Discussion JustForFun / SuperWeight

Yeah, I don't know what happened to the table. I'd appreciate someone who knows how that stuff works taking a look and attempting to fix it. :(

Originally super weight measured how versatile any given humanish character was. Were they effectively disabled from a full range in human society? Were they reasonably able to act in it? Were they in fact masters of their field? Did they have an effective super power that just gave them an that much more of an advantage? Did they have multiple such super powers? Could they effectively alter reality itself as they saw fit? Did they go so far as to be the supreme god of the universe or author of the story being told?

This made it a little difficult to place some non human characters, particularly around levels -1 to 3, but for the most part it worked. This list angered fan boys though, because it meant "powerful" characters who could only do one thing well were lower on the scale than "weaker" characters who could simply do more things than guys who basically hit things really hard. It was taken to the trope repair shop, despite not being a sliding scale rather than a trope, a crowner was raised, and fans insisting having the power to alter planets was more important than amount of powers you actually had was more important to determining where anyone rated on the scale.

The result is of course is what you see. But it get's worse than that. The sampled examples in the description used to be of various characters from various stories who were in whichever weight class. This had the problem of anyone's given story continuing to the point their weight class changed, of course, but the solution was to use tropes as examples, which is even worse because Tropes Are Flexible. Under the old scale Badass Normal characters could easily be just 0 or 1, Action Survivor characters could be between -1 and 4, and there's really no reason for a reality warper can't live in a Mouse World. But again, that's the way people voted in the crowner.

To put it more simply, 0 is an ordinary adult human being, and that's the baseline.

Anyone weaker or less developed than an adult human is -1.

Anyone capable of doing MORE than the average person, but possesses no superpowers is Type 1.

Someone with a minor superpower (powers typically able to be surpassed by ordinary technology) is Type 2.

Someone with a platter of superpowers that make the person far beyond a normal human being is Type 3.

Someone with powers that allow them to create/destroy an entire region (a neighborhood, city, ecosystem or country) with modest effort is a Type 4.

Someone capable of creating/destroying a planet/world is Type 5.

Someone capable of creating/destroying multiple worlds, timelines, or celestial bodies is Type 6.

And lastly, any character that is literally all-powerful and utterly invincible (incapable of defeat or death) is Type 7.

---

It's not relative to other characters or the plot. It USED to be (-1 used to be called Red Shirt Weight), but that became confusing because people were putting mobile suits in the -1 ranking just because they get blown away easily in their native story.

Late reply, I'm sorry, but wouldn't the solution to a page that otherwise worked being changing the rating name from "shirt weight" to, I don't know, "can't carry weight".

Honestly, shirt weight never made sense. Yes there is Red Shirt. Yes "shirt weight" as a bloody minus one was meant as a joke. And yes, it was funny. But we also have a Mauve Shirt page. Black Shirts, Brown Shirts and more I could probably find as using the search bar. I agree that using a bad name for a category isn't justified by being a good joke. But I still maintain the older system as the page's author originally intended works better.

Defining "ordinary" technology is tricky. Ordinary technology can move hundreds of human beings through the air super sonic speeds. Does that mean someone who can only move himself on the super sonic speeds is only weight one? And why does the ability to destroy an ecosystem supersede that on the weight scale? Burning Godzilla can destroy planets through feats and should be able to destroy stars through scaling, but he still can't fly as well as weaker characters like Gigan. And the ability to fly like Gigan would be pretty useful to Burning Godzilla, as it would allow him to move away from the things his meltdown is going to destroy against his will. Jumping up the weight skill as super powers are added makes more sense than judging weights based on whose super powers are more powerful, especially when "Powerful" is measure by creating or destroying. Well what about preserving, shielding, communicating, moving(through space or time), divining, prophesying? Reality warping as a default high weight made more sense than creation/destruction because it at least implies a high level of versatility, the abilities of nigh countless super powers, by default.

Yeah, they may get beat by someone who can destroy/create on such a large scale that their versatility might simply pale against them, but they could also lose against someone who is simply telepathic, precognitive or has no super powers but knows their Green Rocks weakness. The fact is the realty warper will still be able to do things the destroyer can't, regardless of scale. Things the destroyer might find useful. Say the destroyer can break apart matter through electrical discharges but meets an opponent, an otherwise "weaker" opponent, who can't be harmed by electricity directly, cannot be harmed indirectly by any damage the destroyer can inflict on the surroundings, has an attack the destroyer cannot defend against and much larger stamina reserves? It's a little harder to negate the reality warper unless you just take away the ability to do so altogether in a circumstance.

The creator might be able to make a planet? Say, generate solid, liquid and gaseous matter from photons or zero point energy. But the creator might not be able to make his planet invisible to all known methods of detection or make everything that comes to said planet, or even a specific region of that planet take on a certain shape. The reality warper might not be able to operate on a planetary scale but one could still force a part of planet that was operable to reveal all lies told around it, and that could be useful to the creator. Or cut it off from the creator and not just enact phase shifting or matter energy conversions but start an opera out of singing dandelions wailing about how much the creator sucks.

IAT, you're trying to split hairs to reopen a debate that was settled years ago on the forums. I don't want to respond to an entire wall of text, so I'll just briefly reply:

1. "Shirts" are a narrative trope that has nothing to do with a universal power level. A Star Wars Red Shirt, for example, can be weaker or stronger than a Game of Thrones Red Shirt. What sort of "shirt" a character is does NOT "work better" because it has nothing to do with power.

2. In this context, "ordinary" technology is anything the average first-world citizen can acquire or build. An ordinary person may be able to ride in a jet airplane, but they don't own one and they sure as heck aren't going to be able to use it in a fight. On the other hand, the average person is likely to have a gun or a car, and a person whose superpowers are similar in scale to that is more likely to be a Level 2.

3. You tried arguing about the scale versus utility argument in the aforementioned forum thread years ago. I'd suggest that if you want to argue it again, then make another thread.

Still -1. They're broad tiers, and -1 encompasses everything from a puppy to a single molecule.

What No Spoilerz said.

Just like how Type 4 encompasses everything from being able to destroy a small neighborhood to entire continents and Type 6 encompasses being able to destroy multiple planets all the way up to destroying entire multiverses.

The scale isn't (and can't be) exact.

Edited by NubianSatyress

That seems to be a bit too granular to me.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

@Septimus Heap

How so?

There are far too many weakly distinguished types there.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

@Septimus Heap

I'm not very sure about the types being too "weakly distinguished".

Can you explain which weight classes are too weakly distinguished from each other, so I can edit the Super Weight scale in turn?

I can explain why a few of the weight classes are so "weakly" distinguished.

for example Meta Weight/Class 5 is more distinguished from Hyper Weight/Class 4 due to the fact that:

1. Affecting an entire continent or landmass is different from affecting a region (what I define to be Hyper Weight/Class 4)

2. Manipulating of Toon Physics is massively superior to "merely" defying the laws of physics.

Edited by TheTonathan100

I also think that this massive a change would cause lots of unnecessary disagreements and edit-warring over which characters that would fit where.

@Squall Cloud

I don't agree. If I recall correctly, the entire Super Weight page is based on the (rather extremely subjective, if I might add) concept of "consistent portrayal".

You simply need to fit characters on the "old" Super Weight Scale to where they would fit on the "new" Super Weight Scale based on if the descriptions of the weight classes where they would fit are similar enough.

With all due respect, this is not a battleboard site, and you are trying to make it into one. With so many categories it would inevitably cause massive conflicts and disagreements.

Who should decide which character that should fit where? Yourself alone? Is that what this is ultimately about? It seems much better to keep this place reasonably peaceful, and let things stay as they are.

Also, why specifically rate characters based on their abilities to break the 4th wall? Certainly there are many other ways to gauge relative power levels.

We have forums to debate and justify alterations. Unless you have evidence this is becoming a ground for edit wars, I see no reason to alter anything.

The 4th wall thing, you may have a point about it not factoring into in-univese power levels.

Well, battleboard rankings tend to be extremely controversial, based on the hundreds to thousands of hours that a massive amount of people around the world spend within their forums constantly disagreeing with each other with extreme vitriole, so I would rather avoid that fate to befall TV Tropes.

Also, as I alluded to, this particular ranking system seems dependent on assuming that all fictions are equally large, even though, for example, ones such as the Dark Tower have multiverses within grains of sand of other multiverses, and so onwards, continuing infinitely.

Also, I would still prefer to avoid making Tv Tropes to a battleboard site, but there are other tiering systems than the one that Tonathan suggested as a reference:

http://ru.anime-characters-fight.wikia.com/wiki/Уровни_Сил

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Tiering_System

@Squall Cloud

1. "With all due respect, this is not a battleboard site, and you are trying to make it into one. With so many categories it would inevitably cause massive conflicts and disagreements."

Ferot_Dreadnaught explains this best:

"We have forums to debate and justify alterations. Unless you have evidence this is becoming a ground for edit wars, I see no reason to alter anything."

2. "Who should decide which character that should fit where? Yourself alone? Is that what this is ultimately about? It seems much better to keep this place reasonably peaceful, and let things stay as they are."

I didn't create this in an attempt to "control" TV Tropes. I did so because I believe that the original Super Weight page has too simplistic a Super Weight Scale.

3. "Also, why specifically rate characters based on their abilities to break the 4th wall? Certainly there are many other ways to gauge relative power levels."

When I meant "Reality Warping that can stimulate Toon Physics", I generally meant Reality Warping powerful enough to manipulate the strict laws of physics of their universe into far more lenient laws.

Also, see this: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Cartoon_Physics

4. "Well, battleboard rankings tend to be extremely controversial, based on the hundreds to thousands of hours that a massive amount of people around the world spend within their forums constantly disagreeing with each other with extreme vitriole, so I would rather avoid that fate to befall TV Tropes. "

It's not really that hard. Just move characters on the old scale to where they would place on the new scale. I would like the Super Weight Scale to be based more on actual feats though, as feats are the most accurate representation of a character's weight class.

5. "Also, as I alluded to, this particular ranking system seems dependent on assuming that all fictions are equally large, even though, for example, ones such as the Dark Tower have multiverses within grains of sand of other multiverses, and so onwards, continuing infinitely."

Well then, that wouldn't actually be a simple multiverse, but what I call an Omniverse, a set of all alternate dimensions, planes of existence, parallel universes, possible universes, timelines, alternate continuities, realities, Multiverses, and sets beyond Multiverses within a Verse or Series Franchise. A "Megaverse" would simply be a set beyond a Multiverse.

At no point have I EVER deluded myself into assuming that all fictions have equally large cosmologies.

By the way, if we are going to take our tier systems from other sites, just do not use the VS. Battles Wiki or Anime Characters Fight Wiki tier systems. This is because we actually have no idea how the amount of dimensions that one encompasses relates to one's tier of power.

Edited by TheTonathan100

Hmm. I am still vary about this. I have seen how people in different battleboard commmunities tend to bahave towards each other, and would still prefer to avoid this spreading here.

Also, the requirement of a metafictional component for characters in the higher parts of the tiering system seems largely irrelevant to gauging a scale.

Even comparatively low-powered 5-dimensional characters such as Mister Mxyzptlk can do this, as can the bottom tier Umineko characters, who in turn are mere fiction to higher tier characters within the same fiction, and so onwards.

Should we really rate Bugs Bunny as category 11 or 12, just because he can manipulate the plot. And given that the 4th wall is nonsense in the first place, as fiction cannot ever interact with actual reality, just pretend that it does, should we really throw that into the mixture?

As for an Omniverse, that means all of fiction and reality combined. There is no fictional character that can reach that high. Ditto for omni-creator. They can only affect their own fictions, due to copyright restrictions.

Also, the two systems that I linked to are actually more elaborate and far-reaching for higher levels than the one that you used. Dimensional scale does make perfect sense in terms of simple geometry.

Also, feats tend to be irrelevant for gauging the levels where infinite multiverses are literally less than nothing in comparison. Elaborate in-continuity descriptions and definitions tend to be better to go by for such cases.

1. "Hmm. I am still vary about this. I have seen how people in different battleboard commmunities tend to bahave towards each other, and would still prefer to avoid this spreading here."

I can respect that feeling, but we have forums to justify alterations or changes to a character's weight class. There will be no edit wars.

2. "Also, the requirement of a metafictional component for characters in the higher parts of the tiering system seems largely irrelevant to gauging a scale."

I never said that it was a requirement for characters in the Supreme Being Tier to have a metafictional component, just that it was likely that they would have such a component to their existence and powers or abilities.

3. "Even comparatively low-powered 5-dimensional characters such as Mister Mxyzptlk can do this, as can the bottom tier Umineko characters, who in turn are mere fiction to higher tier characters within the same fiction, and so onwards."

I have a feeling that you come from VS. Battles Wiki. If so, I have a rude awakening for you.

http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Tiering_System

"There are many different versions of the concept of higher-dimensional entities, each depending on the fictional rules that the author of that particular franchise has laid out. Hence, it is impossible to say that higher dimensional characters can always beat lower dimensional ones."

Why should one have to accept a tiering system that is completely irrelevant given the version of the concept of higher-dimensional entities that the author has?

4. "Should we really rate Bugs Bunny as category 11 or 12, just because he can manipulate the plot. And given that the 4th wall is nonsense in the first place, as fiction cannot ever interact with actual reality, just pretend that it does, should we really throw that into the mixture? "

Bugs Bunny is a Type 12, since he can be the writer and manipulate the narrative of Looney Tunes absolutely.

And of course the 4th Wall is a logically nonsensical metafictional concept, but most Tropes listed in This Very Wiki are nonsensical concepts when logic is applied to them. So we might as well throw 4th Wall related powers into the mixture.

5. "As for an Omniverse, that means all of fiction and reality combined. There is no fictional character that can reach that high. Ditto for omni-creator. They can only affect their own fictions, due to copyright restrictions."

Actually, that is only one definition of the term "Omniverse". That definition was created by Marvel Comics. Other fictions may define the "Omniverse" differently, such as DC Comics.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=31144

6. "Also, the two systems that I linked to are actually more elaborate and far-reaching for higher levels than the one that you used. Dimensional scale does make perfect sense in terms of simple geometry."

Refer to number 3.

7. "Also, feats tend to be irrelevant for gauging the levels where infinite multiverses are literally less than nothing in comparison. Elaborate in-continuity descriptions and definitions tend to be better to go by for such cases."

I do not agree. Without feats, we often have no idea where to place characters. And feats in the canon override in-continuity descriptions and definitions, as what is observed always overrides what is stated.

1) I sincerely doubt that, and even if not there would be constant heated arguing in the forums, going by what happens in other sites. You might have the time and energy for that, but most other people do not, which would effectively give you control over all character rankings.

2) Well, the tiering system that you just wrote certainly seems to favour toon force characters, and anybody with mere multiversal feats, over characters that unfathomably exceed this scale.

As I mentioned, I much prefer not to rock the boat, and risk to turn TV Tropes into a battleboard community. Things have worked out quite well currently, with a peaceful atmosphere about the rankings. There is no need to upset that.

3) As I mentioned, higher-dimensional stature makes perfect logical sense from a mathematical geometrical perspective. The problem is simply when authors are ignorant about this fact. But that is easily remedied with not including supposedly (falsely claimed to be) higher-dimensional characters with severe contradictions to that stature, due to vulnerability to lower-dimensional powers, or lack of infinite power.

4) And that is the problem in a nutshell. Bugs Bunny simply displayed the ability to warp Daffy and his immediate surroundings with his pencil, yet we are going to rank him as a supposedly omnipotent entity. Any low tier Umineko character can do the same thing, and they are mere fiction to characters higher up the scale, who are fiction to characters higher up the scale, stretching infinitely up to Featherine Augustus Aurora.

5) Actually, it is Mark Gruenwald's original definition of the word Omniverse from his old fiction fanzine. He then imported it to Marvel when he became an editor there. If any battleboard community wants to use it for something else, they should have used another word. Also, the same goes for DC, but can you link directly to the company's use of the term?

6) Well, again, it is far less limiting than the alternative. Trying to fit fictions that do matter-of-fact use a much higher hierarchy into a very constrained space, does not sit right with me. It is not perfect, no system is, but it is considerably preferable to the alternative.

7) Most fictions do not have feats for every single thing, and for the highest powered franchises blowing up an infinite number of megaverses is literally less than nothing to their scale of power, so it is hard to illustrate in a manner that our tiny minds and imaginations can comprehend. So, although I obviously agree that feats are important, they are far from everything.

1. "I sincerely doubt that, and even if not there would be constant heated arguing in the forums, going by what happens in other sites. You might have the time and energy for that, but most other people do not, which would effectively give you control over all character rankings."

Not really. I actually wouldn't change the weight class of the characters unless there is a general consensus for the change of the weight classes.

2. "Well, the tiering system that you just wrote certainly seems to favour toon force characters, and anybody with mere multiversal feats, over characters that unfathomably exceed this scale."

Not exactly. Concerning Reality Warpers and Toon Physics, Toon Physics is just above merely defying physics in tiers of Reality Warping, and is "only" in Type 5 in my Super Weight Scale.

"As I mentioned, I much prefer not to rock the boat, and risk to turn TV Tropes into a battleboard community. Things have worked out quite well currently, with a peaceful atmosphere about the rankings. There is no need to upset that."

I'm not trying to cause any trouble. I simply believe that the Super Weight Scale is far too simplistic for actual character rankings. A simple change to the scale is not going to really "upset" much.

3. "As I mentioned, higher-dimensional stature makes perfect logical sense from a mathematical geometrical perspective."

Here's a thought experiment. Imagine that in one Verse, a universe alone was 11-dimensional, meaning that to destroy it makes you an 11-dimensional being. In another verse, a Multiverse is only 5-dimensional.

Should that logically mean that Universe Busting for one Verse is greater than Multiverse Busting for another Verse? No, because projective geometry and mathematical dimensions have no inherent relationship towards power.

"The problem is simply when authors are ignorant about this fact. But that is easily remedied with not including supposedly (falsely claimed to be) higher-dimensional characters with severe contradictions to that stature, due to vulnerability to lower-dimensional powers, or lack of infinite power."

Emperor Joker had his head punched through by Superman. Guess all 5th Dimensional Imps are no longer actually 5-dimensional.

4. "And that is the problem in a nutshell. Bugs Bunny simply displayed the ability to warp Daffy and his immediate surroundings with his pencil, yet we are going to rank him as a supposedly omnipotent entity."

Yes, because (in that specific cartoon) Bugs Bunny had the unlimited cosmic power of being the writer.

"Any low tier Umineko character can do the same thing, and they are mere fiction to characters higher up the scale, who are fiction to characters higher up the scale, stretching infinitely up to Featherine Augustus Aurora."

Read number 3. Also, a 2-dimensional drawing on 3-dimensional paper is not "fictional". It's still real, because it exists in reality as a drawing.

5. "Actually, it is Mark Gruenwald's original definition of the word Omniverse from his old fiction fanzine. He then imported it to Marvel when he became an editor there."

Yes. And?

"If any battleboard community wants to use it for something else, they should have used another word."

A philosopher known as William James coined the term "multiverse", but in a different context than "a set of multiple universes". I guess we need to use only his definition of "multiverse".

Also, the same goes for DC, but can you link directly to the company's use of the term?"

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=31144

6. "Well, again, it is far less limiting than the alternative. Trying to fit fictions that do matter-of-fact use a much higher hierarchy into a very constrained space, does not sit right with me. It is not perfect, no system is, but it is considerably preferable to the alternative."

Well, if The 'Verse in question stated that there were higher dimensional spacetime continuums, AND that these higher dimensions were above The Multiverse, THEN we can say that The 'Verse is a Megaverse/Omniverse.

7. "Most fictions do not have feats for every single thing, and for the highest powered franchises blowing up an infinite number of megaverses is literally less than nothing to their scale of power, so it is hard to illustrate in a manner that our tiny minds and imaginations can comprehend. So, although I obviously agree that feats are important, they are far from everything."

For god tier series franchises or Verses such as Marvel Comics or DC Comics, what you say is true. I do agree that uncontradicted and non-hyperbolic statements are also important, although not as important as feats.

I would appreciate if you would please refrain from inserting chopped up quotes into your responses. It spams the page with walls of text, and is wholly unnecessary, as it is easy to read what I have said in my original posts. The numbered segments are a good idea though.

1. Look, the point is that this is not a wiki for ordering characters into weight classes, it is a wiki for categorising plot conveniences. And if we start to categorise characters too strictly, whether to your preferences or those of others, it would inevitably bring with it considerable amounts of drama, endless disagreements, and a vast amount of time and effort from all involved.

You and I both likely have enough experience with these types of matter to know that it most likely will bring with it lots of trouble due to constant time-consuming disagreements.

There are already at least three major perfectly good wikis dedicated to power rankings, and I am personally doubtful that it is a good idea to even have pages for this here in the first place, but it is not my place to criticise, and entirely up to the local moderators to decide.

2. Well, they certainly favour a metafictional component as a requirement, which seems way too one-sided. Any character with plot manipulation, or make-believe claims of somehow ascending to being a writer automatically gets a free pass to tier 12, regardless if it was done as a mere gag, and they strictly performed local reality-warping feats, without any indications of being able to manipulate extremely higher degrees of reality.

3. Going by math, projective geometry very much does have a direct relationship towards power. No matter how great an infinite number of 2-dimensional objects without height that you stack on top of each other they will still never be 3-dimensional.

Similarly, no matter how many infinite numbers of 5-dimensional multiverses you stack on top of each other you will never even make them 6-dimensional. Again, the problem is not with the logic of the system itself, it is merely with that not all writers understand or care about this fact.

However, there are plenty of fictions that do not remotely adhere to your system with “Mega verses” either, which is merely a throwaway reference in the Marvel handbooks, and yet many old school battle board members habitually attempt to fit every fiction in existence to be constrained by terms and conditions that are far too small and limited in imagination to remotely fit.

There are various things wrong with the Emperor Joker assumption. A lower-dimensional being can logically never affect more than an infinitely thin slice of a higher-dimensional entity, and in addition Grant Morrison clearly established that the 5-dimensional imps were two degrees of infinity above regular 3-D reality. “Plot Induced Stupidity” story convenience from another writer does not invalidate these facts, and speaking of which it does not make any sense for 5-dimensional power to be contained within a 3-Dimensional vessel, any more that you can fit within a 1-dimensional line. In any case, it is much easier to assume that the Joker had not acclimatised to his newfound infinite stature, and that what Superman punched through was simply a representation of his true being. It has also been a long time since I read Emperor Joker, but from what I remember, Superman could not do anything to defeat him by physical force.

In addition, Marvel and DC characters regularly go from Wall level to Universe level from story to story at the drop of a hat. The writers do not tend to care about consistency in the slightest.

4. Bugs Bunny being the writer was a make-believe gag, and he strictly displayed the ability to recreate Daffy’s form, along with painting regular surroundings, not higher-dimensional manipulation. There are fictions that run on the principle of fictions within fictions within fictions, stretching infinitely, including Umineko. The only way to properly gauge the scale of the power of such characters is to evaluate the scope of the fiction/dream/information that they are able to manipulate. Just throwing every single “author” character under the same label, and automatically rank them higher than all the most powerful metaphysical cosmic entities, no matter how unimpressive the scope of their feats would be a massive, and unfair, oversimplification.

5. The point is that the correct terminology for a cow is not “penguin”, and fan bastardisations of a term are not in any way official.

Multiverse on the other hand very much has developed into an official term within the scientific community, even if theories regarding its nature, and how many dimensions it has tend to differ.

Anyway, regardless whether DC uses the word, it is still impossible for their characters to affect anything outside of their own franchise. They could pretend that they destroyed the “omniverse” within a story, and the rest of fiction and reality would still be fine.

6. The traditional battle board definition of a “mega verse” is just a collection of multiverses, whereas your definition of “omniverse” is just a collection of “mega verses”. These are extremely limiting fan terminology that many authors are easily able to let their characters and structures vastly transcend. There are problems with any system, including the partially dimension-based one, but there are considerably bigger ones with attempting to use Marvel Comics as the end-all be-all size-fit-all for all fiction, regardless of scope and, especially as Marvel itself recurrently does not subscribe to the system.

7. There are indeed certain characters in Marvel and DC capable of performing such feats, and there are many others from fictions that we have never heard of that are capable of doing the same thing, or more. I like Marvel and DC fine. I grew up on them, but popularity, familiarity, and even quality of writing, are no automatic requirements for a superior scale of power. I am uneasy with attempting to use them as some kind of elevated standard, rather than devise independent systems that are better adapted for different types of settings and higher scales of power.

@Squall Cloud

1. Personally, I believe that the Super Weight Scale is great for quelling VS. debates that devolve into Flame Bait and Flame Wars, such as Goku VS. Superman and Galactus VS. Unicron.

On an unrelated note, what do you mean by 3 major wikis? The only major wikis that I know for VS. debates are the Outskirts Battledome Wiki and the VS. Battles Wiki.

2. Characters that "only" manipulate the plot and aren't completely omnipotent can range anywhere on the scale from Type 8 to Type 11.

3. Here is a quote from my friend on dimensional tiering and projective geometry:

"It depends on the type of dimensions - higher levels of existence can range from entire infinite universes being less than an atom in a higher dimensions (and said system continuing on forever) to just people with strange angles. Then there's stuff like higher realms being more real than lower realms. Basically, dimensions should be tackled per individual series, not bulked together in an all-encompassing power levels system, as dimensions vary greatly from work to work, and we don't even know if higher dimensions exist."

My definition of Megaverse and Omniverse is such because, other than dimensional tiering, most series franchises do not go beyond The Multiverse in scale. Those that do are often considered "God Tier".

I would like some evidence showing that DC Comics and Marvel Comics are that inconsistent.

4. In this case, I'm going to agree. Bugs Bunny only manipulated a universe, which would "only" put him at Type 8 on my scale. I can agree with you that simply throwing ever "author" character under the same type, and automatically rank them higher than all the most powerful metaphysical cosmic entities, no matter how unimpressive the scope of their feats, would be a massive, and unfair, oversimplification.

But on the concept of dimensional tiering and projective geometry, refer to number 3.

5. Okay...

6. Actually, Marvel does use the terms "Megaverse" and "Omniverse" on occasion.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?bt=225457

Sometimes the term "Omniverse" is confused with "Multiverse" and this facet should be noted anytime something is said to be "outside of the Omniverse".

7. Dimensional tiering doesn't really work either. Dimensional tiering only works if such a thing is explicitly specific to be the case within the setting.

Edited by TheTonathan100

Also, this:

"It's still inconsistent. Quantum mechanics is great, but half the dimensions you talk about in terms of String Theory are rolled up at Planck scale lengths. Being 'nine dimensonal' doesn't have a lot of meaning when those extra dimensions are basically nonexistent. That's why that entire discussion about the LT and Chousin is worthless. We cannot definitively say what dimensions mean for power, how they scale with power, or whether they are consistent. I also don't really understand why being four dimensional is impressive because we live in a four dimensional world. It's not particularly impressive. And then going up a single dimension to 5D makes you Mxy? And going up four makes you like Darkseid? The 'dimension' thing is utterly arbitrary and has no quantitative worth when discussing power."

@Squall Cloud

Bumping.

1. Hi Tonathon.

2. The real issue here is the last 2 tiers. Tonathon you yourself should know multiverse debates go nowhere. Yeah sure whatever some infinities are bigger than others but really nobody can agree on anything. I agree with this thing overall though. After all, what does "minor superhuman" and "large scale disaster" mean? Where do we draw the line?

I think the last tier is fine as Author/Omnipotent and the second to last tier should just be "multiverse". Just flat that. No disagreements on who has the bigger multiverse just "can affect more than one universe". Simple.

I would personally have no problem redoing the scale to be a little less verbose and still fit the mood tbh. And I do understand this isn't a VS. Site and I understand all of your concerns @Squall Cloud.

Edited by Xcano Follow my Tumblr.

At least type 2 (superhuman). May be higher depending on the scope of their omnipresence (city, planet, universe) and what they can do with it (they might be able to manifest no more ability at once then a normal person).

Wait. Allow me to correct myself. I'm wrong. I apologize for disturbing.

Fragile weight covers that, hell Kenny might rank higher since resurrection is a (debatable) superpower.

Well, the way I've understood it is that they have to be absolutely, no wiggle room, 100% omnipotent. Anything lower than that and they are "just" a Type 6.

In our heart, Mr. Ando will always be a penguin.

Actually, no. There are four exceptions I found for you to be classified as a Type 7 without being fully Omnipotent(there might be more): Nigh Omnipotence: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Nigh_Omnipotence Ultipotence: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Ultipotence Piathifery(if powerful enough): http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Pathifery Cyberpotence: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Cyberpotence Sorry I'm a little late :P LOL!

Edited by 69.116.37.217

@Jjp: Have you actually had any discussion on this matter? If not I don't think your word can be taken officially. The description says that Type 7 must be absolutely omnipotent.

This is a necro, but by that logic Eru Ilúvatar, minus., the Emperor-beyond-the-Sea and so on should not be classified as omnipotent as they are not truly infinite omniversal beings who can survive being hit with trillions of universes at once. Lord English can (each Genesis Frog contains a infinite number of alternate universes and he can destroy them, so it stands to reason he can tank one), and yet he is classified as type 6 (alongside Galactus who is what? Universe Level+ when extremely well fed?) because he is not completely omnipotent.

The big problem with this system is its simplicity. Compared to the VS Battles Wiki system, it has far less tiers and cannot properly determine the rank of multiversal beings.

Why You Shouldn't Eat Meat

Be Bold for this page.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Thanks very much. :)

Edited by 434411423124222344 Why You Shouldn't Eat Meat

It's not.

Before I would have said yes, now I'm not too sure since the page has mutated into something far away from its original self.

Regarding this exact change, there are definitely more than vestiges of power levels in the examples, most commonly between types 3 and 4 (to a lesser extent 5).

By which I mean that, in works with numerous tier 3s, the most skilled/experienced/formidable are placed in tier 4 to put them above the "normal" supers.

For example, in Harry Potter, Voldemort, Dumbledore, Grindelwald, house elves and any rightful owner of the Elder Wand are tier 4'd without ever showing that kind of personal effect on their surroundings.

With something like a year of absolute power, Voldy is able to wreak incomplete devastation on Magical Britain (apparently a small disparate and vulnerable community of several thousands) and some not-really-significant damage on mundane Britain (a small-ish country with a large, compact population), using an army of wizards and magical creatures (notably all of the Dementors are entirely on his side). A tier 4 villain is capable of worse havoc by itself with no aid from any Mooks; Riddle, whose most compelling displays of power are killing a large number of people at once when they're confined in one (large?) room and already in awe of and terrified of him, generally making most people soil themselves in dread at the thought of him due to his monstrous crimes combined with martial success and not-dying until the very end of the series despite losing at least one body (his original) outright.

If Super Weight were to include one's armies and minions than the likes of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin would rate as tier 4 at least, if not borderline 5 (Stalin moreso, since the Soviet Union already had working nukes in his lifetime).

Death itself is rated tier 6 as a "character" based on its appearance as such in a Story Within a Story; this is a little suspect as well.

Another example: Claymore's resident heavy hitter the Destroyer (a unique awakened being motivated solely to destroy everything around itself, born from the merger of two sisters, one awakened already and one an unawakened hybrid, who kinda-died while both on the wrong side of the Despair Event Horizon) is able to destroy (at most) a few square miles of forest, infect a few characters and spawn a bunch of D-list awakened beings. The Destroyer is rated at 5, while the tiers' descriptions would peg it at a borderline case between 3 and 4, with everyone from Clarice (weak enough to be comparable to an unaugmented human) through all Youma, warriors, Awakened and Abyssals up to Priscilla (undefeated even by the Destroyer) being clear 3's. Priscilla can presumably mop the floor with 10,000 Clarices in one sitting (possibly while literally sitting) but she is still just a Super, limited to affecting only her close vicinity. Certainly she is not in any way in the league of, say, Darkseid or Sarah Kerrigan.

Edited by 79.114.55.134

Well, in the original proposed and launched you know the thing where entry it was universal across the board, regardless of setting.

Rank Inflation there were also only five categories]] and I really don't like what the page has since become because it only changed in response to those who wanted to treat it like the then locked page Who Would Win, so making it strictly setting by setting would put a damper on that.

There are my two arguments for either action.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

Agreed. The line seems inherently contradictory, and we should probably amend it to cut out that part.

You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

As it's been nearly a year with no objections, I will go ahead and amend the line to omit "based on the setting". This is more consistent with the current criteria of the weight categories.

Edited by 76.172.88.137

We know nothing about what the being above ZMM is, except that it sealed ZMM. There is, however, a mysterious "God" entity mentioned in various Digimon's official profiles, apparently distinct from both Yggdrasil and ENIAC (the host computers that run the Digital World). Daemon's profile in particular implies that this being is the human who originally programmed the Digital World, and who now resides within it. That's probably the best guess to what sealed ZMM. Outskirts Battledome, for what it's worth, ranks "God" and ZeedMillenniumon as being of the same power.

Edited by HamburgerTime

Ah. Then would it be a Type 6?

In our heart, Mr. Ando will always be a penguin.

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I'm going to break comic books into categories based on what "family" they originate from. (X-Men, Bat-Family, Wildstorm, etc.) It's becoming too difficult to keep them organized otherwise.

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Why would Oasis and Kusari be 3? A list of their powers would be almost the same as a vampire's.

Adding to the above, the relative strengths of characters isn't even always as clear cut as these weight classes make it seem. Here's an example from the Shin Megami Tensei series: Nyx, the personification of death from Persona 3, is a class 5, unable to be defeated by the persona user player character because doing so would require altering the very nature of the universe (and given the series' metaphysics, would probably cause time itself to stop), which is quite simply beyond the purview of the abilities a persona user may have. Here's the problem. There are also characters in the series who are capable of existing betwixt and between time and space, and are capable of altering the nature of a universe, and even multiple universes simultaneously, as the Demi-Fiend does in his True Demon state. The Demi-Fiend does not qualify as a class 5 because he isn't any kind of force of nature, but he is explicitly capable of doing away with them, thus breaking the scale.

A true class 5 is something that alters reality just by being there. It is the force or personification of a concept and its existence corroborates the idea and vice versa. Nyx, being the personification of death itself cannot be destroyed without destroying death itself. She does and always will exist until the concept of dying is no longer part of reality. Consider Haruhi's situation, she warps reality, but unconsciously. If a normal person tried to take her down her subconscious would not accept it and quickly rewrite a portion of reality to accommodate a winning scenario. Any type 5 that exists is part of the Truth of that particular universe and cannot be ended but by a larger piece of truth changing.

Book 11 proves that that's not true, and you could just stab her to death before she had time to react. Your scale doesnt work.

If she is killed, then what happens to the world? Without the person who is essentially making things run the particular way they do, there are only two logical ends. One is that the world instantly reverts to how it was before she began messing with reality. The second is that it just ends (or falls apart) for want of the cornerstone it was built on. Unless she still existed as a consciousness or someone else instantly reabsorbed her powers it would not end well.

And? The point isn't the fate of the people who try to kill her (and they'd survive anyway, being a type 4 reality warper and her master), the point is that a type 4 was able to effortlessly very nearly kill a type 5 (and was stopped by a type 1). Seeing as the function of this list is to serve as a "who would win in a fight" list and the lower tiers are populated with people who could kick higher tier's asses already, we need to either re-shuffle or think of tier definitions that fail less.

Edited by TheMalignancy

The function of the list is what you can do, not who wins in a fight and is partially around just to keep gushing off of Person of Mass Destruction, Power Levels, Ratings Are Off The Scale and such.

If someone lacks the ability to be on type five four or whatever fix it. The scale has been put through the trope repair shop(could still be in their while you're reading this).

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

My guess is that would be Class 0, with the citizens as -1.

Criminals fight a lot you'd assume. Depending on how well they'd be a 0 or 1 unless they had powers.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

Yeah, that should likely be fixed, unless the person is treating each match like it's own story.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack

1: All civilizations with access to time travel are tier 4, by default. The Cybermen, having superhuman strength/intelligence/logical thought are a low tier 3 at highest and a mid tier 2 at lowest. Not too sure which, and fairly certain it depends on how competent the writers have decided to make them. For context the Time Lords are tier 5, generally serving as more background detail and narrative devices rather than actual characters.

2: Yep.

3: Silence are type 2 highest, and one of the many things this scale is ill-designed to judge due to their memory thing.

4: No idea.

5: All ponies are tier two by default, due to being ponies and only having one power each. Not sure why they're on the fighting ability index, what with being all hugs and rainbows, but hey.

Edited by TheMalignancy

1: I think there should be a distinction between individual power and collective power. Individually, Cybermen would be at least Type 2. Collectively - as with many space opera civilizations - they must be at least a high Type 3. Time travel access is a matter of degree, because even 20th century humans have limited time travel in the Whoniverse. Collectively, the superpowers of the Whoniverse (Time Lords, Last Daleks, Silence, Osirians etc) would be very very high Type 4, with the Time Lords having the potential to ascend to Type 5 if the Final Sanction is anything to go by.

5: For some reason, Applejack is Type 1 while all her (canonically) physically weaker friends are Type 2. However, her strength is clearly more akin to Spiderman than Batman. And Twilight is a Type 3 if I ever saw one.

And the ponies aren't all hugs and rainbows. They're the fightingest, badassest, awesomest ponies you ever saw.

Edited by RandomGMan

Being somewhat familiar with the character, I'd say that Shadow w/o a Chaos Emerald is a Class 2. Shadow w/ a Chaos Emerald is a Class 3. Super Shadow is a more powerful Class 3.

Ah, okay. Thanks.

Quest 64 thread

 ^*

Though it's hard to tell how much of his power there is his Time Lord biology and how much is technology.