Manhua/ and Manhwa/ namespaces

Man, it's really difficult/messy to pin down the valid reasons as to whether of not we should keep or merge the Manhua/ and Manhwa/ namespaces when the thread keeps focusing/bringing up Manga/ as well. I get why it's brought up, but still.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jan 9th 2024 at 9:55:20 PM

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

They're interconnected more than anything, since Manhua/ and Manhwa/ are being treated as distinct from western comics in the same way Manga/ is. Merging both categories with either Comic/ or Manga/ feels weird either way for me, especially the latter since it could stir up controversy by conflating Chinese and Korean comics with Japan as if it's all under the same umbrella.

I think you meant namespaces, not categories. Anyways, I'm of the belief that the whole Manga/ namespace never should have have happened in the first place because they'd all just be Comic/ to me no matter what country and the differences in style, production, or publishing but I wasn't around when they made these namespaces. I didn't even know of this site's existence when the Manga/ namespace was implemented.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jan 9th 2024 at 10:58:25 PM

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

This:

is what I was getting at on the whole "trying to avoid pan-Asian lumping" and what harryhenry mentioned of possibly stirring up controversy (even if unintentionally), hence my favor towards the namespaces of "Manhua/" and "Manhwa/" being warranted. It might "just be Comic/" to you regardless of country and style, but to others — even if all three use 漫畫 (trad. Chinese)/漫画 (simpl. Chinese) — there's still cultural distinctions.

Again, the same is true for Light Novels, as said novels do have a particular writing style and some cultural distinction, but how come we still managed to agree to merge the Light Novel/ namespace into Literature/?

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

I'll bring up that in the Light Novel namespace and example placement thread that [[a troper also argued about Light Novels being culturally distinct Western literature.

But again, look what we ended up doing anyways.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jan 10th 2024 at 1:57:50 AM

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

The reason Manga/ is so relevant here is that without it, I'd agree that Manhua and Manhwa have no place. But since it does exist, I just genuinely fail to see the harm that comes from keeping the other two namespaces. It just becomes arbitrary if we're allowing one but not the other.

...Also, as mentioned, there's no "Comic/" namespace. There's Comic Book, Comic Strip, and Webcomic as well. The namespaces have always had wonky ass rules. Unless we're trying to distill everything into its most basic medium, I just don't see why this specific issue is a concern if the other splits are fine.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jan 9th 2024 at 1:14:20 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

By Comic/ I was actually just referring to the three Comic Book/, Webcomic/, and Comic Strip/ as a whole, I wasn't proposing a new namespace, just a shorthand. Sorry if that was confusing.

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

I get that, It just reminded me of how much of a mess the comic namespaces actually are. Because we already have such weird splits that don't stop at medium, I just don't see what issue Manhua and Manhwa are causing. At least Light Novel had issues such as often just being lumped into the manga and anime versions anyway, as well as the fact that Literature is actually a fully encompassing namespace already (if you ignore the issue of Fanfic)

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

I don't think I have more to say that wouldn't be repeating myself until it gets to the crowner. Lumper vs. Splitter was brought up and it's of relevance here. To me it's more important what something good does than what bad it doesn't, so it's going to end up with tropers going by their personal preference.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

Yeah, there are valid points from both sides of the aisle, but the consensus will not be clear until a crowner is hooked.

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

RE: Manga and Anime as separate namespaces, Japanese comics and animation are still often thrown into their own special categories in English-speaking western countries, and TV Tropes reflects that. While there's more overlap now between fans of anime/manga and western animation/comics, that mental separation remains.

Honestly, I feel a crowner might be coming soon. Not today/tonight or even tomorrow, just soon. Because this conversation has honestly gotten several of us are repeating the same points/arguments now.

At the same time, I'll give this thread as much time as possible to discuss it. I'm kinda busy with work shit atm anyways.

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jan 10th 2024 at 8:15:09 PM

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

I don't see any harm in a crowner. I think we're really pretty much talking in circles at this point.

Even worse, perfectly civil circles where most people see others' point and politely disagrees with the conclusions. C'mon, let's start some fights or something at least.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Yeah, to be clear I fully understand why people would want to get rid of these namespaces, it's the same logic behind getting rid of Light Novel, I just worry that in this case it would lead to a bigger mess than before.

A crowner is fine since we're all sort of just "agreeing to disagree"

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

Well if you guys are fine with a crowner soon, I'll list the options.

• Merge the Manhua/ and Manhwa/ namespaces into Comic Book/ and Webcomic/ while keeping the pages Manhua and Manhwa as indexes.
• Keep Manhua/ and Manhwa/ as namespaces.

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

This probably should've been mentioned earlier, but Media Categories FAQ explains the reasoning for the Anime & Manga category. It was added 2011 or earlier, and the lack of history makes it unclear who wrote it.

Picking one is eqivalent downvoting the other. A single-option is fine.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

I see you point, I'll just the first one

Crowner Description:

Crowner Options:

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jan 12th 2024 at 9:11:25 PM

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

The "and Webcomic/" is unnecessary because Korean and Chinese webcomics already belong in Webcomic/.

I've removed the "and Webcomic/" from the description and options

Edited by AudioSpeaks2 on Jan 11th 2024 at 2:53:57 AM

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

x5 Tbf, that's talking about categories, not namespaces, and the convoluted, repetitive nature of LN->Anime->Manga (or LN->Manga->Anime, or Anime->LN->Manga, or Anima->Manga->LN, though I can't think of anything that's gone that order... plus anything that went manga first into both others) is why it's extra headache inducing to even think about tackling that one.

Edited by RainehDaze on Jan 11th 2024 at 9:28:34 AM

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Yeah

Anyways, I've requested a crowner with the description and options, so we should get plenty of opinions pretty soon.

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

Ok, thread seems to have stalled because the crowner isn't up yet.

Art Museum Curator and frequent helper of the Web Original deprecation project

Well there don't seem to be many new talking points