Clean-up for the Stock Japanese Characters index: Stock Japanese Characters

It was decided in this TRS thread that Stock Japanese Characters (formerly Anime Character Types) should be limited to only character tropes that either originated in Japanese culture, or that are primarily only used by Japanese media.

To facilitate this, I have created Sandbox.Stock Japanese Characters, where I have sorted the existing Main.Stock Japanese Characters listing into the "Keep" and "Remove" categories, based on my quick initial assessment on whether the individual tropes met the above criteria.

What I would like help on is for anyone who is willing to review the sandbox listing and say whether or not you agree with how everything is currently sorted.

If you disagree with where an entry is listed, please state your reasoning and I will move that entry to the "Uncertain" category until a consensus can be reached. Please keep in mind that you need to take both the description and the examples listing into account: if a trope has a japan-centric description, but has numerous Western examples that were not obviously based on the Japanese portrayal, then it should not qualify to be kept on the index.

Tropes that have been decided by consensus to change to Keep or Remove will be listed in bold.

Once there is general agreement for where everything should be placed, I will move everything in the "Keep" list over to Main.Stock Japanese Characters.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

edited 29th Jul '11 6:08:29 AM by Meeble

Here's one I have wonder about: How is Harem Nanny substantially different from Team Mom?

Team Mom: "Team Mom basically acts as the mother figure for everyone else in the group, regardless of age or family relations. ... the leader the team needs in everyday life and practical matters. Quells fights, makes sure everyone cleans behind their ears and eats their greens. Can be pretty bossy. Usually, they're gentle, cute, kind, and capable of Mama Bear type stern mothering (or papaing, even). ... If anyone can break through and bring about a Heel Face Turn or Cooldown Hug, it's the Team Mom."

Harem Nanny: "keeps a look out for the major, non-daily disturbances in the household. Outside of that, the cast is on their own. This character is collected and cool as a cucumber, and isn't about to stress about every little thing. ...Notable for being probably the only character who will give you a simple straight answer for anything. ... Usually older than the rest of the cast and never a romantic possibility (though occasional flirting isn't ruled out)."

• Anime In-Laws has nothing to do with Anime or In-Laws and it shouldn't be on the keep list.

• Accidental Pervert I'm not sure about. I don't think I've ever seen it seriously used outside of anime. Throw it on "uncertain."
• Magical Girl is very much a Japanese trope, and should be on "keep". Its not just "girl with magical powers."
• Schoolgirl Lesbians should be on "keep;" its explicitly about Japanese cultural values, that is, a "practice" relationship. Which reminds me, I need to start a TRS for that one.
• Yaoi Fangirl and Yaoi Guys should be on "keep;" they're popping up more and more elsewhere, but they definitely originated in Japanese culture.

Anime In-Laws is currently being TRS'd for rename and broadening.

I think Harem Nanny is like a background figure that functions more like a parent or something in a different setting. Or Da Chief in a police squadron. IE: the Team Mom is part of the team, the Harem Nanny is not part of the harem.

Unflappable Guardian doesn't seem inherently Anime specific/originating. However, I think we've got an identical trope elsewhere (Reasonable Authority Figure maybe?) and it seems to be withering.

I think it would also benefit to break off a section for tropes that have migrated outside of Japan in a large scale, like Ninjas.

Also, I'm going to list questionable ones. I'm working purely from memory though:

Bishōnen this is about the specific aesthetic isn't it? Doesn't that mean it should stay?

Bruce Lee Clone, not sure what to do with this.

Christmas Cake is a specific subtrope of Old Maid.

Bifauxnen (sp?) might be theirs, no clue on origin.

Dark Skinned Redhead is one of their animation visual tropes. Dark Skinned Blonde might be as well, but you'll find them outside of their works.

Delinquents: IIRC, this is in TRS for being written Japanese specific. If/when a Japanese subtrope is broken off for the specific characterization, it should go on the index.

Gonk: maybe, not sure exactly where this originated or if there's a specific style to it. Going from memory.

Huge School Girl: move to unsure. This sounds like one of those tropes built around Japanese standards of beauty, namely that being short is cuter than being tall.

Magical Girl and subtropes: however Cute Witch is not a subtrope of this. I think it was their interpretation of Super Heroes that under went speciation.

Moe: I'm pretty sure this is one of the Japanese terms for a particular set of qualities they find attractive or something.

Panty Thief: I'm not sure how similar the characters are. I've seen it significantly more in Anime/Manga than any other area. It's mildly disturbing that I have an opinion on this as I mostly watch Sci-Fi related stuff. I guess they're just more willing to play mix and match with their genres.

Pettanko: I think this a fanspeak term now.

Red Oni, Blue Oni: I'd say move this one back, but I'm not sure how much is theirs beyond the name. The description needs a trim. I'll start a TRS asking if I can do a trim in a bit.

Space Ship Girl: I'm not sure if they came up with it or not. While the ship having a female voice is as old as talking spaceships, I don't know how old this particular iteration of Sapient Ship is, nor where it's from. Given the presence of things like Gundam Girls (or whatever the term is), I could believe they created this trope.

Student Council President: I think this belongs to them. While student councils exist elsewhere, I've never heard of them having any kind of actual authority outside of Japan.

Tall, Dark and Bishōjo: again, Japanese beauty standards I believe.

Weasel Mascot: no clue on origin, never seen it in a western work. However, this might not be a stock character, unless pets count as characters now.

Things that might need to be added:

The Ojou (sp?): the name is theirs. Can't remember the specifics of the trope though.

edited 28th Jul '11 2:46:36 PM by Deboss

I've gone ahead and moved all of the tropes mentioned into the "Uncertain" category for now. I would like to go through them all individually, but I may not have time to address them until tomorrow. Though everyone should feel free to weigh in on them.

Is everyone at least in agreement, based on the TRS thread for Anime In-Laws, that it should definitely be put in the Remove category?

Yes.

Space Ship Girl outside of Japan goes back to at least 1969 and Anne McCaffrey's The Ship Who Sang.

^^ Yes.

edited 28th Jul '11 4:44:49 PM by Madrugada

Red Oni, Blue Oni has examples from every sort of media. It's just a stock combination of opposite personality types.

Spaceship Girl I've seen more of in Western works than Eastern, but I blame that on the fact that I watch more Western sci-fi. It seems to be a common trope to that genre. My first associations with it are The Ship Who Sang and Andromeda. Not any anime.

edited 28th Jul '11 5:05:24 PM by shimaspawn

I recognize The Ship Who Sang, but I wasn't sure who came up with the idea first, as I don't keep close track of when things come out.

What we'd need to do is find the earliest Manga/anime example of a female spaceship, then see if it was in use in western works before that.

I think it's old enough in both places that it's pretty much ingrained as a general trope. It was ships (the kind that float) as women for millennia in Western works. The spaceship is just an evolution of that older trope.

Ok going down A-E...

• A Protagonist Is Ryu: No clue what this is but its anime specific.
• Accidental Pervert: Not exactly anime specific but my god if it isnt everywhere in anime and manga its not even god damn funny.
• Action Girlfriend: Remove/
• Adult Child: Remove
• Aloof Big Brother: At least 75% of the examples are from Japanese works its a big thing for it.
• Anime Chinese Girl: Needs to stay
• Anime In-Laws: TRS currently
• Arrogant Kung-Fu Guy: Not anime specfic but 75% of the examples are from Japanese works.
• Artificial Human:Can go I think
• Ascended Fanboy: Can go.
• Author Avatar: can go
• Bastard Boyfriend AKA Kichiku: Japanese specific
  • Spectacled Sadist ("Kichiku Megane") same (only one or two examples outside Japan)
• Beady-Eyed Loser: anime specific
• Big Brother Mentor: very large anime section western section pretty small
• Big Eater: A huge thing in anime although there are decent amount of others outside.
• Bishōnen Stay.
• Bokukko Can not translate outside japan lots of issues come up when people try.
• Bridge Bunnies: lots of misuse and single character specific outside anime.
• Bromantic Foil Should stay.
• Bruce Lee Clone: murky as its source dates to Japan but has spread
• But Not Too Foreign: A big thing in anime as most do not go with directly foreign people.
• Cake Eater TRS atm
• Cat Girl: should stay.
• Char Clone: oh big time should stay
• Chick Magnet: can go
• The Chikan: stay
• Chinese People: need a TRS
• Chivalrous Pervert: extremely common but appears elsewhere
• Christmas Cake: Stay
• Church Militant: can go
• Class Representative: stay
• Clingy Jealous Girl: 75% of the examples are japanese.
• Cool Big Sis: 75%+ examples anime
• Cool Old Guy: can go
• Cordon Bleugh Chef: Can go
• Cosplay Otaku Girl: Stay
• Covert Pervert: Rare outside of Japan as there are different issues to deal with.
• Creepy Twins: Can go
• Crossdresser
  • Gender Bender: Should stay
  • Villainous Crossdresser can go
  • Wholesome Crossdresser should stay
  • Bifauxnen: should stay
• Cute Ghost Girl: should stay
• Cute Mute:
• Cute Shotaro Boy should stay
• Cutesy Dwarf: go
• Dandere: fanspeak for Shrinking Violet
• Dark Skinned Blond: stay
• Dark Skinned Redhead: stay
• Delinquents: TRS
• Dirty Old Man: Stay
• Dojikko: stay
• Dreadful Musician: Go
• Education Mama: Stay
• Elegant Gothic Lolita: stay
• Emotionless Girl: stay
• Enigmatic Minion: Go
• Even the Girls Want Her: Rare outside japan
• Even the Guys Want Him: Strangly not as rare

Most of these though are stock Japanese characters that go on for pages and pages but not stock anywhere else their example section is like less than 10 or so.

Another thing is that Stock Character many of these are not stock characters in Anime. IE: Little Jimmy, Standard '50s Father.... it can not exist in anime They are Stock American Character s. I have issues with riping this apart and not getting rid of that.

edited 28th Jul '11 6:55:33 PM by Raso

Stock Character is the supertrope to this. A lot of those tropes in it can't exist outside of their genres, but they're still Stock Characters. We can't really rip that apart because, as the supertrope, it covers all media. Even if some of those are Dead Horse Tropes.

Also, I find it amusing that for a trope you listed Standard '50s Father has a decent number of anime examples.

edited 28th Jul '11 7:03:09 PM by shimaspawn

• Face of a Thug: huge majority are anime:
• Fake Ultimate Hero: Can go
• Fangirl: Stay small outside Japan.
• Foreign Fanservice: Rare outside japan
• Gadgeteer Genius: go
• Genius Ditz: go I guess
• Genki Girl: stay
• Girl with Psycho Weapon: Rare outside japan.
• Great Detective: not started in japan this trope is HUGE in japan and not as popular anywhere else anymore.
• Gonk: drawn in a completely different style: Misuse is high outside drawn works.
• Handsome Lech: go
• Half-Human Hybrid: go
• Half-Identical Twins: go
• Harem Nanny: stay
• Head Pet: stay
• Heavy Sleeper: go
• Heir to the Dojo: stay
• Hikikomori: stay
• Hot-Blooded: go (although really really huge in anime)
• Hot Mom: go
  • Hot Dad: go
• Huge Schoolgirl: stay (Tall girls over 170 cm are a big thing in characterization.)
• The Idiot from Osaka: stay
• Idiot Hero: everywhere in anime not common in other mediums
• Idol Singer: stay
• Ill Girl: Seems almost a Dead Horse Trope outside of Japan
• Kawaiiko: stay
• Keet: stay
• Kid with the Leash: stay
• The Kid with the Remote Control: stay
• The Klutz:
• Kuudere: stay
  • Rei Ayanami Expy: stay
• Lethal Chef: stay
• Long Haired Prettyboy:
• Lovable Sex Maniac: on the fence.
• Love Freak: stay (although common in others childrens work but in a different form.)
• Magical Girl: stay
  • Cute Witch: on the fence
  • Dark Magical Girl: stay
  • Magical Girl Warrior:stay (this is almost a genre)
  • Magic Idol Singer: stay
• Magical Girlfriend: stay
• Magnetic Girlfriend
• Meganekko We have a TRS
• The Messiah: go
• Miko: Stay
• Mistress and Servant Boy
• Moe: stay oh so much
• Morality Pet: On the fence
• Mysterious Protector: Rare as hell outside japan.
• Naked Shotaro Boy: stay
• Ninja: umm should stay
  • Ninja Maid: stay
• NEET: stay
• Noble Demon: Can go
• Oba-san: stay
• Oblivious Younger Sibling: Stay
• Occidental Otaku: stay
• Office Lady: stay
• Ojou (Princess) Stay
• One-Note Cook: go
• Open-Minded Parent: Not very common outside japanese works
• Oracular Urchin: Can go
• Oranyan: male Tsundere can stay
• Ordinary High-School Student: Should stay its not very common outside anime.
• Otaku: stay
• Otaku Surrogate: stay
• Outside Man, Inside Man: very small trope.
• Panty Thief: stay
• Patient Childhood Love Interest: stay (god This needs a rename so bad)
• Person of Mass Destruction: go
• Pervert Dad: Small trope but mostly anime
• Pettanko: stay
• Phantom Thief: Large anime section small elsewhere.
• Proud Warrior Race Guy: go
• Psycho Supporter: Large anime section small elsewhere
• Red Oni, Blue Oni: Stay but there is a TRS.
• Replacement Goldfish: Go Large across the board
• The Rival: On the fence.
  • Unknown Rival same
• Robot Girl: stay
• Rōnin: stay
• Sakura Girl: stay
• Salaryman: Stay (strange that these dont appear elsewhere much.)
• Samurai: stay
  • Kendo Team Captain: stay
  • Kid Samurai: stay
  • The Shinsengumi: stay
• School Idol: stay
• Schoolgirl Lesbians: stay
  • Psycho Lesbian: Stay
• Schoolgirl Rival: Stay
• School Newspaper Newshound: stay
• Sensei-chan: stay
• Sequential Artist: stay
• Sexbot: on the fence (they appear differently)
• Shallow Love Interest: Go (why isnt this ymmv)
• The Short Guy with Glasses: stay
• Shorttank: stay
• Small Girl, Big Gun: go
• Spaceship Girl: on the fence
• The Stoic: go
  • Stoic Spectacles: Large anime section small elsewhere
• Student Council President: stay
• Supreme Chef: go
• Tall, Dark and Bishoujo: stay
• Tall, Dark, and Snarky: stay
• Temporary Love Interest: go
• The White Prince: go
• Third-Person Person: stay (Its seen as cute to japanese and egotistic to anyone else)
• Those Two Guys: stay
• Token Loli: stay
• Tsundere: stay
  • Kuudere: stay
• Ugly Cute: Go
• Uncanny Valley Girl: stay
• Unflappable Guardian: Stay
• Unlucky Everydude: stay
• Weasel Mascot: stay
• Well, Excuse Me, Princess!: go
• White-Haired Pretty Boy: stay
• Winged Humanoid: the vanishing wings variety seem to be more anime than anything else.
• World's Strongest Man: go
• Wrench Wench: go
• Yakuza: stay
• Yamato Nadeshiko: stay
• Yandere: stay
  • Yangire: stay
• Yaoi Fangirl: stay
• Yaoi Guys: stay
  • Seme: stay
  • Uke: stay
• Yuri Fan: stay

edited 28th Jul '11 7:32:26 PM by Raso

Raso, I'm not sure you understand what we're doing here. It's supposed to be rooted in either Japanese culture or anime, so much so that it would be surprising to see it anywhere else.

No they are flat out different from them. those shouldnt even be there. Calling it a Stock Character should apply to every medium across the world. we need to break that up into American Stock Character or English Stock Character then too and only Stock Character for the big ones that go across the world.

If there is a huge Japanese medium section (like a 100) and a small western section (less than 10 per medium) it should be on the page. they arnt a stock character for everyone else they would be rare. if they are applied equally everywhere / universally they would go on the Stock Character index. Anything say American should go on a American Stock Character index or say a British Stock Character.

There is a lot of tropes I support removal there....

There is going to be a big issue where people will just make things Japanese specific because of this too.

edited 28th Jul '11 7:43:41 PM by Raso

No, having a majority of examples from one work is a problem with the page, not an indication that the trope is from Japan. Dipshits writing tropes badly and calling it a medium specific or only building it around examples they know are the problem there.

There are those that are just completely used differently in Japan vs everyone else. Example Third-Person Person in the west this is seen as egotistical, in japan this is seen as cute or childish. (as it is something that really happens for like 2-5 year olds.)

Also if its primarally imbraced by Japanese works and rare in others it should be on the page.

If I am am looking at Japanese Stock Character types we should list all the ones they love to use. (used a bunch everywhere would be the super trope.)

edited 28th Jul '11 11:44:37 PM by Raso

Discar and Deboss have the right of it: the only tropes that qualify for this index are those that either originated in Japan, or those that are very rarely used outside of Japanese culture.

"Japan has a different take on it" doesn't count if the description covers both the Japanese and Western uses of the trope. If Japan truly does have a unique cultural take on a trope that sets it apart from other uses, then a subtrope should by YKTTW'd for it.

Ok, Sandbox.Stock Japanese Characters has been updated. Any tropes mentioned that disagreed with the categories they were currently in have been moved to "Uncertain".

Please look at the sandbox page to make sure I didn't miss anythong.

Since there was no disagreement with Anime In-Laws being removed, I went ahead and put it in the "Remove" listing.

edited 29th Jul '11 6:11:28 AM by Meeble

In regards to Team Mom and Harem Nanny: the main difference I can see is that Team Mom is very action oriented, while Harem Nanny seems to be Harem Romance oriented in the descriptions.

There is a good deal of overlap, but based on the current descriptions and example listings Harem Nanny seems like a definite keep, barring a TRS effort to change it.

Does anyone disagree with that assessment?

edited 29th Jul '11 7:02:53 AM by Meeble

Ehhh Bridge Bunnies (needs a TRS most of the western examples are singular or just not the trope.), Bromantic Foil, Delinquents Yandere, Yangire, Yaoi Guys, Yaoi Fan Girl should stay... Not remove. Gonk is kinda iffy there is a lot of misuse on the page outside of Japanese works thinking it's just for the rare fat person.

Everything else in the remove can be bumped up to Stock Character. (Uncertain should stay.)

edited 29th Jul '11 7:28:33 AM by Raso

Serenity, Marvel Mangaverse, Spaceballs, Quark, all of those are plural and that's not even the whole page. You tend to have some confirmation bias where you don't see things that disagree with what you expert to see.

A big part of the reason some of those tropes don't have more Western examples is because they were stuck on this index and written like they were anime tropes. That doesn't make them anime tropes. It makes them universal tropes that were stunted by being stuck out away from other media.

edited 29th Jul '11 7:17:32 AM by shimaspawn

Huh? Ya lost me there shima... Oh and Spaceballs didnt have any bridge bunnies spaceball one was full of assholes.

edited 29th Jul '11 7:31:46 AM by Raso

It's not a matter of "everythng in 'Uncertain' should stay/go". Things in that category will remain in limbo until there is agreement on whether they should be kept in the main listing or removed.

I did move the other tropes that were mentioned into Uncertain for now.

edited 29th Jul '11 7:44:23 AM by Meeble