Nightmare Fuel cleanup and maintenance

Now with a sandbox!

It appears that many Nightmare Fuel pages have problems, including:

1. Listing non-scary things that made the viewer feel slightly uncomfortable at worst.

2. Having spoiler tags on them (which is against the page's guidelines).

3. Listing Fridge Horror and fan theories.

And much more!

On a few occasions, people from outside the site's community have pointed out our overly lax usage of Nightmare Fuel to make fun of us, meaning that it can legitimately harm our reputation to let this go unchecked.

The TRS thread meant for redefining Nightmare Fuel started to become a place for cleaning up Nightmare Fuel pages in general, so we may as well move these discussions to Long Term Projects where they belong.

Here are the guidelines to determine whether something is Nightmare Fuel or not.

Nightmare Fuel rules

This is a page whose name is intended to be taken more literally than most. It's not enough for material to be scary; to truly qualify, it has to be frightening enough to legitimately unnerve/disturb the viewer, with actually being nightmare-inducing as the ultimate endpoint.
- Good signs that something IS Nightmare Fuel include if:
  - It left you feeling shaken even after the credits had rolled, you turned the last page, or are otherwise done with the work.
  - You have a hard time falling asleep if you think about it at night, or have a literal nightmare about it.
  - You dread that episode, scene, level, chapter, or song during re-watches, and consider skipping it.
- With that said, don't add something just because it happens to be your personal phobia. For example, spiders can be scary and many people have arachnophobia, but just because a spider happens to be in the work, it does not make a Nightmare Fuel entry. It needs to reasonably be scary to someone without the phobia.
- Don't confuse tension with fear. If the hero is in trouble, but you know he'll make it out okay at the end, it's probably not Nightmare Fuel unless the threat is especially disturbing.
Explain WHY the entry scared you. Try to convey your sense of fear to your readers. Avoid putting up Zero-Context Examples.
- Remember that Weblinks Are Not Examples, and neither are quotes on their own. You should explain the horror in your own words, rather than rely on others to do so.
Don't add things that might have scared someone. If it didn't scare you, and you don't personally know anyone else who was scared, you shouldn't be adding it to Nightmare Fuel.
Nightmare Fuel should stick to you even after you're done with the work.
- If something is initially presented as scary but turns out to be harmless, it's most likely not Nightmare Fuel since The Reveal makes the scariness vanish.
- Jump Scares are a good source of Nightmare Fuel, but not all of them automatically qualify: being startled is not the same as being scared.
Hypotheticals are not Nightmare Fuel:
- Remember that Trailers Always Lie: a scene that is presented as scary in the trailer could very well turn out to be inoffensive in the finished work. Only add examples from unreleased works if they were especially terrifying in the previews.
- Fan theories do not belong on the Nightmare Fuel page under any circumstance. No matter how much evidence they have to support them, don't add them until they've been officially confirmed. In the meanwhile, take them to Wild Mass Guessing.
- Fridge Horror goes on the Fridge page, not Nightmare Fuel. Don't add it unless it's Ascended Fridge Horror.
Keep in mind the work's intended audience when considering whether or not something is Nightmare Fuel.
- If something is normal or expected in the genre, it does not automatically qualify. Violence in a Fighting Series or gore in a horror movie must be especially disturbing or gruesome by the work's standards to be Nightmare Fuel.
- Remember that Kids Shouldn't Watch Horror Films. If a work is rated PG-13 or higher but would only be scary to young children, it's not Nightmare Fuel.
- The standards on what qualifies as Nightmare Fuel are especially stringent on works aimed at children and pre-teens: kids have hyperactive imaginations, so even something benign can give them nightmares.
Spoiler tags do not belong on Nightmare Fuel pages. Much of what scares us comes from inherently spoilery stuff such as death and the unknown, so finding spoilers on these pages should be expected.
Nightmare Fuel is an Audience Reaction, so it needs to be scary for the audience. Describing how the characters react to something scary isn't needed. Just because something scares them, that doesn't mean it scares us as well.
Nightmare Fuel is a No Real Life Examples, Please! page. Meta-examples involving the actors, production, or behind-the-scenes incidents are not allowed.

Guidelines when proposing cleanup of a page:

Some rules are pretty objective. If you see a Zero-Context Example, Fridge Horror, Real Life example, speculation, In-Universe reaction that isn't scary to the viewers, examples that explicitly describe themselves as not being very scary (including "mildly creepy", "somewhat unnerving", and other synonymous phrases), or examples that are just scene summaries without going into detail about why it's so scary, you can (and should) remove them immediately without coming here to ask.
You should also strip all spoiler tags from the page. Itty Bitty Wiki Tools has a tool for that, but it can cause problems, so if you use it be sure to preview the page and thoroughly look it over.
Once you've fixed the objective issues with the page, bring it here so we can look at the more subjective problems, such as examples that may not be scary enough to qualify. If a consensus is reached that a certain entry does not qualify, it can be removed.

Edited by Zuxtron on Aug 1st 2020 at 9:40:30 AM

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)

Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel

#551: Aug 20th 2018 at 7:25:32 PM

I went and watched the episode in question. Calling it a Jump Scare or a Nightmare Face is a blatant exaggeration. And considering how everything is Played for Laughs, I find it hard to believe that someone would be left feeling disturbed or shaken, or have trouble sleeping because of that scene. Ruby saying "ceiling cat!" also has nothing to do with Nightmare Fuel, it's the funniest part of the episode and mentioning it doesn't help to convey the fear that the scene may have possibly made you feel (given how humorous her reaction is, it'll probably have the opposite effect).

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016

#552: Aug 20th 2018 at 7:27:35 PM

The page for The Breakfast Club may have a few keepers, but many seem like Fridge Horror. Given that the movie is a comedy-drama, some of the moments may be unsettling, but not really scary.

In a rare instance of Body Horror in a John Hughes film, the cigar burn that Bender shows is downright Cronenbergian.
- Just before this scene, Bender stands up and re-enacts a typical day of his life at home with his abusive father. It's arguably the most unsettling scene in the movie due to how realistically it's done.
  - The way Bender just explodes after that — shoving heavy books to the ground, jumping on top of furniture, and scaling the staircase, all while howling with rage — is rather unsettling, too.
The fact that all of the kids are forced to deal with some type of abusive parent. Crapsack World indeed.
The scene where Vernon threatens Bender. It's so over the line that even Bender is stunned, and the idea that a principal can abuse their power as much as Vernon makes it absolutely clear he can, because no one will take Bender's word over his, is just terrifying.
Brian's mother has only a few lines, but it is utterly disturbing to see her rabidly talk down to him as she's dropping him off. Mercedes Hall's borderline-psychotic countenance does not help.
In the opening, Andy's father says he "screwed around" in the past and that "there's nothing wrong with that", chewing Andy out for getting caught in the act. Looking into it further, this implies that not only was Andy's dad a troublemaker, but quite possibly a Retired Monster and Karma Houdini.
Allison's parents nearly run down Bender when they arrive to drop her off at detention. Not only do they neglect their daughter, but they don't give a DAMN about any other kid's lives.
The possibility that Allison's story about her Psycho Psychologist really happened is horrifying in and of itself.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)

#553: Aug 21st 2018 at 10:09:13 AM

It really lies in the hands of the people who keep trying to add it to the page to explain why it has such a lasting impact on them when (and I completely agree with your post) it's an entirely Played for Laughs scene in a kids comedy show. However, I did feel I had to respond to the 'This Troper' query with an example of how an entry can be written to clarify audience reaction without resorting to This Troper language. I therefore chose an example that people keep trying to add, which has the same problem every time (character reaction), and which had some problems with the current write-up (inaccuracies and using This Troper language).

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

costanton11 Since: Mar, 2016

#554: Aug 21st 2018 at 7:13:15 PM

What are your thoughts on the Breakfast Club entry?

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)

Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel

#555: Aug 21st 2018 at 8:35:04 PM

For The Breakfast Club, the first entry sounds like it could be kept, but it needs rewriting to follow the rules on indentation (one bullet point per entry unless you're doing a list). Third and fourth might also be good but need more context: what kind of threat does Vernon make towards Bender, and what are some of Brian's mom's lines that make her so scary?

Second is way too vague and general. Five and seven are Fridge Horror. Not sure about six.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)

#556: Aug 22nd 2018 at 4:40:24 AM

Breakfast Club: I second Zuxtron on all points (Keep one, three & four, but rewrite). With six, we need more context to know if it applies or not.

A second example has been added in addition to the one I mentioned in an earlier post. Does either example apply?

Adam Character Short

There's a pretty unnerving moment near the beginning of the short where some of the White Fang (consisting of Sienna Khan, Adam, Ilia and Ghira) are being attacked by humans. Adam leaps into action and beats them up. He stays nonlethal until he sees the last one making a run at Ghira, at which point he unleashes a sword beam and kills him instantly. It may not seem like much, until you see the large amount of blood left behind (previously, the largest amount of blood in RWBY was Weiss getting stabbed in Volume 5, and even then, it wasn't that much). As if to drive home the point, the music stops after Adam unleashes the fatal blow. No ambience, no Lonely Piano Piece, just silence as the camera lingers on the scene. And then the White Fang start to praise Adam. It was at this point we saw the White Fang start to turn dark.
There's a dark moment immediately after Adam carves a swath through the guards, when he simply stands over a guard, his sword pointed down. Not only does he look like Neo about to stab Yang in Volume 2, he's about to impale him with no mercy. In contrast to the Start of Darkness moment, which he clearly felt was necessary, he has no remorse here. His seething narcissism and hatred for humans takes over to the point where he's ready to murder a guard who is no longer a threat. Thankfully, Sienna saves the guard by telling Adam they need to move, but it's not just a mere unpleasant moment: It's a clear visual cue that Adam is an absolute monster.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 22nd 2018 at 12:48:35 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009

#557: Sep 7th 2018 at 4:22:27 PM

NightmareFuel.Super Smash Bros Ultimate isn't even out yet and the page length is very long, with folders and an opening paragraph confused at how it got an E 10+.

Edited by lalalei2001 on Sep 7th 2018 at 7:22:48 AM

The Protomen enhanced my life.

erazor0707 The Unknown Unknown from The Infinitude of Meh Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]

The Unknown Unknown

#558: Sep 7th 2018 at 4:47:34 PM

I love how half of that is just Ridley.

Most of that? Cut it. It's just borrowing stuff from other games or franchise.

I'd say Luigi getting his soul ripped out and Ridley killing Mario and Mega Man were the only legit stuff.

A cruel, sick joke is still a joke, and sometimes all you can do is laugh.

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)

Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel

#559: Sep 7th 2018 at 5:06:28 PM

The Smash games have been brought up a few times before, but the discussion always dies down.

General

The reveal trailer for the game, as awesome as it was, can also be this. It starts with an Inkling girl facing off against an Inkling boy in a Call-Back to the reveal trailer for Splatoon. Nothing unusual yet. Then the white background goes completely black and the Splatoon theme fades out. The Inkling girl turns around to view the Smash logo, huge and fiery. The Ominous first notes of the game's theme and Mario and Link having their faces framed in shadow doesn't help.
I mentioned this before, and I'll say it again: nothing about this example sounds even remotely frightening. Oh no, a black background, a fiery logo, and Mario having a shadow over his face!
Simon's Reveal Trailer brought us some truly terrifying moments by using the dark setting of the Castlevania series, and involving Luigi in them. We see his growing sense of terror as he's unable to use his Poltergust to defend himself against the various monsters of the series. It starts with Luigi backing away from a group of mummies, before he fully runs away. Luigi starts to catch his breath, only to be startled by Medusa and then chased away by her snakes. As he runs down a dark hallway, he trips and starts to get up... before slowly realizing that Death is floating right in front of him! Luigi then suffers the ultimate moment of humiliation: Having his soul separated from his body!
- What's worse, not even Simon's arrival was enough to save Luigi, as we see his ghost looking over his body. He tries to rejoin with his body, and then Carmilla shows up. Luigi catches a glimpse through the window, and the camera zooms out as Luigi is heard screaming. Granted, Simon was able to stop Death from stealing Luigi's soul and according to Nintendo UK, Luigi was able to escape, but it does little to negate the horror of the trailer.
- Just for added horror, when Death reaps Luigi's soul from his body, a blue spectral liquid flies outwards. Fluid that is some brightness removal and a color change away from what would pretty much be the goriest on-screen thing to ever happen to a mainstream Nintendo character. If this was happening to someone in Castlevania and Bloodless Carnage wasn't in effect (as the gore levels vary per game), this would even be the expected effect.
- The eeriest part is that, unlike Mega Man and Mario, they actually show Luigi's lifeless body.
- The boss monsters aren't just frightening in the trailer — each of them (and more) can make appearances during gameplay and their presence is no less unnerving.
  Luigi being straight-up killed on-screen does seem like it could qualify, but the example needs cleanup on the indentation. The part about the gushing "blood" sounds like a massive stretch (yes, it can look like blood if you recolor it, so can literally any liquid), and the part about the boss monsters showing up in-game is a Zero-Context Example that does not explain what they do in the game that's so scary.
The fact that Dark Samus is in the game along with Ridley. That's right, two of the Metroid franchise's most terrifying villains are in the same game. One is a sadistic murderer and the other can corrupt and control other beings. And unlike the last time these two were in the same game, Samus might stare down both of them at the same time. This is gonna be fun...
- Oh right, Mother Brain is still an Assist Trophy, along with the Metroid, and Brinstar Depths (with Kraid in the background) returns as a stage. ALL of Samus' major recurring enemies are here.
- Read that again: Dark Samus is in the game. As terrifying and monstrous as Ridley is by himself, Dark Samus is every bit as vile; in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, she corrupted all three of Samus' fellow bounty hunters and nearly corrupted Samus herself, infected three planets with the Sentient Phlebotinum Phazon and sought to infect the rest of the universe with it. At the beginning of the game, she also took over the Space Pirate colony, having them serve her — yes, this even included Ridley. And now she is playable and in the presence of 60+ other powerful fighters with possibly more on the way, all of whom, in her mind, would make ideal slaves for her to control. Suddenly, the Echo Fighter roster looks much more threatening than before.
- There's also Dark Samus' general appearance. The Switch's HD graphics really complement her grotesque design, with more emphasis being put on the pulsating veins and carapace-like ridges on her "armor", highlighting how unsettling she looks. Her animations are also more ethereal than Samus', making her seem more wraith-like in comparison.
- Here's an added bit of Fridge Horror: if Metroid: Other M is to be believed, Mother Brain somehow developed a symbiotic relationship with the Metroids, presumably as a result of both originally being creations of the Chozo. This means that Mother Brain can give orders to the Metroids to do whatever she needs of them. Dark Samus is a Metroid. And they're both in the same game.
  Another example with indentation issues. It's also awfully generic: the first two points basically amount to "Bad guys from the Metroid series are in this game" without explaining anything about what makes them so scary. The third bullet point tries to expand on the first (in a way that violates Repair, Don't Respond) but relies entirely on aspects from Metroid Prime 3 rather than this game. The fourth point, describing her appearance, could be OK. The last point is explicitly Fridge Horror.
Mimikyu gets added to the Pokéball roster in this game. And if you haven't seen that game's own Nightmare Fuel page, know that simply looking under its disguise once killed someone (which also constantly happens to Meowth as a darkly comedic Running Gag). So what does it do in this game? A long, shadowy hand reaches out and pulls you under. And yes, if your damage is high enough, it will kill you outright.
This doesn't sound THAT scary, but I could be OK with keeping it anyway.
The Moon gets added to the Assist Trophy roster. It flies down at the fighters with its infamous Nightmare Face at a much faster speed than someone familiar with the game is used to... and since it's one of the Assist Trophies you can't attack, there's no stopping it.
- Even worse, it seemed to wipe out every player on the screen, leaving only Shovel Knight alive by pure chance (or somehow ignoring it due to also being an Assist Trophy). This isn't just a screen nuke for your opponents, it might just be an unexpected Taking You with Me.
  This also could be OK, aside from that poorly-indented second bullet point which is just speculation.
For his Final Smash, King K. Rool recreates the infamous Game Over sequence from Donkey Kong 64 and sends his opponents to DK Isle before firing the Blast-O-Matic. Except this time, the scene doesn't fade out right before the laser fires, so the audience gets treated to the total annihilation of DK Isle in full detail.
- K. Rool himself is equal parts goofy and intimidating. His Mad Eye always indicated he had a couple screws loose, but his loud roaring, even more pronounced eye tic, and crawling after his opponents at full speed like a komodo dragon imply he's only gotten more unhinged since we last saw him. Consider that it's been over 10 years since King K. Rool last saw Donkey Kong. Think about how his utter defeat against him affected his sanity. His goals are probably unpleasing to ponder upon.
- Considering his last appearance as a boss had him using an alien artifact to grow to ginormous size and spit fireballs at the Kongs, and he still couldn't beat them? Yeah, no wonder he's completely unhinged.
  If the game over scene truly is that infamously scary, it could be worth keeping. The part from the second bullet point that describes his appearance might be keepable, but then it (and the next bullet point) descend into speculation and Fridge Horror.
And then there's this: half of the character trailers so far have featured death. Mario and Mega Man are killed by Ridley, and Death slashes Luigi's soul out of him. And that's assuming you don't count Dedede as a casualty in K. Rool's trailer! Makes one wonder why Nintendo is making these trailers... or who might be next.
Um. Wow. This is literally just "the trailers feature death". Maybe the deaths themselves could count, but the very fact that people die in the trailers is not in itself nightmare fuel. It's not even speculating about the game itself, it's just speculating about the trailers.
Giga Bowser is significantly more imposing in this game compared to Brawl and Wii U/3DS. To start, you can no longer hit him. He teleports to the background immune to any damage, forsaking a full moveset for an One-Hit KO punch. While it can be avoided, the real wonders happen if you get hit by it. Instead of simply just blasting opponents away, Bowser actually goes out of his way to bypass the blast lines and Screen KO anyone who gets hit! Coupled with the nostalgic Nightmare Fuel from Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island with how Giga Bowser is positioned, it easily paints the Koopa King in an even more threatening light than previously.
'''This entry seems OK aside from the Sink Hole to Beyond the Impossible (this move isn't the only one that bypasses the blast lines, so it's not even regular impossible).
Now that Ganondorf has been reverted to his design in Ocarina of Time, his facial expressions have been altered to accommodate that in two majors ways. First, he now bears a Slasher Smile in several animations, notably his idles and victory poses. Secondly, his eyes appear "wilder" compared to his Twilight Princess incarnation, due to now being a bright orange as opposed to the duller gold-ish from Brawl and Smash 4. This only up the scariness of the aforementioned Slasher Smile.
This sounds a bit weak but nothing glaringly bad. I could go either way.

Ridley

Ridley's reveal trailer, which serves as a shout-out to the Alien franchise — with Ridley as the Xenomorph, and Samus as Ellen Ripley. Samus, Mario, and Mega Man are walking cautiously down a bridge in a darkened base. Suddenly, a blurred shape silently takes out Mega Man and Mario one by one (with sickening crunches to go with them). Samus senses this and turns around only to find that nobody is there and only Mario's hat is left on the ground. Then, suddenly, Ridley bursts out from underneath the bridge and taunts Samus with Mario's hat before he attacks.
- Ridley twirling Mario's hat becomes much more disturbing when you realize that Mario has Cappy in this game. Ridley is taunting Samus with a living being who is most likely paralyzed with fear.
  - Even better, said hat twirling is eerily similar to a pose Mario made at the beginning of the Nintendo Switch Presentation 2017 Reveal Trailer of Super Mario Odyssey.
- Can we just reiterate that Ridley's victims were Mega Man and Mario, AKA one of gaming's biggest heroes, AKA Mr. Nintendo himself? Mega Man can at least rebuild himself. Mario simply doesn't have that luxury.
  - He might have had some 1-Up Mushrooms on his person, but it's still one of the more brutal deaths he's faced...
  - Also note that, when Ridley kills Mario, there is a very audible Gorny sound effect, firmly breaking the series' rule of Bloodless Carnage, for the first and likely only time. This, alongside Simon's trailer, had many believe the game would receive a T rating, and were shocked that the official ESRB rating was E10+.
- Zero Suit Samus' expression at the end of the trailer is also quite unnerving. If she's willing to beat up a giant space dragon without her trusty Power Suit, you'd better be afraid of her.
  Hoo boy, this is a mess of bad indentation. As erazor mentioned, Mario and Mega Man's deaths are violent enough to qualify, but the rest is just awful. Mario's hat being Cappy is Fridge Horror, then we have a redundant point telling us once again that he killed Mario and Mega Man (as if we didn't get it the first time), and the final point sounds more like an Awesome Moment than Nightmare Fuel.
His moveset is one of the most brutal, animalistic, and outright violent in the series and reflects just how much of a monster Ridley is, which includes a ground variation of his famous Wall Grind, skewering foes with his tail, and his Final Smash has him launch the other fighters into the hull of Samus' Gunship before blowing all them up to high heaven with a devastating Wave-Motion Gun of a Breath Weapon. A good reminder why the High Commander of the Space Pirates is one of Nintendo's darkest villains.
- As an added detail, his tail stabbing attack, presumably if the opponent is at high damage, causes them to slowly limp onto the ground, and then get instantly KO'ed.^noteIn a similar vein to Bayonetta's Final Smash. No flying away from the stage, no scream or yell of any kind, they're gone. He demonstrates this on Link in his reveal trailer. He specifically sits there, crouching down just to watch Link struggle to get up before dying. This can also apply out of universe; since Ridley can outright murder opponents with this move without even needing to touch the blast zones, the player can feel quite tense and feel like their character is outright fighting for their life. For whenever Ridley is chosen, it immediately becomes a life or death scenario rather than a regular fight. Not even Tabuu could do this type of move.
  - In all likelihood, this was just an early showcase of the game's Stamina Mode. Ridley's Final Smash, on the other hand, can KO enemies without using the blast lines.
    This is just describing his moves. We then have a poorly-indented point that is immediately contradicted by yet another poorly-indented point.
Also, listen closely when Ridley is stretching up. You can hear his bones cracking. Brrrrrrr...
This happens when some people stretch in real life, too! Technically, the sound doesn't come from the bones, but from the joints, tendons, and ligaments. Anyway, this isn't an example.
Even one of Ridley's win animations is this, as it seems to be him ripping his opponent apart even after they're dead. Ridley does not screw around.^noteThis is undermined by the opponent(s) still applauding him, Sore Losers excluded.
- This video shows that he is actually tearing up the floor, possibly marking his territory. ...Or perhaps burying the opponent alive.
  I like how the first point includes a Pot Hole to Nightmare Retardant, therefore contradicting itself: he's tearing up his victims, but they're standing in the background, not being torn up? Then the second bullet point shows that he's just scratching the ground. It then speculates that he's burying his victims alive... which runs into the same problem as the previous point.
Then there's his overall contrasting presence compared to everyone else. While Smash Bros does have its fair share of realistic character designs, they're still given cartoony elements that help make them look like they're not too out of place. Not Ridley. He's far more detailed than even Snake and Ryu, giving him an otherworldly appearance that really shows the Xenomorph inspiration. Compared to the rest of the roster, Ridley looks like he originates from a horror series.
Eh... this sounds kinda weak, but it could be kept.
Worst, think of Ridley's inclusion through his own point of view. He was always a Psycho for Hire, causing a planetary genocide solely For the Evulz. Then he sees the roster. Beyond his Arch-Enemy Samus, there are various heroes and villains, some hardened and others innocent. And a few characters happen to be children, even. But it matters nothing to Ridley. His inclusion would become a severe mistake, as he would have a hell of a field day, ripping apart enemy after enemy, savoring their pain and suffering, gleefully killing their loved ones in front of them, breaking their spirits, and killing any innocence literally or metaphor ically. Not because they're in his way. But just because he likes to. To the other fighters, Smash Bros. is just a fighting tournament. To Ridley? It's a free opportunity to start up a killing spree.
Is this actually official, or just someone's fanfiction that got put on the page for some reason?
Try comparing him to the other Nintendo characters in Super Smash Bros. who had antagonistic roles, and see just how vile he really is:
- To start off, let's go over Bowser, Nintendo's most recognizable Big Bad. He can be quite threatening at times (in Super Mario Galaxy, he tried to make his own galaxy to rule the entire universe (and depending on how you interpret the story, he may have intended to destroy the universe and create a new one)), but he is still A Father to His Men and has plenty of standards that he wouldn't cross; he focuses on Despotism Justifies the Means in that he wants to conquer everything he sees, not totally destroy it, and has even stepped up to defend his world a number of times. He also genuinely has a soft spot for Peach; even though she doesn't return his affections, he's still willing to set up the perfect wedding for her.
  - He even has Bowser Jr. as a Morality Pet, who even then is just a silly Spoiled Brat and is as much of a Harmless Villain as his father. He also greatly looks up to his papa, who is in turn very proud of him for how he's turned out. Even the Koopalings have an undying respect for the Koopa King, biological children or not. All of Bowser's followers have sworn Undying Loyalty to him, and would never go against him unless they were Brainwashed.
- Meta Knight's only truly villainous role was as an Anti-Villain in Kirby Super Star, only doing so because he believed Dream Land would be better under his rule. Every other time he and Kirby fought, it was either to train him (Kirby's Adventure, Kirby: Right Back at Ya!), it wasn't really him (Kirby & the Amazing Mirror), he was trying to stop Kirby from making a grave mistake (Kirby: Squeak Squad), or he was not in control of himself (Kirby's Epic Yarn, Kirby: Planet Robobot, Kirby Star Allies)
- King Dedede is nothing more than a greedy bully on his worst days, and in Revenge of the King, he challenged Kirby and Kirby alone. Every other time, he's only fought due to a misunderstanding or Demonic Possession (or otherwise not in control of himself), and is usually willing to help Kirby when a much worse enemy arises. In fact, he and his timed badges technically saved everyone in the Subspace Emissary. Even in Kirby: Right Back at Ya! where he's portrayed at his meanest, he's still shown to have a Hidden Heart of Gold when it counts, and is still a Harmless Villain at the end of the day.
- Wario is merely greedy like Dedede and, aside from a few games (and spin-offs) is usually just an Anti-Hero. Even then, his biggest crimes in those games were done out of petty jealousy towards Mario, and are overall Played for Laughs.
- Dark Pit may have been created from the darkness in Pit's heart, but he started off as not a main villain, but merely The Rival to Pit, and even pulled a Heel–Face Turn by the end of the game. In fact, his Establishing Character Moment involved him outright backhanding Pandora upon his creation.
- Wolf O'Donnell is usually Only in It for the Money, as well as to take down his rival, Fox, but he has lines he refuses to cross, if his low opinion of former Star Wolf members Pigma Dengar (a greedy, backstabbing, Corrupt Corporate Executive) and Andrew Oikonny (a cowardly, arrogant blowhard) is any indication. His team has also helped fight off the Aparoids and Anglars, showing they're still willing to help save the galaxy when it suits them.
- Depictions of Mewtwo vary, but the portrayal it's based on, from Pokémon: The First Movie, is an Anti-Villain who simply wanted a world free of human contamination out of rage for losing his childhood friends along with being treated as a pack mule by its creators. It eventually had a Heel–Face Turn after witnessing a Heroic Sacrifice. Even its game counterpart, a known Blood Knight, only killed because it was lashing out at those who created it — and even then, Mewtwo isn't portrayed as an all-and-out villain.
- As for King K. Rool, while he can be threatening (such as Donkey Kong 64, where he tries to blow DK Isle up, or the Donkey Kong Country cartoon where he was almost responsible for sinking the entire island one time), he mostly comes off as a goofball, especially in the first game, where his crime was stealing the Kongs' bananas. Though you could argue that his plan back then was to starve the Kongs, the Kremlings as a whole are overall about as silly as Wario and Dedede, and even though K. Rool is Ax-Crazy, he's still a cartoonish buffoon in terms of characterization.
- Ganondorf, though just as cruel as Ridley, at least has some tact in his villainy by simply doing whatever accomplishes his goals faster, and has at least two Freudian Excuses to speak of — the perpetual death and suffering of his people in the harsh Gerudo Desert, and being the reincarnation of Demise's eternal hatred — making him somewhat of a Tragic Villain. He's also willing to extend some mercy to his enemies, or at least spare them when necessary: he fully intended to spare Link and Zelda at the end of Wind Waker were it not for his plans falling apart at the last second.
- Fellow Metroid villain, Dark Samus, while equally as monstrous as Ridley in the long run, has a sliver of decency, as she started off as just an ordinary Metroid that didn't know any better prior to becoming the Metroid Prime, she doesn't Kick the Dog quite as much, and she even shows genuine compassion for her fellow Metroids, even putting some in Phaaze — the source of the Sentient Phlebotinum Phazon — for them to thrive.
- Master Hand and Crazy Hand are Ambiguously Evil at best, seeming more as a final adversary more than an actual villain, as little to nothing is truly known about their goals. Even the Master Core is not exactly evil - just a mindless mass of material named "the swarm" created out of a terrible accident.
- Even Tabuu, the main villain of Subspace Emissary, had more of a structure to his villainy; all he wants is to add portions of the World of Trophies to his growing empire, and at least you could argue that his Off Waves are a lot more quick and painless than whatever Ridley does to his victims.
- Ridley, on the other hand? No excuses, no standards, no sympathetic backstory, no compassion, no goofiness, no restraints, and no mercy. He is only but a Sadist of the highest order, a proud Combat Pragmatist and a violently insane and depraved beast rolled into one, firmly believing in Might Makes Right, and is motivated by the thrill of slaughtering millions and a deep, obsessive hatred towards his Arch-Enemy Samus Aran. He sees himself as far beyond morality, and would only take pride in the amount of lives he's ended and ruined catastrophically - and the one who has haunted Samus for as long as he had, cheating death time and again just to torment and destroy her, and with her, everything she stands for. He sees any life in the universe as either playthings, or cretins born to be his victims or slaves, and nothing beyond that. He displays no sorrow even for the deaths of his fellow Space Pirates or high-ranking leaders - including Kraid and Mother Brain - simply because mourning for one's death would be something Ridley sees as a moment of weakness. He truly is, and only will be The Cunning God of Death.
  Someone clearly put a lot of effort into this. Too bad it's just overanalyzing him and other villains, and saying "he's more evil than the rest". It's also based on the portrayal of the characters in their home games, not in this game.

Edited by Zuxtron on Sep 7th 2018 at 8:55:35 AM

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)

Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel

#560: Sep 7th 2018 at 6:48:38 PM

I went ahead and removed the blatant speculation and Fridge Horror from Smash Bros. Ultimate. I'd like a bit more consensus before removing the rest of the problematic points I mentioned in my other posts. Ridley's folder is now much smaller and probably unnecesary, should it be incorporated into the rest of the page?

Speaking of folders, perhaps we should make two of them: one for things from the trailers, and another for the game itself.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009

#561: Sep 8th 2018 at 3:53:12 AM

1 for Trailers and 1 for game stuff sounds good since Ridley would be included in the former anyway.

The Protomen enhanced my life.

mrbits Since: May, 2009

#562: Sep 8th 2018 at 11:56:04 AM

@ Smash Ultimate.

Cut the entry about the reveal trailer. Like Zuxtron said, there's nothing even remotely frightening about it.
Might be controversial, but I say cut Dark Samus's entry. Most of it is just talking about things she did in her home games. The rest of the entry is about her movements and appearance, and pretty much everyone thinks these just make her look cool instead of scary.
Cut K. Rool for similar reasons. His Final Smash was semi-kind-of-almost creepy in DK64, but in here it's just a big laser beam.
Cut Ganondorf's entry. Everything about it is weak.

mrbits Since: May, 2009

#563: Sep 8th 2018 at 12:30:19 PM

From the My Hero Academia page

Inasa has a normally upbeat personality, but once he turns his back to see Todoroki, he shows a very serious Nightmare Face. The entire scene is completelly offputting because he was happily talking a second ago and then his face just darkens in a stare of quiet anger.

This is literally just a character making a mildly angry face. Permission to cut?

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)

Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel

#564: Sep 8th 2018 at 1:03:00 PM

That sure sounds like one of these "normal facial expression" entries that I hate so much. Inasa is a good guy, so there's nothing to fear from him.

I wasn't sure whether to cut Dark Samus' entire entry, but you're right that most of it is about her portrayal in her home game, and not Smash, so it's not relevant. I at least trimmed it a bit.

Edited by Zuxtron on Sep 8th 2018 at 4:06:16 AM

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)

#565: Sep 10th 2018 at 10:28:19 AM

Any thoughts on the examples I posted above (nine posts up)?

Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 10th 2018 at 6:30:25 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)

Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel

#566: Sep 10th 2018 at 10:42:20 AM

Not seeing anything glaringly bad with either of these. Second one is maybe a bit weak, since it's just a generic mook that doesn't even get killed, so if enough people want it gone I wouldn't mind.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)

#567: Sep 10th 2018 at 11:03:40 AM

I'm only checking because we were removing one example from the short, when these were added. And, as you say, the second one is very weak.

If we keep them, I'll just reword the first example's last sentence slightly to remove the 'we' language.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Sep 10th 2018 at 7:06:51 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

rjd1922 he/him | Image Pickin' regular from the United States Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal

he/him | Image Pickin' regular

#568: Sep 15th 2018 at 8:05:34 AM

Found another real stinker of an NF page that should be cut entirely: NightmareFuel.Zoom. Yes, the PBS Kids show.

Keet cleanup

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)

Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel

#569: Sep 15th 2018 at 9:19:35 AM

This page has two types of examples: Zero-Context Examples, and examples that are desperately reaching and grasping for a justification to add them to the page. Apparently anything different from usual is "extremely startling".

I'd suggest cutting the whole page.

Edited by Zuxtron on Sep 15th 2018 at 12:22:10 PM

ADrago Since: Dec, 2015

#570: Sep 15th 2018 at 12:27:29 PM

That page should be cut, for the entries either being ZCEs or reaches.

Silverblade2 Since: Jan, 2013

#571: Sep 15th 2018 at 12:37:47 PM

Matt getting kidnapped by aliens in the play "Ya Reckon?".

Those cheap costumes are supposed to be scary?

ReynTime250 Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA

#572: Sep 15th 2018 at 3:04:20 PM

If we need a subcategory for Ridley in SSBU, it should be if they keep him as horrifying as he is in the trailer for the main game.

The trailer did show him be like his manga self pretty well, but as for now cut the folder and add it in the general.

Some examples of the Super Paper Mario that I'm not sure about.

The Final Boss, Super Dimentio, a monster that Dimentio created by merging with Mr. L and the Chaos Heart, a giant monster who has a fairly disturbing face that resembles Luigi's, and is initially unable to be harmed just like Count Bleck. And when he's defeated, he ends up being decapitated and still surviving for a brief period of time before his head explodes.
- How about the concept of it in general? Luigi is the physical vessel for the death of the multiverse. As in every fictional world you've come to know even if completely unrelated, all wiped out. Including the non-fictional one, by the way. Yeah, remember how Merlon points out we exist, thus including our world in the equation? You'd never expect this from a series that people outside the fandom generally consider for kids.
- And that's not getting into the music for said fight: Crowning Music Of Awesome aside, it's a hellish combination of Mr. L and Dimentio's themes, combined to make a grandiose, yet sinister-sounding self-tribute to the Master of Dimensions as he proceeds to take over the very destruction of the universe, with the Man in Green as his unwilling pawn. Yes, the final boss's theme is outright celebrating the very being you're supposed to fight, which perfectly sets up how initially helpless you are at the start...

Spoiler policy problems aside, the third bullet point I'm not entirely sure if it is celebrating the final boss, and I'm pretty sure it being considered one of the best songs in the game makes it a Nightmare Retardant. Super Dimentio's design is pretty weird and creepy coming from a Mario game, but I don't think it's gonna give nightmares, unlike Mimi's transformation scene.

Dimentio himself. This silly harlequin proves to be one of the most deranged things from a Mario game.

Zero Context Example. He is a Complete Monster, but that alone doesn't make him Nightmare Fuel.

Edited by ReynTime250 on Sep 15th 2018 at 11:17:10 AM

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)

Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel

#573: Sep 15th 2018 at 6:35:46 PM

Ridley should never have had a folder of his own. His entries only got that long due to a large amount of misuse, Fridge Horror, and speculation.

For the Super Paper Mario entries, Super Dimentio doesn't look that scary to me, but I can at least understand why someone would feel disturbed by him. However, the music doesn't sound scary in the slightest. Sure, it sounds intense and dark, but it's the final boss' theme; were you expecting something light and cheery? I can't imagine someone losing sleep because of the music.

The entry is also poorly indented. If we don't end up cutting it, it should be combined into a single bullet point.

And Dimentio's entry is indeed a ZCE, comment it out or expand on it.

Primis Since: Nov, 2010

#574: Sep 15th 2018 at 11:05:02 PM

Found this on YMMV.Mega Man 11:

* Nightmare Fuel: Like in 8, Mega Man screams whenever he dies. Losing a life instantly goes from a minor inconvenience to a hideous combination of Hell Is That Noise and Player Death Is Dramatic.

I've played the Mega Man 11 demo, and Mega Man's death scream didn't exactly chill me to my core.

Zuxtron Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel from Node 03 (On A Trope Odyssey)

Berserk Button: misusing Nightmare Fuel

#575: Sep 16th 2018 at 12:23:35 PM

Yeah, that definitely sounds like an overreaction. I watched a gameplay video and the scream sounded pretty ordinary, not like a haunting cry of agony or despair.

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