Okay, that's much better. Opened.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope ReportIt seems like the thing to do would be to redefine as "black men fetishizing white women" since that seems to be how it is used, and is a common stereotype.
Wouldn't examples of "criticized interracial relationship" fit better under Maligned Mixed Marriage anyway?
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"So this is multiple concepts in one. Great. Not helping is the presence of White Gal on Black Guy Drama on indexes, even when Where da White Women At? is also present in that same index...
The tropes seem to be:
- Drama towards the interracial couple; the couple is specifically a black man and white woman
- Black men fetishizing white women, Played for Laughs or Played for Drama
Although it seems that #1 is a gender-reversed version of Black Gal on White Guy Drama, IIRC the two types of couples are viewed and portrayed differently, so I'd say they're separate concepts — sister tropes. Specifically, the black man is seen as a seducer whereas the black woman is seen as a sell out. In addition to that, the white woman might be portrayed as eager for what the black man has to offer, while the white man may be portrayed as eager for a different power structure that he couldn't get away with in a different relationship.
Meanwhile, #2 is Race Fetish (as OP says).
I think a solution would be to make White Gal on Black Guy Drama a completely separate trope (cutting out the Truth in Television soapboxing) and to make Where da White Women At? into a redirect to Race Fetish.
Edited by WaterBlap on Apr 11th 2020 at 7:59:05 AM
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty@naturalironist we have Black Gal on White Guy Drama which is specific but has enough examples to be its own trope. I think we should keep all "Proper" examples under this trope or a new one.
And to be clear, a fetish isn't a mundane relationship. It's something clearly stated in story.
And I always thought this trope is about the expressed fear of white men on the subject as in the trope namer example.
That’s part of the problem. The Trope names context is too specific to that movie, and thousands of troopers who have not seen that film are going to assume, due to the name and overall tone of it, it's about fetishes. And when most tropers are the same type of white guys that believe the stereotype they'll start interpreting mundane relationships as a fetish. We don’t see any of this in Black Gal on White Guy Drama because the name isn't something like "Love me my chocolate girls"
Edited by CaptainJJC on Apr 11th 2020 at 1:59:17 PM
I don't think pigeon-holing your fellow troper is appropriate.
Anyways, you haven't responded to my above comment. Thoughts?
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty@Water Blap I agree that #2 is Race Fetish, but that is a trope with many subtropes, and this is a common enough one with specific enough connotations that it deserves to be separate.
I guess I'd say split and give both tropes new names.
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"I apologize, but what's "Pigeon-holing" mean?
EDIT: @Waterblap I agree with your solution, but I believe Where da White Women At? could remain as its own subtrope to Race Fetish just because we have enough examples to show it's clearly a defined stereotype prevalent in fiction and should be documented as a racist trope.
Edited by CaptainJJC on Apr 12th 2020 at 4:33:19 AM
Honestly, I'm of two minds. While I am in favor of redefining this to be something of a gender-flipped version of Black Gal on White Guy Drama, the name seems more appropriate for the stereotype of black men lusting after/fetishizing white women.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Apr 12th 2020 at 1:53:02 AM
I was hoping we'd end up getting rid of the name entirely, to be honest. Anyway, for some context:
Found in 460 articles, excluding discussions.
Since January 1, 2012 this article has brought 15,587 people to the wiki from non-search engine links.
The name and all the indexes gives a false idea about the trope’s meaning. I believe the original name is perfect for a secondary fetish trope but we shouldn't have it as the official name for the drama trope.
Edited by CaptainJJC on Apr 12th 2020 at 7:17:26 AM
I'd love to throw out the current name, TBH.
Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!I'd back a name change.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
So do we delete all fetish examples?
I maintain that fetish examples should at least be split into a separate trope. The concept that black men really have a thing for white woman is a very pervasive, enduring stereotype with a lot of meaning and baggage, which is explored in the second paragraph of the current description.
To me, the current description can't decide whether it's about fetishizing white women or interracial relationships being criticized. It starts off as solidly the first one (first paragraph), becomes a mix of both (2nd paragraph), and then becomes only the 2nd one (4th paragraph).
I'd also like to point out that in November OP changed the description to remove this part from it (emphasis mine):
So to me it's not at all clear that fetish examples actually are misuse. And looking at the wick check, these examples (first 3 categories) are actually more common than the "correct" usage.
"It's just a show; I should really just relax"Same. I'm for separating both ideas into different tropes.
I think it's easier to rebrand all controversy examples under a new trope, delete all "Drama" redirects, and delete all mundane relationship, "Gender/Race Inverse" examples, and examples that are clearly assuming a fetish (He has always had a love for white meat since he dated Tracy and found Andrea attractive. Further supported by the fact he has never dated the only black girl in the game) as opposed to when it is an established fetish (He has said multiple times he found white women more attractive for whatever reason). since the guys making those edits must have the same fears.
Edited by CaptainJJC on Apr 13th 2020 at 9:28:41 AM
If everyone's busy I'll nudge again in a couple months
Perhaps we need to start a crowner.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope ReportGuess that's what we do then.
So we make a crowner to split the trope, then another for naming, and a third to fix the examples various wicks?
It would be simpler to put everything on a single Page Action crowner, with a note saying which options are mutually exclusive and which ones aren't.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Alright. Going to wait for more consensus then I'll create the page
Crown Description:
The current meaning of Where Da White Women At is split between "Black man white woman relationships are criticized", "Black man has fetish for white woman", and "Black man is with a white woman but I'm going to assume it's a fetish bc its not natural" resulting in misuse. Cleanup of all type 3 examples will happen either way. Crowner to decide how to split the first two examples (Type 1 And Type 2). Note on the trope name/s: There is currently no consensus on what to do with the name Where Da White Women At. This crowner is to decide which way the trope will be split, if at all. Title discussions can come afterwards.
Where da White Women At? is problematic. It is constantly misused and misentiepteted by Tropers who seem to be torn between the Trope meaning black men who are with white women, and black men white women couples that are criticized. The tone of nearly all entries of the trope seem to assume that the black man is fetishizing a white woman since interracial relationships between them are "Not natural", or simply attaching signifigance to a mundane relationship.
Supposed "Gender Inverted" examples with white women fetishizing black men, black women fetishizing white men, or vice versa exist. But most document simple relationships between a white man black woman that is insignificant.
The page and examples through the wiki has a major problem with either assumptions or People Sit on Chairs which a majority of given examples are. While the page, description, and Laconic define the trope as "Black man and white woman couple hounded by bigots from both sides", 80% of examples in and out the page document black men fetishizing white women, or defining a mundane relationship as a fetish. The current quote doesn't fit the trope. The Playing With section as well, before I revamped it in November, defined the trope as a fetish.
I have seen many more misuses of this trope than provided by the sample size of 62 while I did my Wick Check, which follow the same vein. Under 20% of examples out of the sample are actually using the trope as it's defined. Examples that accurately show a black man fetishizing a white woman are either better listed as a Race Fetish or not at all.
I believe most problems with this trope comes from its name, which carries the same tone as the bigoted fear its description calls out. My solution to this would be a renaming of the page to one of its alternate titles (So it is as down-to-earth as Black Gal on White Guy Drama) and a site wide redirect from the original name to the chosen name. As well as of course revamping all existing entries and linkings that misuse the Trope.
Cases of Misuse
- Bigger is well aware that most whites think this of black men, also being the reason he smothered Mary; he didn't want her to speak and reveal to her mom that he was in her room.
Note: In story, Bigger accidentally kills a white woman in a snap decision out of fear of being seen sleeping with her. The story plays around with the stereotype where black men fetishize white women, so this trope does not applyHair
- Gender-reversed with "Black Boys/White Boys". White women sing the praises of black men, followed by black women singing the praises of white men.
Curiosity Causes Conversion- Many colonization efforts in early America went this route:
- One particular element of this is that Native American cultures were far more egalitarian than their European equivalents, so what few women came to the New World were much more likely to ditch than the men were. It was this that ultimately caused arriving European settlers to lose their curiosity, as colonial authorities quickly concluded that the women were being "kidnapped" and made sure that any they "rescued" stuck to this narrative. Sadly, it was centuries before this interpretation of events was given any serious scrutiny, and guess who suffered in the meantime?
Note: "Drama" aspect is used properly, except that the supposed abductors are Native American tribesmen and not black men/slavesFat Camp
- Hutch has an affinity for slim Caucasian women but appears to have made up his mind by going for Abby. Back in his youth, he tried rapping to a white girl (Jill Hendricks) to win her love but she just walked away, which made Hutch blame his obesity for her leaving. Hutch either doesn't realize or secretly knows that there is a chance she also turned him down for ethnic reasons.
Note: Preference may be stated in-universe (Do not know) but still does not applyDarkest Africa
- Israeli brief comedy series Lost in Africa features an Israeli fashion modeling company flying to the fictional country Abuna Kilosa, [...]
- [...]
- Suliman, the group’s driver seduces omomtsiyon, [...] in an attempt to make her bring him with her back to Israel, subverting Where da White Women At? [...]
Holes- He and Kate both loved each other dearly.
No Woman's Land- A Doctor Phil arc featured a girl (about 19) who moved to the Middle East to marry a boy she'd met on the Internet. [...] It was basically said by Phil that Arab men seek out American women to brainwash and hold hostage. [...]
Note: Incorrect raceMetal Armor Dragonar
- A very rare example in anime. Tapp has a crush on Rose. It's also an example of the trope played for cuteness.
Family Guy - Recurring Characters- Sheila is the heterosexual female version of this, apparently.
Note: This is a Black Woman on White Man relationshipLiterature
- The original Goldfinger novel is rather infamous for its portrayal of Koreans as this. [...] It's stated that all Koreans enjoy raping white women.
Bad Day on the Midway- Penelope Snow, [...] The other guys at the BROTHERHOOD ask UCB whether his "first time" with her was really that good.
- "She had pink nipples, didn't she?"
- Of course Lance was doing it, too.
Angel S 04 E 11 Soulless- Shout-Out To Shakespeare: When Angelus greets Gunn and Fred as 'Othello and Desdemona'.
"Oh, wait. Desdemona wasn't in love with the other guy."
black•ish- Junior dates a white girl during the episode "Being Bow-racial", which makes Bow feel somewhat uncomfortable and forces her to confront her identity as a biracial woman who herself was the result of the gender-inverse.
Mixed Ancestry- From The Boondocks, Jazmine DuBois is the daughter of a black man and a white woman. She has some issues, such as disliking her curly hair and wishing it was straight like her mother's (she tries to straighten it out to no avail)
Note: Example is not about issues with interracial relationships yet throws the trope in as a means to claim there was a fetishThe American Credo
- Where da White Women At?:
- "That every negro who went to France with the army had a liaison with a white woman and won't look at a nigger wench any more." (#95; New #190)
- "That all negro prize-fighters marry white women, and that they afterward beat them." (#390; New #489)
Note: I do not understand if this description refers to the bigoted fear presented in story of black men fetishizing white women, or the mere act of a black man sleeping with a white woman is being defined by the troper as a fetish.The Boondocks - Supporting Characters
- Oh Caesar.
Note: The link is to a comic where Caesar, when asked what the key to happiness is, said "White women" and promptly told to stop by Huey. Unclear if he was serious or not.Tropes T to Z (The Nostalgia Critic)
- There are some really scary people who take it as an offense that his Even the Guys Want Him moments have been with black guys.
Congo- Offhand Elbow Groin Attack: Happens to a soldier who tries feeling up Karen's hair.
Surfer Rosa- The subject of "Gigantic" is an interracial couple. The lyrics were inspired by a movie with this subject named Crimes Of The Heart.
Out of the Ghetto- Get Out (2017), a horror thriller by Jordan Peele about a black man visits his white girlfriend's family for the weekend and discovers a sinister conspiracy, [...] earned top critical notices for its social commentary on Positive Discrimination, cultural appropriation, its endless foreshadowing [...]
Note: Trope applies given context of film, but the Wiki Word emphasizes wrong phrase, implying black man has fetish when film does not say or imply itThe Whitest Black Guy
- Tom DuBois from The Boondocks [...] is a black man who is as far removed from black stereotypes as you can get. He's an upper-middle-class lawyer with a white wife, and he lacks the stereotypical African-American accent that other characters have. He sometimes comes into conflict with lower-class black characters for his "white" mannerisms; and in the episode "The Trial of R. Kelly", a very white lawyer (voiced by Adam West), of all people, calls his racial loyalty into question.
Note: Same as above (Get Out)- Uncle Ruckus from The Boondocks is a black man who loves white people and hates anyone who's not white, including other black people. Not surprisingly, Ruckus is very attracted to white women and looks down on black women. [...]
Smallville- [..] To both Chloe and Clark's surprise, instead of talking about Clark's secret (what she was asking for), he suddenly kissed her and admitted that he has had a crush on her for a long time.
Interracial and Interspecies Love Index- Where da White Women At?: A black man who has a preference for Caucasian women.
The Boondocks- Deleted Scene:
- On the Season 1 DVD, there's a deleted scene from "The Garden Party", where Granddad imagines the worst-case scenario at the Wuncler party: Huey calling the host a "cracker devil", and Riley asking "Where all the white bitches at?"
White Chicks- Latrell, to the point that when Marcus reveals himself, Latrell gets more upset that he's black, without even acknowledging that he's a man.
Has a Type- Race Fetish: Someone's type is another race.
- Where da White Women At?: A black guy's type is white women.
Note: Indexed under Race Fetish which adds to the false impressionThe Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon
- Inverted. Trisha, who is white, expresses attraction to two black men, Tom Gordon and Troy O'Leary.
The Kid- Downplayed, but both his wife and Jackie are white.
The Loud House: Kids- He is African-American and he has a crush on Lori, who is Caucasian.
Dirty Sexy Money- Simon and Karen
North and South (U.S.)- Virgilia befriends and eventually marries a freed slave named Grady.
Good Luck Charlie- In "Dance Off", Teddy explains to Emmett that she feels it would be inappropriate for her to go to the dance with him because she thinks of him as a brother. She then asks if Emmett had heard anything she had just told him. He responds, "Something about wanting to go to the dance with a brother."
Extraterrestrial Behaviour- Portfolio: Wendigo Eldritch Abomination, Embodiment Of Air, Haunts Alaska and Siberia, Alien Abduction, Mars Needs Women (preferably Caucasian women), Needs Sub-Arctic Temperatures, Physical God, Red Eyes, Take Warning, Worshipped By Borea As An Ice Deity, Gilded Cage, Leave No Witnesses
Knight Templar Big Brother- The Blind Side: Usually, Michael is the Gentle Giant. But when an armed drug dealer makes sexual comments about Leigh Anne and Collins, an unarmed Michael hulks out and lays out the smackdown.
Note: The Hero's motivation was portrayed as righteous and was not race-based in the sense of "How dare a negro hit on her", instead "How dare this drug dealing perverted fuck hit on herHarlots
- Will and Margaret. Hal and Emily. Both of these are loving, healthy relationships.
Harlots- With Emily Lacey in season 3. They appear to have a genuinely loving, supportive relationship, until [...]
The Boondocks- This dialogue while the prisoners are discussing the prison riot:
Inmate: All in favor of adding white bitches to the list of demands? Motion carried.
Pervy PatdownSoul Brotha
Enter Soul Brotha. This man is a badass. He is pure coolness. He speaks in a slang at once incomprehensible and utterly groovy, and he sho can groove. [...] He may or may not have an afro, but he will certainly be Black. [...] It's rare the creators make this character faithful to one woman. Expect him to ask where all the white women are. Note: Thrown in for no reason and also misused in context
Starbucks Skin Scale
- Mentions that even a plain-looking white woman like Rosie O'Donnell can find a black man, but a black woman would never date Danny DeVito.
Note: Trope does not apply in any capacity here and seems to only be there to document one of Chris Rock's jokesVampire Reviews
- In Blazing Saddles, this is how Bart and the Waco Kid lure two KKK members into a trap: "Hey, Where da White Women At??"
Robot Chicken- A black scientist programs his Afrobot to say this.
Kevin Hart- Oh, Crap!: [...] he is in the car when Harry calls and the phone is on speaker. Now, Harry invented the code "I'm hungry as shit" to signal that their girlfriends were in the room, so don't say anything dumb. Harry however completely forgets the code and when Kevin says it, he responds "That must mean you ready to eat these WHITE BITCHES!"
Blazing SaddlesA View to a Kill
The one where Bond goes black...and never goes back, and teams up with John Steed.
- Carter Nix has a relationship with Aubry Taylor. His sister, a black Muslim, gives him grief over the relationship both because of the race difference and because she blames Aubry for getting Carter on drugs. She only helps him out of jail on the condition that he end the relationship. It's also stated that his sister tried to get him to date black women in the past and he left one to be with Aubry.
Law & Order- The main plot behind "Good Girl". A white college student claims that she was raped by a black man; it turns out that the man was actually her boyfriend, whom she was secretly seeing contrary to her father's wishes. The case devolves into such political mania [...]
Harlots- He's black and his long-term lover is a white woman. They have a son together and he also plays a fatherly role to her two daughters. They run into some prejudice, especially from the upper echelons of society, but no one at Greek Street (or indeed, anyone the audience is supposed to like) has a problem with it.
Fear of a Black PlanetMars Needs Women
Named after the infamous 1967 B-Movie. That this trope was popularized in 1950s and '60s monster movies is no coincidence. Considering the racial context of the time, this trope is a close cousin to the antiquated belief that Scary Black Men are always trying to steal white women. Which is itself a variation on the ancient tribal warfare trope of "They're invading, and they want our women!" While that version is a Discredited Trope, the more general "non-humanoid character attracted to a girl" is not.
Roots (2016)
- Carlton lost an eye because of his interest in a white woman.
BlacKkKlansman- Black guys going after white women comes up repeatedly as a topic of concern.
Office Romance- In season 3 of The Wire, after getting separated from his wife, Cedric Daniels begins to have a romantic affair with assistant state's attorney Rhonda Pearlman. There's one problem with this: Cedric is skeptical about making their relationship public as he is still appearing as Marla's husband at official events in order to help promote her bid for the Baltimore city council. He believes that it will look bad for Marla's political career for him to be seen separated from her with a white woman.
The Natives Are Restless- In his black farces of South Africa in The Apartheid Era, Tom Sharpe uses this as a theme: he exploits the paranoia of white South Africans, especially Afrikaaners that They Will Rise Up And Slaughter Us In Our Beds and that prior to being slaughtered, Our Womenfolk Will Experience A Fate Worse Than Death. In Indecent Exposure, this is a preoccupation of the South African Police Force, especially BOSS.
Note: Technically applies but is iffyHow I Met Your Mother: The Main Characters' Families
- Averted. Initially Barney tried to convince himself Sam was also his dad (Loretta then reminds him "Sam is black"). Then at the wedding, Barney is the only one disturbed by Sam and Loretta's relationship only because Sam is going to marry him and Robin. He eventually apologizes and approves Sam and Loretta's relationship.
Jessica Jones- Jessica says to her daughter that being the product of an interracial relationship and two superheroes is enough to make her life hard. The new Power Man also had a problem with the original, her husband Luke Cage, for dating a white woman.
The PulseEdited by CaptainJJC on Apr 11th 2020 at 6:47:55 AM