History YMMV / GameOfThrones

20th Feb '18 1:49:41 PM TriumphantMagician
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** Many fans view Cersei as a positive female role model, despite the wide variety of other female rolemodels available in the show. While Cersei is indeed more sympathetic in the show than in the books, that still doesn't change the fact Cersei is a paranoid, power-hungry alcoholic with delusions of grandeur who had an incestuous relationship with Jaime, her own twin brother, for several years. For all her talk about valuing family above all else, Cersei still abuses her younger brother Tyrion out of spite, she makes little attempt to curb Joffrey's psychotic behavior despite the shame she feels about it, and Cersei is not anywhere near as smart as she thinks she is. She fancies herself a schemer like her father Tywin despite being nowhere near his level. Perhaps a more positive example of cunning female schemers feminist fans should look to could be Margaery and Olenna Tyrell.

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** Many fans view Cersei as a positive female role model, despite the wide variety of other female rolemodels available in the show. While Cersei is indeed more sympathetic in the show than in the books, that still doesn't change the fact Cersei is a paranoid, power-hungry alcoholic with delusions of grandeur who had an incestuous relationship with Jaime, her own twin brother, for several years. For all her talk about valuing family above all else, Cersei still abuses her younger brother Tyrion out of spite, she makes little attempt to curb Joffrey's psychotic behavior despite the shame she feels about it, and Cersei is not anywhere near as smart as she thinks she is. She fancies herself a schemer like her father Tywin despite being nowhere near his level. Perhaps a more positive example of cunning female schemers feminist fans should look to could be Margaery and Olenna Tyrell.



* EscapistCharacter: Generally the series averts this. As fans joke, people may want to live in [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Middle Earth]] but no one would want to, ''even visit'', [[TheDungAges Westeros]] and even the few characters who are heroes (Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Davos, Ned) have very difficult lives full of emotional and psychological pain and violence. Having said that if people have to go they'd rather do so in the shoes of these characters (who surprisingly are all women):

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* EscapistCharacter: Generally the series averts this. As fans joke, people may want to live in [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Middle Earth]] but no one would want to, to ''even visit'', visit'' [[TheDungAges Westeros]] Westeros]], and even the few characters who are heroes (Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Davos, Ned) have very difficult lives full of emotional and psychological pain and violence. Having said that if people have to go they'd rather do so in the shoes of these characters (who surprisingly are all women):characters:
15th Feb '18 4:44:49 PM G-Editor
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** Another ''WesternAnimation/SouthPark'' comparison could be held between Tyrion Lannister and [[NiceJewishBoy Kyle Broflovski. Both serve as TheSmartGuy who tries to do the right thing, but aren't treated with much respect due to living in a [[CrapsackWorld world full of cruel and stupid people]] and learn the BeingGoodSucks. They both are also part of minority group (Tyrion being a Dwarf/Kyle being a Jew) and as such are the object of ridicule and hatred to an AxCrazy PoliticallyIncorrectVillain (Joffery/Cartman) who in turn reciprocate their hatred because of the cruelty they inflict on other especially towards their spouses (Sansa/Heidi) whom they both show a special concern towards. Likewise they both have a brief relationship with them, though the difference here is that Tyrion was forced by his family to marry Sansa, while Kyle wanted to pursue a relationship with Heidi. They both are a TokenGoodTeammate in a family mostly compiled of villains whom their fathers (Tywin/Gerald) show a special distain towards, despite proving that they are NotSoDifferent on several occasions.

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** Another ''WesternAnimation/SouthPark'' comparison could be held between Tyrion Lannister and [[NiceJewishBoy Kyle Broflovski. ]] Both serve as TheSmartGuy who tries to do the right thing, but aren't treated with much respect due to living in a [[CrapsackWorld world full of cruel and stupid people]] and learn the BeingGoodSucks. They both are also part of minority group (Tyrion being a Dwarf/Kyle being a Jew) and as such are the object of ridicule and hatred to an AxCrazy PoliticallyIncorrectVillain (Joffery/Cartman) who in turn reciprocate their hatred because of the cruelty they inflict on other especially towards their spouses (Sansa/Heidi) whom they both show a special concern towards. Likewise they both have a brief relationship with them, though the difference here is that Tyrion was forced by his family to marry Sansa, while Kyle wanted to pursue a relationship with Heidi. They both are a TokenGoodTeammate in a family mostly compiled of villains whom their fathers (Tywin/Gerald) show a special distain towards, despite proving that they are NotSoDifferent on several occasions.
15th Feb '18 4:44:17 PM G-Editor
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** Another ''WesternAnimation/SouthPark'' comparison could be held between Tyrion Lannister and Kyle Broflovski. Both serve as TheSmartGuy who does everything in their power to help, but aren't treated with much respect due to living in a [[CrapsackWorld world full of cruel and stupid people]] and learn the BeingGoodSucks. They both are also part of minority group (Tyrion being a Dwarf/Kyle being a Jew) and as such are the object of ridicule and hatred to an AxCrazy PoliticallyIncorrectVillain (Joffery/Cartman) who in turn reciprocate their hatred because of the cruelty they inflict on other especially towards their spouses (Sansa/Heidi) whom they both show a special concern towards. Likewise they both have a brief relationship with them, though the difference here is that Tyrion was forced by his family to marry Sansa, while Kyle wanted to pursue a relationship with Heidi. They both are a TokenGoodTeammate in a family mostly compiled of villain whom their fathers (Tywin/Gerald) show a special distain towards, despite proving that they are NotSoDifferent on several occasions.

to:

** Another ''WesternAnimation/SouthPark'' comparison could be held between Tyrion Lannister and [[NiceJewishBoy Kyle Broflovski. Both serve as TheSmartGuy who does everything in their power tries to help, do the right thing, but aren't treated with much respect due to living in a [[CrapsackWorld world full of cruel and stupid people]] and learn the BeingGoodSucks. They both are also part of minority group (Tyrion being a Dwarf/Kyle being a Jew) and as such are the object of ridicule and hatred to an AxCrazy PoliticallyIncorrectVillain (Joffery/Cartman) who in turn reciprocate their hatred because of the cruelty they inflict on other especially towards their spouses (Sansa/Heidi) whom they both show a special concern towards. Likewise they both have a brief relationship with them, though the difference here is that Tyrion was forced by his family to marry Sansa, while Kyle wanted to pursue a relationship with Heidi. They both are a TokenGoodTeammate in a family mostly compiled of villain villains whom their fathers (Tywin/Gerald) show a special distain towards, despite proving that they are NotSoDifferent on several occasions.
15th Feb '18 4:42:50 PM G-Editor
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** Another ''WesternAnimation/SouthPark'' comparison could be held between Tyrion Lannister and Kyle Broflovski. Both serve as TheSmartGuy who does everything in their power to help, but aren't treated with much respect due to living in a [[CrapsackWorld world full of cruel and stupid people]] and learn the BeingGoodSucks. They both are also part of minority group (Tyrion being a Dwarf/Kyle being a Jew) and as such are the object of ridicule and hatred to an AxCrazy PoliticallyIncorrectVillain (Joffery/Cartman) who in turn reciprocate their hatred because of the cruelty they inflict on other especially towards their spouses (Sansa/Heidi) whom they both show a special concern towards. Likewise they both have a brief relationship with them, though the difference here is that Tyrion was forced by his family to marry Sansa, while Kyle wanted to pursue a relationship with Heidi. They both are a TokenGoodTeamate in a family mostly compiled of villain whom their fathers (Tywin/Gerald) show a special distain towards, despite proving that they are NotSoDifferent on several occasions.

to:

** Another ''WesternAnimation/SouthPark'' comparison could be held between Tyrion Lannister and Kyle Broflovski. Both serve as TheSmartGuy who does everything in their power to help, but aren't treated with much respect due to living in a [[CrapsackWorld world full of cruel and stupid people]] and learn the BeingGoodSucks. They both are also part of minority group (Tyrion being a Dwarf/Kyle being a Jew) and as such are the object of ridicule and hatred to an AxCrazy PoliticallyIncorrectVillain (Joffery/Cartman) who in turn reciprocate their hatred because of the cruelty they inflict on other especially towards their spouses (Sansa/Heidi) whom they both show a special concern towards. Likewise they both have a brief relationship with them, though the difference here is that Tyrion was forced by his family to marry Sansa, while Kyle wanted to pursue a relationship with Heidi. They both are a TokenGoodTeamate TokenGoodTeammate in a family mostly compiled of villain whom their fathers (Tywin/Gerald) show a special distain towards, despite proving that they are NotSoDifferent on several occasions.
15th Feb '18 4:41:40 PM G-Editor
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Added DiffLines:

** Likewise Cersei's son [[TheCaligula Joffery]] has a lot of similarities with [[WesternAnimation/SouthPark Eric Cartman.]] Both initially started out as immature [[{{Jerkass}} Jerkasses]] whom their mothers have [[SpoiledBrat spoiled rotten,]] before committing [[MoralEventHorizon a monstrous action]] (having Ned Stark executed/feeding Scott Tenorman his own parents) cementing their status as AxCrazy [[TheSociopath sociopaths]] who [[{{Sadist}} enjoys causing people to suffer]] and do whatever they want. They also have a spouse (Sansa/Heidi) whom they were deceivingly sweet to before regressing to their true nature and [[DomesticAbuser abuses them, both physically and emotionally.]] Despite the casual cruelty they inflicted on others when face with actual confrontation, they reveal themselves to be [[DirtyCoward pathetic cowards]] who will do anything to get out of said confrontation and actually gets their asses handed to by a girl (Arya/Wendy).
** Another ''WesternAnimation/SouthPark'' comparison could be held between Tyrion Lannister and Kyle Broflovski. Both serve as TheSmartGuy who does everything in their power to help, but aren't treated with much respect due to living in a [[CrapsackWorld world full of cruel and stupid people]] and learn the BeingGoodSucks. They both are also part of minority group (Tyrion being a Dwarf/Kyle being a Jew) and as such are the object of ridicule and hatred to an AxCrazy PoliticallyIncorrectVillain (Joffery/Cartman) who in turn reciprocate their hatred because of the cruelty they inflict on other especially towards their spouses (Sansa/Heidi) whom they both show a special concern towards. Likewise they both have a brief relationship with them, though the difference here is that Tyrion was forced by his family to marry Sansa, while Kyle wanted to pursue a relationship with Heidi. They both are a TokenGoodTeamate in a family mostly compiled of villain whom their fathers (Tywin/Gerald) show a special distain towards, despite proving that they are NotSoDifferent on several occasions.
30th Jan '18 6:44:16 PM DaFlabbagasta
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* EscapistCharacter: Generally the series averts this. As fans joke, people may want to live in [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Middle Earth]] but no one would want to, ''even visit'', [[TheDungAges Westeros]] and even the few characters who are heroes (Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Davos) have very difficult lives full of emotional and psychological pain and violence. Having said that if people have to go they'd rather do so in the shoes of these characters (who surprisingly are all women):

to:

* EscapistCharacter: Generally the series averts this. As fans joke, people may want to live in [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Middle Earth]] but no one would want to, ''even visit'', [[TheDungAges Westeros]] and even the few characters who are heroes (Jon, Tyrion, Bran, Davos) Davos, Ned) have very difficult lives full of emotional and psychological pain and violence. Having said that if people have to go they'd rather do so in the shoes of these characters (who surprisingly are all women):
25th Jan '18 4:00:45 PM NOYB
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** Tyrion Lannister is also becoming this in Seasons 5-7, where characters like Varys praise him for being a brilliant political mind, and the AdaptationalHeroism he receives dials down some of the original and tragic aspects of his book counterpart, which has the side-effect of making him a more conventional character than originally envisioned. Where the Tyrion of Seasons 1-4 was driven by ambition, angst, resentment and a need to assert himself, Tyrion spends the later seasons being a sidekick and SatelliteCharacter to Dany's story and even trying to serve as a conscience and calming influence on Dany with very little sign of having his own goals and interests. Complicating this is that much of his plans and ideas fails, such as his olive branch to the slave-owning cabal in Essos, and his original invasion scheme [[spoiler:for Dany which falls apart in the first three episodes of Westeros, largely because of DiabolusExMachina to better serve Dany's more dynamic story]].

to:

** Tyrion Lannister is also becoming this in Seasons 5-7, where characters like Varys praise him for being a brilliant political mind, and the AdaptationalHeroism he receives dials down some of the original and tragic aspects of his book counterpart, which has the side-effect of making him a more conventional character than originally envisioned. Where the Tyrion of Seasons 1-4 was driven by ambition, angst, resentment and a need to assert himself, Tyrion spends the later seasons being a sidekick and SatelliteCharacter to Dany's story and even trying to serve as a conscience and calming influence on Dany with very little sign of having his own goals and interests. Complicating this is that much many of his plans and ideas fails, fail, such as his olive branch to the slave-owning cabal in Essos, and his original invasion scheme [[spoiler:for Dany which falls apart in the first three episodes of Westeros, largely because of DiabolusExMachina to better serve Dany's more dynamic story]].
21st Jan '18 2:53:21 AM jarethsmagicballs
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** The show's depiction of religion with, what some see as, its one-dimensional ReligionIsWrong message comes across as this to the point of likely being an AuthorTract. It has led many, including non-religious fans, to cry foul, especially as the books are where religion is dealt with fairly WartsAndAll, even if the author, GRRM, is an atheist/agnostic. For example several characters' religious faith in the books is altered into a state of nonbelief on the show, and the Faith Militant and High Sparrow are treated as {{Straw Character}}s, while the one attempt to avert it, Septon Ray, a CompositeCharacter of the popular OneSceneWonder characters (Septon Meribald [=/=]Elder Brother) from ''Literature/AFeastForCrows'' is of questionable piety and lacks the compelling characterization and speeches of his book counterpart [[spoiler: and is even killed off]], with the trajectory of the show reversing that of the books[[labelnote:From The Books]] In the novels, the Elder Brother builds a safe haven that provides comfort and genuine insight to Brienne and, it's implied, the Hound. With Brienne becoming a SecularHero, and the Hound regressing from the path of peace towards becoming a violent anti-hero, the entire message and the efficacy and importance of faith to characters gets sidelined[[/labelnote]].

to:

** The show's depiction of religion with, what some see as, its a one-dimensional ReligionIsWrong message comes across as this to the point of likely being an AuthorTract. It has led many, including non-religious fans, to cry foul, especially as the books are where religion is dealt with fairly WartsAndAll, even if the author, GRRM, is an atheist/agnostic. For example several characters' religious faith in the books is altered into a state of nonbelief on the show, and the Faith Militant and High Sparrow are treated as {{Straw Character}}s, while the one attempt to avert it, Septon Ray, a CompositeCharacter of the popular OneSceneWonder characters (Septon Meribald [=/=]Elder Brother) from ''Literature/AFeastForCrows'' is of questionable piety and lacks the compelling characterization and speeches of his book counterpart [[spoiler: and is even killed off]], with the trajectory of the show reversing that of the books[[labelnote:From The Books]] In the novels, the Elder Brother builds a safe haven that provides comfort and genuine insight to Brienne and, it's implied, the Hound. With Brienne becoming a SecularHero, and the Hound regressing from the path of peace towards becoming a violent anti-hero, the entire message and the efficacy and importance of faith to characters gets sidelined[[/labelnote]].



** On a general note, many note that the great majority of openly atheist characters on the show compromises the verisimilitude of the show's feudal setting, noting that it made little sense for religion to have a dominant part in this society, if characters can openly mock religion repeatedly with little consequence and social punishment. They also note that the show runners have made characters who are religious in the books such as Davos[[note]]Who has a religious experience after surviving Blackwater[[/note]] and the genuinely pious Sansa into non-believers which likewise opens the show, and the showrunners since they control what goes on the show, to accusations of anti-religious sentiment.

to:

** On a general note, many note that the great majority of openly atheist characters on the show compromises the verisimilitude of the show's feudal setting, noting that it made little sense for religion to have a dominant part in this society, if characters can openly mock religion repeatedly with little consequence and social punishment. They also note that the show runners have made characters who are religious in the books such as Davos[[note]]Who has a religious experience after surviving Blackwater[[/note]] and the genuinely pious Sansa into non-believers which likewise opens the show, and the showrunners since they control what goes on the show, to accusations of anti-religious sentiment.non-believers.



** The show has also received [[http://moviepilot.com/posts/2946733 accusations and complaints of discrimination against religion, in particular regarding Seasons 5-6]]. This is due to the AdaptationalVillainy the Faith of the Seven and the High Sparrow get saddled with (including the AdaptationalVillainy of the High Sparrow's predecessor being a whoremonger, which he wasn't in the books [[spoiler: [[SparedByTheAdaptation where he was also murdered]] by [[AdaptedOut Osney Kettleback]] on [[AdaptationalHeroism Cersei's]] orders]]) followed by having them gruesomely killed off and treating them as [[AssholeVictim Asshole Victims]], particularly [[DyingMomentOfAwesome Lancel]] and [[FateWorseThanDeath Unella]]. There's also the fact that Brienne is made into a secular hero from being pious in the books, that Davos who was a religious man of the Faith is made into an atheist, the one good religious leader (Septon Ray) in the show is killed off (with a potential second being a OneSceneWonder) and that Sansa loses her faith when she is still a believer in the books. Some have noted the heavy-handed change appears to have been done [[WriterOnBoard by the writers and show runners so as to ]] [[TakeThat ridicule religion, especially Christianity]]. [[note]]Furthermore, it has been noted that it seems to single out Christianity, as the fictional counterpart for Christianity (the Faith of the Seven) hasn't got onscreen miracles or supernatural feats (though that is also the case in the books). This is in contrast to the other religions with are either depicted as intriguing and with actual supernatural signs such as the faith of R'hllor having two priests capable of raising the dead and the Old Gods centered religion of the north (with the reveal that [[spoiler: some of the [[TheFairFolk Children of the Forest]] are still alive]] though they are later killed off).[[/note]]

to:

** The show has also received [[http://moviepilot.com/posts/2946733 some accusations and complaints of discrimination against religion, in particular regarding Seasons 5-6]]. This is due to the AdaptationalVillainy the Faith of the Seven and the High Sparrow get saddled with (including the AdaptationalVillainy of the High Sparrow's predecessor being a whoremonger, which he wasn't in the books [[spoiler: [[SparedByTheAdaptation where he was also murdered]] by [[AdaptedOut Osney Kettleback]] on [[AdaptationalHeroism Cersei's]] orders]]) followed by having them gruesomely killed off and treating them as [[AssholeVictim Asshole Victims]], particularly [[DyingMomentOfAwesome Lancel]] and [[FateWorseThanDeath Unella]]. There's also the fact that Brienne is made into a secular hero from being pious in the books, that Davos who was a religious man of the Faith is made into an atheist, the one good religious leader (Septon Ray) in the show is killed off (with a potential second being a OneSceneWonder) and that Sansa loses her faith when she is still a believer in the books. Some have noted the heavy-handed change appears to have been done [[WriterOnBoard by the writers and show runners so as to ]] [[TakeThat ridicule religion, especially Christianity]]. [[note]]Furthermore, it has been noted that it seems to single out Christianity, as the fictional counterpart for Christianity (the Faith of the Seven) hasn't got onscreen miracles or supernatural feats (though that is also the case in the books). This is in contrast to the other religions with are either depicted as intriguing and with actual supernatural signs such as the faith of R'hllor having two priests capable of raising the dead and the Old Gods centered religion of the north (with the reveal that [[spoiler: some of the [[TheFairFolk Children of the Forest]] are still alive]] though they are later killed off).[[/note]]



* WriterOnBoard: The controversial adaptational choices of turning Davos and Brienne from religious to non-religious, having the pious Sansa lose her faith as a sign of character growth, and making Stannis both more villainous and less intelligent in addition to more fanatical (punctuated by his [[HumiliationConga string of failures]]), is seen by some fans as the writers trying to impose their own anti-religious sentiment. It's also noteworthy that D.B. Weiss has admitted he dislikes Stannis and David Benioff's prior work on ''Film/{{Troy}}'' shows some similar sentiments. See {{Anvilicious}} and UnfortunateImplications above for more.

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* WriterOnBoard: The What some view as controversial adaptational choices of turning Davos and Brienne from religious to non-religious, having the pious Sansa lose her faith as a sign of character growth, and making Stannis both more villainous and less intelligent in addition to more fanatical (punctuated by his [[HumiliationConga string of failures]]), is seen by some fans as the writers trying to impose their own anti-religious sentiment. It's also noteworthy that D.B. Weiss has admitted he dislikes Stannis and David Benioff's prior work on ''Film/{{Troy}}'' shows some similar sentiments. See {{Anvilicious}} and UnfortunateImplications above for more.
21st Jan '18 2:25:40 AM jarethsmagicballs
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* {{Anvilicious}}: Many criticized the show's shoehorning of:
** The show's biased negative depiction of religion with its one-dimensional ReligionIsWrong message comes across as this to the point of likely being an AuthorTract. It has led many, including non-religious fans, to cry foul, especially as the books are where religion is dealt with fairly WartsAndAll, even if the author, GRRM, is an atheist/agnostic. For example several characters' religious faith in the books is altered into a state of nonbelief on the show, and the Faith Militant and High Sparrow are treated as {{Straw Character}}s, while the one attempt to avert it, Septon Ray, a CompositeCharacter of the popular OneSceneWonder characters (Septon Meribald [=/=]Elder Brother) from ''Literature/AFeastForCrows'' is of questionable piety and lacks the compelling characterization and speeches of his book counterpart [[spoiler: and is even killed off]], with the trajectory of the show reversing that of the books[[labelnote:From The Books]] In the novels, the Elder Brother builds a safe haven that provides comfort and genuine insight to Brienne and, it's implied, the Hound. With Brienne becoming a SecularHero, and the Hound regressing from the path of peace towards becoming a violent anti-hero, the entire message and the efficacy and importance of faith to characters gets sidelined[[/labelnote]].

to:

* {{Anvilicious}}: Many criticized the show's shoehorning of:
have criticized:
** The show's biased negative depiction of religion with with, what some see as, its one-dimensional ReligionIsWrong message comes across as this to the point of likely being an AuthorTract. It has led many, including non-religious fans, to cry foul, especially as the books are where religion is dealt with fairly WartsAndAll, even if the author, GRRM, is an atheist/agnostic. For example several characters' religious faith in the books is altered into a state of nonbelief on the show, and the Faith Militant and High Sparrow are treated as {{Straw Character}}s, while the one attempt to avert it, Septon Ray, a CompositeCharacter of the popular OneSceneWonder characters (Septon Meribald [=/=]Elder Brother) from ''Literature/AFeastForCrows'' is of questionable piety and lacks the compelling characterization and speeches of his book counterpart [[spoiler: and is even killed off]], with the trajectory of the show reversing that of the books[[labelnote:From The Books]] In the novels, the Elder Brother builds a safe haven that provides comfort and genuine insight to Brienne and, it's implied, the Hound. With Brienne becoming a SecularHero, and the Hound regressing from the path of peace towards becoming a violent anti-hero, the entire message and the efficacy and importance of faith to characters gets sidelined[[/labelnote]].



** Some fans have disapproved of the show's very negative portrayal of religion, especially since the books treat the subject rather fairly. Over the course of five and a half seasons, we haven't seen a single religious person who has not tried to exploit his position for some sort of ill-gotten gain. But then come Season 6 Episode 7, we are introduced to Septon Ray, working with several peasants to construct a sept and treating everyone as though they were one of his own family, even Sandor Clegane, saving him from his near-death in "The Children" and playing a role in helping Sandor find his way, albeit posthumously. The reunion of Beric and Thoros in Season 7, in conjunction with the return of Melisandre in a non-negative portrayal, also contributes.

to:

** Some fans have disapproved of what they view as the show's very negative portrayal of religion, especially since the books treat the subject rather fairly. Over the course of five and a half seasons, we haven't seen a single religious person who has not tried to exploit his position for some sort of ill-gotten gain. But then come Season 6 Episode 7, we are introduced to Septon Ray, working with several peasants to construct a sept and treating everyone as though they were one of his own family, even Sandor Clegane, saving him from his near-death in "The Children" and playing a role in helping Sandor find his way, albeit posthumously. The reunion of Beric and Thoros in Season 7, in conjunction with the return of Melisandre in a non-negative portrayal, also contributes.
17th Jan '18 5:44:18 PM Evighet
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*** The latter scene has also been criticized for having the camera linger on Theon at the end, with the unfortunate implication being that his pain is worse, or at the very least ought to be the main focus of the scene. The episode's director has said that the reason behind this was to avoid having to subject Sophie Turner, still a teenager at the time of filming, to having to portray [[spoiler:being raped on camera]].
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