History YMMV / GameOfThrones

19th Oct '17 3:53:34 PM JulianLapostat
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** A lot of viewers feel this way about the show's version of Jon Snow, with even Kristian Nairn (who played Hodor) while praising [[http://gameoflaughs.com/game-of-thrones-star-kristian-nairn-says-he-was-glad-jon-snow-got-stabbed/ Kit Harington's performance]], lamented that the character he played was boring[[labelnote:From the Books]]Book readers note that this is a result of the show softening and dialing down his character's more original traits and flaws, especially dialing down his intelligence and aloofness, and his greater political awareness and strategic competence[[/labelnote]]. Unlike the other Stark children (Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb) or Tyrion, Jaime, Stannis and Daenerys, Jon Snow is more or less a standard fantasy hero played straight complete with GoodIsDumb and PlotArmour, and unlike other "good" characters in the show (such as Ned Stark) with very few instances of actual morally compromising choices and decisions to make. His actions and achievements are also subject to benefiting of other people's help (such as the Vale arriving in time to bail him out in the Battle of the Bastards, and Stannis coming in time to save him and crush Mance Rayder), with much InformedAttribute (such as becoming King in the North, despite a weak claim, poor military leadership and generally spotty record).
19th Oct '17 3:15:15 PM EO01163
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19th Oct '17 3:14:49 PM EO01163
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** A lot of viewers feel this way about the show's version of Jon Snow, with even Kristian Nairn (who played Hodor) while praising [[http://gameoflaughs.com/game-of-thrones-star-kristian-nairn-says-he-was-glad-jon-snow-got-stabbed/ Kit Harington's performance]], lamented that the character he played was boring[[labelnote:From the Books]]Book readers note that this is a result of the show softening and dialing down his character's more original traits and flaws, especially dialing down his intelligence and aloofness, and his greater political awareness and strategic competence[[/labelnote]]. Unlike the other Stark children (Bran, Arya, Sansa, Robb) or Tyrion, Jaime, Stannis and Daenerys, Jon Snow is more or less a standard fantasy hero played straight complete with GoodIsDumb and PlotArmour, and unlike other "good" characters in the show (such as Ned Stark) with very few instances of actual morally compromising choices and decisions to make. His actions and achievements are also subject to benefiting of other people's help (such as the Vale arriving in time to bail him out in the Battle of the Bastards, and Stannis coming in time to save him and crush Mance Rayder), with much InformedAttribute (such as becoming King in the North, despite a weak claim, poor military leadership and generally spotty record).
9th Oct '17 9:38:45 AM DrakeClawfang
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* CommonKnowledge: When Season 7 ended, a few viewers [[spoiler:raised the issue that Ned passing Jon off as his illegitimate son should have raised suspicions from more than a few individuals InUniverse since some fans of the books realized Jon was the son of Lyanna Stark, Ned's ''sister'', and Rhaegar Targaryen long before the reveal on the show. However, leaving aside InUniverse debates, the notion that R+L=J was an obvious twist and immediately figured out by fans is not true at all. It was [[https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/8/30/16213394/r-l-j-game-of-thrones-fandom-oral-history an obscure theory]] that only a few readers picked up on and that it was only the rise of internet fandom that spread the theory and popularized it. It was indeed very hard and not immediately picked upon by readers and it indeed surprised many who first came across it only to re-read the books and realize that it was cleverly placed RightUnderTheirNoses]].
** Some [[http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-review.html critical observers]] who largely review the show have seen the problems of the series in the later seasons as stemming from the showrunners "running out of material", and put some of the blame for the show's structure on the fact that Creator/GeorgeRRMartin left them an incomplete set of novels to work with after the first three. As fans of the books pointed out Martin published four novels before season one began production, and the fifth one came out in the same year of its airing. He has also released eleven chapters from the work-in-progress ''The Winds of Winter''. When one considers that Book 3, ''Literature/AStormOfSwords'' was split into two seasons, a number of fans argued that whatever issues the show had, "lack of material" from the books wasn't one of them, since a faithful adaptation of ''Literature/AFeastForCrows'' and especially ''Literature/ADanceWithDragons'' had enough material for three full seasons, and yet the corresponding seasons took a CompressedAdaptation approach and shortened the material into less than two seasons (when before the median length novel of the series at least had a full season's worth of material for the show), with the showrunners stating that they plan to wrap up the show in a hurry and that they never really expected to expand beyond seven seasons, this despite the author making it clear that his final two books will be {{Doorstopper}} and highly dense works. So whatever issues the show had, be it the logistics of mounting a large scale production on television or maintaining a cast for such a length of time, the real issues were never "lack of material".

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* CommonKnowledge: CommonKnowledge:
**
When Season 7 ended, a few viewers [[spoiler:raised the issue that Ned passing Jon off revelation of [[spoiler:Jon Snow's parentage]] was revealed, it was regarded as his illegitimate son should have raised suspicions from more than a few individuals InUniverse CaptainObvious reveal by book and show fans alike, since some the theories about them had been hotly discussed and publicized and even many show fans of knew about the books realized Jon was the son of Lyanna Stark, Ned's ''sister'', and Rhaegar Targaryen long before hints to the reveal on that the show. books dropped. However, leaving aside InUniverse debates, the notion that R+L=J was an twist wasn't really obvious twist and immediately figured out by fans is not true or widespread at all. It all, it was [[https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/8/30/16213394/r-l-j-game-of-thrones-fandom-oral-history an obscure theory]] that only a few readers picked up on and that it was only the rise of the internet fandom that spread the theory and popularized it. it seriously became considered as plausible. It was indeed very hard and not immediately picked upon by readers and it indeed surprised many who first came across it only to re-read the books and realize that it was cleverly placed RightUnderTheirNoses]].RightUnderTheirNoses.
** Some [[http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-review.html critical observers]] who largely review the show have seen the problems of the series in the later seasons as stemming from the showrunners "running out of material", and put some of the blame for the show's structure on the fact that Creator/GeorgeRRMartin left them an incomplete set of novels to work with after the first three. As fans of the books pointed out Martin published four novels before season one began production, and with. However, the fifth one book came out in the same year of its airing. He the show began, Martin has also released eleven several preview chapters from the work-in-progress ''The Winds of Winter''. When one considers that Book 3, ''Literature/AStormOfSwords'' was split into two seasons, a number of fans argued that whatever issues the show had, "lack of material" from the books wasn't one of them, since a faithful adaptation of ''Literature/AFeastForCrows'' Winter'', and especially ''Literature/ADanceWithDragons'' had enough material for three full seasons, and yet the corresponding seasons took a CompressedAdaptation approach and shortened the material into less than two seasons (when before the median length novel of the series at least had a full season's worth of material for the show), with Martin has given the showrunners stating that they plan foreknowledge of plot developments to wrap up happen in the show in a hurry and that they never really expected to expand beyond seven seasons, this despite the author making it clear that his final last two books will be {{Doorstopper}} and highly dense works. So whatever issues that he's still writing. While there are probably other concerns with keeping the show had, be it the going (the logistics of mounting filming around the world with a large scale production on television or maintaining a massive cast for such a length of time, the real issues were cannot be easy), there was never a problem with a "lack of material".
9th Oct '17 8:25:09 AM JulianLapostat
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Added DiffLines:

** Some [[http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-review.html critical observers]] who largely review the show have seen the problems of the series in the later seasons as stemming from the showrunners "running out of material", and put some of the blame for the show's structure on the fact that Creator/GeorgeRRMartin left them an incomplete set of novels to work with after the first three. As fans of the books pointed out Martin published four novels before season one began production, and the fifth one came out in the same year of its airing. He has also released eleven chapters from the work-in-progress ''The Winds of Winter''. When one considers that Book 3, ''Literature/AStormOfSwords'' was split into two seasons, a number of fans argued that whatever issues the show had, "lack of material" from the books wasn't one of them, since a faithful adaptation of ''Literature/AFeastForCrows'' and especially ''Literature/ADanceWithDragons'' had enough material for three full seasons, and yet the corresponding seasons took a CompressedAdaptation approach and shortened the material into less than two seasons (when before the median length novel of the series at least had a full season's worth of material for the show), with the showrunners stating that they plan to wrap up the show in a hurry and that they never really expected to expand beyond seven seasons, this despite the author making it clear that his final two books will be {{Doorstopper}} and highly dense works. So whatever issues the show had, be it the logistics of mounting a large scale production on television or maintaining a cast for such a length of time, the real issues were never "lack of material".
9th Oct '17 8:08:02 AM urutapu
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* CommonKnowledge:
** When Season 7 ended, a few viewers [[spoiler:raised the issue that Ned passing Jon off as his illegitimate son should have raised suspicions from more than a few individuals InUniverse since some fans of the books realized Jon was the son of Lyanna Stark, Ned's ''sister'', and Rhaegar Targaryen long before the reveal on the show. However, leaving aside InUniverse debates, the notion that R+L=J was an obvious twist and immediately figured out by fans is not true at all. It was [[https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/8/30/16213394/r-l-j-game-of-thrones-fandom-oral-history an obscure theory]] that only a few readers picked up on and that it was only the rise of internet fandom that spread the theory and popularized it. It was indeed very hard and not immediately picked upon by readers and it indeed surprised many who first came across it only to re-read the books and realize that it was cleverly placed RightUnderTheirNoses]].
** Some [[http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-review.html critical observers]] who largely review the show have seen the problems of the series in the later seasons as stemming from the showrunners "running out of material", and put some of the blame for the show's structure on the fact that Creator/GeorgeRRMartin left them an incomplete set of novels to work with after the first three. As fans of the books pointed out Martin published four novels before season one began production, and the fifth one came out in the same year of its airing. He has also released eleven chapters from the work-in-progress ''The Winds of Winter''. When one considers that Book 3, ''Literature/AStormOfSwords'' was split into two seasons, a number of fans argued that whatever issues the show had, "lack of material" from the books wasn't one of them, since a faithful adaptation of ''Literature/AFeastForCrows'' and especially ''Literature/ADanceWithDragons'' had enough material for three full seasons, and yet the corresponding seasons took a CompressedAdaptation approach and shortened the material into less than two seasons (when before the median length novel of the series at least had a full season's worth of material for the show), with the showrunners stating that they plan to wrap up the show in a hurry and that they never really expected to expand beyond seven seasons, this despite the author making it clear that his final two books will be {{Doorstopper}} and highly dense works. So whatever issues the show had, be it the logistics of mounting a large scale production on television or maintaining a cast for such a length of time, the real issues were never "lack of material".

to:

* CommonKnowledge:
**
CommonKnowledge: When Season 7 ended, a few viewers [[spoiler:raised the issue that Ned passing Jon off as his illegitimate son should have raised suspicions from more than a few individuals InUniverse since some fans of the books realized Jon was the son of Lyanna Stark, Ned's ''sister'', and Rhaegar Targaryen long before the reveal on the show. However, leaving aside InUniverse debates, the notion that R+L=J was an obvious twist and immediately figured out by fans is not true at all. It was [[https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/8/30/16213394/r-l-j-game-of-thrones-fandom-oral-history an obscure theory]] that only a few readers picked up on and that it was only the rise of internet fandom that spread the theory and popularized it. It was indeed very hard and not immediately picked upon by readers and it indeed surprised many who first came across it only to re-read the books and realize that it was cleverly placed RightUnderTheirNoses]]. \n** Some [[http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-review.html critical observers]] who largely review the show have seen the problems of the series in the later seasons as stemming from the showrunners "running out of material", and put some of the blame for the show's structure on the fact that Creator/GeorgeRRMartin left them an incomplete set of novels to work with after the first three. As fans of the books pointed out Martin published four novels before season one began production, and the fifth one came out in the same year of its airing. He has also released eleven chapters from the work-in-progress ''The Winds of Winter''. When one considers that Book 3, ''Literature/AStormOfSwords'' was split into two seasons, a number of fans argued that whatever issues the show had, "lack of material" from the books wasn't one of them, since a faithful adaptation of ''Literature/AFeastForCrows'' and especially ''Literature/ADanceWithDragons'' had enough material for three full seasons, and yet the corresponding seasons took a CompressedAdaptation approach and shortened the material into less than two seasons (when before the median length novel of the series at least had a full season's worth of material for the show), with the showrunners stating that they plan to wrap up the show in a hurry and that they never really expected to expand beyond seven seasons, this despite the author making it clear that his final two books will be {{Doorstopper}} and highly dense works. So whatever issues the show had, be it the logistics of mounting a large scale production on television or maintaining a cast for such a length of time, the real issues were never "lack of material".
8th Oct '17 6:09:37 PM MagBas
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Added DiffLines:

* CommonKnowledge:
** When Season 7 ended, a few viewers [[spoiler:raised the issue that Ned passing Jon off as his illegitimate son should have raised suspicions from more than a few individuals InUniverse since some fans of the books realized Jon was the son of Lyanna Stark, Ned's ''sister'', and Rhaegar Targaryen long before the reveal on the show. However, leaving aside InUniverse debates, the notion that R+L=J was an obvious twist and immediately figured out by fans is not true at all. It was [[https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/8/30/16213394/r-l-j-game-of-thrones-fandom-oral-history an obscure theory]] that only a few readers picked up on and that it was only the rise of internet fandom that spread the theory and popularized it. It was indeed very hard and not immediately picked upon by readers and it indeed surprised many who first came across it only to re-read the books and realize that it was cleverly placed RightUnderTheirNoses]].
** Some [[http://www.vulture.com/2017/08/game-of-thrones-season-7-review.html critical observers]] who largely review the show have seen the problems of the series in the later seasons as stemming from the showrunners "running out of material", and put some of the blame for the show's structure on the fact that Creator/GeorgeRRMartin left them an incomplete set of novels to work with after the first three. As fans of the books pointed out Martin published four novels before season one began production, and the fifth one came out in the same year of its airing. He has also released eleven chapters from the work-in-progress ''The Winds of Winter''. When one considers that Book 3, ''Literature/AStormOfSwords'' was split into two seasons, a number of fans argued that whatever issues the show had, "lack of material" from the books wasn't one of them, since a faithful adaptation of ''Literature/AFeastForCrows'' and especially ''Literature/ADanceWithDragons'' had enough material for three full seasons, and yet the corresponding seasons took a CompressedAdaptation approach and shortened the material into less than two seasons (when before the median length novel of the series at least had a full season's worth of material for the show), with the showrunners stating that they plan to wrap up the show in a hurry and that they never really expected to expand beyond seven seasons, this despite the author making it clear that his final two books will be {{Doorstopper}} and highly dense works. So whatever issues the show had, be it the logistics of mounting a large scale production on television or maintaining a cast for such a length of time, the real issues were never "lack of material".
20th Sep '17 12:00:44 AM JulianLapostat
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** Cersei Lannister is starting to get this treatment. Her orchestrating the deaths of her enemies [[spoiler: the High Sparrow and his followers, the Tyrells, Kevan Lannister, Pycelle and countless denizens of King's Landing, in the Season 6 finale]] is MoralEventHorizon to some fans and an impressive coup d'etat to others. Cersei's badassery only increases in Season 7 when her precarious situation looked like DavidvsGoliath yet she managed to outwit ''[[TheStrategist Tyrion]]'', [[TakeThatScrappy put an end to the Dorne plotline]], seized the Reach from the Tyrells and trapped the seemingly invincible Unsullied, and ''almost'' solved the financial threat from the Iron Bank for good. Unlike the "heroes" in Season 7, Cersei is not protected by PlotArmor, and the only possible causes of her failure at this point are supernatural factors like dragons and Whitewalkers.

to:

** Cersei Lannister is starting to get this treatment. Her orchestrating the deaths of her enemies enemies: [[spoiler: the High Sparrow and his followers, the Tyrells, Kevan Lannister, Pycelle and countless denizens of King's Landing, in the Season 6 finale]] is MoralEventHorizon starting to some fans and an impressive coup d'etat to others. Cersei's badassery only increases in Season 7 when her precarious situation looked like DavidvsGoliath yet she managed to outwit ''[[TheStrategist Tyrion]]'', [[TakeThatScrappy put an end to the Dorne plotline]], seized the Reach get this treatment from the Tyrells and trapped the seemingly invincible Unsullied, and ''almost'' solved the financial threat from the Iron Bank for good. Unlike the "heroes" in Season 7, Cersei is not protected by PlotArmor, and the only possible causes of her failure at this point are supernatural factors like dragons and Whitewalkers. certain fans.
19th Sep '17 11:44:12 PM Anduryen
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** Cersei Lannister orchestrating the deaths of her enemies: [[spoiler: the High Sparrow and his followers, the Tyrells, Kevan Lannister, Pycelle and countless denizens of King's Landing, in the Season 6 finale]] is starting to get this treatment from certain fans.

to:

** Cersei Lannister is starting to get this treatment. Her orchestrating the deaths of her enemies: enemies [[spoiler: the High Sparrow and his followers, the Tyrells, Kevan Lannister, Pycelle and countless denizens of King's Landing, in the Season 6 finale]] is starting MoralEventHorizon to get some fans and an impressive coup d'etat to others. Cersei's badassery only increases in Season 7 when her precarious situation looked like DavidvsGoliath yet she managed to outwit ''[[TheStrategist Tyrion]]'', [[TakeThatScrappy put an end to the Dorne plotline]], seized the Reach from the Tyrells and trapped the seemingly invincible Unsullied, and ''almost'' solved the financial threat from the Iron Bank for good. Unlike the "heroes" in Season 7, Cersei is not protected by PlotArmor, and the only possible causes of her failure at this treatment from certain fans.point are supernatural factors like dragons and Whitewalkers.
19th Sep '17 11:20:57 PM Anduryen
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** Season 7, while still praised for SugarWiki/VisualEffectsOfAwesome, is criticized for rapid pacing[[note]]often come along with jokes about OffScreenTeleportation and EasyLogistics. Compare how The Hound and Arya took one season and a half just wandering in the Riverland in Season 3-4 with how Davos Seaworth travelled from Dragonstone to King's Landing, returned to Dragonstone and showed up that the Wall in just one episode, or how Gendry carried the news from an unknown lake back to the Wall, sent it by raven to Dragonstone, Dany received it and flew north to search for the expedition squad in the middle of nowhere within two or three days in-Universe[[/note]], plot holes, character making illogical decision[[note]]Sansa allowing Littlefinger hanging around and scheming while it was obvious that nobody supports him anymore, Jon Snow insisting on doing everything by himself out of HonorBeforeReason[[/note]].

to:

** Season 7, while still praised for SugarWiki/VisualEffectsOfAwesome, is criticized for rapid pacing[[note]]often come along with jokes about OffScreenTeleportation and EasyLogistics. Compare how The Hound and Arya took one season and a half just wandering in the Riverland in Season 3-4 with how Davos Seaworth travelled from Dragonstone to King's Landing, returned to Dragonstone and showed up that the Wall in just one episode, or how Gendry carried the news from an unknown lake back to the Wall, sent it by raven to Dragonstone, Dany received it and flew north to search for the expedition wight-hunting squad in the middle of nowhere within two or three days in-Universe[[/note]], plot holes, character making illogical decision[[note]]Sansa decisions[[note]]Sansa allowing Littlefinger hanging around and scheming while it was obvious that nobody supports him anymore, Jon Snow insisting on doing everything by himself out of HonorBeforeReason[[/note]].HonorBeforeReason[[/note]], and the loss of lives having little emotional impact[[note]]Littlefinger's death is drown by the audience's WhyDontYouJustShootHim for Sansa, and Viserion was "one of the other two dragons what aren't Drogon"[[/note]]. Overall, the season appears to be the reverse of the overarching theme from Season 1: No matter how much you believe in your ideals, if no one supports you, you die.
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