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CaptainCrawdad
topic
12:14:13 PM Jul 8th 2014
Removed from What an Idiot:

  • Unfortunately, a major change from the books to the season finale "The Children" (see Broken Base) makes Tyrion's actions come off as kind of stupid. When Jaime breaks him out of his cell and helps him escape execution, Tyrion - one of the most intelligent and pragmatic individuals in Westeros - decides quite randomly and out of the blue to jeopardize his escape by going to confront his father in the Tower of the Hand. It comes off as very Out of Character. In the books, Tyrion's motivations for these actions that go against his character are better explained. Jaime confesses to Tyrion that his first wife Tysha wasn't a prostitute he'd hired for Tyrion; that was a lie Tywin forced Jaime to tell Tyrion to justify Tysha's gang-rape. Tyrion feels so utterly betrayed by this, he snaps and only then decides to confront and kill his father. Even Tyrion's questions to Tywin come off as stupid. "You knew I didn't kill Joffrey, yet you sentenced me to die anyway. Why?" Um... because your fighter lost in the trial by combat you demanded.

Is this really an example? It's true that the show doesn't give such an immediate reason for Tyrion to hunt down Tywin for a confrontation, but the father-son antipathy is a pretty major show plotline, so he still has plenty of motivation. Tyrion already risked his own life during his trial to hurl abuse at his father and the court, so it's not out of character.
Larkmarn
02:00:17 PM Jul 8th 2014
Even if it's understandable (and I truly think it is), it's uncharacteristically dumb for Tyrion to want to find Tywin at all.

Yes, he's emotional and they've had their obvious issues, but he's basically giving up his life for one last confrontation. Things really worked out about as perfectly for them as they could've, honestly... if Tywin had been in his room, or if he hadn't killed Tywin, Tyrion would've been caught before he could escape.
CaptainCrawdad
03:10:10 PM Jul 8th 2014
edited by 23.251.209.238
But remember that Tyrion doesn't just want to escape. He already had a chance to escape by joining the Night's Watch. He scorned that opportunity to publicly shame his father and all the rest. Tyrion is basically doing the same thing again: possibly throwing away his life for a chance to call the old man out.

Sticking it to Tywin seems to be something he values more than life itself. When he's trying to convince Jaime to fight for him, he doesn't seem to mind that Jaime can't fight worth a damn. He smiles and tries to convince Jaime that if they both die, Tywin would lose, and wouldn't that be awesome.
LogoP
05:39:24 PM Jul 8th 2014
Even if this entry is valid, it's so badly written and natter-y it should be zorched just for that.
Hodor
08:32:02 PM Jul 8th 2014
I don't get why people don't get why Tyrion killed Tywin- it's like they think that absent the book details, Tyrion would have no reason to.

To the contrary, in addition to all of the dickish stuff Tywin had done to him previously, Tywin spent much of the season framing him for murder.
WildWestSamurai
12:40:32 AM Jul 9th 2014
edited by 24.58.184.244
Agreed, Logo P. It wasn't very well written. But...

Captain Crawdad, the point remains that Tyrion's actions are incredibly out of character, even in the book. Whereas the book explains the motivations for Tyrion's sudden idiocy, the show just... has him jeopardize his escape practically on a whim. It makes one of the most pragmatic people in the show look quite idiotic. His actions at court could be justified not only as him being in the heat of the moment of an unexpected betrayal, but confident that his trial by combat would go well by 1) believing Bronn would fight for him, and 2) not expecting the Mountain to be the crown's champion. He does get incredibly scared about dying when he realizes the Mountain is fighting. By the time of his escape, he's definitely had time to think a lot of things over, such as the rashness of his actions. He'd have to be an incredibly stupid individual to risk his shot at freedom twice unless something else - like the "ultimate betrayal" from the book - were to cause him to completely snap.

Anyway, no, Hodor, Tyrion doesn't have a reason to risk his escape and possibly his life to confront Tywin. So, Tywin's a dick. Big whoop. That's not new information to Tyrion, first of all. Second of all, Cersei has dedicated just as much effort to framing Tyrion for murder as Tywin has, so why does Tyrion leave to confront Tywin specifically. Why not Cersei instead? Heck, why not both, since he seems to have all the time in the world to just do rash things on a whim? Why does he just go after Tywin, specifically?
LogoP
01:59:28 AM Jul 9th 2014
Well, he was the one who sentenced him to death. And was probably the one nearest. Remember that the tunnel network Tyrion used to escape is connected with the Tower of the Hand.

Besides, I don't think Tyrion's original intention was to kill him. More like confort him. It was after the whole mess with Shae things got out of hand.
WildWestSamurai
02:07:07 AM Jul 9th 2014
edited by 24.58.184.244
And what the hell did Tyrion expect after his fighter lost the trial by combat that he demanded? For Tywin to set him free despite his loss? Just questioning Tywin about why he was sentenced to death was stupid. Not only that, but it comes off as blaming Tywin for something Tyrion brought on himself.

Speaking of that tunnel network, we've never seen Tyrion use it on the show before. In the book, he'd never used it before either. How the hell does he know where the Tower of the Hand is from those tunnels without Varys' help - which was how he knew in the book?

Sorry, but no matter how you slice or dice it, Tyrion's actions and even his questions come off as rather stupid, considering nothing has happened to justify the sudden disregard for pragmatism he's afflicted with.
LogoP
02:27:22 AM Jul 9th 2014
edited by 37.32.187.16
Tyrion didn't "expect" anything. He'd just went through a period of watching everyone he knew turning on him and his own father sentencing him to death. He presumably reached his breaking point and wanted to finally come face-to-face with Tywin.

And, for all we know, the scene with Varys reverse-psychology-ing him to go to Tywin's room might have happened off-screen. Time contraints and all.
JulianLapostat
08:40:18 AM Jul 9th 2014
Look, general dislike and abuse from Tywin and washing his hands off Tyrion during the trial is not enough motive for Tyrion to confront his father and/or kill him. On that level, there is as much reason for him to kill Cersei, though Tyrion might think that Cersei genuinely thinks he's guilty whereas his father knows he's innocent but framing him anyway. Obviously finding Shae in Tywin's bed and evidence of his hypocrisy gives added incentive, but his reasons for going into that room is not made clear, and it's clearly very petty or vindictive rather than the tragic inevitable line-crossing. Honestly, it makes him a psycho-killer since he's much cooler whereas the killing in the books is obviously a crime of passion coming from righteous anger and years of pent-up bitterness brought out by a late revelation.

This is basically the result of removing a perfectly simple, dramatic motivation from the scene in the books and then shoehorning the scene without it and expecting it to have the same emotional effect. The result is the most dramatic moment for Tyrion's characterization where he finally becomes a Tragic Hero or Tragic Villain, ends up becoming a petty action driven by, in Tywin's words, "spite and low cunning".
Larkmarn
09:18:23 AM Jul 9th 2014
I don't really see it as the "removing the motivation" bit and am just seeing this on its own. Tyrion chose to avoid almost guaranteed safety for almost guaranteed death. It's nothing like the trial, where he spur of the moment blurted out his speech, he traveled those corridors knowing he was pretty much walking into certain death. Not to mention Trial by Combat actually made a lot of sense, considering he figured it was Meran Trant or something and didn't expect Cersei to go above and beyond with fixing the fight.
WildWestSamurai
12:28:51 PM Jul 9th 2014
Yes, Logo P, Tyrion just had Shae betray him at trial, so - understandably - he acted irrationally and demanded a trial by combat. Considering how well that turned out, it makes him look incredibly stupid to decide to do something irrational on a whim again without something rather extreme to motivate him.

And I have four words in retort to your notion that Varys reverse-psychology'd Tyrion to kill Tywin off-screen: "What have you done?" Show!Varys had no clue why Tyrion was taking so long to reach that door and knock twice, as per Jaime's instructions, and definitely no clue why Tyrion was covered in scratches.

So, we're just supposed to accept that Tyrion navigates a series of tunnels he's never been shown navigating without Varys' help and hopefully find the entrance to Tywin's chambers to confront him because... Tywin is a dick and sentenced him to death? And this circular logic comes back to why he doesn't go after Cersei as well. Especially in light of the fact his last emotional and irrational action - demanding a trial by combat - blew up in his face.

That's why a What an Idiot entry is justified. As the scene stands in the show, Tyrion's Out of Character actions look completely stupid with no justification for them whatsoever.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
03:45:11 PM Jun 27th 2014
Removed:

  • Ron the Death Eater: Book readers who hate the show's portrayal of Stannis act as if his Big Damn Heroes moment in the finale of Season 4 was a villainous attack on peaceful negotiations between the Wildlings and the Night's Watch, despite the fact that the "peaceful" negotiations were clearly going nowhere, and that Jon Snow (as well as everyone on the Wall) would most likely have been killed.

This trope is about fanworks, but the example sounds more like, at best, Alternative Character Interpretation. At worst, it just sounds like criticism of a criticism.
LogoP
08:49:52 PM Jun 27th 2014
Yeah, I was about to move this to discussion as well. First off, i've never, ever seen or heard of this complaint before, ever.

That aside, this sounds like... I dunno, whining about other people's whining. It's misuse.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
02:33:42 PM Jun 22nd 2014
Removed these two for some discussion:

  • Fan Dumb: There are vocal fans of the books who will deride the show and call it the worst adaptation ever in response to the most minute and inconsequential changes, such as a character's hair color or a few lines of unimportant dialogue. Never mind that most of the changes made had practical reasons, such as condensing exposition or combining character roles.
    • There's also the fan base's reactions to the Red Wedding, where tons of people freaked out over it and one "reviewer" even said that he was canceling his HBO subscription despite the incident happening in the book.
    • Some of the accusation against Ned's apparent bad-decision making can be a little ridiculous. One of the common arguments is that he should have agreed kidnap Joffrey and let Renly take the throne. In Season 2, Renly tried to take the throne, in a five way war, which he ultimately lost.
    • Some fans started a huge argument with fans of Transformers: War for Cybertron... because a trailer for Game of Thrones featured the same song, and they felt that Transformers fans were bitching. Okay...
    • The Hate Dumb below has its own counterpart in the other direction, where no matter how well-reasoned someone's criticisms are, they'll be accused of being a book purist whose only problem is They Changed It, Now It Sucks.
  • Hate Dumb: A Vocal Minority of book readers will cry out that Game of Thrones is messing everything up whenever the series deviates from the books. In fairness, certain series-exclusive elements haven't gone over well, while other changes were decidedly for the better.

It looks like these two tropes are being used by fans and critics of the series to snipe at each other, which isn't what this page is supposed to be about. I'm seeing a lot of this in the YMMV, which seems to be getting a lot of use by viewers to complain about the show or people who don't share their views. I think it would be a good idea to cut back on that.

People who want to vent about the show can write a Review, and there are plenty of messageboards out there to argue with each other.
LogoP
07:40:38 PM Jun 22nd 2014
edited by 37.32.191.25
Frist of, this needs clean-up ASAP. It's one big pile of Natter. "In fairness, Some fans, There's also..." are all Word Cruft.

Secondly, aren't Fan Dumb & Hate Dumb supposed to go on Darth Wiki?
SeptimusHeap
11:54:01 PM Jun 22nd 2014
Fan Dumb and Hate Dumb don't go in Darth Wiki, but there is an argument that they should go on Flame Bait.
Shaoken
01:41:13 AM Jun 23rd 2014
According to Ask The Tropers, they do in fact go in Darth Wiki.
SeptimusHeap
01:53:24 AM Jun 23rd 2014
That discussion was about Flame Bait. It does mention Darth Wiki but in the "some things that are Flame Bait go in Darth Wiki" sense, not as "Fan Dumb and Hate Dumb go in Darth Wiki".
Shaoken
02:45:21 AM Jun 23rd 2014
edited by 27.33.67.126
captainpat - "Does this mean we shouldn't list things like Hate Dumb and Fan Dumb on ymmv pages? "

Fighteer - "Reverted and PM'ed the troper who added all those things to Character Derailment. Yes, you should not list Hate Dumb and Fan Dumb on YMMV pages."

That doesn't mesh with what you said, unless we are getting hooked up on different things. What I'm saying is that Hate Dumb and Fan Dumb don't get listed on YMMV pages, the difference between Flame Bait and Darth Wiki is one I don't care about.
SeptimusHeap
03:07:01 AM Jun 23rd 2014
That has nothing to do with either Flame Bait or Darth Wiki. Question was: Do they go in Darth Wiki? My answer was: No. The points you bring up are that it should not be listed on YMMV. Fine, but not the question I was answering.
LogoP
07:23:17 AM Jun 23rd 2014
In any case, this either needs some serious trimming (plus a Rule of Cautious Editing Judgement note) or to be cut completely. It can't exist in its current from.
Shaoken
01:53:17 PM Jun 23rd 2014
Cut completely citing the ATT thread.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
09:08:08 PM Jun 20th 2014
Removed from Base Breaker:

This entry seems to say that fans either Love to Hate Ramsay or that he serves as a Hate Sink. That's doesn't sound like a "base breaker," it's just people enjoying a villain in different ways.
CaptainCrawdad
09:11:24 PM Jun 20th 2014
Also Joffrey, for the same reason:

  • Joffrey. Yes, Joffrey. While there's no question that he is pure evil and a nasty piece of work, fans are divided between whether the character should be loved simply for being pure evil (and to some, amusing) or utterly despised for being pure evil. Most people on both sides will fully praise his actor, through.

Again, this doesn't sound like a broken base. Everyone seems to agree that the character is an effective villain.
CaptainCrawdad
09:14:45 PM Jun 20th 2014
Also removing this:

  • Daenerys, as in the books, managed to separate the fandom between those who hate her for the stupidity and hypocrisy of her actions, and those who praise her for freeing the slaves.

This isn't really talking about the quality of the character, it's talking about Dany's flaws as a person. A bad person isn't necessarily a bad character.
LogoP
06:43:25 AM Jun 21st 2014
edited by 37.32.191.25
Cut, cut & cut. The same flawed arguement is used for both Ramsay and Joffrey. People are very much not devided in hating them. They just hate them in different ways.

As for Dany, well, it's pretty clear that her actions were meant to be devisive and controversial, in both the show and the books. People both love her for freeing the slaves and hate her for her naivety. That's what makes her an interesting character.

It's not like she was written to be seen as perfect and loved but she ended up hated and divisive due to bad writing.
Larkmarn
12:42:30 PM Jun 22nd 2014
Dany's a definite Base Breaker. To some people, she's the est and most moral person on the show. Others think she's a waste of screentime and don't care for her story. She's got a significant fandom and a huge hatedom. She definitely qualifies.
CaptainCrawdad
02:41:10 PM Jun 22nd 2014
In that case, Larkman, the entry should be re-worded to talk about the quality of the character. Being moral or hypocritical doesn't make a good or bad character. It's how effectively those traits are used to create a story.
Larkmarn
08:48:18 AM Jun 23rd 2014
How's this for Dany:

  • Daenerys. She's liked by some for doing her best and sticking by her morals, and applaud her success despite the fact that she essentially started the series with nothing, being effectively property. Others think that she's stubborn and are annoyed by both her decisions and the fact her successes can be attributed to a string of incredible luck.
CaptainCrawdad
11:10:52 AM Jun 24th 2014
That's still too much analysis of her as a person, rather than a character. Only the part about succeeding through luck is really relevant. This is more of what we would want:

  • Daenerys. Some viewers think that she is a compelling hero with an interesting backstory and motivation. Critics, however, find her unsympathetic as a hero and think that her plot lines lean too heavily on Deus ex Machina.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
12:01:59 PM Jun 16th 2014
edited by 23.251.209.234
Removed:

  • Seasonal Rot: readers felt that Book 4 was the slowest and most inconsequential of the series. Viewers have had similar reactions to Season 4: lumpy pacing due to the two-season split, the major Wham Episode (the Purple Wedding) being used to start the season instead of end it, and one particular Plot Twist (Lady Stoneheart) being pushed off until later.

The IMDB reviews for each episode (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/epdate) show that this is one of the better received seasons, with the fewest episodes dipping below 9.0. It's also the highest-rated season of HBO history, so I think this trope doesn't apply. At least not yet.
LogoP
12:31:36 PM Jun 16th 2014
edited by 37.32.165.72
Agreed. I've been to quite a few forums and discussion threads and most of the show only watchers think this season was good to great. With this season's finale being praised as the best one yet. Many casual book readers also share this opinion. While there's certainly a number of fans who think this season suffered from Seasonal Rot, they are arguably a Vocal Minority.
CaptainCrawdad
04:19:31 PM Jun 16th 2014
I think Vocal Minority kind of defines a lot of the YMMV page.
Hodor
09:26:01 PM Jun 16th 2014
Yeah. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that there's a huge amount of self-selection among the group of people that are book readers who discuss the show online, and the result is that there will often be a lot of agreement within that "bubble", and people tend to assume that reflects how everyone else thought about the episode/show.

Although I will note that personally, I found the finale episode a huge let down, although I felt the preceding episodes were quite strong.
Shaoken
topic
12:47:05 AM Jun 8th 2014
Over at What an Idiot I cut the italisised from the following entry:

  • Robb chooses to break his marriage contract with the Freys and marry Talisa, alienating a vital and already reluctant ally. Not long after Robb executes Lord Karstark rather than keep him hostage to ensure loyalty from Karstark's forces and instead ends up halving his army when they leave his side.

The Karstark part doesn't fit the trope because it ignores the context behind the move. In order to keep Karstark hostage he would be required to both lie about what happened to the two Lannister children he murdered and break his own code of honour by letting an unrepentant child murderer and traitor live (since Karstark both went against a direct order from his King and personally murdered another Northman), which both weakens Robb's already damaged credibility about being a just ruler unlike Joffrey and on a personal level makes him complicit in covering up two murders. It's not a What an Idiot moment, it's a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario where there was no right outcome.
CaptainCrawdad
10:31:17 AM Jun 8th 2014
I agree. Plus I don't recall anyone saying that Karstark's men were half of Robb's army.
Shaoken
05:07:44 PM Jun 8th 2014
They were a pretty big part of it since their absence rendered the war all but unwinnable for Robb. But the fact that people are acting like he would be an idiot not to punish treason and murder with more than a slap on the wrist is a bit puzzling to me.
Larkmarn
topic
07:21:26 AM Jun 2nd 2014
There a reason Sansa's Evil Costume Switch being Narm got deleted? Because I agree with it. It's supposed to show how she's become darker and more of The Vamp, but it just looked corny to me.
CaptainCrawdad
04:02:13 PM Jun 5th 2014
Narm has its own subpage.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
10:51:23 AM May 22nd 2014
Removed:

  • Epileptic Trees: Must be noted here, as the structure of the show (and especially the fully-canon history extras on the Blu-Rays) foster something more like Epileptic Groves, especially for people who haven't read the series. What's going to happen behind the wall? Are the gods real; maybe just the Red God? Will (insert object, any object here) be important later? And just what did Pod do to those whores?
    • The latter is especially hilarious, as people in-universe are left guessing at it.
    • There are also a few particularly large questions the show pointedly brings up and then doesn't answer immediately:
      • Jon Snow's mother - this one is front and center from early in season 1 on. Savvy viewers even wonder about the father, though; Ned, interestingly, never actually refers to Jon as his son, and always shapes his words so as to never say that Jon's the result of his infidelity.
      • Perhaps not entirely unrelated: what, exactly, was the real story behind Rhaegar abducting Lyanna Stark? Especially as of seasons 3 and 4, we keep hearing about how he was a good, noble, law-abiding man very much unlike his crazy dad - so abducting a woman, clean out of the blue, when he was already married and had children seems tremendously out of character. Did he just get struck with a bit of patented Targaryen Madness... or, as the show occasionally suggests without saying as much, was there more going on?

Epileptic Trees entries go in the Wild Mass Guessing page, just like Fridge Logic entries go in Headscratchers. Those spaces were created for these tropes. They do not belong on the YMMV page.
Larkmarn
11:49:32 AM May 22nd 2014
Actual guesses go on WMG. But to my knowledge, WMG-fuel can be mentioned here.

For example, the fact that Jon Snow's mother can be mentioned, but various guesses should stay on WMG. That make sense?

Otherwise, I just don't get the point of having Epileptic Trees as a page, you know?
CaptainCrawdad
04:20:06 PM May 22nd 2014
So if I wanted to write a WMG that Brienne is actually a crossdressing man, I could add an Epileptic Trees entry for "What is Brienne's real gender?"

I think this is the reason WMG is limited to its own section.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
01:30:09 PM May 19th 2014
Removed from Moral Event Horizon:

  • Robert sending an assassin after a (then innocent) 14-year old girl living on another continent because she's become pregnant. Theoretically the idea is motivated for fear of what could happen if the son raises an army, but realistically it's motivated by the fact Robert hates Targaryans with a burning passion. Robert even regrets it on his deathbed.

This is a misuse of the trope, which is about "An act that puts its perpetrator beyond any chance of redemption." Robert remains a flawed but sympathetic character throughout his run. This deed is portrayed as immoral, and as the write-up admits, he regrets the decision and tells Eddard to call off any further attempts. This trope is about a character's turn into irrevocable villainy. Robert never does that.
Larkmarn
01:46:31 PM May 19th 2014
I lean towards its removal, but I'm fine either way, honestly. I amended it because as it was written before, it was... just comically awful (explicitly saying that it's worse than Cersei setting Ned up to be killed). And personally, I don't think Robert's done anything bad enough to qualify for a MEH.

But MEH is a fairly personal thing, and it sounds like to whoever added the example, Robert calling the assassin crossed a line for them. Mind you, it could be a Ron the Death Eater effect (especially by claiming that all Dany did was "get pregnant"... she was married to the Khal for the explicit purpose of getting an army to invade Westeros. And as I added, he did regret the action, which usually winds up discounting someone from crossing the MEH.
Tianzi
01:58:17 PM May 19th 2014
edited by 89.65.29.8
Then we should remove Jaime's entry as well, because however evil pushing a child out of window looked at the time, he doesn't serve as 'irredeemably evil' anymore. Not sure about Karstark, as his grief-driven murder of two innocent boys isn't really much more evil than Theon's action of killing the miller boys to cover his failure, is it? Theon's act isn't on the list and the character isn't 'irredeemably evil' anymore, mostly because of crap that happened to him after. So, maybe, if Walder Frey becomes miserable or sorry later in the series' run, we should remove the Red Wedding as well? Just needing clarification. Because after reading the trope's description, I'd actually remove Cersei's entry as well, because she does not become a monster, she clearly detests Joffrey's cruel tendencies and, well, while killing your abusive, whoring husband who's broken your heart and is probably to hunt you and possibly your children down isn't a noble thing, it doesn't send her into the 'irredeemable' territory in my opinion.

PS. Cersei didn't intend Ned to be killed, so we're not talking about that one.
LogoP
10:03:13 AM Jun 1st 2014
Robert regrets doing it, Robert still remains (semi-) sympathetic after doing it, it isn't presented as something horrible or irredeemable and the threat of a Dothraki invasion is proven real. So, no, doesn't fit.
CaptainCrawdad
04:16:57 PM Jun 1st 2014
I agree with Tianzi that some of the other entries also don't fit.

It's pretty much unanimous that Jaime becomes much more sympathetic in season 3, in spite of his past actions. So there was actually some escape from that moral black hole.

Also, Cersei, in spite of being pretty villainous, also hasn't done anything that goes beyond the pale. She's received a number of "poor Cersei" scenes throughout the show.
Shaoken
12:37:59 AM Jun 2nd 2014
I'd support keeping Robert cut, since the action that gets him listed is one that he regrets and makes his very last command to abort it.

As for the other characters, Cersei I would say it's hard to take her off because while she gets a lot of sympathetic moments, she doesn't really stop herself from petty Kick the Dog moments, has no regrets about anything she's actually done, and really the best argument to keep her off is that she hadn't done something heinous enough that there was no coming back from.

As for the others, Jamie is easy to take off given his Character Development in Season 3 (and that he has a fairly good justification for throwing Bran out of a window since if he told anyone what he saw it would mean the deaths of Ceresi and her children), Theon manages to squeeze out of it while Karsark goes flying past it because Theon knows from the get-go that it's wrong, is just too weak to stop whatshisface from talking him into it and killing the kids, and spends most of his time afterwards feeling bad about it and what else he's had to do to earn his father's approval, while Karstark knows full well the two boys have absolutely nothing to do with the deaths of his own sons, murders a fellow Northmen to get to them and goes to his grave without a shred of remorse or shame over it. Intent matters a lot here; Theon was basically too weak-willed to stand up and not do evil things and spends his time regretting it afterwards, Karstark may have grief but he knows full well that Tywin doesn't care about the boys and as far as anyone knows Jamie wouldn't lose sleep over it and he goes and kills someone his on his own side just to get his Revenge by Proxy.

I can't see Walder Frey coming back since he's listed as a Complete Monster and showed absolute glee at what was going on, without having any excuses or mitigating circumstances.
Tianzi
02:04:43 AM Jun 2nd 2014
I agree with what you say about Theon. As for Karstark, I have some doubts, because he's clearly not thinking rationally and was at some level deluding himself that what he's had done was 'right'.

Jaime? Funny here. As far as his Character Development has come, I don't remember him showing any remorse for pushing Bran out of the window and 'hoping that the fall would kill him'. He also murdered his random cousin (making himself a kinslayer) and didn't look back. Neither did the show. And yet, after doing this rather monstrous deeds and never regretting or amending for them, he manages to be sympathetic now. Maybe it's not too late for Walder Frey also? (ok, kidding with this one, but hey, who knows, what will happen at his deathbed!)

As for Cersei, I say remove. Evil, petty, dog-kicking, bitchy, unstable, without Jaime's will to do good - yes. But it's a certain action for which she's listed here, and objectively speaking it's almost the same as what Olenna Tyrell did later. Regicide? Check. Preceding the actions of the opponent by murdering him? Check. Power play? Check. A concern for her loved ones? Check. (in Cersei's case also for her own life) Letting an innocent man pay for it? CHECK. Tyrion's kept his head so far, but not thanks to Olenna (she could have suspected that Tywin wouldn't execute a relative, but that's all), and Cersei had actively tried to spare Ned's life. Robert was no monster while Joffrey was, and Cersei supported the psychotic Joffrey (this one she regretted when she came to the realization), while Olenna supported the wise Margaery - yes, but the Queen of Thorns didn't commit murder for justice. She did it because Joffrey would be a hindrance to Tyrell's plans.

Do we list Olenna in MEH? No, we are just so damn happy that Joffrey is dead.

I personally would claim Cersei's action pretty low in the ascending 'would-be MEH' order. She played dirty - like everyone here (except 'poor old dead Ned'). Murder? Unpleasant as it is, also pretty much a standard. Let's list some child/innocent murderers and would-be murderers: Theon, Jaime, Tywin, Melisandre, Stannis, and yes, Robert. And Sandor Clegane. (Our anti-villain. Anyone besides Arya remembers Mycah the butcher boy?)

So I'd personally leave out the hardcore guys (like Littlefinger, Walder Frey, Ramsay, or Joffrey) and one-dimensional baddies and nuke all the grays, even the darker ones.
Shaoken
04:18:29 AM Jun 2nd 2014
With Karstark I think what really pushes it is that even when confronted with the facts of what he's done he's unrepentant that he has committed treason, slew his fellow Northman and murdered two innocent boys. Yes he was sympathetic but

As for Jamie he hasn't shown remorse for pushing Bran, but he does have the "protecting my family" excuse that keeps him out of MEH territory even before Character Development. He might regret killing his cousin, he brings it up in passing in the latest episode but that's not really conclusive. But intent is the key qualifier here; for the first of the heinous acts he's protecting his children's lives, for the second he's desperate and trying to escape which is still bad but it's not like he killed him for the hell of it.

Also in the case of Moral Event Horizon you are allowed a Redemption Equals Death moment, so if Walder Frey does somehow come to the end of his life and go "hey, I was a horrible bastard I better work on fixing that" then he would still count as this trope.

I agree with Cersei, but your argument is weak. Yes Olenna did the same thing essentially, but intent matters. Joffrey was a monster and a sadist, and everybody knows how he treated his last bride to be. Sure the Tyrells benefited from it as a house too, but part of the reasoning was to make sure Margaery didn't suffer at Joffrey's hands. Likewise the child murders and would be murderers all have intent that keeps them out; Theon regretted it, Jamie was protecting his family, Tywin probably isn't the best example with the Rains of Cashmire being a bit excessive, Melisandre and Stannis have the "one life to save millions" excuse, Robert had the good sense to regret and try and call it off, and Sandor was following a lawful order to track down someone who as far as he was told had assaulted and injured the Prince of the realm.

My stance would probably be to keep all the Complete Monsters and those who most certainly crossed the MEH there, and leave the more ambiguous people on the side and wait and see if they get the Jamie treatment or the Joffrey treatment.
LogoP
topic
08:41:34 AM May 1st 2014
edited by 79.103.194.131
I think it's time to either create an Ensemble Darkhorse sub-page or cut some of the ED examples and place them under One-Scene Wonder. This list is getting way out of hand.
Larkmarn
08:45:48 AM May 1st 2014
Agreed. Some can go to One-Scene Wonder (like Ser Pounce) but even cutting some, it needs its own subpage.

... gotta say I'm very surprised to see Karl on that list, though. That's... uh... interesting.
progkinghughes
02:29:11 PM May 12th 2014
Karl's probably a Base Breaker. Some find him (largely due to the actor's performance) to be an enjoyably Love to Hate villain, while others find him just a piece of a gratuitous, pointless Shaggy Dog Story. Hell, the whole Craster's Keep plotline is pretty much a Base Breaker among book readers.
Larkmarn
06:26:54 AM May 14th 2014
Moved Karl to Base Breaker. Feel free to modify his entry as you see fit.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
08:35:12 AM Apr 29th 2014
Removed:

  • Also, surprisingly, the White Walkers in general. They're posited as the greatest of evils, and their presentation and Leitmotifs are generally somewhat sinister... but all of our perspective characters are biased purely against them. As much as they seem sinister and otherworldly, it's worth noting that the Walkers have, generally, only fought people who entered their territory; we don't know if the Wildlings in the first episode did some offense against them. Everyone else has, strictly speaking, been invading their territory and stabbing them with dragonglass and whatnot... so do they just want to sweep down and kill all men, as the legends say, or do they believe they're acting in self-defense?
    • Even the "ending scene" of Oathkeeper doesn't break this: oh no, they've converted a baby! But... think about it. That baby was abandoned in the wilds. (Yes, technically abandoned to them, but we have no indication they ever actually asked for this.) That White Walker came along and saved a baby from freezing to death. Yes, whoever that is at the end seems to turn the child into a Walker... but, again, what else are they to do? They have no way of feeding an infant conventionally where they live; nothing grows that far north and they have to rely on dead animals for transport, even! So "converting" the baby would be the only way for it to survive. So: are the Walkers taking human babies and turning them into monsters like themselves... or is the only way for them to increase their numbers to take the cast-off children of Man and make it so they can survive on the edge of the world, like themselves?

The White Walkers don't just attack anyone who is invading "their" territory. This is the whole reason that the Wildlings are trying to flee south behind the Wall. The White Walkers are moving in on them.
Larkmarn
08:46:55 AM Apr 29th 2014
edited by 156.33.241.8
They also, you know, had an agreement with Craster to have him abandon the babies in the woods. Yes, there's no way he'd survive on his own... but the only reason he was in the forest on his own was because they had an agreement with Craster to leave his sons in exchange for peace.

What's this pulled from, anyway? It seems like a righteous pull given it's just blatantly factually inaccurate (plus the White Walkers in the first episode were definitely south of the wall, played dead to lure people in, then killed them. That's... uh... that's not an act of self-defense).
Shaoken
02:52:17 AM Apr 30th 2014
It's from the YMMV page.

Also the White Walkers in the first episode were North of the wall, since the first seen shows how the three Night's Watch rangers go North of the Wall to investigate.
Larkmarn
08:47:07 AM Apr 30th 2014
edited by 156.33.241.8
Ah, I stand corrected. I just remembered greenery and thought it was South of the wall. Still, playing dead and then ambushing someone is not a defensive tactic.

In any case, the first paragraph might apply, but the second is just inaccurate and shouldn't be on the page, YMMV or not. It's just inaccurate.
LogoP
topic
01:48:51 PM Apr 3rd 2014
Whose decision was to remove the Complete Monster examples from the YMMV page and place them in A Song of Ice and Fire ? I don't think they belong there.
SeptimusHeap
01:58:43 PM Apr 3rd 2014
Maybe ask the Complete Monster cleanup topic.
Shaoken
04:34:19 AM Apr 28th 2014
It's standing policy for the clean up effort; any work that has it's own subpage get's a link to it on the relevant YMMV pages which helps keep down on misuse. Case in point; there are only three vetted examples of Complete Mosnter, there were five on this page. Leave the examples here and any troper can just throw together an example in violation of policy, force them to go there and they have to go through the right channels to get it added.

And before the arguments arise, per Fast Eddie decree examples are either exclusively cleaned up through the cleanup thread or the entire trope get's axed, so there is no middle ground like "they can be cut from the main page but be on the YMMV one."
Larkmarn
06:01:41 AM Apr 28th 2014
edited by 156.33.241.8
Pretty sure Logo's point is that it's weird that they went to the A Song of Ice and Fire page since the works are somewhat divergent... at least enough to have separate examples. Game of Thrones doesn't really have its own subpage (except, well, as a redirect to the ASOFIAF page).

And I for one don't like them being on the same subpage. I mean, we've got two Forum topics in the TV section (one for people who have read the books, one for those who haven't) so it seems odd to lump them. I mean, given some characters' monstrosity were intentionally huge surprises (Walder Frey seemed like a Cool Old Guy for a while), it just seems to be needless spoilers for those who haven't read the books.
SeptimusHeap
06:44:40 AM Apr 28th 2014
That should be discussed in the Complete Monster cleanup topic though.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
01:38:43 PM Feb 27th 2014
Can we perhaps review the Broken Base entries altogether, because they seem a bit out of control. There are twelve entries there. By comparison, there are four entries for Base Breaker / Broken Base in A Song of Ice and Fire. Are all of these really examples of major dividing lines in the fanbase? It seems like every time a few people disagree on a messageboard thread somewhere it's getting recording as a Broken Base.
Larkmarn
02:24:01 PM Feb 27th 2014
edited by 156.33.241.8
It makes sense that we've got more examples, since we've got a much larger (and more importantly, broader) audience than the books. The books, as popular as they are, don't have nearly as diverse a fanbase as the show, which means of course there will be more Broken Base elements.

... that said, I do agree that it does need trimming. At the very least, about half of them need to go into Base Breaker.

Personally, I was unaware people didn't like "The Bear and the Maiden Fair." I also thought that, Alas, Poor Scrappy aside, Ros was pretty much universally disliked. But I don't claim to have my ear to the ground of the fandom.
CaptainCrawdad
08:30:22 PM Feb 27th 2014
But my point is to ask whether the fanbase is actually "broken" about all of these issues. Are all of these topics causing "civil war," as the trope description says? Or are these topics simply getting mixed reactions?
SeptimusHeap
03:36:08 AM Feb 28th 2014
I don't think it's practical to draw such a distinction.
CaptainCrawdad
09:10:37 PM Feb 28th 2014
Sure it's practical. Most people who check out this page would be Game of Thrones fans, and most fans can testify as to what's going on the fanbase.

Besides, the trope is about when a fanbase gets "broken" by a divisive topic. If the trope applies whenever at least one person has a different opinion than the rest, then we could list literally every aspect of the show as an example, and that's not a trope.
SeptimusHeap
01:27:50 AM Mar 1st 2014
History belies the idea that we can get an uncontested entry in the way you describe. Also, I worry about the standing of this idea under YMMV policies - YMMV pages collect opinions and they don't have to be majority opinions.
CaptainCrawdad
01:00:37 AM Mar 2nd 2014
Broken Base is a bit different from most other YMMV tropes in that it's not an opinion about the work, but a factual assertion that the fanbase is divided on a subjective issue.

It's an opinion to think that Tyrion is a lousy character or a good character, but it's a fact as to whether fans are warring over the issue. In this example, I might personally think that Tyrion is the worst character in the show, but I couldn't claim that there's a Broken Base over the issue, because the fanbase isn't broken over that topic. It's factually inaccurate. Think of it like Rotten Tomatoes: each review is subjective, but we can determine objectively whether the reviews were mixed or unanimous.
captainmarkle
06:37:07 AM Apr 23rd 2014
I think we're starting to have a serious problem again with "Breaker of Chains".
Larkmarn
06:48:11 AM Apr 23rd 2014
Are we? How so? It seems to be fairly civil and there's no edit warring going on over it. What's your issue with it?

By the way, I'm moving some of the Broken Base items to Base Breaker.
LogoP
11:39:02 AM Apr 23rd 2014
^^ Can you be more elaborate?
Larkmarn
11:36:16 AM Jun 2nd 2014
Question: Can we now remove Oberyn Martell from the Base Breaker list? While there was buzz before he actually appeared, I'm pretty sure as soon as he showed up he was pretty much unanimously liked.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
02:05:16 PM Feb 13th 2014
Removed from Broken Base:

  • This continues after unlike in the books, Talisa was killed at the Red Wedding, and in a particularly brutal fashion with her pregnant belly being stabbed over and over. People who already hated her either had an Alas, Poor Scrappy reaction, or resented a development that seems designed to make it hard to say you don't like her without looking like a jerk.

I'm don't frequent the fan sites these days, so is this really an example of a major split in the fandom? And it is worth mentioning after the already stated issue with Talisa in that section? I don't want this trope to get bogged down with every criticism ever leveled against the show, which is just Complaining About Shows You Don't Like.
LogoP
02:43:32 PM Feb 13th 2014
Personally, I have yet to see/read about someone who thinks that Talisa's death "seems designed to make it hard to say you don't like her without looking like a jerk."

Now, some folks on the forums and the YouTube comment sections had an Alas, Poor Scrappy reaction to her death. But disliking it because it makes it hard for the to hate on her? No, haven't seen that. Honestly, it seems like an exaggeration.
Hodor
02:49:46 PM Feb 13th 2014
I think some of those people were hoping that the "Lannister Honeypot" theory would turn out to be true and were disappointed when it wasn't. But yeah, it's an exaggeration, and not so much a broken base as some of the people who didn't like the character when alive, still not liking her when dead.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
10:17:18 AM Feb 10th 2014
edited by 76.95.91.117
I removed a part of Heartwarming In Hindsight stating that Renly's standards are green and yellow, the Tyrell colors. I swear I'm not colorblind, and I've always seen them as blue and yellow. This screencap seems to confirm that. I even checked it in an image editing program and they're well within the blue spectrum. Is there another scene where Renly's standards look green?
Hodor
09:20:08 PM Feb 10th 2014
I see them as a bluish green/greenish blue. That's kind of a moot point though, because the Tyrell colors aren't green and yellow in the show (The Tyrells dress in blue, although when she is betrothed to Renly, Margaery wore some green), and adding to that is the fact that Renly in the books liked to dress in green and gold/wears gold and some green in the show (gold is the Baratheon color).

Now I do happen to think that Renly's Crown of Horns has a somewhat floral look, so that might have been an homage to the Tyrrels.

LogoP
04:25:44 AM Feb 11th 2014
I agree about the colors being semilar but it doesn't really seem as Heartwarming In Hindsight.

While it's true that Renly's sigil, dressing style and colors do resemble the Tyrell ones, I think it has more to do with symbolizing his political alliance with House Tyrell.
CaptainCrawdad
03:47:52 PM Feb 12th 2014
If Tyrell colors are blue and not green, that confuses things in this entry. The "green and gold" cloak isn't a reference to house colors, and Renly never wears blue. I agree with Logo P that changing his standards seems to be more about the Renly-Tyrell political alliance, which is vital to his claim. Stannis also changes his standard to differentiate himself from his rival brother.

That seems to remove all suggestions of Renly "becoming Tyrell." The only thing we have left is Loras referencing Renly's cloak in his fantasy wedding, which simply speaks to loving Renly himself.
LogoP
03:57:36 AM Feb 13th 2014
I agree. Loras referencing Renly's cloak in his fantasy has likely more to do with him being heartbroken and remembering Renly than anything else.
siberia82
07:39:03 AM Feb 13th 2014
Although the Tyrells are associated with the colour teal on the show, the HBO website still officially presents their sigil as gold on green, as seen here on the Viewer's Guide, here, where the colour of the Tyrell T-shirt is listed as "green" in the Additional Details section—I do own this T-shirt, btw, and it's more green that what you see in the stock image—and here, where the description reads, "feature the green and gold rose sigil of House Tyrell".

So I would still argue that the green brocade cloak that Renly wore at the tourney was meant to be a symbol of his love and commitment to Loras, as he is more or less imitating the wedding tradition.
siberia82
08:42:31 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 174.93.166.176
I forgot to add that I did visit the Go T Exhibit last year, and this is my snapshot of King Renly's sigil, which is clearly gold on green. I don't have the ability to make screen shots, but you can see this vertical banner behind Brienne when she tells Catelyn to kneel before Renly, in front of a tent while the three of them are walking, in the background while Renly is kissing the bruises on Loras' chest (it's on the side of Renly's posterior), in front of a tent once again in a shot which takes just before Renly greets Littlefinger, and on either side of Littlefinger as Renly grabs an apple. (There may be more examples, but those are the ones I remember off-hand.)

Some of Renly's soldiers also carried golden-stag-on-green shields which looked like this. I also own this King Renly sigil T-Shirt, and the colours are obviously gold on green. I also found this screen shot of the Season 2 Blu-Ray menu of Renly's banner.

I should point out that the colours of House Baratheon are black and YELLOW, not black and gold (and no, yellow and gold aren't the same shade). The showrunners took the trouble to change the colours of Renly's sigil (they could've simply kept the original banner just like his character does in the books) because it symbolizes the Tyrell-like personality that they have given to him (the TV character is pretty much a male version of Margaery, not a poor copy of Robert). From a production-level perspective, it represents more than "just" Renly acknowledging the contributions of his wife's family to his cause. In terms of how his character was written for show, he IS a Tyrell at heart despite carrying the Baratheon name.

Although Renly only wore black throughout Season 1, the costume designer put in the effort to create a green brocade cloak for his character to wear when Loras jousted, and she clearly had the intention of linking the green of Loras' sigil with Renly's fashion choices. There's no other reason why she would bother to add this garment on Renly (especially considering that he's only a secondary character) when it would've been easier and cheaper just to have him be dressed solely in black for the tourney.
LogoP
09:25:48 AM Feb 13th 2014
I've looked into it and the GOT wiki actually has an article on House Baratheon which explicitly states that the sigil and colours adopted by Renly for his faction in the War of the Five Kings mirrored his alliance with House Tyrell.

Considering that Renly used to wear normal colors (Season One) before teaming up with the Tyrells and making his bid for kingship, i'd say it's say to assume that his choice of colors has more to do with his political allegiance.

Really, it's the same with Stannis (who flat-out stated that he has no faith in R'hllor) adopting the flaming stag as his sigil in order to distance himself from Renly and Jofrrey.

Hodor
09:45:36 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 71.57.52.184
(Got your PM siberia 82). My bad with the colors of the sigils.

Given the above, I think I'd say that Renly does seem to clearly adopt Tyrrell stylings because of his alliance with them, but I'm sure that at least in part, his love for Loras was a motivator (in the sense that his dress style conveys his alliance with the Tyrells/marriage to Margaery, but also symbolizes his ties to Loras in a private joke kind of way).

Which means that it isn't really Heartwarming In Hindsight, since Renly did obviously adopt Tyrrell stylings (I'm not sure if the idea that he probably did so in part because of his relationship with Loras is Heart Warming In Hindsight, self-evident, or Epileptic Trees).

I do think that this though, "In terms of how his character was written for show, he IS a Tyrell at heart despite carrying the Baratheon name" is not clearly established on the show, and is just your personal interpretation (Renly doesn't like his brothers and loves Loras, but I don't think that is the same thing as being a Tyrell despite having the Baratheon name- I mean like as a comparison, Catelyn has kind of gone native on the show to a greater extent than in the books, but I don't think it would be accurate to say she's a Stark at heart despite carrying the Tully name).
siberia82
09:49:20 AM Feb 13th 2014
Logo P, you didn't seem to have read the last paragraph of my previous post properly because the point I was trying to make is that the costume designer took the trouble to dress Renly in a GREEN brocade cloak when he watched Loras joust (which took place in Season 1, in case you forgot) even though he only wore black for the rest of the season. This occurred BEFORE any thought of becoming king entered Renly's head, so the only reason why Michele Clapton would bother to add this detail to his character is because she wanted to show that Renly loved Loras and he brought the green brocade cloak to the tourney as a romantic gesture for his boyfriend. Renly basically viewed himself as Loras' "bride" at this stage.
Hodor
09:55:22 AM Feb 13th 2014
I'm gong to take issue with this- "the only reason why Michele Clapton would bother to add this detail to his character"- I think your interpretation is plausible, but characters on the show (and in the books) will wear different outfits, and not only ones that have their house colors.

I mean Cersei wears green occasionally, and she isn't doing it to express allegiance to the Tyrrells- I mean it also seems plausible to me that since it was a tourney, Renly wanted to wear something more stylish.
siberia82
10:00:40 AM Feb 13th 2014
Hodor, House Baratheon is traditionally known as a family of warriors, which TV!Renly definitely isn't. His brothers mock him for being a non-fighter, and Robert is especially disparaging of Renly's masculinity (e.g. calling him a "boy" during their hunting trip). The writers make the point of showing that Renly has different strengths, such as being good at politics, his concern for the smallfolk, his desire to rule through love instead of fear, having a progressive attitude towards women (his own inability to fit into rigid gender roles helps him to understand Brienne's struggles with her masculinity), etc. These are qualities which are associated more strongly with House Tyrell than House Baratheon.
Hodor
10:06:49 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 71.57.52.184
I don't disagree with that interpretation, but there's a difference between saying that Renly has personality qualities that make him a good fit with House Tyrell (something that would be good to put on the Analysis tab) and saying that "the show presents Renly as a Tyrell who happens to have the Baratheon name" (which is what you are saying and is just like your opinion, man).

I think a lot of your opinions are quite plausible, but they are still your opinions, unless there is some direct statement of intent by the showrunners, people in the production staff, etc.

As a contrast, take the case of Theon- Theon clearly dresses more like a Stark when living at Winterfell and then changes to an Iron Islands dress style when he returns home/betrays Robb. Theon later is given a quote about Ned being his true father. In Theon's case, there is a lot more direct show evidence about his clothing and its symbolism.

Also, you kind of have a Single-Issue Wonk about how Renly was the greatest guy ever and how his romance with Loras is the greatest thing ever...
siberia82
10:11:02 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 174.93.166.176
Hodor, Cersei is a main character, so she's obviously going to have a variety of gowns, so I agree that in her case, the colours don't necessarily say anything meaningful about her personality. But Renly is only a secondary character, so his number of outfits are extremely limited in comparison. The fact that Clapton clothed him only black (with the exception of the tourney) in Season 1 strongly indicates to me that she was trying to show that at the point in this series, Renly is loyal to Robert, since he is on the king's small council. Clapton could've chosen to dress Renly in a yellow brocade cloak for the joust, as yellow is a colour of House Baratheon, but the green was selected on purpose.
Hodor
10:13:29 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 71.57.52.184
While plausible, you do not have evidence that that was Clapton's intent.

What is so hard about just putting that in the Analysis tab or WMG and not insisting that your interpretation had to be the intent?

I'd note that Renly wears gold/yellow and green in the books, and so it seems equally plausible to me that (typically) the show wanted to have him wear something like he wore in the books, but in a more muted/drab direction.

LogoP
10:17:51 AM Feb 13th 2014
edited by 78.87.166.108
I'm with Hodor in this.

Whatever the case with the colors might be, what you claim is merely a (granted, plausible) theory concerning a trope that deals with facts. Thus, it has no place on the YMMV page and it should go to the WMG one (or an analysis page, as Hodor stated).

On a sidenote, we've really been through this before with that Harsher in Hindsight issue. It's the discussion right bellow this one.
Hodor
10:21:09 AM Feb 13th 2014
Thank-you. And yes, there's an obvious Single-Issue Wonk here.
CaptainCrawdad
topic
02:37:48 PM Feb 3rd 2014
Removed from Harsher in Hindsight:

  • Renly casually agreeing with Loras' assessment that Joffrey is a monster in Season 1 becomes a bit chilling after the revelation in Season 3 that Joff wants to execute all homosexuals (and the boy-king is very much aware of his "Uncle" Renly's sexuality). Renly no doubt had to put up with his "nephew's" constant taunts for being a "degenerate," and he was probably perceptive enough to know that the overly cruel Joffrey not only hated him for being gay, but even wanted to kill him for it, but was restrained solely by the fact that Robert would strongly disapprove of this action.

First of all correct me if I'm wrong but I think this trope is usually for real world events striking chords with the work's plot. If not, I still think this entry is too much conjecture. The entry asserts that Joffrey was ridiculing Renly to his face for his homosexuality. That's quite an assumption. It never happens onscreen or is implied to happen anywhere.

Everything we've seen has shown that Joffrey doesn't stand up for himself when his elders are around. If he's going to cower from Tyrion, who nobody likes, how could he get away with airing such dirty family laundry at well-loved Renly with impunity?

It's also pretty well established that Renly's homosexuality is a well-known secret, but people don't bring it up to his face. He thinks people don't know. If Joffrey knew about it, he'd be making the same jokes behind Renly's back as everyone else.

Also, the entry assumes that Joffrey has long-spanning and deep-seated anti-homosexual feelings since childhood. It's never established that Joffrey thought much about homosexuality at all before a homosexual tried to take his throne.
Hodor
02:47:59 PM Feb 3rd 2014
Totally agree. Also, IIRC it was news to Joffrey that Renly was gay (I can't remember all the details, but Margaery basically brings it up in the context of explaining away her previous ties with Renly/to stoke Joffrey's ego (innuendo intended)).

And yeah, as you wisely note, Joffrey is a Dirty Coward- he wouldn't have dared (at least not before he was king) making those kind of comments about Renly (assuming he did know about Renly's sexuality).

Also, Joffrey being Joffrey, there's really a whole lot of behavior Renly could have witnessed that would lead him to label Joffrey a "monster". In particular, Stannis in the book recalls Joffrey vivisecting a pregnant cat- I figure this might come up in the show, and my fanon is that this is probably also something Renly might have witnessed or heard about.
siberia82
06:01:23 PM Feb 3rd 2014
edited by 174.93.166.176
Just to clarify, Cersei refers to Renly as "a known degenerate" to Joffrey in a scene from "Dark Wings, Dark Words" which preceded the one where Joff summons Margaery to his chambers. Joffrey wasn't at all surprised by Cersei's statement, which indicates to me he must have known that Renly was gay for some time.

Just before their mother-son talk (when Renly hasn't been mentioned yet), he makes a big fuss about not wanting to wear flowers to the tailor, and it becomes obvious from his "death to degenerates" statement to Margaery later on that he loathes flowers because he thinks they're effeminate. (And guess what, her brother is known as the Knight of Flowers—since Joff is aware that Renly is gay, he must suspect that Loras is too, as the rumours are always about the two of them as a couple. Hating gays as much as he does, Joffrey would want to avoid flowers like the plague.) I think this is a fairly concrete hint that Joff has been homophobic for a while.

TV!Renly is not assertive like Tyrion. Joffrey only cowers around Tyrion because the latter slaps him into submission. I can't picture Renly being physically abusive towards anyone, not even a shithead like Joff, so Renly would be an easy target for his taunts. Robert was totally in denial of Renly's homosexuality (remember when Robert asked his youngest brother "Have you ever fucked a Riverlands girl?"), so even if Renly complained about Joffrey's mocking behaviour, Robert's reaction would be something like, "Oh please. My son was just saying that because he thinks you're not a 'real man', and I agree with him. Forget about masquerade balls and start learning how to use a sword properly. Then the jokes will stop."
Hodor
06:22:56 PM Feb 3rd 2014
There's no in-show evidence whatsoever that "Renly no doubt had to put up with his "nephew's" constant taunts for being a "degenerate," and he was probably perceptive enough to know that the overly cruel Joffrey not only hated him for being gay, but even wanted to kill him for it, but was restrained solely by the fact that Robert would strongly disapprove of this action".

I agree that Joffrey was certainly homophobic for a while prior to that scene, but there's no evidence that Joffrey had known for a long while that Renly was gay, and if he had, that he had taunted Renly about it. For one thing, my sense is that talk of Renly being gay really came out (pardon the pun) once he declared himself King, and if Robert didn't know that Renly was gay, it doesn't seem likely that Joffrey would either (I'd also note that Robert spent very little time with Joffrey and Renly seemed to want to avoid spending too much time with Robert, so I don't see that much interaction between the three).

I mean it is certainly plausible that if Joffrey had previously made homophobic remarks out loud (which we don't know if he did, but it seems plausible) that this would be one of the reasons why Renly hated him, but everything else in your post in conjecture (fan fiction?)

Also, I wasn't suggesting that Renly would slap Joffrey around, more that Tyrion would if in earshot. I also think that while neither Robert nor Cersei would really care about Joffrey making fun of Renly, if Joffrey actually made some kind of direct reference to Renly's homosexuality/a threat, they would shut Joffrey up pretty quickly (and again, there's no evidence that Joffrey had known of Renly's sexuality during Robert's life time).
siberia82
09:21:18 PM Feb 3rd 2014
edited by 174.93.166.176
Cersei was the one who raised Joffrey, not Robert, and Cersei certainly knew about Renly's sexuality even before the series began (she does have her own spies, after all). If you doubt that, then Jaime at least claimed to have known that Renly was a "tulip" (hey, it's the flower metaphor again) since the boy first arrived at court, so at one point he must have shared that piece of gossip with Cersei, if for no other reason than to crack a gay joke (which he clearly enjoys doing). In Season 1, Littlefinger is very much aware of Renly's relationship with Loras (and I think it's safe to assume that he was informed about their affair a long time ago because he has a lot more spies than Cersei), so even at this early stage, Renly and Loras' romance is an Open Secret at court. Even if Joffrey ignored the rumours about the two men (which I doubt), Cersei would at least mention their homosexuality when he was old enough to understand these things as part of her "anyone who isn't us is an enemy" lesson so that Joff could potentially use this knowledge against them one day.

Littlefinger openly mocked Renly's sexuality in his face at the Tourney of the Hand ("...when will you be having your friend?"), which is a very public event, and everyone around them in the stands could hear their conversation as the two men were not whispering. Renly instantly became fearful and immediately halted his snarky comments, and Petyr even managed to squeeze in a smug smirk before sitting down. If a minor noble like Littlefinger can freely poke fun at the king's youngest brother and the Lord of Storm's End for being gay in front of a crowd without suffering any consequences (not even a verbal threat), then Prince Joffrey could get away with at least that (and probably more). Renly's high status and likeability clearly don't protect him from personal or public ridicule.

Joff is nothing if not a bully, and bullies love to pick on easy targets (which Renly definitely is if he can't even get the lowly-ranked and reviled Petyr to shut his trap). With that in mind, I find it hard to believe than an extreme homophobe like Joffrey (who isn't just disgusted by gays, but actually wants them eliminated) wouldn't at least pick up on the gossip (or learn the truth from his mother), and then use the information to make the life of his "degenerate" uncle more miserable. Joff gets a kick out of humiliating others, and he won't be punished for mocking Renly (not even a literal slap on the wrist, as the Petyr example shows), so what's to stop him? The boy is a psychopath who only fears his "father's" wrath, and Robert himself belittles Renly's masculinity.

I thought YMMV page allowed for a little more flexibility in how we interpret what we see on the show. This trope is called Harsher in Hindsight, and I do find Loras' "Joffrey is a monster" line to be slightly more disturbing now after watching "Dark Wings, Dark Words". It suddenly made me consider for the first time that Renly views Joff this way not just because he had witnessed him do horrible things (like cutting open a pregnant cat as stated in the novels), but it would be very much in Joffrey's cruel nature to spew (figurative) filth at Non-Action Guy Renly for being gay, since inflicting actual physical harm is out of the question for as long as Robert is king. Renly is quite good at reading people, and he would notice that Joff's wickedness worsens as he gets older and gains more power; it's only a matter of time before his "nephew" tortures and/or executes anyone he despises ("degenerates" included).

If I find a way to reword my entry for this trope, would it be more acceptable, or is my new interpretation of what "Joffrey is a monster" could mean wholly invalid?
Hodor
08:49:39 AM Feb 4th 2014
edited by 71.57.52.184
I think that Joffrey's later expression of homophobia does lead to some Fridge Horror/ Fridge Brilliance in terms of an additional reason why Renly and Loras hated him (besides all the other reasons).

However, there is no evidence in the show whatsoever about Joffrey tormenting Renly in public or private with homophobic comments. It's not something Renly ever mentions, nor does anyone else, including Joffrey himself (who actually seems to be somewhat surprised to lean or Renly's homosexuality in his conversation with Margaery).

I also think that to some degree, the show went too far with the sexuality being an Open Secret, and your speculation is a Watsonian reaction to that (this isn't a criticism of you, more of the show). What I mean, is that earlier in the show, Renly and Loras' sexuality does seem to be an actual secret, but seems to become increasingly well known over time, to the effect that one would wonder in retrospect, how Joffrey (or Robert) wouldn't have known about it.

However, my take on things is that since Robert was ignorant of it (kind of doesn't speak well to his relationship with his brother), I think that suggests there wasn't open mockery of Renly going on, or else Robert would have known about it. And I'd kind of be wary about taking Littlefinger as representative of court behavior, as his character is written as someone who is pretty reckless about mocking his social betters (see that disastrous scene where he tried that with Cersei).

Also, while this is admittedly my speculation, I think that while Robert was a jerk to Renly, he probably would not be cool with Joffrey mocking his brother, especially in public.

Moreover, I don't have "evidence" of this, but given the precedent with Jaime and Cersei's incest, my sense is that while some people in the court were always "in the know", talk about Renly's sexuality didn't happen in the open until after Renly became an enemy claimant to the throne, and more so after his death. As a corrolary of that, in part because he rejoined the Lannister side, there doesn't seem to be as much talk about Loras' sexuality (hard as it may be to believe, he still largely has the public image of dashing knight who is an eligible bachelor).

CaptainCrawdad
12:45:54 PM Feb 7th 2014
If I find a way to reword my entry for this trope, would it be more acceptable, or is my new interpretation of what "Joffrey is a monster" could mean wholly invalid?

I think it's Wild Mass Guessing. WMG is for making speculations and drawing conclusions about a work that are never (or have not yet been) addressed by the work itself. If you're adding your own content (in this case imagining that Joffrey and Renly have quarreled over Renly's homosexuality) then it's Wild Mass Guessing.

YMMV tropes are about subjective fan reactions to the show, but only to what's in the show itself. Compare the existing Harsher in Hindsight example, in which Theon's frontal nudity is harsher after he gets castrated. Those are two definite events in the show. No speculated content is needed. I can't add Bronn as a Magnificent Bastard because I've decided that he's manipulating all sides against the others. That's not portrayed in the show, so my reaction to it is irrelevant.
LogoP
04:16:16 AM Feb 9th 2014
In short, what Captain Crawdad said. I can't say that this isn't a solid theory but it's pure speculation and, thus, it does not belong here. Putting it under Harsher in Hindsight would be misuse. Not just because the trope is only concerned with facts. Its very meaning boils down to: tragic scene worsened by later tragic prophetic event. Loras calling Joffrey a monster can hardly be considered "tragic".

All and all, better take this to the WMG page. It has strength, as a theory.
LogoP
topic
07:23:59 AM Jul 17th 2013
So, why were all the CM examples removed?
TrollBrutal
07:43:15 AM Jul 17th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.42
Odd, I thought they were being moved to a separated page, enough volume to justify it I guess, like in "Memetic Mutation : Has its own page" , but they have been confined to Live-Action TV

It seems the cleanup thread decided it that way.
LogoP
07:48:46 AM Jul 17th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.43
OK then. Is this TV only or it'll aply to literature too? I mean, can we still create a CM subpage here? Like in ASOIAF.
Shaoken
05:07:25 AM Jul 22nd 2013
We made no such decision. If a work has its own monster subpage we link to that, but last I check Game of Thrones didn't and there should have been a link provided. The mod In question acted without talking it over with the thread.
LogoP
12:01:54 PM Jul 22nd 2013
edited by 70.33.253.44
Issue is now fixed. It was just a misunderstanding. So, are the examples enough to create a CM subpage for GOT or we wait until S4?
Shaoken
02:38:27 AM Sep 18th 2013
There needs to be at least three, but it would usually take a lot more to justify creating a new subpage (or if the word length for the YMMV page was getting too long and we needed to start trimming).
LogoP
topic
12:17:33 PM Jul 15th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.42
Regarding Daario Naharis. I'd like to ask if you think he's considered The Scrappy by a large number of viewers. Large enough to put him on the YMMV page. While Book!Daario is clearly hated by many book fans, TV!Daario didn't get a lot of screentime or characterization during this season. I think some people fail to make distinctions between mediums and act based on their book prejudices. So my question is: Do you think that TV!Daario is disliked by a substantial number of fans to qualify as The Scrappy? Or he should be cut?
yojoe
05:54:52 AM Jul 24th 2013
I hated him precisely because I felt he was being presented as a character the audience is supposed to like, but it didn't feel earned it just felt forced. For me, he's definitely a Scrappy right now.
Larkmarn
07:44:25 AM Jul 24th 2013
I can't speak for anyone else, but OP is correct in that TV Daario didn't get a lot of screentime or characterization... and yet he was just presented as a prettyboy One-Man Army and took screentime from the guys we do really like.

Given Game of Thrones has a much broader base than the books, I don't think that the books are affecting it. I personally haven't touched the books.
CaptainCrawdad
08:14:17 AM Jul 24th 2013
I've never been a fan of the negative tropes because they brush too closely to complaining about things you don't like about shows, which isn't what this site is supposed to be about. Unless there's some sort of major, well-known backlash against a character, I don't think it bears mentioning. If people want to express their criticisms, they can always write a review.
LogoP
05:29:33 PM Jul 24th 2013
I've been thinking that since TV!Daario has gotten so little screentime, should we delete his scrappy status (for now) and wait until next season. He's character will be probably fleshed out and, if he still gets a lot of fan hate, we can safely re-add him. What do you think?
Mistermister
topic
09:32:11 AM Jun 21st 2013
So is Walder Frey a Complete Monster in the adaptation? There was a discussion about it in the cleanup page earlier, and most people seem to be in favor for adding him in. He is more villainous than his book counterpart, which is quite the accomplishment. Are we holding him off until he possibly dies?
CaptainCrawdad
12:21:34 PM Jun 21st 2013
Looking at the requirements for Complete monster:

  • Truly heinous by the standards of the story - Yes, he slaughtered many sympathetic characters, laughs about it, and violates guest right, the worst crime in Westeros.

  • Evokes fear, revulsion and hatred from other characters - Not really. He's only just recently made his Face-Heel Turn. While a lot of people talk about how unpleasant Walder is, we really haven't progressed enough in the story for him to have become notorious.

  • Devoid of altruistic qualities - Yes. Everything he does is for pride or self-interest.

So it's about 2 1/4 out of 3 requirements by my estimation.
Mistermister
01:12:59 PM Jun 21st 2013
Ok, that's good enough to know. We'll have to wait if he makes anymore appearances then.
Shaoken
05:04:50 AM Jun 24th 2013
You could get away with adding him in now since Bran's story exposition explained that violating sacred hospitality is a massive no-no in Westeros, he gets the fear and revulsion down from the massacre scene, and waiting a whole year just to add one entry is a bit of overkill.
LogoP
09:09:57 AM Jul 6th 2013
I remember visiting the Complete Monster thread and general consensus was that TV!Walder (though not Book!Walder) qualifies. I think tha waiting an entire year just to add an example is too much. He should be added.
CaptainCrawdad
10:35:04 AM Jul 6th 2013
Why would the TV version qualify and not the Series version?
Larkmarn
10:56:01 AM Jul 6th 2013
My guess? More "well, he's clearly enjoying this" shots, and the fact he apparently opened his attack by having his men stab a pregnant women in the belly repeatedly in front of her husband. Plus he gave up his wife and dismissed her as replaceable.
LogoP
03:20:42 AM Jul 7th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.43
This. Plus his Evil Gloating afterwards and general Smug Snake attitude helped establish hm as much nastier than his book counterpart. Not to mention that Book!Walder was surrounded by much worse monsters (e.g. Ramsay, the Moutnain, Vargo Hoat, Rorge, Biter Euron, LF e.t.c.) while in the TV series only Ramsay comes close to that level of monstrosity. And he's still toned down compared to his book version. So, the lack of heinous monsters in the series compared to the books highlight's Walder's own despicable nature.
CaptainCrawdad
03:39:37 AM Jul 7th 2013
I don't really see a big discrepancy between the two versions, but I have no dog in that fight.
Shaoken
03:48:42 AM Jul 7th 2013
Basically the series version has redeeming qualities; his son who he loved was killed during the war fighting for Robb and Robb basically betraying their arrangement meant his son's death was worthless, so he does have more of a reason to want vengeance. Show!Walder also has the enjoying it thing going for him, plus there being less C Ms for him to compete with.
LogoP
04:04:20 AM Jul 7th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.45
So, what it's gonna be? We add him or not? He has my vote.
TrollBrutal
04:45:09 AM Jul 7th 2013
The logic behind some medium distinctions escapes me, when I argued about the Mountain killing Ser Hugh in a tournament not being presented as a very big deal in the show, arguments from the books were brought up, including material from the Hedge Knight...
LogoP
12:23:30 PM Jul 10th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.45
So, any suggested write-ups for Walder Frey's CM entry? Assuming he qualifies, of course.
Larkmarn
12:37:36 PM Jul 10th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
Just whipped this up:

  • Walder Frey. While he's somewhat repugnant in his first appearance, he seems to be a fairly competent ruler and willing to help the heroes, for a price. His next appearance even has him come across as a Cool Old Guy, forgiving Robb's slight against him. Then come The Red Wedding, which opens with Robb's pregnant wife being stabbed repeatedly in the stomach, Robb, Catelyn, and the Stark Bannermen being murdered in a massive violation of guest right, laughing and eating the whole time. To top it off, when his wife is held hostage, he simply tells the hostage taker to kill her, she's expendable. To drive the point home, he begins the next episode by recounting the Red Wedding with glee, showing no remorse and celebrating the power his betrayal has brought him.

I personally think he qualifies. He's completely devoid of any positive attributes. Even the idea that he's done the things he did for the betterment of his family is clearly not the case since he did not care in the slightest that his wife was killed. And he did not exactly seem terribly fond of any of his daughters, anyway. Just means to him getting some power.
LogoP
03:01:16 PM Jul 10th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.44
Replace Wham Episode with Moral Event Horizon and this write-up is perfect. Good work. Now the only thing that's left for us to do is to reach a consensus here too. The CM thread is leaning too, torwards yes. One more thing. If we decide to add him, should we consider the possibility of creating a Complete Monster sub-page for GOT?

EDIT- I just visited the CM thread and I have been informed that the verdict on Walder was a clear keep. Adding him.
LogoP
topic
01:25:19 PM May 29th 2013
I think that the CompleteMonster entry for Gregor Clegane should be deleted. Yesm he is definately one in the books but in the show? Most of it is offscreen. Yes he raped women and girls and butchered Elia and her childern e.t.c. but all of these either come from backround material or/references by other characters. He just fails on the heinous standar. Especialy compared to other characters like Locke and the Boy who aren't even listed.
IronLion
01:30:37 PM May 29th 2013
I'm inclined to agree (for now, at least). His first few minutes painted him as a monster quite clearly, but two and a half seasons later, most non-book-reading viewers are likely to have forgotten who he is or why they're supposed to be appalled by him.

Mind you, regarding the Offstage Villainy, the majority of his deeds in the book are learned about through dialogue or POV introspection, and he's none the less monstrous for it.
LogoP
01:41:58 AM May 30th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.43
Yes but we learn about most of Ramsay Bolton's atrocities in the books too, don't we? Mostly Theon. But that's because they are books, they write and tell, don't show. I believe we should wait until the whole arc with Elia and the Red Viper comes up, then put him under the CM list.
TrollBrutal
02:58:17 AM May 30th 2013
I'd cut the Mountain, per current guidelines of the trope, Offscreen Villainy is a major disqualifier. Most of his deeds are conveyed through exposition.

It probably needs to be adressed in the clean-up thread http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=530 (maybe it was once, I don't know how to search for it in that behemoth)
Shaoken
03:30:20 AM May 30th 2013
As someone who joined the thread pretty early on I can say that the only Game of Thrones villian who was brought up was The Boy, who was agreed to count but as a rule we hold off on introducing characters until the season/arc is over after a rash of tropers rushing to add a character because they were a dick in one episode, and then three episodes later got character development that pushed them so far out of Complete Monster territory it wasn't funny.

Anyway, just take it to the thread Troll Brutal linked to and state your case.
TweaktheWhacked
topic
08:02:04 PM May 25th 2013
I understand that I am in a vast minority when it comes to my preference for Talisa over Jeyne, but I'm becoming increasingly annoyed with this wiki's bias against Talisa and favor for the book's sequence of events in the YMMV section.

I had no problem with Talisa being listed under Base Breaker and even The Scrappy- the fandom is against her enough that these entries are justified, even if their reasoning isn't.

In the books, Robb, off screen, marries a woman on the opposite side of the war because he took her virginity. This is a monumentally stupid move any way you slice it, no matter how often the word "honor" is thrown around. He didn't get her pregnant, he didn't owe her family anything, and the whole mess isn't even that much of a scandal anyway as most of Westeros accepts(even if they aren't going to talk about it publicly) that noble daughters often lose their maidenheads before marriage. He doesn't love her, he never claims to love her, the alliance brings him fifty men in exchange for the thousands of Freys he loses, all because she "comforted" him one night after he learned some bad news. This is him taking his father's Honor Before Reason philosophy to an idiotic extreme that's impossible to justify; Ned brought home a bastard boy, not a wife.

In the show, we see Robb and Talisa meet, grow to respect one another, fall in love. We see Robb grapple with his pain from losing his father, from Theon's betrayal, from his mother's betrayal. We see Robb struggle with the bitterness of having to marry a woman he's never met for a bridge, due to his traitor mother's atrocious negotiation skills, and the icing on the cake is that it was all for nothing because his father died anyway.

I have little doubt that had Robb and Jeyne's story been shown in length in the books, fans would have called him an idiot there to because breaking the vow with the Freys for "honor" is no more or less stupid than doing it for "love".

Now, I'm of the opinion that Talisa is a better character than Jeyne based soley on the fact that Jeyne isn't a character, she's an Idiot Ball that was forced in Robb's hands by Martin, a blatant and undeniable plot device. But if people dislike her, that's fine.

But do not sit there and tell me that the decision in the book wasn't a stupid decision. Perhaps a more justifiable one given that Robb's younger in the books, but it's still a stupid decision. And it would be every bit as stupid if the show had gone with that decision instead of the one we saw, because that is the point. The point is that whatever the reason, breaking the vow with the Freys is a stupid decision that gets Robb killed.
LogoP
08:42:58 AM May 26th 2013
So what exactly are you suggesting?
CaptainCrawdad
09:12:12 AM May 26th 2013
Take it to a messageboard or write a review. This place is for discussing issues concerning the tropes.
TweaktheWhacked
01:40:37 AM May 30th 2013
I'm suggesting that entries regarding the subject be edited to show less bias. I apologize that got lost in my rant.
LogoP
01:45:02 AM May 30th 2013
edited by 70.33.253.44
In that case RepairDontRespond my friend. Just make sure to give good reason for the changes you make.
DorianMode
topic
12:47:10 AM May 21st 2013
Howzabout Daenerys Targaryen as Mary Sue Classic? Reconstructed, perhaps, or really just played surprisingly straight: Beautiful, Blonde, Purple-Eyed, princess-in-exile, with three(!) pet dragons, and everyone loves her, and she frees slaves and kicks ass because she's so very cool. And she has this bodyguard who loves her. And this other bodyguard who's the best swordsman in the world. And this army of slave-soldiers who do whatever she tells them and feel no pain, except they're not slaves anymore because she freed them so they're all following her anyway. And this other army of mercenaries who're following her because the captain is in love with her and he killed the guys who weren't in love with her and yadda yadda yadda.

I'm not saying she's a BAD character per se, just that it sounds like George R. R. Martin had a 13-year old niece who came up with her own character and demanded she be included in his books. And bless him, he just decided to run with it full tilt.
MatthewTheRaven
03:56:27 PM May 22nd 2013
I was going to post some arguments against this, but I realized that Storm of Swords represents Daenerys at her apex, before she shows a lot of flaws and incompetence in A Dance With Dragons.
TompaDompa
08:43:51 AM May 23rd 2013
She is fairly Sue-ish, that cannot be denied. However, she is bested by others repeatedly (Mirri Maz Duur, Pyat Pree, and Xaro Xhoan Daxos come to mind). She usually ends up on top, though.

Moreover, she's na´ve, whiny, and entitled. The Spice King of Qarth points that out more than once, and he's clearly portrayed as in the right on those occasions.
Shaoken
05:14:31 AM May 25th 2013
She falls short because like Tompa said she doesn't come out on top all the time, it's often pointed out several times when she's being an idiot, at least one of those times bit her in the ass hard (good work thinking that just because you stopped some rape you're going to be instantly forgiven for slaughtering entire villages), and considering the tone of the work (and because I've peeked at some spoilers) things are eventually going to get worse for Daenerys.
DorianMode
01:38:40 AM Jun 11th 2013
So maybe a deconstruction, as in, this is how people would actually react to a character like that? I feel like she hits too many Sue Notes for it too be ignored entirely...
LogoP
topic
06:00:23 AM May 20th 2013
The Esemble Darkhorse list is getting long. Is it possible to create a subpage?
Shaoken
05:11:09 AM May 25th 2013
From the looks of it ED was suffering misuse from people who thought it meant One-Scene Wonder, so it's probably better off cut short.
Shaoken
topic
11:47:34 PM May 16th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.8
Removed Theon from Moral Event Horizon. What he does isn't that disimilar to Jamie killing Jorah and his own cousin as well as the attempted murder of Bran, or the Hound killing the butcher's boy and Stark bannermen, and niether are considered to have passed the Moral Event Horizon. Theon also has the excused of caving to pressure from the Iron born and even admits that he's doing evil things while thinking he's gone too far while the Maester says he's not a lost cause, so him becoming The Atoner after a Heel-Face Turn is perfectly plausable which flies in the face of what Moral Event Horizon.
TweaktheWhacked
08:05:42 PM May 25th 2013
Not that it matters, but Season 3 reveals that Theon didn't kill the boys himself, or even command it; he simply let Dagmar do it. Which is still horrible, but not necessarily MEH worthy.
LogoP
topic
07:32:55 AM May 10th 2013
Why do people keep deleting the CM entry about the Boy? Yes, I agree that spoilers about his identity should be deleted. But judging from his recent actions, I think he fits the bill for CM status. And unlike Gregor Clegane everything he does happens on-screen.
lrrose
08:37:32 AM May 10th 2013
Because constant misuse of the CM trope has led to a requirement that all examples go through this thread first.
NonoRobot
08:41:47 AM May 10th 2013
If you want to give someone the CM status, you have to discuss it first there : http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=1

On a side note, the Complete Monster trope page really should give a link to this discussion in the forums.
Shaoken
11:45:33 PM May 16th 2013
Also as a rule Complete Monster candidates can only be introduced once the season/arc is over after a rash of tropers jumped the gun and through anyone who did something bad only for them to undergo further development later and moving well out of CM territory. The Boy probably won't get any redeeming features, but we're trying to stamp out the many, many bad habits that keep plaguing Complete Monster.

As for the page not having a link, that's Fast Eddie's call. He wants to keep pages as presented exclusively for readers and keep anything that concerns editors commented out.
lrrose
topic
09:46:07 AM Apr 1st 2013
Creator's Pet:

I removed Ros and Littlefinger for failing the criteria.

A Creator's Pet needs to meet the following four criteria:

1. Hated by fans:
  • It's safe to say that this is the case with Ros. Not so much with Littlefinger.

2. Loved (or worshipped) by the writers:
  • Hard to tell. I'll give both examples the benefit of the doubt though.

3. Put into big scenes for no reason:
  • I'll concede this for both.

4. Talked up by other characters:
  • Both of them fail to meet this criteria. Ros goes through a Trauma Conga Line in Season 2 and no one seems to respect her for anything other than her skills in bed. Pretty much every character considers Littlefinger to be an untrustworthy weasel.

Ros and Littlefinger fail to meet the criteria for a Creator's Pet.
LogoP
08:40:50 AM May 1st 2014
edited by 79.103.194.131
Nevermind
back to YMMV/GameOfThrones

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