Opening, but also clocking.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
OP, please do a wick check next time. I am very wary of Duplicate Trope threads that are opened but there's no proof that the tropes are being conflated, if at all.
Now looking at the concepts, they seem different in scale to me (but I am an avowed Batfamily fan).
- A crossover that would involve the entire Marvel universe is Crisis Crossover.
- A crossover that only involves the X-Men and affiliated characters is a Bat Family Crossover.
- A crossover that involves Film.X Men, ComicBook.X Men, and WesternAnimation.X Men Evolution is an Intra-Franchise Crossover.
So I'm not really seeing the dupe issue right now.
Edited by Synchronicity on Jun 10th 2020 at 10:34:43 AM
Very Spooky
Adding on to what Synchronicity said, unless it’s definitely clear that two tropes are duplicates of each other from their descriptions, you can’t just tell that tropes are duplicates of each other from their laconics alone.
Edited by jandn2014 on Jun 10th 2020 at 11:35:58 AM
back lol
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yup. Laconics are in general very unindicative of the trope's actual meaning — see the Laconic improvement project
. So I'm going to argue against any action to be taken if the laconic is the only proof.
I’ve never done a wick check before and they seem quite lengthy and complicated, but here are the non-Comic OP Es
- The Pretty Cure All Stars movies. Eight have been made, with the last uniting thirteen seasons/eleven teams of magical girls for a grand total of 43 (plus one Original Generation character).-Intra-Franchise Crossover
- Thanks to the fact that the franchise kept going, All Stars eventually had to be discontinued and replaced by Dream Stars, which restricts the represented teams to the most recent 3. -Possibly an example
- In the 1980s, Studio Pierrot did a movie with the heroines of their magical girl shows teaming up. -Crisis Crossover
- Yu-Gi-Oh!: Bonds Beyond Time has the main characters of the first three series team up. -Intra-Franchise Crossover
- The movie "Grendizer, Getter Robo G, Great Mazinger: Battle! Giant Sea Beast" that feature some of famous Go Nagai mecha shows fight the Dragosaurus, a mysterious prehistoric animal. -Crisis Crossover
- Subverted in Amazing Fantasy. Izuku lucked out in getting his powers when he did. Peter says he dodged a shitshow involving interdimensional vampires, alluding to the events of Spider-Verse and Spider-Geddon. -I don’t even know
- Skyhold Academy Yearbook is a Lighter and Softer combination of this and High School AU for the Dragon Age franchise. It features characters from all of the games and supplemental materials, many of whom would never normally interact with each other (or at least not pleasantly), in a modern setting framed around a Boarding School. -Intra-Franchise Crossover
- There are plans for this down the line in Sony's Universe of Marvel Characters, since they only own the rights to Spider-Man, his supporting characters gallery, his rogues gallery and the heroes spun off from him. -Crisis Crossover
- A Muppet Family Christmas, which goes beyond the regular Muppet cast to include other cornerstones of the creations of Jim Henson, such as Sesame Street, Fraggle Rock, and Muppet Babies. -Crisis Crossover
- There was talk of doing one of these for Law & Order, Law & Order: Special Victims Unit, and Law & Order: Criminal Intent when the latter launched, with all three shows investigating a potential terrorist attack on New York City from different angles. And then 9/11 happened. -Crisis Crossover
- Kamen Riders often meet each other in their movies, although given the sheer variety of the Kamen Rider verse, this could count more as a Crisis Crossover. Kamen Rider × Super Sentai: Super Hero Taisen and its sequels wander into Crisis Crossover territory. -Intra-Franchise Crossover
- While there are plenty of cross promotional events in pro wrestling that do not qualify, sometimes promotions will establish widespread, long term alliances that create a lasting continuity between them. NWA Showtime All-Star Wrestling and NWA Smokey Mountain doing a joint event, for instance, as the NWA members acknowledge the same champions and have a say in the NWA's general direction. Similar cases include the World Wrestling Network (EVOLVE, Full Impact Pro, etc), Global Pro Wrestling Alliance (Pro Wrestling ZERO1, Pro Wrestling Noah, etc) and World Wrestling League (CMLL, TNA, etc). -Crisis Crossover
- Promotions overseen by the Box y Lucha Libre Comision tend to keep luchadors, luchadoras and mini estrellas seperate from one another in competition. The most common place wrestlers from all three designations match up against each other under such circumstances is "lightweight" division, which predates the comision's acceptance of luchadoras and the mini estrella concept entirely. -Crisis Crossover
- Sometimes a promotion will have multiple branches, each with their own champions and angles. The International Wrestling Association was Puerto Rican but also had a popular Japanese branch and would bounce wrestlers between the two. Último Dragón's Toryumon was largely Mexican based but had a Japanese branch, which eventually became Dragon Gate and went on to set up branches in the USA and UK, who it would rotate talent through. -Crisis Crossover
- With the collapse of the territory system, many professional wrestling promotions have opened up or contracted smaller promotions to act as "farm leagues" to train new talent for their rosters. Since this often results in "developmental" losing its biggest money makers, the larger and often more popular promotion will loan some members of its own roster to help the smaller one keep crowds interested. WCW had the Heartland Wrestling Association for instance and gave national exposure to some of its stars, such as Shark Boy. Chikara meanwhile has its "Wrestling IS" affiliates, one of which (RESPECT) used to be a showcase for Ring of Honor and SHIMMER trainees. -Crisis Crossover
- Some wrestling promotions are considered "sisters", either due to an overwhelmingly shared roster, mutual involvement or ownership from the same behind the scenes figures, reliance on the same distributors and various other reasons, such as CZW and the Maven Bentley Association, where the owner of the latter acts as an authority figure in the former. -Crossover
- During its "brand extension era", WWE was divided into two different brands, one being Monday Night Raw and its B Show, Sunday Heat, the other being Thursday Night Smackdown and its B Show, Velocity. It was rare to see a wrestler affiliated with one brand have any interaction whatsoever with a wrestler from the other outside of The Royal Rumble and WrestleMania, making those two events bat family crossovers.
- Some promotions act as "parents" to others, such as when Dramatic Dream Team experimented with two "child" Joshi promotions, TJP and Union Pro, in the 2010s. A few wrestlers being used in minor DDT roles would be more important on the "child" shows and also interact with wrestlers otherwise not being booked by DDT. -Crisis Crossover
- Whether it be Mario Kart, Mario Party, or the plethora of sports titles based on the Super Mario Bros. series, you'll be sure they'll add some characters and settings from the Donkey Kong Country series. In fact, they were planning to have Donkey Kong himself participate in Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (DK's model was ultimately Dummied Out, but he made it into the sequel). They also threw in WarioWare in these titles, though its representation is not as pronounced. All we got basically was art of Wario from the WarioWare series on the walls of Mario Power Tennis's Wario Factory stage, and the Wario Bike in Mario Kart Wii — none of Wario's supporting cast from the WarioWare series has actually shown up in these games yet. With that said, Dr. Mario 64 features almost every character that appeared in Wario Land 3. This makes it one of the few times where Mario gets the chance to appear alongside characters that originated from the Wario games. -Crisis Crossover
- We could add Wii Sports Resort into the mix since Wuhu Island ends up having not one, but two courses in Mario Kart 7 (one of which features assets from both Wii Sports and Pilotwings), as well as a battle arena dedicated to a portion of the island. -Guest Fighter
- The Street Fighter Alpha prequel series formally introduced the Final Fight cast to Street Fighter with the addition of Guy and Sodom in the first entry, followed by Rolento in Alpha 2 and Cody in Alpha 3. There's even an entire stage in both Alpha 2 and Alpha 3 featuring the rest of the Final Fight cast cheering on the fight. The Street Fighter III series added another Final Fight alumni to the roster with the addition of Hugo (formerly known as Andore) in 2nd Impact and Poison appears as playable fighter in Street Fighter X Tekken and Ultra Street Fighter IV after having a passive role as Hugo's manager in III. Recently, Abigail has been added to the roster of Street Fighter V, with Lucia coming later afterwards. -Required Spinoff Crossover
- The game-within-a-game Professor Layton's London Life, packaged in some versions of Professor Layton and the Last Specter, is a miniature Bat Family Crossover - rather literally. The community of Little London is populated by sprite versions of Laytonverse characters from all of the games which had been released up to that point. -Intra-Franchise Crossover
- JoJo's Bizarre Adventure: Eyes of Heaven features an original storyline in which every JoJo from parts 1-8 team up to take down DIO after he succeeds in "obtaining Heaven" and gains nigh-unstoppable cross-timeline Reality Warper powers. -Intra-Franchise Crossover
- Downplayed by River City Girls, which involves characters from other Technos properties, specifically Double Dragon and The Combatribes, and integrates them into the game's universe as shopkeepers, enemies and bosses. -Intra-Franchise Crossover
- Yuki Yuna Is A Hero A Sparkling Flower is a mobile crossover where various Heroes from Yuusha De Aru come together to fight Vertexes. -Intra-Franchise Crossover
- The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Milestone Celebration Turtles Forever was a Turtles Family Crossover, teaming the 80's toon with the 00's toon AND having them meet the original comic Turtles. -Intra-Franchise Crossover, it’s even the Image Source for Fast Eddie’s sake!
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Did I do enough to prove it?
Edited by GeneralGigan817 on Jun 10th 2020 at 12:27:40 PM
That does look really bad and misuse filled.
But the thing is, if the description and usage are otherwise fine, and we can find enough legitimate examples through the wicks, then there is no need for the trope to be cut. Works like Spider-Geddon and Night of the Owls are two legit examples off the top of my head.
Of course wick checks are lengthy and complicated. But they are necessary in understanding how the trope is used on the wiki. Anyone can screw up a trope's main page, but the wick check shows the bigger picture. If you are confused, How to Do a Wick Check can point you in the right direction, but the burden of proving the trope is in such horrible condition we need to get rid of it is on you.
I personally believe this Trope should be limited to Marvel and DC examples only, as no other universes are vast enough to use this trope properly.
Edited by GeneralGigan817 on Jun 10th 2020 at 3:47:18 PM
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
Agree, is a very specific trope for Marvel and DC, I don't think there is any other shared universe that works like it.
To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Gentleman Troper!
I don't see the point of limiting a trope to two works (or series) only. Cut it.
Rhetorical, eh? ... Eight!
Crower ideas.
- Do nothing
- Cut
- Merge with Intra-Franchise Crossover
- Limit it to Marvel/DC examples
Yes, but are they using the Trope correctly?
Edited by GeneralGigan817 on Jun 11th 2020 at 11:34:31 AM
This is not the same thing as Intra-Franchise Crossover. That requires different adaptations crossing over with each other, not different characters in the same group.
Looking at the wicks (sigh), Jojos Bizarre Adventure, Big Finish Doctor Who Specials The Light At The End, and Professor Layton and the Last Specter, and Darkwing Duck list the trope with some context. These are not Marvel and DC properties.
It's not useful to limit a trope to only certain franchises just because it doesn't crop up with the same frequency elsewhere. Even assuming that all of the wicks up there are invalid examples (which I find unlikely), another franchise that does eventually manage to utilize this trope should have a place for it on the page.
In my opinion, breaking the page into 'DC Examples', 'Marvel Examples', and 'Other Examples' would have the same benefits as restricting the page to DC/Marvel examples only, but with none of the downsides. So if something like that is the best solution (and I'm not sure that it is), then I'd rather see the change made to the organization of the page than the definition of the trope itself.
EDIT: Looking at the trope, it seems the description is 'mini Crisis Crossover, but limited to only characters from one location', but the page image is Spider-Verse, which is 'mini Crisis Crossover, but only characters who are Spider-man'.
Maybe the actual reality of this trope is a crossover based on a location at all, but an Intra-Franchise Crossover or Crisis Crossover intentionally limited to a set of characters with something (such as location) in common?
EDIT 2: I'm now certain that there's something to 'mini Crisis Crossover, but limited to characters with attribute X'. If that's a trope, then this is just that but more specific.
EDIT 3: Yeah, I say the whole trope should be reworked to not focus specifically on location, but instead on some key idea that goes beyond fitting all the most popular characters in a franchise into one story as CrisisCrossovers are want to do. 'Every hero in one city', 'Every affiliate of a specific team', 'Every main character from the franchise', 'Every version or expy of a specific character'.
Edited by earzo700 on Jun 13th 2020 at 8:16:17 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Regardless of whether this is a duplicate or not, I don't like the idea of limiting tropes to specific companies. That's something that can lead to The Same, but More Specific.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 13th 2020 at 4:01:21 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Right. Just because a trope shows up predominantly in a specific company's works doesn't mean it's exclusive to those. Either it exists outside of those works as well, hasn't actually caught on yet as a trope, or just plain isn't a trope. But there's no such thing as a company-specific trope.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
In addition, a "company-specific trope" that isn't a duplicate might simply be Too Rare to Trope.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 13th 2020 at 8:44:19 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Redefining is the best way to handle this Trope, and we’ve only got a couple of hours to make a decision.
Edited by GeneralGigan817 on Jun 13th 2020 at 9:44:07 AM
The second Pretty Cure example of Bat Family Crossover is actually confirmed via the anime to be this. Beginning with Maho Girls Pretty Cure!, the series are shown to take place in the same universe by having the next series' lead Cure show up in the final episode. However, one post-Maho Girls series, HuGtto! Pretty Cure, also had crossover episodes with previous Cures, but at least one instance was explained by Hugtan warping the characters with her magic, meaning that everything pre-Go! Princess Pretty Cure took place in different universes. In one of the aformentioned episodes of Hugtto, Hana specifically mentions the final episode of Kira Kira Pretty Cure A La Mode, where she made a cameo.
Edited by mimitchi33 on Jun 13th 2020 at 7:57:30 AM
I think we can ask for the clock to be reset, right?
Start the crowner, those options look good.
I'd like to apologize for all this.
The crowner options discount my stance, which is that this seems like a valid concept that is being misused.
OP, I gotta say, if you had done a wick check to begin with and shown results to this end, I would have an easier time agreeing with you that this is a cut candidate. The burden of proof should not be on me to see if all non-Marvel/DC works are using this trope properly. And even if a trope is predominantly used by Marvel and DC, that doesn't mean it's not a trope.
- Franchise.Jojos Bizarre Adventure: ZCE
- Recap.Big Finish Doctor Who Specials The Light At The End: " involving Tom Baker, Peter Davison, Colin Baker, Sylvester Mc Coy and Paul Mc Gann as their respective Doctors alongside the Master and the first three Doctors in a Batfamily Crossover." For context, the work runs on The Nth Doctor. These are actors who played some of the Doctors, crossing over with each other but not involving the greater Doctor Who universe. Reads as correct to me.
- VideoGame.Professor Layton And The Last Specter" This is the only format in which it's possible to see characters from all of the PL games which existed at the time, and watch them interact with each other too. For instance, the museum curator (from Last Specter) becomes friends with Katia Anderson (from Diabolical Box), and Ingrid (from Curious Village) rents a room to Dr. Stahngun (from Unwound Future). This reads as incorrect use to me; what's that trope about characters who appear in multiple use of The 'Verse?
- WesternAnimation.Darkwing Duck: "a Bat Family Crisis Crossover with the Duck Tales comic where Scrooge Mc Duck and Darkwing Duck..." I think this is using 'Bat Family' in that Scrooge and Darkwing are both ducks within the greater Disney comics 'verse, while 'Crisis Crossover' in that they are battling a crisis. I read this as correct.
Honestly, this reads like a trope to me. If that's not what BFC is currently, it at least reads like a valid retool option (but without Intra-Franchise Crossover, for reasons I have pointed out). But we need a freaking wick check.
Weren’t the OP Es good enough?
The clocks up. It might be too late.
Edited by GeneralGigan817 on Jun 15th 2020 at 1:03:19 PM
For duplicate trope threads, I usually don't think so. Anyone can mess up the on-page examples. The wick check provides a truer picture of how the trope is used in the wiki.
For context, this thread has honestly made me very touchy about 'dupe tropes' that try to produce action with no wick checks. The OP claimed that all three tropes were redundant, but when three tropers including me actually did the legwork, we found that two of the tropes were fine and only one was having problems. See the issue?
Edited by Synchronicity on Jun 15th 2020 at 8:29:47 AM
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
Yeah, this is the third "duplicate trope" thread I've seen that didn't back up the claims made. I'm also still completely convinced that the proposed options make no sense and are either too restrictive or won't fix any of the "problems" as you cite them.
Laconics, on page examples, titles even, none of those are a good measure for determining how a trope is actually being used.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
It finally happened, please remember that this is my first proper Wick Check before you comment on how barebones it is.
Very Spooky
Not to be harsh, but that's very barebones. I understand that it's your first wick check, but we'll be unable to determine anything from six wicks.
At closer inspection, I’ve come to the conclusion that nearly all examples of this Trope fall under either Crisis Crossover or Intra-Franchise Crossover
Bat Family Crossover‘s laconic: A crossover that only affects characters living in their own part of The 'Verse.
This laconic is so specific that The DCU and the Marvel Universe are the only franchises that can do this trope “properly”.
Now for it’s sister tropes.
Crisis Crossover’s laconic: A crossover that involves all the characters and locations in The 'Verse in a single storyline.
First paragraph of Intra-Franchise Crossover: Sometimes when a series is rebooted or adapted to another medium, the different iterations of the franchise will crossover with each other. This is much more likely to happen in series that are fantasy or sci-fi bent or if the successor doesn't have the same cast.