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Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#1: Mar 17th 2020 at 1:32:19 PM

Latino Is Brown first came to my attention when I noticed how many aversions were on the page. As this is clearly not an Omnipresent Trope, I wondered why so many aversions would coexist alongside 'straight' examples — specifically, what is being averted? Hence this Trope Talk query. I did a wick check (below) and figured it was worth bringing to TRS vs starting a cleanup because I find the scope of the trope confusing.

I think the first post of that Trope Talk thread sums it up:

The description and laconic of Latino Is Brown are about the belief that all Latinos have olive skin and dark hair, and a perhaps too-long segment about the varying racial makeup of Latin America. Okay, fair enough. But the page has its straight examples (characters who look like that) and a ton of aversions for characters and actors who don't fit this Phenotype Stereotype. Should those examples be on there? If yes, what is the trope: that a work portrays all Latinos in it as olive-skinned and dark-haired (or that a character expresses this belief In-Universe, regardless of the appearance of Latino characters) or that a work challenges this perception by having white/black/ginger/blue-eyed etc. Latinos who don't fit this stereotype?

When sorting examples, I used five criteria:

  • All Latinos in the work have brown skin and possibly black hair, or the expressed belief that all Latinos do. This includes cases where characters challenge this perception, because the perception is still expressed regardless of what Latinos in the work look like.
  • A Latino in the work has brown skin and possibly dark hair to distinguish him from non-Latino characters. Phenotype Stereotype, basically.
  • A Latino in the work "averts" this, ie. does not have brown skin and dark hair.
  • Latinos in the work are portrayed with a variety of skin tones, as in real life, but the perception of Latinos all having the same brown skin and dark hair is not brought up.
  • Unclear context (self-explanatory)

Here is a selection of examples from the page of each:

    Latino is Brown On-Page Examples 

Examples of "All Latinos are tanned" or the belief thereof

  • In America Chavez's solo series, America, a large portion of the cast consists of Latinas, and America's backstory shows her going through various places in Central and South America. Every one of these people are brown-skinned.
  • Played straight in Coco, where all of the living characters have dark skin.note  Justified, as the film takes place in the Mexican state of Oaxaca, where the vast majority of residents have at least some amount of Native ancestry, and it's implied that the Rivera family may be one of those families, as many female members wear traditional clothing.
  • In The Incredible Hulk, there's a scene where General Ross finds out that Bruce Banner is working at a soda factory in Rio de Janeiro, and advises his subordinates to be on the lookout for a white man employed there. According to census data, white Brazilians make up about 51 percent of the city's population in real life.
  • Explicitly averted in Moonlight (2016) with Juan, a black Cuban played by Mahershala Ali. There's even a scene where he acknowledges this perception by saying Americans often don't think Latinos can be black.
  • Taina as well, Taina's family are brown and black-haired. However, Maritza (the only other Hispanic regular) has obvious brown hair, but still has a darker skin tone.
  • Todd in the Shadows once mentioned that Pitbull (full name Armando Christian Peréz), who's Cuban American, does not look Hispanic at all and just looks white. As mentioned above, most Cuban Americans in the United States are of unmixed Spanish descent and look exactly like him in terms of complexion.

Examples of "A Latino fits the Phenotype Stereotype":

Examples of "A Latino does not fit the Phenotype Stereotype"

  • Saint Seiya:
    • Averted by Musca Dio, who is very pale and has red (almost bordering on maroon) hair despite being from Mexico.
    • Also averted with Albiore, at least in the anime. While his racial background is quite ambiguous in the manga due to lack of colored illustrations, in the anime he's a handsome, blue-eyed Argentinian.
    • Also averted with Eo of Scylla, who is another Latin-American character with reddish-pinkish hair and fair skin.
    • Another addition to the list is Gold Saint Taurus Aldebaran, who is from Brazil. The anime plays the trope straight but in the original manga he's blond and blue-eyed.
  • Notably averted with Beatriz Dacosta, Fire from the Justice League International, who is Brazilian and white.
  • Victoria averts this with its Mexican female lead, Maria de Alva, who hails from an old aristocratic Spanish family and is purely European by blood and in appearance. However, this is also held as sufficiently uncommon for the American protagonists to consider it worth commenting on.
  • Averted in Once Upon a Time, to the point where creators had to confirm that Regina, like her actress, is Latina. Her father is played by an actor with darker skin than her, and she has a light-skinned mother to imply she's mixed race.

Examples of "Latinos within the work have varying skintones"

  • Averted in Blue Beetle—although Jaime and many other characters fit this trope, one of his best friends, Brenda, is a light-skinned redhead. The family reunion issue also shows that Jaime has a blonde aunt.
  • Averted in Jonathan Kellerman's Alex Delaware novel When The Bow Breaks, where one of the murder victims and her brothers are described as looking Hispanic while also having naturally blond hair, and Alex speculates that they probably had a Nordic ancestor somewhere in their family tree. Their mother and a friend of the family look much more stereotypically Mexican.
  • The Brothers García - the first English-speaking sitcom to focus on a Latino family - plays with this trope. The titular Garcia family are black-haired and light brown skinned, though the daughter Lorenna is slightly darker than everyone else. Then again, they are in San Antonio, where over half the population is Hispanic. Other Latino characters of varying skin tones appear in the series - including Sandy's daughter Samantha, who is fair skinned and blonde haired.

Examples of changes to character or actor design involving the phenotype (Brownface, Race Lift etc) — these are all in the realm of trivia and probably shouldn't be on the page

  • Averted in Big Hero 6 with Honey Lemon, who is Latina by Word of God. She's also a light-skinned blonde (whose in-film model leans towards a lightly Dark Skinned Blonde). She's voiced by Hispanic actress Genesis Rodriguez, who also made sure to have Honey pronounce some words to imply her Latin heritage - for example, pronouncing 'Hiro' by rolling the "r". Various prototypical designs were dark skinned and raven haired but the artists opted otherwise, most likely to differentiate her from dark-haired GoGo.
  • While still blonde, Elsa Pataky (Spanish actress of Romanian-Hungarian descent on her mother's side) is more tanned and has her hair darker than usual in her first Hollywood role, the passenger Maria in Snakes on a Plane. This is completely avoided in her later role as Brazilian police officer Elena Neves in the The Fast and the Furious franchise.
  • As mentioned in the Comic Books section, the Marvel superhero Sunspot is Afro-Brazilian. Despite this, his two film appearances (X-Men: Days of Future Past and The New Mutants) have had him played by non-black actors who fit the more typical view Americans have of what a "Latino" looks like.

And here is the wick check:

    Latino is Brown Wick Check 

All Latinos in the setting have have brown skin, which usually goes hand in hand with dark hair. Included here is the expressed belief that all Latinos look like this, whether or not it is true for the work.

  1. Main.Five Token Band: Sink Hole with "stereotypically brown Hispanic"
  2. Main.Misplaced Accent: white Latino will have "difficulty physically passing for Mexican"
  3. Main.People Of Hair Color: Explains this trope (dark hair)
  4. Characters.The Road To El Dorado: Sink Hole; generalization of "or what Westerners generally think of "Latinos" as yet."
  5. Literature.Save The Pearls: The author [portrays] all Latinos as one race, presumably this one
  6. Series.Orange Is The New Black: "Looking Latino" is discussed, and it is explained that Latinos are multiracial
  7. VisualNovel.Mother Of The Year: Discussed with a white-passing Mexican-American
  8. WesternAnimation.Pinkalicious And Peterrific: "Rafael, Frida, Mayor Martinez, and Coach Mario all have brown skin."

A Latino (or a character implied to be/of an ethnicity equivalent to Latinos) has this Phenotype Stereotype to distinguish him from non-Latino characters

  1. Main.Space Jews: One character has brown feathers
  2. Main.Spicy Latina: Used to describe a presumably Latina character.
  3. Characters.Big Hero 6 Allies: Example says she is heavily implied to be Latina, while the character image has her with brown skin and dark hair.
  4. Characters.Black Lagoon The Lovelace Household: "...downplayed... she does have a more notable tan"
  5. Characters.Craig Of The Creek: "dark skin...fluent Spanish." Image also shows character fits this phenotype and has a Spanish name.
  6. Characters.Justice League Action: "implied to be a Latina because of her tanned skin"
  7. Characters.Law And Order Special Victims Unit: A mixed Latino is kind of tan, but his family is dark.
  8. Characters.Max Steel 2013: "Alex has a light shade of brown [sic] and black hair." (Presumably they meant brown skin.)
  9. Characters.Pacific Rim: A mixed Latino is fair in the movie itself, but drawn as tan in the tie-in comic compared to white characters.
  10. Characters.Ready Jet Go: "She's Latina and she has brown skin"
  11. Characters.Tekken 6: A Spanish Spexico character has brown skin and dark hair, unlike the other Europeans
  12. Characters.The Loud House Kids: "Name's Francisco, has brown skin and raven hair."
  13. Characters.SNK Heroines Tag Team Frenzy: The only Latina has dark skin
  14. Characters.Yuri On Ice Other Ice Skaters: Tan Mexican-American
  15. Characters.Wild Kratts: Latina with brown skin
  16. Creator.Zoe Saldana: Afro-Latina and has dark skin, but the example notes that she usually plays black women and not Latinas.
  17. Film.Knives Out: Marta (who is definitely Latina but no one knows from where) is tan and dark-haired.
  18. Wrestling.Bella Twins: Tan Italian-Mexican (writeup itself explains that they are presented as the former rather than the latter because they're fairer).
  19. Wrestling.Rosa Mendes: Darker-skinned Latina gets her heritage played up

Specific character/actor aversions: Latinos who do not fit this Phenotype Stereotype, without the In-Universe belief that they do

  1. Characters.How To Get Away With Murder: Half-white, half-Latina and has fair skin
  2. Characters.Killer Instinct: Vampire Latina with pale skin
  3. Characters.Rick And Morty The Smith Sanchez Family: Presumably Latina woman is fair. Character image also shows she is blonde.
  4. Characters.Sakura Wars Star Division: "her profile pic shows she's light skinned with very light brown hair."
  5. Characters.Troll Hunters The Trollhunters: Pale-skinned implied Mexican
  6. Creator.Cameron Diaz: Blonde and blue-eyed. But the example notes that she usually plays white women and not Latinas, possibly due to this belief.
  7. Film.Machete Kills: Latina played by the fair-skinned, blonde, green-eyed Amber Heard (but the example notes that looking like this may be one hint that she's a fraud)
  8. Film.Starship Troopers: Fair-skinned Argentinian, which is accurate to real life
  9. Manga.A Silent Voice: Portrays black Brazilians

Setting or cast-wide aversions/zigzags/mixed examples: Some Latino characters look like that, some don't, often compared to the real-life diversity of Latinos

  1. Anime.El Cazador De La Bruja (lacks context - "Played straight with Margarita. Averted with Antonio.") but I got the gist. The example writeup on the page itself also explains more. "Played straight with the raven haired, brown-eyed, tan olive skinned Margarita- yet averted with her husband Antonio, who has blond hair, blue eyes, and very fair skin."
  2. Characters.Inazuma Eleven Supporting Characters: "He's a dark-skinned Argentinian. Averted by his teammates, most of them being fair-skinned." (This show is about soccer so his teammates are presumably also Argentinian)
  3. ComicBook.A Peoples History Of The American Empire: "most unnamed Latino characters are, but all of the Latin American historical figures are portrayed correctly as whatever ethnicity / race they were"
  4. Puerto Rico Strong: " Averted. Puerto Ricans are portrayed multiracially"
  5. Barcelona: Fair skinned and blonde Spaniards
  6. Literature.Decades Of Darkness: Fair-skinned upper classes of Latin America vs. dark skinned indio and mestizo.
  7. Recap.Charmed S 5 E 6 The Eyes Have It: "Ava is dark skinned, but her aunt Lydia is fair-skinned too."
  8. Series.Euphoria: One Latina "fits the stereotypical look", the other is fair
  9. Series.Switched At Birth: Most look like this, the main Latina daughter doesn't
  10. WesternAnimation.Elena Of Avalor: "Avalor is modeled on Latin cultures and is very diverse, with the average crowd shot showing skin tones ranging from very light to very dark"

Lacking context/misuse

  1. Characters.Elvis Duran Morning Show: ZCE, Spanish surname but no indication of appearance
  2. Characters.Survivor Cook Islands
  3. Manga.Resident Evil Heavenly Island: "Averted with Inez, her name suggests she is Portuguese, but she is Caucasian." Unclear if she's actually Portuguese or just has a Latin-ish name.
  4. Fillmore Next Stop Armageddon: "Oscar Guiererro is likely Latino, if his surname is anything to go by." Does not say anything about what Oscar looks like
  5. Good Guy Comic: " Guy is depicted as having tan skin in colored artwork. Justified by the fact that this comic is autobiographical and creator may very well look like this." But neither the example nor the page confirm or imply that Guy is Latino, although the author's name is Brian Martinez.

Results:

  • All Latinos have tan skin, or the expressed belief thereof: 8/51 (15.7%)
  • A Latino character fits the Phenotype Stereotype: 19/51 (37.3%)
  • A Latino character does not fit the Phenotype Stereotype: 9/51 (17.6%)
  • Latinos within the work have a variety of skintones: 10/51 (19.6%)
  • Lacking context: 5/51 (9.8%)

Note: Some examples conflate "Latino" (roots in Latin America) and "Hispanic" (includes those with roots in Iberia — Spanish and Portugal). Because the delineation in real life can be fuzzy and many works conflate them anyway, for the purposes of this wick check I just treated them as similar (ie. did not count Spanish/Portuguese characters as misuse) but I did note if a character was Spanish.

What to do with the aversions, then? I think that aversions and zigzags (where single characters don't look "Latino" and when Latinos within the work are portrayed as multiracial), should at least be removed per Averted Trope, unless the stereotypical Latino "look" is brought up in reference to them (eg. "You don't look like you're from Mexico" or like in One Day at a Time (2017) where a fair-skinned Latina despairs when she realizes she's white-passing and her family is not).

What to do with references to the out-of-universe belief that all Latinos look like this, like "Ben Affleck doesn't look Latino enough to play one although he darkened his hair" or "Cameron Diaz usually plays white women as a result of this"? Although it affects casting or character design, it is certainly not what we would consider a trope. I think these examples should be removed unless the creators themselves discuss it.

In addition, it seems the most common use of the trope is "Latino characters have the olive brown skin/dark hair Phenotype Stereotype, or this is discussed". However, the trope is not a subtrope of Phenotype Stereotype: just "related". I think that "The work's token Latinos have dark skin and black hair" is misuse and should be under Phenotype Stereotype, and this trope's examples should be cleaned to be about the belief, and its description made clear.

Note that the page has 248 wicks, not a particularly huge number.

But that's just me. Thoughts?

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 17th 2020 at 3:35:57 AM

Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#2: Mar 18th 2020 at 8:50:53 PM

Opened.

Looking at it, I wonder if it can be saved at all...

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#3: Mar 18th 2020 at 8:56:16 PM

My idea is to treat this like All Jews Are Ashkenazi or All Muslims Are Arab: cover examples where a work of fiction strongly implies that this is the case or the idea is brought up in-universe.

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#4: Mar 18th 2020 at 8:59:49 PM

[up] Issue is, if the wick check is representative, that's not a whole lot of usable examples to sort into the new definition. (15% of 248 is only 37)

I wouldn't be opposed to this if we can make it work, but if not, we need a second plan.

Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 18th 2020 at 12:00:50 PM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#5: Mar 18th 2020 at 9:08:37 PM

To me, the only tropeworthy thing about this is the Phenotype Stereotype that all Latinos are dark-skinned (I would consider 1 and 2 in the wick check to fall under this). And if that's redundant with Phenotype Stereotype, then I don't see anything worth saving.

Edited by naturalironist on Mar 18th 2020 at 12:12:26 PM

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#6: Mar 18th 2020 at 10:53:19 PM

I can support a pivot to All Latinos Are Brown, but the All X are Y tropes have a tendency to decay into “an X that is Y” — so [up], I’d consider 1 to be examples and 2 to be decay. The work has to explicitly reference the belief or it has to be very present in the work (like All Men Are Perverts).

Cutting and starting from scratch may be the best way to do that though.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 18th 2020 at 1:01:21 PM

naturalironist from The Information Superhighway Since: Jul, 2016 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#7: Mar 18th 2020 at 11:14:56 PM

If there's a sterotype about X, and the only member of X in that work fits the stereotype, I would consider that an example of the stereotype in action, and I think that applies here. When a person/character is tokenized, they're expected to represent their entire group. So I don't think #2 is problematic instance of Trope Decay.

The big problems I see with the trope are the meaningless aversions for a non-omnipresent trope, and the fact that the underlying concept is just Phenotype Stereotype.

"It's just a show; I should really just relax"
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#8: Mar 18th 2020 at 11:41:42 PM

[up] However, that only applies to tokens, who are in the story specifically because of their minority status. If there's a character who just so happens to be a brown skinned latino, that's not the same thing.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#9: Mar 19th 2020 at 7:52:30 AM

I personally have never seen tokens as supposed to represent their entire group — Token Minority only mentions it as a possibility. How does one draw the line between "the single Latino character has brown skin" and "this single Latino character with brown skin represents all Latinos"?

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#10: Mar 19th 2020 at 10:56:28 AM

I personally see it less as "the token represents the rest of their group" but more "if they specifically chose their token latino character to have brown skin, that's what they consider obviously latino" because obviously a token should be easy to identify if possible.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
TheMountainKing Since: Jul, 2016
#11: Mar 19th 2020 at 1:11:46 PM

Listing any Latino character who happens to have brown skin, even if they're the only Latino in the work, strikes me as Chairs.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#12: Mar 20th 2020 at 6:47:29 AM

All Latinos Are Mestizo? To imply a homogeneous ethnic and cultural background as well?

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 20th 2020 at 9:44:24 AM

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#13: Mar 20th 2020 at 1:08:46 PM

[up][up] FTR, that's why I keep specifying "token", as someone being a Token is much different than just being the only minority in a work by coincidence; if nothing is made of the character's race, they're not a token and shouldn't qualify for this trope. But if their race is important to the story and they're the only latino character in the work, them having brown skin is more important as an identifier.

[up] I like it.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#14: Mar 21st 2020 at 5:44:03 AM

Hm. Maybe something like Identical-Looking Asians might be a better template? That requires In-Universe expression, but there’s not a whole lot of examples to move over.

Edited by Synchronicity on Mar 21st 2020 at 7:44:10 AM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Florien The They who said it from statistically, slightly right behind you. Since: Aug, 2019
The They who said it
#16: Mar 22nd 2020 at 1:23:56 AM

[up] Agreed. that is a good rename option.

eroock Since: Sep, 2012
#17: Mar 22nd 2020 at 12:18:47 PM

I have no idea what Mestizo means.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#18: Mar 22nd 2020 at 12:47:37 PM

[up]Literally, "mixed-race", specifically, coming from mixed Hispanic and Indigenous American heritage, now colloquially used for 'mainstream' Latino populations. The Phenotype Stereotype for it is the aforementioned brown skin and black hair.

I'm not outright suggesting a rename to All Latinos Are Mestizo, rather that as a direction for this trope to go in — they all have the same ethnic and cultural background. They look mestizo, have a Hispanic name, are probably Christian, etc. Unless Latin Land itself can cover this? But that's a setting, while this is for characters...

(FWIW, I didn't know what "Ashkenazi" was specifically before reading All Jews Are Ashkenazi, but I thought it was clear that it was a subset of Jews. Assuming the same here.)

WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#19: Mar 31st 2020 at 3:23:16 PM

Sounds reasonable to me.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#20: Apr 2nd 2020 at 7:47:32 AM

Seeing two options from discussion:

  • Cut, move applicable examples to Phenotype Stereotype
  • Retool to "all Latinos have the same racial and cultural background"

These might not be mutually exclusive, if we start the retooled trope from scratch and move single-character examples to Phenotype Stereotype. IMO, token minority examples fit better there, analogous to how a Token White or a But Not Too Foreign character in an Asian setting would have blonde hair and blue eyes 80% of the time.

Edited by Synchronicity on Apr 2nd 2020 at 9:50:18 AM

FernandoLemon Nobody Here from Argentina (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: In season
#21: Apr 2nd 2020 at 8:06:38 AM

[up][up][up] If I can nitpick on this, the correct term would be "Mestizos", not "Mestizo", due to the number agreement rule.

Edited by FernandoLemon on Apr 2nd 2020 at 12:10:36 PM

I'd like to apologize for all this.
Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#22: Apr 2nd 2020 at 9:30:36 AM

[up]Sure, I grew up using mestizo as descriptive so my instinct was to use the singular. Mestizos works as well.

AmourMitts Since: Jan, 2016
#23: Apr 4th 2020 at 2:30:37 PM

[up][up][up] I prefer the latter option of retooling this trope.

Synchronicity (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#24: Apr 5th 2020 at 9:49:00 AM

It's been a couple of weeks since the thread was opened, so I made a Page Action crowner.

Noting that I put "Move single character examples to Phenotype Stereotype" as a separate option from retooling or keeping as-is because there was discussion on what to do with Token Minority examples.

I'm not sure if we should have an option to address all the aversions on the page.

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#25: Apr 6th 2020 at 11:23:20 PM

[up]I looked at some of the aversions and the ones I saw all look like "non-Mestizo Latinos exist". I also spotted a "played straight and subverted" example.

I'm starting to lean more toward merging with Phenotype Stereotype.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Apr 6th 2020 at 1:27:44 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.

PageAction: LatinoIsBrown
5th Apr '20 9:38:21 AM

Crown Description:

What would be the best way to fix the page?

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