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TheDeadSkin
topic
11:30:42 AM Sep 2nd 2014
edited by 179.211.71.181
Should all creator names in the list be bolded for easier reading?
SeptimusHeap
12:17:33 PM Sep 2nd 2014
I don't think that is good style, in my mind. Rewriting the entries to put the names at the start? Maybe.
Daniel1559
topic
11:25:15 AM Aug 3rd 2014
edited by 99.237.98.220
Should CBCT(Carter Bays & Craig Thomas) be on here? Or is this a Broken Base overracting again? Yes it was only one episode at the very end but the finale to their show seemed to have given them a really bad image amoung the entertainment industry and may have prevented them from making HIMYD.

Admittly I've never watched HIMYM just stumbled upon this ending, but yeah.
SeptimusHeap
11:51:39 AM Aug 3rd 2014
First, let's not use acronyms without explaining them. HIMYM is How I Met Your Mother and HIMYD is the spin-off mentioned here. Seems like the quality or reception of the works didn't really play a role (more like Creative Differences), so they should not be cited for this trope.
supergod
topic
11:51:21 AM Jul 27th 2014
I mentioned this one the locked pages thread, but that Jeph Loeb example really needs to be cleaned up. The whole thing about Batman:Hush being a failure isn't really true, and the opinion that Hush is a crappy character isn't really the prevailing one. Not only is the book one of the most popular recent Batman stories, but the character, Hush, is extremely popular to the point where people wanted him to be in Nolan's films. There are other problems with this page (and I personally think that it should be purged and that entries should require a Complete Monster sort of process), but that one's the most glaring.
Shaoken
04:31:24 AM Aug 1st 2014
This is a Darth Wiki page, its meant to be full of negativity. No purging and no cleanup efforts.
supergod
05:23:17 PM Sep 15th 2014
edited by 86.99.197.72
But there usually should be some basis to the negativity, otherwise anything could be added. There's a reason that there are rules on the Wallbangers and So Bad, It's Horrible pages. It should logically be even stricter for a page that's mainly used to bash creators (whether that's the actually what the page is intended for or not). There's even a note at the end saying that entries should only be added if there's clear public backlash, and it's not just based on your own personal opinion. While Jeph Loeb does get a lot of flak, it's not because of this comic. Mentioning that it "flopped horribly" is a bit of a lie, when it's generally well received (and yes there are obviously going to be detractors, but not enough for it to be considered a critical failure). It's also one of the most popular recent Batman stories, which should automatically disqualify it, no matter what the critical response is. It was number 10 on IGN's top Batman stories of all time (and whatever your opinion on IGN is, that still counts for something). The "purge" part is not important, but this entry should definitely be taken off.
SeptimusHeap
02:34:35 AM Sep 16th 2014
Well, you can bring up problematic examples and example writeups here and we'll review them.

Anyhow, Jeph Loeb's wikipedia entry makes his inclusion here questionable. The long list of bullet points looks almost like it's grasping at straws to justify their inclusion. I would remove that entry.
supergod
06:02:19 AM Sep 16th 2014
I think some of his works could justify him being there, like Ultimatum, but it would probably need a better write up.
Yuki-Akuma
topic
01:01:12 AM Jul 12th 2014
Could we add Creator/Pixar to this list? They are the fallen creator of the entire animated film industry at this point.
LogoP
01:26:08 AM Jul 12th 2014
Not really.
SeptimusHeap
01:38:18 AM Jul 12th 2014
Aye, zero evidence that they are fallen. So no.
Shaoken
04:32:14 AM Aug 1st 2014
Really? Because Pixar to date as far as I know have never made a bad movie. Even making one bad movie wouldn't be enough for them to be on this page.
CrowTR0bot
topic
06:17:59 PM Jun 27th 2014
Can DC Simpson still be considered a Fallen Creator? Her newest webcomic, Heavenly Nostrils seems both reasonably popular and devoid of the problems of its predecessors.
SeptimusHeap
02:07:17 AM Jun 28th 2014
Aye, with that entry it seems like we've are dealing with a Temporarily Less Popular Creator.
AyaReiko
topic
02:42:02 AM Jun 26th 2014
Now that Edge of Tomorrow crashed and burned, I think a slight revision to Tom Cruise's entry might be in order.
SeptimusHeap
08:36:13 AM Jun 26th 2014
Might want to offer that up here.
ReiKusanagi
topic
06:51:19 PM Mar 16th 2014
Could a note be added to the Gunpei Yokoi part about despite how Nintendo treated him, fans remember him fondly and tend to blame the virutal boy's failure on it getting pushed out too soon?
SeptimusHeap
09:13:15 AM Mar 17th 2014
No, that sounds like it would be Natter of the "contesting edit" variety.
WillBGood
topic
03:08:27 PM Mar 4th 2014
Need to put a bullet before the Tod Browning entry.
ReiKusanagi
06:41:27 PM Mar 16th 2014
Among a few others, whoever did the editing recently did a sloppy job.
Koveras
topic
03:45:54 AM Feb 25th 2014
Can someone update Richard Garriot's entry? He not just doing Poker games anymore, he is making Shroud of the Avatar, which was funded on Kickstarter, proving that he's not so fallen, after all...
SeptimusHeap
05:07:48 AM Feb 25th 2014
You can ask here. That said, I think it's a bit too early to remove him - we don't know if this work will be a success.
kensu
topic
11:34:06 AM Dec 25th 2013
How has the entry on Kevin J. Anderson survived as long as it has? Not only did Kevin J. Anderson NOT write Dark Empire, the comic series predates all of the "good" examples cited. I don't think the entry is salvageable; it should be cut.
BobBensonIsHomunculus
topic
12:08:43 AM Nov 26th 2013
The Annie Rice entry talks about her being popular with "the GLBT community and yaoi fans" ...shouldn't the latter be changed to "slash" fans, since it's probably talking about people who write Slash Fic? I know they get confused a lot on the Internet, but yaoi is simply a genre of anime, and the vast majority of fans who like Boy On Boy Is Hot in Western media like Anne Rice are not actually fans of yaoi itself.
ReiKusanagi
10:58:35 PM Jan 5th 2014
to most it's one and the same by now.
OllyOllyOxenFrei
topic
03:25:20 AM Oct 18th 2013
edited by 198.102.219.143
Not sure why Molly Ringwald, Robin Williams, Tom Cruise, or Meg Ryan are on this list, but I'm going to request their deletion unless someone can enlighten me.
ReiKusanagi
09:57:46 PM Nov 23rd 2013
Tom Cruise has some decent reasons (his whole scienctology thing and related nutty moments) but the others might have had problems but I doubt people think less of them, same with Sean Conery (sure his career might not have been that great but people love him)
Shaoken
12:19:23 AM Dec 1st 2013
Well the trope is basically "they once were great but now they aren't as great." For the Robin Williams entry to use an example whilst he's still good, compared to the 90s he's not as highly thought of anymore. Hell the entry even says his work is still good, it's just that he has a shadow of the popularity he had in his heyday.

Pretty much all of them (which have the reasons why they're on this list in their examples) were big stars during their peek, but have fallen a lot further than just the passage of time would be responsible for.
ReiKusanagi
10:59:46 PM Jan 5th 2014
I thought a key point in this is basically ruining one's reputation in the process, not just falling into obscurity/being a relic of the past.
Shaoken
03:26:35 AM Jan 24th 2014
It's what this trope has been known for, but it's not a strict requirements. And I specified that this was when a star's reputation falls a lot further than what the simple passage of time would be responsible for. To use Robin Williams again, he was insanely popular in the 90s but had a massive drop off over the course of a few years that simply doesn't happen to your normal actor (whose descent in popularity occurs over a much longer time span, except for the rare few whose popularity never really fades and gets looked back on fondly even by people who weren't around for the original run).
Laevatein
topic
01:17:59 PM Oct 13th 2013
Did Gene Roddenberry avert this via Author Existence Failure? I've heard in a couple of places that he became obsessed with Star Trek's "vision" to the point that a lot of the problems in early TNG can be traced back to him, but he died before he could ruin his reputation the way George Lucas has.
Shaoken
11:23:42 PM Oct 13th 2013
I think it helps that back then a lot of what he did wouldn't have been public knowledge, so his reputation remained intact. Had the internet existed during that time he probably would be on this list too but since he was long since dead by the time most of this stuff came up it people's opinions of him have set.
shadowrevolution
topic
11:28:55 PM Sep 29th 2013
Nearly a year later and they only have 152 Million left in hte bank, can Capcom be on the list now? http://gaminrealm.com/2013/09/10/capcom-152-mil-bank/
Shaoken
01:01:31 PM Oct 13th 2013
edited by 27.33.67.126
No since it's still too early to judge. $150 million isn't a lot of money, but it's not an automatic death sentance. When Capcom can't make a hit game period they'd count, but for they still have an Xbox One launch title coming up (Dead Rising 3) along with a few more games in development, so they haven't hit this stage yet.
shadowrevolution
10:36:45 PM Oct 18th 2013
Still given the recent string of duds like Lost Planet 3, Remember Me, DMC Devil May Cry, the terrible Megaman Silver Anniversary and the recent Resident Evil. The only thing really left being Monster Hunter and Street Fighter, they really don't got much to go on.
shadowrevolution
01:34:09 AM Oct 21st 2013
Also, recent news about them being unable to make a next gen fighter shows how far they have fallen

http://gaminrealm.com/2013/10/20/capcom-cant-make-next-gen-fighter/

Midna
08:38:26 PM Oct 21st 2013
You're forgetting Ace Attorney.
ReiKusanagi
10:00:47 PM Nov 23rd 2013
While Capcom's reputation isn't completely ruined, their handling has basically betrayed chunks of their fanbase. That article is a distrubing sign alright considering all things (such the money they're supposedly making from their fighters, how the PS 4/etc doesnt' seem to be that big of a leap,etc)

Once the fighting game market dies down (Again), they'll be in trouble just due to how many other bridges they've burned.
shadowrevolution
10:04:56 PM Jun 17th 2014
edited by 96.49.236.63
Shaoken
12:27:42 AM Jul 2nd 2014
edited by 27.33.67.126
Not until it's all said and done. All that article states is that the shareholders removed the complete buyout protection, not that anyone is interested in buying them out. When someone buys a majority of the shares and basically takes the whole company out from under them then it's done, but right now it's just more of what we already knew.

Yes they are in a bad spot, but if Marvel Comics can declare bankruptcy and bounce back then Capcom is not in the grave yet.

...if you want to draft up an example though I wouldn't blame you.
shadowrevolution
12:21:59 PM Jul 7th 2014
edited by 96.49.240.174
  • Capcom sadly seems to be headed down this route. First they already had a reputation for Capcom Sequel Stagnation, as evidenced by their Trope Namer status. Then in 2010, Keiji Inafune quit along with other creative minds that made Capcom successful, leading to a mediocre silver anniversary for Megaman, dismal sales of games like Resident Evil 6 and Lost Planet 3 and the sheer amount of bile and controversy as their blindness to the market by pumping out more DLC rather than new games led to fans growing disillusioned with Capcom as their finances are slowly wasting away with only 150 Million at one point which has caused Capcom to become a former shell of itself.
SeptimusHeap
12:32:19 PM Jul 7th 2014
That writeup needs namespace fixing. Also, the "former shell of itself" is hyperbolic - there is nothing to indicate that they are that bad yet.
madgodzulcan
07:52:41 PM Jul 7th 2014
Instead of blindness to the market maybe have something like suicidal business practices just to stress how many... well stupid decisions they have made.

I would just put that they effectively put themselves up for sale after the 150 million part.
Shaoken
11:42:51 PM Jul 7th 2014
The first sentence screams "this is not an example please delete me." There is no "seems to be headed down this route", you either are or you aren't. And that last sentence is waaaaaaaaaay too long (considering that it's a six line example with only three sentences, the first two not going beyond the start of the second line) and word cruft.

But until such a point as Capcom actually declaring bankruptcy (which I will state again Marvel Comics actually did in the 90s and bounced back from rather well) they can't qualify since the other video game companies either are out of the business entirely or their last few releases have been complete failures in every sense of the word with no shining rays on the horizon.
shadowrevolution
10:14:13 AM Jul 9th 2014
Forgive me, I was using an older article as a template

Capcom have become another fallen creator of the new tens. First they already had a reputation for Capcom Sequel Stagnation, as evidenced by their Trope Namer status. Then in 2010, Keiji Inafune quit along with other creative minds that made Capcom successful, leading to a mediocre silver anniversary for Megaman, dismal sales of games like Resident Evil 6 and Lost Planet 3 with extremely negative reviews and absolutely horrible sales and the sheer amount of bile and controversy as their blindness to the market by pumping out more DLC rather than new games led to fans growing disillusioned with Capcom and quickly jumping ship as Ono states how they are not capable of developing a next generation Street Fighter game due to dwindling finance. With finances are wasting away with only 150 Million at one point which has caused Capcom to become fallen from the graces of gaming industries where both the press and fans mock them.
Shaoken
topic
09:38:15 PM Sep 21st 2013
edited by 121.127.208.109
Can we swap out the last two lines for Silicon Knights? The current one is;

  • "Most would, however, like a return to the world of Eternal Darkness, with the release of the Wii U on the horizon, and the fact they don't have the same problem as Rare. They may be able to Win Back The Crowd... "

But in the meantime their two attempts to make a spiritual sequal to ED have failed, and according to former employees who have left the only reason games like Eternal Darkness were so great was because they had Nintendo forcing quality control, and once given free reign the owner was content to screw around on other games, having considered the previous quality control needless interfering on Nintendo's part.

My proposal is to replace the quoted lines with;

  • Comments by former employees paint a bleak picture for how Silicon Knights' was run, with the owner resenting Nintendo's quality control measures when developing Eternal Darkness and intentionally missing deadlines for X-Men Destiny to force Activision to continue funding development. As of September 2013 both attempts to crowdsource for a spiritual sucessor to Eternal Darkness have fallen short of their goals, and the goodwill gained from their previous hits having seemingly evaporated in light of the allegations against it.
Severen
topic
06:51:34 PM Aug 16th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.44
This is nothing but a personal political rant. It needs to go:

  • The result of his retooled "Batman Vs Al-Qaeda" book is out now... and even if one had never known that it began as a Batman story it's obvious Miller barely did anything to change the fact that the Fixer is Batman, the Cat-Burgler is Catwoman, and the policeman is Commisioner Gordon. Holy Terror can be described as a vehement anti-Muslim Author Tract-filled political cartoon, similar to the others which were created in the first frantic year after 9/11. Any doubts about his recent writing style (as of ASBAR) being self parody are dispelled as Miller's "patriotism" and xenophobia are presented completely seriously. The whole book is a message that Muslims need to be stopped as they could become terrorists at any point. Just when you thought Frank Miller couldn't sink any lower...

  • His reputation has been hurt even more by his vitriolic attack on the Occupy Wall Street movement whom he referred to as "Thieves, rapists and pond scum" and managed to fit even more attacks on Islam. Its as if Frankie boy has been reading comments about him online and thinking "How can I make myself even worse than They think I am?".

The Occupy rant has nothing to do with his works, and thus has no place on the page.

Holy Terror, while not well-received by a good deal of the (admittedly biased) comic critics, led comic sales when it was first released, and continues to sell well, indicating that the public may not agree with the critical assessment. It also has several fans in the mainstream comic industry, including Jim Lee, Erik Larsen, Dave Gibbons and Mark Millar, who called it "Genuinely the most fun I've had reading a comic in a decade." Not exactly the credentials of a comic "hated across the board", as its detractors have been claiming.

Oh, and according to said detractors, it's apparently a hate crime to whisper even the faintest criticism of Islam.

Frank's star has only fallen amongst an extremely Vocal Minority. His works (two of which recently got well-received animated adaptations) continue to sell well, and two films based on his works will be released in the coming year. He shows no signs of slowing down.
Shaoken
08:06:28 PM Sep 7th 2013
Uh no, his star has fallen. Note that it's only his pre-Sin City works that are held in high regard. You don't hear people talking about how great The Spirit was, nobdoy is holding The Dark Knight Strikes Back as being anywhere near The Dark Knight Returns in quality, that it's selling is not a indication of it's quality (and it only led Graphic Novel sales, not comic book sales which went to DC), and considering what Miller has said on record in real life about Muslim's it's not a faint criticism of Islam, it's outright racism against them.
Katsuhagi
08:20:26 PM Sep 7th 2013
The fact that DC refused to publish Holy Terror or allow it to be about Batman as he planned is a pretty good indicator that he's lost a lot of the influence he once had. It also got completely lambasted by critics and the opinion that his work has declined is not a minority one.
ReiKusanagi
10:03:40 PM Nov 23rd 2013
the Occupy Rant refers to his reputation as what someone does outside their work can affect their rep as badly (if not more so) than what they do with their work.

That and in many places Frank miller has become a joke, synomous with grimderp and excessive use of prostitutes.
OldManHoOh
topic
12:01:32 AM Aug 6th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.42
Liz and Dick, and in particular, Lohan's performance in it, was pretty savaged as I recall. I don't think Lindsay Lohan's career is really looking up, now it's mid-2013.
Willbyr
moderator
topic
03:53:03 PM Aug 5th 2013
I've moved this section here because, AFAIK, there doesn't seem to be enough "fallen" to these creators to justify their being here, especially with these sketchy writeups. Thoughts?

  • For several people, Tite Kubo is heading this way. While Bleach was originally well received for its quirky characters, awesome fights, and an insane plot twist in the Soul Society arc, for many, things went way downhill afterwards. A massive case of Arc Fatigue, many odd plot threads, and Aizen being turned into a Villain Sue have caused many people to start hating the series, and Kubo himself has been accused of trolling his fanbase.
  • Masashi Kishimoto as well, with Creator's Pet Sasuke Uchiha being such a Base Breaker and all the Wham Episodes and Mind Screws of recent chapters of Naruto. Much like Tite Kubo, fans are considering him a Trolling Creator for these reasons.

Katsuhagi
04:08:21 PM Aug 5th 2013
I agree, and the fact is that the titles are still selling well in both the US and Japan, so it just seems like a few fans complaining.
Wyldchyld
02:08:34 PM Aug 10th 2013
Plus, this is only Tite Kubo's second work. His first was cancelled so Bleach is his first success, and the Bleach fandom has been volatile in terms of praise and criticism from the very beginning. He doesn't strike me as ever having had the sort of adoration and "untouchability" that's required for a creator to become this trope. He's always had mixed reviews, and Bleach's volume sales are as steady now as they were when it first began.
ReiKusanagi
10:05:35 PM Nov 23rd 2013
I'm inclined to agree as they haven't really fallen as A) they never reached godly peaks and B) haven't fallen low.

The Fallen creator point would be when their usual fans feel betrayed by things.
MightyKombat
topic
11:33:54 AM Aug 5th 2013
Can we remove or edit this bit form the Sean Connery art?

" To say he 'had a stellar career through all the '60s, '70s, and '80s' is to paint things a little rosier than they were. While he was in two hit films during the '70s, they were the All-Star Cast Murder on the Orient Express and A Bridge Too Far, he was also in Zardoz and had lots of trouble getting work by the 80s. He was then in the adaptation of The Name Of The Rose for very little money, but it proved to be his comeback. That same year he did Highlander and the next he won his only Academy Award for The Untouchables."

Its pure Natter and violating Repair, Don't Respond.
lrrose
11:35:12 AM Aug 5th 2013
Edit requests for locked pages go here.
Willbyr
moderator
06:35:22 PM Aug 11th 2013
I've pulled the entire section for re-evaluation and for the issues originally mentioned:

ReiKusanagi
09:43:43 PM Oct 9th 2013
His career might not be that great, though people still think highly of him for the most part.
DarthLink22
topic
10:09:16 AM Jun 23rd 2013
The Ken Penders entry under comics needs updating. The line below:

"Even after he left the comic and Archie, he managed to make things worse by trying to sue for the rights to his original characters from the Knuckles series, even though everyone in the comic is owned by Sega."

Updated:

"Even after he left the comic and Archie, he managed to make things worse by trying to sue for the rights to his original characters from the Knuckles series. This was a ridiculed decision, but when he apparently had a case, resulting in the comic losing a good deal of the characters in the middle of a story line, it really got the fandom going."
biznizz
topic
04:48:24 AM May 1st 2013
Should there be a mention in the Orson Scott Card entry on the reaction to the news that he was going to write a story for the "Adventures of Superman" anthology series? And how, because of it, the artist left and the story may never be published?
shadowrevolution
topic
10:52:51 PM Apr 15th 2013
Does NISA fit as a Fallen Creator, the PS3 era has been really bad for them, going from a respectable company to one that is shadow of it's former self. Neptunia, Mugen Souls and similar games have been received very negatively by critics everywhere.
ReiKusanagi
04:36:20 AM Apr 30th 2013
Good question though it may be debated as it still has a core fanbase, though one not well thought of by others.

But its course is generally disapointing since its emergence as it seems to get by on disgaea and idea factory colabs (which tend to driven by cameos, fanservice, jokes, and or references not light on much else). And then there's their record with localizations, which ranges from so-so dubbing at least to outright wasting space on the disc at worse.

Some do think it would be better if NIS/NISA teamed up with Atlus and let them do the localizing of things.
MegaJ
topic
03:08:27 PM Apr 4th 2013
The Brian Michael Bendis needs to be removed, last time I checked, he's still at Marvel writing for X-Men, and his books still sell huge. That bit just seems like complaining.
supergod
04:38:34 PM Mar 4th 2014
It is really. I'm have many complaints about Bendis's work, but I know I'm in a minority. This page is too hopeless to even bother editing, or I would have done it myself.
TheFarmboy
topic
05:10:11 PM Apr 3rd 2013
There needs to be an update for the Video Game section. LucasArts is now closed down after Disney aqquired Lucas Films due to lack of profit, sadly cancelling projects like Star Wars 1313.
ReiKusanagi
topic
05:51:51 PM Mar 29th 2013
I don't think Sean Connery should be included as last time I checked people had a rather favorable impression of him, even in spite of his questionable career.
ReiKusanagi
topic
03:48:50 AM Mar 10th 2013
edited by ReiKusanagi
While Square-Enix has been mentioned in passing I'd like to mention them directly. While not a 100% fallen creator due to their side publishing but for most of the RPG community, the Square side has effectively squandered what good will was left after X-2 and XII. I say Square side as it and its money grubbing president, Yoichi Wada are the problem areas. Enix and their series maintain their reputation in spite of this.

Its major falling points would be FFXIII, an obviously linear RPG with some redeeming traits and FFXIV an spiritual sequel to FFXI that had one hell of a bad start (and a major case of Never Live It Down) hence their attempted reboot of the game. This marked a vicious 180 towards the whole genre by the media/masses that once loved it.

The Kingdom hearts series while commercially successful, its plot line is becoming more and more tangled (due to its producer's insistence on surprises) is another factor.

Another strike against Square is how it's lesser known series (Mana, SaGa) were no longer released here at best (SaGa who enjoyed a good string of western releases since SaGa Frontier) and put out to pasture at worse (The Mana series after Dawn of Mana aka Kingdom Hearts testbed flopped.)

But the Coupe De Grace? Final Fantasy XIII-2 a game that proceeds take 20 steps backwards while walking 5 forward that many RPG fans have sworn off of Square.

It's to the point where Square is a joke in the RPG community compared to perhaps the biggest name during the days of the Snes and Playstation.

It won't entirely die but barring Wada getting removed and making a few miracles happen, it's highly unlikely that Square will recover its reputation among RP Gers any time soon. I'm surprised Enix hasn't tried selling Square yet.

The cause of the merger and likely Wada's tactics, The Spirits Within (written by Mr. Sakaguchi, producer of most of Final fantasty) should be noted, though Sakaguchi voluntarily resigned in wake of the movie flopping and some may consider him this though I would beg to differ mainly that his new company Mistwalker rarely gets high profile venues (they mainly made games for the 360 or Wii, systems ignored by most RP Gers) or sizable budgets among other things. So while their games may not be on par with Square's stuff, they're doing pretty good for the resources they do have. But until Mistwalker gets a good shot, I don't think Sakaguchi'll get his chance to recover.

Edit: I realize most of this has been coveread already. But I don't recall Dragon Quest getting pushed off to the side as the last few major games got releases in the US including Dragon Quest IX.

I would also like to remark that it's Rumored that the Chrono series is basically dead due to the DS port of Chrono Trigger didn't sell as much as Wada wanted (no duh seeing how it got one port already and Square Enix flooded the DS with RPG ports to such a point plans to release certain ones in the west got halted.)

A timeline of Square so to speak just to make up for it.

Pre-FF: Just a small note gaming company that came upon hard times.

FF 1: Saves square and helps form the jRPG genre

NES/GB era: Square experiments with its future games (Saga, Mana), most of which isn't seen in the west but the west would see the fruits later on.

Snes era: Square comes on to their own establishing themselves as a big name in jRPGs (with help from Nintendo) with Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Secret of mana (as well as the games NOT released in the US) Only Enix is considered its equal (and that's with how their presence in the US got marginalized then)

PSX: Era the age of jRPG begins with Square as its ruler as well as a time of experimentation by Square, producing surprising hits and various japan only RPG series coming out in the west in addition to the grand return of Enix making an impact with Valkyrie profile, Star Ocean 2, and Dragon Quest 7.

The Spirits within: I can't say what was going on in Sakaguchi's mind when he wrote this, but after news of its failure hit, Square started to focus on money making. Around this time a new pecking order was established when it was clear only RP Gs with Square's graphics and budges would be the mega-hits, leading some aspiring companies to draw back, leaving Enix among a few others as competition.

PS2 Era/Merger: Square's money making policies were in effect as there's no real experimentation to be seen for the most part with Kingdom Hearts's birth being a clear cash cow creation (that wasn't that bad). During this era, signs of jRPG excesses started to wear out their welcome such as long cinemas. It's assumed that Chrono Cross and Dawn of Mana were adversely affected by Square's policies while XII is all but outright confirmed for such a thing. Some could argue this is where Square's decline began though it was subtle at this point (mainly caused by XII and X-2).

PS3/Post PS2 era: This is where Square proceeds to decline at a high speed with over porting some of their classic hits, flooding the DS with so many RP Gs that its competition partially gave up their release plans, all the while with no sign of the DS remarks of the original SaGa/Final Fantasy Legend games. Square's mistakes along with ill timed rapid western releases of games made by the infamous Idea Factory, the age of RP Gs ended with a whimper.... and a teabagging (as the age of the Brown gritty FPS took over)
shadowrevolution
05:53:05 PM Mar 28th 2013
Also to add salt in the wound

PC Era: Square Enix decides to adopt a bunch of gaming companies, while the PC companies prosper under Square Enix, Front Mission was the ultimate victim. Front Mission as a series was simply marketable on their own but with Evolved it ruined the good name of the Franchise

Also, Wada has recently resigned so it needs to be updated.
ReiKusanagi
05:54:56 PM Mar 29th 2013
edited by ReiKusanagi
To be honest, the Front Mission series was basically finished after 5 (as in that was the planned last chapter/entry), though the fact they mis-marketed the series for the most part doesn't help. Front Mission Evolved was yet another failed attempt at japanese companies to make a grab at the western market.

Wada resigning is good news, now to see if the company picks itself out of the hole it dug. It'll take more than Wada leaving to fix things.

Another big step: getting Nomura away from the writer's desk as sooner or later he'll write Kingdom Hearts into the ground (the fact there's some Kudzu Plot going on right now is not a good sign and with his "fondness of surprises", I don't see things getting better).
shadowrevolution
07:53:33 PM Mar 31st 2013
It didn't grabbed it correctly. Front Mission Dog Life and Dog Style Manga (published by Young Gan Gan) which is the HBO of manga, had the right kind of mindset. It felt like Band of Brothers but Evolved instead was like Gundam00 with Motomu Toriyama at the helm of Evolve's storywriting. It went as well as everyone expected.

Here's a hint to Square Enix, it doesn't have to be Call of Duty. It simply has to be like Berserk or Band of Brothers. Nothing like sex, violence and morally questionable protagonists to get the ball rolling.
ReiKusanagi
09:44:38 PM Oct 9th 2013
edited by 67.184.110.183
An update for the Square Enix thing, mainly at the moment their hopes seem to rest upon FFXV for a quick redemption.

Though I would say Toriyama (forgot his first name), the producer of the games with Lightning in them might be a minor one as he seems to be stained the "XIII" name so badly Versus is now being called FFXV

I heard some damning things as of late, such as someone doing a terrible FFX-2 sequel novel and that this person is doing the writing for FFXV. Though hard to say if this is 100% true or not without proof.
ReiKusanagi
11:06:13 PM Jan 5th 2014
edited by 67.184.110.183
An attempted bump, but I should add that the general venom fans have for square is increasing, for among other things finding out how they bungled things like the Front Mission Series in the west (basically they dragged their feet on releasing a two pack of the first two games but then decided to release the third game instead, which was different than most in the series. Then they followed it up with the latest one, which didn't sell well for a mix of reasons, including being compared to 3)
supergod
04:35:04 PM Mar 4th 2014
I think it's also worth noting that their Eidos/European division seems to be doing better with Deus Ex: Human Revolution, Tomb Raider and Thief getting good to decent receptions.
MightyKombat
topic
07:30:39 AM Feb 5th 2013
Can we remove the "To be fair" part from the Stephanie Meyer bit? I'm pretty sure its both a Justifying Edit and a violation of Repair, Don't Respond
Larkmarn
07:34:28 AM Feb 5th 2013
edited by Larkmarn
... honestly, I don't think Stephanie Meyer belongs on this list at all. While I'm not a fan of her work, she's still absurdly successful and not enough time has passed since her (absurdly successful) Twilight Sage. She hasn't even released any works yet, and I don't think that her fandom has lost much faith in her as a whole. She hasn't had a flop, she hasn't really lost prestige (... in so much as she never really had much from most of the people complaining about the book, and her own fandom doesn't really seem to care). Sounds more like it's less Fallen Creator and more that the hatedom felt like it got fuel for the fire.
MightyKombat
10:39:51 AM Feb 20th 2013
Maybe.

But yeah the Justifying Edit needs to go at least.
shoboni
topic
10:53:25 AM Jan 15th 2013
edited by shoboni
I'd debate Don Bluth being here, alot of people pretty much ignore his stinkers and still hold him highly for his good stuff.
SomeNewGuy
03:15:48 PM Jan 15th 2013
I think the point of his entry is that for all the amazing stuff he did, his stinkers ended up ruining his career.
shoboni
05:28:53 PM Feb 25th 2013
edited by shoboni
"Please, only give examples where it's clear that public opinion has pretty much turned against these people and they're not thought of as highly as before."

But it really didn't hurt his reputation any, which is what this trope seems to be about.
Mightymoose101
topic
09:48:31 PM Dec 12th 2012
Can someone add Silicon Knight's recent legal and financial situation to it's entry? What with them losing their lawsuit against Epic Games, subsequently being counter-sued and being made to pay them back millions of dollars and told to destroy all unsold copies of games built with the Unreal 3 Code, the company's essentially on life support now.
NCZ
topic
07:38:40 AM Oct 20th 2012
Why was Capcom removed? Look up "capcom worst company ever" and you'll find that since mid-2011, a ton of people have been claiming them to have gone downhill. So what if they're a "major and highly successful publisher"? So are EA and Activision, and they're widely despised among the gaming community. You can't deny that Street Fighter X Tekken, Dm C, Marvel VS Capcom 3, and Resident Evil 6 have been highly controversial, and the backlash over MML 3's cancellation was HUGE. They deserve a spot on the list.
SeptimusHeap
09:58:42 AM Nov 5th 2012
For starters, read the trope description. It's not about a company sucking; it's about a company falling permanently.
shadowrevolution
03:00:41 AM Feb 5th 2013
And how about Dm C failing to meet sales expectations and relying mostly on paid off reviews just to prevent naysayers from being justified.
Larkmarn
07:44:13 AM Feb 5th 2013
edited by Larkmarn
Capcom doesn't belong on this list. The games you listed? None of them were huge flops, DMC included. They still make solid games, but they also make some bad ones. How's that different from, say, Capcom ten years ago? Or 20? They've always been a hit-or-miss developer (Capcom Sequel Stagnation isn't named after Konami), but this isn't a page just for complaining about a few decisions and games they've made of late. And out of curiosity, do you have an article about them paying off reviews? Because that would be very interesting to me.

This was a good locking.
ReiKusanagi
05:33:55 AM Mar 10th 2013
The thing is Capcom is steadily wrecking its reputation among the gamers that supported it for a long time.

Dm C? Basically a middle finger to the DMC fanbase; those that still support it either are in massive denial or likely a part of the cult of Tatem.

Cancellation of MML 3 and Megaman Universe: Middle Finger to megaman fans and Keiji Inafune who left the company. The first major sign of Capcom going this route.

Selling fighting game revisions as new games? in the age of DLC there's no real excuse for that.

The only fanbase Capcom hasn't lost is the fighting game fanbase and who knows how long that'll last before they too get screwed over. Yeah the broken mess that was Street Fighter X Tekken didn't do much in that area.

As far as the review thing? It's a well known fact that the US gaming media reviews according to the ad money paid to the magazine if not more (Like Activision giving reviewers a nice resort vacation along with freebies that Gamepro editors admitted to taking in the magazine)

So most fans don't trust the reviewers as they will grade anything well if enough money is involved. Considering Activision's massive spoiling of reviewers and their Co D/MW series getting great reviews despite no real changes of note to the gameplay while bashing other games for rehashing...

And for Dm C to get such nice reviews despite being inferior to past games (as could be expected from a developer who is known for making nothing but making alright games)? There's only one natural conclusion to be made here.
supergod
04:42:40 PM Mar 4th 2014
DMC, from what I've seen has been actually well liked by a lot of people who weren't previously DMC fans (and I'm not talking about major reviewers, people like Nerdł and T Otal Bisuit have also given it positive reviews), so your arguments just seems like "I don't like this game, so nobody should"
asaqe
topic
09:43:00 AM Oct 2nd 2012
Can some add another entry to Capcom's fallen creator category with the game being critically panned.
MrDeath
10:07:01 AM Oct 2nd 2012
What game? And a game being critically panned doesn't make it this.
MightyKombat
06:38:49 PM Oct 2nd 2012
Probably talking about Resident Evil 6
asaqe
10:38:45 PM Oct 6th 2012
Yep, being blasted by critics is another sign of it being a fallen creator.
MightyKombat
07:38:56 AM Oct 7th 2012
There's also the case of Capcom's actions as of late.
asaqe
09:19:07 AM Oct 7th 2012
So what are we waiting for? Add the lacklustre RE 6 reviews to Capcom's entry.
MightyKombat
11:01:26 AM Oct 7th 2012
Its locked right now, you'll have to ask a mod such as Willbyr.
asaqe
09:02:49 PM Oct 14th 2012
How am I supposed to do that? I tried to goign to the forums to get it unlocked but no dice.
MightyKombat
09:18:50 AM Oct 15th 2012
PM him if you can.
Kuuenbu
topic
11:25:11 PM Sep 5th 2012
edited by Kuuenbu
Can we please unlock this page, if only to clean up some of the brain-hemorrhagely stupid entires in the "Music" section? Especially the ones on Metallica, Anthrax and Sepultura; the first two being blatantly niche-opiniated, if not factually inaccurate (calling Load a "bad version of grunge" when the music is rootsy, blues-styled Hard Rock that has almost nothing to do with Grunge or Alternative Rock), the third being devoid of some very important details (Max Cavalera, the founder, frontman, band leader and chief songwriter leaving the band is pretty significant, to say the least).

The Roger Waters entry is especially heinous. True, The Pros and Cons of Hitchhiking and Radio K.A.O.S. were commercial and critical flops, but his 1992 album Amused to Death has been wildly hailed as a Creator Comeback, and (along with The Final Cut) certainly more well received then the "Dehydrated Floyd" releases from Gilmour and co. (find me anyone willing to consider A Momentary Lapse of Reason anything more than a colossal mistake.

While we're on the topic of potential candidates, Clint Eastwood's, uh, "performance" at the RNC gives him a good chance of landing here, I might say. Let's see whether or not it tanks his next film.
SeptimusHeap
08:22:24 AM Sep 6th 2012
Ask on the threads linked on Locked Pages.
igordebraga
topic
06:49:53 PM Jul 12th 2012
Since it's locked... how about John Woo? Acclaimed Hong Kong action director. Successful crossover films. And after M:I:2, flopped twice, and resorted to a Chinese comeback and a videogame.
SeptimusHeap
01:53:26 AM Jul 13th 2012
^You want to add him? From the sound there he isn't an example
Azaram
topic
10:47:53 PM Jun 5th 2012
From the above, I understand why it's locked, but will someone please fix the spelling under the Lindsay Lohan bit? Is like fingernails on eyeballs...
Telcontar
moderator
12:53:06 AM Jun 6th 2012
You want this thread. Also, can I steal that wonderful/horrible similie for future use?
Azaram
11:12:11 PM Jun 6th 2012
Thanks. And Share and Enjoy. :)
biznizz
02:27:40 PM Jun 15th 2012
Sigh... another ME 3 fan-troll causes yet another locked page.

Quick question, will this page ever be unlocked again, like in a few months after the heat dies down?
Telcontar
moderator
03:23:53 PM Jun 15th 2012
Hopefully. Probably. That guy struck again earlier today, though, so it won't be for a good while yet.
biznizz
02:24:45 AM Jun 17th 2012
Damn. Where did he go this time? Mass Effect 3 pages have been locked down almost since the end of the first month, but I think he's been around Darth Wiki before.
xie323
topic
10:54:35 AM May 25th 2012
Why is this being removed?

  • While we're on the subject of video game publishers, we have Electronic Arts (EA) which publishes noteworthy titles such as EA Sports, Battlefield, The Sims, Medal of Honor, Command & Conquer, Dead Space, Mass Effect, and Dragon Age. However, recently they have come under fire from several sources after buying Bioware and releasing Dragon Age II, which many hated for it's linearity (everything you do makes things worse) and divergence from the gameplay structure of the first game. EA's guilt in this? Certain implications that they rushed the game while it was on early beta. This was made worse with draconian DRM, including the Origin service, which lacks the features available on Steam, runs poorly, and periodically scans the user's hard drive as well as removing all future EA games from it, forcing you to use the service. The capper was Mass Effect 3's Gainax Ending. Ever since people started reaching the end, accusations have been flying about EA rushing Bioware, leading to a incomprehensible, plothole-ridden, and just depressing ending. This has cause stock prices for EA to drop and the company to recieve the "2012 Worst Company in America Golden Poo Award". And that was after they were previously known for killing off Pandemic, Bullfrog, Westwood and Maxis completely.

Telcontar
moderator
11:18:29 AM May 25th 2012
Editor was a ban-evading troll. The entry is back now.
crazyrabbits
topic
04:11:54 PM Mar 15th 2012
edited by crazyrabbits
Removing this - again:

  • Bioware was noted for making a great deal of excellent CRPGs and the universally praised Dragon Age and Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic which was a retelling of A New Hope set in the Old Republic. However, Dragon Age 2 was not for its extreme railroading, repetitiveness and alienating the fanbase when Bioware could not handle the criticism properly and suffering from Internet Backlash as a result. Bioware since then has a lost a great deal of respect and Star Wars: The Old Republic is seen as a sinking ship where it is seen as an expensive attempt at challenging World of Warcraft for its crown only to see 300 million dollars go down the drain and desperate attempts to keep it from sinking. While Mass Effect 3 was critically acclaimed by critics, many fans felt extremely dissatisfied with a variety of things and Bioware definitely lost respect from its fans in what was supposed to be a celebrated final entry to the trilogy.

Yes, I know - everyone and their mother hates the ending of Mass Effect 3. You have no argument from me here. However, the game still sold close to 2 million copies in its first week. It's the highest selling title of the trilogy. Almost everyone who played the game said it was amazing up until the final 10 minutes.

This example was already deleted, not only by myself, but from several other users because it's the hardcore fanbase complaining about how Bioware Jumped the Shark because it's owned by EA (and a user was banned for continually readding it, even when his points were proven to be misleading). If there comes a time when a game sells far, far below their sales expectations and is critically panned, and it happens more than once, it would be an example. Even SWTOR has proven to be moderately successful from a "new IP" point of view. As it stands, they are still monumentally successful in terms of sales earnings.
asaqe
10:05:48 PM Mar 15th 2012
Well at least they will earn the consolation prize of shame in the ranks of Never Live It Down and Broken Base. I will give them that notorious reputation.

But really I ask, how about the internet backlash? At the very least Bioware has permanently tarnished their reputation.
crazyrabbits
03:58:34 AM Mar 16th 2012
People have been saying Bioware has "tarnished its reputation" for three games now. I am a user on the BSN, and the vitrol and whining I see from fanboys goes over-the-top (and takes away from the people who are reasonable and willing to explain their position without resorting to hysterics). I've seen people on the forums say they've been "violated", "raped", "lost five years of their life", and call for the firing and/or death of the lead creators.

The only thing I can see that would negatively impact them is their PR policies - they make themselves very open to the fanbase and the media, and when the fanbase gets riled up, they complain that the company hasn't addressed their needs fast enough. Any time someone doesn't "tow the party line", they either get accused of being ignorant or being paid off by EA.

Sure, the ending was bad, but both the reviewers and fans almost universally agreed that the rest of the game was great. Most of the comments on Metacritic voting it down only focus on the ending, to the detriment of the rest of the game. If they have a game that's considered a genuine flop and it happens more than once, I'd have no problem with putting them on here.
asaqe
12:16:40 AM Mar 17th 2012
The problem is that IGN and Gamespot are loyal Bioware lapdogs. Anything that can be seen as a potential PR disaster would have EA handling the problem by throwing money at the problem. After what happened to Gertsmann, few dared to openly defy other publishers to this day unless it is from Japan which nowadays is seemingly fair game.

If Bioware didn't became a fallen creator. There wouldn't be this desperate sense of controlling the detractors to PR. Which you have referred to and thus is a reason for being seen as fallen creators.
crazyrabbits
11:49:54 AM Mar 17th 2012
edited by crazyrabbits
That's a strawman argument. If a company enjoyed the game enough to rate it highly, that means they're automatically on a game publisher's payroll and should be discredited? That's a debate that has no bearing on this example.

You didn't read my statement correctly. When I say "doesn't tow the party line", I mean that if anyone (regardless of whether they're a fan, a reviewer or anyone in between) makes a halfway-positive remark about the game, overzealous fans jump all over them and accuse them of not seeing what they're seeing. The same hardcore fanbase is running around to video reviews, product pages and rating aggregators and downvoting anyone who doesn't agree with them en masse. Even game reviewers who were critical of the game and tried to defend it were set upon by those same fans.

This trope doesn't mean what you think it means. This isn't "So Bad, It's Horrible for creators". It's not "a company makes a mistake that hurts them, even if their products are successful". By that logic, any game publisher who produced a product with a bad scene or a bad ending would be put on this list.

The game is, by all accounts, successful from a critical and commercial standpoint. I don't need to listen to fanboys lecturing others about how the ending was bad - I know that already. It has no bearing on the success of the game. Not only that, but you've written the same example on a couple other pages as well to try and bolster your point.
asaqe
09:21:14 AM Mar 27th 2012
edited by asaqe
How about this:

i20.photobucket.com/albums/b214/gyrobot/1332864871675.jpg

It is proof that Bioware has fallen, that it destroy all of it's goodwill with one single game and it was Dragon Age 2
MrDeath
03:01:07 PM Mar 27th 2012
That is an impossible to read image. If you wanna state your case, state it, because I can't even read that.

That said, explain to me how it destroyed "all of its goodwill" with a game that came out several years ago...and yet Mass Effect 3 was one of the most positively anticipated games of this year?
lrrose
03:07:14 PM Mar 27th 2012
edited by lrrose
Mass Effect 3, Dragon Age 2, and The Old Republic have all sold very well (DA2 had a low budget and development time, so it didn't need as much sales to make a profit). I'd say that financial success alone disqualifies Bioware from this.

From the trope description: "Your positive reviews shrink... Your fanbase is fractured and shrinking."

Only qualification that Bioware seems to meet is the fractured fanbase. The Bioware forums' strict policies toward criticism emerged in response to how one of the Dragon Age writers was cyberbullied. It just so happened that the policies went into effect about a week before Mass Effect 3 was released.

@Mr. Death: The image seems to be a bunch of whining about textures as well as showing the contrast between the professional review scores and the user scores on Metacritic. Overall, its not a very compelling argument.
crazyrabbits
02:50:13 AM Mar 28th 2012
Asaqe, I'll say this once and only once.

Besides the controversy that's erupted over several design and story-based decisions the company has made since being integrated with EA, it's still successful from a critical and commercial standpoint. The hubbub over the ME3 endings, Tali's Photoshopped face, etc. mean nothing. The game sold over 2 million units in the first three weeks. That's the highest-selling entry of the trilogy. Just because a game has a fractured fanbase, doesn't mean it's eligible for this page. It's just fan whining, and it has to be two games or more in succession that flopped (critically/commercially) to even qualify for this.

All you're doing is just arguing in circles.
xie323
05:12:29 PM Apr 12th 2012
Bioware isn't this trope. Most of the people who hated the ending on ME 3 do not hate Bioware as a whole. And it can be argued that the backlash is more against EA itself.

If we use Broken Base as an example for this trope then why isn't Blizzard on this page cause almost every single non-critic for World of Warcraft(and to some extent, Starcraft II) has been leaning towards the negative. And for a non-gaming example, why aren't the creators of Code Geass on this page for breaking their base with R2?

And oh, what's proof that Bioware pays critics to be lapdogs? This need document, primary source.

We need two consecutive flops ordecline in quality. I'll count DA 2 as one since some critics gave it mixed reviews. SWTOR? Most of the hate is based not on it being a game but on it being a "MMO".

asaqe
10:39:47 AM Apr 14th 2012
edited by asaqe
It was effectively three hundred million dollars down the drain trying to grab the World of Warcraft audience and there are several attempts to keep it afloat at all costs.

And think about how they have an IGN journalism be part of their cast to gain the good graces of IGN who will then defend Bioware from any form of criticism and call those who have legitimate concerns about the state of the industry with a plethora of buzzwords.

People are consistently talking about paid reviews since Grand Theft Auto IV and how journalists will not call out a company on it's flaw when they are paid to keep silent.
asaqe
08:41:04 PM Apr 17th 2012
Also, Tortanic only lasted 4 months before no one cared about it.
asaqe
11:33:14 PM Apr 18th 2012
edited by asaqe
So using those examples, can Bioware be on fallen creator yet? Because I am cautious about provoking an Edit War
xie323
06:52:39 PM Apr 19th 2012
edited by xie323
TORTANIC can arguably be excused since most of the hate I see for this game from a GAMEPLAY VALUE is basic MMO hate, as well as the "kill World of Warcraft" ambition that kills or ruins MM Os these days trying to cater to the Blizzard crowd just amplicated cause of /v/. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened when GWII comes out and falls on everybody's face instead of being an epic. This has happened so many times that if one were to add Bioware, we might add almost every single MMO creator that tried to kill World of Warcraft but failed.

The whole IGN and critic thing is, as far as I'm concerned a "conspiracy theory" where you just pull stuff out and try to link them with no credible source and based on rumors that do not just go to Bioware. Furthermore, most would agree that Mass Effect 3 was a good game until the final 10 mins.

So stop bringing this up again until at least DA 3.............they we can see who's right.
xie323
12:06:51 PM Apr 20th 2012
edited by xie323
Furthermore it seems that all your "information" is based on what appears on /v/, STA forums and Reddit. There isn't a lot of credibility here. And if we want to add Bioware just cause of "Broken Base" than we might as well add a lot of other companies with broken base issues but critical sucesses here too. It's simply too broad.
asaqe
03:03:52 AM Apr 24th 2012
But then why is Capcom tossed into the category when Bioware did similar things. An poll that slapped EA with the title of worst company in america which led to a stock dip from the "Fear, Uncertaintly and Doutbt Campaign", angry fandom who formed the Retake Mass Effect protest. That is even more bloody vocal than Capcom's fallen creator status.
xie323
11:32:41 AM Apr 24th 2012
edited by xie323
Apprently Capcom cancelled two games that fans wanted for unknown reasons, and milked franchises to death. Sonic team's 3D games got just as much backlash from critics as well as fans and ditto for Square Enix(which also ties into the "I'm sick of JRP Gs" mentality that many have).

There I cleared up the most infamous gaming examples. There has to be BOTH massive internet backdraft + critical disappointment from critics for THREE CONCECUTIVE GAMES. And you cannot take "conspiracy theories" into account. All the crediable non-conspiracy arguments show that Bioware is only massive Broken Base atm.

Also it was not Bioware haters that form the Retake ME 3 movement. It was Bioware fans disappointed with the ending. The creator of the club said to refrain from hating and attatcking Bioware and it was more of "I hate EA instead" club. They still have a degree of respect for Bioware. Sure they're gonna boycott Bioware's games, but that's cause it causes EA loss of sales. I asked them what if Bioware broke from EA, and they said that they will go back to supporting Bioware.

Wait until DA 3, and if Bioware gets the same backlash on unofficial reviews(not /v/ hijacked metacritic reviews through) and gets some major critic backlash, then you might be right......might...

Or how about we comprimise and add EA here instead.
asaqe
12:03:30 PM Apr 24th 2012
That will do perfectly, I can't argue with that.
xie323
02:26:53 PM May 16th 2012
With the recent Diablo III fiasco, it is perfectly safe to say that you cannot use Metacritic to claim Bioware is this trope. Metacritic ALWAYS gets hijacked by /v/ if thy don't like something. If DA 3 comes out it must meet signficant critical backlash as well as fan backlash, or at least have a ME 3-esque club complaining about the game instead of a couple of fanboys on /v/.
asaqe
11:56:26 AM May 17th 2012
edited by asaqe
Maybe not, but perhaps the Old Republic MMO may be more convincing argument given the rapid loss of subscribers. At this rate, TOR may as well replace Dragon Age 3 s the sacrificial lamb due to it falling completely below expectations

And Metacritic is valid given how bitter gamers are without the ability to voice their protests. With Journalism serving the company in fear of corporate retribution.
asaqe
06:20:22 PM May 22nd 2012
edited by asaqe
So can you keep dismiss such claims of Bioware haven't fallen yet? It began with Dragon Age 2, continued with The Old Republic and finally Mass Effect 3. It is over, Bioware is completely finished.

http://venturebeat.com/2012/05/22/bioware-austin-lays-off-staff-on-star-wars-the-old-republic/ http://www.digitaltrends.com/gaming/bioware-ea-announce-star-wars-the-old-republic-staff-layoffs/
xie323
10:25:23 AM May 25th 2012
edited by xie323
The thing is, I don't consider failed World of Warcraft-killers = Fallen Creator. Otherwise 99% of all gaming companies would be on this page as they have "failed" in a way in killing World of Warcraft.

And since Bioware is suffering from massive Base Breaker, by your logic then Blizzard would belong here too. Because every single thing said about Blizzard since the recent World of Warcraft expansions has been total Base Breaker, the fact that they're actually losing players, concerns about the storyline and endless retcons in all their games going on and the possibility that they're appealing solely to people who Play the Game, Skip the Story over their "lore fans", as well as the recent Diablo III fiasco. It's simply too broad.

For things like Sonic Team, Square Enix and Capcom, there is critical review proof that they're Fallen Creator.

And you also have to consider things like Vocal Minority.

And when is "Staff Layoffs" considered Fallen Creator? By this logic 38 studios is also this trope because they went under recently.

Like I said, wait until DA 3,and ME 3 game itself isn't this trope, it's just the ending that caused all of this. 99% of ME 3 players(myself included) believe the game was awesome but the ending sucked. If this continues in DA 3, then you can add it.

And where's the proof that EA is bribing them? I don't like EA which is why I suggested it be in this trope but this whole thing was based solely on that scandal that occurred. Unless you have concrete proof and no assumptions it's a Conspiracy Theory and arguably breaches the Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement. Plus by your logic every game should have great critical reviews because they're being paid by the companies!

Also, yes, Colin Moriarty's review was biased, but apparently IGN had other staff members review the game and these feedbacks didn't appear as biased and even pointed out some flaws, however none of them hated the game. There's also the Toonami review that everyone who watched it liked that said the ending was a letdown but the game was good. So the ME 3 game itself is defensible without bribes.

And oh, I don't think this is getting anywhere since we're both arguing in circles, best to wait until DA 3 comes out.

xie323
10:53:21 AM May 25th 2012
edited by xie323
Most of the people in my Warcraft lore forum claimed they liked the game but hated the ending.

On the other hand....if adding an entry for EA isn't enough of a compromise, and adding Bioware is too broad at the moment. A second compromise should be to add Casey Hudson himself as an entry, as he has A LOT of responsibility for the ending assuming the Extended Cut fails to please.

But at the moment, Bioware itself isn't in, because it will be too broad and because of the implications it may have about other gaming companies, such as Blizzard that for some reason, hasn't been on here despite it losing players to other MM Os, had the recent Diablo III fiasco along with all the massive Base Breaker status going on in it's forums, but for some reason, people say Bioware does belong here.
xie323
11:00:58 AM May 25th 2012
edited by xie323
I do not believe that Blizzard is this trope, just believe that calling Bioware this trope will make the definition of this broad.

Furthermore there's a slight difference between Warcraft fans and Warcraft "lore fans".
asaqe
05:05:28 PM May 29th 2012
I am just adding in new data, sorry about that. But yeah, best wait till Dragon Age 3 before people make more accusations.
xie323
03:41:36 PM Jun 26th 2012
edited by xie323
Some new data:

Looking at regular BSN forum posts on the Extended Cut, I can safely say that there is a good amount of people who feel Bioware has redeemed themselves in a small extent in their eyes, and another equally large number of people that believes that this dosen't solve anything. Still, it seems that everyone is more cautious about buying from Bioware at the moment. But when I look at it reaction of the Extended Cut, it "seems", or at least seems on the forums, to lean towards positive at the moment.

So it seems at the moment the base is slightly less broken. If Bioware pulls something off big for DA 3 it could fix the fanbase and possibly vindicate them.
asaqe
11:21:35 PM Jul 26th 2012
More Data

http://venturebeat.com/2012/07/26/ea-attempts-to-calm-nervous-investors-during-its-annual-stockholder-meeting/

Looks like the internet has delivered a powerful blow to the stockholders and pretty much the entire entire internet is celebrating at how EA is going to collapse.
xie323
10:13:09 PM Sep 5th 2012
Thanks for the new data. While nothing has come out of Bioware recently that may change anything, I hope they take the opportunity to leave EA before the damage is done. They have gained some respect back in my eyes with the way they handled the extended cut, but I'll be wary of what they do since the ME 3 ending.

This has cemented my view of EA as "fallen" even more, say what you want about Bioware, EA is worse and is arguably the propagator of all this! I await the day when EA fully capsizes.....it will be the dawn of a new Renaissance in gaming without a "black hole" to consume all the licenses they find!
thebobmaster
07:57:55 PM Sep 16th 2012
Problem is, if EA goes down, it will take all the companies under it with it. You say you celebrate the possibility of EA sinking, but would you be happy if that happened to Bioware? Or DICE? Or Criterion? Or Mythic?
ReiKusanagi
03:30:25 AM Mar 10th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
I don't think EA/Bioware would really fit due to their excellent PR control. Sure some will hate their stuff but the masses will still eat it up.

Update: In wake of the Simcity fiasco, not even their PR is saving them from the flak coming their way.
asaqe
topic
12:07:52 AM Mar 6th 2012
edited by asaqe
I am deciding to follow up on the whole Bioware Fallen Creator Status. There had been a lot more haters and a lot of Internet Counterattacks going on at the forums. The only reason why game journalism won't attack them is because they are paid for by EA to keep quiet and give them 9-10 point ratings. Or didn't you notice how EA now implemented a zero tolerance policy towards anyone dissenting on their forums about their games?
asaqe
09:33:40 AM Mar 6th 2012
Also Mass Effect will be a financial success but at the cost of alienating even more fans than before.
DonutMess
10:58:26 AM May 25th 2012
That's a great way of thinking: everyone who doesn't agree with the way I think is a dumbfuck who can't think for themselves.
gyrbot
topic
09:49:40 AM Jan 3rd 2012
edited by gyrbot
About Bioware becoming fallen creators, didn't you heard about places like GameFAQs and Something Awful have been recently devoting all of their hate towards Dragon Age 2 and newer franchises for destroying all they stood for. Talking about horror stories about how Bioware silence anyone who dares to even criticize their games in a style that is Brezhnev's "Silence everyone, see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil".

Bioware has fallen and only the game reviewers who were paid by Electronic Arts to keep them from ripping the game to shreds would speak negative things about it. Or did Gerstgate not reminds you what happens when you try to turn against the game creators by supporting a deviant opinion.
ClockworkNinja
08:48:48 PM Jan 3rd 2012
edited by ClockworkNinja
This page is about when pretty much everyone agrees that the creator has stopped making any good work and has just started making terrible crap that is universally hated. Bioware hasn't made anything that was critically panned, and the only thing I could find that has a low score by users on Metacritic was Dragon Age II, with The Old Republic having an okay score and the rest having positive scores.

Something Awful always focus on the negative and even if they are focusing all of their hate towards Bioware, they aren't the entire internet or the entire fanbase, and you can't claim that no one likes their work because of the forums of two websites, even if you don't like what they did to their franchises.

Conspiracy theories on Bioware/EA bribing critics and silencing detractors aren't evidence that shows that everyone hates their games either and it wouldn't make them a Fallen Creator either unless they had bribed thousands of players and reviewers into lying about their opinion of the games.
gyrbot
10:44:44 PM Jan 3rd 2012
edited by gyrbot
Also the vandalism done to the Old Republic can be a sign of a Fallen Creator. Things normally don't get this bad if you didn't piss off the internet community.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Star_Wars:_The_Old_Republic&action=history
ClockworkNinja
02:17:35 PM Jan 4th 2012
edited by ClockworkNinja
It's kind of hard to take Wikipedia vandalism as a sign of hate from the internet, it could be lots of people vandalizing the page or just a few, as anyone can edit an unprotected article (and its semiprotected now), and people are undoing the damage as quickly as it goes up so people are defending the game. Even if SW:TOR and Dragon Age 2 are hated by the internet that doesn't make Bioware a Fallen Creator because they still have a very large fandom and lots of hype for their next game.
gyrbot
11:32:14 AM Jan 6th 2012
edited by gyrbot
If I could make a comparison to the opening quote, the haters right now are the internet and the lovers are those who rarely care about the deeper parts of the internet and thus more impressionable. I mean Metacritic bombs don't happen unless you piss off the internet community. They may not have fallen sales wise but they are now officially vilified by the gaming community
DonutMess
10:59:01 AM May 25th 2012
Trolldoms don't constitute a fallen creator. Bioware has millions of loyal fans.
Lightysnake
topic
02:49:08 PM May 6th 2011
edited by Lightysnake
Geoff Johns does NOT belong on this page. He's a big writer still and his stuff is mostly acclaimed by fans and critics. Brightest Day is an exception, but it hasn't caused a huge hit to his prestige like Bendis has taken.

Moreover, some of that explanation is irrational. Jaime Reyes is 'The Wesley?' His comic wasn't commercially successful, but it was a critical smash hit and Jaime became a breakout character through it. How is it Johns' fault Jim Lee is a slow artist?
biznizz
01:57:29 AM Jul 9th 2011
edited by biznizz
Searching.... Oh, now I see. THAT entry was created by Jamie Gumb, one of the biggest trolls this Wiki has. Just ignore everything he / she writes. Yeah, that troper has caused trouble on the Brightest Day page too. And seems to despise Jaime Reyes with a passion dispite knowing almost dick about him (you can tell that someone was a Ted Kord Fanboy / Fangirl). Not to mention that part of that tirade against Jim Lee (who I personally have mixed feelings about) is that All-Star Batman & Robin isn't finished? Umm... did I fall into an Alternate Universe where it was good? Apparently not since it's listed as part of Frank Miller & his fall from grace.

Smells like a disgruntled scans_daily poster stirring shit up here. Anyway to ban or block him / her?
biznizz
01:45:38 AM Jul 27th 2011
edited by biznizz
Lol... I can't believe I'm doing this, but I'm gonna save some of this entry, if only to keep for a record for posterity of this person's utter hatred. I mean, my god! You can literally feel the venom in those words as you read them! If a mod doesn't want this on, send me a note & I'll take it down, or move it to my troper's page. But this tale of a person's (technically two, but I think the two were really the same person using two handles) complete & utter meltdown should be seen for everyone. (Lightysnake included, but I actually think this troper was seriously in the right).

3rd May '11 10:56:49 PM Jamie Gumb
  • Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with his own creation, who he has since shamelessly whored out via the media arm of DC Comics (with him writing the episode of Smallville that was designed as a pilot for a Blue Beetle TV series, which thankfully flopped), all the while telling fans of Ted Kord to suck it because "resurrecting Ted would hurt Jaime Reyes's ability to find an audience". Even though Jaime Reyes has been a complete financial flop (even in his other media tie-ins, via the failure of his stealth pilot and AQUAMAN upstaging him as the break-out character of Brave and the Bold) and Geoff Johns made contradictory statements about Green Lantern and wanting all four of the G Ls to have their spotlight. Oh and fucking TEASING fans with constant baiting that Ted is still alive that he has zero intention of following up on. Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions and even named his 20010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", as a means to taunt fans who want a softer and lighter DC Universe.

5th May '11 5:20:03 PM Lightysnake Not even going to comment on most of this, but Brightest Day is not titled so because he's 'mocking' anyone. Oh, and Keith Giffen created Jamie Reyes Never mind the insane Jamie hatred here...

(Deleted entry due to not fitting in with Darth Wiki)

5th May '11 11:12:14 PM Jamie Gumb
  • Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns and several fellow writers, kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with Jaime Reyes, who despite Geoff's constant proclamation, has been box office poison and upstaged by both Aquaman and Booster Gold on "Batman: Brave and the Bold" and "Smallville" (which had a massive case of special effects failure when it came to translating Reyes in live action). This was further compounded by Geoff bitching and moaning about how Ted has to stay dead to "give Jaime a chance to find his audience", while at the same time bullshitting that he won't kill off the much loathed Green Lanterns John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, or Guy Gardner in order to appease people who want Hal Jordan as the one true Green Lantern of Earth. Oh and fucking TEASING fans with constant baiting that Ted is still alive that he has zero intention of following up on, in the exact same fashion Bob Harras teased fans of Spider-Man that Baby May was alive. Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions. Not to mention the utter fail of the Barry Allen series and his tone-deafness over the backlash regarding his naming his 2010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", which gave fans hope that we would see a softer, less gory version of the DC Universe coming out of the events of Blackest Night.

5th May '11 11:19:30 PM Jamie Gumb
  • Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns and several fellow writers, kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with Jaime Reyes, who despite Geoff's constant proclamation, has been box office poison and upstaged by both Aquaman and Booster Gold on "Batman: Brave and the Bold" and "Smallville" (which had a massive case of special effects failure when it came to translating Reyes in live action). This was further compounded by Geoff bitching and moaning about how Ted has to stay dead to "give Jaime a chance to find his audience", while at the same time bullshitting that he won't solve the Broken Base problem of Green Lantern via killing off John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner in order to appease people who want Hal Jordan as the one true Green Lantern of Earth. Oh and fucking TEASING fans with constant baiting that Ted is still alive that he has zero intention of following up on, in the exact same fashion Bob Harras teased fans of Spider-Man that Baby May was alive. Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions. Not to mention the utter fail of the Barry Allen Flash series, Flashpoint (which has so many lame-spinoffs that it somehow makes House of M look original) and his tone-deafness over the backlash regarding his naming his 2010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", which gave fans hope that we would see a softer, less gory version of the DC Universe coming out of the events of Blackest Night before reality ensued and people found out that it was more of Geoff John's gore fantasies.''

6th May '11 12:52:14 PM Lightysnake License To Whine. You don't have it. Johns is still a well regarded and popular writer.

(Deleted entry due to Jamie Gumb's obvious crusade against Johns)

6th May '11 1:51:02 PM Jamie Gumb Shut the hell up; Blackest Night, Brightest Day, and the Flash relaunch has turned a good chunk of fans against Geoff. Not to mention the John/Kyle fan who hate him for bringing back Hal and hate his gore fetish

Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns and several fellow writers, kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with Jaime Reyes, who despite Geoff's constant proclamation, has been box office poison and upstaged by both Aquaman and Booster Gold on "Batman: Brave and the Bold" and "Smallville" (which had a massive case of special effects failure when it came to translating Reyes in live action). This was further compounded by Geoff bitching and moaning about how Ted has to stay dead to "give Jaime a chance to find his audience", while at the same time bullshitting that he won't solve the Broken Base problem of Green Lantern via killing off John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner in order to appease people who want Hal Jordan as the one true Green Lantern of Earth. Oh and fucking TEASING fans with constant baiting that Ted is still alive that he has zero intention of following up on, in the exact same fashion Bob Harras teased fans of Spider-Man that Baby May was alive. Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions. Not to mention the utter fail of the Barry Allen Flash series, Flashpoint (which has so many lame-spinoffs that it somehow makes House of M look original) and his tone-deafness over the backlash regarding his naming his 2010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", which gave fans hope that we would see a softer, less gory version of the DC Universe coming out of the events of Blackest Night before reality ensued and people found out that it was more of Geoff John's gore fantasies.

6th May '11 2:02:02 PM Jamie Gumb
  • Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns and several fellow writers, kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with Jaime Reyes, who despite Geoff's constant proclamation, has been box office poison and upstaged by both Aquaman and Booster Gold on "Batman: Brave and the Bold" and "Smallville" (which had a massive case of special effects failure when it came to translating Reyes in live action). This was further compounded by Geoff bitching and moaning about how Ted has to stay dead to "give Jaime a chance to find his audience", while at the same time bullshitting that he won't solve the Broken Base problem of Green Lantern via killing off John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner in order to appease people who want Hal Jordan as the one true Green Lantern of Earth (a statement that has semi-cooled longstanding complaints from John Stewart and Kyle Rayner fans who dislike Geoff's blatant favoritism towards Hal over the other Lanterns). Oh and fucking TEASING fans with constant baiting that Ted is still alive that he has zero intention of following up on, in the exact same fashion Bob Harras teased fans of Spider-Man that Baby May was alive. Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions. Not to mention the utter fail of the Barry Allen Flash series, Flashpoint (which has so many lame-spinoffs that it somehow makes House of M look original) and his tone-deafness over the backlash regarding his naming his 2010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", which gave fans hope that we would see a softer, less gory version of the DC Universe coming out of the events of Blackest Night before reality ensued and people found out that it was more of Geoff John's gore fantasies.
    • The gore is another major complaint about Geoff Johns. Green Lantern, since the Sinestro Corps War, features at least one murder or maiming minimum per issue.
    • It got worse: Brightest Day ended with Geoff "fixing" Swamp Thing via killing off the existing version of Swamp Thing just so that he could resurrect Alec Holland and turn him into a grim and gritty version of Swamp Thing, effectively restoring the 1970s Lein Wein version of the character. Not to mention Geoff getting his grubby paws on John Constantine, though to appease the writers of the character's comic, they are now creating "TWO" John Constantines, effectively reducing Hellblazer to alternate continuity status.
      • Not to mention the fact that JLA fans hate him, in large part because Geoff has personally vetoed the restoration of the "Big Seven" roster in the book, saving that for himself for a plan run on the title... which will be drawn by Jim Lee, king of the late books. As such, JLA fans have had to suffer through a cadre of random roster generator line-ups with writers unable to use any of the Big Guns until Jim Lee finishes up Geoff's scripts for him. Which might never happen this decade since Lee is insanely slow and still has to finish up All-Star Batman and Robin first....

6th May '11 2:08:57 PM Jamie Gumb
  • Geoff Johns was a Hollywood glorified gopher who hit it big with JSA, Flash, and landed the plum assignment of restoring Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, a move that heralded the book becoming DC's most profitable franchise. But at the same time Johns began to slip. The first crack was Teen Titans, a controversial revamp that saw most of the Young Justice characters imported into the book changed beyond all belief, most notably Kid Flash and Superboy turned into dark and funless parodies of themselves. Then came Infinite Crisis, which saw Geoff Johns and several fellow writers, kill off popular B-List hero Ted Kord in order to replace him with Jaime Reyes, who despite Geoff's constant proclamation, has been box office poison and upstaged by both Aquaman and Booster Gold on "Batman: Brave and the Bold" and "Smallville" (which had a massive case of special effects failure when it came to translating Reyes in live action). This was further compounded by Geoff bitching and moaning about how Ted has to stay dead to "give Jaime a chance to find his audience", while at the same time bullshitting that he won't solve the Broken Base problem of Green Lantern via killing off John Stewart, Kyle Rayner, and Guy Gardner in order to appease people who want Hal Jordan as the one true Green Lantern of Earth (a statement that has semi-cooled longstanding complaints from John Stewart and Kyle Rayner fans who dislike Geoff's blatant favoritism towards Hal over the other Lanterns). Infinite Crisis also gave us Superboy Prime, who served as Geoff's soap box to mocking fans who were afraid of change/complaining about the grim and gritty nature of the DC Universe under Dan Di Dio and Geoff Johns. And the gore; besides Superboy Prime maiming and decapitating people left and right, Geoff Johns decided to retool Green Lantern into a gorefest of epic proportions. Not to mention the utter fail of the Barry Allen Flash series, Flashpoint (which has so many lame-spinoffs that it somehow makes House of M look original) and his tone-deafness over the backlash regarding his naming his 2010 Crisis Crossover "Brightest Day", which gave fans hope that we would see a softer, less gory version of the DC Universe coming out of the events of Blackest Night before reality ensued and people found out that it was more of Geoff John's gore fantasies.
    • The gore is major complaint about Geoff Johns. Green Lantern, since the Sinestro Corps War, features at least one murder or maiming minimum per issue. Not to mention the running gag that Geoff has established with Risk, who keeps losing limbs every time he runs into Superboy Prime.
    • It got worse: Brightest Day ended with Geoff "fixing" Swamp Thing via killing off the existing version of Swamp Thing just so that he could resurrect Alec Holland and turn him into Swamp Thing, effectively restoring the 1970s Lein Wein version of the character and erasing Alan Moore's version of the character from existence. Not to mention Geoff getting his grubby paws on John Constantine, though to appease the writers of the character's comic, they are now creating "TWO" John Constantines, effectively reducing Hellblazer to alternate continuity status.
      • Same could be said about the Parallax retcon for Hal Jordan, as many fans disliked how Geoff effectively declared that Hal was innocent all along and have everyone but Batman accept it without question. Many fans, even some Hal Jordan fans, complained that it was a cheap cop-out.
    • Not to mention the fact that JLA fans hate him, in large part because Geoff has personally vetoed the restoration of the "Big Seven" roster in the book, saving that for himself for a plan run on the title... which will be drawn by Jim Lee, king of the late books. As such, JLA fans have had to suffer through a cadre of random roster generator line-ups with writers unable to use any of the Big Guns until Jim Lee finishes up Geoff's scripts for him. Which might never happen this decade since Lee is insanely slow and still has to finish up All-Star Batman and Robin first....

6th May '11 2:46:52 PM Lightysnake 1. You don't speak for everyone. 2. Brightest day was not universally hated. Neither was the Flash reboot, nor Blackest Night by a longshot. Critically or commercially. Hal's revival wasn't universally hated, either. Most of these weren't even largely hated.

(Deleted entry again, due to reasonable reasons listed)

12th May '11 11:34:51 AM Revengers69 Since Lightysnake is going to be a cockblocker and not let Geoff Johns be included because of Butthurt, NO examples should be put here. Make it like Small Name Big Ego, since Lightysnake had to ruin it for everyone.....

(DELETED THE WHOLE FREAKING PAGE) (Page restored by Old Man Ho Oh) Edit warring is bad, but that's a bit much, 'specially considering you're not a mod. And both you and Jamie Gumb have hardly been editing cooly. I mean, "cockblocker"? Seriously?

14th May '11 1:58:23 AM Revengers69
  • Geoff Johns has become this trope in the last year: Brightest Day was a complete and total flop critically, being viewed as muddled mess with no coherent plot that doesn't even come into play until the last two issues when Swamp Thing shows up out of nowhere and his Flash run, featuring Barry Allen, has been treated like a red-headed stepchild by the Wally West fans that dominate the book's fanbase. Even more telling is Flashpoint, an Age of Apocalypse meets House of M type alternate reality book being greeted with yawns and utter apathy at best and scorn at worst, given how Brightest Day pretty much derailed any interest most readers had in the never-ending spree of Crisis Crossovers Geoff Johns has helped plot out for DC since 2005.

14th May '11 8:41:44 PM Lightysnake

If you're going to add someone, please don't make things up. BD was nothing close to a flop. While I would share the criticisms and genuinely disliked the event, it wasn't that panned. Flashpoint hasn't been met with 'aparthy or scorn' by and large either. I don't even like Johns that much these days, but he doesn't belong here yet, unlike Bendis. I made a post on the discussion page. You disagree, then take it there, explain your reasoning and provide evidence

(Entry deleted for the final time in flame war)
ChrisLang
topic
10:32:09 AM Mar 4th 2011
edited by ChrisLang
I changed the entry on Chris Claremont just slightly because one portion of it, I felt, had Unfortunate Implications.

I emphasize the line I removed. Now, tell me, what is wrong with strong female characters? I thought TV Tropes was not sexist. Does this mean comic book readers are sexist? I don't think so. Many readers, both male and female, are just as tired of Women in Refrigerators, Chickification, Standard Female Grab Area, Disposable Woman, and Faux Action Girl as I am.

I'm reminded of something Interactive Fiction author Sarah Morayatti said in an interview: "If a smash hit has mostly male characters, no one raises an eyebrow, but if it has mostly female characters, it's a Great Big Anomaly worth several trees' worth of shocked speculation."

Yes, the X-Men books in Claremont's heyday had lots of strong female characters. But I do not see why this is, or should be, a bad thing.

As for the rest, I'd have to agree that Claremont DID over-use certain plot elements. And he DID seem to plan too much for 'the real long term' not even thinking about how changes in Marvel editorial would affect those long-term plans. The latter part of his run on the X-books had him facing plenty of Executive Meddling (which involved, among other things, the original creation of X-Factor), and his original ideas for the backstories of Mystique and Mr. Sinister ended up never seeing print.

Anyway, his more recent work certainly isn't as highly regarded as his 80's X-Men work. A number of fans didn't care for his run on Exiles, and his X-Men Forever (set in an alternate reality) lost a number of people after issue #5 due to its 'mutant powers are killing them' revelation. So yes, I'd say he probably should be listed here.

But 'strong female characters' shouldn't be one of the reasons why.
ReiKusanagi
10:18:39 PM Nov 23rd 2013
well some might think that in the case of said females being stronger than they should be (but considering this is the X-men, some female mutants are REALLY powerful), but I don't have much of an idea on this.
Midna
topic
01:19:35 PM Jan 13th 2011
edited by Midna
Question: would Capcom fit on this pade? There's been a lot of controversy over the blatant plagiarism of 'Splosion Man (with MaXplosion), to the point that people have even outright said "fuck you" to Capcom (over the internet but still). We might have to wait and see, but the signs are beginning to show.
Rebochan
12:08:01 AM Jan 14th 2011
They are having some really bad fiscal reports in the last few years, for that matter, though I've been really sheltered from the current crisis.
Midna
09:38:40 AM Jul 21st 2011
edited by Midna
If fan reaction is anything to go by, the cancellation of Mega Man Legends 3 is only digging themselves deeper. Should I add them in?

EDIT: Never mind, they're already on there.
Carls493
10:30:24 AM Jul 21st 2011
Yeah. This was something that needed to be acknowledged there, even though my full opinion on Capcom isn't much different.
armogohma
topic
07:19:00 PM Oct 30th 2010
Is the entry on Yoshio Sakamoto really necessary? The "fall" was just a single game of passable quality that is far from universally reviled by the fanbase. Only if the trend gets larger, say, with a game that's actually bad, will the entry serve any purpose.
RhymeBeat
07:33:03 PM Oct 30th 2010
Yeah. Other M is Love It or Hate It and there isn't enough time to judge.
Rebochan
07:27:21 AM Nov 12th 2010
The guy's pretty much been hated for not being Retro anyway, and having a blogger spreading lies about him means I suspect he will constantly be added to this page.
ReiKusanagi
03:53:10 AM Mar 10th 2013
I seen an article pointing out all the sexist things in Other M... and I can't bring myself to defend it. Honestly I have no idea if all that was intentional on Sakamoto's part, but even then I can't say he's quite a fallen creator as he hasn't exactly reached a terribly high point as he inherited the Metroid series from the Late Gunpei Yukoi. Though if crashing a series' reputation into the ground with a single game counts....
OldManHoOh
topic
05:03:49 PM Oct 28th 2010
  • Takeshi Kitano, who states he can no longer take his early, inventive Yakuza films seriously, and plunges headlong into cloying sentimentality (Dolls) or solipsistic surrealism (Takeshis').
    • Your Mileage May Vary. Although his work has changed considerably, Kitano's new films are mostly well-regarded: he continues to win festival awards and is held in high esteem by critics.

Anyone want to elaborate on this. I noticed that the initial bit hasn't gone into detail.
Ramenth
topic
11:46:22 PM Sep 24th 2010
Why is there only a Darth Wiki for this? I seem to recall there being a real entry before?
Rebochan
02:19:02 PM Sep 26th 2010
Because Fast Eddie deleted it with no discussion. It was agreed after the fact that a Darth Wiki page was an acceptable comprimise.
barnicleG
topic
05:27:22 PM Sep 22nd 2010
Does the Harvey Dent quote "You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain" really fit here? Fallen creator seems more about losing ones talent, not becoming evil
Rebochan
topic
04:14:23 PM Jun 20th 2010
Okay, since people are arguing a lot about whether Joss Whedon should be here, I think its fair game to discuss him.

For reference, the last time he came up, I made the comment that since Dollhouse hadn't even premiered (then), it was unfair to judge him until we saw how it did. Since Dollhouse crashed and burned, he got re-added and I didn't argue since it does seem to be a pretty nasty slump for him.

On the other hand, he's also continued to have successes buried in there and continues to get employment. A long-term bout of fan friction isn't necessarily the bullet to the head unless its particularly harsh.

So let's discuss him here and now, post-Dollhouse and on the cusp of another Doctor Horrible project.
182.237.4.113
02:50:26 AM Jul 7th 2010
Personally, I argue that there's enough justification for him to be on the page, largely due to the following passage:

"The true defining trait of the Fallen Creator is the large drop in prestige, even after factoring out the usual Fan Dumb that chases creators wherever they go. It is not necessarily permanent; even if it is, there could still be a partial comeback. Artistic taste can be fickle."

Joss is obviously not Fallen for everyone, but post-Serenity and post-Dollhouse he was Fallen for a *lot* of people. He may recover, he may not, but he's earned his place here for now.
RickHavoc
07:51:02 PM Jul 30th 2010
No argument that, as far as some are concerned, Whedon deserves his spot here. However, his recent confirmation as director of the upcoming Avengers movie could be solid evidence that the majority — including the ones who count the most, studios & networks — feel differently. Then again, Jeph Loeb just fell into becoming VP of Marvel's TV division, so being deemed employable is not conclusive across the board.
Darkmane
02:31:42 AM Jul 31st 2010
I agree he belongs here for now - depending on the Avengers film that may or may not change.
theclam5678
06:30:06 PM Aug 24th 2010
Its virtually guaranteed that the Avengers is going to be good especially because his murderous tendencies are tempered by lack of full writing control. That and if Marvel didnt trust him they wouldn't put him in charge of their cash cow franchise.
oaclo
08:46:15 PM Sep 2nd 2010
I suppose I can't argue his place here if there is a sizable portion of his fandom that considers him fallen but I do have to wonder as to why that is the case. He's had a string of great shows that rightfully earned fandoms, including the recent Dr. Horrible, but when one of his shows gets cancelled (in its second season I might add. Even if it was unexpected that it got renewed, that's still more than a whole lot of other shows get) and that makes him fallen? I just don't really follow.
182.237.4.113
01:24:19 PM Sep 14th 2010
Joss is rather odd in that he's repeatedly created popular shows with strong fandoms, but simultaneously pissed off people from his previous fandom(s) every time. The hatedom is cumulative with Joss, not just garnered off one particular project. And once he's Fallen for someone, I've never known him to claw that person back.
Rebochan
01:02:03 PM Sep 15th 2010
It sounds less like a Fallen Creator and more of a Broken Base.
76.23.202.157
08:09:37 PM Sep 25th 2010
edited by 76.23.202.157
It seems to me that Whedon does not belong here for the same reason that several others do not belong here. It's a little weird to take somebody who has had several successful franchises, then a single or even a couple of flops, yet continues to get high profile work and call him a "Fallen Creator." Flops are to be expected for anybody who works hard on multiple projects. It's a fact of life. In order to be a fallen creator, the artist should need either a string of flops or a single performance SO BAD that career recovery is impossible. This page is just too harsh in my opinion and it makes the trope basically meaningless. An artist would have to maintain the same level of popularity as just after his first breakout performance in order to AVOID this page. It would be a shorter list to compile the names of people who have never had a single black mark on their resume.
SensuBean
05:32:44 AM Sep 26th 2010
edited by SensuBean
I have to mostly agree.
Glowsquid
topic
03:47:57 AM Jun 3rd 2010
"The other main designer on Doom, John Carmack fared much better than Romero initially, with Quake II and III and Return to Castle Wolfenstein being major hits. However, the reputation of both Carmack and iD Software in general has been heading steadily downhill since then; Doom 3 was commercially successful, but not particularly well received by the gaming community, Quake 4 failed to match up to expectations, and both Enemy Territory: Quake Wars and Wolfenstein were huge failures. All this, combined with the vaporware status of Rage, has left both Carmack and iD with a reputation that's barely any better than that of Romero."

All I can say is lolwut? Doom 3 has 3 generally positive ratings on gaming websites, even if it do have a fair Hate Dom among older Doom fans. ET:QW was a top seller in both the UK and the US and it still has a reasonably active community today (The console ports did flop but iD wasn't behind them). The Wolfenstein reboot wasn't by them, and neither was Quake 4 (which still performed very well) for that matter. Even if iD's reputation isn't as sterling as it used to, saying it's "barely better than Romero" seems to be very exagerated... in my experience, anyway.
ReiKusanagi
10:21:45 PM Nov 23rd 2013
I find that hard to believe as well as iD may not be a super popular company, people remember their old works fondly and don't regard it as a massive joke like Daikatana.
ReiKusanagi
06:50:07 PM Mar 16th 2014
edited by 67.184.110.183
Edit: misplaced post
back to DarthWiki/FallenCreator

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