the Retromancer
I've said I'm working on the thread OP, but anyway...
- [Writing] - Part of the work's narration, continuity or production.
- [Characterization] - Part of character's In-Universe personal description.
- [Identification] - Something associated In-Universe with a character that another character can exploit.
- [Distinction] - What a character does In-Universe differently from others in same regard.
- [Association] - What the audience knows about a character.
- [RL] - Describes Real Life phenomena that can be used In-Universe.
- [Alternation] - Describes common changes in fanworks.
- [?] - Feels like it shouldn't be here to my understanding.
- [Submeme] - A specific genre of fan content.
Tropes at Signature Tropes:
- Ace Custom — not YMMV, [Characterization].
- The Artifact — not YMMV, [Writing].
- Calling Card — not YMMV, [Identification].
- Catchphrase — not YMMV, [Distinction].
- Author Catchphrase — not YMMV, [Writing].
- Defeat Catchphrase — not YMMV, [Distinction].
- Phrase Catcher — not YMMV, [Characterization].
- Share Phrase — not YMMV, [Writing][?]. (Is it Signature if multiple characters do it?)
- Signing Off Catchphrase — not YMMV, [Distinction].
- Character Signature Song — not YMMV, [Distinction]. (Stated to be subtrope of Signature Song which is YMMV and isn't actually related.)
- Image Song — not YMMV, [Writing]
- Leitmotif — not YMMV, [Writing].
- Consistent Clothing Style — not YMMV, [Characterization].
- Creator Thumbprint — not YMMV, [Writing].
- Everyone Has a Special Move — not YMMV, [Distinction].
- Grandfather Clause (for classic characters) — not YMMV, [?].
- Iconic Outfit — not YMMV, [Association]. (Should be YMMV?)
- Iconic Starter Equipment — not YMMV, [Writing].
- "I Want" Song — not YMMV, [Writing][?].
- Limited Wardrobe — not YMMV, [Characterization].
- Iconic Item — not YMMV, [Association]. (Should be YMMV?)
- Same Clothes, Different Year — not YMMV, [Characterization].
- Outdated Outfit (for classic characters) — not YMMV, [Characterization].
- Recognizable by Sound — not YMMV, [Identification].
- Replacement Artifact — not YMMV, [Writing].
- Signature Device — not YMMV, [Distinction].
- Signature Headgear — not YMMV, [Distinction].
- Signature Instrument — not YMMV, [Distinction].
- Signature Item Clue — not YMMV, [Identification].
- Signature Laugh — not YMMV, [Distinction].
- Signature Line — not YMMV, [Association]. (Should be YMMV?)
- Signature Mon — not YMMV, [Distinction].
- Signature Move — not YMMV, [Distinction].
- Shared Signature Move — not YMMV, [?].
- Signature Roar — not YMMV, [Identification].
- Signature Scene — YMMV, [Association].
- Signature Scent — not YMMV, [Identification].
- Signature Series Arc — YMMV, [Association].
- Signature Song — YMMV, [Association].
- Signature Sound Effect — not YMMV, [Association]. (Should be YMMV?)
- Signature Style (for authors) — not YMMV, [Writing].
- Stock Costume Traits — not YMMV, [?].
- Trademark Favorite Food — not YMMV, [Characterization].
- Weapon Specialization — not YMMV, [Characterization].
Tropes at Memetic Mutation:
- Catchphrase — Not YMMV, [?].
- The Catchphrase Catches On — YMMV. People use a quote from a work. (Maybe should be Trivia like The CSI Effect or vice versa.)
- Confucian Confusion — Not YMMV, [?].
- Slender Man Stand In — Not YMMV, [?]. (Fountain of Expies trope)
- Creepypasta — Not YMMV, A work genre.
- Discredited Meme — YMMV, Describes audience.
- Fan Nickname — YMMV, Describes audience.
- Fauxtivational Poster — Not YMMV, [Submeme].
- Forced Meme — Not YMMV, [Writing].
- Fountain of Memes — YMMV. Describes audience.
- Iconic Outfit — Not YMMV.
- Image Macro — Not YMMV, [Submeme].
- Instant Humiliation: Just Add YouTube! — Not YMMV, [Writing].
- The Internet Is for Cats — Not YMMV, [RL].
- The Internet Is for Porn — Not YMMV, [RL].
- Interrupting Meme — Not YMMV. Describes a genre of fan content. (The on-page examples are hot garbage.)
- J'accuse! — Not YMMV. Describes what characters do.
- Meme Acknowledgment — Trivia. A meme mentioned in a work.
- Ascended Meme — Not YMMV. A meme added to a work.
- Memetic Hair — YMMV, [Association].
- Memetic Hand Gesture — Not YMMV, [Association]. (Should be YMMV?)
- Memetic Personality Change — YMMV, [Alternation].
- Memetic Badass — YMMV, [Alternation].
- Memetic Loser — YMMV, [Alternation].
- Memetic Molester — YMMV, [Alternation].
- Memetic Psychopath — YMMV, [Alternation].
- Memetic Troll — YMMV, [Alternation].
- Memetic Bystander — YMMV, [Association].
- The Most Dangerous Video Game — Not YMMV, [?].
- Only in Florida — Not YMMV, [RL].
- Play-Along Meme — YMMV, [Submeme].
- Rules of the Internet — Not YMMV. Actually should be a work.
- Rule 34 — Not YMMV.
- Rule 50 — Not YMMV.
- Rule 63 — Not YMMV.
- Signature Scene — YMMV, [Association].
- Signature Transition — Not YMMV, [Association].
- Stay in the Kitchen — Not YMMV, [Writing][?].
- Stock Parody Jokes — YMMV, [RL].
- Stupid Statement Dance Mix — Not YMMV, [Submeme].
- There Are No Girls on the Internet — Not YMMV. [RL]
- Voice Clip Song — Not YMMV, [Submeme].
- Watch It for the Meme — Not YMMV, [Association].
- Wrongfully Attributed — Not YMMV, [?]. (Mixes In-Universe characters messing up quotes and Beam Me Up, Scotty!)
- Beam Me Up, Scotty! — Trivia, [?].
- X Called; They Want Their Y Back — Not YMMV, [?] (Stock Phrases)
Works and "works" at Memetic Mutation that should really be separated from tropes:
- Ad of Win
- Angry Marine's Ruby Quest
- Atheist Professor Copypasta
- Bowsette
- Candle Jack
- Caramelldansen Vid
- Creamsicle
- Jeff The Killer
- SCP Foundation
- The Slender Man Mythos
- Zalgo
- Fluffy Pony
- Hitler Rants
- Inglip
- Inspector Spacetime
- LOLCats
- The Man Your Man Could Smell Like
- Chuck Norris Facts
- Navy Seal Copypasta
- Rickroll
- Sans Gaming
- Tendies Stories
- Tropers Do It Without Notability
- TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life
- The Ugly Barnacle
- Virgin Vs Chad
- You Tube Poop
- "Iconic X": YMMV, something the audience know the work for.
- "Signature X": In-Universe tropes about unique traits.
- "Memetic X": In-Universe tropes about spreading a message. Without would just be Memetics in Fiction.
- "Meme X": YMMV, something changed in fanworks.
Rant aside I'd ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Memetic Hand Gesture for YMMV.
Edited by Amonimus on Dec 17th 2022 at 11:55:03 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
This seems to be an inconsistency of terminology rather than strictly definition. In practice I would say "Memetic" would mean that it takes on a life of its own and integrated into the general perception of the work, while "Signature" is more like Catchphrase where it is a recurring element within the work and intentionally associated with a character, place or story. So a theoretical Signature Hand Gesture would be Spock's "Live long and prosper" being repeated in key moments and so would be a main page trope, while Memetic Hand Gesture should be when that sign is used elsewhere by fans or other works and be a ymmv trope.
But like I said, it's inconsistent. Signature Move is main page while Signature Scene is ymmv.
Do you not know that in the service one must always choose the lesser of two weevils!
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'd agree with that. "Signature" is basically enforced by the work itself. It's done intentionally to the point where the object/style/etc essentially represents the character.
The Memetic tropes take on a life outside of the work. They're about how the culture around the work adopts specific things and spreads them.
However, tropes like Signature Scene are YMMV because they are about how audiences feel, not about what the work does. The scene of Vader and Luke isn't the signature because the work itself pushed it to be; it's the signature because it's memorable and has become so widely known in pop-culture that it's what people think of and reference when they think of and reference Star Wars.
Edited by WarJay77 on Dec 17th 2022 at 4:39:25 AM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Professional Wick Checker
True, well said.
I agree that "Iconic X" should be for YMMV tropes and "Signature X" for In-Universe ones. But "Memetic X" (i.e Memetic Loser & Memetic Hair) should remain YMMV as is. Renaming Memetic Hand Gesture to Signature Hand Gesture, if restricted to In-Universe examples, would be the ideal choice for now.
Edited by selkies on Dec 17th 2022 at 12:43:08 PM
the Retromancer
"Memetic X" and "Meme X" can kind be used interchangeably, so leaving that aside, that only means that
- Iconic Outfit should be YMMV
- Iconic Item should be YMMV
- Iconic Starter Equipment should be Signature Starter Equipment
- Memetic Hand Gesture can go either way depending on wick check
- Signature Line should be Iconic Line
- Signature Scene should be Iconic Scene
- Signature Song should be Iconic Song
- Signature Series Arc should be Iconic Series Arc
- Signature Sound Effect should be Iconic Sound Effect
And to be more pedantic, really, "Signature" is something one themself uses to identify something while "iconic" means "famous".
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
Another complication! Any popular work will have the "signature" details turned memetic as fans copy the work. :/
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Okay, rather than "will", "has a chance to". And at the end; "the more popular the work, the more likely it becomes". 
I suppose that I was being a bit hyperbolic.
Edited by crazysamaritan on Dec 17th 2022 at 12:07:16 PM
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Not necessarily. I wouldn't say fans trying to, say, make themselves a Jughead Jones crown makes the crown "memetic", and yet Jughead Jones is the image for Signature Headgear. When it comes to items and physical traits in particular, the fans copying it is really more due to cosplay or just simply wanting to dress like that in real life. But IDK if such a thing a "meme" because it's not transformative and it doesn't spread.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Professional Wick Checker
Sure, "memetic" and "signature" may overlap if a Signature Scene or Signature Line became a meme. Like Light Yagami's iconic "I will take a chip... and eat it!" line that got memed to death.
But the difference between a meme and an iconic element needs to be stated in the Signature Tropes index.
Memetic Hand Gesture wick check can be found here: Memetic Hand Gesture Wick Check if anyone wants to contribute or analyze the results. So far only 28 has been checked.
Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they)
May not be the best example because Star Wars may not have enforced it through repetition but it certainly did make it the dramatic climax of the film.
I think the distinctions I'd make are similar to Amonimus:
- "things the artwork repeats to identify its own characters, locations, themes, etc, and associate them with each other" (e.g. Signature Move, Iconic Outfit, Memetic Hand Gesture, Leitmotif)
- "things that the fandom picks up and repeats to each other" (e.g. Memetic Badass, Wham Line)
- "things that become definitive shorthand references to the entire artwork, in popular culture or by other works, especially if even people who have never seen the original can recognise them" (e.g. Signature Scene, Stock Parody)
The first two don't have to overlap (because the author and audience don't have to agree in what's important), but generally anything in the third category will necessarily be all three; Star Trek associates Spock with the Vulcan salute, fans imitate it because they like Spock, and non-fans recognise it as a Star Trek thing because it's repeated by the fandom and in advertising. The best word for the second one is clearly "memetic", but I think "signature" and "iconic" are too close to synonymous to make distinguishing them practical.
Edited by Noaqiyeum on Dec 17th 2022 at 6:01:10 PM
The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Sure, it's the dramatic climax, but my point is that being a dramatic climax doesn't inherently make the scene more memorable.
Another example I'll point to comes from Warrior Cats. There's a scene in the third arc that is so infamous it's universally referred to as "the fire scene" despite there being multiple fire scenes in basically every arc. It's been given fan art, fan videos, and everyone and their mother knows about what happened in that scene... but it wasn't a climatic moment, just a shocking reveal that didn't really impact the actual plot of that arc, to the point where most of the relevant information came from the arc prior. And yet, it's the scene everyone knows.
I'll use another example that's just a cool scene — the T-Rex stomping scene from the first Jurassic Park. It's, again, the scene that's almost endlessly been parodied and referenced, even if it's not a climatic scene, but just a well-crafted suspense scene.
My point here is that Signature Scene usually boils down to things like awesome lines, cool reveals, or just a specific moment that sticks with fans for one reason or another. It doesn't have to be crafted by the narrative to be "the" moment. It's YMMV for that reason: The creators didn't necessarily intend for the scene to be as famous as it ends up being, and the fame of it is down to the fans reacting to it.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Could not let it go without mentioning : Jughead's hat is not a meme just because he wears it all the time. But Jughead's page quote about said hat on Signature Headgear is actually a meme
. But that's a random scene from an adaptation that blew up on social media, not something the franchise tried to make happen through repeated uses of his hat.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Yeah, the "Weirdo" speech is absolutely a meme, but that's because it's a very cringe line that nobody would actually say, lmao. But the hat itself isn't memetic.
Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they)
Those are still important moments of the actual work, though. (Well, I can't talk about Warrior Cats.) Plot Twist, The Reveal, etc aren't audience reactions on their own, but it's very likely that those are the moments that the audience will best remember (and positioning one at the climax makes that more likely). It seems pretty rare that the thing everyone knows is a One-Scene Wonder of no narrative significance - both the use within the story and the audience reaction to it seem important.
Edited by Noaqiyeum on Dec 18th 2022 at 10:18:23 AM
The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
I'm just naming the scenes I can think of off the top of my head. I'm positive there's several Signature Scene that aren't crafted to be impactful, and simply got remembered because fans chose to remember them.
All this aside, I'm just trying to analyze what makes Signature Scene different from things like Signature Headgear, and why the other Signature "X" tropes aren't YMMV and should not be YMMV.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
the Retromancer
Signature Scene doesn't even require a scene to be awesome or impactful, only famous enough to be what's people think about when the work is brought up. Producers try to guess one for the trailers but rarely hit.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
And the fact that they know popular scenes are commonly a Plot Twist, The Reveal, etc is what causes Trailers Always Spoil. Not to say that it works, but the interaction between creators guessing and fans responding creates an interesting "feedback" loop.
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Professional Wick Checker
Anyway, I've noticed that Memetic Hand Gesture has lots of ZCEs and examples that read more like Character Tics (which means people confuse the trope for a specific hand gesture that's associated with a character, so it's more of a Recurring Hand Gesture or Signature Hand Gesture). It seems like it either needs work or to be cut.
So, I pointed out in the TRS discussion thread
that Memetic Hand Gesture had issues with its scope, and a few questions were raised.
1) Why is Memetic Hand Gesture not a YMMV page while Memetic Hair is YMMV when they're both about memetic things/got "memetic" in the title?
2) Where do we draw the line between "Memetic" tropes and "Signature" tropes (e.g. Signature Headgear and Signature Move)?
3) Is Memetic Hand Gesture tropeworthy? It suffers from lots of ZCEs not explaining how a hand gesture is memetic or is misused for universal gestures that aren't iconic at all.
I personally think Memetic Hand Gesture is tropeworthy but it has a confusing name and that it's trying to be two tropes at once, a YMMV one for literally memetic hand gestures and an In-Universe one for iconic hand gestures in a story.