Vindicated by History cleanup thread

While not attracting as much misuse as Condemned by History, Vindicated by History can still be misused in that:

1. It can be used to gush excessively about works that never made a splash and never really gained traction afterwards and otherwise over-exaggerate its achievements (like the Wii U entry, the ATT thread I started about it inspiring me to start this thread)

2. It can be used to say "You know, this thing that was hated then and still hated today wasn't really that bad!"

3. It developed a small fanbase but not one big or influential enough that it redeemed the work in the public's eyes

5. Someone says "X is becoming this trope". That's not how it works. Either it was vindicated or it's not. If it's "becoming" this trope, wait until it does before adding.

6. It is confused with Popularity Polynomial

7. It violates the 5-year waiting period

Edited by supernintendo128 on Jul 23rd 2022 at 1:58:21 PM

I'll start:

• Shadow the Hedgehog seems to be entering this. While it's still not considered a great game per se today, some folks actually like it and it even has its own fans, compared to when it released. Back in 2005, both critics and people alike were lambasting it for the Darker and Edgier tone, the story, the gunplay and how it made Shadow look like a complete joke. Then Sonic '06 came out... It does help that, even though the gunplay is still considered a controversial idea for a Sonic game, it works quite well and the game doesn't suffer from the Gameplay Roulette trope, unlike both Adventure games and Heroes. The over-the-top edginess also ended up working out some, though not for the reason Sega intended: it's so excessively gritty that many have found that it works better if you view it as a parody, rather than taking it seriously.

For one thing it doesn't fit this trope by its own admission "it's still not considered a great game per se today", and retrospective reviews of the game are still mostly negative. I still hear that the gunplay was a useless addition to the game seeing how you can still spin-jump and homing attack your enemies, and while the game doesn't have Gameplay Roulette, this works to the game's detriment because you have to replay the game 10 times to get the true ending, and you have to replay some levels on those routes, making the requisite repeat playthroughs repetitive. Also, the last sentence feels like an example of "if you squint your eyes it doesn't seem that bad." It being a parody definitely wasn't the author's intent and most people who laugh at this game laugh at it for the wrong reasons.

Basically reception to this game is still negative and it doesn't fit this trope.

Edited by supernintendo128 on Jul 22nd 2022 at 9:45:35 AM

This is under Web Original:

• MarioTehPlumber has never had a good reputation because of his poor-quality "reviews" of Sonic the Hedgehog (and later Nintendo) games on YouTube that suffer from his screaming into the microphone, excessive profanity and more focus on character design than gameplay, not at all helped by his aggressive retaliation to those who called him out on his behaviour. However, in his early years he was one of the most despised YouTubers on the site. The main reason for this is that, because the Sonic franchise was already infamous for its extremely divided fanbase exacerbated by a significant Vocal Minority of unpleasantly obsessive fans by the time he first began making his videos, he quickly became subjected to Poe's Law; many of his viewers didn't realise that he is a Troll and believed he was a genuinely horrible person. As time passed and he continued his formulaic style, more and more viewers eventually caught on that he had been trolling them all along and his opinions are usually either fabricated or exaggerated, especially when he uploaded a few videos where he was actually calm. While his videos are still agreed to be really bad, the growing consensus that his YouTube persona isn't genuine has mitigated much of the vocal contempt towards him, and he has even managed to gain a small fanbase from those who think his videos are so over-the-top and idiotic as to be funny.

First off, not sure how the five year rule applies to an internet video creator like him. If it starts from when he began making videos he counts, if it's since he stopped uploading videos (last one was posted in 2019) he doesn't count. But the bigger issue is that the example does seem to fall under the "well he's still hated but he wasn't THAT bad" rule you mention in the first post. That said, there are some more positive "oh I really miss your videos"-type comments on his last video here, so maybe there's some truth to this?

Yeah I feel like we should clarify how the waiting period applies to a on-going work.

I'm pretty sure works need to do a critical 180 for them to fall under this trope. Also he doesn't fit this trope by the entry's own admission ("most of his videos are still really bad") and the fact that he has a "small" fanbase makes a Small Reference Pool, which is discouraged in the trope page.

"Beware the risk of Overly Narrow Superlatives or Gushing About Shows You Like. Practically anything could seem vindicated by history if the reference pool is small enough."

Edited by supernintendo128 on Jul 22nd 2022 at 10:44:02 AM

There's also another problem I've seen of examples that are likely misplaced Acclaimed Flop entries, like this:

• Pushing Daisies got only about one season's worth of episodes in all when it was on during 2007-2009 (due to the 2008 writer's strike) but is now recognized as a unique, wonderful TV show that never got enough of a chance and series creator Bryan Fuller has even expressed interest in doing a revival of sorts.

As a fan of the series, I can say that Pushing Daisies was critically acclaimed right from its pilot episode, and is it flopping audience-wise enough to call it vindicated? I'm of the mind that both critics and audiences have to come around to a work for it count, but that could just be me.

Edited by harryhenry on Jul 22nd 2022 at 8:52:26 AM

The way that entry is worded makes it seem like the show was a critical flop in addition to a commercial one upon its initial airing. If it was critically acclaimed from day 1 it does seem like it would fall more under Acclaimed Flop.

Another problem I noticed on the page itself: The VindicatedByHistory.Web Animation subpage only has 4 examples, which doesn't seem to warrant a separate page. And some of the examples seem questionable:

• Starship Regulars: Like Galaxy Quest, the show is seen as a Star Trek parody done right. The release of Star Trek: Lower Decks made the web cartoon's strengths stand out more.

This seems more an excuse to take apart Lower Decks, as it doesn't really indicate it was vindicated beyond being compared to a newer show.

Edited by harryhenry on Jul 22nd 2022 at 9:43:02 AM

That seems like a definite cut.

On VindicatedByHistory.Video Games:

• An example that is unfortunately a bit mirred with Americans Hate Tingle: At the height of their controversy, the CEO of Konami made a statement of "Mobile gaming is the future of gaming.", inspired by the success of Puzzle & Dragons^note And also their own losses caused by the slump of Japanese developers around the 2000's-2010's, failing to appease the Western audience with some of their attempts at Darker and Edgier things, starting an Audience-Alienating Era that would get worse later.. The gaming community laughed and ridiculed that statement, and at worst, they use that statement as a proof that Konami has truly burned the bridges with the console gaming community, which was not helped with their other actions (controversy with Hideo Kojima, an interview that portrayed them in an extremely bad light), all of them contributing with their fall from grace and they're seen as nothing more as an example of greedy, abusive company. However, as years go by, mobile gaming really did improve, producing high quality games that goes beyond minigame fest and Shovelware and generating their own stable community (despite having to endure ridicules and accusations from the PC/Console gamers), looking like it's posing to take the world by storm (But for now, success are mostly contained in the Eastern region of the world). Ever since then, Konami has retreated back to Japan where it continued to have a modest success in a region that moved past the controversy and even became selected as the manager of the e-sport scene in Japan, and maintained good relationship with China's Tencent Games (which has a lot of mobile games). In a way, if you're on the camp that tolerates or embraces mobile gaming, Konami could look a bit prophetic in envisioning the success of mobile gaming, and their exodus from console gaming that end up being either too expensive or mirred with controversies after controversies might have a point for their own survival, but unfortunately, Americans Hate Tingle is still on full effect on them and they might not be able vindicate that one in the area.

This example was recently added, and besides having a Wall of Text problem and that it seems to be part of a wider Single-Issue Wonk the troper has, it highlights another possible issue with the trope: Does a vindication count if it only happens in one specific region? The example even admits that Konami still has a negative reputation in the west.

Edited by harryhenry on Jul 22nd 2022 at 10:41:12 AM

> "Ever since then, Konami has retreated back to Japan where it continued to have a modest success in a region that moved past the controversy and even became selected as the manager of the e-sport scene in Japan, and maintained good relationship with China's Tencent Games (which has a lot of mobile games)."

Ok, ignoring the absurdity of that claim (that's the first I heard of it), that part looks like a blatant shoehorn that's irrelevant to the topic. Should probably be cut.

@ Pushing Daisies: I think Cult Classic might be a better fit since it is true its found a pretty devoted fandom despite flopping before.

• Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel also received mixed critical reception but was savaged by Fallout fans for the contradictions to the lore, the deviation from the established tone and aesthetic, and getting Fallout: Van Buren delayed and canceled, which eventually led to Bethesda Softworks striking it from canon. With the disastrous release of Fallout 76 (as well as some behind-the-scenes drama and shady business tactics), Brotherhood of Steel is no longer universally considered to be the worst Fallout game released to date.

This boils down to "X was considered the worst, but then Y came out and X is no longer considered the worst". Brotherhood of Steel didn't undergo a critical re-evaluation after 76 came out and this entry doesn't even list a single redeeming quality that Brotherhood of Steel has other than "it's not the worst anymore". That's like saying "yeah eating your own poop sucks but stepping barefoot on broken glass is worse". Also, people argue that Bethesda fixed 76 with time and that Brotherhood of Steel is still the worst Fallout game regardless.

Edited by supernintendo128 on Jul 23rd 2022 at 12:01:50 PM

Honestly I think the whole video game page needs to be cleaned up, so I'll just do a write-up starting with the first few folders:

Consoles

• The Internet has been helping classic game consoles to get more recognition:
  • For years, the Nintendo Entertainment System was the oldest system that is still remotely greatly remembered. Consoles such as the Sega Master System and any game console that came before the NES were fading away into obscurity. However, as the Internet became more and more accessible, there was a lot more information on older games. Some may say that retro gaming is still relatively niche, but the Internet has definitely made learning about them a whole lot easier. Keep, but it should be mentioned how these consoles have become more appreciated over the years
  • A large number of games and game systems that were never released outside Japan. Back in the 1990s, only the truly nerdy or anyone who had been to Japan knew that systems such as the Playdia, the Wonderswan, the FM Towns Marty, or the PC-FX even existed. This seems over-generalized. Maybe replace with some specific examples.
  • The NES and Sega Master System are starting to get more popular in the UK. Earlier in their lifespan, they were dropped in favor of microcomputers (like the Commodore 64 and Sinclair ZX Spectrum) because many of them thought they had primitive graphics compared to microcomputers. As the Internet started to become more and more available, many people in the UK realised that the assumption that their microcomputers had better graphics was wrong and now the NES and Sega Master System are more popular. I could've sworn I read once that the Master System actually did well in the UK but the NES failed to gain a foothold there. Maybe rewrite?
  • The emulation community has been instrumental in resurrecting games and consoles that would have been popular had they not failed to gain an audience due to poor marketing, were squashed by competition, or otherwise failed to find their stride. People being one Google search away from playing any game on any older console has given a lot of these older works a fair shot at winning over a crowd and finding a fan base. Too generalized
• Believe it or not, the Virtual Boy gets this to a certain degree. It's still seen as a massive failure and still the butt of many jokes, but the system does have a sizable cult fanbase. It helps that many people have seen that the system did have some good games to the point there is a sizable demand for the games to be released via the Virtual Console. Another thing that might have helped redeem the Virtual Boy (at least in concept) is that people are showing a renewed interest in 3D heads-up displays like the Oculus Rift, which demonstrate how the Virtual Boy could have worked if it had modern technology (and a reasonable development cycle). This was already commented out. By its own admission it doesn't fit this trope and falls more under Cult Classic. Should we remove entirely?
• While vindication wasn't needed in most of the world, in North America the TurboGrafx-16 went almost completely unnoticed. At first this was mostly due to the loud Console Wars between the Super NES and Sega Genesis in the region drowning it out, but it later effectively buried itself with its "Johnny Turbo" advertising campaign, which tried to adopt the same attitude as Sega but backfired with its especially hostile attitude. Then through a combination of the Wii Virtual Console bringing a large chunk of its library to modern audiences, and the growing Internet connecting North American gamers to regions where the PC Engine was popular, it finally started to develop a decently sized local following. I think we can keep this one
• Basically any console that got its ass handed to it by PlayStation.
  • The Sega Saturn. It never really caught on (due to Executive Meddling and botched marketing in the U.S.), but word of mouth through the Internet captured the interest of hardcore gamers looking to indulge in its arcade perfect Shoot 'Em Up and fighting game library (in some cases, like Twinkle Star Sprites and Street Fighter Alpha 3, the Saturn versions are considered superior to the Dreamcast versions). There were the exclusives like Panzer Dragoon Saga, Burning Rangers, and other notable titles that still can't be had on any other platform without emulation. As a result, it's seen as much less of a failure and more of a must-have for any hardcore gamer these days, especially those who like arcade games. The Japanese marketing campaign (which had a narrative arc featuring mascot Segata Sanshiro) was also discovered in North America years after the system died out, and was considered to be one of the most effective video game system campaigns of all time. When all the specs are put together, the Saturn may very well have been the greatest 2D graphics console of its time; alas, this was during a period when 3D graphics were being heavily pushed to the forefront — regardless as to how much better the Saturn performed in the prior category. Keep
  • The Sega Dreamcast was launched with much fanfare in 1999 but was soon overpowered by the much more successful Play Station 2 in all areas. Its games were slammed in reviews for not being up to par with what the PS2 was churning out, and Sega's inability to attract third party developers (most notably EA) severely hampered the system (not helping was the fact you could pirate its games by just burning them onto a blank CD, or that SEGA's attempt to mitigate this by producing the "GD-ROM", which could fit 1GB worth of files and data, only drove up SEGA's expenses). It "died" in less than a year and a half after its debut and was seen as a failure during the rest of the sixth console generation. Even worse is that, after Sonic games started to take a massive nosedive in quality, a lot of people accused it of being the console that killed Sonic, as the Adventure titles, of which they were exclusive titles on for a while, were beginning to get accused of beginning certain conventions in the Sonic franchise that seemingly "killed it." However, since then, opinions on the system have largely shifted to it being a great system that was ahead of its time. In particular, it is known for its string of arcade-perfect ports of shmups and Fighting Games, as well as its more solid and obscure titles, are often on many Top 10 lists. There exists a Homebrew community that still, to this day, makes and releases games for the system (be they from scratch or ports from the arcade). The Dreamcast also marked one of the best outputs from Sega itself in terms of quality first-party games in the form of new IPs. This console saw the rise of soon to be mainstays (even if only in cameos) like Jet Set Radio, Skies of Arcadia, Space Channel 5, ChuChu Rocket!, Shenmue, and a veritable slew of others. Although not necessarily failing now, Sega hasn't hit a string of home runs quite like that ever since then. Keep
  • The Nintendo Game Cube. It was in third place in the sixth generation (only a couple million units behind the original Xbox), with gamers deriding it as a "kiddie" console (granted, compared to the other consoles of its generation, it did look like a toy). It also suffered from few third-party exclusives, divisive first-party titles, and many best-selling T and M-rated titles such as Grand Theft Auto and Metal Gear releasing on the other consoles but not the GameCube. In fact, it cost a lot for Capcom, as the only way they recouped their losses was by porting some of their games, most famously most of the supposed-to-be-exclusive "Capcom 5" like Resident Evil 4, to PS2. However, several games have become Cult Classics, or have simply been revisited and given the accolades they deserve. It helps that the much more successful Wii was fully compatible with GameCube games until later in its life, making it easier for people to play games for the latter without actually having to buy one. With critics putting increased emphasis on the importance of quick loading times in the modern age, the GameCube's design towards faster loads (in the form of smaller disks and special RAM caches) is also becoming more appreciated. Keep
  • The Nintendo 64. While it did decently in the US and actually put up a fairly decent fight with the PS1 later in its life, it was Nintendo's first console to lose its respective console war thanks to a number of factors (such as Nintendo's steadfast refusal to use a CD-based format despite its many cost and storage conveniences over cartridges, and the company's firm censorship policies - which were becoming especially problematic at a time when the audience for video games was growing up and craving more "adult" games). Throughout the 2000s, the system was looked back on rather unfavorably by a good portion of the video game press, unfairly perceived as having nothing to offer but first and second party Nintendo games. Fortunately, the 2010s saw a wave of nostalgia for the system. Many expressed affection not only for its known classics such as Super Mario 64, Goldeneye 1997 and The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, but also (re)discovered a number of forgotten third party exclusives like Beetle Adventure Racing and Rocket: Robot on Wheels. Today, the Nintendo 64 is looked at much more favorably than it was in the mid-2000s. And many have petitioned for some of its lesser known gems to finally see re-release on the Switch's Nintendo 64 service. I think we can keep, the N64, while it sold well, ended up with the reputation of being the console for "babies and nerds".
  • Play Station Vita was the worst-selling Play Station device thanks to Sony's policies. But interest to PS Vita increased over time thanks to piracy on the system with homebrew games, like Mario Kart Vita and Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas port. Needs expanding
• Play Station 3:
  • Sony's standard-bearer for the Seventh Generation suffered a disastrous launch where one of the most anticipated new consoles in gaming history became hated by the entire Internet. It was incredibly expensive, it was openly described as a 'Trojan Horse' for the Blu-ray format which few gamers were interested in at the time (and was blamed for the high price), it had very few quality games due to being notoriously difficult to design for (and several poor-quality games getting inflated reviews), it suffered from the downright bizarre antics of Ken Kutaragi, it had crazy ads, and it was overshadowed by the cheaper, better-selling, and innovative Wii and by the comparatively conventional yet more economical Xbox 360. People trying to defend it usually only made the problem worse.
    But around 2008, with the backlash having died down and a growing number of quality games like Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots and LittleBigPlanet being available for the system, Sony pulled off a successful rebranding, with the new PlayStation Slim (countering the accusations that the original was both oversized and overpriced) having a much more subdued and focused ad campaign ("It only does everything"). Furthermore, the Blu-ray format and the built-in hard drive, maligned in 2006 as pointless add-ons that did little but drive up the price, are now seen as having given the system legs in the long term, allowing it to play games that the competing Xbox 360 simply didn't have the storage space for (many multi-platform games needed multiple discs on the 360 and only one on the PS3). The fact that developers were still able to push the boundaries of what the PS3 was technically capable of all the way into 2013 was probably a major factor in why the Seventh Generation lasted eight years, something that would've been unthinkable beforehand — and when the Xbox One launched, it had a Blu-Ray drive and a 500 GB HDD just like the Play Station 4. Can we really call it a case of Vindicated by History if the vindicating happens during the console's run?
  • In April 2011, the PS3's network infrastructure was compromised by hackers, who stole boatloads of personal information and forced Sony to shut down the entire network. Sony was widely ridiculed for its poor security encryption and for taking nearly a week to address the problem. The PlayStation Network was down for at least three weeks, drawing the ire of gamers and even politicians everywhere. However, after the fiasco was over, Sony was able to win the public's trust once again, with some free programs to make up for it and insurance that such an incident would never happen again. This feels more like an Author's Saving Throw.

Final Fantasy

(I haven't played the FF games so bear with me)

• For a long time, the most common review of Final Fantasy V in the West ran along the lines of "the characters are flat but the gameplay is great." V had a rocky introduction outside of Japan—it didn't come over with IV and VI, meaning it was only accessible through an emulated translation for the truly dedicated. When it was included with the Anthology release in the late 90s, it was a Translation Train Wreck, and its reputation of "flat characters in an Excuse Plot" stuck even after a 2006 GBA port redid the entire translation from the ground up. Although it's still not as popular as IV and VI, the writing itself is becoming more appreciated as memory of the PlayStation's travesty fades, the characters get more exposure through tie-in games (starting with Bartz in Dissidia), and fans newly come to the series start with the good translation. Plus, many have grown to appreciate the game's more lighthearted and humorous tone, when compared to the far more story-driven IV and the more serious VI. Looks good to me
• When it was first released, Final Fantasy VIII was perhaps the most base-breaking entry in the series. Among other things, the preceding Final Fantasy VII brought with it an enormous Newbie Boom (especially among European players), and many players who got into the series through FFVII were confused and upset when the "sequel" took place in another universe with a completely different cast of characters and completely different gameplay mechanics—though even some long-time fans also took issue with the game. However, Final Fantasy VII developing Hype Backlash and Wolverine Publicity, future games also having their fair share of divisiveness not to mention Squall being featured in more titles, has earned VIII more fans and defenders. Today, VIII tends to be appreciated for its more experimental aspects. Maybe expand on this, talk about why it's so praised today
• Final Fantasy IX has been stated as series creator Hironobu Sakaguchi's favorite; however, the game's sales was a disappointment in the series' standards, selling only 6 million copies compared to VIII (with 8 million) and especially VII (10 million), and fan reception was mixed^note Not helping the game's case was its release date in 2000, a time where the Sony Play Station 2 was just released in both sides of the Pacific, as well as the Broken Base generated by VIII. However, over the years, both new and old fans of the series have come to appreciate the narrative and character development of IX far more than when it came out — and so, generally speaking, this is the least "contested" of the PlayStation-era Final Fantasy installments, and the one to most widely have its virtues acknowledged. It helps that the game was actually a critical darling from the get-go (it holds a score of 94/100 on Metacritic, the site's highest score for a Final Fantasy game), and to this day it is generally regarded as one of the greatest video games of all time, an opinion that many Final Fantasy fans have come around to agree with (though how it ranks compared to other similarly-acclaimed entries in the series remains up to debate). I thought "keep" until I read that it got rave reviews on day 1. I guess it still counts since fan reception wasn't as good at launch? I'm not sure.
• Final Fantasy X was the first game in the franchise to take a stab at using full voice acting. It wasn't too well received at first since most fans saw most of the characters having grossly exaggerated accents, bad pacing (this was due to the English voice actors trying to match the lip flaps on the character models, which were synced for Japanese voice acting), and the infamous laughing scene where Tidus and Yuna have the most over-the-top fake laugh to force themselves to smile (which enough people mistook for actual bad voice acting for it to become infamous). Over time, fans revisiting the game grew to like the flavor of each voice every character had and the laughing scene was viewed in a more positive light once the context behind it was understood. I guess we could keep.
• Final Fantasy XII. Although the game generally scored well with critics and always had its fair share of fans, it also developed backlash from many others for its changes to the formula among other numerous criticisms. And as with other divisive entries in the series, appreciation for XII gradually increased over time. Again, this is mostly due to XIII being similarly divisive upon its release, but also due to Xenoblade Chronicles 1, another well-received JRPG, using very similar mechanics. The story itself was largely vindicated later, once it was clear that Vaan wasn't the protagonist and the story wasn't centered around him. It also helps that FFXII's storyline and plot have been likened to Game of Thrones, which hugely popularized the concepts of sweeping political intrigue and moral ambiguity in fantasy/sci-fi settings. Its localization and voice-acting are also widely regarded to be the best among the series and something of a landmark accomplishment, even by people who don't enjoy the game overall. Same point with IX, can it count if critical reception was positive from day 1?
• Final Fantasy XIV:
  • When it launched in 2010, it was considered to be a massive disaster among fans and critics. Complaints ranged from confusing and archaic gameplay mechanics, constant lag due to servers being hosted only in Japan, poorly optimized graphics that caused a lot of people being unable to play their game on their computers, and content that slowly trickled down as the developers patched things up as they happened, which meant players would constantly have very little to do. Back then, you would be hard pressed to find anyone defending the game. While the remade game a few years later was a massive success, a handful of fans from the pre-remake days pined for the old ideas and mechanics that had potential while also stating that 1.0 wasn't as bad as people had made it out to be. It says a "handful of fans" and it seems to fall into the category of "oh come on guys it wasn't that bad" so I'm on the fence on this one. EDIT: As miraculous pointed out, the 1.0 version of this game has an entry on So Bad, It's Horrible, so that disqualifies it for this page.
  • Stormblood is considered to have been the weakest expansion. Due to a mixture of Heavensward being a very Tough Act to Follow, people viewed Ala Mhigans as Unintentionally Unsympathetic, and because its pacing problems where it alternates between taking too long to move and wrapping everything up as fast as possible. It also suffered from a particularly rocky launch. However, some people who joined the game before or even during its Newbie Boom didn't find it to be that bad - and some long-time players actually said that it really wasn't that bad. "Some" people. On the fence on this one
• Many gamers who purchased Final Fantasy Tactics when it was first released were disappointed with it (probably because it was so different from the popular Final Fantasy VII). However, over time, the FFT fans convinced enough people to try it (or give it a second chance) that it gained a lot of popularity for its tactical mechanics and storyline that dealt with a lot of mature themes (classism, religious corruption). It was notoriously difficult for most gamers to try it for a long, long time; its initial sales were so poor that it was discontinued soon after release, and thus, once people discovered it and it gained its reputation, used copies sold on eBay for upwards of $150 (USD) until it was re-issued as part of the "PlayStation Greatest Hits" line. Keep
  • In fact, Penny Arcade did a comic about buying a copy of FFT five years after it was released.
• Final Fantasy Tactics Advance was, in 2003, very divisive among fans due to its Lighter and Softer atmosphere compared to the original Tactics (Itself somewhat of a Tough Act to Follow). Marche and the rest of the characters were often seen as Unintentionally Unsympathetic, and fans debated on whether or not Marche was even a hero for his actions of wanting his friends and brother to face reality. However, when people played it with a much older perspective, they noticed that the game actually does have some mature themes within it, looking into the effects of divorce on children, the stages of grief, multiple deconstructions, and learning that excessive escapism isn't good. Keep

This is getting too long so I'll leave it here for now. What does anybody think?

Edited by supernintendo128 on Jul 23rd 2022 at 2:33:57 PM

Final Fantasy 14's original version 1.0 is literally on the So Bad Its Horrible page and was considered a massive disgrace to the franchise. Like the fact that FF 14 was able after it's reboot go onto become the the most popular MMO in the world is still held as a testament to how to turn things around.

I do not think the original version has been vindicted if people will gush about how things improved from a disaster this was.

Edited by miraculous on Jul 23rd 2022 at 12:27:19 PM

I did not notice that. So will definitely cut.

I definitely wouldn't list the PS 3

It was never considered a bad console, it just had slow adoption because of the price-point compared to the 360 and Wii at launch. Once Sony worked out to implement price drops it's sales skyrocketed.

I mean it was considered inferior to the Xbox 360 early on but as Sony did everything they could to fix the PS3's reputation and as people figured out what the system was really capable of, combined with Microsoft's own fumblings, it pulled through in the end. But yeah I agree with the cut.

Edited by supernintendo128 on Jul 23rd 2022 at 3:14:06 AM

What should be done with works that got great critical reception from day 1 but poor audience reception that improved over the years? Does it fall under Vindicated by History if critical reception was always positive but fan reception was initially poor?

I would say if fits both under Critical Dissonance and VBH. I mention this because there's some movies that are praised and loved by the internet nowadays (Man of Steel, The Incredible Hulk) but on release were trashed by audiences, while critical reception to them was far kinder.

lol I liked Man of Steel when it came out, but then again I'm not a big Superman fan or a comic book fan in general.

So will keep the entries for IX and XII.

What about Stormblood? Has the general opinion on that expansion turned around? The words "some people" has me doubt that. Are there any Final Fantasy fans who can help me with this?

As someone who have only played the SNES Final Fantasy games, as well as FFXII, I can say that both the entries for V and XII are good.

Regarding XII, it would be great to cut out the GoT Fan Myopia.

Edited by Nen_desharu on Jul 24th 2022 at 9:00:45 AM

I'm a bit iffy on FFV because honestly, I don't recollect much was said about FFV at all in the years it took between its Super Famicom release and the Gameboy Advance release. Even after doing a small internet research, I can't find much in the way of reviews and most importantly, fan opinions from the time period. So I can't honestly say if the game was ever considered "bad" enough for it to be VBH.

Edited by Edgar81539 on Jul 24th 2022 at 10:11:24 AM

The Incredible Hulk is "beloved by the internet?" I thought it was mostly known as the movie people forget is in the MCU.

I also would argue that Man of Steel is still a base-breaking film.

There's plenty of comments in the videos and the fights consistently have massive numbers in youtube, compared to the much lesser numbers from the Hulk's latter fights. https://youtu.be/n4tWT-Tzff0 https://youtu.be/pfgmvMHc4us

Notice the top comments saying stuff like "Best Hulk" "This Hulk would have clapped Thanos" "Universal Studios understood that Hulk is meant to be unstoppable" "Back when Hulk was a real deal", etc. So yes, the movie is beloved through the internet, that meme is IMO an overstatement.

"Base-breaking" doesn't preclude VBH. There's highly controversial works that still go from being trashed by audiences to getting warmer reactions after enough time. And, if anything, Henry Cavill went from being seen as a lesser Reeves replacement to becoming known as THE Superman of a generation, so it would still fit under the trope.

Edited by Edgar81539 on Jul 24th 2022 at 10:34:34 AM

Hulk vs the Hulkbuster from Age of Ultron has about the same number of views.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BSG5iHK9Scw

I really question You Tube views and comments as a measure of popularity since the algorithm is so unknowable. Additionally, comments can only be upvoted. There's no meaningful way to disagree.