be a difference, but I suppose both of those could be options for a name crowner.

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WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#50: Jul 7th 2023 at 12:36:04 PM

Whoo hoo, I can post again! That was one stressful glitch [lol]

I took a look back at the wick check and saw that the objective examples were split between three different uses:

  • Villain is generically attractive
  • Villain dresses sexily or appealingly
  • Villain acts seductive

I think the first one is the weakest definition, but the other two are useful as a springboard if we're looking for a definition.

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