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Needs Help: Old Shame

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To-do list:'

  • On-page examples were transplanted from Old Shame to Creator Backlash (except for in-universe examples), but further cleanup and/or sorting may be needed (either merging separate bullet points from the same creator/work or in-universe examples that need to be moved back to Old Shame).
  • Move out-of-universe/meta examples of Old Shame to Creator Backlash, since the former's current definition is being merged with the latter (i.e., whether the work is popular is no longer relevant for Creator Backlash examples). In-universe examples are staying under Old Shame because it is being retooled into an in-universe trope.
  • Cleanup is being tracked using the Old Shame Wick Cleaning sandbox.

    Original post 
~Tropers/themayorofsimpleton gave others permission to launch this thread with their OP.
Mayor's OP: Listed as Needs Help due to being a mixture of Misused and possibly Duplicate Trope and Unclear Description, all at once.

The problem: Old Shame is a Trivia item about a work the creators would rather forget about. How "would rather forget about" is defined is rather unclear, and the description gives a vague answer:

Rule of Thumb: If the creator tries to erase any trace of its existence, shies away from it, moves on to the next question when it's brought up, issues a public apology, or otherwise just tells people not to care about it, it's an Old Shame.

For the sake of this thread, we'll assume that actively wanting the audience to forget about it is the definition, per the Laconic. And with that in mind, the trope is being misused for works that the creators are ashamed of, but don't necessarily go out of their way to make the audience forget about it. There are also duplication concerns with Creator Backlash and a large number of In-Universe examples. As further pointed out by bowserbros:

Old Shame feels like a simultaneous case of "the same but more specific" and "the same but less specific." Its core definition seems to be "Creator Backlash so intense that the creator themselves treats the work as Fanon Discontinuity," while its actual use on this site appears to be in reference to any event, action, incident, etc. that someone's deeply ashamed of (rather than specifically a work).

To prove there was a problem, I and Yindee did a wick check:

The wick check: Link here, but here's the quick results:

  • 10/77, or 12.99%, were correct
  • 43/77, or 55.84%, made no attempt to make the audience forget about the work
  • 5/77, or 6.49%, were other kinds of misuse
  • 9/77, or 11.69%, were In-Universe examples
  • 2/77, or 2.6%, were ZCEs or context-less potholes
  • 7/77, or 9.09%, were unclear, and
  • 1/77, or 1.3%, were unclassifiable

Totaled together, not including In-Universe or unclassifiable wicks, that's

  • 10/77, or 12.99% correct, and
  • 57/77, or 74.03%, incorrect

The wick analysis: So obviously, a large number of wicks were simply "the creator is just ashamed of this work", which is redundant with Creator Backlash. Some of the unclear wicks were additionally speculation on works the creators "might" consider an Old Shame.

The (possible) solutions: I've got a couple that are not mutually exclusive.

  • We could merge Old Shame into Creator Backlash. This is the option I prefer. Examples would be moved over, and if Creator Backlash is too strict then Creator Backlash could be broadened. We could also disambiguate Old Shame's old name into other tropes.
    • On one hand, since the two tropes are so similar, this would make a lot of sense to do. "Creator is ashamed of this work" is IMO an absolutely tropeworthy concept, and this would remove some of the more odd restrictions of the two tropes. On the other hand, we would be cleaning 5,900 articles of wicks, and this new trope could also attract speculation.
  • We could split the In-Universe examples off onto their own trope. Since I mainly checked Trivia wicks for my check, there may actually be even more In-Universe examples than I listed, and this new trope would cover them as suggested by Crossover-Enthusiast in the Wick Check thread.
    • On one hand, this would give these wicks a new home, and IMO is a perfectly valid and tropeworthy concept, as lots of In-Universe characters have made things they are ashamed of. On the other hand, I have zero ideas for names for this new trope, and it may end up getting yarded if no one wants to sponsor it in TLP.

What does everyone else think?

Wick check:

Here we will be performing a wick check for Old Shame.

Why?: While this Trivia item is supposed to be about works that the creator actively tries to make the audience forget about, it gets misused for any work the creator is ashamed of.

Wicks checked: 77/77 (though one of the Forget wicks had three examples that split categories)

Wick totals (taking the noted Ashamed examples into count):

  • 10/77, or 12.99%, were correct
  • 43/77, or 55.84%, made no attempt to make the audience forget about the work
  • 5/77, or 6.49%, were other kinds of misuse
  • 9/77, or 11.69%, were In-Universe examples
  • 2/77, or 2.6%, were ZCEs or context-less potholes
  • 7/77, or 9.09%, were unclear, and
  • 1/77, or 1.3%, were unclassifiable

Totaled together, not including In-Universe or unclassifiable wicks, that's

  • 10/77, or 12.99% correct, and
  • 57/77, or 74.03%, incorrect

    open/close all folders 

    Creator wants you to forget about the work (8/77) (+ 2 Ashamed examples) 
  • DarthWiki.Idiot Design: The Samsung Galaxy Note 7, released in August 2016 and discontinued just two months later. On the surface, it was a great cell phone that competed with any number of comparable phablets. The problem? It was rushed to market to beat Apple's upcoming iPhone 7 (which came out the following month), and this left it with a serious problem: namely, that it had a habit of spontaneously combusting. Samsung hastily recalled the phone in September once it started causing dozens of fires (to the point where aviation safety authorities were telling people not to bring them onto planes), and gave buyers replacements with batteries from a different supplier. When those phones started catching fire as well, it became obvious that the problems had nothing to do with quality control and ran to the heart of the phone's design note . By the time that Samsung discontinued the Galaxy Note 7, it had already become the Ford Pinto of smartphones and a worldwide joke, with every major wireless carrier in the US having already pulled them from sale. Samsung especially doesn't want to be reminded of it, to the point that they ordered YouTube to take down any video showing a mod for Grand Theft Auto V that reskins the Sticky Bombs into the Galaxy Note 7. Censoring reminders of it.
  • Main.Magnum Opus Dissonance:
    • Claude Debussy's opera Pelleas and Melisande was by far his longest completed work and one that he took personal pride in, though it remains one of his less popular works to this day. A few years later financial circumstances forced him to publish "Suite bergamesque," a piano piece dating back to his Old Shame period; its third movement, "Clair de lune," is one of his most famous pieces. Would've kept it unpublished if he could.
    • Sir Alec Guinness had a long and varied career, first on stage where he held his own against Laurence Olivier, then in a film career filled with tour de force performances that culminated in his own personal favorite, Adolf Hitler in The Last Ten Days (a proto-Downfall, if you will). So what film is Guinness best known for? A sci-fi quickie he lambasted as "fairy-tale rubbish". Just ashamed.
    • Michelle Pfeiffer experienced this when Matthew Vaughn cast her in Stardust. He told the actress what his favorite film of hers was - and it was Grease 2. Her reaction was a Flat "What" (as the movie is a major Old Shame for her). Just ashamed.
  • Trivia.Black Critic Guy: His "Top Ten Worst Male/Female Anime Characters" lists. Two of them in fact. All four are now labeled OBSOLETE on his channel. Obsolete means he wants you to forget about it. Correct.
  • Trivia.Chuggaaconroy (2): As he admitted in the second Demon Gate trial video, he deeply regrets his "research" done on Ōkamis final boss, Yami, and the trouble this caused the wikis. His claims that Yami's forms were based on man's destructive desires were based on a YouTube comment on Okami's OST, and he never got around to doing some digging to see if there was anything to back up this argument in Japanese mythology, as the note about this comment got mixed up with the ones that he already confirmed. When he offered a new interpretation of Yami at the end of the final bonus video, he preempted it by stating that it was simply his personal theory and not based in any official statements. Close enough to wanting you to forget about it.'
  • Trivia.Da Things: In July 2021, several older poops were made private due to containing jokes that modern-day Ellie no longer found appropriate. She noted during the Twitch stream where she reviewed these poops that some of them (such as "Faces of Florida") were fine other than one nasty joke here or there and she might remake them without the offending scene. DaThings Archives was eventually created as a side channel for the lightly-edited versions, while more in-depth reimaginings would go on the main channel. Pothole indicates that this creator wants you to forget about them.
  • Trivia.The Grim Adventures Of Billy And Mandy: Vanessa Marshall has distanced herself from her role as Irwin, saying that an African-American actor should have voiced him. "Distanced herself" implies she wants the role forgotten.
  • Trivia.Twilight Pretty Cure: SaoirseParisa regards her Pretty Cure fanfic Twilight Pretty Cure as Old Shame due to the backlash she received over her handling of issues such as rape, victim-blaming and disability. In a nutshell, she was accused of using these topics to create cheap drama and was severely taken to task for "triggering" a reviewer's friend. Though she tried to rewrite the story to make it less offensive, her detractors still weren't satisfied and demanded that she include trigger warnings if she so much as hinted at anything they felt didn't belong in a Pretty Cure fanfic note . Eventually, the controversy led to her abandoning the story, as well as effectively quitting the Pretty Cure fandom, and she later deleted all but the first chapter. Her feelings about the story are summed up in her fanfiction.net profile:
    I'd consider this my Parvum Opus, but a bad yaoi story I wrote in high school was WAAAAAAAAAAY worse, along with my super bad Super Robot Monkey Team fan fics from seventh grade. Deleting most of the story definitely sounds like she wants people to forget about it.
  • OrphanedSeries.Webcomics (2): The author eventually resurfaced on a dedicated Tumblr that archives the entirety of the series, as well as an admission that he considers the series an Old Shame and it will definitely not be returning. Author tries to make the audience forget about the work. Valid.

    Creator is just ashamed of this work (45/77) + above 2 examples 
  • Creator.Jeffrey Dean Morgan: His aforementioned role [cited under Creator Backlash] as a Monster of the Week on Star Trek: Enterprise, which he stated nearly made him quit acting. Hated it but not trying to hide it?
  • InformedAbility.Live Action Films: * The plot of Rhinestone revolves around country singer Jake (played by Dolly Parton) betting her manager she can turn anyone into a C&W type in two weeks; She selects taxi driver Nick, who's played by Sylvester Stallone. His singing at the beginning is genuinely as awful as you're supposed to think it is - but he hasn't improved a jot by the end (hearing him say "You got to be luh-huved" is the kind of thing for which Brain Bleach was invented). No wonder this is an Old Shame for Sly. Doesn't say he's distancing himself, just ashamed.
  • Recap.The Nostalgia Critic S 2 E 35: Invoked: When The Critic discusseed #9, he mentioned that the reason for the eyeliner was due to a one-time video that shall remain nameless. After this, the theme song to "Melvin, Brother of the Joker" played, and The Critic repeatedly told it to shut up. References the supposedly-unnamed thing anyway, thus naming it for audiences to go look up.
  • Trivia.Baldurs Gate: Not the games, but rather the novelizations. Reportedly, Philip Athans was dismayed at the state the novels were released in, as they were first drafts based on early game development notes supplied by BioWare. He submitted his drafts to the publisher with the expectation that they would ask for editing and corrections, but the publisher decided to publish the novels as-is. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Corporate Businessmans Telethon: CBT 2 is frowned upon by the writers of the show due to the writing problems, Paper Lantern speaking full-Chinese (Google Translated as well) instead of speaking in her usual style, and the Turkey suicide pact joke. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Cool Cat Saves The Kids: For Jason Johnson. He did admit to having fun making it but believes the end result deserves its reputation. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Darby Allin: He also appeared on an episode of Sex Sent Me to the E.R., a series about people who engaged in bizarre sex acts that sent them to the ER. Rather understandably, Allin considers it a major Old Shame, later admitting in an interview with Chris Van Vliet that the story in which he was featured on the show was fabricated as he needed the money. Pothole does not mention wanting people to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Glitter: In an interview with Watch What Happens Live, Mariah Carey admits to regretting making this film. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Hermans Head: Yeardley Smith and Hank Azaria don't like to acknowledge that they were on this show. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Late Night With Conan O Brien: Conan has repeatedly stated that he's not a fan of the first couple years of the series, save for his 1994 interview with David Letterman. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about them.
  • Trivia.Gunbuster: Not the series itself, but Gunbuster's design. Anno gave it a single eye because he thought it was unique, but he later decided it was a mistake because it didn't keep the robot recognizable when in shadows (Super Robot Wars, in particular, sometimes has to do a bit of "creative" lighting to get around this). This is why EVA-01 was drawn with two glowing, white eyes on a gloomy purple body. Since he talked about it, he clearly doesn't want it forgotten.
  • Trivia.Inseminoid (1): Judy Geeson has said that this is the worst film that she has done. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Inseminoid (2): To a lesser extent Stephanie Beacham has also said that this film was the worst thing she has done though she enjoyed making it. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Gabriel Iglesias: His stint on Last Comic Standing, which ended with him kicked off the show for secretly using a Blackberry to keep in touch with a loved one. (The producers believed he was actually sending out spoilers.) No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Daniel Amos: "Skeptic's Song", off the first album, is a very flippant response to those who doubt Christianity. Terry Taylor regrets writing those lyrics now, and feels that he sacrificed his integrity to tell Christian listeners what they wanted to hear.
    Terry: [...] It is essentially my ongoing prayer that the work I do somehow intrinsically possesses eternal value and is not simply an exercise in self delusion, ego gratification, and neediness for temporal reward and validation—that is except for a couple of songs on my first record. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Dir En Grey: The La:Sadie's era and Kisaki. Even the band thinks that the era is effectively a moot point by now. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Exit Wounds: Eva Mendes called this a "terrible movie". No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Chuggaaconroy (1): He stated in this panel that, in hindsight, he doesn't look back on Trifecta the Dodrio from his Pokemon XD series fondly. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Chuggaaconroy (3):During Tim's playthrough of Luigi's Mansion on The Runaway Guys, Emile admits that he heavily regrets talking about the supposed Safari Ghost who wanted to keep Luigi's head on a mount, as it caused the myth to become much more widespread than it was initially, which culminated in a YouTube channel that did videos on lost media crediting Chugga as the so-called credible source for said rumor. The reason he even talked about it in the first place was because a fan wrote to him and requested he mention the Safari Ghost at some point, and Chugga naïvely took him at face value. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Big Nate: Lincoln Peirce did a lot of comics in his teens and early twenties that he isn't so proud of. He specifically mentioned once that he "drew comics savaging the teachers [he] didn't care for." He also did a comic in college called Third Floor that he called "a Doonesbury rip-off". No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Avengers Age Of Ultron: In the Making of MCU Book, Marvel Studios admitted financially the film did fine, but creatively not so much. No mention of wanting the audienceto forget about it.
  • Trivia.Al Snow (1): He takes full responsibility for the failure of the Avatar gimmick. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Boogie Nights: Believe it or not, Burt Reynolds viewed the film as this. After seeing a rough cut of the film, Reynolds fired his agent for recommending it and refused to ever work with Paul Thomas Anderson again. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.GOT7: The "Stop Stop It" era. The members hated the styling so much that Bambam once said, "No comeback would be better than a 'Stop Stop It' comeback," and Jackson continually references it as proof that their fans love them, since they stuck with GOT7 through the era. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Hotel For Dogs: Don Cheadle said in an interview that he regrets doing this film. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Kraftwerk: Ralf Hütter has disowned their first three albums as "prehistoric", and thus they will never be legally reprinted, although it seems that Hütter might have hinted that they might be restored and made available sometime after they release another studio album. Contradicts itself. First it says the creators want the albums to be forgotten, then it says they no longer do. Thus, it is grouped in this category.
  • Trivia.Mission Impossible: Paul Playdon, script consultant in seasons three and four, was so ashamed of his own "Time Bomb" (as were many who worked on the episode) that he actually left the show. (While he contributed "The Catafalque" in season five and has story credit on season six's "The Tram," he never returned as a staff member.) Pothole implies the creators are merely ashamed of the episode.
  • Trivia.Pamela Anderson: Just ashamed, it seems.
    • Her first film Raw Justice, due to the sex scenes she had to do.
    "I was thrown around, I was scratched, I was bruised, I was bitten. I cried, I went home, I called my mother"
    • She had such a bad experience on Good Cop, Bad Cop that she swore off doing sex scenes for film afterwards.
  • Trivia.Pa Rappa The Rapper: Greenblat was ultimately not satisfied with how the anime turned out, especially with his (or even Matsuura's) lack of creative input. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Seth In The Pokecity: KalloFox34 admits that the fanfic suffered from rather scentless writing and gags strung together messily. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Starflyer 59: Fans may love it, but Jason says he can't stand to listen to Silver anymore. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.The Bonfire Of The Vanities: Morgan Freeman considers this film the one major nightmare of his career. He recalled that being in the film was like being on an aeroplane that you knew was going to crash. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.The Object Show: The creator Kaie Goodman has stated that they do not like this show, and that they were only young when they made it. The descriptions of the videos were eventually revised, consisting of their own complaints of their show. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it, per se.
  • Trivia.Young Justice Abridged: Word of God considers the first 3 episodes to be this. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.The Waitresses: Subverted as Butler thinks the music on their second album, Bruiseology is very good, but he’s still not proud of the record, because the band had just gotten off the road and thus were irritable during recording, and he regretted that it lead to the band falling apart. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.Jennifer Garner: The Elektra movie. She only did it due to contractual obligations from Daredevil. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.David Lynch: Dune (1984) — Based on the novel by Frank Herbert; famous for making the already dense source material nigh-incomprehensible, and for being publicly disowned by Lynch due to the amount of Executive Meddling he faced. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.Jessica Biel (in description): Jessica Claire Biel (born on March 3, 1982 in Ely, Minnesota) is an American actress whose big break, much to her chagrin, was in 7th Heaven. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.Zoe Saldana (1): Apparently she didn't like starring in Crossroads (2002). No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.Zoe Saldana (2): Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, not for the quality of the movie itself, but for personal issues she faced behind the scenes. She has said "they weren't the right people for me" and did not return for any of the sequels. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.Zoe Saldana (3): She also expressed regret for playing Nina Simone in 2020 following the George Floyd protests, which triggered a media reckoning to try to reassess any potential racism in existing media and prevent any racially insensitive practices in the production of future media, which would include casting actors that fully match the ethnicity of the character they are playing. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • HostilityOnTheSet.Professional Wrestling: Katey Harvey was constantly clashing with Lee, first for being booked in a degrading 'Hairspray on a Pole' match that she's embarrassed of to this day. Then for unsafe working conditions - she publicly denounced them when Lorcan Wood got a broken jaw thanks to his inexperienced opponent. She continued working for them for a few more years, but eventually stopped after a show where a botch led to an opponent getting a broken neck. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Literature.Sixth Column: The novel is actually a version of John W. Campbell's All with the racism toned down. Heinlein considered Sixth Column an Old Shame that he wrote to garner the favor of the racist but influential Campbell. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Music.Bjork: Canon Discontinuity / Old Shame: She doesn't acknowledge her 1977 album. Not to mention that she named her 1993 album Debut! No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it plus trope slashing with Canon Discontinuity.
  • Music.Rubber Soul: "Run For Your Life". At its heart, the message of this song is that if you decide to end a relationship with the singer, he will hunt you down and murder you. As with the earlier "You Can't Do That", Lennon later regarded this song as an Old Shame. No mention of an attempt to make the audience forget about this song.

    Other misuse (5/77) 
  • AmericansHateTingle.Anime And Manga: Attack on Titan has become this in South Korea, despite starting off as popular as it was back in Japan and in the West, to the point that the series have become Old Shame to Koreans who otherwise enjoy anime and manga. This is due to revelations that mangaka Hajime Isayama has admitted to basing a character off Akiyama Yoshifuru, an infamous Imperial Japanese Army general and has reportedly sympathized with nationalism and Imperial Japan. Old Shame is a creator trope, not an audience trope.
  • Characters.Doctor Who Masters: Ambiguous Situation: It's implied during "Spyfall, Part 2" that he is indeed the incarnation after Missy — he makes an offhanded comment that he feels that murdering is what he was born to be doing, vaguely alluding to Missy's attempt to reform. Eventually, the 2021 Annual outright confirms he succeeded Missy. During a feature showing correspondence between the Doctor and the Master, she brings up the time he became a woman and almost turned good. His response? "She spent too long in your company, Doctor -- a mistake I don’t intend to repeat." Not sure what Old Shame is doing there in that last line, honestly.
  • Heartwarming.Monte Fjanton: Whenever Felix reviews an Old Shame of his, he will take some time of the video to talk about how even if he's embarrassed, he's glad he made the thing he reviewed because more often than not, it's somewhat nostalgic to him, and may even have helped him become who he is today. On a similar note, he makes it clear that if you're embarrassed of who you were or what you did in your past, that can only be a good thing because it means you've grown and developed. Embarrassed but not ashamed. Love the guy's take on it though.
  • Trivia.Al Snow (2): Snow doesn't dislike the Head gimmick so much as he is disappointed in himself for not getting more out of it, saying at the time he didn't understand why it worked or how to draw money with it. The creator wasn't even ashamed of his specific work here.
  • Trivia.Toonsylvania: As with all of their pre-Shrek works, any traces of this show appear to have been wiped clean from DreamWorks Animation's history, to the point that they list The Penguins of Madagascar as their first TV show.note  Doesn't really say that the creator is ashamed of this story. Belongs better in Keep Circulating the Tapes, which already has an entry.

    In-Universe usage (9/77) 
  • Characters.Bun Al Gun: In-Universe, he sees his old works like this and becomes a taint in order to destroy them in spite of his associates' wishes.
  • Podcast.Podcast The Ride: In-universe; Mike "starred" in a segment of Manswers as one of his first gigs as a young actor in Hollywood, which answered the question, "Why shouldn't you get a handjob from a British chick?" That appearance not only turned out to be a deeply uncomfortable and unprofessional experience, but also turned out to be one of the first times his parents saw him on TV.
  • Recap.SCP Foundation Other SC Ps:
    • In-Universe. Dr. Cartwright might have rigorously believed the highly racist beliefs he was spewing when he drafted the original document, but one of his descendants later tries to have it quietly deleted from from the Foundation's archives, due to how badly it reflects on his family's legacy.
    • Warts and All: In 1916, after the language of the document has been rendered unacceptable and highly offensive, a member of the later generations of the Cartwright family puts in a request for it, as well all copies and all records of it being destroyed, due to his family involvement with the racist politics expressed in the document having been rendered an invoked Old Shame. The O5 council refuses this requests, and basically tells Dr. Cartwright that they won't whitewash history just for his or his family's sake, and that it is better that they remember the organisation's ugly past than try to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never existed.
  • Series.Bones: In-Universe with Cam's role in an amateur schlock movie as '70s bloodsucking vampire with a Funny Afro, from "The Suit on the Set".
  • TabletopGame.Ars Magica: In-universe. Ranulf of Flambeau was a militant, angry young warrior, and chose a scary-looking dagger as his voting sigil. As he grew older and mellowed out, he found himself embarrassed with it.
  • Film.The Final Girls: Dramatic Irony: There's a good sense that Amanda's financial problems, as well as lack of success as an actress, is due to her treatment of her past as a horror icon as an Old Shame. She complains about being only recognized as a Scream Queen but it's the only thing she's done of any note and they DO recognize her. The movie also makes it clear that Camp Bloodbath, as a Captain Ersatz for Friday the 13th, has an active and vocal fandom that wants to see her. In-Universe example.
  • Funny.Persona 5 Strikers: Futaba brings up Haru's "Beauty Thief" alias during a briefing with Zenkichi. When Zenkichi asks what the whole "Beauty Thief" thing is about, Haru spouts, "My name is Beauty Thief!" on cue. Zenkichi looks exasperated and expresses disapproval that she would call herself that. The next morning, you can have an optional conversation with Haru where she expresses her embarrassment over her "Beauty Thief" nickname, saying that she's been going along with the name only because she looked up to that image and totally not because she thinks she's one. A second optional conversation has her saying that she is a college student and an adult, and therefore the name no longer applies to her.note  In-Universe pothole.
  • Narm.Sonic The Hedgehog: And let's not forget, said panel happens as a result of Sally accusing Sonic of being "so selfish." And why? For having to prioritise protecting the world and their loved ones from Robotnik as opposed to calling it all off to settle down with her, despite him taking the time to sincerely apologise and rationally explain why they can't get married yet beforehand. Notably, he only gets just as angry back when she hits him and insults his entire worldview and motivations; downplaying them to him only caring about "punching out Robotnik's lights". The whole setup — especially combined with her aforementioned bizarre faces and radical change in personality out of nowhere with little-to-no buildup — just makes Sally look incredibly unhinged and impossible to take seriously. It's no wonder why she hates being reminded of it In-Universe after her eventual Character Rerailment. In-Universe pothole.
  • Recap.Star Trek Enterprise S 04 E 19 Demons: In-Universe. Minister Samuels was a member of Terra Prime years ago, after his father was killed in a shuttle crash that he blamed on the Denobulan pilot. Archer doesn't expose him, but does use this intel as leverage to take control of the investigation.
    Samuels: I was very young when I joined Terra Prime.
    Archer: You were eighteen.
    Samuels: Didn't you make any questionable choices when you were that age, Captain? It was a stupid mistake. I was a fool. My father had died in a freighter accident and I blamed the pilot, who happened to be Denobulan. We all have our demons. I've exorcised mine.
    Archer: I don't care what you did when you were young, Minister. I need your help.
    Samuels: I underestimated you. I suppose I'm not the first person to make that mistake. You'll have your case file within the hour. In-Universe usage.

    ZCEs and context-less potholes (2/77) 
  • Finally, there was the "home run derby" era of the late '90s and early '00s, with players such as Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, and Barry Bonds at the forefront. Initially, this was seen as the end of baseball's A.A.E., with the sport rising to heights of popularity perhaps not seen in decades; millions of people were tuning in to watch superstar athletes race to shatter home-run records. However, things turned around quickly once it was revealed where this sudden surge in athleticism was coming from: steroid use so rampant that it triggered a Congressional investigation. Everyone in baseball, along with many fans, now treats that era as one of the most disgraceful episodes in baseball history due to the fact that many of its biggest stars were revealed to have been either doping or engaging in other forms of cheating (like Sammy Sosa's corked bat), with MLB officials turning a blind eye due to the fact that the sport was popular again. Pothole.
  • LetsPlay.Achievement Hunter Minecraft Series: A few of the less-well-thought-out Lets Plays have become this, especially the original Creeper Soccer and Twelve Towers (repeatedly referred to by Geoff and Gavin as the ugliest thing they've ever built). No context.

    Unclear (7/77) 
  • Trivia.Near Chris: How he views most of the videos he’s removed from his channel, and even how he views many of the videos currently on his channel. Mixture of correct and incorrect.
  • Trivia.Miliyah Kato: My Girl is suspiciously absent from both the album it would have logically appeared on and the latest compilation album. It's possible that she (or her agent) didn't want to include a cover on her albums, but it's not a terrible rendition of the song by any means and even Koda Kumi has released covers onto regular albums and compilations. Unfortunately, this may always remain a mystery. "Possible" example, a.k.a. speculation.
  • Trivia.Luke Combs: Early in his career, he appeared in the music video of another country artist who chose to festoon said video with the Confederate flag. In response, Combs took his name off the single and explicitly stated regret for appearing in it. Depends on if taking his name off means he wants you to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Nutbrown Pooper: Neo thinks some of the old videos are cringy when he gets older, especially Yoshi's Adventures, which leads to cancellation. Unclear on if cancellation means he wants it to be forgotten as written.
  • Fanfic.So What Colour Is Your Toothbrush: Exactly What It Says on the Tin: The 'totally not smut fanfics' book that two Old Shames were pulled from. None of the fics in it were actually explicit. Unclear on if this is In-Universe or not.
  • GoAnimate.Tropes Specific A To F: One video by African Vulture that was later taken down (presumably because of Old Shame) featured Caillou loudly announcing that "Steven Universe sucks" (with Steven and the Crystal Gems in earshot, no less). He is promptly booed by everyone nearby and Boris lays into Caillou over how he could possibly hate "the greatest show ever", leaving the now-grounded Caillou to leave in humiliation. Speculative pothole. Valid if true, but since we don't know it is listed as unclear.
  • OrphanedSeries.Webcomics (1): Shredded Moose was abandoned and taken offline after it ended. Many of the strips are still missing. Given the comic's rather negative reputation, most have assumed the creators considered it an Old Shame. Speculative example. Valid if true, but since it is speculation it is listed as unclear.

    Unclassifiable (1/77) 
  • Radio.Adventures In Odyssey: Take That Me: The rap song "Communicate" (from the pulled episode "Lights Out At Whit's End") gets this treatment in a scene from the 2015 episode "Out of the Woods". It's...meta?
    Detective Don Polehaus: "And the old cassette player?"
    Eugene Meltsner: "I unearthed it from Mr. Whittaker's archives. When I push the button..." <pushes it>
    Whit/Kids (on tape): "...Share the gospel before it's too late, and the best way to do it is communicate!"
    Detective Polehaus (overlapping): "You’ll wanna change that."
    Eugene: "Well, Perhaps so."


Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 31st 2022 at 10:32:58 AM

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#1: Jun 13th 2022 at 4:15:21 PM

To-do list:'

  • On-page examples were transplanted from Old Shame to Creator Backlash (except for in-universe examples), but further cleanup and/or sorting may be needed (either merging separate bullet points from the same creator/work or in-universe examples that need to be moved back to Old Shame).
  • Move out-of-universe/meta examples of Old Shame to Creator Backlash, since the former's current definition is being merged with the latter (i.e., whether the work is popular is no longer relevant for Creator Backlash examples). In-universe examples are staying under Old Shame because it is being retooled into an in-universe trope.
  • Cleanup is being tracked using the Old Shame Wick Cleaning sandbox.

    Original post 
~Tropers/themayorofsimpleton gave others permission to launch this thread with their OP.
Mayor's OP: Listed as Needs Help due to being a mixture of Misused and possibly Duplicate Trope and Unclear Description, all at once.

The problem: Old Shame is a Trivia item about a work the creators would rather forget about. How "would rather forget about" is defined is rather unclear, and the description gives a vague answer:

Rule of Thumb: If the creator tries to erase any trace of its existence, shies away from it, moves on to the next question when it's brought up, issues a public apology, or otherwise just tells people not to care about it, it's an Old Shame.

For the sake of this thread, we'll assume that actively wanting the audience to forget about it is the definition, per the Laconic. And with that in mind, the trope is being misused for works that the creators are ashamed of, but don't necessarily go out of their way to make the audience forget about it. There are also duplication concerns with Creator Backlash and a large number of In-Universe examples. As further pointed out by bowserbros:

Old Shame feels like a simultaneous case of "the same but more specific" and "the same but less specific." Its core definition seems to be "Creator Backlash so intense that the creator themselves treats the work as Fanon Discontinuity," while its actual use on this site appears to be in reference to any event, action, incident, etc. that someone's deeply ashamed of (rather than specifically a work).

To prove there was a problem, I and Yindee did a wick check:

The wick check: Link here, but here's the quick results:

  • 10/77, or 12.99%, were correct
  • 43/77, or 55.84%, made no attempt to make the audience forget about the work
  • 5/77, or 6.49%, were other kinds of misuse
  • 9/77, or 11.69%, were In-Universe examples
  • 2/77, or 2.6%, were ZCEs or context-less potholes
  • 7/77, or 9.09%, were unclear, and
  • 1/77, or 1.3%, were unclassifiable

Totaled together, not including In-Universe or unclassifiable wicks, that's

  • 10/77, or 12.99% correct, and
  • 57/77, or 74.03%, incorrect

The wick analysis: So obviously, a large number of wicks were simply "the creator is just ashamed of this work", which is redundant with Creator Backlash. Some of the unclear wicks were additionally speculation on works the creators "might" consider an Old Shame.

The (possible) solutions: I've got a couple that are not mutually exclusive.

  • We could merge Old Shame into Creator Backlash. This is the option I prefer. Examples would be moved over, and if Creator Backlash is too strict then Creator Backlash could be broadened. We could also disambiguate Old Shame's old name into other tropes.
    • On one hand, since the two tropes are so similar, this would make a lot of sense to do. "Creator is ashamed of this work" is IMO an absolutely tropeworthy concept, and this would remove some of the more odd restrictions of the two tropes. On the other hand, we would be cleaning 5,900 articles of wicks, and this new trope could also attract speculation.
  • We could split the In-Universe examples off onto their own trope. Since I mainly checked Trivia wicks for my check, there may actually be even more In-Universe examples than I listed, and this new trope would cover them as suggested by Crossover-Enthusiast in the Wick Check thread.
    • On one hand, this would give these wicks a new home, and IMO is a perfectly valid and tropeworthy concept, as lots of In-Universe characters have made things they are ashamed of. On the other hand, I have zero ideas for names for this new trope, and it may end up getting yarded if no one wants to sponsor it in TLP.

What does everyone else think?

Wick check:

Here we will be performing a wick check for Old Shame.

Why?: While this Trivia item is supposed to be about works that the creator actively tries to make the audience forget about, it gets misused for any work the creator is ashamed of.

Wicks checked: 77/77 (though one of the Forget wicks had three examples that split categories)

Wick totals (taking the noted Ashamed examples into count):

  • 10/77, or 12.99%, were correct
  • 43/77, or 55.84%, made no attempt to make the audience forget about the work
  • 5/77, or 6.49%, were other kinds of misuse
  • 9/77, or 11.69%, were In-Universe examples
  • 2/77, or 2.6%, were ZCEs or context-less potholes
  • 7/77, or 9.09%, were unclear, and
  • 1/77, or 1.3%, were unclassifiable

Totaled together, not including In-Universe or unclassifiable wicks, that's

  • 10/77, or 12.99% correct, and
  • 57/77, or 74.03%, incorrect

    open/close all folders 

    Creator wants you to forget about the work (8/77) (+ 2 Ashamed examples) 
  • DarthWiki.Idiot Design: The Samsung Galaxy Note 7, released in August 2016 and discontinued just two months later. On the surface, it was a great cell phone that competed with any number of comparable phablets. The problem? It was rushed to market to beat Apple's upcoming iPhone 7 (which came out the following month), and this left it with a serious problem: namely, that it had a habit of spontaneously combusting. Samsung hastily recalled the phone in September once it started causing dozens of fires (to the point where aviation safety authorities were telling people not to bring them onto planes), and gave buyers replacements with batteries from a different supplier. When those phones started catching fire as well, it became obvious that the problems had nothing to do with quality control and ran to the heart of the phone's design note . By the time that Samsung discontinued the Galaxy Note 7, it had already become the Ford Pinto of smartphones and a worldwide joke, with every major wireless carrier in the US having already pulled them from sale. Samsung especially doesn't want to be reminded of it, to the point that they ordered YouTube to take down any video showing a mod for Grand Theft Auto V that reskins the Sticky Bombs into the Galaxy Note 7. Censoring reminders of it.
  • Main.Magnum Opus Dissonance:
    • Claude Debussy's opera Pelleas and Melisande was by far his longest completed work and one that he took personal pride in, though it remains one of his less popular works to this day. A few years later financial circumstances forced him to publish "Suite bergamesque," a piano piece dating back to his Old Shame period; its third movement, "Clair de lune," is one of his most famous pieces. Would've kept it unpublished if he could.
    • Sir Alec Guinness had a long and varied career, first on stage where he held his own against Laurence Olivier, then in a film career filled with tour de force performances that culminated in his own personal favorite, Adolf Hitler in The Last Ten Days (a proto-Downfall, if you will). So what film is Guinness best known for? A sci-fi quickie he lambasted as "fairy-tale rubbish". Just ashamed.
    • Michelle Pfeiffer experienced this when Matthew Vaughn cast her in Stardust. He told the actress what his favorite film of hers was - and it was Grease 2. Her reaction was a Flat "What" (as the movie is a major Old Shame for her). Just ashamed.
  • Trivia.Black Critic Guy: His "Top Ten Worst Male/Female Anime Characters" lists. Two of them in fact. All four are now labeled OBSOLETE on his channel. Obsolete means he wants you to forget about it. Correct.
  • Trivia.Chuggaaconroy (2): As he admitted in the second Demon Gate trial video, he deeply regrets his "research" done on Ōkamis final boss, Yami, and the trouble this caused the wikis. His claims that Yami's forms were based on man's destructive desires were based on a YouTube comment on Okami's OST, and he never got around to doing some digging to see if there was anything to back up this argument in Japanese mythology, as the note about this comment got mixed up with the ones that he already confirmed. When he offered a new interpretation of Yami at the end of the final bonus video, he preempted it by stating that it was simply his personal theory and not based in any official statements. Close enough to wanting you to forget about it.'
  • Trivia.Da Things: In July 2021, several older poops were made private due to containing jokes that modern-day Ellie no longer found appropriate. She noted during the Twitch stream where she reviewed these poops that some of them (such as "Faces of Florida") were fine other than one nasty joke here or there and she might remake them without the offending scene. DaThings Archives was eventually created as a side channel for the lightly-edited versions, while more in-depth reimaginings would go on the main channel. Pothole indicates that this creator wants you to forget about them.
  • Trivia.The Grim Adventures Of Billy And Mandy: Vanessa Marshall has distanced herself from her role as Irwin, saying that an African-American actor should have voiced him. "Distanced herself" implies she wants the role forgotten.
  • Trivia.Twilight Pretty Cure: SaoirseParisa regards her Pretty Cure fanfic Twilight Pretty Cure as Old Shame due to the backlash she received over her handling of issues such as rape, victim-blaming and disability. In a nutshell, she was accused of using these topics to create cheap drama and was severely taken to task for "triggering" a reviewer's friend. Though she tried to rewrite the story to make it less offensive, her detractors still weren't satisfied and demanded that she include trigger warnings if she so much as hinted at anything they felt didn't belong in a Pretty Cure fanfic note . Eventually, the controversy led to her abandoning the story, as well as effectively quitting the Pretty Cure fandom, and she later deleted all but the first chapter. Her feelings about the story are summed up in her fanfiction.net profile:
    I'd consider this my Parvum Opus, but a bad yaoi story I wrote in high school was WAAAAAAAAAAY worse, along with my super bad Super Robot Monkey Team fan fics from seventh grade. Deleting most of the story definitely sounds like she wants people to forget about it.
  • OrphanedSeries.Webcomics (2): The author eventually resurfaced on a dedicated Tumblr that archives the entirety of the series, as well as an admission that he considers the series an Old Shame and it will definitely not be returning. Author tries to make the audience forget about the work. Valid.

    Creator is just ashamed of this work (45/77) + above 2 examples 
  • Creator.Jeffrey Dean Morgan: His aforementioned role [cited under Creator Backlash] as a Monster of the Week on Star Trek: Enterprise, which he stated nearly made him quit acting. Hated it but not trying to hide it?
  • InformedAbility.Live Action Films: * The plot of Rhinestone revolves around country singer Jake (played by Dolly Parton) betting her manager she can turn anyone into a C&W type in two weeks; She selects taxi driver Nick, who's played by Sylvester Stallone. His singing at the beginning is genuinely as awful as you're supposed to think it is - but he hasn't improved a jot by the end (hearing him say "You got to be luh-huved" is the kind of thing for which Brain Bleach was invented). No wonder this is an Old Shame for Sly. Doesn't say he's distancing himself, just ashamed.
  • Recap.The Nostalgia Critic S 2 E 35: Invoked: When The Critic discusseed #9, he mentioned that the reason for the eyeliner was due to a one-time video that shall remain nameless. After this, the theme song to "Melvin, Brother of the Joker" played, and The Critic repeatedly told it to shut up. References the supposedly-unnamed thing anyway, thus naming it for audiences to go look up.
  • Trivia.Baldurs Gate: Not the games, but rather the novelizations. Reportedly, Philip Athans was dismayed at the state the novels were released in, as they were first drafts based on early game development notes supplied by BioWare. He submitted his drafts to the publisher with the expectation that they would ask for editing and corrections, but the publisher decided to publish the novels as-is. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Corporate Businessmans Telethon: CBT 2 is frowned upon by the writers of the show due to the writing problems, Paper Lantern speaking full-Chinese (Google Translated as well) instead of speaking in her usual style, and the Turkey suicide pact joke. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Cool Cat Saves The Kids: For Jason Johnson. He did admit to having fun making it but believes the end result deserves its reputation. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Darby Allin: He also appeared on an episode of Sex Sent Me to the E.R., a series about people who engaged in bizarre sex acts that sent them to the ER. Rather understandably, Allin considers it a major Old Shame, later admitting in an interview with Chris Van Vliet that the story in which he was featured on the show was fabricated as he needed the money. Pothole does not mention wanting people to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Glitter: In an interview with Watch What Happens Live, Mariah Carey admits to regretting making this film. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Hermans Head: Yeardley Smith and Hank Azaria don't like to acknowledge that they were on this show. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Late Night With Conan O Brien: Conan has repeatedly stated that he's not a fan of the first couple years of the series, save for his 1994 interview with David Letterman. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about them.
  • Trivia.Gunbuster: Not the series itself, but Gunbuster's design. Anno gave it a single eye because he thought it was unique, but he later decided it was a mistake because it didn't keep the robot recognizable when in shadows (Super Robot Wars, in particular, sometimes has to do a bit of "creative" lighting to get around this). This is why EVA-01 was drawn with two glowing, white eyes on a gloomy purple body. Since he talked about it, he clearly doesn't want it forgotten.
  • Trivia.Inseminoid (1): Judy Geeson has said that this is the worst film that she has done. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Inseminoid (2): To a lesser extent Stephanie Beacham has also said that this film was the worst thing she has done though she enjoyed making it. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Gabriel Iglesias: His stint on Last Comic Standing, which ended with him kicked off the show for secretly using a Blackberry to keep in touch with a loved one. (The producers believed he was actually sending out spoilers.) No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Daniel Amos: "Skeptic's Song", off the first album, is a very flippant response to those who doubt Christianity. Terry Taylor regrets writing those lyrics now, and feels that he sacrificed his integrity to tell Christian listeners what they wanted to hear.
    Terry: [...] It is essentially my ongoing prayer that the work I do somehow intrinsically possesses eternal value and is not simply an exercise in self delusion, ego gratification, and neediness for temporal reward and validation—that is except for a couple of songs on my first record. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Dir En Grey: The La:Sadie's era and Kisaki. Even the band thinks that the era is effectively a moot point by now. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Exit Wounds: Eva Mendes called this a "terrible movie". No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Chuggaaconroy (1): He stated in this panel that, in hindsight, he doesn't look back on Trifecta the Dodrio from his Pokemon XD series fondly. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Chuggaaconroy (3):During Tim's playthrough of Luigi's Mansion on The Runaway Guys, Emile admits that he heavily regrets talking about the supposed Safari Ghost who wanted to keep Luigi's head on a mount, as it caused the myth to become much more widespread than it was initially, which culminated in a YouTube channel that did videos on lost media crediting Chugga as the so-called credible source for said rumor. The reason he even talked about it in the first place was because a fan wrote to him and requested he mention the Safari Ghost at some point, and Chugga naïvely took him at face value. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Big Nate: Lincoln Peirce did a lot of comics in his teens and early twenties that he isn't so proud of. He specifically mentioned once that he "drew comics savaging the teachers [he] didn't care for." He also did a comic in college called Third Floor that he called "a Doonesbury rip-off". No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Avengers Age Of Ultron: In the Making of MCU Book, Marvel Studios admitted financially the film did fine, but creatively not so much. No mention of wanting the audienceto forget about it.
  • Trivia.Al Snow (1): He takes full responsibility for the failure of the Avatar gimmick. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Boogie Nights: Believe it or not, Burt Reynolds viewed the film as this. After seeing a rough cut of the film, Reynolds fired his agent for recommending it and refused to ever work with Paul Thomas Anderson again. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.GOT7: The "Stop Stop It" era. The members hated the styling so much that Bambam once said, "No comeback would be better than a 'Stop Stop It' comeback," and Jackson continually references it as proof that their fans love them, since they stuck with GOT7 through the era. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Hotel For Dogs: Don Cheadle said in an interview that he regrets doing this film. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Kraftwerk: Ralf Hütter has disowned their first three albums as "prehistoric", and thus they will never be legally reprinted, although it seems that Hütter might have hinted that they might be restored and made available sometime after they release another studio album. Contradicts itself. First it says the creators want the albums to be forgotten, then it says they no longer do. Thus, it is grouped in this category.
  • Trivia.Mission Impossible: Paul Playdon, script consultant in seasons three and four, was so ashamed of his own "Time Bomb" (as were many who worked on the episode) that he actually left the show. (While he contributed "The Catafalque" in season five and has story credit on season six's "The Tram," he never returned as a staff member.) Pothole implies the creators are merely ashamed of the episode.
  • Trivia.Pamela Anderson: Just ashamed, it seems.
    • Her first film Raw Justice, due to the sex scenes she had to do.
    "I was thrown around, I was scratched, I was bruised, I was bitten. I cried, I went home, I called my mother"
    • She had such a bad experience on Good Cop, Bad Cop that she swore off doing sex scenes for film afterwards.
  • Trivia.Pa Rappa The Rapper: Greenblat was ultimately not satisfied with how the anime turned out, especially with his (or even Matsuura's) lack of creative input. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Seth In The Pokecity: KalloFox34 admits that the fanfic suffered from rather scentless writing and gags strung together messily. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Starflyer 59: Fans may love it, but Jason says he can't stand to listen to Silver anymore. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.The Bonfire Of The Vanities: Morgan Freeman considers this film the one major nightmare of his career. He recalled that being in the film was like being on an aeroplane that you knew was going to crash. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.The Object Show: The creator Kaie Goodman has stated that they do not like this show, and that they were only young when they made it. The descriptions of the videos were eventually revised, consisting of their own complaints of their show. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it, per se.
  • Trivia.Young Justice Abridged: Word of God considers the first 3 episodes to be this. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Trivia.The Waitresses: Subverted as Butler thinks the music on their second album, Bruiseology is very good, but he’s still not proud of the record, because the band had just gotten off the road and thus were irritable during recording, and he regretted that it lead to the band falling apart. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.Jennifer Garner: The Elektra movie. She only did it due to contractual obligations from Daredevil. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.David Lynch: Dune (1984) — Based on the novel by Frank Herbert; famous for making the already dense source material nigh-incomprehensible, and for being publicly disowned by Lynch due to the amount of Executive Meddling he faced. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.Jessica Biel (in description): Jessica Claire Biel (born on March 3, 1982 in Ely, Minnesota) is an American actress whose big break, much to her chagrin, was in 7th Heaven. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.Zoe Saldana (1): Apparently she didn't like starring in Crossroads (2002). No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.Zoe Saldana (2): Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, not for the quality of the movie itself, but for personal issues she faced behind the scenes. She has said "they weren't the right people for me" and did not return for any of the sequels. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Creator.Zoe Saldana (3): She also expressed regret for playing Nina Simone in 2020 following the George Floyd protests, which triggered a media reckoning to try to reassess any potential racism in existing media and prevent any racially insensitive practices in the production of future media, which would include casting actors that fully match the ethnicity of the character they are playing. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • HostilityOnTheSet.Professional Wrestling: Katey Harvey was constantly clashing with Lee, first for being booked in a degrading 'Hairspray on a Pole' match that she's embarrassed of to this day. Then for unsafe working conditions - she publicly denounced them when Lorcan Wood got a broken jaw thanks to his inexperienced opponent. She continued working for them for a few more years, but eventually stopped after a show where a botch led to an opponent getting a broken neck. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Literature.Sixth Column: The novel is actually a version of John W. Campbell's All with the racism toned down. Heinlein considered Sixth Column an Old Shame that he wrote to garner the favor of the racist but influential Campbell. No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it.
  • Music.Bjork: Canon Discontinuity / Old Shame: She doesn't acknowledge her 1977 album. Not to mention that she named her 1993 album Debut! No mention of wanting the audience to forget about it plus trope slashing with Canon Discontinuity.
  • Music.Rubber Soul: "Run For Your Life". At its heart, the message of this song is that if you decide to end a relationship with the singer, he will hunt you down and murder you. As with the earlier "You Can't Do That", Lennon later regarded this song as an Old Shame. No mention of an attempt to make the audience forget about this song.

    Other misuse (5/77) 
  • AmericansHateTingle.Anime And Manga: Attack on Titan has become this in South Korea, despite starting off as popular as it was back in Japan and in the West, to the point that the series have become Old Shame to Koreans who otherwise enjoy anime and manga. This is due to revelations that mangaka Hajime Isayama has admitted to basing a character off Akiyama Yoshifuru, an infamous Imperial Japanese Army general and has reportedly sympathized with nationalism and Imperial Japan. Old Shame is a creator trope, not an audience trope.
  • Characters.Doctor Who Masters: Ambiguous Situation: It's implied during "Spyfall, Part 2" that he is indeed the incarnation after Missy — he makes an offhanded comment that he feels that murdering is what he was born to be doing, vaguely alluding to Missy's attempt to reform. Eventually, the 2021 Annual outright confirms he succeeded Missy. During a feature showing correspondence between the Doctor and the Master, she brings up the time he became a woman and almost turned good. His response? "She spent too long in your company, Doctor -- a mistake I don’t intend to repeat." Not sure what Old Shame is doing there in that last line, honestly.
  • Heartwarming.Monte Fjanton: Whenever Felix reviews an Old Shame of his, he will take some time of the video to talk about how even if he's embarrassed, he's glad he made the thing he reviewed because more often than not, it's somewhat nostalgic to him, and may even have helped him become who he is today. On a similar note, he makes it clear that if you're embarrassed of who you were or what you did in your past, that can only be a good thing because it means you've grown and developed. Embarrassed but not ashamed. Love the guy's take on it though.
  • Trivia.Al Snow (2): Snow doesn't dislike the Head gimmick so much as he is disappointed in himself for not getting more out of it, saying at the time he didn't understand why it worked or how to draw money with it. The creator wasn't even ashamed of his specific work here.
  • Trivia.Toonsylvania: As with all of their pre-Shrek works, any traces of this show appear to have been wiped clean from DreamWorks Animation's history, to the point that they list The Penguins of Madagascar as their first TV show.note  Doesn't really say that the creator is ashamed of this story. Belongs better in Keep Circulating the Tapes, which already has an entry.

    In-Universe usage (9/77) 
  • Characters.Bun Al Gun: In-Universe, he sees his old works like this and becomes a taint in order to destroy them in spite of his associates' wishes.
  • Podcast.Podcast The Ride: In-universe; Mike "starred" in a segment of Manswers as one of his first gigs as a young actor in Hollywood, which answered the question, "Why shouldn't you get a handjob from a British chick?" That appearance not only turned out to be a deeply uncomfortable and unprofessional experience, but also turned out to be one of the first times his parents saw him on TV.
  • Recap.SCP Foundation Other SC Ps:
    • In-Universe. Dr. Cartwright might have rigorously believed the highly racist beliefs he was spewing when he drafted the original document, but one of his descendants later tries to have it quietly deleted from from the Foundation's archives, due to how badly it reflects on his family's legacy.
    • Warts and All: In 1916, after the language of the document has been rendered unacceptable and highly offensive, a member of the later generations of the Cartwright family puts in a request for it, as well all copies and all records of it being destroyed, due to his family involvement with the racist politics expressed in the document having been rendered an invoked Old Shame. The O5 council refuses this requests, and basically tells Dr. Cartwright that they won't whitewash history just for his or his family's sake, and that it is better that they remember the organisation's ugly past than try to sweep it under the rug and pretend it never existed.
  • Series.Bones: In-Universe with Cam's role in an amateur schlock movie as '70s bloodsucking vampire with a Funny Afro, from "The Suit on the Set".
  • TabletopGame.Ars Magica: In-universe. Ranulf of Flambeau was a militant, angry young warrior, and chose a scary-looking dagger as his voting sigil. As he grew older and mellowed out, he found himself embarrassed with it.
  • Film.The Final Girls: Dramatic Irony: There's a good sense that Amanda's financial problems, as well as lack of success as an actress, is due to her treatment of her past as a horror icon as an Old Shame. She complains about being only recognized as a Scream Queen but it's the only thing she's done of any note and they DO recognize her. The movie also makes it clear that Camp Bloodbath, as a Captain Ersatz for Friday the 13th, has an active and vocal fandom that wants to see her. In-Universe example.
  • Funny.Persona 5 Strikers: Futaba brings up Haru's "Beauty Thief" alias during a briefing with Zenkichi. When Zenkichi asks what the whole "Beauty Thief" thing is about, Haru spouts, "My name is Beauty Thief!" on cue. Zenkichi looks exasperated and expresses disapproval that she would call herself that. The next morning, you can have an optional conversation with Haru where she expresses her embarrassment over her "Beauty Thief" nickname, saying that she's been going along with the name only because she looked up to that image and totally not because she thinks she's one. A second optional conversation has her saying that she is a college student and an adult, and therefore the name no longer applies to her.note  In-Universe pothole.
  • Narm.Sonic The Hedgehog: And let's not forget, said panel happens as a result of Sally accusing Sonic of being "so selfish." And why? For having to prioritise protecting the world and their loved ones from Robotnik as opposed to calling it all off to settle down with her, despite him taking the time to sincerely apologise and rationally explain why they can't get married yet beforehand. Notably, he only gets just as angry back when she hits him and insults his entire worldview and motivations; downplaying them to him only caring about "punching out Robotnik's lights". The whole setup — especially combined with her aforementioned bizarre faces and radical change in personality out of nowhere with little-to-no buildup — just makes Sally look incredibly unhinged and impossible to take seriously. It's no wonder why she hates being reminded of it In-Universe after her eventual Character Rerailment. In-Universe pothole.
  • Recap.Star Trek Enterprise S 04 E 19 Demons: In-Universe. Minister Samuels was a member of Terra Prime years ago, after his father was killed in a shuttle crash that he blamed on the Denobulan pilot. Archer doesn't expose him, but does use this intel as leverage to take control of the investigation.
    Samuels: I was very young when I joined Terra Prime.
    Archer: You were eighteen.
    Samuels: Didn't you make any questionable choices when you were that age, Captain? It was a stupid mistake. I was a fool. My father had died in a freighter accident and I blamed the pilot, who happened to be Denobulan. We all have our demons. I've exorcised mine.
    Archer: I don't care what you did when you were young, Minister. I need your help.
    Samuels: I underestimated you. I suppose I'm not the first person to make that mistake. You'll have your case file within the hour. In-Universe usage.

    ZCEs and context-less potholes (2/77) 
  • Finally, there was the "home run derby" era of the late '90s and early '00s, with players such as Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, and Barry Bonds at the forefront. Initially, this was seen as the end of baseball's A.A.E., with the sport rising to heights of popularity perhaps not seen in decades; millions of people were tuning in to watch superstar athletes race to shatter home-run records. However, things turned around quickly once it was revealed where this sudden surge in athleticism was coming from: steroid use so rampant that it triggered a Congressional investigation. Everyone in baseball, along with many fans, now treats that era as one of the most disgraceful episodes in baseball history due to the fact that many of its biggest stars were revealed to have been either doping or engaging in other forms of cheating (like Sammy Sosa's corked bat), with MLB officials turning a blind eye due to the fact that the sport was popular again. Pothole.
  • LetsPlay.Achievement Hunter Minecraft Series: A few of the less-well-thought-out Lets Plays have become this, especially the original Creeper Soccer and Twelve Towers (repeatedly referred to by Geoff and Gavin as the ugliest thing they've ever built). No context.

    Unclear (7/77) 
  • Trivia.Near Chris: How he views most of the videos he’s removed from his channel, and even how he views many of the videos currently on his channel. Mixture of correct and incorrect.
  • Trivia.Miliyah Kato: My Girl is suspiciously absent from both the album it would have logically appeared on and the latest compilation album. It's possible that she (or her agent) didn't want to include a cover on her albums, but it's not a terrible rendition of the song by any means and even Koda Kumi has released covers onto regular albums and compilations. Unfortunately, this may always remain a mystery. "Possible" example, a.k.a. speculation.
  • Trivia.Luke Combs: Early in his career, he appeared in the music video of another country artist who chose to festoon said video with the Confederate flag. In response, Combs took his name off the single and explicitly stated regret for appearing in it. Depends on if taking his name off means he wants you to forget about it.
  • Trivia.Nutbrown Pooper: Neo thinks some of the old videos are cringy when he gets older, especially Yoshi's Adventures, which leads to cancellation. Unclear on if cancellation means he wants it to be forgotten as written.
  • Fanfic.So What Colour Is Your Toothbrush: Exactly What It Says on the Tin: The 'totally not smut fanfics' book that two Old Shames were pulled from. None of the fics in it were actually explicit. Unclear on if this is In-Universe or not.
  • GoAnimate.Tropes Specific A To F: One video by African Vulture that was later taken down (presumably because of Old Shame) featured Caillou loudly announcing that "Steven Universe sucks" (with Steven and the Crystal Gems in earshot, no less). He is promptly booed by everyone nearby and Boris lays into Caillou over how he could possibly hate "the greatest show ever", leaving the now-grounded Caillou to leave in humiliation. Speculative pothole. Valid if true, but since we don't know it is listed as unclear.
  • OrphanedSeries.Webcomics (1): Shredded Moose was abandoned and taken offline after it ended. Many of the strips are still missing. Given the comic's rather negative reputation, most have assumed the creators considered it an Old Shame. Speculative example. Valid if true, but since it is speculation it is listed as unclear.

    Unclassifiable (1/77) 
  • Radio.Adventures In Odyssey: Take That Me: The rap song "Communicate" (from the pulled episode "Lights Out At Whit's End") gets this treatment in a scene from the 2015 episode "Out of the Woods". It's...meta?
    Detective Don Polehaus: "And the old cassette player?"
    Eugene Meltsner: "I unearthed it from Mr. Whittaker's archives. When I push the button..." <pushes it>
    Whit/Kids (on tape): "...Share the gospel before it's too late, and the best way to do it is communicate!"
    Detective Polehaus (overlapping): "You’ll wanna change that."
    Eugene: "Well, Perhaps so."


Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 31st 2022 at 10:32:58 AM

Macron's notes
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
prettycoolguy Since: Nov, 2010
#3: Jun 13th 2022 at 4:26:34 PM

Oh boy, I’ve been waiting for this one. Strap in, because I have some thoughts.

Old Shame always confused me because, until I saw the wick check for the first time, I thought the definition was “embarrassing old works a creator did were expressed as such and that they have now moved on from” and it made sense to me at the time. Even on the Creator Backlash page, when they compared it to this item, they said the distinction of Old Shame was that it’s the latter when “the work in question neither caught on nor has many redeeming qualities in the first place”.

But, looking at it now, that seems pretty subjective, isn’t it? If the whole purpose of Creator Backlash is that they expressed regret of their work, why should it matter how the work was perceived? The item is about their reaction to the work, so that shouldn’t be a factor. Of course, that’s not even the definition of the item, as the whole “making sure you forget it” seems to be a non-factor, which is concerning. I think there are three big moves that should be done:

  1. Move all “creator dislikes their work” misuse to Creator Backlash, which I think can be easily agreed on. The implied difference that it refers to an “unsuccessful” work is far too subjective and meaningless to make that much of a distinction. Heck, it’s still misused even if that distinction was the item’s definition. The description of Creator Backlash could also be modified slightly to clarify those kinds of examples are okay, even if they always were.

  2. I think Old Shame itself should become In-Universe Examples Only, thus that page becomes where we keep all the in-universe examples. I personally cannot think of a better name more indicative of the concept, and it’s not like we’ve done similar moves before for tropes such as Dude, Not Funny!. It may take a year or so for people to get the idea, but the name is just too good not to use. On the contrary, the name being too good to use is a major reason why the Creator Backlash misuse persisted for so long, as it is prone to what I call Catchier Name Syndrome (something that has woefully plagued Getting Crap Past the Radar since it’s inception). However, I still think it’s worthwhile to try, as long as a better name does not exist. Embarrassing Old Photo and I Was Young and Needed the Money can become subtropes, and some In-Universe examples might fit those better.

  3. For examples that are more akin to the actual intended definition, they should be moved to a new trivia item called Creator Suppression. This is because the creator being embarrassed enough by their work to take steps to make sure people can’t access it is an actual meaningful distinction with sometimes different implications than simply criticizing the work. This would also mean that the actual “making you forget about it” aspect would be made more concrete and specific, referring to instances where creators and companies pull or modify works from circulation, intentionally leaving it out of print, that sort of thing.

Edited by prettycoolguy on Jun 13th 2022 at 7:28:50 AM

themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#4: Jun 13th 2022 at 4:44:10 PM

Thanks for opening this Macron.

[up] makes good points. I think if we made Old Shame IUEO though it would still need a new name as it would likely still attract the same misuse it attracted before otherwise.

I love the Creator Suppression idea. That would definitely be a good concept IMO.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jun 13th 2022 at 7:46:50 AM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#5: Jun 13th 2022 at 5:11:37 PM

I've been waiting for this one. There is a clear difference between Old Shame and Creator Backlash, so they're definitely not duplicate tropes. However, it can be a bit difficult to really understand the differences. Too much trouble, really.[1]

What the trope descriptions currently tell us:

Old Shame:

  • The work is something that is considered a bad creation. Either because it was just too bad to be popular, or only a niche crowd ever liked it, or because it was fine when first created but the times have moved on and it's got problematic Values Dissonance now. Whatever the reason, the work is mostly not considered a good thing.
  • The chances are that this is a work the creator did before they became mainstream, or successful, or experienced. And it shows.
  • The creator also thinks the work is a bad creation, sometimes for the same reasons, sometimes for different reasons. Whatever the reason, they are ashamed of it, and wish it had never existed — this isn't hate, this is cringe/embarrassment/shame/humiliation.
  • If the existence of the work is raised, the creator is likely to want to avoid or change the subject.
  • There is unlikely to be much friction between creators and fans over this — there's general consensus that this isn't a good creation.

Creator Backlash:

  • The work must be popular; it's something that is loved by fans.
  • The same work must be hated by the Creator. Not simply disliked. Hated. They are their own Hatedom.
  • If the existence of the work is raised, the creator is likely to rant about how terrible they think it is.
  • The discrepancy between the fans' love for the work and the Creator's hatred for the work can generate friction between the creator and fans.

So, the key differences are:

  • Old Shame: A creator is embarrassed/ashamed/humiliated to be associated with a work that is generally considered to be either very bad or very inappropriate for modern sensibilities, and would prefer to avoid discussing it ever existed.
  • Creator Backlash: The creator loathes a work the fans love, and their willingness to tell the entire world exactly how much they hate it, helps generate friction between the creator and fans.

[1] The problem with both tropes as they currently stand is that the ability to define what counts as "popular with fans" (required for Creator Backlash) and "unpopular with fans" (required for Old Shame) is impossible to objectively grade without some kind of external metric (which most works will be too niche to have). On the other hand, it's much easier to identify authors who are ashamed of a work (Old Shame) or who hate a work (Creator Backlash) because we usually have interviews or public statements of some kind to give us that kind of information. That suggests that whether the fans like or dislike the work should be dropped (for not being measurable) and the focus should be on how the creator feels. That raises the question of whether separating shame from hate is meaningful, and I don't think it is. That suggests the best option is a merge, dropping the fan feeling element, and focussing on creator feelings (which can range from shame to hate).[2]

I disagree with the Creator Suppression name, however, as creators who hate their works will often wax lyrical about how much they hate it, which can put them at odds with fans who might like the work (as Creator Backlash currently mentions). Meanwhile, creators who are ashamed of a work, will seek to avoid it and encourage others to not discuss it (as Old Shame mentions). So, if we went a Creator Suppression route, we'd have to be clear that this "suppression" may manifest in dramatically different ways depending on the creator and the reason why they don't want people to consume it. "Suppression" is intuitive for the Old Shame angle, but far less intuitive for the Creator Backlash angle.

What about Creator Rejection?

The other problem with merging Old Shame and Creator Backlash is that Creator Backlash is itself being misused for any time a creator admits they've made a mistake in the work, or could done something differently or better, or on reflection wish they had or hadn't written something in the work. That's just being able to take criticism, or agreeing with criticism, or being able to critique your own work. It's got nothing to do with Creator Backlash, but I've seen it used this way a lot.

So, if a merge is going to be discussed, the following needs to be addressed:

  • Given that the two tropes are not duplicates, what would a merged trope description actually be?[2]
  • Given that Creator Backlash has its own misuse issues going on, that would also need to be identified before any merge could be agreed.

In short, if you want to do a merge of the two tropes, I'd advise a wick check for Creator Backlash as well before deciding what to do about Old Shame.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jun 13th 2022 at 5:33:16 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#6: Jun 13th 2022 at 5:24:31 PM

I think it's obvious what a merged trope would be. Just remove the popularity part entirely and focus on the creator's dislike of their past work. Boom. Done.

Like, sure, they describe different things but the only real difference is in how much fans like the work, which feels very arbitrary. There's no reason why those differences would actually matter in the long run if we merge them.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jun 13th 2022 at 8:25:29 AM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
MatthewWayne The Man Outside Reality from TVA Headquarters Since: Oct, 2014
The Man Outside Reality
#7: Jun 13th 2022 at 7:48:26 PM

Yeah, I'm in the merge camp. There's stuff that separates Old Shame from Creator Backlash, but I don't think that there's enough to justify them being different from one another.

I also think that Creator Backlash should be looked into, as I've also noticed it misused in the way [up][up] mentioned as well, as well as examples that just have creators complaining about their work being released in a different format because of COVID.

In regards to making Old Shame IUEO...I think that would definitely be a good idea as well. I've seen a lot of people attempt to use Once Done, Never Forgotten as a substitute for Old Shame in-universe, but that trope is specifically about other characters bringing something up that they want to forget. Old Shame by itself doesn't necessarily require other characters to point it out, right?

Trust no one.
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#8: Jun 13th 2022 at 10:08:13 PM

I'm not sure there's much a point to worrying about Creator Backlash, maybe we can give it it's own wick check or something, but if we merge the two into a new trope anyway then it's like... problem solved?

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#9: Jun 13th 2022 at 11:18:00 PM

Make IUEO and move examples to Creator Backlash. Not sure about new names and descriptions yet.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#10: Jun 14th 2022 at 12:15:35 AM

I'm in favor of merging with Creator Backlash, because there isn't much of a difference other than how popular the work is.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
mightymewtron Angry babby from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#11: Jun 14th 2022 at 12:18:47 AM

Merge. I think the popularity angle is better covered by something like Magnum Opus Dissonance. Trivia without audience reaction makes it easier to record.

I do think we can look into the scope of whether they regret the entire work or just certain elements of it though.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#12: Jun 14th 2022 at 4:03:29 AM

It seems Creator Backlash was originally proposed in YKTTW as "Old Shame but popular", but in my reading of the description (and image and quote) seems to have evolved into being about a backlash against the popularity and nature thereof, not necessarily against the actual content. That would suggest that if anything, it's Old Shame that should take the lion's share of the grey-area examples if we keep them separate; a Creator Backlash wouldn't necessarily have a problem with the work if it weren't so gosh darn popular, particularly with the Misaimed Fandom or if its popularity didn't force the creator to rehash it or affect how (and whether) people view their other works. In short, a Creator Backlash exists against a work because it's popular, whereas an Old Shame is a judgment against the work itself.

Where this gets chintzy is if there's such a thing as a popular work that becomes an Old Shame in practice. If a creator says they regret creating a given work, how sure are we that this regret isn't at least partially directed at how popular it was or how it was received? Should we focus on the "old" part of the name, where a work the creator disowns when it's still close to the height of its popularity is more likely to be Backlash while one disowned more in retrospect can be more easily classified as Shame? But does that mean the exact same attitude expressed by a creator towards a work can be classified under a different entry based on when it's expressed? You might be able to identify cases where the cause of the backlash is something completely orthogonal to its popularity, such as Values Dissonance when the work was never perceived as outright promoting the values in question, but that still leaves a pretty large body of cases where the degree to which the distinction is truly meaningful or identifiable is an open question.

It does suggest, though, that Creator Backlash wouldn't be a great name for a merged trope. A backlash exists against something, and a creator can come to consider something an Old Shame without anything in particular provoking it, just the evolution of their thoughts over time. Creator Regret or Creator Rejection might work better.

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#13: Jun 14th 2022 at 5:20:08 AM

I'd prefer Creator Rejection over Creator Regret if we merge Creator Backlash and Old Shame under a new name.

I guess merging under a new name would be kind of like what happened with Space Does Not Work That Way and Artistic License - Astronomy being merged into Artistic License – Space.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 14th 2022 at 7:20:50 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
RustBeard Since: Sep, 2016
#14: Jun 14th 2022 at 10:45:09 AM

I'm fine with using Creator Backlash as a name if we merge the two.

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#15: Jun 14th 2022 at 2:37:04 PM

[up]I'm fine with it as well. I meant to say that if we used a new name, I'd prefer Creator Rejection over Creator Regret, but I don't see anything wrong with the name Creator Backlash as a name for the merged trope.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 14th 2022 at 4:37:23 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
wingedcatgirl I'm helping! from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
I'm helping!
#16: Jun 14th 2022 at 8:22:24 PM

Merging, clarifying the definition, possibly splitting/creating an actual "creator publicly dislikes a particular aspect of their work (without necessarily hating the thing overall)" trivia item, these all seem like things worth doing.

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
harryhenry It's either real or it's a dream Since: Jan, 2012
It's either real or it's a dream
#17: Jun 15th 2022 at 7:13:24 PM

As someone who previously made a thread about this problem before, I'm all for merging Creator Backlash and Old Shame: There's been so much overlap that it doesn't make sense to keep them as separate tropes. There's also another great reason to take out Audience Reaction as a factor: That automatically pushes it into YMMV, and if it's gonna be Trivia it has to be focused on the creator themselves.

I do think there's a trope for that Creator Suppression name, though I think its page would have to be made from scratch.

Edited by harryhenry on Jun 15th 2022 at 7:16:42 AM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#18: Jun 15th 2022 at 8:15:06 PM

Tomorrow I'm considering running a crowner for the following, unless I missed anything:

  • Merge Old Shame with Creator Backlash (the name of the merged page would be decided with another crowner).
  • Make Old Shame IUEO.
  • Rename Old Shame without merging with Creator Backlash. Not mutually exclusive with making it IUEO; renaming would be evaluated separately if it's merged with Creator Backlash or if in-universe examples are split off.
  • Split off in-universe examples of Old Shame. If Old Shame is merged with Creator Backlash, out-of-universe examples will be moved to the merged page. A crowner would be used to decide the name; using the name Old Shame for in-universe examples while moving out-of-universe examples to a new name (or merging out-of-universe examples with Creator Backlash) is possible.

I don't think I missed anything, and I tried to account for the idea of using the name Old Shame for in-universe examples and moving out-of-universe examples elsewhere (including if Old Shame is merged with Creator Backlash). I'm currently sick, so apologies if the wording is kind of awkward for the last option; I tried to make it as clear as possible even if making it brief wasn't easy.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 15th 2022 at 10:17:18 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#19: Jun 15th 2022 at 10:22:03 PM

Hooked a crowner with what I posted. Apologies for the long-windedness; I wanted to make sure the wording wasn't ambiguous.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
m-95 Har har har from my place of residence Since: Jun, 2021 Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Har har har
#20: Jun 16th 2022 at 11:51:37 AM

Personally I'm on team merge (whether or not the work is popular feels not needed). If the two are merged I think Old Shame should be the name of the merged trope.

Also, a someone who doesn't usually kick around on TRS, how would you go about picking which examples go into a merged trope page? I ask this because both Old Shame and Creator Backlash have an absolute ton of examples listed in the subpages.

Please visit the "AITA" forum game
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#21: Jun 16th 2022 at 11:55:54 AM

Together they also give 10k wicks.

I guess it's going to be a very long wick moving.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
mightymewtron Angry babby from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#22: Jun 16th 2022 at 12:07:33 PM

I have no real problem with Creator Backlash's name and it's more media specific than Old Shame, which can apply to things that regret besides works.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Yindee Just stoic wisdom. from New England Since: Jul, 2016
Just stoic wisdom.
#23: Jun 16th 2022 at 12:42:28 PM

[up] If Old Shame becomes in-universe, would it then be possible/likely that the definition is expanded to "anything a character's done in the past they they're actively embarrassed/regretful about"?

Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#24: Jun 16th 2022 at 1:08:04 PM

With 0:13 ratio, I'd rather not entrtain the expansion idea and consider thinking about the in-universe split-off before the draft becomes required.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Yindee Just stoic wisdom. from New England Since: Jul, 2016
Just stoic wisdom.
#25: Jun 16th 2022 at 1:36:49 PM

Ah fair makes sense, I definitely meant in addition to the out-of-universe being merged because the combo decision is the frontrunner option. Getting way to ahead of myself here, certainly.

Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail

Trope Repair Shop: Old Shame
25th Jun '22 4:38:09 AM

Crown Description:

Old Shame's current defintion is being merged with Creator Backlash, but in-universe examples are staying under the name Old Shame. Should the new in-universe trope be expanded to cover a character being ashamed of anything they did in the past (a Missing Supertrope for things like I Was Young And Needed The Money and Once Done Never Forgotten), rather than just works they've created?

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