The Other Troper
That's taking the opening line too literally, as most of the other Rule of Index tropes would have to get trimmed. Explosions aren't unrealistic, but Stuff Blowing Up is still listed under Rule of Cool.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
I agree - we must trim the other rule pages severely as well. Stuff Blowing Up may be "cool," but it is not Rule of Cool. Just a handful of the tropes listed on Rule of Cool should be there. As for Rule of Cute, we probably have to scrap it altogether and replace it with an index called Cute Tropes.
Stuff Blowing Up is stuff blowing up just because it's cool even if it's not realistic. It's Rule of Cool. I do agree with the majority of this trimming though.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
If that's what Stuff Blowing Up is, then yes, it belongs on Rule of Cool. Some other tropes there, however, are just Cool And X. One might argue that many of them aren't even tropes, let alone Rule of Cool (I'm told that Cool Chair began as "improbably cool chair," a chair running on Rule of Cool, but it degenerated into "chair that is cool."
The Other Troper
The thing is, one first has to get others to agree to limit those tropes to only that.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
I don't think we'll need to argue over it too hard. The tropes have definitions, and misinterpretations are misuse.
But let's start with Rule of Sexy. I think this will be the easiest because we already have so many sex tropes and indexes that correctly cover what people mistakenly think Rule of Sexy does. I can't imagine anyone arguing that we need an index of all sexy things, or that we're inadequately categorizing Seashell Bra by only filing it under Costume Tropes, Fanservice Costumes, Swimsuit Index, and Keep Abreast Of This Index.
The Other Troper
The point is a lot of these are commonly used because they are sexy. Now Seashell Bra might not fit under that, but Sexy Santa Dress does. Heck, even though it's not physically impossible, the fact that it's so common in this kind of holiday is because of this trope.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Not "because of this trope" — because it's sexy. And this trope isn't just "done to be sexy."
We do have a trope with the definition "any element of a story that serves to titillate the reader's erotic or obsessional sensibilities," but we no longer collect examples of that. We also have a trope about showering viewers with sexy costuming. And we have an entire spinoff index for sexy costumes. Sexy Santa Dress is on that index.
The Other Troper
""any element of a story that serves to titillate the reader's erotic or obsessional sensibilities,"
No, that is not what FF means. It more refers to accidental or incidental stuff, not purposeful stuff. Rule of Sexy is deliberately including something, but not the actual reaction. It's the same reason Rule of Cool has a caveat about elements only working if people find them cool.
"We also have a trope about showering viewers with sexy costuming."
No, Fanservice is not limited to costuming. Even Stripperiffic is only one type of specific costuming. And I also noticed you proposed taking that trope of the list, even though the very point of that trope makes it something unrealistic.
"And we have an entire spinoff index for sexy costumes."
Wait. You claimed fanservice already covered that. Which is it?
"Sexy Santa Dress is on that"
And tropes often get on multiple indexes if they fit on both. The trope misunderstandings you've shown aren't making a good case against this being on both.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
You're right - Stripperiffic does belong on the Rule of Sexy index. I've now moved it in my list, and we should discuss the other tropes similarly.
All the fanservice tropes concern costuming. Fanservice Costumes lists specific costumes. For instance, Panty Shot is related to costuming, but it's not a costume. Sexy Santa Dress is. We had a single fanservice index till recently; we split it due to length.
edited 4th Feb '12 1:27:16 AM by Routerie
There are a few on that list I still think belongs.
- Form-Fitting Wardrobe: This is when clothes fit closer than they would realistically.
- Most Common Superpower: It doesn't make much sense, other than perhaps as a Boobs Of Steel type-trope.
- Naughty Tentacles: It doesn't really make sense for various reasons. If it wasn't for the sexy, I think people would just go "Bwuh?"
- Spy Catsuit: There's one thing about having tight clothes for ease of movement, but this trope generally about having the justification as a handwave to have someone in a tight and sexy costume. A greater part of the examples aren't as practical as they claim, if placed in real life. The main reason it works is because it looks sexy and cool. This is the main difference between this and Sensual Spandex, which is mainly about practicality.
- Dangerously Short Skirt: This one depends entirely on if the girl in question minds flashing her panties, so it could go either way.
edited 4th Feb '12 6:18:43 AM by Feather7603
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
I agree with Form-Fitting Wardrobe. And Spy Catsuit, which has "impossibly tight" as part of its criteria.
With Dangerously Short Skirt, I'm not sure if realism has much to do with the trope. It seems to be less about "miniskirts though they're unrealistic" as "miniskirts during action sequences." The description even has a bit on how this is more realistic than a longer skirt (though other realistic alternatives exist too).
I'm even less sure about Most Common Superpower. Why shouldn't a superhero have large breasts? The disbelief-testing part of it would be all the other superpowers. If the character does indeed have superpowers, then a Heroic Build, luscious hair and nice breasts (which some non-super people have too) seems hardly unlikely.
And Naughty Tentacles seems to be on a separate level. You can't really question whether it breaks willing suspension of disbelief. It's flat-out impossible. If you buy it, you don't accept it as part of reality because it's sexy but as part of fantasy because fantasy includes the impossible.
edited 4th Feb '12 6:49:41 AM by Routerie
Dangerously Short Skirt: Short skirts in themselves aren't unrealistic. They're actually very practical, especially while fighting. The thing is that if a character who's expecting to get into fights and worry about panty shots, she would never be wearing that. If it's someone who doesn't care, it's not this index. Hence the "could go either way" part.
Most Common Superpower: The thing that breaks suspension of disbelief is the most common part. They all have it. Granted, all the men have their body type as well. You could add that very few of them actually wear suits that would support the breasts enough for what they do.
Naughty Tentacles: Tentacles is the fantasy part. Naughty is where Rule of Sexy comes into play. To me, they're very distinct reasons for Willing Suspension of Disbelief, and this trope wouldn't work without both. If anything, Rule of Sexy makes more sense as a "justification".
edited 4th Feb '12 7:36:20 AM by Feather7603
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
The Other Troper
This is a lot of the problem. The OP is applying the definition too tightly when other tropes actually fit this.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
I would say the bigger problem is that most tropers are just ignoring the definition in favour of "Anything sexy" causing severe trope decay and making the index functionally useless.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
The Other Troper
I just realized that the general Rule of Index means "You can ignore the Fridge Logic". If fridge logic can be applied to one of these and we can go "It doesn't matter. It's sexy.", then it fits.
Why is a Sexy Santa Dress worn at a time which is supposed to be about love, charity, and being with your family? It doesn't matter. It's sexy.
How practical is a Fur Bikini as an outfit anyway, and why would tribal people even make such outfits? It doesn't matter. It's sexy.
How come women in superhero comics have C cups as their minimum size (unless a girl is in her teens)? It doesn't matter. It's sexy.
As for the physically impossible ones, it doesn't matter. They're sexy.
If we can't apply fridge logic to these, then they don't fit.
Of course we should also note in the description that some people can find these outright demeaning (for men and women), and the fridge logic only makes it worse.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.That's a very good point.
Are there any tropes that doesn't fit the list with that in mind?
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
The Other Troper
We just look at each trope and see what fridge logic comes up.
This really is looking at them case-by-case.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
I think there are definitely ones that can be safely removed. Sexy Back for one. I don't see how it breaks suspension of disbelief to only film someone from the back when they're topless.
edited 4th Feb '12 10:51:48 AM by shimaspawn
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
The Other Troper
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I think that came from those mistaking the definition (which does mean I agree with removing it; I was just guessing why it was put there). Speaking of which, we should get on renaming that in its own thread.
edited 4th Feb '12 11:13:13 AM by DragonQuestZ
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Can't you apply Fridge Logic to just about any trope if you try hard enough?
The Other Troper
But then a lot of us here would know that someone is stretching.
Fridge Logic isn't even a type of logic or contradiction; it just specifies the time when the issue occurs to you - sometime after first viewing, such as when you're poking through the fridge. And Captain Pat says, Fridge Logic can apply to literally anything. Rule of Sexy, however, only concerns willing suspension of disbelief.
Let's return to Sexy Santa Dress. Seeing a character wearing one shouldn't at all test your willing suspension of disbelief. Sexy Santa Dresses actually exist in real life! People wear sexy clothing to be sexy - nothing unrealistic there. You may have interesting observations on how we sexualize non-sexual ideas (we have a trope for that, Sexy Santa Dress is a subtrope), but a character wearing the costume is still perfectly realistic.
Now, if someone wears a Sexy Santa Dress while exploring the arctic, and we just accept that, that's absolutely Rule of Sexy. And if we had a trope for people wearing sexy, skimpy clothing that doesn't suit the climate, that would belong on the Rule of Sexy index.
Now let's take a look at these other tropes brought up in the thread:
If tribal people are walking around in fur bikinis? Yeah, that's Rule of Sexy. And if that's what the trope is, the trope belongs on the index. But I thought fur bikinis were just costumes that characters put of to be sexy to one another, much like a Sexy Santa Dress. (Actual elves in Sexy Santa Dress? Rule of Sexy.)
Heh! You know, I wasn't even thinking about the realism involved in the tentacles being naughty. I guess that shows just how strongly Rule of Sexy comes into play in this case.
edited 4th Feb '12 7:59:33 PM by Routerie
The Other Troper
"You seem to be searching for a broader definition that the true one. Why?"
What makes you think it isn't the true one? Hell, I even suggesting splitting off some of the broader things off of Rule of Cool, and the discussion was too keep the stuff included. Hence the definition is broader for these tropes.
"Fridge Logic isn't even a type of logic or contradiction; it just specifies the time when the issue occurs to you - sometime after first viewing, such as when you're poking through the fridge."
You think I wasn't applying that here? That was the form of the questions I put up in that post.
"Seeing a character wearing one shouldn't at all test your willing suspension of disbelief"
So you're just going back to the narrow definition. If you're just going to go "Nuh-uh, it means this", then I'm going to stop this here. More because I would rather avoid a back-and-forth from me between someone here. I'll let others discuss this.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Rule of Sexy is about situations that should break willing suspension of disbelief but that we don't mind because they're so sexy. But, as with all the Rule Of tropes, people misuse it. They think it means "just for the sake of being sexy," "for the sake of being sexy" or even simply "sexy."
So the Rule of Sexy index contains lots of sexy tropes that have nothing to do with Rule of Sexy. We do not need a Sexy Tropes index; we already have several more narrow indexes, including the recently-cleaned fanservice one, a new Fanservice Costumes one, a Sex Tropes index and a Nudity Tropes index.
So I suggest removing the following tropes from the index:
Leaving only:
edited 7th Feb '12 8:12:38 AM by Routerie