This is a thread for checking up on pages for works that have not been released yet, to make sure that they are not straying into rampant speculation or posting crazy behind the scenes spoilers. You can bring both individual examples or entire pages to attention here.
In extreme cases, any page can be locked, but hopefully that won't be necessary.
(As these pages often are hit with zero-context examples and shoehorning as well, all four - speculation, spoilers, ZCEs, and shoehorning may get addressed simultaneously.)
The policy governing this effort is Creating A Work Page For An Unreleased Work. Cleanup is being tracked using the Unreleased Works sandbox.
All pages for unreleased works should include a %% comment at the top of the page, confirming the policy and linking to this thread and the Administrivia page. It doesn't have to be exactly the same as the example provided here, but this provides a template to work with.
%% Speculative troping is not allowed on TV Tropes.
%%
%% We trope what DOES happen in works, not what MIGHT happen or is LIKELY to happen.
%%
%% For unreleased works where all we have to go on is advertising and other supplemental materials, we have some detailed guidelines, which can be found at Administrivia/CreatingAWorkPageForAnUnreleasedWork.
%%
%% NOTE - these rules also mean that unreleased works should only have one page image, and that image should NOT be changed again until the work is released.
%%
%% If you have questions, please consult the Unreleased Work Speculation Cleanup thread at https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15514631230A64268600
%%
%% Thank you.
%%
Edited by Mrph1 on Feb 10th 2024 at 8:16:52 PM
This should really help us all going forward. Thank you! And, um, sorry for my behavior.
I am a bit curious about this part, though:
Does this apply to works with release periods? Obviously things like "sometime in the year 2020" would be just as bad as "release date unknown", but what about "in the Fall" or "sometime in June"? If a short period of release is specified, but not the exact date itself, could it still be given a page if enough information is available to trope?
Jawbreakers on sale for 99¢
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I'm open to suggestions, so long as they are clearly representing my further explanations upthread.
I can see why that would have value, but for now we would like to stick to a set date. It may be re-discussed in the future if we prove to have enough unreleased works where the material was both passably tropeable and had a slightly broader date range (like September 2020).
ETA: Just from experience, it's easier to loosen strict rules, then it is to tighten after the fact.
Edited by nombretomado on Jun 5th 2019 at 7:15:42 AM
Addressing Rallybot's point:
- The other obvious question left unanswered is whether the line for a fact about the work or a trope being in the work (as opposed to only the trailers) is "100% confirmed, i.e. the work is released", which appears to be High Crate's, etc. side, or "beyond a reasonable doubt", which is mine and bwburke's.This difference actually matters, as my position would allow things such as art style and actors to be considered factual instead of speculation. Yes, these things can change, but the chance of it happening is vanishingly unlikely.
It seems to me that the spirit of the policy is that statements about the final work can only be made once the work is released. There is no "beyond a reasonable doubt"; before the work is released, doubt is reasonable. After the work is released, it is not.
A particular actor or art style could still be cited as appearing in trailers, but not in the final work, as we cannot be sure that they will not change before the final work is released.
Does that assessment sound accurate?
Final Fantasy VII Remake doesn't even have a range set for release (or even a confirmation that it's releasing under that name,) but there's plenty in its trailers that can be troped.
There's a line to set, as we don't want to be spending time on statements such as "Pokémon Sword and Shield are set in the Galar region and will be released on the Nintendo Switch" as those are true beyond any reasonable doubt. As written, because the only tropeable sources of that information are trailers and the official website, it could be argued to be speculation. (I doubt anyone would try to argue that, but I'm taking a devil's advocate position here.)
We have both made our arguments about this point ad nauseum. Now is not the time for making further arguments. I am asking Nombretomado whether my understanding of the policy is correct.
Here is an example of the kind of write-up I understand to be under question:
- Thick-Line Animation: The trailer shows this style of animation for only two characters, in contrast the rest of the cast appearing in more traditionally naturalistic styles.
vs.
- Thick-Line Animation: The work shows this style of animation for two characters in particular.
Is the question which phrasing would be correct, pre-official release?
In a case such as this, use the first, I'm not arguing that. When we get to the point of multiple trailers with the same art style, we can consider removing it.
Let's take Rallybot's example:
- Pokémon Sword and Shield are set in the Galar region and will be released on the Nintendo Switch.
I would render that something more like:
- The announcement trailer for Pokémon Sword and Shield shows off the Galar region and advertises a release on the Nintendo Switch.
The former assumes that the information in the trailer will definitely apply to the final work. The latter will still be correct even if it turns out that the game spans more than one region or gets pushed onto a different console, because it's not saying anything about the final work. It's just describing what happened in the trailer.
Edited by HighCrate on Jun 5th 2019 at 7:34:49 AM
The trial with this is that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is a more malleable discussion point than "does it show up in a trailer, or does it show up in a website?"
Unfortunately, I have to tell you that a plurality of arguments on the interpretation of "reasonable doubt" has tipped our hand to the stricter definition.
Changed the verbiage from this:
- In covering pre-release works, we are only troping things presumed to be part of the finalized product and its advertising as advertising.Things presumed to be part of the finalized product includes trailers, teasers, gameplay footage, and text excerpts.
to this:
- In covering pre-release works, we are only troping things that purport to represent the work itself, and its advertising solely as advertising.Things that purport to represent the work itself includes trailers, teasers, gameplay footage, and text excerpts. They are representing the work, instead of describing.
Hopefully this is clearer language.
Edited by nombretomado on Jun 5th 2019 at 8:12:39 AM
NaNo 4328 / 50,000
The Speculative Troping policy pretty much says that being 99.9999% confirmed is not sufficient evidence for a trope. I consider 90% to be "beyond a reasonable doubt". This is why my interpretation seems so strict.
Edited by crazysamaritan on Jun 5th 2019 at 11:15:56 AM
Link to TRS threads in project mode here.
Works for me. Thank you! ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
Just to confirm, although this may seem obvious: This policy applies for pages other than the page for the work and trope in question, e.g. Creator pages (with regards to actors being cast in a new work), right? (Just making sure we're all on the same page.)
Correct.
Moving along for the moment, Sandbox.Pokemon Sword And Shield is looking good to me. There are no doubt entries that could be uncommented if edited with citations / context, but what's there now is better than what's on the (locked) live page.
Does anyone have changes they want to make before it's submitted to the Locked Pages thread?
Also, now that things have settled down a little more, I'm going to take another crack at cleaning Characters.Pokemon Generation VIII Families before submitting it for a page lock.
Finally, a standard commented-out header for upcoming works (similar to what the ZCE cleanup thread uses for pages that have been cleaned of ZCEs) would be helpful to get people used to the new policy. I suggest something like:
We trope what DOES happen in works, not what MIGHT or is LIKELY to happen.
For unreleased works where all we have to go on is advertising and other supplemental materials, we have some detailed guidelines, which can be found at Creating a Work Page for an Upcoming Work.
If you have questions, please consult the Unreleased Work Speculation Cleanup thread at https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15514631230A64268600
Thank you.
How does that look?
Edited by HighCrate on Jun 6th 2019 at 7:55:01 AM
Hold on before you submit the characters page to the lock thread, as I still need to add the images.
Edited my post in the Locked Pages thread asking to hold off until you've got the pictures in.
Veteran Editor IV
If you have to add images, use the ones I plan to submit to Sandbox.Pokemon Character Page Images 2, for a consistent size and high quality. All other subpages of Characters.Pokemon will eventually have their images replaced from 3DS models to official art as well. Give me a few weeks for the other generations, please.
Edited by Piterpicher on Jun 6th 2019 at 2:29:39 PM
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
Since we've cut Series.New Warriors 2018, do we need to keep Characters.MCU New Warriors? 
Good catch; I must've overlooked that. Let's cutlist it.
Veteran Editor IV
Alright, I've added all the Gen VIII pics myself, updated to a consistent size and no outlines. I should have probably worded my previous post better, but anyway, we're done, let's get the page locked!
Edited by Piterpicher on Jun 6th 2019 at 2:50:02 PM
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
Compiling a list of pages listed on Sandbox.Future Works that do not appear to meet the criteria of "a confirmed release date, an announced name, and official advertising":
- Works listed under "lacks any produced material":
- Anime:
- Film:
- TV:
- Video Games:
- Atomic Heart
- Bayonetta 3
- Beyond Good & Evil 2
- Biomutant
- The Black Masses
- Blasphemous
- Creature in the Well
- The Church in the Darkness
- Cyberpunk 2077
- Darkborn
- Digimon Survive
- Doom Eternal
- Final Fantasy VII Remake
- Firmament
- Freedom Planet 2
- Ghost of Tsushima
- Ghost Recon Breakpoint
- Hardcore Mecha
- Hollow Knight: Silksong
- Hunt the Night
- Hytale
- Indivisible
- Kyle & Lucy: Wonderworld
- The Last of Us Part II
- The Legend of el Lobodestroyo Vs. la Liga de los Villanos
- Luigi's Mansion 3
- Love Live! School Idol Festival ALL STARS
- Mega Man Shattered Diamond
- No Straight Roads
- Oddworld: Soulstorm
- Ori and the Will of the Wisps
- The Outer Worlds
- Persona 5 Scramble
- Phantom: Covert Ops
- Pokémon Masters
- Psychonauts 2
- Rides With Strangers
- Shin Megami Tensei V
- Shin Sakura Wars
- The Sinking City
- Skull & Bones
- Super Robot Wars DD
- Town
- Twisted Wonderland
- Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2
- Wolfenstein: Youngblood
- World of Horror
- WRATH: Aeon of Ruin
- Yandere Simulator
- Yo-kai Watch 4
- Zera: Myths Awaken
- Visual Novels:
- Western Animation:
Now, according to a strict reading of the rules, all of the above should be cutlisted. However, that's a lot of material to wipe out at a stroke. Additionally, I notice that the "announced release date" rule affects video games and TV series a lot more heavily than films. Films often get release dates announced years in advance, whereas non-AAA video games and TV series often don't get them announced until weeks or even days before release, and sometimes just get unceremoniously released with no release date announcement whatsoever.
I propose an experiment. Let's declare that the above-listed pages are "grandfathered in" for now. We'll go through them page-by-page and give them a thorough cleaning, commenting-out Zero Context Examples and Speculative Troping according to the new guidelines.
After cleaning, we'll give each page a week or two to see what the troper base does. If they persist in adding and re-adding Speculative Troping and other bad entries, those pages will be cutlisted. Any page that doesn't have three or more valid examples after a week or two post-cleaning will be cutlisted. Any page that does have three or more valid examples after a week or two post-cleaning and hasn't caused any other problems will remain "grandfathered in."
If enough pages remain "grandfathered in," that will be a pretty good sign that we should consider relaxing the rules about what's allowed to have a page.
Does that sound fair?
Edited by HighCrate on Jun 6th 2019 at 7:58:17 AM
I'm fine with it.
That's fine. Like I said, it's easier to relax a rule than tighten it, and a trial period should be an effective way to check for give.
Edited by nombretomado on Jun 6th 2019 at 7:38:00 AM
Thank you for that clarification. If I may suggest, a different descriptor than "things presumed to be part of the finalized product" could help prevent people from getting the wrong impression.
Edited by HighCrate on Jun 5th 2019 at 7:08:57 AM