Manhua/ and Manhwa/ namespaces

I agree, that's why I said let this run for several days to collect more opinions.

Edit: I won't set a time limit

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jan 8th 2024 at 6:47:16 PM

I know, but like, we should post about this on ATT or something. That's usually what we do. I just don't think it helps to set a time-limit; there's no rush to come up with a solution.

Fair enough, I'm good with an ad/promotion of this Wiki Talk on ATT.

Made the ATT promo, so we should get a lot more tropers' opinions on the matter.

Maybe if this discussion had occurred before the namespace was made I could be convinced it doesn't matter, but as it's not causing any problems (which, ironically, Anime/ and Manga/ is causing problems thanks to OEL Manga) I see no issue with keeping them.

As long as we're grouping some printed graphic works in their own namespaces, it doesn't make much sense to me to delete some and create a great deal of work just to enforce a double standard (granted, it's still a double standard since, say, Belgian comics don't get their own namespace, but folding these into Comic/ just absolutely reinforces Manga/ as particularly unique, which is odd since we cannot agree on what defines a Manga).

Granted, I never liked the idea of Manga/ having a namespace at all, if it were up to me, all comics from any country would go under Comic Book/, Webcomic/, or Comic Strip/

But the Manga/ namespace is a whole other can of worms of a much bigger size. Due to Manhua and Manhwa not being quite as well known terms, the small amount of articles in those two namespaces atm, and my belief that they should all go under the aforementioned three comic namespaces, I'm good with a merge. Manhwa/ and Manhua/ are significantly smaller cans of worms.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jan 8th 2024 at 10:43:30 PM

In my experience the only actual problem the Anime and Manga namespaces are causing is that a certain segment of the userbase is trying to gatekeep what goes there. And as previously mentioned, they're outside the scope of this thread.

Edited by StarSword on Jan 8th 2024 at 9:46:37 AM

Light Novel/ didn't cause "problem" either and was fairly large, but got merged into Literature/ regardless because it didn't stand out enough as a medium.

Edited by Amonimus on Jan 8th 2024 at 6:08:36 PM

Part of my argument on splitting "Manhua" for Chinese works and "Manhwa" for Korean works is that we'd be falling into the "pan-East Asian" lumping (it was one of the criticisms on the film version of Memoirs of a Geisha due to the casting of the leads) because Chinese =/= Japanese =/= Korean.

The other part of me that won't argue against lumping manhua and manhwa works under "Manga" is because of how prevalent and more known "manga" is compared to the other two, and both manhua and manhwa's storytelling formats is far more along manga where you have a starting point and usually at least an ending to the story (unlike a number of Western comics - DC, Marvel, Image - with its numerous multiverses and reboots).

Edited by eagle108 on Jan 8th 2024 at 7:11:34 AM

But we're not lumping Manhua and Manhwa works under Manga? There's been several arguments that it's not the same as Manga, but the question of the thread was can they be using a general Comic Book/ (and Webcomic/).

Exactly, the discussion for example sorting and lumping works into media categories is a question for the other thread.

@35: I think it bears mentioning that there are plenty of Western comic book series that in fact do have distinct beginnings, middles, and ends. Sprawling eternal continuities like the Marvel and DC comics 'verses are very much the exception, they just take up all the oxygen in the room.

Ah, then I'm for "Manhua/" and "Manhwa/" namespaces.

True, there are Western comic series with actual "start, middle, ending," although I've partly found those being a bit more common among lesser-known imprints/publishers and indies ^note as in without an overarching story line compared to DC/Marvel, or the Witchblade series, or something super long like Usagi Yojimbo, but I digress, and we'd be derailing.

Edited by eagle108 on Jan 8th 2024 at 9:44:48 AM

I feel that lumping Manhua and Manhwa into either comics or webcomics would feel like a double standard considering we all have Japanese comics (with their animation) in the same folder while also lacking foresight, as the Manhua and Manhwa mediums are quickly growing to the levels of Manga both withing their own country and in international appeal.

Though I do admit, the "Manga" folder may be protected by Grandfather Clause.

Again, we're not talking about the folder, we're talking about the namespace.

I mean, the namespace itself is grandfather clause since under modern rules it would be lumped into Comic Book. But since we don't live in that timeline, we just have to live with it since changing it would be a Sisyphean task. That said, it does make me wonder why Manhua / Manwa are problematic if Manga isn't. Unlike the other recently defunct namespaces ^note Light Novel had no actual distinction from the rest of Literature, Let's Play was just a slightly more specific type of Web Video most of the time, LARP was just a more specific type of Roleplay, these at least serve a purpose that technically can't be covered by other namespaces, if only because the Comic Book / Manga split means that Comic Book is more used for western comics, which do follow different conventions to the typical Manga anyway. I don't see why the other two can't exist alongside it, because there's precedent and no real drawback. And lumping it into something like Manga would just be kind of offensive.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 8th 2024 at 2:43:15 PM

I think it's just the part where the namespace complicates which folder we put it in that's an issue.

(Really, one of the weirder ones with lumping manga into comic books, enormity of the task aside, is then we'd run into the comic strip / comic book split again, where this relies more or less entirely on publishing location...)

"And lumping it into something like Manga would just be kind of offensive."

Which is why nobody is suggesting it.

People did, actually. At least on the original thread. And speaking of...

This is an issue for the other thread, but I fully believe that just making a folder for Manhua / Manwa is far easier than trying to lump it somewhere else. I don't see why it's not already the norm.

Lumper vs. Splitter debate, probably. And since this whole thing is because we never got a specific policy, people just put it wherever they think is right.

Edited by RainehDaze on Jan 9th 2024 at 8:50:17 PM

Part of the problem I have with Manhwa/ and Manhua/ being namespaces is that this site clearly has several comics from other Asian countries not from China, Japan, or Korea that straight up just use the Comic Book/ namespace

See Trese (A Filipino comic), After Eden (Another Filipino comic), Darna (Very famous Filipino comic), and Roleplayers (a Singaporean comic)

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jan 9th 2024 at 7:52:41 PM

Why is Manga/ the exception?

A long time ago, in a distant land, tropers have decided it's distinct enough from any other form of comics, with a common argument that they often get adaptations, don't have colors, or have compilation books, a decision that possibly wouldn't pass if it was up to debate today. Also there may have been a lot of bias considering how many tropes had Japanese names.

Now there are way too many Manga/ pages to do anything with that.

As it's quite an exception, I'd rather it be the only exception until we move to 2.0 DB.

Yes, it's disproportionaly scewed, but the opposite logic would be giving a namespace for every country, despite namespaces being used for format of publication, and comics don't really differ by country in that regard as far as I'm aware.

So to me it's logical to use exisitng broad comics namespaces for all non-Japan comics, while example grouping is waiting discussion in another thread separately.

I feel like the big difference is that unlike Filipino or Singaporean comics, Manhua and Manhwa are both well-known established terms within the Anglosphere to refer. Even if they are (currently) rather niche within the wiki, they are both considered to be distinct enough outside of the wiki within comics circles.

I don't really get the argument that Manhua and Manhwa shouldn't have their own namespaces because if they do then we would have to give namespaces for comics of every country. Manhua and Manhwa namespaces have been around for a good while and nothing like that has ever happened. Again, they are pretty well-established names within comic spaces, so it's not like "People will want a namespace for Filipino comics next" because those comics don't have an equally established name within the Anglosphere.

Manga being it's own namespace might be a case of Grandfather Clause, but I feel like it's such a big and essential part of this website that it's wrong to treat it as an exception rather than a feature.

By all logic, it is an exception rather than normal functioning as things have gone on. It's just hell to try and deal with at this point, because you'll probably run into enough edge cases that you can't remotely automate the process.

We shouldn't be adding more niche geographic distinctions when they don't serve a useful purpose beyond highlighting the country of origin.