Removing complaining, bashing and other negativity from the wiki

Derp... I overlooked it because of a combination of the bold "Real Life" header at the top of the example list and the lack of a header for the folders for subversions and in-universe examples.

Edit: Since the subversion folder is for real life examples, shouldn't it be removed since neither real life nor YMMV can be played with? (Granted, I looked at the first several examples and they don't look complain-y, so that's probably off-topic for this thread.)

Edited by GastonRabbit on Oct 31st 2020 at 8:44:51 AM

In the Others folder, I have corrected a statement about New York City in that it's not actually a peninsula and the most built-up part of New York City is actually an island called Manhattan.

The No Sympathy page has this:

• Every Animaniacs "Buttons and Mindy" short ends this way. After practically killing himself to save the life of the world's most annoying little girl, Buttons' reward was a verbal dressing-down for some minor fault incurred along the way, plus the loss of a treat. It didn't work as comedy and it was often the only thing resembling a comedy beat in the short. Shortly thereafter, Mindy would usually lavish a bit of toddlerish affection on Buttons, which seemed to comfort him at least a little. The earliest shorts didn't even have that silver lining but luckily, in the movie he was rewarded handsomely with a big 'ol plate of steak.

Sure, the whole thing indeed isn't that funny, and moments like this are a major reason I'm neutral to the show proper, but we might need to rewrite it to remove the complaining bits.

Edited by BigJimbo on Nov 1st 2020 at 10:42:00 AM

I'm trying to clean up Red Hood and the Outlaws since there are lots of misused tropes and Creator Bashing. I'm planning to cut these entries out:

• Eight Point Eight: The series' writer did not take well to criticism, even accusing a reviewer of bias during an interview, because the reviewer docked points for bad dialogue.
• Creator Worship: Scott Lobdell has a vocal fanbase that is absolutely notorious for defending his writing at every turn, from attacking critics to blaming anyone else for writing missteps to even defending his sexual harassment actions.
• He Panned It, Now He Sucks!:
  • The first issue received highly negative reviews, with a wide list of criticisms which included (but was not limited to) the one-dimensional portrayal of Starfire, prompting readers to cry "social justice warrior". To this day, anyone speaking negatively about the series is accused of being a social justice warrior who has not read the book. Scott Lobdell's own hostile response to the criticism didn't help matters, either. —> ROCEJ incarnate.
• Memetic Mutation:
  • Scott Lobdell's tendency to litter pages with dozens of exposition boxes describing in detail the characters' backgrounds, actions, and feelings in explicit detail is often mocked.
• Overshadowed by Controversy:
  • There is a lot of discussion regarding Scott Lobdell's history of sexual harassment, stalking, and racist comments, along with reports that senior staffers are told to keep him away from young female employees during company meetings. Adding further to the controversy are die-hard Red Hood fans who've harassed the women online for speaking out. The fact that Lobdell is friends with Editor-in-Chief Bob Harras (who is known for playing favorites and protecting sexual harassers) complicates this controversy further.—> Fans groan whenever he's announced as an editor for a comic book and his... issues isn't something to laugh at, but this isn't the page to discuss that. Rewriting this

Scott Lobdell is a really polarizing editor in DC Comics, and some tropers kept restoring the biased entries (There are lots of edit wars ever since the comic began if you check the history, and this isn't the only page with biased entries.) and even said not to "whitewash harassment" in the reason history. So I'm putting it here to get some unbiased suggestions, and hopefully avoid another edit war on the page.

Edited by cute_heart on Nov 2nd 2020 at 6:54:10 AM

If the harassment really is a well-known issue then it should stay, although I don't really follow the fandom as closely anymore to know how true that is.

Yes the harassment thing is quite well known.

Cut out the parts about it being "the only thing resembling comedy" because there's definitely other gags throughout. Also, Mindy being annoying isn't relevant to the entry. You can maybe replace it with careless.

Anecdotally speaking, I always enjoyed the Buttons and Mindy segments when I was a kid, so they must've been doing something right.

Edited by MurlocAggroB on Nov 2nd 2020 at 9:54:22 AM

Okay so the Overshadowed by Controversy stays, does it need a rewrite or is it fine that way? How about the other entries?

The tone of the entry as it's written is fairly neutral and straightforward, so since the answer to question of how well the information is known seems to be yes, I think that entry is OK.

I've said this before, but Extreme Sport Excuse Plot might need a look at because it sounds very negative.

It's in Administrivia.Tropes Needing TRS already. I suspect that the on-page examples have a high volume of complaining as well. Just send it to TRS under "Complaining".

Edited by LaundryPizza03 on Nov 2nd 2020 at 1:28:00 PM

I don't think "plot about extreme sports" is a bad idea, I like it. It's tropeworthy. I think just removing "excuse" from the plot would help make it better and less of a complaint magnet.

Edit: Oh, I remembered another one I brought up once. Recycled In Space is meant to be a ripoff that only has one big difference, but its name gets taken way too literally and the page image isn't even an example (it's from the same series, developer, and publisher so it's not a ripoff, plus Space adds actual gameplay differences such as modified abilities for some birds, boss battles, gravity, breakable crystals, water physics, new power-ups...) It just comes off as "THING I DON'T LIKE is similar to THING I LIKE so I'm going to insult THING I DON'T LIKE by accusing it of ripping off THING I LIKE even though there are actual differences!"

Edited by Grotadmorv on Nov 2nd 2020 at 11:51:50 AM

That would need a wick check.

I don’t really see Recycled In Space being used for complaining, but the state of the trope confuses me. Whenever I see it on the main wiki, it’s always as a pothole, not listed as a trope. The trope page itself confuses me even more, since it seems much more like a Just for Fun page, akin to JustForFun.X Meets Y.

Edited by jandn2014 on Nov 2nd 2020 at 4:37:56 AM

It wouldn't help because I'm not familiar with most works listed, so I can't judge how separate or similar they are. The examples aren't very descriptive in the first place.

Edited by Grotadmorv on Nov 2nd 2020 at 1:38:12 AM

But it'd let you judge if they're complaining. Bash-y examples are pretty easy to find regardless of if you know the work.

Right, it's about the tone rather than information on the work.

I think I can see a few questionable examples already. Here's a few from the Western Animation page:

• Apple & Onion is Sausage Party FOR KIDS! AND ABSOLUTELY NO HUMANS EATING THEM (despite the fact that they eat themselves) ! I think the only thing these have in common is that they have food as the main characters. If that was enough for a good comparison, then by extension, both of these are ripoffs of Aqua Teen Hunger Force, which otherwise has nothing to do with either of them.
  • Or Anpanman IN BRITAIN! No idea for this one.

• Blaze and the Monster Machines is Dora the Explorer WITH MONSTER TRUCKS! I want to point out that not every preschool show is like Dora the Explorer. Yes, this will be a recurring problem.

• Bluey is Peppa Pig AS A DOG AND IN AUSTRALIA! AND MUCH MORE DOWN TO EARTH! Peppa Pig barely even has a premise. And what does "much more down to earth" mean?

• Bubble Guppies is, since Season 5, The Backyardigans UNDERWATER! Could easily be mistaken for a Seasonal Rot shoehorn. Yes, Bubble Guppies did get a retool for Season 5, but I don't know if this is really enough to count.

• Camp Lazlo is Rocko's Modern Life AT A CAMPSITE! Both of these shows are made by the same guy. Other than that, there aren't actually that many similarities.

• ChalkZone is The Fairly OddParents! WITH CHALK DRAWINGS! Ironically, both were created by Frederator Studios and originated from Frederator's anthology series, Oh Yeah! Cartoons Same production company, and also, I don't remember ChalkZone adhering to a basic plot structure like Fairly OddParents does.

• Disenchantment is often described as Futurama AS A MEDIEVAL EUROPEAN FANTASY! Same creator, and they have different premises anyway.

• The Animated Adaptation of Edgar & Ellen is Ed, Edd n Eddy WITH A GOTH AESTHETIC! AND ONLY TWO KIDS WHOSE NAMES START WITH 'E'! As far as I remember, Edgar and Ellen is nothing like Ed, Edd n' Eddy.

• Family Guy is non-yellow The Simpsons IN RHODE ISLAND WITH CUTAWAY GAGS, MUCH MORE VULGARITY, AND BLACK COMEDY! I've seen this brought up multiple times, but the example lists four differences already. Also, they were made by the same company.

• Fish Hooks is SpongeBob SquarePants IN HIGH SCHOOL! Never saw a parallel between these two.

• The Get Along Gang is Arthur IN THE 1980s AND MORE DOWN TO EARTH! The Get-Along Gang came out before Arthur, so it doesn't count. These shows aren't very similar anyway.

• The Goode Family is King of the Hill BUT THE FAMILY ARE LIBERALS INSTEAD OF CONSERVATIVES! Same creator.

• Gravity Falls is Twin Peaks AS A DISNEY SHOW! They both deal with a supernatural town, but I think that's about it.
  • Alternatively, it's Eerie, Indiana AS A CARTOON! Probably?
  • Or, it could be Rick and Morty AS A DISNEY SHOW! (Despite Gravity Falls coming first. Don't think about it.) Aside from the obvious problem that they so generously gave away, these shows really have nothing in common.

• Jake And The Neverland Pirates is Dora the Explorer WITH PIRATES AND BETTER ANIMATION! Yeah, they both have antagonists that want to steal their things, but Captain Hook is generally more involved with the plots than Swiper is. And Neverland Pirates isn't based on 90s PC games like Dora was. Also, the "better animation" thing is really blatant complaining.

• The Jetsons is The Flintstones IN THE FUTURE! (A crossover cartoon, titled The Jetsons Meet the Flintstones, pretty much cements this notion.) Same creator; also Hanna-Barbera has its own folder on the page, but this wasn't in there for some reason.

• Let's Go Luna! is Rocko's Modern Life FOR PRESCHOOLERS! AND EDUCATIONAL! Same problem as the Camp Lazlo example above; These shows have nothing in common aside from having the same creator.

• Molly of Denali is Dora the Explorer IN ALASKA! AND DOWN TO EARTH! Again, not all preschool shows are like Dora The Explorer.

• My Life as a Teenage Robot is The Powerpuff Girls BUT THE MAIN CHARACTER IS A TEENAGE ROBOT! It doesn't help that Rob Renzetti used to work on The Powerpuff Girls early on. Yes, the latter did work on the former. Thanks for confirming your invalidity.
  • It's also Kim Possible but THE TEENAGE HERO IS A ROBOT, IS A SUPERHERO INSTEAD OF A SPY, NOT A CHEERLEADER, AND IS RETRO SCI-FI IN ART DECO! Too many differences to possibly count.

• Ni Hao, Kai-Lan is Dora the Explorer AS A CHINESE GIRL! This one also comes up a lot, but AFAIK Ni Hao Kai Lan is more of a slice-of-life show, while ''Dora the Explorer is more of the "adventure" type.

• Ready Jet Go! is Rick and Morty FOR PRESCHOOLERS, IS EDUCATIONAL, AND WITHOUT NIHILISM OR BLACK COMEDY! I don't think there's any actual similarities between these two, aside from the fact that they're both sci-fi comedies.

• Robot Chicken is KaBlam! FOR ADULTS! Robot Chicken is a sketch comedy, while KaBlam! is an anthology series. Their formats are wildly different.
  • While KaBlam! itself was Liquid Television FOR KIDS! This could be valid.

• Robotomy is Superjail!! FOR KIDS! AND WITH ROBOTS! It doesn't help that Robotomy was directed by the co-creator of Superjail. Another "same creator" example.

• Rocket Monkeys is The Angry Beavers IN SPACE WITH MONKEYS! Yeah, but Norbert and Daggett aren't complete idiots like Gus and Wally. Come to think of it, these shows really have nothing in common at all.

• Rubbadubbers is Toy Story WITH BATH TOYS! Rubbadubbers is a TV show. Toy Story is a movie. They both have wildly different plotlines.

• The Animated Adaptation of Scaredy Squirrel is SpongeBob SquarePants WITH FURRIES! Another one I've heard before, but I also believe the former's YMMV page pointed out that the characters aren't really that similar. Also, I'd like to report misuse of the word "furry".

• Tiny Toon Adventures is Looney Tunes AS AMAZING TECHNICOLOR KIDS! WITH THE ORIGINAL LOONEY TUNES APPEARING REGULARLY! Same franchise, not really an example.

• Titanic: The Legend Goes On is James Cameron's Titanic (1997), AS A DISNEYESQUE CARTOON WITH THE MAIN CHARACTERS' GENDERS REVERSED! AND A RAPPING DOG! There's a separate page for movies.

• Wander over Yonder is Looney Tunes with The Power of Friendship and The Power of Love IN SPACE! Didn't Wander Over Yonder have an ongoing plot? I don't think there's any similarities here other than "they're both cartoons", which isn't enough for this trope.

• Xavier Riddle and the Secret Museum is Clone High FOR KIDS! The only thing they have in common is that they both involve historical figures. Other than that, these shows should never even be mentioned in the same sentence.

I could be wrong on a lot of these, but I think there might be a problem here.

As written, there's no way this isn't basically a JFF page because little of this makes any real sense. Fully supporting a wick check and TRS effort.

Seconding. It's basically X Meets Y BUT WITH TRAITS INSTEAD OF A SECOND WORK.

Thirding. Not a fan of the format it's written in either but I could see it working as a Just for Fun page.

4th'd. It's amusing but not a trope.

Fifth-ing this motion. The other pages don't look much better. At the very least, it should've been made YMMV.

This is my first YMMV clean-up. Wish me luck!

This for Paper Mario: The Origami King by the way. I'd also like to note that I've played this game a total of 2 times, the first time was a blind playthrough, and the second was to unlock all of the tracks. (I thought getting the tracks in the game was Permanently Missable Content, turns out it wasn't)

Also, and I probably shouldn't say this, but most of these entries were written by Grotadmorv. The reason I bring this up is because when I asked if they were biased against this game, they said yes. Now, normally that wouldn't be a big deal, but the reason I asked them if they were biased in the first place was because of the entries they wrote.

Paper Mario the Origami King

• That One Boss: Let's check this out...
  • Bosses in general are a step up in difficulty compared to the previous entries, since not only do you have to solve a puzzle just to get an attack in, they also only reveal their weaknesses near the end of the fight or continue to battle otherwise. Scissors is the culmination of this design, since they spam an insta-kill attack that they can also delay with no warning and will unleash these extremely dangerous attacks at the beginning of the fight if you attack their sheath. While Scissors is in their insta-kill state, jumping on them, even with iron boots, will also instantly kill you, even though the game gives you no warning. Sure, you can freeze them with the Ice Vellumental^note which isn't available if you decide to destroy their cover earlier in the battle, giving you an even harder fight, but Scissors has a good chance to cut up those panels before you can even move. Better bring a 1-Up with you just in case… A bit of shoehorning here and there, but keep. He IS pretty hard.
  • Scuffle Island is a gauntlet of Paper Macho fights that must be won without the ability to use healing items (small hearts are dropped after the fights), and with enemies that deal higher damage. Of them, the Paratroopa, which comes fifth, is probably the most challenging, due to its sticker weak points only being able to be hit while the Paratroopa is actively diving toward you, requiring the perfect distance from it and good timing to hit it, with the consequence of being hit and taking high damage if you miss. Keep this one, seriously, FUCK that thing.
• That One Level: The Earth Vellumental Temple is much harder than it should be for being so early in the game. It's full of fire bars and spike pits that take away a lot of Mario's health, an instant death trap, and many moving pillars and platforms that require a good sense of timing. I can agree with this, although I don't remember an instant death trap...
• That One Puzzle: I think the person who made these entries listed almost all of the puzzles in the game...
  • The Water Vellumental Shrine has a 3x3 sliding puzzle, which can get on your nerves very easily. It's unclear what path you have to form, and you can rotate the pieces. Thankfully, you can pay for hints, with one outright solving the puzzle for you. I hate this puzzle, and I can imagine other people hating it as well. Keep.
  • The puzzle "a star lights your way" in the Temple of Shrooms. There is no indication on what to do exactly, the layout can indicate that you have to think more complicated than you actually have to (it resembles multiple stars more than a single big one), and unlike other complicated puzzles in the game, this one does not give you any hints if you fail repeatedly. It wasn't that hard for me, though I don't know how many people had a hard time with this puzzle, so don't touch this one for now.
  • Heart Island in the purple streamer area. The level consists of knocking down bushes with buttons on the back, and there's no way to know what a button will do until you press it. Some of these are jokes (like making the ship's horn go off), some are enemy ambushes, and one even resets the entire puzzle. You need good memory to know which order you're supposed to hit them in, and even how to reach some of them. I never really had trouble with this, but I can see why other people could have a hard time. Maybe keep.
  • How you find Diamond Island. It's easy to notice a pattern with the card suits, and since it looks like there should be something there, you might try looking for a way to raise the island or cause it to appear. If you ask Olivia, she says that you should find Diamond Island instead of giving a hint as to where it is. What you have to do is dive in a very specific spot to enter the island while it's underwater, and even if you figure it out, your position has to be exact or nothing will happen. It's never explained that you're allowed to dive in areas not marked with an X on the map, either. This should be cut, it's not that hard and it's not even considered a puzzle.
  • Shy Guys Finish Last's math and picture-fixing puzzles require intricate, quick knowledge of how the ring system works to be able to complete them accurately, with the timer only making things harder. The final boss's final phase is a difficult picture-solving puzzle combined with intermittent quick-time events, giving less time to think or look at the picture you're supposed to solve, and is also timed — run out of time, and it's a Game Over. Why are these two puzzles in one entry? Keep both, but split the two.
  • One of the final things you have to do in Bowser's Castle is arrange Buzzy Beetle statues so that they form a laser path to a switch on the wall. There's no help for this if you get stuck, it's hard to figure out what the correct solution is (certain statues only shoot out lasers when facing a specific direction), and it slows what's supposed to be an intense and climactic moment to a crawl. There's no way anyone had trouble with this puzzle; this is blatant shoehorning.
• That One Sidequest:
  • Collecting all the coins in Eddy River, which earns you a trophy that counts towards 100% completion, requires a lot of tedious trial and error, not to mention the constant risk of a Game Over due to debris and whirlpools. Special mention goes to the giant whirlpool that deals 3 out of your maximum 5 health and has coins along its edge. Keep. I hear a lot of people talking about how hard this river is.
  • A perfect game of Shy Guys Finish Last is required for 100% completion, including the Sudden Death round, and failure at any point means you have to try the whole quiz show again. Also keep. This one is another one people talk about.
  • To get the Speed Ring King trophy, you must clear 16 levels of Speed Rings within only 100 seconds, meaning an average of 6 seconds per puzzle. Unless you have quick muscle memory and fast reflexes, this challenge is almost impossible to complete without using a guide for reference. Definitely keep. I probably can't do this at all, and I can definitely see people struggling with this.
  • While finding the Not-Bottomless Holes is easy, the Toads and Collectible Treasures are less so. What's the most infuriating is the hidden ? Blocks, which are hidden in random places with almost no indication. While the block alert and radar do help, have fun desperately swinging your hammer and jumping around when the alert goes off. Cut the first sentence, everything else can be kept.
• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character: This is easily the most biggest entry on the entire page, and mostly because of shoehorning.
  • While Origami Peach is featured prominently in marketing, she only shows up at the beginning and end of the game and is never battled, as King Olly eventually unfolds her into a tapestry. As Peach does have some natural magic of her own in various games, it would have been nice to see her as Olly’s main dragon, as well as witness what she could do with her own abilities against Mario. This goes without mentioning her possession and battle in The Thousand-Year Door. Maybe keep, it IS a bit disappointing that we never fight Peach...
  • Many Mario enemies make their Paper Mario series debut in this game, such as Chargin' Chucks, Stingbys, Sumo Bros, Crowbers, and even Sidesteppers, but they only ever appear as Folded Soldiers. Not only does this mean you don't get to see these enemies in the standard Paper Mario artstyle for the first time, but the Folded Soldiers themselves have little-to-no dialogue throughout the game and pretty much zero personality to speak of. This also applies to some enemies that have previously appeared in the Paper Mario series, such as Pokeys, Scuttlebugs, and Snow Spikes. This is very nitpicky, I don't think anyone would actually complain about this. Cut.
  • The only new normal enemies in the game are two sizes of Cutout Soldiers, created by Scissors. However, they only appear briefly in Bowser's Castle, cutting down on their screentime. Considering all the Folded are a result of Stapler, another Legion member, and the Folded keep showing up even after Stapler's demise, it doesn't make sense why either the Cutout Soldiers don’t appear more or why other Legion members don't have unique minions. Kinda halfway with this one. On one hand, it would've been fun to fight more of those things, but on the other hand, only fighting them once kind of adds to their creepiness.
  • Captain T. Ode is built up as a legendary figure throughout the Yellow Streamer area, and even tags along with you for the Purple Streamer area. Despite this, he has very little involvement outside of providing Mario with the sea chart and manning the Super Marino. He always stays in the boat while Mario and Olivia explore the various islands, does not assist in any battles, and his entire backstory is divulged by a random Toad in the Shangri-Spa who the player isn't even required to talk to. This feels nitpicky.
  • Like Origami Peach, Bowser only appears at the beginning and end of the game. Once he gets unfolded, he can’t actually take part in normal battles anymore, shambling a lot of potential in the coolness of fighting alongside him at full strength. Finally, while he does participate in the final battle, it’s only for one gimmick phase, and is taken out easily before the next phase. This one can be kept, it is annoying that he never actually helps in the first or third phase.
  • While the interactions with Kamek and Bowser Jr. were well received and are usually considered one of the best parts about the Green Streamer, many agree that both were bogged down by the fact that partners are extremely limited in battle and leave after their story moments have been fulfilled, especially in Jr's case due to being strapped to Kamek's back for a good chunk of the arc. The fact that both are swiftly taken away for the rest of the chapter once you enter Bowser's Castle and only barely get enough spotlight in the final chapter to pull off a Go On Without Me moment doesn't help much either. People actually complained about that? I've never seen it.
  • The well-loved Audience mechanic returns from The Thousand-Year Door, but the audience is made entirely of generic Toads, despite the rest of the game showing much better NPC variety. Not even Luigi shows up, even though he did in TTYD and has a bigger role in this game than the last two. This seems like an attempt to compare Origami King to The Thousand-Year Door, which a lot of fans love to do.
  • Luigi travels with Mario on Mushroom Island, but you can't battle alongside him — he stays on the island if you leave it and there are no enemies on the island. It would've been nice to see him help in battle, since he was a playable character with his own unique abilities in Super. This should be merged with the above entry, if said entry even makes it.
  • Yoshis (be it the Yoshi or generic Yoshi NPCs) do not appear (and are only alluded to once) during the entire game, despite appearing in the previous game. This is nitpicky. Cut.
  • Lakitus are completely absent from this game, despite having appeared in the first four Paper Mario games and being alluded to in Color Splash. Also nitpicky. Cut.
  • Despite Shy Guys having a large focus in Color Splash, they only appear here in a cafe and Toad Town. Only red Shy Guys exist in the game, and the other colors are never seen despite many varieties of Snifits appearing. Again, nitpicky. Cut.
• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot: Mario never uses his own origami transformations from Thousand-Year Door, despite the fact they would be extremely fitting. And seeing as Olivia already uses origami transformations of her own and other characters are shown getting folded without suffering side effects, it would have been cool to see Mario use transformations of his own. This also seems like an attempt to compare Origami King to The Thousand-Year Door. Probably cut.

How did I do for my first YMMV clean-up?

Edited by Spidey on Nov 3rd 2020 at 4:58:02 AM

From Game of Thrones:

• Talisa's backstory. Talisa grew up in a wealthy, slave-owning Volantene family but when a slave saves her brother's life she realizes slavery is wrong and vows to never again live in a place that allowed slavery and to not waste her life dancing with nobles. So she becomes a nurse and goes to Westeros. We are clearly supposed to be moved by Talisa's selfless act. However, moving to Westeros was an empty gesture. In Volantis, Talisa could have used her wealth and status to help slaves and fight for their rights. Ironically, by dancing with nobles, something that Talisa clearly looks down on, she could've done more good than she ever did in Westeros. part of a recurring theme of the show runners looking down on pursuits viewed as "feminine"; see also Arya saying "most girls are stupid" and Brienne insulting Podrick by saying he "whines like a woman", when in the books both characters would have liked to also indulge in feminine skills if they were any good at them. Talisa also snottily upbraids Robb for daring to start a war that causes people to suffer, ignoring the fact that Joffrey kicked off the civil war by beheading his father under false charges, holds his sisters hostage, had all Robert's bastards (sans Gendry) murdered and has been wreaking far more havoc than Robb. She doesn't seem to have any alternate suggestions for Robb, nor does she acknowledge what kind of evil Robb is fighting against; instead she just bitches and snarks at him that a wounded soldier was "unlucky [you] were there."

The bolted part feels like stealth Unfortunate Implications without citations.