Needs Help (New Crowner 11 April 2021): Moral Event Horizon

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love

Big Catch, Sparkle Edition

#1: Sep 22nd 2020 at 10:35:46 PM

Alright, now that a few threads have closed, I feel more comfortable making this one.

Moral Event Horizon. It's been under discussion recently, discussion that culminated in us realizing that nobody actually understands what it is or how we should be using it. I decided to put this issue to the test and run a Wick Check, which you can see by clicking or down below.

Wicks checked: 110

Irredeemable In-Universe / About the act: 58/110 (~52%) / Redeemable In-Universe: 8/110 (~8%) / Not A Villain: 7/110 (~6%) / ZCE/Murky/Misc/Etc: 37/110 (~34%)

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Irredeemable in-universe, more about the act

AxCrazy.Animated Films: "Captain DuBois from Madagascar 3: Europe's Most Wanted. She wants to have Alex's head on the wall so much that, when Alex, Gloria, Marty and Melman are tranquilized by her men, she tries to use a saw to cut Alex's head off. She doesn't stop there. Even after Alex is put back in captivity in the zoo, DuBois tries to use a poison dart to kill him. Thank goodness Gia shows up with the circus animals to save him in the nick of time."
DeathOfAChild.Video Games: "In Final Fantasy VI, Kefka wipes out the kingdom of Doma via poison. One of the main character's family is in Doma, and as he rushes in to warn about the poison, he discovers his wife dead, and as he opens the door, the corpse of his son falls out of the bed. And that was the moment where Kefka lost his charm." An in-example pothole, but explicitly about the moment.
Irony.Other: "In the old Star Wars: Tales of the Jedi comics, one of the main characters falls to the Dark Side and eventually kills his helpless brother in a fit of rage. The irony is that, normally, such an act would be a character's Moral Event Horizon, would have sealed his fate as a Dark Sider forever. That's how it's always played in Star Wars. Instead, performing the irredeemable act of evil prompted him to turn away from the Dark Side and seek redemption." Discussing how a moment didn't lead the character to be irredeemable like is commonly depicted in the series.
It's Personal: "After injuring and potentially killing Naruto's toad allies, his stabbing Hinata after she told Naruto she loved him is enough to force Naruto into his six-tailed, and then his eight-tailed, states."
NightmareFuel.Jam: "Lucy Tiseman. A woman who is so desperately lonely that she begins deliberately hurting people to give herself opportunities to "befriend" them. She crosses the Moral Event Horizon when she lies to a woman that her son has died; the woman's sobs are pretty heartbreaking and it's all so this weirdo can give her "sympathy". Seems focused on the act.
PlayingWith.The Complainer Is Always Wrong: "Alice, Bob, and Carol all prefer mint and milk chocolate chip ice cream — while Dennis prefers mint and dark chocolate chip ice cream. The others try to make Dennis feel as if he committed the worst act of blasphemy." A pothole to MEH for a theoretical example, so no audience.
PlayingWith.Rejected Apology: "** Bob's actions, such as raping Alice or killing her family, were really that bad. A verbal apology will not cover anything." A pothole to MEH for a hypothetical scenario, entirely in-universe.
PlayingWith.Undead Tax Exemption: "Bob has been attempting to My Grandson, Myself for several generations to duck suspicion. However the fact said 'grandson' was never born causes it to fall apart. He later flees, adopts a new identity and doesn't have any problems with it. Alice does the same thing but adopts a child who looks similar to her and kills them repeatably once they get to an age she can pass as." A pothole to MEH for a hypothetical character, meaning it's entirely about the action- there's no audience here.
RoaringRampageOfRevenge.Video Games: "Argath has a less subtle version that crosses the Moral Event Horizon. After being resurrected by the Lucavi, he loudly declares to Ramza that he's going to kill all of the lower class, presumably in part to get back at Delita for killing him."
Roleplay.Skyrates Roleplay: "Villainous types are usually tolerated as long as they behave themselves/don't brag about what they've done/aren't beyond the Moral Event Horizon yet, and it's where a lot of casual interaction takes place." Wick talking about the actual event as it if could occur in-universe.
ScrewThisImOuttaHere.Comic Books: "Even though they'd been servants of the Zombie Priest for decades due to their curses, the elder Grave and his two sons believed a line had been crossed when the Zombie Priest turned a pregnant zombie into Mother Corpse." Potholed under "a line had been crossed", making it entirely in-universe.
Seeks Another's Resurrection: "The strength of their conviction may make them a Determinator or lead them to cross the Moral Event Horizon, especially if the author believes in Immortality Immorality." More about the act itself and the canon surrounding it.
Series.Suits: "A woman sues a publishing company that is a client of the law firm alleging that one of their editors stole a book idea that she had. Mike believes her and helps her get a fair settlement. The woman then uses the information that Mike gave her to blackmail the publisher into getting full credit for the book." A pothole on a main work page, but still about the act.
TearJerker.World Of Mana: "In fact, pretty much every Mana game is like this, with less-than-happy endings, villains who pretty much spend their entire lives across the Moral Event Horizon, and enough Heroic Sacrifices that even the heroes sometimes wonder if there's enough left to fight for." The way this is written, it sounds pretty definite that the villains definitely crossed the MEH.
TearJerker.Michael Vey: "If Hunt for Jade Dragon didn't make you want Hatch's blood, I don't know what will. Thanks to Tara's illusion creating abilities, she has Hatch take the form of Michael's father, claiming that he was Faking the Dead and that Hatch was only pretending to be evil to lower Chairman Schema's guard. Because the illusion was so real, he was actually fooled into telling Hatch the location of the resistance's hideout. Things get worse when at the end of the book, he learns that the hideout was attacked and that there are no known survivors. Michael has a Heroic BSoD when he finds out that he may have cause the deaths of his and Taylor's mother and Ostin's parents." First-Person Writing aside...this is all about the action.
TriangRelationships.Type Seven: "After the race, Erol becomes so angry at losing both the big race and Keira, that he tries to run over Jak, but ends up crashing into several barrels of Dark Eco." Potholed in a random main-wiki example, so likely in-universe.
Trivia.The Night Gwen Stacy Died: "one of the early fan theories about this story was that its main purpose was to kill off the Green Goblin for good because the situation where he knew the secret of Spider-Man's identity was too dangerous to be allowed to continue. This, according to the theory, would have required a crime so heinous that readers would accept Norman Osborn's death as permanent and would not clamor for his return." A theoretical action, so it can only be about the act.
UnexpectedlyDarkEpisode.Western Animation: "Roger-centric episodes are darker than usual (to the point of being downright creepy), but one that deserves special mention is "Love, American Dad Style", where you could say Roger finally crosses the Moral Event Horizon (if he hasn't already) by developing an extreme obsession with Hayley, and reacting badly when she rejects him. He shoots her, ties her to a mattress in an ice factory, and tries to rip off her skin and wear it over himself to be "closer" to her. Jeff shows up in the nick of time, but things still end badly, since Roger decides to wear Jeff's skin instead, leaving him in a tub full of ice." Wick in mainspace; seems to be about the act, as from what I can gather, Roger is actually pretty evil in-universe.
VisualNovel.Buried Stars: "Downplayed with the third victim, Seil, who worked for Seungyeon and therefore was partially responsible for Gyu-hyuk's mother's suicide as well. Unlike the others, though, he wasn't doing anything malicious in the present, and Gyu-hyuk acknowledges his murder of Seil as something of an in-universe Moral Event Horizon, as it's the only one that was deliberate and not a retaliation in the heat of the moment." In-Universe, character believes this act made him irredeemable.
Webcomic.The Wotch: "Miranda treads perilously close to the Moral Event Horizon when she genderbends Ivan and indirectly does the same to two of his friends for trying to tell the truth about The Wotch, plus altering reality so no one except them remembers they were ever their original sexes." Mainspace example so it's about the act.
WhatAnIdiot.Big City Greens: "Chip tries to kill the Greens, luckily Officer Keys shows up to stop him."
WMG.Fringe: "Walternate will be the last big hold-out, and decide that the destruction of existence is better than the two worlds coming together, pushing him over the Moral Event Horizon and into truly insane villainy." A wick in a WMG, meaning that the MEH here is canon to the theory, so it's in-universe.
WMG.Speed Grapher: "In the end, Artlier/Suitengu/Kimimaro finishes what he started, and bankrupts Japan for good, hopefully destroying the conspiracy for real this time. And all it took was him ruining billions of innocent lives three times. Way to go, so-called hero." A pothole in a WMG, meaning this is only canon to the theory, as it's based around the character in question having had multiple lives as characters in other works. Thus, it's in-universe.
Wrestling.Norman Smiley: "Murdered Pepe on Live TV. Of course, Pepe was a stick horse, but still..." Yes, this is an MEH example on a main page. That means it's about the action. It's supposed to be seen as objective.
YMMV.Alpha And Omega:
- King crosses this when he has Runt abducted to draw out the packs' Alphas and makes its very clear that he intends to kill Runt when he's no longer useful.
- The head wolf of Daria's pack crosses this when he attempts to murder Daria as a pup due to perceiving her as useless because of her blindness. It gets worse when he murders her mother for defending Daria, because it went against "pack rules". And then he tries to kill Daria again when she returns years later.
YMMV.Bulletstorm: "Sarrano plows right through it time and time again. The first time, it's when he orders Gray and Co. to assassinate Trishka's father. Hell, he's crossed it long before then. Trishka's father was just a reporter doing an exposé on Serrano's corruption, and he compiled a list of every hit Dead Echo had carried out. The targets were all innocent people. Serrano had been using Dead Echo to do that (and lying about the targets, so Dead Echo didn't even know) long before then." Ignoring that the character apparently keeps crossing the MEH, which isn't possible by any definition, this is about in-universe actions.
YMMV.Chaos AU: "Root crosses it in Burning Down when she spreads an incredibly powerful hallucinogen (which seems to make people hallucinate with their most striking memories) in New York City, all within an energy drink she gives away or sells cheap, to attempt to learn about the Machine and kidnap Finch again. More than eighteen people end up dead, and the emergency services are run ragged because of the chaos provoked by Root's plan. And, also, as an indirect consequence, Scotty needs to get out of society for a few weeks."
YMMV.Christopher Robin:
- Giles Winslow Jr. crosses it when it's revealed that he spent the weekend golfing instead of helping Christopher Robin work out the cost cutting at the company. It's here that it's revealed that the whole 'swimmer or sinker' spiel he gave to Christopher was nothing more than a manipulation tactic Winslow spun just to get someone else to do his work for him, all the while knowing full well that his own job security was almost assured because his father Winslow Sr. is the company founder. Quite mild compared to what you'd normally expect for this trope, but in the context of the franchise, that cemented Winslow's status as a villain.
- Christopher Robin himself believes he crossed it at some point during World War II, and even confesses as much to Pooh. Being forced to kill countless of your fellow humans can do that to you. More pointedly, he had lost a lot of innocence he will never truly be able to regain in full.
YMMV.Dear Children: " Aaron crossed this when he pushed Devin into the lake because he found out Devin was gay and leaving him when Devin thought he was going to drown.Then he outed Devin to the whole school, causing him to get bullied."
YMMV.Deja Vu No Jutsu: "Unkai Kurama crosses this when he kills Natsumi's Leopard summon, Kenta and threatens to kill Natsumi's unborn child if she doesn't comply. He planned on breaking her mind to force her to give up her ties with the Nara and become a Kurama breeding slave. This turns out to have actually happened to Natsumi's counterpart in the canon universe."
YMMV.Evil Con Carne: "Cod Commando went beyond the pale when it was revealed that he's the reason Hector is reduced to a Brain in a Jar in the first place.
YMMV.Fate Cero: "Kiritsugu crosses the line when he blows up the hotel Kayneth and Lancer are staying in with all the hotel guests still inside! (Unlike canon, where he actually evacuated all the guests first)."
YMMV.Fevre Dream: "The point at which it is confirmed that Julian is pure evil: when he kills a baby just to prove a point."
YMMV.Glass 2019: " The Ancient Conspiracy crosses it at the same time it reveals itself; by cold-bloodedly drowning the Overseer even though he's never done anything but try to stop Mr. Glass and the Horde's rampage with as little collateral damage as possible, and wasn't even particularly uncooperative as a patient."
YMMV.Gormiti: "Yeah, Obscurio, depriving your most loyal servant of his powers is a great way to repay him for what he's done for you... isn't it, you Ungrateful Bastard?"
YMMV.Granny: "Granny had already crossed it before the game's events by capturing a previous person and killing them. "
YMMV.ICO: " At first, the Queen seems to be a worried, if arrogant mother who just wants her daughter back. But once it's revealed that she plans to kill Yorda and use her body to extend her own life..." Seems more about the act.
YMMV.IP Man: "Colonel Sato makes it clear very early in his appearance that he is a Smug Snake, but crosses the horizon after he coldly guns down Master Liu for losing an extra round he volunteered for. It is made especially stark because up to then the combat had all been hand-to-hand martial arts fare. Even General Miura is disgusted by the breach of honorable unarmed combat."
YMMV.Jade Green: " Charles crosses the line when he murders Jade Green, then chops off her hand when she tries to defend herself. And judging from the fact that Mrs. Hasting was led to believe that she bled to death, it was gruesome."
YMMV.Johnny Handsome: "If Rafe and Sunny don't cross it when they betray John and his friend at the robbery in the beginning of the film, they cross it when Rafe slices up John's face, with Sunny egging him on."
YMMV.JOLLY: "Kevin Johnson definitely crossed this when he used the original Jolly animatronics to kidnap and trap children inside of them, likely killing them, just to test if they could be used to sustain human life and make him immortal."
YMMV.King Lear:
- Cornwall crosses the line when he tortures Gloucester and gouges his eyes out. It's then considerably cathartic when one of his own servants murders him.
- Edmund crosses it when he sets his own father up to be tortured. Just in case there's any doubt, he then orders Lear and Cordelia to be hanged in prison. Even he ends up regretting this and hastily trying to stop it.
- Goneril sets herself up to cross it when she has an affair with Edmund and plots to have her husband killed. As she doesn't actually succeed in this, she definitely crosses it when she poisons Regan to get rid of her competition.
YMMV.The Last Samurai: "A certain massacre of a Native American village by Bagley, the raid being in response to attacks on his forces from around the region. Note that while it's clear that this event (which, while horrific, is implied to be nothing particularly notable from Bagley's point of view) causes Bagley to cross the horizon for Algren and presumably the audience, it's some way into the film before we actually learn why the latter hates the former so much." Discusses the character's POV first and then just assumes the audience agrees.
YMMV.Marabou Stork Nightmares: "Roy and his gang cross it. They kidnap and repeatedly gang-rape a young woman, only because she rejected their advances (actually she had a secret crush on Roy all along). When she recovers and takes her rapists to court, the four "respectable young men" are found innocent by the judge and jury. She becomes a twisted Empty Shell after this horrible ordeal."
YMMV.Nightbreed:
- Eigermann crosses it by declaring war on the Nightbreed. He was always a sociopathic Glory Hound with no concern for Decker's victims, but he really acted on his inner cruelty once he decided to take vigilante action and start killing the monsters indiscriminately, children included, going well beyond his duties as Captain, even going as far as shooting at a deserter who had second thoughts about the lynching.
- Likewise, Decker was way past this by the beginning of the movie. He had already claimed at least 15 victims, all of them families with children. Although he crosses the line from serial murder into the outright genocide of the Nightbreed after his encounter with an undead Boone, which he followed up by torturing and killing an old man to coax him into telling him the 'Breed's weaknesses so that he can tell the fascist Eigermann what he needs to know about them to hasten his insane mission to cleanse the world of "filth".
YMMV.Olivine Romance: "Ed uploading nude pictures of a drunk Jasmine online is the point where he goes from "spurned guy with a crush" to "malicious and sociopathic stalker." However, since this is all revealed through flashbacks, it's unlikely that the audience had any sympathy for him when they learn this."
YMMV.The Platoon Of Power Squadron: "The smoke creature immediately crosses this when it posses a twelve-year old boy and makes him murder his five-year old brother. After it eventually settles in Damon, it continues to prove its evil and desire for power to Damon's wife and to Carl."
YMMV.Point Of Succession: " Deliberately invoked. Beyond encourages Mello to kill Near so now Mello has nowhere to go back to but to him."
YMMV.Raw: "Alex has crossed it long ago, considering her method to "find her food" (jumping in front of cars so that the passengers are killed in the ensuing accident and she can "help herself")."
YMMV.The Rescuers: Medusa goes from kidnapping an orphan girl named Penny to use her to find a diamond in a cave beneath a well to encouraging Snoops to be harsher when Penny doesn't find it to personally making Penny look for the diamond in the cave even though this actually puts Penny's life in danger. Then when Penny gets the diamond and Medusa takes it, Medusa holds Snoops AND Penny at gunpoint to deter them from taking it.
YMMV.Respect: "Yayoi crosses this either when she imprisons her own concerned mother in her sketchbook or when she turns on Cure March and imprisons her as well and promises to see her fear of bugs..."
YMMV.Shovel Knight:
- In Specter of Torment, The Enchantress manipulates Specter Knight into joining the Order by threatening to turn Reize, who she'd already brainwashed, into her eighth Knight, unless Specter Knight gives up and joins her. It's clear she didn't even need Specter Knight anymore at that point; she just wanted to take everything away from him.
- King Knight's fall into the Enchantress' grasp falls here. After defeating the Grand Triumvirate and freeing the Three Kings, they (among others on the Glidewing) are left hanging in a similar fashion to how the Order (including King Knight) hang on after their defeat. The Enchantress butters him up with her words, promising him a throne and the title of King of Pridemoor. King Knight takes the opportunity by joining the Enchantress willingly, and sends his friends falling down. He has gotten everything he wanted, but at the cost of not only the respect and friendship of everyone close to him (including his own mother), but also the freedom of the Valley and its denizens.
YMMV.Sudden Impact: " If Mick raping Jennifer and her sister wasn't enough, then killing Horace and Jannings as well as injuring Meathead definitely did it for him."
YMMV.Thunderhead: " Sloane passes this when she knowingly sends Nora, Smithback and Aragon to their deaths in the slot canyon. When she finds that the flood failed to kill Nora or Smithback, she decides to go the good old fashioned way and shoot them."
YMMV.The Towering Inferno: "Roger Simmons. His cutting corners on the electrical costs is what leads to the fire breaking out. He crosses it when, in his last moments, he commandeers the breeches buoy, throwing other desperate people off to their deaths including Senator Parker (who was trying to save their lives), before the rope snaps and he falls to his death."
YMMV.Zoofights: Hardcore Prawn crossed the line when he threw Fight Rider to his death right after he had offered his hand to save Prawn from the pit of lava below. Even though combat pragmatism is a perfectly acceptable tactic in Zoofights, this act was considered below the belt by a lot of those who voted for the Prawn, costing him a good chunk of his fans. In-Universe reaction.
YourCheatingHeart.Live Action Films: "In Fatal Attraction, the cheating husband is played as a victim when his mistress turns out to be a scary stalker who puts his daughter's pet rabbit in a pressure cooker."
YMMV.A Game Of Life And Death: The witch is, initially, not clearly implicated to be evil. In fact, quite the contrary: When Melissa first tells you about her, the legend says only that she was reknown for CURING diseases and granting longivity—benevolent uses of magic. The more you see of her house, however, the more you realize that she she definitely some kind of crazy, paranoid, and evil, but the real kicker is if you find the "Antagonist Protagonist" ending. You get to see just how bad she can really be when fully unleashed. The first part seems like Evil All Along as opposed to when they crossed it. The later is valid but ZCE.

Redeemable / Redeemed in-universe, more about audience reaction

DethroningMoment.VG Cats: Knight9910: In my opinion the real worst VG Cats strip was #259: The Comedian, or more specifically it was The Comedian, before it was edited and the part where Leo confessed to raping and murdering Aeris' mom was replaced with a lame joke about anal. (Related note: changing the original to just a series of lame jokes really just means Aeris is the one who crosses the Moral Event Horizon for murdering Leo for what amounts to... well, a series of lame jokes; nobody wins here.) It's bad enough Scott made that one, but then he made the next strip into an insult aimed at anyone who didn't like 259, under the pretense that they were offended by the abortion thing, as opposed to them being offended by the fact that he'd suddenly changed lovable dimwit Leo into a seriously disturbed sociopath with no redeeming qualities or by the fact that a quirky comic about video games was now about Leo being a mentally ill sociopath with no redeeming qualities. That almost made me stop reading the comic altogether. The series has no MEH entries as it's a Sadist Show full of Negative Continuity so meaning it doesn't do anything played seriously or lasting enough to count.
MyLittlePonyFriendshipIsMagic.Tropes A To B: "Spike's not the only one to get a dose of this trope in the episode. He finally realizes that his fellow adolescent dragons are "the wrong crowd" when he finds out that they make a regular activity out of stealing phoenix eggs from their parents' nests and smashing them, purely because they find it fun. If that revelation doesn't push them over the Moral Event Horizon, their willingness to take the newborn babies after they hatch definitely does." The Dragon race proves redeemable 4 seasons later, and the only individual to remain villainous redeemed 3 seasons after that.
WebComic.Niels: "Niels shooting Agent 250 for getting too close to 300. Before 250 was revealed to be alive, some fans treated this as crossing the Moral Event Horizon." Niels seems to be the protagonist; only putting it here since he's also apparently a very morally ambiguous character. Still, this is about audience reaction to an event, one that didn't even actually happen in-universe.
YMMV.Dragonlance: "From Raistlin, "Farewell, Revered Daughter. I need you no longer" Or, before that, agreeing to let the dark dwarves have his brother's head. Or before that leaving his brother to die on a ship. Guy seems to do this a lot, at least until he dies to keep Takhisis locked up. So, at the end, subverted. And he becomes better after death." So much about the actions that there's multiple mentioned, but then he's apparently better at the end? So he's redeemed.
YMMV.Friendship Is Dragons: "Concerning Base-Breaking Character Sunset!DM, those that consider them irredeemable point out when they (briefly) took Twilight's player's phone from her, escalating an argument that was otherwise confined to the campaign." Sounds like Sunset is redeemable and this all audience opinion.
YMMV.Star Wars The Clone Wars S 7 E 12 Victory And Death: "Jesse's order of the brutal execution of G-G and CH-33P certainly makes anyone a little more inclined to see the clones' deaths even if they were under the influence of Order 66. It doesn't help that he voices his disdain towards them, showing there was malice in his actions." This was due to Jessie being brainwashed such no one in-universe holds it against him. Rex showed it could only be resisted for a few seconds at best and they could be redeemed if they were able to cure him.
YMMV.Ice Cream Man: "It becomes extremely hard to feel bad for Gregory after he kills his neighbor's dog and shoves its body into a wood chipper." Gregory is evil, but he's also meant to be tragic, so this is about the audience's reaction to the event more than anything in-universe.
YMMV.Star Wars Darth Vader: While the audience may disagree, Vader apparently felt Aphra crossed this line when she 1.) blackmailed him after he explicitly warned her otherwise, and 2.) betrayed him to the EMPEROR of all people. By all appearances, he was initially going to honor her request for a quick death the first time around. The second (and last) time, she had expended any good will she'd had left with him. Aphra is a morally ambiguous character and Vader is personal anger as opposed to a reliable barometer of morality. The in-universe reaction means it's misused as a YMMV.

Not a villain, a character people think did something bad enough to hate

RuinedForever.Live Action TV: "An example was back in August 2010, when Perez Hilton was announced for Wi-Fi in the Sky, there were people (who might not even be fans of the show) that claimed Nickelodeon was crossing the Moral Event Horizon by allowing him on a children's show." Fan reaction to something Nick did. Nick isn't a character, so this is attempting to slap the trope on a company for making a dumb decision. Awesome. Since Nick isn't "irredeemable", it'll go here.
Trivia.Berlin: "According to one (probably exaggerated) rumour, Lou and producer Bob Ezrin recorded the coda to "The Kids", which consists of two children crying and screaming for their mother, by putting Ezrin's own kids in front of a microphone and telling them their mother died." A very uncomfortable example as it's troping reality and claiming a real person crossed the MEH to produce a movie. It's NRLEP for a reason, and this is why it's in this folder.
VerySpecialEpisode.Western Animation: "However, this winds up nearly driving Plankton to suicide (lying on the ground waiting for a bus to run him over) — to the point that even SpongeBob thinks Mr. Krabs had gone too far, and informs Plankton of Mr. Krabs' secret fear of mimes as a way to get payback." Krabs isn't evil. This is entirely fan opinion, or perhaps in-universe opinion. Still opinion either way.
YMMV.The Annotated Series: "In Captain N, Kevin destroying Football World is treated as this by the Annotators." Captian N is the work's hero, so this is firmly about the audience's reaction to his actions.
YMMV.Divided Rainbow: "For some readers, Celestia crossed this by sending Twilight Starswirl's spell, especially as all the repercussions of the swap are fully explored." From what I could gather, Celestia in this still isn't evil, just neglectful and shady. This is obviously about fan reaction, if the first three words didn't prove that already.
YMMV.My Brave Pony Starfleet Magic:

Moral Event Horizon:
- The Grand Ruler crosses it in My Brave Pony: Starfleet Magic II, when he actually makes Twilight believe she is responsible for an entire family getting hurt, just so he can teach her that she should always follow his orders blindly.
- Lightning Dawn has one of his own in My Brave Pony: Starfleet Humans. After Principal Celestia kicks Starla out of the play due to photographic evidence of her trashing the props and costumes, Lightning barges into her office, insults her and even states that it's a good thing her pet horse is dead. This causes Celestia to attack him but, of course, being a Gary-Stu, he's not affected by the punches and chokes and he fells her with a flip, a shove and by smashing a cup of coffee onto her head, which burns her, allegedly doing this out of fear for his life (even though as previously stated, Lightning retains all of his physical enhancements; the narration even states that Lightning was unaffected by Celestia's punches). Naturally, Grand Ruler finds Celestia at fault and fires her. Lightning feeling ashamed of what he did and getting suspended doesn't negate his actions one bit since he runs off and doesn't go back to help and doesn't apologize to her until later in the fic. Mykan later posted a blog post justifying Lightning's actions and blamed Celestia for supposedly starting the fight because she threw the first punch, completely ignoring the fact that Lightning instigated the fight by actively goading her into lashing out. All in all, Lightning comes across as less than a hero defying the mean principal and more like a bully who provokes his victims into a physical confrontation so he can beat them up and claim self-defense.
  - As shown in Unintentionally Sympathetic below, Celestia's attack is supposed to be seen as this for her. However, see below to understand why that's a load of horsecrap.
- Twilight dies and rather than blame, you know, the killer for killing her, Starfleet blames Twilight for her own death. Yeah, Starfleet blames someone for their own death because they had the gall to disobey orders and try and fight someone who was a threat to someone they love.
- In Starfleet Events, Sunset's "The Reason You Suck" Speech from Friendship Games is replaced by all twelve of the Starfleet Humans main cast cornering Twilight outside the locker room and ruthlessly chewing her out for stealing their powers. Not only is it much more mean-spirited and petty than the scene it's based on, where Sunset was at least partially justified due to her friends being put in mortal danger, it also comes off a lot like vicious bullying, made even worse by the rest of the HuMane Six joining in.

Most of these are Designated Heroes, so by definition they are not villains despite audiences digressing. Celestia is an attempt but if audiences digress then it's misuse as MEH can't be played with.

Dethroning Moment My Little Pony Friendship Is Magic: Threedogs 123: For me, it's what they do to Cozy Glow, turning a child into stone. So many adults were given a second chance despite also doing awful things, including a mare who enslaved a village and tried to alter the past despite seeing it could result in the apocalypse, a mare who betrayed her country and lead an invasion on it, personally turning three of the princesses to stone and imprisoning civilians in cages, and a reality warping being who turned the land into a Crapsack World. All of them far more powerful than a simple child. Even a trio of evil creatures who tried to conquer the world and never actually reformed were allowed to walk around free after their defeat. Yet a child gets imprisoned in Tartarus presumably for life and later turned into stone presumably for all eternity. Nobody ever bothered with a more normal prison with an explicitly not lifelong sentence even in the season 8 finale. They gave her a fucking life sentence instead of anything else. Yet the sirens were allowed to run free. No wonder so many people were pissed about the season 8 finale. The writers had a chance to fix this in season 9, and instead they made it even worse. She was already serving her stupidly harsh sentence in Tartarus before being forcefully broken out and railroaded into committing more crimes with the end result of being given an even harsher sentence suggested by the person who broke her out in the first place, who is allowed to run free. What a horrible miscarriage of justice. Again, we have no reason to believe that it won't be permanent. I don't care what anyone else says, as far as I'm concerned, all the heroes have crossed the Moral Event Horizon by virtue of the fact that none of them objected to this. This ruined the entire series for me, and the fact that so many people say she deserved it disgusts me. I only hope that the comics or Word of God confirm that she will not necessarily have to stay in stone for all eternity. Straight up admits they're still portrayed as heroes and it's personal disagreement.

ZCE / Murky / Misc

Exalted.Tropes I To P: " Humanity NEEDS the Exalted. Mortals are not strong enough on their own to withstand all the forces that assail Creation, and sometimes the Exalted have to break eggs to make omelettes. It's just the way it is. That said, there are many, many times when the cynicism gets taken too far even for other Exalted..." No-context pothole.
EyeBeams.Comic Books: " In Injustice: Gods Among Us his Regime counterpart does it again to Shazam! in his definitive crossing of the Moral Event Horizon. He also destroys a bridge with it during an attack to cow people into obedience even more." Putting aside the the questionable nature of a "definitive" crossing, what is "it"?
FriendlyEnemy.Comic Books: "The Joker is an interesting inversion because, from his point of view, this is their friendship. He commits all sorts of horrific and violent acts not because he's trying to cross the Moral Event Horizon but because he views this almost as a game he and Batman play, and it's sometimes portrayed as the only thing he lives for." Written from an in-universe standpoint, as if Joker could intentionally cross the line.
Heartwarming.Cinema Sins: " A sin is given because, in the narrator's eyes, Koba setting fire to the ape village to further his agenda was going too far" Not knowing the movie, IDK how redeemable the movie portrays Koba. This is definitely opinion based, but to what extent?
LightNovel.Cloture Of Yellow: "In-universe, the "Green Hunting" was such a brutal and devastating event that it led the Lucifenian people to rise up and decide that Riliane must be punished for it." Deciding people need to be punished isn't the same as finding them irredeemable, so...
MassEffect2.Tropes A To F: "What led to Ronald Taylor's Moral Event Horizon." A Drunk with Power ZCE
NightmareFuel.Bionicle: "The ways that Teridax crosses the Moral Event Horizon. What is worse, being turned into a painting, Trapped in a fairytale dream, or becoming the adviser toy of your worst enemy?" Putting it in "Murky" because while it's about the actions, it's also about the character committing multiple acts, but is written as though this character's MEH isn't up for debate, but that they did cross it more than one.
NightmareFuel.Zombi U: "The Arena. King Boris and his henchmen capture survivors and force them to fight zombies with hardly any weapons or gear. Now with Fridge Horror involved, these monsters have been kidnapping survivors for a long time, and taking their supplies. Just goes to show you how far they've crossed the Moral Event Horizon." Asserts that the line was crossed, but it's not clear if this is the line-crossing event or just a sign that the line was indeed crossed.
Outside-Context Problem: "Much Hilarity Ensues as they try to reign in a Villainous Breakdown and race to find some way to put them out of the way (without showing their hand to the other group)." Pothole emphasized by me. Just a random wick in the middle of an example, with no other context.
Recap.Bojack Horseman S 5 E 12 The Stopped Show: Moral Event Horizon: In-Universe, Bojack considers his drug-induced assault on Gina as his ultimate low point. '''Low point doesn't necessarily mean irredeemable, nor does it sound like it in this context.
RomanceOnTheSet.Pro Wrestling: "WWE wrestler Triple H was dating Chyna, and then he got himself paired with Stephanie McMahon in late 1999, leading to her Establishing Character Moment/Moral Event Horizon Face–Heel Turn." Wick in a ZCE.
SissyVillain.Video Games: "Cumore from Tales of Vesperia, Dist in Tales of the Abyss, and Yggdrasil in Tales of Symphonia. To be fair, though, that last one is a lot more effective than most of the bad guys mentioned here, in no small part due to his Magnificent Bastardry and an Evil Plan that benefits him regardless of its outcome. as well as his eventual crossing of a pretty big Moral Event Horizon, even with his 80's disco suit." Wick in an example with no other information.
TearJerker.Ultraman Geed: " Bits of Laiha's past revealed: 6 years ago when she went hiking with her parents, Skull Gomora came out of nowhere and killed them. The trauma that Laiha suffered was enough to unleash her Little Star before it vanished, foiling Kei's own plot. Then she remembers Kei as the murderer and almost dissected him had not for a mysterious voice stopping her." Just a random pothole, with no explanation as to how this act would've been irredeemable in or out of universe.
TheUnfought.Video Game: "While Lady Tremaine and her daughters were about to fight Aqua, they're offed by the Cursed Coach before either side can strike." No context wick that doesn't even seem appropriate; it's a ZCE sinkhole!
VideoGame.Albion: "Acceptable collateral damage includes the destruction of an entire planet full of life and preventing interference with this process by any means necessary, such as slaughtering the ship's crew, should they find out the truth." No-context pothole.
WebComic.Dead Of Summer: " A crossing of the Moral Event Horizon later and it's hard to remember that he seemed wimpy at first." No-context wick in a Not-So-Harmless Villain example.
Website.Space Battles Dot Com: " Making false accusations is one thing. Falsifying evidence to support said false accusations is the In-Universe Moral Event Horizon." Putting it here since it's an "in-universe" example about stuff happening on an actual website, so it also tropes real life.
WesternAnimation.South Park Bigger Longer And Uncut: "The Mothers Against Canada (except Sheila) support war with Canada, but not if it means their children are in the middle of it. Sheila learned her lesson the hard way." Pothole bolded for emphasis. ZCE on a main-wiki page.
WhamShot.Live Action TV: "The final shot of the season, is more of a revelation really, of who this man has become, and the lengths that he'll go to, to get whatever he wants." No-context pothole in a ZCE
WMG.Tv Tropes: "And, of course, Tropey is their dog. They rescued him from a place known as Moral Event Horizon, because before it was named that, it was known for being full of residents with an unhealthy fetish for canines." Unrelated to the actual trope, it's just using the name as a fake setting for a joke theory. From "Alice And Bob Are Tropetan's Parents".
Woobie.Other: "Though [Medea] loses most of her woobie cred in Euripides' version and the variations that follow, where instead of her children being murdered by the angry populace, she kills them herself to get back at Jason." '''In this version, Medea is literally rescued by Apollo and whisked away; I'm genuinely unsure if she's meant to be irredeemable or not.
YMMV.Alter Ego: "- You can be a real monster as early as infancy. You have several options to do things from crying non-stop to either nearly killing yourself or attacking others, many of which you're told outright would cause you to mentally screw over your parents (your mother especially) or your targets in the long run. That doesn't even begin to touch the surface of the other things you can do when you're older including capitalizing on a vital mistake someone else at work made that'll cause their life to be ruined..." This is just a list of bad things the player can do. I'd put it in the first folder, but it seems so exaggerated and non-specific, that I can't.
YMMV.Bob Backlund: "Snapping at Bret Hart was one thing, but Bob's Face–Heel Turn was cemented when he did this." Weblink-based ZCE
YMMV.Chick Tracts: "Averted in Chick's eyes, as utterly terrible people can convert and go to heaven. Whether the readers or the characters can forgive those people is another question, though." "Averted" YMMV. This example is using the trope as if it must occur in-universe and with the audience's feelings secondary.
YMMV.Danganronpa Parody: " Probably Yasuhiro eating the butter. And then lamenting that he didn't get more butter after the next trial." No context as to how eating butter is an MEH-worthy act.
YMMV.Dorohedoro: "Kai killing Natsuki." Yep, that's all the context we get.
YMMV.A Dose Of Buckley: "On the borderline of Moral Event Horizon, Krazy Kory's Kidnapping Klearence Kloseout from the "Fines for Bad Reviews" rant." Weblink-based, "borderline" MEH.
YMMV.Drumline: "Mr. Wade asking Devon for knowledge about Atlanta A&T's routines." That's all the context we get.
YMMV.Gozu: " The "Yakuza attack dog" scene, the moment where Ozaki goes from annoyingly unstable, to dangerously insane." Seemed like an easy sort, until I checked the film page, and it doesn't seem like Ozaki was meant to be an irredeemable villain and the film becomes centered around his mysterious death...too murky.
YMMV.Juathuur: " Veithel thinks she is past it because of the means she used to locate her father." And what were those means, exactly...?
YMMV.Let Me Explain Studios: "In "Bitten while defending a Friend", Millie steals Greg's personal journal and starts reading it in the girl's locker room." Not enough information
YMMV.Man Thing: "The Mad Viking killing his own granddaughter because she disagrees with his beliefs." Not enough information to tell if this has any in-universe basis or if it's pure audience reaction.
YMMV.Neopets:
- Xandra crosses the line by crashing Faerieland to the ground, as can be seen here.
- Dr. Sloth arguably crosses this when he creates a cyborg that proceeds to wipe out almost the entire Neopets staff.
- Most plot villains jump over the Moral Event Horizon somehow; Galem jumps over it when he's willing to cause a species to die out of his own Greed; Scarblade is actually attempting to destroy a land and commit genocide out of Fantastic Racism; Razul cursed his own city—and his own son—so he could achieve eternal life as a fiery demon; Krawley manipulated everyone into furthering his whims so Neovia got worse; and Kass declares war over false declarations of peace. While I know the context behind these, the examples don't provide it, and one of them is even "arguable"- which, depending on how we classify MEH, may or may not be considered misuse.
YMMV.Solaris 2002: "Chris crossed the line when he locks the first copy of Rheya in a pod and jettisons it." IDK enough about Chris from this to say, and the work page doesn't give me any answers.
YMMV.Swindle: Sure, Swindell cheats people for a living, but he really crossed it is when he pushed a nun in a wheelchair down a hill, even though it was Savannah in disguise. Was tempted to put this in the first folder, but knowing the movie and how purposefully wacky it is, this feels exaggerated, so it's likely audience reaction, but it's hard to say for sure.
YMMV.Sympathy For Mr Vengeance: "The main character, Dong-jin himself crosses this when he tortures Yeong-mi to death, thereby showing that he's really no better than the kidnappers. And if that wasn't enough, it's also revealed that he also killed the delivery boy who delivered the noodles to Yeong-mi's house, because said guy may or may not be a witness to Dong-jin's crime." This is about the act, sure, but I don't know how to classify it since it's also about the film's protagonist- a very morally gray protagonist. Dunno if they're redeemable or not according to the film.
YMMV.Bojack Horseman:
- BoJack crosses it at the end of "Escape From L.A.": first he enables a teen's drinking and abandons her at the hospital with very probable alcohol poisoning, then tries to convince Charlotte to run off with him, and then comes dangerously close to sleeping with her daughter. Word of God is that they tried to build a character who crosses the line over and over, but they still have discussions about how far is too far before BoJack becomes impossible to care about.
  - Some fans who could still root for BoJack even after the above incident considered him truly irredeemable after he nearly strangled Gina to death on the Philbert set while strung out on painkillers. Counts as an in-universe example as well, since BoJack himself considers this to be his ultimate lowpoint.
  - He crosses this for many more fans in the back half of Season 6, where not only are the former actions and all of his other harmful actions are brought back into the forefront, but it's also revealed that Sarah Lynn died at the hospital instead of where we last saw her in "That's Too Much, Man!" and that BoJack waited 17 minutes to call an ambulance while she was dying, meaning that he lied not just to his friends, the reporters, and the police but to the audience about the circumstances of her death and that if he would've acted any sooner she may have recovered and survived. Even if he did believe that she was already dead, his first actions were to cover his ass instead of being truthful.
  - However, the trope gets deconstructed throughout the first half of Season 6 where BoJack is trying to turn his life around, and then again in the second half: it's not that there's one specific low point for BoJack that made him irredeemable, it's that there's so many smaller ones that it means he's generally just a bad person.

Not a villain but still a very morally questionable character. The work ambiguously if redeemable or not.

So the results seem pretty conclusive. A majority of the usage this gets is in relation to the act the characters commit- the thing that cements them as irredeemable. A distressing amount of these examples are found on non-YMMV pages, hinting that people see Moral Event Horizon as an objective trope to a degree, rather than something based on audience opinion. I think there's a grain of truth to this; if it's about the act and what makes a character truly irredeemable both in the work and in the eyes of the fans, where exactly is the subjective part? The way most people use it, fan opinion doesn't even seem to be a factor.

Oh, and there are plenty of ZCEs to worry about too, but that's par for the course.

So, yeah. Something needs to be done with MEH; whether it's just a description upgrade and better cleanup, a shift to the Mainspace, or even stronger action than that, it's time to figure out what Moral Event Horizon is and how we ought to be using it.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 22nd 2020 at 1:36:11 PM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu

#2: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:38:33 AM

Opening.

Anyhow, in my opinion the scope of the trope is plainly clear: An extraordinarily evil deed that renders the character non-redeemably evil. That by nature excludes anyone who gets redeemed and non-evil characters, but does not require full-on Complete Monster status.

From the wick check it seems like non-evil characters and characters who are redeemed are the biggest sources of misuse. Well, that and references to Real Life which need to be deleted posthaste as this trope is No Real Life Examples, Please!.

I would probably define the trope around the following criteria, not necessarily with this exact wording:

The deed is outstandingly evil by the standards of the character.
The deed marks a change in the portrayal of the character.
The character neither gets redeemed in-story nor attempts to seek it.

Perhaps just the 1 and 3 points, and 1 is intentionally different from "heinous by the standards of the story".

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Sep 23rd 2020 at 2:17:32 PM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

ccorb from A very hot place Since: May, 2020 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!

#3: Sep 23rd 2020 at 5:07:16 AM

This is a reason for making the trope more objective, because the standards for it happen in-universe. Keeping it at YMMV only encourages misuse and complaining.

Maybe do an EP format like Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard? (This would involve keeping it YMMV, as it depends on the people who vote in the thread).

Edited by ccorb on Sep 23rd 2020 at 8:41:07 AM

Rock'n'roll never dies!

FernandoLemon Nobody Here from Argentina (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: In season

Nobody Here

#4: Sep 23rd 2020 at 5:52:26 AM

Whew, opening another big one, are we? Anyway, I think the trope should explicitly be for villain characters, could be even seen as related to Start of Darkness. Perhaps making it non-YMMV could be a solution.

Don't change the name.

Edited by FernandoLemon on Sep 23rd 2020 at 9:53:00 AM

I'd like to apologize for all this.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu

#5: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:02:50 AM

Regarding the YMMV banner, I am on two minds. On the one hand as we've seen in the Complete Monster thread, grading deeds by heinousness carries a certain amount of subjectivity. Even if we define heinousness on a per-character-and-per-general standards rather than per-story-and-per-general standards as in the Complete Monster thread, they'd require similar judgment calls.

On the other hand I am loath to add more items to this "YMMV trope" pile, as we shouldn't have such a hybrid class in the first place. That category also creates confusion on whether it is distinct from Audience Reactions and encourages shoehorning.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Sep 23rd 2020 at 3:06:02 PM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

ccorb from A very hot place Since: May, 2020 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!

#6: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:53:41 AM

That's what sort of hinders me from making this trope YMMV, as currently, it's a mix of objective and subjective criteria (the character did something heinous by the standard of the story that the audience found irredeemable) that could be reduced to purely objective criteria.

Emperor Evulz, previously known for Poking the Poodle several times, now has killed an entire civilization. Alice and Bob, the heroes, now see him as an irredeemable monster who must be defeated at all costs. That is what an ideal Moral Event Horizon scenario is to me.

Rock'n'roll never dies!

Tabs Since: Jan, 2001

#7: Sep 23rd 2020 at 10:20:56 AM

The proposed in-universe trope would be This Is Unforgivable!, but without the explicit declaration to the person who crossed the line?

FernandoLemon Nobody Here from Argentina (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: In season

Nobody Here

#8: Sep 23rd 2020 at 10:24:37 AM

Kind of. Honestly, Moral Event Horizon is such a well-known trope that I'm heavily against a rename.

I'd like to apologize for all this.

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010

NaNo 4328 / 50,000

#9: Sep 23rd 2020 at 10:28:36 AM

Some of the misuse would go there, such as this examples from the wick check:

"However, this winds up nearly driving Plankton to suicide (lying on the ground waiting for a bus to run him over) — to the point that even Sponge Bob thinks Mr. Krabs had gone too far, and informs Plankton of Mr. Krabs' secret fear of mimes as a way to get payback." Krabs isn't evil. This is entirely fan opinion, or perhaps in-universe opinion. Still opinion either way.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

Tabs Since: Jan, 2001

#10: Sep 23rd 2020 at 10:46:17 AM

I don't think renaming is on the table, and if it is, I'm against it.

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love

Big Catch, Sparkle Edition

#11: Sep 23rd 2020 at 11:39:05 AM

Oh yeah, I'd never agree to a rename. Current is fine and this trope is far too big to go through something like that.

I would honestly be down for making this objective. During a Wiki Talk discussion we were unable to properly figure out what's subjective about Moral Event Horizon. If the characters must be evil and irredeemable, then the only possible subjective thing is where they crossed the line. As these examples show, people seem to think that part is pretty definitive too, considering they're all regarding the act- even the ones in the non-green folder seem mostly about the act the characters commit, they're just varying degrees more subjective depending on the characters involved.

Conforming to the more subjective categories would either mean expanding this thing to just be "any act audience members found too evil" or might force us to remove a bulk of the examples, neither of which seem to be a real viable option here.

Regarding tropes like Complete Monster, I think they're less objective because despite the amount of criteria, at the end of the day it's a judgement call on the part of the thread-goers. MEH doesn't have that and I'd hate to see it become an EP trope just to keep it subjective.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 23rd 2020 at 2:43:24 PM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

ccorb from A very hot place Since: May, 2020 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!

#12: Sep 23rd 2020 at 1:21:11 PM

Limiting it to villains would help.

That's what we were discussing not long ago.

Edited by ccorb on Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:21:34 AM

Rock'n'roll never dies!

Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love

How sweet it is

#13: Sep 23rd 2020 at 3:09:52 PM

I'm fine with that.

Removing it from YMMV is also possible...

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love

Big Catch, Sparkle Edition

#14: Sep 23rd 2020 at 3:44:15 PM

Yeah, that's honestly my preferred idea: It's already being used like it's an objective trope.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Oshawott337 Since: Jul, 2020 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP

#15: Sep 23rd 2020 at 3:47:49 PM

Question: if we make it objective, does that mean we'll officially be limiting it to one specific moment only?

"Let’s see who’s stronger: someone that has something to protect, or someone that has nothing to lose."

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love

Big Catch, Sparkle Edition

#16: Sep 23rd 2020 at 3:51:58 PM

Probably; considering examples aren't arguable, so it'd either be the definitive moment or it'd be cut.

I mean, I do want to say that I can see where the subjectivity might be coming from, but with the way people already treat the trope and with how restrictive it already is...

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:52:38 AM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

crazysamaritan NaNo 4328 / 50,000 from Lupin III Since: Apr, 2010

NaNo 4328 / 50,000

#17: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:11:17 PM

I am taking six work examples (which I am likely to have modified from how they appear on the Moral Event Horizon page), to help us illustrate what sort of examples would count under the proposed new definitions.

Darth Vader subverts this in the course of the saga. In Revenge of the Sith, he slaughters the Younglings at the Jedi temple. It was Subverted as he ultimately redeems himself in Return of the Jedi with his Papa Wolf moment. In the Original Trilogy on it's own, it would be Averted.
In Frozen (2013), when Prince Hans of the Southern Isles reveals he's been lying about his love for Anna and leaves her to die, followed by his attempted murder of Elsa.
Animal Farm: Napoleon's definitive crossing of the Moral Event Horizon, the moment when you know he has become no better than Farmer Jones, the animals' original oppressor, is when he sells Boxer, the most hardworking and loyal of all the animals on the farm, to the knacker because he is injured and no longer able to work in a cruel and heartless You Have Outlived Your Usefulness moment.
Depending on the production, Tybalt from Romeo and Juliet may cross the line by stabbing Mercutio under Romeo's arm. Some adaptations avert this, such as the Zeffirelli version, in which Tybalt is characterized as a jovial troublemaker who duels with Mercutio all in good fun and kills him by mistake, after which he is visibly horrified.
The Order of the Stick: General Tarquin tied dozens of slaves to stakes and set them on fire just to form a giant flaming "ELAN" for his son's party. This act finally convinces Elan that the father he idolized is an asshole and a villain who needs to be stopped.
Batman: The Animated Series: The Sewer King crosses the line by kidnaping children to use as slave labor and steal things from him. He trained them to be severely photophobic and afraid of adults. He also scares them with his trained crocodiles and makes it forbidden for the children to make a sound, punishing them by shoving them into a tiny little room with bright lights without food or water for hours — and sometimes, he does it on a whim, even to a kid who managed not to utter a peep despite the extreme scare tactics. In the Animated Series, the Sewer King was one of the few villains Batman had seriously considered killing on the spot, and that's saying quite a lot.

~Septimus Heap mentioned the following rule, "The deed marks a change in the portrayal of the character.", which I think is probably the best one. I don't think "The deed is outstandingly evil by the standards of the character." is objective enough and I don't think redemption needs to be excluded. With that rule in place, the following examples would remain:

In Revenge of the Sith, Anakin slaughters the Younglings at the Jedi temple. This is where the saga shows that he has turned against the Jedi Order and will fight against his master, Obi-Wan, which leads to him being encased in the dark life-support armor. It is Subverted as he ultimately redeems himself in Return of the Jedi when he turns on the Emperor and aligns himself with his Jedi son. In the Original Trilogy on it's own, this would be Averted.
In Frozen (2013), when Prince Hans of the Southern Isles reveals he's been lying about his love for Anna and leaves her to die, he stops being the helpful supporting character and becomes an antagonist for the sisters to defeat.

Link to TRS threads in project mode here.

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love

Big Catch, Sparkle Edition

#18: Sep 23rd 2020 at 4:15:57 PM

That's a good metric but it might actually be better for a different trope, maybe one we'd need to TLP. See, part of the issue is that that'd only really apply to characters who weren't evil before or were at least shown in a sympathetic light. But there's plenty of times characters can be cemented as completely evil without it having to mark a shift- in those moments it'd be a big scene with big consequences for the story and would be used to show how truly messed up a character is, but their basic portrayal wouldn't change, it'd just be done to prove that they really are bad.

Basically, the difference between it being something of a Wham Moment and something of an Establishing Character Moment, but more of an "establishing evil moment".

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 23rd 2020 at 7:17:30 AM

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

FernandoLemon Nobody Here from Argentina (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: In season

Nobody Here

#19: Sep 23rd 2020 at 5:33:15 PM

But wouldn't "deed marks a change in the portrayal of the character" be either Start of Darkness or Evil All Along, depending on how it's played?

Edited by FernandoLemon on Sep 23rd 2020 at 9:33:27 AM

I'd like to apologize for all this.

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me

Sounds good on paper (he/him)

#20: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:48:38 PM

I haven't been feeling the best lately, so I can't really think of much to say, but I will say that the current name is fine if this refers to the point at which a character becomes irredeemably evil, since the "event horizon" part already implies "impossible to return from", and it's a lot better than the previous name (which was Rape The Dog; that name was cut, but I'm not sure if it's on the Permanent Red Link Club).

Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 23rd 2020 at 8:50:58 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

ccorb from A very hot place Since: May, 2020 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!

#21: Sep 23rd 2020 at 6:51:02 PM

Rape The Dog is on the Permanent Red Link Club for being misused as "Kick the Dog but more," and for being a Pothole Magnet to say just how evil these characters were.

Rock'n'roll never dies!

Threedogs123 Since: Jul, 2020

#22: Sep 23rd 2020 at 7:13:54 PM

I am absolutely against renaming it, and I am also against making it non YMMV. After all, whether or not the moment actually did permanently establish their vileness, be it on purpose or accidentally such as with a Designated Hero is entirely subjective. Even in the most highly agreed cases, there will always be nutcases out there rooting for the character, just as is the case with real life criminals and such. That's why Complete Monster is YMMV.

"Some of the misuse would go there, such as this examples from the wick check:

"However, this winds up nearly driving Plankton to suicide (lying on the ground waiting for a bus to run him over) — to the point that even Sponge Bob thinks Mr. Krabs had gone too far, and informs Plankton of Mr. Krabs' secret fear of mimes as a way to get payback." Krabs isn't evil. This is entirely fan opinion, or perhaps in-universe opinion. Still opinion either way."

Uhh... what exactly would be where they would go? I don't remember a particular thing for them being brought up, though we really should establish that so audiences have a place to list moments where people widely agree a Designated Hero should have become irredeemable even if the narrative disagrees.

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love

Big Catch, Sparkle Edition

#23: Sep 23rd 2020 at 7:18:00 PM

What about tropes like Jumping Off the Slippery Slope, which is basically just "crossing the MEH really quickly", Kick the Dog, and Start of Darkness? All objective, and all similar in nature.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Threedogs123 Since: Jul, 2020

#24: Sep 23rd 2020 at 7:31:29 PM

I understand that sometimes it can be objective if it was the author's intent for the moment to be seen as their point of no return, but we want to avoid upsetting the DILP groups and causing edit wars. We all know how crazy they can get.

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love

Big Catch, Sparkle Edition

#25: Sep 23rd 2020 at 7:35:01 PM

...Saying the narrative portrays a character as irredeemable and that it cements it with a specific action isn't the same as saying those characters are objectively irredeemable to us. If those fans complain, that's on them, and we can't pander to them.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

SingleProposition: MoralEventHorizon

11th Jan '21 11:28:37 AM

Crown Description:

Moral Event Horizon has a much tighter definition now. Should it be an objective trope?

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