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Sandbox / Villain Has A Point Wick Check

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Wyldchyld's OP

Overview

Original post here: Trope Description Improvement Thread.

Villain Has a Point was originally about a villain who has a point about his motives, the hero, or the nature of the world they live in that the hero realises they can't disagree with, leaving the hero feeling anywhere from uncomfortable to despairing as a result.

However, over time, a few lines have been added to the trope description that has expanded the scope of the description to include villains having a good point against other villains, and non-villain antagonists and jerks having a good point against another character. It seems to now be interpreted as being about any instance of an antagonistic character making a good point about something in general.

This wick check is to see if the change in trope description has caused any change in what kind of examples are recorded.

At the time the wick check began there were 4059 wicks, resulting in 64 needing to be checked (resulting in 79 examples being checked across 64 wicks).

Summary

While there is a lot of potholing and sinkholing of this trope, there wasn't as much as I expected. While there is some misuse of the trope in terms of whether the villain side, the hero side, and/or the point being made are correct, it also wasn't the most significant form of misuse. By far the greatest misuse is coming from the audience believing a villain has made a point that they support in some manner, regardless of whether the narrative supports that. This misuse is similar to the problem that Both Sides Have a Point suffered and required a TRS to resolve (where the audience believed two sides of an argument had valid points, when the trope was supposed to be about a third party or the narrative observing both sides had valid points).

The three main areas of misuse can be summarised as follows (from most problematic to least):

  • Audience reaction (the audience likes a point the villain has made, regardless of whether the narrative supports that or the trope requirements have been met).
  • The scope of the trope (which is supposed to be a villain vs hero dialogue clash that leaves the hero shaken by the truth of the villain's words).
  • Potholes/Sinkholes.

Given that both Both Sides Have a Point and Villain Has a Point have had similar "audience reaction" issues, it's possible that Jerkass Has a Point and Dumbass Has a Point may need checking, too.

Numbers:

Total: 79 (100%)

  • Correct use: 9 (11%)
  • Misuse: 51 (65%)
    • of which, audience reaction: 38
  • ZCE/Unclear: 19 (24%)
  • Potholes: 29 (37%)

Wicks

    Correct Use 

    Misuse 

Incorrect Target

  • Dragon Ball: Cell
    • "The Reason You Suck" Speech:
      • After becoming perfect and slapping Vegeta around for a bit, Cell proceeds to openly mock Vegeta, pointing out how arrogant and foolish he was to help him absorb 18 and he never would have been able to reach his perfect form were it not for Vegeta's idiocy. And he's completely right. Villain on villain, and possible audience reaction sinkhole.
  • The Order of the Stick: Team Evil
    • Villain Has a Point: Towards another villain, but still. Any insult Xykon throws at Redcloak about their individual capabilities as villains is true. Xykon thinks of himself as nothing more than a monster, and as such gets things done. Redcloak insists on telling himself he's a hero, and as such will never get what he wants, because he won't let himself admit he already has it because it means admitting he's not. Xykon entry. Villain on villain misuse; also borders on Examples Are Not General because it maintains every insult is automatically an example.
  • The Cyanide & Happiness Show
    • Villain Has a Point: The villain of season three wasn't wrong when he said people were dumb enough to drink paint is an ad told them to. As thats exactly what happens in the Cruel Twist Ending of season three as humanity goes extinct after everybody literally starts drinking paint. There seems to be a narrative intent to show the audience the villain had a point, but no indication this is a villain vs hero exchange that disturbs the hero. Wrong target misuse.
  • 7FATES: CHAKHO
    • Villain Has a Point: When the humans in Zahu's prison cell ask him to eat Hosu instead, a guard Beom remarks on how eagerly selfish humans are to sell each other out. Villain makes a general point, rather than to challenge a hero's beliefs.
      Guard Beom: I knew your tribe was nothing but scum. Just look at how you conveniently sell one of your kind for your sake. I'm glad you're all the same as never. There's no need for me to feel guilty eating you up.

Incorrect Point

Incorrect target & point

    ZCE / Unclear 

Villain's target & impact isn't explained:

  • MonsterVerse - Other Humans
    • Viler New Villain: Compared to the eco-terrorists from Godzilla: King of the Monsters, Apex are also entirely willing to put millions of innocent people in mortal peril order to further their own ends, and they're also led by a dangerous and ultimately self-centered Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist. However, the eco-terrorists at least had a legitimate provocation concerning their pointers that the idiotic government and Wrong Genre Savvy military were about to try exterminating the Titans (which would likely spell more trouble than it's worth in the bigger picture), and Monarch wasn't doing enough to stop that from happening; and the eco-terrorists are presented as having a point in the end about the benefits of Titans returning to the world. Apex on the other hand have taken virtually nothing away from the events of Godzilla: King of the Monsters (which proved that humans can coexist with Titans if they learn to respect nature more), starting an unprovoked and costly war with Godzilla for entirely impractical and petty ambition, and the film doesn't present them as having any legitimate points in their defensive arguments — they're just a speciesist Evil Reactionary, driven by petty, pointless, overbloated pride, and the world would still be in a better place if they'd never acted. Apex Cybernetics; this is a corporation, not a character. The pothole is referencing a villain having a point, which is half the trope, but there's no context to know if any heroes were impacted by the eco-terrorists having a point, given that the entry is comparing them to Apex. Without that context, it's just "villain has a point".
  • Rebellion and Revolution
  • Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. S3 E14 "Watchdogs"
    • Villain Has a Point: Blake brings up several of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s and the Avengers' mistakes, which have cost the world much in property damage and lives lost. Villain makes a point misuse; no indication of any hero reaction to the point.
  • X-Men Film Series: Magneto
    • Villain Has a Point: Magneto believes humans and mutants can never co-exist and fears the crimes of the Holocaust will be repeated against mutants one day. The Bad Future in Days of Future Past shows he's absolutely right; humans have created the Sentinels to hunt down and exterminate mutants, who are being herded into camps to be killed or experimented on en masse. Far before then, however, in First Class the U.S. and Soviet fleets open fire on the assembled mutants at Cuba simply because they are mutants, making no distinction between the ones that just fought to save them and the ones that were trying to kill them. Even when mutants do things right by humans (Mystique saving President Nixon in Days of Future Past), humans still screw them over, as shown in Logan when the mutants are on the verge of extinction again. Villain has a point, but there's no indication that it's being directed at a hero who is left disturbed by this this. It seems to be more of a narrative point that's being made to the audience instead of to a hero.
  • Those Who Hunt the Night
    • Villain Has a Point: In Pale Guardians, the Master Vampire of London, talking to a human, sneers contemptuously at the human's distaste for his centuries of kills, pointing out that in the war that is raging in Europe, human governments are slaughtering far more than all the vampires of Europe ever could have. Villain makes a point, but it doesn't seem to be to a hero and there's no reference to how the point was received.
  • Helluva Boss S1E1 "Murder Family"
    • Villain Has a Point: Millie and Loona points out that no human is completely innocent, and that they all have some dark secrets to hide. Millie reminds Moxxie that, as assassins, it's not their place to delve into other people's personal lives, nor determining if a target's assassination is truly justified. In in other words: Villain has a point misuse; no evidence of valid hero reaction in entry.
      Millie: Guilty and innocent aren’t our business, Mox. Killing who we’re paid to is... Our... Business.
  • Miraculous Ladybug S03E02 "Animaestro"
    • Villain Has a Point: When Animaestro snaps at Ladybug for judging his film without actually seeing it, Cat Noir tells her that he has a point. Villain has a point; but no attempt to define exactly what the hero's reaction is, and whether that reaction fits the trope.
  • The Dark Crystal: Age of Resistance S1E4: "The First Thing I Remember is Fire"
    • Villain Has a Point: The Skeksis are eager to drain the essence of every last Gelfling across Thra, yet the Chamberlain and the Scientist (of all Skeksis!) points out that they should take only what they need to survive. No indication this is spoken to heroes or that the heroes find themselves agreeing.
  • Codename Kids Next Door S 6 E 1 Operation SAFETY
    • Villain Has a Point: While the Safety Bots' way of protecting kids, including getting rid of adults, is extreme, Master Safety Bot is correct about how if adults don't care about the safety of children then it makes them a danger to kids, especially if they are only interested in children running "like monkeys with their butts on fire." Can't find any indication this is about a villain addressing a hero, or the impact on said hero as a result. It's therefore just "villain has a point" misuse.

Villain targets hero, but impact isn't explained:

  • Evil Feels Good
    • Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2012):
      • When discussing his and Karai's first encounter with April, Leo admits he thinks Karai had a point: earlier that same episode, the other Turtles (Raphael in particular) kept second-guessing his leadership when all he was trying to do was keep them safe when they went into action. Meanwhile, Karai was just... fun. The parent entry seems to indicate Karai is a For the Evulz villain motivated by having fun, and that Leo doesn't approve; the point being made here is never stated, and can't be accurately guessed from the parent entry. Placed in partial context ZCE category to be on the safe side.
  • Akame Ga Kill Wild Hunt
    • Villain Has a Point: Leone concedes that Dorothea had a point when she said the average human lifespan is too short. Dorothea is a villain, and it states what the point is, but it doesn't state the significance of the point or the impact it has on the hero. It's therefore just "villain has a point".
  • Gotham S3 E1 “Better to Reign in Hell...”
    • Villain Has a Point: Penguin publicly calls out the GCPD for doing so little to deal with Fish and the other monsters, and keeping the city in the dark about it. No sign that the hero is impacted by what Penguin says. So, it's just villain has a point misuse.
  • The Walking Dead S09 E14 "Scars"
    • Villain Has a Point: Negan explains to Michonne that Judith might be more willing to speak to her if she was a bit more transparent with her. Villain has a point misuse; no indication that it's disturbingly correct information about villain motives, how the world works, etc.,

Nothing is explained/Entry is generalised/Unclear:

  • Swiper, No Swiping!
  • Spider-Man: Supporting Characters
    • Villain Has a Point: She maintains that Otto's policy of leaving street-crime to the normal cops was more efficient than Peter's policy of trying to do everything himself. Anna Maria Marconi entry. Seems to be audience reaction, but there's poor context to know if she's saying this to a hero and what effect on the hero it has. I also can't tell from her character sheet whether she's really a villain or not, as she seems to be troped as a villain's Morality Pet.
  • Toy Story - Lotso
  • Coeur Al'Aran
    • Adaptational Heroism: Depending on the work, several villains tend to be at least slightly more heroic than their canon counterparts.
      • Starting after Professor Arc, Adam Taurus is presented as an actual Well-Intentioned Extremist (who sometimes also happens to be a toxic person) with legitimate arguments as opposed to a mass murderer only out for himself like he was in canon. Canon also implies that he executes deserters, which is not the case in Coeur's works, and his obsession with Blake is still present but never reaches the point of reducing his character to a homicidal ex-boyfriend. ZCE; it's not clear what these "legitimate arguments" actually are or whether they're being presented to heroes that are impacted by them or just something the audience concludes.
    • Villain Has a Point: In many of his works, the villains are given stronger motives for their actions beyond For the Evulz. Many works feature Adam Taurus making points the ostensible hero characters can't really dispute. Partial context; states the heroes can't dispute the points, but doesn't explain what the actual points are. But generalises everything.
  • Muppet Treasure Island
    • Villain Has a Point: Jim has no response when Long John asks him if he thinks Smollet and Trelawney will share the treasure with the crew. Long John recalls that they are Flint's former crew, who "shed our blood" for him, so they deserve the treasure. Yeah they're evil, but he's not wrong. Unsure whether this is correct or audience reaction.

    Other Misuse 

Different or Averted Trope:

  • Codex Equus Coltalia
    • False Utopia: Overmare wants to Take Over the World because she wants and genuinely believes the world to be better off with her in charge, and on the surface the Overdom under her seemed to show that she may have a point. Of course, as Bright Eyes found out, it involved meticulous management through questionable means that Overmare believes is necessary but few would considered justifiable. People are content and live in comfort, but the readers are left wondering if they are truly happy with the world's greatest supervillain in charge of their lives, and they are most certainly not free. How truly utopian or dystopian the Overdom really is is a matter of much debate in-universe between her supporters and detracters. The Villain Has a Point pothole seems to be Audience Reaction misuse.
    • Villain Has a Point:
      • Overmare wanted to Take Over the World because she believes the new order she would establish would had been better suited to run it than leaving it to the short-sighted, small-minded and simply-substandard devices of common Ponykind. From the sheer amount of conflicts, crises and calamities Tellus went through the 'Great Wars Era' (due in large part due to the failings of Ponykind), as well as how well-ran her Overdom is under her rule (stated to be completely free of poverty, famine, disease, crime and strife), readers might be inclined to think that the world really would had been better off had she won. Of course, her willingness to use extreme, questionable means to achieve this utopia (Totalitarian-levels of control, Disproportionate Retribution for dissent and transgressions, among other things) still makes her a villain that must be stopped, because the end result would likely still be bad in its own way. Audience Reaction misuse.
      • Deconstructed in that it's pointed out several times her villainous actions are actually preventing her from actually making the world the utopia she could make it: she and Silversmith would be able to make a true, lasting utopia if she's reform and work with him, rather than the shortlived false utopias she's made that ultimately are overthrown due to her villainous means of maintaining them. Given that the first bullet point is audience reaction, this isn't a deconstruction; what it really seems to be saying is that the trope was never in play and the above references to the trope are therefore incorrect.
  • Dragon Ball: Cell
    Cell: Thank you Goku I will take this bean without hesitation! Your overconfidence has betrayed you! You'll regret this deed soon enough!
  • The Magic Flute
    • Adaptational Diversity: Many of Sarastro’s people, including the two priests (here officers), are given a Race Lift, and there are cheerful interracial couples shown in the flute-playing scene. This way, while Monostatos still complains he is denied love because of his race, it’s made clear he is just making excuses for himself rather than actually telling the truth about the setting's racism. Sinkhole: Trope appears to not be in play.

Audience believes Villain Makes A Good Point:

  • Saint Seiya: Knights of the Zodiac:
    • Villain Has a Point: Given what we've seen in plenty Saint Seiya productions, Vander is right about humanity constantly being at the whims of Jerkass Gods and that they could be better off without them. The issue here is that he's willing to murder a girl who he once saw as a daughter to save the world. Who is also, coincidentally, logically the one most likely to save the world, due to being the incarnation of the goddess who has done so habitually. And is the only non-Jerkass God in the setting. This is written as an audience reaction or YMMV, which is misuse.
  • Bates Motel: White Pine Bay
    • Villain Has a Point: (Charles Hogan)
      • He questions why Caleb was Easily Forgiven by his rape victim. Seems to be audience reaction or YMMV misuse.
      • When he reencounters Caleb again at a bar, he correctly points out how Caleb was a terrible person who ruined the lives of others, bringing up how he got crippled for life by him and Norma's rape. Audience Reaction / YMMV misuse.
  • Batman: Under the Red Hood
    • Villain Has a Point: He calls out Batman for not killing Joker, enabling the crazed clown to continue murdering who knows how many victims but also personally hurt their family. When he calls out the fallacy of Batman's He Who Fights Monsters argument, that it's just a one-time exception against the one villain who's completely irredeemable and deserving of it, Batman can only reply with a weak "...I can't." Entry is about Red Hood. The same page tropes the scene under Even Evil Has Standards with an audience reaction parabomb sinkholing Jerkass Has a Point. The main work page lists the scene under What the Hell, Hero? After watching the scene online, I've put this under Audience Reaction / YMMV misuse. The Lame Comeback pothole looks to be Audience Reaction because it doesn't reflect the scene; while Batman does reveal that he doesn't kill Joker because it would turn him to evil, he never wavers in his conviction that killing Joker is wrong and never accepts Red Hood's point.
  • Black Clover: Patry
    • Villain Has a Point: (Licht)
      • Although his way of solving it is hypocritical, he is correct in that the Clover Kingdom has many distortions in which people are discriminated against at birth by their magic and social class. Looks like Audience reaction misuse.
      • He also calls out his human members for their Moral Myopia in thinking they get the moral high ground over the Clover Kingdom just because they serve under him. He's being hypocritical and just as myopic as they are but he's not wrong considering they commit all manner of horrid acts just because of their own pettiness or sadism and still think they're in the right. Looks like Audience reaction misuse.
  • Eddsworld
    • Villain Has a Point: In his first appearance, his grievances against Edd (didn't thank his milkman for his Christmas card), Tom (ate a pie marked "do not eat"), and Matt (stepped on a bug) are very petty; his against Tord (used real guns in a game of paintball) is not. Zanta Claws entry. Audience Reaction misuse.
  • Fairy Tail – Zeref
  • Fullmetal Alchemist: Others
    • Villain Has a Point: His actions are awful no matter how you spin it, but Tucker technically isn't wrong when he says that human experimentation is a step to progressnote , considering how it's later revealed a Philosopher's Stone is powered by Human Sacrifices, Amestris itself was founded on the loss of countless lives, its Military uses Alchemy to wage war and perform many more bizarre biological experiments in secret laboratories, Amestris is ruled by twisted Homunculi who view humanity as a natural resource, and automail mechanics require an understanding of human anatomy and neurology. It's even implied he was kept onboard for so long because of the lengths he took to create talking chimeras. Of course, given that Tucker didn't know other Alchemists had already found a way to create human/animal chimeras in much healthier condition by the time of his present assessment, it's even less likely that he knew about any of Amestris' history or the Military's secret operations, and was merely trying to come up with an excuse for his vile actions. Shou Tucker entry. Audience reaction misuse.
  • God of War Series – Other Characters
    • Moral Myopia: Despite having a legitimate point when it comes to Freya's victim complex, Gná ignores the genuine wrongs that Odin has done to his ex-wife and her fellow Valkyries, and despite this ill treatment, she considers everyone else the traitor for opposing Odin, when in reality, it's Gná who has betrayed her queen and fellow Valkyries by willingly remaining in Odin's service. Gná entry. Audience reaction sinkhole.
    • Villain Has a Point: Her journal reveals that her animosity towards Freya is partly due to her playing the victim in the tragedies in her life. Seems to be audience reaction.
      • Kratos's murder of her son? Baldur was already hellbent on killing her due to her overprotectiveness and the curse she put on him. This seems a bit natterific and audience reaction.
  • I'm Standing on a Million Lives
    • Villain Has a Point: Subverted. True, she had no obligation to accept the pact from the pleading natives of Jiffon Island offering Jiffon Buffalo in exchange for not eating humans, but even though she accepted the pact, she did absolutely nothing to enforce it, letting her children kill and eat humans while the pact was in effect, and her tribe did absolutely nothing to try and feed themselves by other means, not hunting, fishing, and gathering, not animal husbandry, and certainly not agriculture. Then when the humans are cornered and seek out mercenaries to deal with her unruly "children," she has the gall to call humans "foolish." She and her tribe also do absolutely nothing in return for the food the humans provide them, despite being more than capable. Orc Queen entry. Audience reaction and subversion misuse; also seems to be complaining misuse.
  • MonsterVerse - Other Humans
    • Villain Has a Point: Downplayed; Ren's beliefs regarding his father, humanity and the Titans are largely delusional and fictitious, but he does have a right to be angry with his father for neglecting him and never making any real effort to bond with him. After all, any child would be upset if their parent neglected them, no matter the reason. Audience reaction.
  • Spectre
    • Villain Has a Point: During his Motive Rant, he points out the failure of elected officials who don't get things done in time or fall back on their promises. Max Denbigh entry. Audience reaction.
  • The Lion King (2019)
    • Villain Has a Point: Though he was doing it for his own nefarious purposes, Scar wasn't wrong in telling Simba to stay out of the Elephant Graveyard because of how dangerous the place was. Scar was explicitly counting on Simba being reckless enough to prove his bravery by going there. Audience reaction misuse, and misuse in general.
  • The Order of the Stick: Team Evil
    • Humans Are the Real Monsters: To goblins, all the 'proper' races (i.e., humans, eves, gnomes, halflings, orcs, and others) are the real monsters. And in fairness to Redcloak, from what the reader has been shown, to those races, goblinoid lives are cheaper than sunlight. Sinkhole: Redcloak entry. Audience reaction misuse.
    • Villain Has a Point: When you look at the slaughter of the goblinoid peoples, whom the gods literally made to be killed to give their followers XP, The Plan looks a lot more reasonable. Durkon directly acknowledges this, especially after learning the goblins' plight was caused less by malice and more by neglect. In Durkon's own words, "Redcloak, 'e's right aboot wha's wrong, but wrong about how ta make it right." Redcloak entry. Audience reaction (Redcloak's right, so the plan looks reasonable). The in-universe quote being used to justify the entry is saying that Redcloak was right, but the plan was wrong. So, this is just "villain has a point" misuse.
    • Well-Intentioned Extremist: Zig-Zagged. Xykon mocks him for his need of a justification for his acts, something that Xykon himself would never bother with. As the story nears its conclusion in the final arc, his reasoning and excuses behind The Plan become flimsier and less feasible, blurring this into Not-So-Well-Intentioned Extremist. He's too stuck with the Sunk Cost Fallacy and too prideful to admit that it's his fault that a lot of goblins, including his own brother, died. As such, he's both remarkably sympathetic and remarkably despicable at the same time. Adding to it, it's also worth noting that Durkon ends up agreeing that goblins are being treated unfairly, as does Roy when it's pointed out to him, but that still doesn't justify what he's done and he's clearly in the wrong. Sinkhole: Redcloak entry. Entry makes it clear that no-one's beliefs are impacted by the fact Redcloak has a point.
  • Toy Story - Lotso
    • Villain Has a Point:
      • When Ken (while he's still part of Lotso's gang) suggests saving Barbie from the dumpster, Lotso points out that "there are thousands of Barbies just the same", and Ken replies "not like her". But Ken and Barbie have completely stereotypical personalities, fell in love at first sight with no consideration of them, and that particular Barbie has tied up Ken and interrogated him. These make it pretty plain that Lotso is actually right and Ken is just following his script as a toy (and, um, maybe also has some odd tastes) Audience reaction.
      • Be honest, if you were a toy in the Sunnyside Daycare Caterpillar Room you'd probably hate kids too, and it is extremely likely Lotso has spent time in there given how understandably avoidant of it he is. Audience reaction.
  • Hellboy II: The Golden Army
  • Muppet Treasure Island
    • Villain Has a Point: And he's perfectly correct when he points out that to the Spanish, Sir Francis Drake is an evil villain, while to the British, he's a hero. Audience reaction.
  • Shanghai Noon
  • Lady and the Tramp
    • Fridge Brilliance: "Aunt Sarah believing Lady to be responsible for the mess downstairs that the cats caused. Besides their Wounded Gazelle Gambit, she had good reason to believe it was Lady. The main one being that Siamese cats don't behave like that in real life." Sinkhole; Audience reaction.
  • What If…? (2021)
    • If T'Challa could redeem Thanos in this universe, how come he couldn't do the same in Avengers: Infinity War or convince Killmonger to give up his mad plans in his own movie?
      • Simple. The Sacred Timeline T'Challa was never able to leave beyond Wakanda's borders until he was a grown man, and thus lacked much of the wisdom that Star Lord T'Challa had from seeing an entire universe and the wide variety of cultures and people within it. Both T'Challa's are good men—amongst the most noble of heroes in any timeline in fact—but in the main MCU, T'Challa was The Stoic thanks to not being able to live out his dream of exploration, and thus a little more closed minded (remember, it was Killmonger who got him thinking that his points aren't entirely incorrect, not the other way around, not to mention it took the fracturing of the Avengers itself to get him to see beyond his desires of revenge) until his respective adventures helped him to see things better. As Star Lord, T'Challa was taken to places he never could have dreamed of, and not burdened with the innumerable tragedies his main counterpart suffered, was able to find ways to inspire others to be better. Audience reaction.
  • Legends of Tomorrow S4 E14 "Nip / Stuck"
    • Villain Has a Point: Neron pointedly asks Constantine if everyone in hell truly deserves to be there. While Neron himself and Tabitha certainly do, he's not wrong that neither Ray nor Astra deserve the place (although his point is undermined by the fact that Neron is the reason that Ray's in hell to begin with). The entry pretty much admits it's shoehorning. So, this is just audience reaction, and talking itself out of even being that.
  • Star Trek Deep Space Nine S 05 E 18 Business As Usual
    • Villain Has a Point:
      • Hagath sends Quark's pay directly to his creditors to pay off his debts, as he doesn't want Quark to act irresponsible with his profits and not pay back his debtors, but he also recognizes the importance of his business partner not having that pressure on him anymore. Given the general behavior of Ferengi and the business Hagath is in, making sure Quark has no obligations to anyone else and keeping control of his money for the time being are good ideas. Audience reaction.
      • Hagath and Gaila have one by proxy when Kira begrudgingly admits that weapons dealers like them made it possible for the Bajorans (and other oppressed groups) to fight back against tyranny. Shoehorning; There's no example of a villain challenging the hero with the truth and disturbing the hero by doing so.
  • Star Trek Enterprise S 03 E 21 E Squared
    • Villain Has a Point: Mallora reasonably points out that the humans could have manufactured their "evidence." Audience reaction; villain has a point misuse.
  • Star Trek: Lower Decks S3E07 "A Mathematically Perfect Redemption"
  • Star vs. the Forces of Evil S4 E37 "Cleaved"
    • Villain Has a Point: While Mina's analogy of "good ideas" is clumsy to say the least, she's sadly on the nose about how racism isn't easy to snuff out. Audience reaction.
  • Stargirl (2020) S1E13 "Stars and S.T.R.I.P.E. Part Two"
    • Villainous Breakdown: Sinkhole in the dialogue, which makes it clear the character isn't making a valid point. It's also not clear whether it's a villain vs villain or a villain vs hero debate. Audience reaction.
      • Jordan becomes increasingly unhinged throughout the episode as the ISA's plans crumble and a number of them are killed or incapacitated, to the point where by the episode's climax he's a raving lunatic trying to cling to what is now an impossible goal.
      Jordan: Over half a million people die from cancer every year, Barbara. Every year. Now what if I told you we take half a million lives right now, but I could cure cancer. Forever. What would you do?
      Barbara: ... No one was going to die because of the way people think—
      Jordan: Yeah, but they do! My wife died because of the way people think, because of greed, and politics, but I can change that! And it's not too late. It's not. I can still save America, Barbara. It doesn't have to be today, but I can do it, and, and... And you can help. And Courtney could. And I can protect her from the others, I can. I can keep her safe, and we could go somewhere. We could go somewhere else and we can start again. We could start anew.
      Barbara: You're out of your damn mind. Your wife... would be horrified to see the kind of person you've become.
      Jordan: You didn't know my wife!
  • Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 2003 S 4 E 19 Insane In The Membrane
    • Villain Has a Point: Ignoring the fact that he was breaking the law and that he tried to kill April first, Stockman is right in a sense: had she not brought the Turtles back to his lab, his scheme never would've been foiled, he never would've been punished by the Shredder, and he wouldn't have started losing body parts. "Right in a sense" is weasel words; Audience reaction misuse.
  • Tropes N to Z
    • Ungrateful Bastard: Rigby, after being saved by his friends from Doug 'The Doppelganger' Sheblowski, manages to be an Ungrateful Bastard at ''Temp Check" Sinkhole: Audience reaction misuse.
    Doug: ...A guy like me, doesn’t have a lot to be thankful, but you, you got friends, a job, a nice work and a warm bed. You’ve got a good thing going here, never forget that.
    Rigby: What a windbag!, I thought he’d never shut up. I can’t believe you guys thought he was me. You must feel like idiots, right?
  • The Lunar Domain
    • Villainous Legacy: Though Princess Celestia's actions occurred hundreds of years prior to the time we see The Lunar Domain, they still impact and affect events occurring in 3028.
      • Cycle of Revenge: Most predominantly, perhaps, is Twilight Sparkle's desire to exact revenge for the murder of Celestia, which she believes Luna to be responsible not in the way that she had any involvement, but rather, it was because of Luna's actions that the circumstances that allowed for Celestia's murder to happen occurred. She does have a point. Audience reaction.
  • Yakuza: The Tojo Clan
    • Villain Has a Point: However, Shimano's motives are not purely selfish; he is also keen on ensuring that Dojima doesn't get his hands on the lot (in the end, neither Dojima nor Shimano get it). Shimano fears that the clan would fall apart if someone like Dojima secured the lot and subsequently became the next chairman. This is not without basis, as Tachibana himself makes similar remarks during his meeting with Nihara, commenting that men like Dojima are better subordinates than leaders, and Dojima is shown to be a very reprehensible person in the series. Audience reaction. Villain makes a point misuse.
  • El Cid (2020)
  • Regular Show: The Movie
    • Villain Has a Point: Ross is a total crazo by his own admission but he is completely right that Rigby ruined an important game for the team he was coaching and also ultimately got him fired. Audience reaction.
  • Marvel Cinematic Universe TV Shows
  • Droopy

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