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molokai198 Since: Oct, 2012
#5051: Jul 18th 2023 at 3:53:20 PM

The description for Beware the Superman seems a bit odd in how it describes superhero settings that are neutral on the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism to be ones where good government supers are equally matched by bad rogue supers, and the more cynical settings to be ones where they are overwhelmed by them. This seems to ignore how there are lots of settings where the government isn't good.

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
Asterlix Waffle Cat (she/her) from Ooo Since: Feb, 2022 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Waffle Cat (she/her)
#5053: Jul 20th 2023 at 5:43:03 AM

How come?

Here there be cats.
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#5054: Jul 20th 2023 at 5:52:31 AM

Fake Defector was merged with Heel Face Mole because of duplication concerns by this TRS thread. No one talked about rewriting the description and I am not sure if it's needed if both Fake Defector and The Mole already covered what Heel Face Mole was supposed to be about.

Macron's notes
randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#5055: Jul 20th 2023 at 5:14:37 PM

"Aside from that, the name is unclear. It sounds like either a Heel–Face Turn through becoming The Mole in the bad guys, or perhaps faking a Heel–Face Turn by becoming The Mole in the good guys. But turns out it's actually neither, it's supposed to be Fake Defector-but-evil."

Yeah that sounds to me like the latter is a Distinction Without a Difference

For Fake Defector I changed "hero" with "character" and "bad guy" with "enemy" just to make it clear it is a neutral trope.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from Second Star to the left (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Disasturbator
#5056: Jul 21st 2023 at 12:12:30 PM

So Kickthe Dog has a very long description and at the bottom I saw

WARNING! Enacting this trope, particularly in the presence of a heroic character, may result in the following: Berserk Button, Roaring Rampage of Revenge, Curb-Stomp Battle, The Dog Bites Back, the aforementioned Laser-Guided Karma etc. Do not attempt this trope unless you're feeling suicidal.

Think we can do without suicidal bit,thoughts?

New theme music also a box
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#5057: Jul 21st 2023 at 12:15:13 PM

I mean, I feel like that entire section is kinda pointless and bash-y anyway. Most Kick the Dog moments I know don't immediately get followed by violent and karmic revenge.

Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 21st 2023 at 3:15:48 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Ultimatum Disasturbator from Second Star to the left (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Disasturbator
#5058: Jul 21st 2023 at 12:23:50 PM

I went in and tried my hand at what I felt it's description should be like

    open/close all folders 

    words 

When a character does something evil, cruel or very mean for no apparent gain, because the author wants to demonstrate that they are not a nice person and shift audience sympathy away from them.

Why this trope works could be expressed in the words of William Cowper: “I would not enter on my list of friends (though graced with polished manners and fine sense, yet wanting sensibility) the man who needlessly sets foot upon a worm.” In other words, a cruel act, no matter how trivial, establishes someone as a cruel person. Conversely, the creator may show a character being kind for no apparent gain, to demonstrate that the character is a nice person and someone the audience is meant to cheer for. Both devices are used to help the audience become emotionally invested in the story.

What separates this trope from a character's other evil or cruel acts is that this bit of evil is gratuitous. It doesn't get the character anything or even advance the plot. The sole reason for this story beat existing is to place one or more characters squarely on the wrong side of the Rule of Empathy.

Dog-kickings can be verbal as well, when a line of dialogue is used to shock the audience with its sheer repugnance. If it's uttered in the presence of the hero in an action series, they'll echo the audience's thoughts and tell the villain "You're Insane!"

A sign that Evil Is Petty. Compare with Can't Get Away with Nuthin', And Your Little Dog, Too!, Kick Them While They Are Down, The Dog Bites Back,Threw My Bike on the Roof, I Will Punish Your Friend for Your Failure. See "If You're So Evil, Eat This Kitten!" for when bad guys do a Kick The Dog test to make sure undercover heroes are really evil, and Dog-Kicking Excuse for when the would-be dog-kicker has to psych themselves up to doing it.

Contrast Pet the Dog (proving you're good) and Adopt the Dog (going from Neutral to Good).

For bad people who literally kick dogs, see Bad People Abuse Animals. For the Real Life phenomenon called "Kick the Cat" or "Kick the Dog", you'll be wanting The Chain of Harm. For examples that literally involve kicking or stomping, see Cruelty by Feet.

Edited by Ultimatum on Jul 21st 2023 at 8:28:34 PM

New theme music also a box
Hello83433 (Lucky 7) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#5059: Jul 23rd 2023 at 12:41:18 AM

The description for Platonic Life-Partners has this at the end:

Not to be confused with Childhood Friend Romance, in which one side does have feelings for the other.

But the thing is, this statement isn't entirely true as the trope also requires the characters to be childhood friends. So the trope wouldn't be applicable for all mistaken cases of Platonic Life-Partners where one person actually does have feelings for the other. I was wondering if there was a better trope here, such as Unrequited Love Lasts Forever, or if the sentence should have the additional qualifier added on (I know it might seem obvious with the trope title but...) or if it should just be removed.

CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floors
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#5060: Jul 23rd 2023 at 2:57:02 AM

I think the line should probably be something more akin to...

"Not to be confused with Childhood Friend Romance, which is a relationship dynamic that may look like this trope in childhood but which manifests romantic feelings in adulthood."

Something in that vein.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 23rd 2023 at 10:57:34 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#5061: Jul 25th 2023 at 7:20:53 PM

Encountered Drop the Washtub, and there's barely anything in the description.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#5062: Jul 25th 2023 at 7:34:02 PM

I don't think there's anything else to it. It's just a common item that randomly drops on characters in anime for Rule of Funny.

Macron's notes
Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#5063: Jul 25th 2023 at 7:45:38 PM

According to like a single source I could find on the topic.

"Tarai Ochi" (lit. Washtub Punchline) is a visual effect in Japanese comedy originating from the children comedy show 8 Ji Dayo, Zeiin Shuugou by musical band The Drifters. As a Running Gag, large objects would randomly drop on the scene, more commonly, containers of water onto one of the performers. The gag has made its way into anime and manga medium where washtubs, pots, and buckets would drop on a a character, seeminly appearing out of nowhere from above the camera.

Edited by Amonimus on Jul 25th 2023 at 5:47:15 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#5064: Jul 25th 2023 at 8:37:14 PM

Sounds like a good way to expand it. I'll add it but I will paraphrase.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
alnair20aug93 🍊orange fursona🧡 from Furrypines (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
🍊orange fursona🧡
#5065: Jul 28th 2023 at 5:53:06 AM

Looks good enough.


So, I was in the Ensembles Cleanup thread after this query, and I was wondering about Four-Temperament Ensemble, I found out these things that I would be highlighting in bold:

     Sanguine (blood) 
** Apocalypse Horseman: Conquest. ** Family member: Daughter.
** Prominent English-speaking Country: Australia. ** Prominent Far-Eastern Country: Philippines, South Korea. ** State: Texas. ** City in the Philippines: Quezon City
  • Basic Taste: Umami (or Spicy, despite not being one of the basic tastes)
  • Archetypal color: Gold, brighter shades of yellow, all shades of pink or aqua (the colors of the Sky).
** Male/Female: Beta.

     Choleric (yellow bile) 
** Apocalypse Horseman: War. ** Family member: Father.
  • Cardinal Point: East.
** Piloting Style: Steamroller.
** Prominent English-speaking Country: United States. ** Prominent Far-Eastern Country: China, North Korea, Hong Kong. ** State: New York. ** City in the Philippines: San Juan.
  • Basic Taste: Salty.
  • Archetypal color: Darker shades of yellow, all shades of red or orange (the colors of a Volcano).
** Male/Female: Alpha.

     Melancholic (black bile) 
  • Introverted, brooding, and task-oriented. Normally highly sensitive and empathetic, but can be blunt. They are introspective, sensitive and very detailed people. They are usually those people who prefer to remain silent in their corner, reserved, suspicious, but very loyal and dedicated to the people they love.
** Apocalypse Horseman: Death. ** Family Member: Son.
  • Cardinal Point: North.
** Piloting Style: Plugger.
** Prominent English-speaking Country: United Kingdom, Ireland. ** Prominent Far-Eastern Country: Taiwan, Mongolia. ** State: Illinois. ** City in the Philippines: Manila.
  • Basic Taste: Both Bitter And Sour.
  • Archetypal color: Navy blue, dark purple, olive or darker shades of green, all shades of brown or black (the colors of a cave or cavern).
** Male/Female: Sigma.

     Phlegmatic (phlegm) 
  • Introverted, quiet, and people-oriented. Kind, sensitive, and empathetic towards others. They are a diplomatic person, who does not want to get into conflicts, who runs away from confusion. Sometimes impulsive, they are also more malleable than others. Doesn't like fights, is obedient, loyal, patient and fun. Usually assume passive postures in situations. They are homely, tolerant and very fond of being kind to people. note 
** Apocalypse Horseman: Famine. ** Family member: Mother.
  • Cardinal Point: West.
** Piloting Style: Sniper.
** Prominent English-speaking Country: Canada, New Zealand. ** Prominent Far-Eastern Country: Japan. ** State: California. ** City in the Philippines: Pasig
  • Basic Taste: Sweet
  • Archetypal color: Teal, green, white, gray, all shades of blue or black (the colors of the ocean).
** Male/Female: Gamma
  • Sense of Humor: Dry

Nowhere in Google I could find these things that I have put in bold, and the cities in the Philippines are merely cities in Manila, and not the rest of the country. And any family member can have any of these temperaments. I have asked the people if these are necessary, and the told me they are. I beg to differ because of geopolitics, and I feel like it's shoehorning.

What to do with this?

Edited by alnair20aug93 on Jul 28th 2023 at 8:53:51 PM

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Noaqiyeum Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they) from the gentle and welcoming dark (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they)
#5066: Jul 28th 2023 at 1:12:34 PM

That is way, way too much for a trope description and the things you bolded are only the first that I'd cut.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable
Ultimatum Disasturbator from Second Star to the left (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Disasturbator
#5067: Jul 28th 2023 at 1:49:22 PM

The blood types can go on the analysis page,anyone else in favor?

New theme music also a box
Nen_desharu Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire from Greater Smash Bros. Universe or Toronto Since: Aug, 2020 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
#5068: Jul 28th 2023 at 4:32:29 PM

I believe that blood types belong in the Analysis page.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Jul 28th 2023 at 7:32:40 AM

Kirby is awesome.
Noaqiyeum Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they) from the gentle and welcoming dark (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
Trans Siberian Anarchestra (it/they)
#5069: Jul 28th 2023 at 10:11:14 PM

I think the personality blood types might be the only thing below the Four-Philosophy Ensemble bullets that I'd keep. Everything else seems shoehorned.

The Revolution Will Not Be Tropeable
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#5070: Jul 28th 2023 at 11:22:00 PM

So I've been thinking this for a while, but I really don't think anything outside of explaining what the different types are is necessary for the description. What blood types, philosophies, myers briggs types, astrological signs, seasons, elements, etc that can be grafted onto the Four Temperaments is just an application of the concept to those other concepts. It's not (as far as I'm aware) an inherent aspect of the concept. All of that would be better suited for the analysis page as an exploration of how this personality type system can interact with other personality type systems.

Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 28th 2023 at 2:22:23 PM

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#5071: Jul 29th 2023 at 7:41:05 AM

The blood types can go on the analysis page,anyone else in favor?

I don't think it's that simple. There is an official description of what personality types are linked to which humours. They come from the likes of Hippocrates and Galen and were later modernised by the likes of Adler, Pavlov, Riemann and eventually Eysenck. Whether located on the trope page or an analysis page, that's what should be discussed, both as part of the trope description and as further analysis on an analysis page as to how those real life definitions get used in works.

What's currently listed in each of folders is basically just people expanding them over time with what they personally interpret each to be, moving away from either the real life definitions or how they're really used in works. Those folders have almost transformed into a form of WMG, Fridge or speculation about each of the four humours that doesn't belong on either a trope or analysis page. I think it needs cleaning up to get back to what the official personality/blood type beliefs actually are and how they're used in works — what the objective trope and analysis of its use really are. Moving it to the analysis page in its current form is just sweeping misuse under the rug.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 29th 2023 at 3:55:23 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#5072: Jul 29th 2023 at 8:03:43 AM

[up]I think we're all mostly in agreement. Whatever parts of that are actually part of the foundational concept and can demonstrably proven to be as such can remain part of the main description. Everything else either gets cut or if it's something that has been suggested by other systems and theories, moved to the analysis page.

Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 29th 2023 at 11:04:44 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from Second Star to the left (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Disasturbator
#5073: Jul 29th 2023 at 8:07:16 AM

The Conflicted can definately go

New theme music also a box
alnair20aug93 🍊orange fursona🧡 from Furrypines (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
🍊orange fursona🧡
#5074: Jul 29th 2023 at 9:16:16 AM

I'm for either moving the other aspects to Analysis; the other shoehorns either move to Just for Fun or just cutlist them entirely.

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alnair20aug93 🍊orange fursona🧡 from Furrypines (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
🍊orange fursona🧡
#5075: Jul 30th 2023 at 7:18:16 AM

When are we going to start cutlisting this?

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