Fighteer
Lost in Space
from The Time Vortex
(Time Abyss)
Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#2: Mar 3rd 2019 at 7:05:00 AM
I recommended this issue for TRS, but I think a wick check should still be done before we get into the meat.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Discar
Since: Jun, 2009
#3: Mar 3rd 2019 at 7:26:59 AM
I'm with Fighteer. Pretty sure there is a problem, but a detailed wick check would definitely help. Would be helpful to see the split between correct/fanservice/gay fanservice as much as possible.
The gay fanservice one I'm especially interested in, because there are some articles about how it's easy to tell when a lesbian relationship is written by a man because they use the gaze differently than a woman would.
Memers
Since: Aug, 2013
#4: Mar 3rd 2019 at 9:16:43 AM
I too think the whole title is off, the title is referring to a person's gaze while these tropes are 'camera gaze'.
IMO Merge em all into a "Camera Gaze" trope where the camera is zooming in and using angles to make the fanservice the primary point of view. Move the title to a trope where its a guy or girl starring, with the usual My Eyes Are Up Here or 'Get your jaw off the Floor' comment but occasionally unnoticed or the target starts teasing and ramps it up.
Edited by Memers on Mar 3rd 2019 at 9:20:51 AM
Blapper of Water
#5: Mar 3rd 2019 at 10:10:24 AM
IMO, this is too big a project to not have a wick check prior to discussing a merge. I'm not opposed to merging Male and Female Gaze on principle, but I am opposed to going in blind. Just how bad is the misuse on the wiki?
I'm sure there's been plenty of studies on "male gaze," but a study (that I came across in college concerning men and their, um, habits related to porn and sex) discussed men's RL sexual gaze(s). Both gay and straight men were found to gaze at upper arms, chest/breast, buttocks, and groin as sexual identifiers. Notably for us discussing "gay" Male Gaze, even straight men tend to look at other men's groin areas. My point is that this is not as simple as saying "the subject is a man and the shot kind of lingered on his groin."
That all said, we probably do have a missing trope here concerning characters and their gaze, as opposed to this meta-trope concerning cameramen, directors, and editors.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
Memers
Since: Aug, 2013
#6: Mar 3rd 2019 at 12:27:08 PM
We are talking trope transplant here and not really misuse. The trope is/should be used correctly with what is on the page.
Edited by Memers on Mar 3rd 2019 at 12:30:52 PM
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
#7: Mar 3rd 2019 at 12:53:58 PM
A Wick Check would still be used to compare use, such as
- the tendency of works to present female characters as subjects of a man's visual appreciation.
- the expectations of how the (presumptive) audience relates to the work.
#8: Mar 3rd 2019 at 1:38:45 PM
Since a lot of examples of Male Gaze were hidden links, I separated them, removed the [ and bolded them so the place Male Gaze was linked is easy to find.
Wick Check Male Gaze
Hidden in Links
- A Truce While We Gawk
- Undercover Brother. While the title character is fighting a couple of mooks, Sista Girl and White She-Devil start ripping each others' clothes off and end up showering together. UB and the mooks stop fighting, [Male Gaze sit down together] and enjoy the show.
- The Adventures of Pluto Nash
- Heroic Build/Amazonian Beauty: While posing as a couple to get info, Pluto and Dina go to see a body alteration specialist, who shows them different projections of what their bodies could look like. One of these is the pair as a male and female bodybuilder. Pluto, cracking a joke about Dina's bust needing work, then asks the specialist to make some adjustments, resulting in Dina being given a tune-up in the front and [Male Gaze back].
- Gamora
- Ms. Fanservice: A Green-Skinned Space Babe whose original outfits sported a massive open cleavage and was prone to tons
◊ of Male Gaze, specially during Annihilation.
- Ms. Fanservice: A Green-Skinned Space Babe whose original outfits sported a massive open cleavage and was prone to tons
- Tales of the Abyss: The Abridged Series:
- Blah, Blah, Blah: In Episode 3, when Tear is recounting the previous two episodes to Jade, this is all he hears as he's focusing on her [Male Gaze boobs].
- Total Drama Presents: The Ridonculous Race:
- Ms. Fanservice: MacArthur has more butt shots than Emma, and bonus points for her to [MaleGaze show it off] at times
- Stripperiffic:
- Angel: Justified with Gwen Raiden in "Ground State", who Can't Have Sex, Ever because she electrocutes anyone she touches, so Male Gaze is the only sexual attention she can get. As her client points out however, a professional thief should avoid attention, not encourage it.
- Persona 4: Shadow Yukiko declaring Chie to be her prince becomes especially eyebrow-raising in retrospect when one looks at her Midnight Channel debut. "I've got my lacy unmentionables on, [Male Gaze stacked from top to bottom]!". In the anime, she goes so far as to smack her crotch as a bell goes off in the background.
- Shes Got Legs: In the description:
- There are many things about a woman that can catch [Male Gaze the camera's eye]. Some shows may focus on her ample chest; others, her curvy behind; and others still like to take a really long look at how lovely her legs are.
- This trope deals with cases where a female character's legs are given special attention, either by the camera or by characters in-universe. This is notably recurrent in G-rated fiction, where the Male Gaze is directed to the legs rather than the even more sexualized breasts and buttocks. Gender-inverted versions are rare, which is slightly ironic given that many women are perfectly capable of appreciating slim, athletic male figures.
- Tropes D to F:
- Fanservice: Some notable instances: Episode 4: She Cleans Up Nicely, Modesty Towel, Male Gaze, and Impossibly-Low Neckline.
- Kamen Rider Double
- Hotter and Sexier: Futo Detective, since it's freed from the constraints of a childrens' TV show. The antagonist in the first two-parter is a Vamp who gets [Male Gaze LOTS of focus on her chest], including a Shower Scene (in a public fountain) where you get to see her bare-breasted.
- Genesis of Aquarion:
- Fanservice: Plenty of shower scenes, shirtless scenes, Gainaxing, and Male Gaze. Pretty much every major Element User plays Fanservicer at some point in the series.
- Xiaolin Showdown:
- Evil Is Sexy: Wuya is one of the curviest and bustiest female characters in the series and she fills out her Heylin outfit very nicely. She also gets some Male Gaze on a car when seducing Raimundo during his brief time on the Heylin side.
- Wonder Woman
- Ms. Fanservice: Wonder Woman is a tall, very beautiful raven-haired Amazonian woman (and also the World's Most Beautiful Woman) who wears outfits (such as a revealing strapless leotard or a bustier-hotpants combo) that display her skin and highlight her muscular yet voluptuous body, large breasts, strong toned muscles (especially her large biceps), ripped broad shoulders, [Male Gaze nicely toned buttocks], and long muscular legs.
- The Mask:
- Fanservice: Every scene Cameron Diaz is in. Particularly her [Male Gaze entrance] and the nightclub scene where she appears to be channeling Jessica Rabbit.
- Lupin III: The Woman Called Fujiko Mine
- Shelley Long
- Ms. Fanservice: Even as late as 2000, in Dr. T And The Women. Directors [Male Gaze sure seemed to love emphasizing] her legs, in particular. Often seems to play an Innocent Fanservice Girl, especially in Night Shift and The Money Pit. Hello Again also shows her as a "reluctant" type.
- Ms. Fanservice: Even as late as 2000, in Dr. T And The Women
- Brave:
- Getting Crap Past the Radar: At the end [spoiler: after Queen Elinor turns back to a human, she wears nothing but the fabric that was needed to undo the spell. She announces quietly that she is naked to Fergus. His reaction? He proceeds to [Male Gaze look her down] with a perverted smile on his face.] Her following reaction to tell him not to stare at her and do something (other men being around) sells it completely.
- Live-Action Films: There's two such moments The Good, the Bad and the Ugly. One is Blondie's shirt hanging open revealing a lot of naked chest, after he's been tortured by being forced to walk in the desert with no water or cover, and is covered in blisters. The other is Tuco - you know, The Ugly. He gets a bath scene, naked except for his gun, and even a brief but loving [Male Gaze ass shot].
- Popstar: Never Stop Never Stopping: Crosses the Line Twice: In the limo, tons of fangirls are crowded around the window, [Male Gaze flashing their rears and boobs] before a guy comes up with his dick out. Connor signs it.
- Self-Fanservice:
- Given that the titular character from Bayonetta is Ms. Fanservice, and the entire game runs on a 50/50 blend of Rule of Cool and Rule of Sexy, there wouldn't be any place for this trope, right? Wrong. Most fanart tends to give her more natural proportions with her arms, legs and neck despite increasing her [Male Gaze bosom and behind], and she often lets that gigantic beehive of a hairdo down, apparently forgetting it's basically the ammunition for her combat magic. And her clothes, but then she's frequently drawn wearing real leather instead of a hair-suit. She also often ends up helpless, overpowered, submissive and in outright bondage, which are the only ones that really make her creator Hideki Kamiya angry, as he intended her to a dominant Action Girl.
- Web Original: Matt Santoro did a Q&A video, and someone asked him who he thought the hottest female was. He said Kate Upton, and to prove it, he played a clip of Kate Upton dancing in lingerie, which he [Male Gaze stared at] for a few seconds before regaining focus.
- Twinkle Crusaders: Mini Dress Of Power : Notoriously in Misa and Ria where their clothes look so... Attention [Male Gaze Magnets].
- New Japan Pro-Wrestling
- Ms. Fanservice: Maria Kanellis at the Wrestling Dontaku 2015 show. [Male Gaze The cameraman seems quite interested in her backside.] Same goes for Yujiro's valets ever since became Mr. R Shitei/The Tokyo Pimp.
- Franchise Original Sin/Film
- Transformers: The films have been criticized for its needlessly sexualized portrayal of women most notably through Bay's use of the Male Gaze. However, although the female sexualization started with the first film's female lead Mikaela, most audiences were more forgiving since she is an actual character. As noted by Lindsay Ellis, Mikaela was written sympathetically with actual character depth as a Wrench Wench trying to atone for her criminal history, while also contributing to the plot by helping destroy several of the Decepticons. In contrast, the other female characters are depicted as eye candy for male viewers yet have none of Mikaela's charisma or Hidden Depths. Tessa from Age of Extinction is particularly hated by fans for being a whiny, bratty teen who doesn't actually contribute to the plot.
- Hatsukoi Limited:
- What Do You Mean, It's Not for Little Girls?: Although this manga is written by a woman and has girls as heroines with a focus on their romantic experiences, it is shounen with a large dose of Male Gaze.
- Persona 5: One skit starts innocently with Ann complaining about the road being too bumpy. Futaba's response is "Woah Panther, [Male Gaze they're huge!] I don't know where to look when they shake!"
- The Terminator:
- Florence Nightingale Effect: Sarah Connor and Kyle Reese. Reese gets shot in the preceding scene and Sarah notices it after what must have been an hour or so seeing as how they drove until they ran out of gas. Cue Major Injury Underreaction from Reese. Sarah flips out of course and proceeds to bandage up his arm, apparently oblivious to the obvious Male Gaze she's getting. It's a pretty important scene for their relationship, as Sarah finds out Reese's first name.
- Savage Dragon
- Hypocritical Humor: When Dragon receives an offer from Marvey Comics to adapt his life story into a series of comic books, Jennifer responds "Have you seen some of those comic magazines? They're nothing but T&A! Every square is a [Male Gaze cheesecake shot emphasizing a shapely body part of some overdeveloped bimbo]". Note that Jennifer herself has the Most Common Superpower, and the panel in which she says this consists mostly of a shot of her ass.
Direct examples
- The Rules of Attraction: Invoked, when Raymond (the film student) stares at another woman's chest while talking to Lauren in the opening scene of the film.
- Young Justice - Original Series:
- Funny how at the beginning of "Infiltrator", Miss Martian's the only one to get a leering pan-up of her in her bathing suit.
- Artemis Crock gets this in "Homefront" (with her embarrassingly short school girl uniform skirt) and "Salvage" (the latter taking place five years later, strutting her stuff in a football jersey - and nothing else).
- The Sopranos: Law Enforcement and Civilians: Charmaine's ample bosom is often the subject of this.
- Omamori Himari: So. Much. Even during fight sequences.
- Steins;Gate: Anime only And lots of it.
- The Powers of Harmony: When Esra and Tastar first see Fluttershy, they can't stop staring at her wings.
- NCIS: From Tony's point of view, natch.
- X Men Rogues Gallery M To Z: Arguably even more-so than from the infamous costume top, Pryor's Goblin Queen costume included what might be politely called a "crotch thong".
- Scootaloo's Scootaquest: In-Universe and Out-of-Universe. There are a number of shots that focus on various mare's butts. Soarin's gaze also happens to travel to mares' flanks whenever they sneeze.
- Ultraviolet: There are many shots of Violet's rear and abs.
- The Iron Giant: Kent's first meeting Annie happens with him staring right at her hips and chest, due to her opening the front door fully, with him leaning on it.
- The Zombie Hunters: In-comic example here.
- George of the Jungle: "Valley of the Magnolias" has a quite a bit of focus on Magnolia's butt.
- Shadowdemon: The Narrator being an aforementioned Hormone Addled Teenager.
- Brooklyn Decker: A notable examples goes to her role in Just Go with It, where she spent most of the film wearing no more than a bikini.
- Titans Hunt (2015): Dove's first transformation gives us an ass shot, and it keeps going from there. She's also notably the only female character who wears a skintight costume.
- Is the Order a Rabbit?: The camera is conveniently placed to show off the girls in their swimsuits during the eighth episode. And it seems to focus heavily on the lower half of Syaro's maid outfit from time to time.
- Xenoblade Chronicles X: The Ganglion women get noticeable camera attention on their bodies, especially the rear end.
- Sausage Party: Douche pining after Camille Toh as she leaves the supermarket without him is punctuated by a slow-motion shot of her large bottom walking away. Also, lesbian gaze with all of the times Teresa stares at Brenda's butt.
- Skadi: Fanservice or not, just know that there is a LOT of focus on Skadi's almost bare butt.
- Iron Man: Armored Adventures: Pepper and Whitney each get a few of these throughout the show. Pepper gets one in the first episode when she's introduced and the camera pans up her body as she crosses her legs, and Whitney gets a similar one when she's introduced.
- Elementary: "You've Got Me, Who's Got You" opens with Sherlock forcing some members of Everyone to donate their clothes to a clothing drive Joan is participating in. This means literally the clothes they're wearing, making them disrobe there in the brownstone. There are several schlubby guys and one reasonably good-looking woman. No surprise who the camera focuses on.
- Doctor Sleep: Lots of attention is paid to Rose's appearance, usually her legs.
- Fight Ippatsu! Juuden-chan!!: And how. See "Fanservice" above for details.
- Tomb Raider: Underworld: Lara dons a swimsuit-leotard for significant portions of the game. The camera also seems to hang around a lot closer to Lara than usual.
- Darkwing Duck: In the tenth issue, the second panel with Femme Appeal in it has her rear end in the foreground.
- Sword Art Online: Extremely frequent and made very, very squicky by its application to female characters who do not appear to have started puberty yet (Silica) or are in its beginning stages (Suguha), not to mention the unnerving focus given to Asuna's molestation and close call with tentacle rape. Small wonder people object to its being classified as a "gateway series."
- Conceivably, one could make the argument that since we are following 90% of the time either the perspective of the person being subjected to this trope or Kirito himself, who never looks anyway, the amount of attention paid is usually justified metaphysically to get the audience close to the level of disgust said person has for the action about to take place or taking place at the time. For example, when Silica is ambushed by the giant Venus Flytrap in "The Black Swordsman" episode, we don't see her underwear while she is suspended. The camera stays above her skirtline the whole time.
- A better example is when Sugou is drooling over Asuna's topless form while Kirito is impaled by his own sword and thus pinned down. By this point, it's quite clear how insane Sugou is, and while we can see parts of her bare breasts or the shape of her ass, much more attention is paid to how much Sugou is enjoying himself, and how much discomfort Asuna is in. The bastard licks her armpit, for Christ's sake. That's just fucking creepy, and makes it that much better when Kirito owns his ass at the end.
- Episode 2 of Season 2 has one of the male players ogling Sinon's avatar, staring at her legs and chest.
- Conceivably, one could make the argument that since we are following 90% of the time either the perspective of the person being subjected to this trope or Kirito himself, who never looks anyway, the amount of attention paid is usually justified metaphysically to get the audience close to the level of disgust said person has for the action about to take place or taking place at the time. For example, when Silica is ambushed by the giant Venus Flytrap in "The Black Swordsman" episode, we don't see her underwear while she is suspended. The camera stays above her skirtline the whole time.
- 1977:The Comic: Directed at Robyn and Troubles. Frequently. The girls tend to speculate whether starting to wear bras would be a good idea.
- Green Lantern: The Animated Series: The Zamarons. The first time we see them walk it's from the back, and with lots of hip sway.
- Marvel: Avengers Alliance:
- The art in Chapter 5's mission briefing involves a David and Goliath face-off between Spider-Woman and Wrecker. Guess which part of Jessica Drew's physique is emphasized.
- Omega Sentinel, Sif, Spider-Woman, Enchantress and especially Satana have certain attack animations which emphasize their backsides.
- Probably unintentional, but Ghost Rider's Penance Stare ability hits female characters directly in the chest.
- Against Moonstone, who flies and prominently displays her backside to the screen, he Penance Stares at her ass.
- Chase Stein gets the cosmetic passive "Nice." after using his X-ray goggles on a female character. ("Chase Stein likes what he sees.")
- Rail Wars:
- Used occasionally, such as the shot of Naoto and Shou being shown in between Aoi's legs.
- Used extensively on Aoi in episode 5. The camera even lingers on certain parts of her body at times.
- Haruka gets this service in episode 6, such as the camera panning behind her as she exercises on a treadmill.
- Used extensively again in episode 7, such as the shot behind Haruka as she stretches out.
- In episode 11, after Mari finishes a shower, she takes her towel off in front of Aoi while explaining how to use one on a train.
- Tomb Raider: Lara suffers from this in many ways in the classic games; not only does she possess somewhat... exaggerated attributes in the bosom and rear end departments, but the clothes she wears (particularly in the earlier games) are designed to enhance them even further. Coupled with this is the fact that she is mostly viewed from behind during the game (partly as a necessity of the game mechanics), and it's not hard to imagine what many gamers of the male persuasion would be thinking about when playing the game.
Edited by BlackMage43 on Mar 3rd 2019 at 1:40:02 AM
eroock
Since: Sep, 2012
#9: Mar 4th 2019 at 1:49:11 AM
Can OP expand on the misuse they detected? How is the camera zooming on special body parts not the trope?
#10: Mar 4th 2019 at 10:53:05 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
My original question on the ATT was if that was all the trope was or if there was a non-fanservice aspect to it. If there is, it's clearly being misused as all examples seem to be Fanservice focused, if it isn't, then I don't see why it couldn't be merged and renamed to something gender neutral, although I do think the Gaze theories could be preserved in some way.
As for specific misuses, I did notice a lot of examples are of characters ogling another character:
- A Truce While We Gawk
- Undercover Brother. While the title character is fighting a couple of mooks, Sista Girl and White She-Devil start ripping each others' clothes off and end up showering together. UB and the mooks stop fighting, [Male Gaze sit down together] and enjoy the show.
- The Rules of Attraction: Invoked, when Raymond (the film student) stares at another woman's chest while talking to Lauren in the opening scene of the film.
- Web Original: Matt Santoro did a Q&A video, and someone asked him who he thought the hottest female was. He said Kate Upton, and to prove it, he played a clip of Kate Upton dancing in lingerie, which he [Male Gaze stared at] for a few seconds before regaining focus.
- Brave:
- Getting Crap Past the Radar: At the end [spoiler: after Queen Elinor turns back to a human, she wears nothing but the fabric that was needed to undo the spell. She announces quietly that she is naked to Fergus. His reaction? He proceeds to [Male Gaze look her down] with a perverted smile on his face.] Her following reaction to tell him not to stare at her and do something (other men being around) sells it completely.
- The Powers of Harmony: When Esra and Tastar first see Fluttershy, they can't stop staring at her wings.
- Sword Art Online
- Episode 2 of Season 2 has one of the male players ogling Sinon's avatar, staring at her legs and chest.
Which are to my understanding, Eating the Eye Candy, or maybe Distracted by the Sexy examples.
Edited by BlackMage43 on Mar 4th 2019 at 10:53:55 AM
#11: Apr 3rd 2019 at 10:24:30 PM
Clock is set.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
#12: Apr 7th 2019 at 10:18:02 PM
Clock is up with no progress; closing.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Total posts: 12
Continuing from this ATT discussion https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=73334&type=att
Male Gaze and Female Gaze are suffering from misuse, it's supposed to be a Meta-Concepts but it's mostly used as a specific Fanservice examples of the camera zooming in on a character's body.
And since the titles are about the viewer's gender and not the characters it also fails to account for gay people. If a yaoi manga has a scene where it zooms in on a male character's chest, it would be considered Female Gaze according to the description, despite the character and the Target Audience being male.
It's been suggested the phenomenon of the camera (Not in any character's POV) zooming in or "ogling" a character to be made into a separate trope (or have Male Gaze be renamed to it) tentatively called Cam Service.
What to do with Male Gaze and Female Gaze, to both be merged into Gaze, to better their descriptions, or nothing at all, is still in discussion.
Continuing from this ATT discussion https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=73334&type=att
Male Gaze and Female Gaze are suffering from misuse, it's supposed to be a Meta-Concepts but it's mostly used as a specific Fanservice examples of the camera zooming in on a character's body.
And since the titles are about the viewer's gender and not the characters it also fails to account for gay people. If a yaoi manga has a scene where it zooms in on a male character's chest, it would be considered Female Gaze according to the description, despite the character and the Target Audience being male.
It's been suggested the phenomenon of the camera (Not in any character's POV) zooming in or "ogling" a character to be made into a separate trope (or have Male Gaze be renamed to it) tentatively called Cam Service.
What to do with Male Gaze and Female Gaze, to both be merged into Gaze, to better their descriptions, or nothing at all, is still in discussion.
Editing: Adding the Wick Check to the first post.
Since a lot of examples of Male Gaze were hidden links, I separated them, removed the [ and bolded them so the place Male Gaze was linked is easy to find.
Direct examples
Edited by BlackMage43 on Mar 3rd 2019 at 3:25:39 AM