Ambiguous Name: The Kingdom

The Kingdom has such a common name that it has a disambiguation section that is as long as the trope description itself, and pushes the description down half way down the page.

(Also not sure why things that aren't called "The Kingdom" or "Kingdom" would need disambiguation. Like Kingdom Hearts and Keys To The Kingdom, like, is anyone expecting a page called "The Kingdom" to lead to Kingdom Hearts?)

edited 8th Mar '17 8:23:15 AM by Ghilz

Well, just to start with, anything not actually titled "the Kingdom" needs to be taken off the disambiguation. If you want a whole new name, though, we'll need a wick check.

If there is a significant level of misuse, though (and I think at the very least we're probably going to be looking at a lot of ZCEs), then my recommendation for a rename would be The Good Kingdom, to parallel The Good King.

Can we cut the gigantic disambiguation section? There's no reason it should dwarf a trope's actual description.

So... Wick Check... 540 wicks, I will admittedly start with a nonrandom check of wicks: every Main/page will be reviewed.

• Alternate Self: A Crown of Stars: A fact of life in Avalon is that you will inevitably run into yourself at some point (quite literally In Shinji's case), or even children you never had. ZCE probably "good kingdom"
• Alternative Calendar: * The Reflections of Eterna series [...] the millenia-old empire of Taligoia was taken over and rebuilt from scratch into The Kingdom of Talig by a charismatic usurper [...] ZCE no clue
• Ambition Is Evil: Averted several times in the Honor Harrington novels [...] is obligated to take it to better serve The Kingdom The Empire. ZCE almost certain both are misuse for "good empire".
• MythologyGag.Anime: Mai-Otome [...] Additionally, the central setting for the first half of Mai-Otome is The Kingdom of Windbloom, while "fuuka" is written in Japanese with the characters for "wind" and "flower". ZCE
• Badass Family: The Royal House of Wessex. [...] That family founded a kingdom that actually did manage to Take Over the World for a while. ZCE almost certain misuse for "ruled by a King"
• Badass Princess: Cagalli, the Rebellious Princess of the Orb Union in Mobile Suit Gundam SEED ZCE
• Bastard Bastard: He's the son of the ruler of the land. ZCE almost certainly misuse for "kingdom".
• Beneath the Earth: Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn series heavily utilizes this trope. Not only is the Hayholt, capital of Erkynland, 'ZCE
• PlayingWith.Big Bad: Emperor Evulz VII is a scary and insane ruler, so everyone assumes he's singlehandedly responsible for turning The Kingdom into Mordor. Good Kingdom context appears sufficient
• Big Good: The Squire's Tales: To a lesser extent, King Arthur. He's practically never part of the action, but he's always presented as wise and good beyond compare, and it's because of him that England is as it is and the Knights of the Round Table exist. Good Kingdom could be better, but clear
• Black-and-White Morality: In Blue Rose, [...] There's a magic artifact used to make sure only light-aligned people get to become nobles in The Kingdom of Aldis. Good Kingdom
• Black Knight: In The Five Star Stories, [...] Most are free agents,n though they usually seem to have an affinity for The Kingdom of Colus. ZCE
• Blue Blood: In Honor Harrington, the Star Kingdom of Manticore has a noble class that was mostly descended from the first wave of colonists.ZCE
• Capital Offensive: In the first Ravenmark game, the Kaysani Reconquista carves a bloody path through the Empire of Estellion and its ally the Commonwealth of Esotre, eventually assaulting both capitals, Atium and Silvergate, respectively. ZCE
• Child Soldiers: Latooni, Seolla, Arado, and Princess Shine from Super Robot Wars: Original Generation. The first three are Tykebombs, while the fourth is a princess who isn't technically enlisted, and is simply allowed to fight alongside the other heroes to protect her Kingdom. ZCE probably Good Kingdom.
• Chronic Hero Syndrome: Heralds of Valdemar [...] Vanyel especially had it bad: as the most powerful Herald-Mage of his time, and eventually the only one left, no one else could protect The Kingdom the way he could. ZCE probably Good Kingdom
• Citadel City: Armengar from the first Riftwar Saga, which is a highly fortified city occupied by human settlers north of The Kingdom, frequently attacked by goblins and moredhel (dark elves). ZCE probably Good Kingdom
• Cloak and Dagger: In The Gamer's Alliance, there are several groups spying on other groups. SAVAGE, Maar Sul's elite military corps, has the Covert Operations Department, ZCE probably misuse
• Combat by Champion: Honor in The Stormlight Archive implies that Alethi can hope to win against Odium only if it decides to chose a champion. ZCE
• Cosmic Keystone: In The Dungeon Revealed, the theft of the Orb of Carnos plunges The Kingdom into "blight, disease, confusion and senseless infighting." ZCE probably Good Kingdom

That's twenty and only a couple are clearly for Good Kingdom nations. Several more seem good (if only because the Heroes are expected to fight for the side of good) but almost as many seem to be just "has a king". Real-life England is not The Kingdom. There are several more Main pages to do, but the pattern of "Pot Hole nation names" likely continues...

edited 16th Mar '17 9:57:57 AM by crazysamaritan

I had forgotten about this wick check. Do I need to continue it, or were 20 wicks sufficient to show severe misuse?

You usually have to do 50, right?

Fifty wicks is the minimum needed for a wick check, yes. Twenty isn't statistically relevant—though the results don't look good.

EDIT: Maybe we should look at The Empire at the same time, since it's a sister trope.

edited 23rd May '17 4:58:02 PM by Discar

10 more wicks:

• DisproportionateRetribution.Anime And Manga: Sara in Mermaid Melody Pichi Pichi Pitch unlocks an ancient civilization sealed away for their ancestors' crimes, destroys whole kingdoms (including her own), kidnaps two innocent princesses (one of whom was her Forgotten Childhood Friend), starts gunning for four more, and tries to cause The End of the World as We Know It... all because she was stood up by a human man. Who was, at least in the manga, FORCED to leave her. And that's just taking it out on the world; wait until she gets her hands on the guy... ZCE almost certain misuse for "ruled by a King"
• DarkerAndEdgier.Anime And Manga: [...] a Manipulative Bastard time traveler brings an army of dragons from the past and the Kingdom of Fiore begins to be torn apart while the strongest mages can do nothing against them. Good thing the city was evacuated beforehand. ZCE probably "good kingdom"
• CrapsackWorld.Anime And Manga: Übel Blatt. The main human empire is the sole bulwark against Wistech, which uses horrifying, corrupt magitek to create Body Horror Eldritch Abominations and Weapons of Mass Destruction as tools of war, but the humans are bolstered by the might of the Seven Heroes who won the last great war by striking at the heart of Wistech;[...] After their return, the "heroes" [...] got positions of power and prestige as nobility, which they proceeded to abuse and reign oppressively over the populace; at least two devolved into monsters, one went batshit crazy from guilt and paranoia, and the rest are at the very least flagrant hypocrites. ZCE, most likely a Subverted example of "Good Kingdom".
• Athens and Sparta:
  • Sometimes the good city is part of a kingdom while the bad city is part of an empire. Good Kingdom
  • The Lord of the Rings has Gondor, a human kingdom that is noble and heir to a powerful and advanced civilization, Good Kingdom
• Colour-Coded for Your Convenience: The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time has certain colors corresponding to Locations, Elements, Races etc. that are all aligned. Yellow - Hyrule / Light / Hylians ZCE most likely "Good Kingdom"
• Cult of Personality: It is also present in The Kingdom and The Empire where a new regime, if he is an Unexpected Successor, The Conqueror, The Usurper, or *gasp* a woman, would need to go out of their way to make their ideas presentable and acceptable to the people with memories of the Ye Goode Olde Days before this upstart with their fancy new ways arrived. ZCE, does not seem relevant to the situation.
• Dark Fantasy: Joe Abercrombie's The First Law series has a feudal society in which the upper classes scheme and intrigue while caring nothing about the common man and the Inquisition is a very powerful, feared and merciless force... Misuse
• Dark Horse Victory: In Ogre Battle: The March of the Black Queen, after the final battle, the Lord has united the continent, both holding control of The Kingdom of Zenobia and The Empire of Zeteginea. In most of the endings, either Tristan, the heir to the throne of Zenobia, takes the throne, or he abdicates it in favor of the Lord Good Kingdom, I think... rather sparse on the context.
• Days of Future Past: Feudal Future: In the future, human society will resemble a cross between medieval and early modern Europe, possibly with elements of Imperial Rome, Imperial China, and feudal Japan. Expect The Empire, although it will likely have elements of The Kingdom. Misuse: A mixture of "good nation" and "evil nation" is just "a nation".

The trope quote "Kingdoms are good. Empires are evil" made me think if we should have a trope about just that: if a kingdom is mentioned it will be good, if an empire is mentioned, it will be evil, similar to CIA Evil, FBI Good.

15 more Wicks checked:

• Decade Dissonance: The Conversion Bureau gives Equestria Ancient Grome-era military advances, a pre-industrial revolutionary (that is, agricultural) economy, and very medieval politics and governances (being essentially The Kingdom). ZCE
• Deconstructor Fleet: Tales of the Abyss [...] Also, while neither are explicitly the good guys or the bad guys, The Kingdom is more warlike and causes a lot more trouble than The Empire does, and has much more blood on its hands in the backstory. Misuse
• Decoy Protagonist: Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny [...] A) a large amount of the story is dedicated to Athrun's crisis of faith over having to side with his former ZAFT comrades against The Kingdom he defected to in the previous series (due to said kingdom deciding to give in to the corrupt Federation), ZCE
• Default to Good: Berserk [...] Guts was recruited to the Band of the Hawk, who were employed by the Kingdom of Midland to help fight against Tudor. When Guts went from default to the side of Midland, the kingdom got a HUGE advantage during the war. ZCE
• Defector from Decadence: Dragon Age Part of the backstory of the mabari hounds are they were bred by the Magisters of the Tevinter Imperium and added to their armies. When they came to the lands that would become Ferelden, the Mabari defected and chose to side with the "barbarian" ancestors of the Fereldans, remaining at their side for over a thousand years. ZCE, probably misuse, given that the Player Character gets to control who is in charge of Fereldan.
• Detect Evil: In Blue Rose, there's an artifact called the Blue Rose Scepter that basically casts Detect Evil on people. Anyone who wants to become a noble in The Kingdom of Aldis has to pass the test of the scepter. ZCE, but most likely correct.
• Divine Right of Kings: (Description sample) For most of history, in most of the world, people were subjects of The Kingdom, governed by a King and his Royal Family. Misuse for "form of government".
• Eagleland: The Democratic Crusaders AI archetype from Stellaris [...] do not differentiate between a pacifist Enlightened Monarchy and a despotic, slaving Star Empire. Good Kingdom
• Elemental Powers: Avatar franchise [...] the Fire Nation, the Water Tribes, the Air Nomads and the Earth Kingdom. ZCE
• Emperor Scientist: (Description) presiding over an empire that, while it still may be....well....Imperial (meaning it may not quite be The Kingdom)...is not evil, but instead does what it has to do to ensure the Advancement and Prosperity of Human Civilization. Not nessesary to the description
• Establishing Series Moment: Thunder Cats 2011, pulls a neat bait-and-switch, in "Omens Part One" lovingly displaying an Epic Tracking Shot of Thundera over Jaga's Opening Monologue speaking of the place as The Kingdom and a Shining City...after a brief Establishing Shot, the camera tilts downward to reveal extensive slums, and a group of Catfolk muggers beating a hapless Dog. This was the exact moment that showed any fans expecting a simple remake that no, this was not the Thundera of your childhood. Subversion of Good Kingdom
• Everythings Better With Princesses:
  • (Description) Any Kingdom worth the name has a princess. If that's the case, expect a violent conflict with her Aloof Big Brother, The Evil Prince, and/or the Evil Chancellor. ZCE
  • Mobile Suit Gundam, whose Sayla Mass (real name: Artesia Som Deikun) is a princess-in-exile of The Kingdom-like Republic of Zeon founded by her father. By the time of MSG, however, the former Republic is taken over by the villainous Zabi family and transformed into a "Principality", ZCE, probably correct
  • Murder Princess [...] The real princess of The Kingdom of Forland is a weak-willed Ojou but soon switches bodies with the most badass Action Girl in history, who proceeds to kick much ass and become the titular character. ZCE
  • The Honor Harrington series, with its protagonists' nation of Manticore (and many of its allies) being a constitutional monarchy, has its fair share of princesses. ZCE, probably misuse for "system of government"

Good Kingdom Evil Empire could work as a trope about counterparts.

However The Evil Empire and The Good Kingdom are a standalone thing of itself even though the latter is typically just a collection of the former.

The trifecta of Democracy, a Kingdom, a Empire facing off against each other is also a thing like the Trails Franchise and Tales Of Graces

edited 1st Jun '17 9:00:18 PM by Memers

We have Good Republic, Evil Empire.

^ Nice find, though it's referring more to the organizational structured within good and evil fraction. Kingdoms as well as Empires, for the most part, are both ruled as monarchies though.

On topic: The trope name The Kingdom lends itself to misuse via Wiki Words any time the word comes up on a page. One way to avoid this is renaming it to something like The Good Kingdom.

edited 3rd Jun '17 8:27:44 AM by eroock

Already suggested that. People seem on board, and we have almost enough wicks checked. crazysamaritan checked 45, I'll check five more to make the math easier:

• VideoGame.Exit Fate: Not enough context, but it seems to be misuse.
• Humans Are Divided: ZCE.
• Medieval Stasis: ZCE.
• VideoGame.Rocket Knight Adventures: ZCE.
• Literature.Tales Of The Magic Land: Correct.

So when combined with samaritan's findings, that's 37 ZCE, 5 correct, 8 misuse. That's 74% ZCE, only 10% correct.

Yeah. Seems pretty clear we need a rename. Current is a ZCE magnet at best.

edited 3rd Jun '17 8:14:00 AM by Discar

Bump. To summarize: Serious ZCE problems with The Kingdom, possible suggestions include renaming to The Good Kingdom or turning it to a paired trope of Good Kingdom And Evil Empire. Doing both is even an option.

Thoughts?

If we're generous (and we shouldn't be) with the wick check, there's 18 correct instances of the trope and 6 misused instances of the trope. I'm not sure that the trope of "good/fairytale/ideal kingdom" is always contrasted by an "evil/corrupt/inhuman empire".

The concept needs a rename; we can be clear on that. I also think a stronger definition/description of the trope should be chosen before the rename. I think the core concept that we want to convey is "this is a nation which would be Utopia, were it not for this story's main conflict". Naturally, I exclude Values Dissonance from this premise. We might not consider Themyscira to be utopia, but aside from the threat of Ares coming back, the story treats it as such.

Hooking crowner per holler. Will adjust it so we have a means of voting.

Bump for weekend votes.

Bump. We're at ten votes, which isn't great, but it's unanimous in favor of a rename, so...

Discar's idea of The Good Kingdom works.

The search results for "the good kingdom" on google make me think this is a pre-existing term for "kingdom of god." Not sure if that'll be an issue here, but if that's the name we agree on, I think we ought to include a line in the description differentiating them.

Then maybe ‘The ‘Good’ Kingdom’?