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Needs Help: Never A Self Made Woman

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Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#26: Apr 27th 2015 at 8:57:49 AM

When there's only one The Chick, the imbalance can be seen when comparing her to the male characters.

And the word "self-made" is very confusing, I agree. In fact, this trope is supposed to be about when notable women who are introduced in a work are the notable male characters' relatives or lovers. The word "self-made" can make one think it's about "leeching off" someone, as you noted, while it's not about that at all.

Betty (why did I call her Betsy? wtf) Ross was a scientist in the movie, but I was actually talking about the original comic. There she's originally just a daughter of Thunderbolt Ross who falls in love with Bruce Banner.

Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#27: Apr 28th 2015 at 9:04:51 PM

WICK CHECK!

I stand corrected. The wick check showed there's a lot of misuse of this trope. Some of the misuse are "aversions" and "inversions", but there are other kinds of misuse as well. Also, tropers seem undecided whether this trope applies to the gender balance in a work in general, or a specific female character regardless of context. I think this all stems from the fact that Never a Self-Made Woman is actually several different tropes conflated into one. I'll explain my thoughts on that in the end of the post.

I've checked all wicks for Never a Self-Made Woman and its redirect Female Success is Family, except locked pages, indexes etc.

For simplicity, I've tagged different uses of this trope in the following way:

  • Current use: Most notable women in a work have male relatives/lovers in their fields.
  • One character-specific: A specific woman has a male relative/lover in her field.
  • Sexist stereotype: "You're a woman, you're only here because of your male relative/lover!" Invoked in-universe.
  • Misuse: Misuse.
  • ZCE: ZCE.

Female Success is Family:

  • Black Sails: One character-specific. Either invoked, or played straight.
  • Tropes Ato K: Misuse. Many female characters become mothers late in the plot.

Never a Self-Made Woman:

Notable mentions:

As a result of my investigation, I've come to think Never a Self-Made Woman should be split into several tropes. These meanings are already there, sometimes as different uses or misuse. Here's what tropes I think could be split off it:

  • Only Related Women Allowed. Aka Current use. Aggregate trope. A tendency (especially in older works) that all or most notable female characters that are introduced to a mainly male cast, will be relatives or lovers to the established male characters. Only works with a mainly male cast that contains one or several women.
  • One character-specific seems to actually be several different tropes:
  • Downplayed In Favor Of Male Relative Or Lover: Aka Sexist stereotype. In-universe. A woman's talents and achievements are downplayed or unnoticed in favor of her male relative/lover. Or someone says she's only in this position because she has a male relative/lover. Veers dangerously close to Behind Every Great Man.
  • Other: Sleeping Their Way to the Top: Character uses sexual or romantic relationships with important people to further their career. Gender neutral. Can also be invoked in-universe, e.g. as a way of slander.

edited 28th Apr '15 9:15:15 PM by Rjinswand

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#28: Apr 28th 2015 at 9:33:55 PM

Actually those Dynasty Warriors and Samurai Warriors wicks are wrong, the source era and novel are that true, But the games themselves try to branch out with Lianshi, Bao Sanniang, Wang Yuanji, Wang Yi, Cai Wenji and others for Dynasty Warriors and even more so with Strikeforce. In many cases they really dig and change things, they themselves are not related to anyone when introduced at all.

Lianshi is one of princess Sun Shangxiang's armed guards when introduced but later becomes Empress.

Cai Wenji is a songstress kidnapped by a group of nomads then rescued by Cao Cao. And while her father appears in some side missions she isn't introduced as one and she isn't anyone's girlfriend or anything like that.

Wang Yi is a woman trying to go all The Princess Bride on Ma Chao for him killing her kids in his rebellion, completely consumed by it but no mention of those kids names or her husband's nor are they seen.

Bao Sanniang is a free spirit who kicks ass, she ends up being infatuated with Guan Suo after he is the only one who does not have a problem with her fighting. They dug for this one she is a completely fictional character from a 500 year old fan fiction about Guan Suo.

Samurai Warriors has Okuni, Kunochi, Ii Naotora, Koshosho, Tachibana Ginchiyo.

Edit: still disagree on the 1 girl thing though, that would make Romeo And Juliet it which I would disagree with.

edited 28th Apr '15 10:11:34 PM by Memers

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#29: Apr 28th 2015 at 11:33:53 PM

I think most aversions could be ported over to Self-Made Man without too much difficulty (maybe with a line about Never a Self-Made Woman, but little more). Not sure about inversions; those probably shouldn't stay.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#30: Apr 29th 2015 at 5:22:50 AM

I think this all stems from the fact that Never a Self-Made Woman is actually several different tropes conflated into one.
I agree the usage is several tropes conflated into one. I suggest a gender-neutral rename, and turning the page into an index of characters who are important to their career or the story due to their relative/LI. The current definition may disappear if we keep examining the various pieces of the tropes present in the examples.

Edit: still disagree on the 1 girl thing though, that would make Romeo and Juliet it which I would disagree with.
I don't understand this, can you clarify?

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#31: Apr 29th 2015 at 5:41:18 AM

In a small cast having 1 woman who is related another is not a trope IMO and not this trope I don't think. There could be any number of reasons why that one character is introduced like that and most of them are not sexist, when you get into say 5 out of 5 then things are a bit more telling.

edited 29th Apr '15 5:43:04 AM by Memers

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#32: Apr 29th 2015 at 6:06:07 AM

Juliet is important to the plot by being the daughter of Lord Capulet. To be fair, this is a gender-neutral example, since Romeo is also important to the plot only because he is the son of Lord Montegue.

If either one did not represent the next generation of Hatfields And Mc Coys, there wouldn't be a conflict. The rivalry of their fathers causes the conflict in this work.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#33: Apr 29th 2015 at 7:59:49 AM

Yes, but IMO that does not make it nearly the 'Never a Self-Made Woman' definition put forward by Rjinswand because

1) it is important to the plot. 2) she is really it in the story, to really be this trope by the definition that Rjinswand has been using it really needs to be more than one girl in the plot and all of them need to be that as I said in my previous post.

The trope definition is basically aggregate bashing works, there needs to be at least some evidence saying that in work and numbers as well as plot relevance do that.

edited 29th Apr '15 8:13:30 AM by Memers

Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#34: Apr 29th 2015 at 8:11:40 PM

@Memers: Thank for the clarification about Dynasty Warriors and Samurai Warriors!

Edit: still disagree on the 1 girl thing though, that would make Romeo And Juliet it which I would disagree with.
I get what you mean. But what do you think about the splits I proposed at the end of my post? I don't think any of the one-person-specific tropes I proposed encompass Romeo And Juliet.

@Discar: I agree. They don't even need to be ported anywhere, since they're wicks. We just have to list them under Self-Made Man on the works' example lists, is all.

@crazysamaritan:

I suggest a gender-neutral rename, and turning the page into an index of characters who are important to their career or the story due to their relative/LI.
So you think the Only Related Women Allowed definition should be cut? I'm not sure about that. I think it's a thing, it's just that a lot of other tropes have been lumped into it during this trope's lifetime.

As for the trope you're proposing, I think it could be a Missing Supertrope to most of the trope splits I've proposed in my post.

@Memers:

In a small cast having 1 woman who is related another is not a trope IMO and not this trope I don't think. There could be any number of reasons why that one character is introduced like that and most of them are not sexist, when you get into say 5 out of 5 then things are a bit more telling.
It doesn't have to be sexist. It's just what happens often. It's an aggregate trope, they often work that way. E.g. the creator doesn't have to be racist to have Black Guy Dies First happen in their work.

@Memers:

Yes, but IMO that does not make it nearly the 'Never a Self-Made Woman' definition put forward by Rjinswand because

1) it is important to the plot. 2) she is really it in the story, to really be this trope by the definition that Rjinswand has been using it really needs to be more than one girl in the plot and all of them need to be that as I said in my previous post.

Not quite, a work can have 1 notable woman and still apply. Juliet doesn't fit because most notable men are also introduced as being related to other people. As has been said, that's the main point of Romeo And Juliet. A "one-woman example" only fits if she's introduced as related, while men aren't.

The trope definition is basically aggregate bashing works
Do you mean the definition I proposed? I disagree! That's exactly what I don't want this trope to be. I'd be thankful for any suggestions how to make the definition clear and concise enough so that it won't attract any bashing or complaining.

there needs to be at least some evidence saying that in work and numbers as well as plot relevance do that.
I think the in-universe discrimination is covered by the Downplayed In Favor Of Male Relative Or Lover split I proposed.

edited 29th Apr '15 8:12:09 PM by Rjinswand

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#35: Apr 30th 2015 at 7:36:59 AM

So you think the Only Related Women Allowed definition should be cut?
No, I'm saying that by breaking the idea up into smaller concepts, we might stop seeing that idea. A supertrope only applies if the subtropes always apply.

Romeo and Juliet, for example, have a male and female example of Notable Daddys Daughter.

Memers; is Romeo and Juliet supposed to be a counterexample to my post in #10? Because I haven't said Only Related Women Allowed has anything to do with their relationship to the plot. Juliet wouldn't apply to that because she isn't in a career.

edited 30th Apr '15 7:42:29 AM by crazysamaritan

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#36: Apr 30th 2015 at 7:44:40 AM

[up]Sorry, I guess I wasn't really clear with my explanation.

I don't think all the splits I proposed are actually sister tropes or subtropes. Some may be related, some may not. So, e.g., Only Related Women Allowed isn't really a supertrope to Notable Daddys Daughter.

Notable Daddys Daughter, I think it should be just an example-less index for all "X's Daughter" tropes, and nothing more.

As for Romeo And Juliet, I don't think it's an example of any of the tropes I proposed. In this play, all characters' relations are important. It could actually be an example of yet another trope: for settings where most characters are notable due to their relations: e.g. Romeo And Juliet, Game Of Thrones, Silmarillion, etc.

I think I'll try making a Sandbox writeup for the splits I proposed, maybe it'll be more clear.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#37: May 1st 2015 at 7:46:50 AM

I don't think all the splits I proposed are actually sister tropes or subtropes. Some may be related, some may not. So, e.g., Only Related Women Allowed isn't really a supertrope to Notable Daddys Daughter.
This is why I think the meaning for Only Related Women Allowed might disappear.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#38: May 8th 2015 at 11:37:34 AM

[up]Ah, I think I see what you mean. I guess that depends on the examples — how many would Only Related Women Allowed get? The only way I see to prove/disprove it is to try splitting off all the other meanings, and see what's left.

I can start YKTTW'ing the splits I proposed in the end of post #27, if everyone's okay with it. Thoughts?

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#39: May 24th 2015 at 11:48:34 AM

Notable Daddys Daughter: A Missing Supertrope to The Chief's Daughter, The President's Daughter, The General's Daughter, Daddy's Little Villain, Mad Scientist's Beautiful Daughter. Basically, for characters who are mainly identified through being someone's daughter. Most likely, an example-less index page.
Also related to Daddy's Girl, where dear old dad spoils his little girl rotten (which may or may not lead to nepotism if he works in a position of authority and the girl becomes a new employee/member).

edited 24th May '15 11:53:19 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#40: Sep 13th 2015 at 7:58:09 AM

NEWS UPDATE

1. Demoted to Satellite Love Interest launched.

2. Five new splits, based on NASMW misuse, YKTTW'd:

Immediate plans:

1. To tweak NASMW's description and weed its example list, to account for the creation of Demoted to Satellite Love Interest.

edited 13th Sep '15 7:58:34 AM by Rjinswand

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#41: Sep 13th 2015 at 8:20:10 AM

Most of those splits seem decent, other than the first one (Man's Job Means Male Relatives). Those examples have a lot of subversions, non-straight examples, or cherry picks from a series. All of those speak against the alleged pattern.

There's also that a traditionally male job has mainly men working in it, and the idea of inheriting a job from a parent isn't exactly unusual either. Those two add up to that any character, male or female, will likely inherit that job from a male relative. But apparently only one of those is a pattern that qualifies for a trope.

What gives?

Check out my fanfiction!
Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#42: Sep 13th 2015 at 8:42:54 AM

[up]I'd appreciate if you comment on the splits in their YKTTW threads, that way we won't clutter up this thread with the off-topic discussion.

Subversions are still examples. As for poor quality examples or cherry picks, as I pointed out in the note at the top of the YKTTW, those examples were mostly taken from NASMW misuse, so they might be bad. I'd be grateful if you explained where they're wrong or suggested how to correct them.

Your point about inheriting the job is already kind of mentioned in the description — though, I guess, I can expand on that a bit.

But apparently only one of those is a pattern that qualifies for a trope.
Only some characters inherit a job from their parents or other relatives. Lots and lots of characters are introduced without any mention of having relatives in the field.

Let's continue this discussion in the YKTTW.

edited 13th Sep '15 8:43:35 AM by Rjinswand

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#43: Sep 13th 2015 at 9:03:05 AM

I just usually forget to check up on stuff I comment on in YKTTW, since I otherwise avoid it.

[down]I usually forget that too.

edited 13th Sep '15 12:33:50 PM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#44: Sep 13th 2015 at 12:08:19 PM

You could just check the "flag as favorite" button of specific YKTTW drafts and then click "show flags only" so that only those with the "favorite" flags show up. So you avoid the rest of the drafts and still keep up tabs on drafts that were created due to TRS-backed splits and the like.

edited 13th Sep '15 12:08:58 PM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Rjinswand Since: Apr, 2015
#45: Sep 27th 2015 at 8:41:58 AM

News update: Sleeping Their Way to the Top launched!

Other NASMW-misuse-based splits currently in YKTTW:

Feel free to participate!

edited 27th Sep '15 8:42:43 AM by Rjinswand

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#46: Jan 1st 2016 at 1:29:15 PM

Locking as part of New Years Purge.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
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