Fake Defector was merged with Heel Face Mole but never updated.
How come?
Here there be cats.Fake Defector was merged with Heel Face Mole because of duplication concerns by this TRS thread. No one talked about rewriting the description and I am not sure if it's needed if both Fake Defector and The Mole already covered what Heel Face Mole was supposed to be about.
Macron's notes"Aside from that, the name is unclear. It sounds like either a Heel–Face Turn through becoming The Mole in the bad guys, or perhaps faking a Heel–Face Turn by becoming The Mole in the good guys. But turns out it's actually neither, it's supposed to be Fake Defector-but-evil."
Yeah that sounds to me like the latter is a Distinction Without a Difference
For Fake Defector I changed "hero" with "character" and "bad guy" with "enemy" just to make it clear it is a neutral trope.
So Kickthe Dog has a very long description and at the bottom I saw
WARNING! Enacting this trope, particularly in the presence of a heroic character, may result in the following: Berserk Button, Roaring Rampage of Revenge, Curb-Stomp Battle, The Dog Bites Back, the aforementioned Laser-Guided Karma etc. Do not attempt this trope unless you're feeling suicidal.
Think we can do without suicidal bit,thoughts?
New theme music also a boxI mean, I feel like that entire section is kinda pointless and bash-y anyway. Most Kick the Dog moments I know don't immediately get followed by violent and karmic revenge.
Edited by WarJay77 on Jul 21st 2023 at 3:15:48 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure PurenessI went in and tried my hand at what I felt it's description should be like
When a character does something evil, cruel or very mean for no apparent gain, because the author wants to demonstrate that they are not a nice person and shift audience sympathy away from them.
Why this trope works could be expressed in the words of William Cowper: “I would not enter on my list of friends (though graced with polished manners and fine sense, yet wanting sensibility) the man who needlessly sets foot upon a worm.” In other words, a cruel act, no matter how trivial, establishes someone as a cruel person. Conversely, the creator may show a character being kind for no apparent gain, to demonstrate that the character is a nice person and someone the audience is meant to cheer for. Both devices are used to help the audience become emotionally invested in the story.
What separates this trope from a character's other evil or cruel acts is that this bit of evil is gratuitous. It doesn't get the character anything or even advance the plot. The sole reason for this story beat existing is to place one or more characters squarely on the wrong side of the Rule of Empathy.
Dog-kickings can be verbal as well, when a line of dialogue is used to shock the audience with its sheer repugnance. If it's uttered in the presence of the hero in an action series, they'll echo the audience's thoughts and tell the villain "You're Insane!"
A sign that Evil Is Petty. Compare with Can't Get Away with Nuthin', And Your Little Dog, Too!, Kick Them While They Are Down, The Dog Bites Back,Threw My Bike on the Roof, I Will Punish Your Friend for Your Failure. See "If You're So Evil, Eat This Kitten!" for when bad guys do a Kick The Dog test to make sure undercover heroes are really evil, and Dog-Kicking Excuse for when the would-be dog-kicker has to psych themselves up to doing it.
Contrast Pet the Dog (proving you're good) and Adopt the Dog (going from Neutral to Good).
For bad people who literally kick dogs, see Bad People Abuse Animals. For the Real Life phenomenon called "Kick the Cat" or "Kick the Dog", you'll be wanting The Chain of Harm. For examples that literally involve kicking or stomping, see Cruelty by Feet.
Edited by Ultimatum on Jul 21st 2023 at 8:28:34 PM
New theme music also a boxThe description for Platonic Life-Partners has this at the end:
But the thing is, this statement isn't entirely true as the trope also requires the characters to be childhood friends. So the trope wouldn't be applicable for all mistaken cases of Platonic Life-Partners where one person actually does have feelings for the other. I was wondering if there was a better trope here, such as Unrequited Love Lasts Forever, or if the sentence should have the additional qualifier added on (I know it might seem obvious with the trope title but...) or if it should just be removed.
CSP Cleanup Thread | All that I ask for ... is diamonds and dance floorsI think the line should probably be something more akin to...
"Not to be confused with Childhood Friend Romance, which is a relationship dynamic that may look like this trope in childhood but which manifests romantic feelings in adulthood."
Something in that vein.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 23rd 2023 at 10:57:34 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.Encountered Drop the Washtub, and there's barely anything in the description.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope ReportI don't think there's anything else to it. It's just a common item that randomly drops on characters in anime for Rule of Funny.
Macron's notesAccording to like a single source I could find on the topic.
"Tarai Ochi" (lit. Washtub Punchline) is a visual effect in Japanese comedy originating from the children comedy show 8 Ji Dayo, Zeiin Shuugou by musical band The Drifters. As a Running Gag, large objects would randomly drop on the scene, more commonly, containers of water onto one of the performers. The gag has made its way into anime and manga medium where washtubs, pots, and buckets would drop on a a character, seeminly appearing out of nowhere from above the camera.
Edited by Amonimus on Jul 25th 2023 at 5:47:15 PM
TroperWall / WikiMagic CleanupSounds like a good way to expand it. I'll add it but I will paraphrase.
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope ReportLooks good enough.
So, I was in the Ensembles Cleanup thread after this query, and I was wondering about Four-Temperament Ensemble, I found out these things that I would be highlighting in bold:
- Extroverted, cheerful, and people-oriented. In general, they are more empathetic, encouraging, confident, communicative, humorous, compassionate, sentimental and affectionate. Sometimes, they are explosive, impulsive and even unpredictable.
- Key Strengths: Charming, cheerful, loves people, energetic, talkative, passionate and compassionate, positive, expressive influencer, an excellent comedian, salesman or clown, quirky or eccentric, highly moralistic (mostly) and an outright fun person.
- In common with phlegmatic: Friendly, forgiving, optimistic endurer, emotionally available, will never get negative, good with relationships.
- In common with choleric: Adventurous, confident, hard to embarrass.
- Key Weaknesses: Undisciplined, too talkative, Euphoric-abatament, too energetic, scatterbrained, gullible, unpredictable, and disorganized.
- In common with phlegmatic: Weak-willed, likes to appease other people, gullible, too idealistic to the point of being unable to grasp what's gone wrong.
- In common with choleric: Impulsive, reckless, hot-tempered, thoughtless, and sometimes self-centered at times.
- Expressive high, responsive high; response's delay short, duration short.
- The Inspired Influencer of DISC and Myers–Briggs types generally: Artisans
- Will often correspond with the Optimist or the Apathetic when in a Four-Philosophy Ensemble.
- Amongst the five main "Dere Types" qualify as the extroverted and the cutie Deredere (Lovestruck) in best cases; The Pollyanna and Plucky Girl can also qualify.
- Oni type and Good Cop/Bad Cop: Brash Red Oni with snark, but an overall diplomatic "Good Cop".
- Corresponding element, season, and division of a day: (hot and moist) air, spring, and morning.
- In a person's life, it corresponds to young childhood (roughly ages 0-13).
- Organ: Liver/Lungs.
- The Yin-Yang Duo: Yang (white).
- The Four Gods: Azure Dragon.
- Planet or Satellite: Jupiter.
- Western Zodiac Signs: Gemini, Libra, Aquarius.
- Leadership type: Charismatic.
- Personality Blood Type: B
- Key Strengths: Charming, cheerful, loves people, energetic, talkative, passionate and compassionate, positive, expressive influencer, an excellent comedian, salesman or clown, quirky or eccentric, highly moralistic (mostly) and an outright fun person.
- Cardinal Point: South.
- Piloting Style: Bushwacker.
- Typical Enneagram types: 2, 7.
- Emotion: Happiness/Joy.
- Stereotypical Hair Color: Blonde.
- Basic Taste: Umami (or Spicy, despite not being one of the basic tastes)
- Archetypal color: Gold, brighter shades of yellow, all shades of pink or aqua (the colors of the Sky).
- Sense of Humor: Klutzy.
- Extroverted, short-tempered, and task-oriented. Normally callous and unemotional, but will get angry for personal reasons. They tend to be magnanimous, enthusiastic, forward-thinking, tolerant, and strong-willed. Whoever has a choleric temperament will be a born leader, initiator, logical, of action, frank and who always takes the plans forward.
- Key Strengths: Takes the lead, hard worker, strong-willed, practical, passionate, a good repossession worker, security or military personnel, an excellent strongman/woman of the team (drill sergeant at the most extreme), determined, goal-oriented and sometimes thrives on criticism.
- In common with sanguine: Confident, loves a challenge, hard to embarrass.
- In common with melancholic: Good planner, independent, honest without any compromisation, Excellent agent of change, sheer hard worker.
- Key Weaknesses: Hot-tempered, rude, rebellious, can be cruel, stubborn, bossy, expects complete devotion, insensitive, often condescending, can become psychotic in overbearing situations, workaholic, without compassion or conscience, can be a warmonger, vengeful, a selfish cynic of a person's character, most likely a bad winner/loser, and may misinterpret jokes.
- In common with sanguine: Arrogant, boisterous, often dramatic, unhinged, unfiltered in speech, often likes to make "in your face" insults.
- In common with melancholic: Inflexible, emotionally distant, strict, demanding and fastidious, not very cooperative, vengeful, self-righteous and dogmatic, heavily sarcastic, tends sees the worst in people.
- Expressive high, responsive low; response's delay short, duration long.
- The Dominant Driver of DISC and Myers–Briggs types generally:Idealists
- Will often correspond with the Apathetic or the Cynic when in a Four-Philosophy Ensemble.
- Amongst the five main "Dere Types" qualify as Tsundere (Rude and Lovestruck), especially "Type A" and "Type B". Hot-Blooded can also qualify. May qualify as Yandere in more unstable cases.
- Oni type and Good Cop/Bad Cop: Red Oni and cruel, sheer "Bad Cop".
- Corresponding element, season, and division of a day: (hot and dry) fire, summer, and afternoon.
- In a person's life, it corresponds with adolescence and young adulthood (roughly ages 13-35).
- Organ: Gall bladder/Stomach.
- The Yin-Yang Duo: Yang (Red).
- The Four Gods: Vermilion Bird.
- Planet or Satellite: Mars and the Sun.
- Western Zodiac Signs: Aries, Leo, Sagittarius.
- Leadership type: Headstrong.
- Personality Blood Type: O.
- Key Strengths: Takes the lead, hard worker, strong-willed, practical, passionate, a good repossession worker, security or military personnel, an excellent strongman/woman of the team (drill sergeant at the most extreme), determined, goal-oriented and sometimes thrives on criticism.
- Cardinal Point: East.
- Typical Enneagram types: 3, 8.
- Emotion: Anger/Rage
- Stereotypical Hair Color: Red/Ginger.
- Basic Taste: Salty.
- Archetypal color: Darker shades of yellow, all shades of red or orange (the colors of a Volcano).
- Sense of Humor: Brash.
- Introverted, brooding, and task-oriented. Normally highly sensitive and empathetic, but can be blunt. They are introspective, sensitive and very detailed people. They are usually those people who prefer to remain silent in their corner, reserved, suspicious, but very loyal and dedicated to the people they love.
- Key Strengths: Detailed, conservative, analytical, organized, perfectionistic, faithful to a fault, highly moralistic (mostly), discreet will of stone, elegant (in the more dignified ways), often selfless and an excellent medic, lawyer or scientist.
- In common with choleric: Excellent leader, practical, an effective organizer and punctual.
- In common with phlegmatic: Polite, ethical to a fault, deep, thoughtful, sensitive and gentle.
- Key Weaknesses: Rigid, too straight-laced, critical, pessimistic, moody, depressed, impractical (yes, both practical and impractical), has unrealistically high expectations, very paranoid.
- In common with choleric: Inflexible, can be snobbish, workaholic,emotionally distant, strict, resentful, vengeful, self-righteous and dogmatic, often sees the worst in people (and especially themselves).
- In common with phlegmatic: Shy, insecure, easily embarrassed, slowpoke.
- Expressive low, responsive low; response's delay long, duration long.
- The Contemplating Conscience of DISC and Myers–Briggs types generally: Guardians
- Will often correspond with the Cynic or the Realist when in a Four-Philosophy Ensemble.
- Amongst the five main "Dere Types" qualify as Kuudere (Mood-Swinger ) or a tendentially sad and depressed Dandere (shy and lovestruck). Sugar-and-Ice Personality can also qualify.
- Oni type and Good Cop/Bad Cop: Stoic, aloof Blue Oni, a cold "Bad Cop" with less affiliation (if not uninvolved).
- Corresponding element, season, and division of a day: (cool and dry) earth, autumn, and evening.
- In a person's life, it corresponds to middle-aged adulthood (roughly ages 35-65).
- Organ: Spleen
- The Yin-Yang Duo: Yin (black).
- The Four Gods: White Tiger.
- Planet or Satellite: Saturn and The Mercury.
- Western Zodiac Signs: Taurus, Virgo, Capricorn.
- Leadership type: Mastermind.
- Personality Blood Type: A.
- Key Strengths: Detailed, conservative, analytical, organized, perfectionistic, faithful to a fault, highly moralistic (mostly), discreet will of stone, elegant (in the more dignified ways), often selfless and an excellent medic, lawyer or scientist.
- Cardinal Point: North.
- Typical Enneagram types: 1, 4, 6.
- Emotion: Sadness/Sorrow.
- Stereotypical Hair Color: Black.
- Basic Taste: Both Bitter And Sour.
- Archetypal color: Navy blue, dark purple, olive or darker shades of green, all shades of brown or black (the colors of a cave or cavern).
- Sense of Humor: Tragic.
- Introverted, quiet, and people-oriented. Kind, sensitive, and empathetic towards others. They are a diplomatic person, who does not want to get into conflicts, who runs away from confusion. Sometimes impulsive, they are also more malleable than others. Doesn't like fights, is obedient, loyal, patient and fun. Usually assume passive postures in situations. They are homely, tolerant and very fond of being kind to people. note
- Key Strengths: Calm, humble, an excellent assistant, spy or librarian, discreet, flexible will of steel (flexible steel), elegant (in the simpler ways), thoughtful, patient, modest, a real sweetheart, accommodating, steady-paced, sympathetic, perceptive, normally has faith in morality (or indifferent to it), very compassionate, assuming innocent until proven guilty (or alternatively rational), a good listener, open-minded, considerate, and empathetic to all.
- In common with melancholic: Polite, reserved, gentle, ethical to a fault, dependable, can be popular among audiences, quiet and stealthy, a deep poker face, insightful.
- In common with sanguine: Pleasant, forgiving, witty, easygoing, idealistic endurer, emotionally available, a good sense of humour, good with relationships, accepting, playful.
- Key Weaknesses: Indifferent, submissive, lazy, slow, shy and passive, slacker, indecisive and too yielding, often neglected by others.
- In common with melancholic: Timid and docile, scared of sudden change, stubborn (about certain things), easily embarrassed.
- In common with sanguine: teasing, too compromising, forgetful, often unable to find what's wrong.
- Expressive low, responsive high; response's delay long, duration short.
- The Stable Supporter of DISC and Myers–Briggs types generally: Rationals
- Will often correspond with the Realist or the Optimist when in a Four-Philosophy Ensemble.
- Amongst the five main "Dere Types" qualify as Defrosting Ice Queen (Cool and Lovestruck) or a cutie and shy Dandere. May qualify as Yandere in more unstable cases.
- Oni type and Good Cop/Bad Cop: Blue Oni and gentle, diplomatic "Good Cop".
- Corresponding element, season, and division of a day: (cool and moist) water, winter, and deep night.
- In a person's life, it corresponds to older adulthood (roughly ages 65 and up).
- Organ: Brain
- The Yin-Yang Duo: Yin (blue).
- The Four Gods: Black Tortoise.
- Planet or Satellite: Venus and the Moon.
- Western Zodiac Signs: Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces.
- Leadership type: Levelheaded.
- Personality Blood Type: AB.
- Key Strengths: Calm, humble, an excellent assistant, spy or librarian, discreet, flexible will of steel (flexible steel), elegant (in the simpler ways), thoughtful, patient, modest, a real sweetheart, accommodating, steady-paced, sympathetic, perceptive, normally has faith in morality (or indifferent to it), very compassionate, assuming innocent until proven guilty (or alternatively rational), a good listener, open-minded, considerate, and empathetic to all.
- Cardinal Point: West.
- Typical Enneagram types: 5, 9.
- Emotion: Apathy/Indifference.
- Stereotypical Hair Color: Brown.
- Basic Taste: Sweet
- Archetypal color: Teal, green, white, gray, all shades of blue or black (the colors of the ocean).
- Sense of Humor: Dry
Nowhere in Google I could find these things that I have put in bold, and the cities in the Philippines are merely cities in Manila, and not the rest of the country. And any family member can have any of these temperaments. I have asked the people if these are necessary, and the told me they are. I beg to differ because of geopolitics, and I feel like it's shoehorning.
What to do with this?
Edited by alnair20aug93 on Jul 28th 2023 at 8:53:51 PM
ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔That is way, way too much for a trope description and the things you bolded are only the first that I'd cut.
The Revolution Will Not Be TropeableThe blood types can go on the analysis page,anyone else in favor?
New theme music also a boxI believe that blood types belong in the Analysis page.
Edited by Nen_desharu on Jul 28th 2023 at 7:32:40 AM
Kirby is awesome.I think the personality blood types might be the only thing below the Four-Philosophy Ensemble bullets that I'd keep. Everything else seems shoehorned.
The Revolution Will Not Be TropeableSo I've been thinking this for a while, but I really don't think anything outside of explaining what the different types are is necessary for the description. What blood types, philosophies, myers briggs types, astrological signs, seasons, elements, etc that can be grafted onto the Four Temperaments is just an application of the concept to those other concepts. It's not (as far as I'm aware) an inherent aspect of the concept. All of that would be better suited for the analysis page as an exploration of how this personality type system can interact with other personality type systems.
Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 28th 2023 at 2:22:23 PM
The blood types can go on the analysis page,anyone else in favor?
I don't think it's that simple. There is an official description of what personality types are linked to which humours. They come from the likes of Hippocrates and Galen and were later modernised by the likes of Adler, Pavlov, Riemann and eventually Eysenck. Whether located on the trope page or an analysis page, that's what should be discussed, both as part of the trope description and as further analysis on an analysis page as to how those real life definitions get used in works.
What's currently listed in each of folders is basically just people expanding them over time with what they personally interpret each to be, moving away from either the real life definitions or how they're really used in works. Those folders have almost transformed into a form of WMG, Fridge or speculation about each of the four humours that doesn't belong on either a trope or analysis page. I think it needs cleaning up to get back to what the official personality/blood type beliefs actually are and how they're used in works — what the objective trope and analysis of its use really are. Moving it to the analysis page in its current form is just sweeping misuse under the rug.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 29th 2023 at 3:55:23 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.I think we're all mostly in agreement. Whatever parts of that are actually part of the foundational concept and can demonstrably proven to be as such can remain part of the main description. Everything else either gets cut or if it's something that has been suggested by other systems and theories, moved to the analysis page.
Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 29th 2023 at 11:04:44 AM
The Conflicted can definately go
New theme music also a boxI'm for either moving the other aspects to Analysis; the other shoehorns either move to Just for Fun or just cutlist them entirely.
ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔When are we going to start cutlisting this?
ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
The description for Beware the Superman seems a bit odd in how it describes superhero settings that are neutral on the Sliding Scale of Idealism Versus Cynicism to be ones where good government supers are equally matched by bad rogue supers, and the more cynical settings to be ones where they are overwhelmed by them. This seems to ignore how there are lots of settings where the government isn't good.