To-do list:

• Merge any information about the honorifics Senpai/Kōhai covers with UsefulNotes.Japanese Honorifics (if it isn't already covered there) and redirect the former to the latter, and clean up wicks.

Wick check:

Senpai/Kōhai refers to the Japanese dynamic between a junior (kōhai) and a senior (senpai) in school and work settings, which is honestly not tropeworthy as-is. Tropes that involve honorifics and terms of address are all in the Useful Notes namespace, and this "trope" isn't different from a UN page since it doesn't describe any storytelling. This wick check, then, will confirm whether there's more to this trope than mere ZCEs/chairs-y examples and if there's additional context than just "X & Y have this relationship" and if there are other narrower concepts here.

Wicks checked: 50/50.

• Quick analysis:
  • 41/50 are chairs-y examples and contextless potholes, or 82%.
  • 3/50 are examples where these terms/this dynamic is used as a plot point, or 6%.
  • 6/50 are examples with other various contexts that don't share a common pattern to form a concept, or 12%.

• Long Analysis: The majority of the wicks are "X is the Senpai/Kohai to Y" or "characters have this relationship" ZCEs or contextless potholes which don't tell us anything noteworthy about this concept's usage in fiction. 15 of the wicks in the "chairs" category being nothing but potholes suggest that this is very close to becoming a Pothole Magnet. Moreover, there are some examples where this dynamic is made a plot-important element, however, there are only 3 examples that aren't enough to be their own trope. Finally, there are some other examples with various kinds of context but they don't have anything in common to be their own trope either.
  
  
• Solutions:
  • Cut the page. There's no need for a merge, especially since it's already mentioned on Japanese Honorifics.
  • "But selkies, this is distinct/significant enough to have its own page!" cried the tropers. Then, we can keep it but move the page to the Useful Notes namespace, like how Korean Sibling Terminology is already mentioned in Korean Honorifics, but it still has its own page.
  • Yard the "senpai/kōhai dynamic and terms are used as a plot point" (has 3 examples) and the "senior/junior dynamic where the junior deeply respects and looks up to the senior, who's reliable and more experienced" concepts (haven't found examples of this, but hey, it's still a viable idea).

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Chairs and contextless potholes:

Additional context:

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Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 13th 2023 at 11:00:53 AM

Opening

Macron's notes

Redirect to Japanese Honorifics

ETA: I don't disagree with this. I think a tropeworthy version of that idea would be something like Protective Senpai Idolizing Kohai. But as it stands, currently it seems like the trope is being used for any time a story points out when two characters call each other this/can technically be called senpai/kohai without focusing on the relationship.

Edited by amathieu13 on Apr 8th 2023 at 2:00:48 PM

Not a vote, but I disagree with the premise of OP that a trope has to have plot significance to not be chairs. It can easily be for characterization significance as well. Language that contextualizes dynamic between two characters would fall into that.

OK edit since I've thought about this more: The linguistic stuff can surely be punted to UN, but building on my earlier thought that it doesn't need to be plot-relevant, most of the on-page examples are acceptably "junior/senior dynamic" imo. Examples that only say "A is a third-year while B is a first-year" are not tropeworthy, but "A is a third-year who mentors first-year B, who is respectful and deferential to A in accordance with cultural norms" is already that.

Official vote: Incorporate "senpai/kohai" into Japanese Honorifics but keep "cultural junior/senior dynamic" as its own trope (this might result in a disambig between these two pages)

Edited by Synchronicity on Apr 8th 2023 at 1:11:00 PM

Plot or characterization, it still needs to have significance and this isn't a matter of opinion, taste, or choice; it's a matter of the site rules. All tropes need to have some significance of some sort or they'll eventually get nuked just like in the case of most appearance tropes.

Senpai/Kōhai has neither plot nor characterization significance, it's just "this dynamic exists between A and B." So? What about it? Are they foils? Rivals? Friends? What does such dynamic include/mean for the relationship between the 2 characters?

I'm talking about examples like this from the Senpai/Kōhai page. These are not all the examples I think are applicable, but just a sampling for the purposes of discussion:

Like my post said, I am not trying to keep all the times someone calls someone else 'senpai'; those should be cut. But I think examples like these already explain how seeing someone as a senior in a setting that encourages this affects their relationship (seeing them as cool, letting them lead, keeping the deference even as adults, allowing your personality to be affected by them), so we can keep that concept.

Edited by Synchronicity on Apr 8th 2023 at 1:18:55 PM

for Japanese Honorifics.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report

I do agree a Senpai / Kohai trope that focused on it as a relationship dynamic is tropeworthy (similar to tropes like Aloof Leader, Affable Subordinate, Red Oni, Blue Oni, Talker and Doer, etc) but as it is there a lot of examples whose context is just "X is the senpai of Y", which are ZCE.

I think renaming to something like Senpai Kohai Dynamic and deleting or moving the misuse could work. But if nothing else I think the concept should at least be yarded.

Redirect to Japanese Honorifics.

If there's a trope to salvage from this, take it to TLP. We don't have enough to work with as-is.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 8th 2023 at 2:22:37 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

@Synch, I don't think we're concerned with on-page examples. These are useful in case someone wants to draft up an idea out of the trope and needs more examples.

Also, the first example is technically covered by Insistent Terminology.

I think a noteworthy example should be like "Mei looks up to her senpai Aya and never opposes her orders ans commands while Aya guides Mei and helps her improve her skills and protects her from harm's way." It should explain why such dynamic is noteworthy / significant like Ham and Deadpan Duo, Boke and Tsukkomi Routine, etc. should point out their differences & how their r/s plays out.

I mean, I'm always willing to take a concept I agree with to TLP. But I would like confirmation that the track I'm on about the dynamic characterization is right.

Not necessarily. We're not as concerned with them as we are wicks. Crosswicking applies to these things as well, if these are right then they can easily be crosswicked.

I feel weird about this thread because I brought this in in the past when this was “Sempai/Kohai” and apparently didn’t notice the problems here.

Anyway abstaining from voting until there is more discussion. Seems there’s disagreement here and I don’t know enough about this subject to offer my own thoughts.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Apr 8th 2023 at 5:01:30 AM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall

I'd rather this folder was split up and also have the examples with potholes separated, so I'd think more clearly what to think of this. Because "X is this" is a ZCE magnet (just a real world terminology), while "X addresses Y as ..." to me is characterization, meaning there would be enough to work with.

Edited by Amonimus on Apr 8th 2023 at 12:57:51 PM

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

"X addressed Y as" doesn't tell us much that's remarkable. Replace senpai with onee-san, onii-chan, sama, or kun. What makes senpai stand out/significant from the rest who all indicate the type of the r/s between the addresser and the addressee.

Anyway, none of the examples are of the "X addresses Y as Z". It's exactly like how I sorted them: "X is the Y to Z" or "X & Y have this relationship" without relevant context on the relationship.

The only Japanese honorific trope we have is Onee-sama and even then it's troping the kind of role such a character plays. So if there's any trope here then it's the Experienced or Protective Senpai/Idolizing Kohai.

I think, we need both: A trope for actively using the Senpai/Kohei relationship. But this should explicitely not expect to have the words "Kohei" or "Senpai" used and include non japanese examples too. And in fact we should emphasize, that only using the terminology without the dynamics shouldn't fit this trope. On the other hand we still need the Useful note for terminology itself.

By the way: while I was reading this disussion, I had 2 different animes in mind, which uses the dynamics. And then I saw, that they both aren't included in the example list...

I already addressed the dynamics trope part.

If there are examples you can think of that aren't listed, they can be added to the draft. The fact that they aren't already listed supports my point that we don't have enough to work with as-is, because it points toward more example farming being needed.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 8th 2023 at 1:31:17 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Kohei is a given name, kōhai is the honorific.

What do you mean by keeping the useful notes? Which one are you talking about since Senpai/Kōhai doesn't have a UN page yet?

So, you mean turning this into a non-Japanese-centric senior/junior dynamic? This still won't solve the issue bc the dynamic such a relationship offers differs from a culture to another + it hasn't been defined yet and I didn't come across examples that explain/follow a specific dynamic for us to retool the trope into that pattern.

Edited by selkies on Apr 9th 2023 at 1:13:41 PM

Due to the lack of a clear definition for the dynamic, I stand by my vote to redirect to Japanese Honorifics.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 9th 2023 at 5:58:59 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

Then let me try to give an exact definition:

"Given is a school which expects the older students to mentor the younger students and in return the younger students are expected to respect the older students for this. Then the senpai/kohai dynamics applies, when one of the following conditions is met:

a) We see the senpai is tutoring the kohai and the kohai is in return respecting the senpai.

b) We see the senpai is tutoring the kohai and we can assume, that the kohai is respecting the senpai.

c) We see the kohai respecting the senpai for actively being a mentor for him. This mentoring can be done in the past, too."

Here are some clarifications:

1.) Being a respected mentor in the school is not enough to fulfil the senpai/kohai dynamics. This mentorship has to be enforced by the school system or the school itself. A senpai has to be expected to be the mentor of the kohai alone by the fact, that he is in a upper school year than the kohei.

2.) This definition doesn't define this dynamics as japanese only dynamics. It can be in every state, where the school system expects this kind of mentorship dynamics. This trope can even be fulfilled, if the school itself enforces these dynamics although the state, where the school is, doesn't enforce this dynamics.

3.) Calling someone "Senpai" is not enough to fulfill the definition of the trope. It has to be shown, that there is a kohai/senpai relationship between the affected people. Calling "senpai" to show, that these people know each other or that they had attended the same school is not enough to fulfill the definition of this trope. On the other hand, calling someone "Senpai" to give a lazy explanation, why he follows his advices would be an example of this trope, even if it is a bad example.

Edited by Tigerle on Apr 9th 2023 at 3:42:54 PM

Are you offering these points as examples? Because Senpai/Kōhai isn't limited to school environments, it's used between colleagues in the workplace, in organizations where there's a mentorship-like relationship, etc.

Also, I don't think we have examples like the ones you described except maybe for one on-page example and it's not school-specific nor meets all your criteria.

Indeed, you are right, that the restriction of a school is much to restrictive. For me the important part is to show, that there is a kohei/senpai relationship, which itself is tropeworthy and differs from simple mentorship. And I am not sure, if we want to include all of institutions, where we have a senpai/kohai relationship or if we want restrict ourself on schools. I think, my first definition can be easily adjusted into the other case. And for me, both variants are equally fine.

The given examples are examples, where this trope doesn't fit Or where this trope just barely fits. I wanted to show the limits of this definition, not some ideal examples.

If I shall you give some good examples: Love Live! Superstar!! (2nd season) or Sound! Euphonium. In both examples the Senpai/Kohai dynamics is an important part of the story.

Edited by Tigerle on Apr 9th 2023 at 4:15:32 PM

for redirecting to Japanese Honorifics.

Graffiti Wall

Leaning now to redirecting and yarding the dynamic.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup

So far we have 5 votes for redirecting to Japanese Honorifics. There's yarding the "protective or experienced Senpai/idolizing Kōhai" dynamic too but we can do that regardless of TRS decision.

Do we have other options so far?

I can't think of anything else since, as I've said previously, we don't have enough examples to do the retool without TLP.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.