I'm going to work on shortening FranchiseOriginalSin.Star Wars.
Edit: It turns out there are a lot of examples here, so I'll wait to discuss the page in this thread.
Edited by EarthboundFan on Mar 12th 2020 at 4:31:26 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Oof, I wish you luck when you tackle that! Up for helping on the Sandbox.The Rise Of Skywalker YMMV stuff I noted on Sandbox.Star Wars Cleanup?
I've been looking through some other Franchise Original Sin examples, and they seem to be a lot shorter than FranchiseOriginalSin.Star Wars. The examples there also have issues with arguing against themselves a lot.
Here's the common FOS format I see: "In Alice and Bob and the Hidden Temple of the Trope, Bob made some very poor decisions, leading to the Never Live It Down response from fans. But Bob had been a Butt-Monkey and a huge Jerkass since Alice and Bob in the Evil Lair."
Here's what the Star Wars examples sound like: "Alice and Bob IV was criticized by many for its lack of developed villains. The same could be said about Alice and Bob's Big Damn Movie!, which used a stereotypical Space Romans Corrupt Politician. This didn't become an issue until Alice and Bob: The Interquel, where the villain was a huge Memetic Loser. But then..................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
See how much neater the first example is? That's what the page should look more like.
Ooooof. That's pretty emblematic of a LOT of the Star Wars pages' examples, too.. Arguing against themselves, tangents to mention "not to mention in XYZ...", justifying...
So, after moving stuff from the live YMMV.The Rise Of Skywalker into my current Google docs draft for Sandbox.The Rise Of Skywalker YMMV, there are fourteen Author's Saving Throw.
I commented out for now the links to tropes with other pages, ex. Narm and They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot, but I'm not sure what to do with them it's time to move out of the sandbox.
Eventually we'll figure out Alternative Character Interpretation... I've compiled a Google doc for all I could find across various Star Wars YMMV pages. It's... it's a lot. It's so much. It's such a mess. I don't even know where to put it so y'all can see how bad it's gotten— another sandbox?
Yes, I'd like to see a sub-sandbox for the really awful pages.
Feel the pain at Sandbox.Star Wars ACI
And this is just the canon pages. I didn't look at the Legends spaces.
Edited by immichan on Mar 14th 2020 at 10:22:12 AM
Short-Term Projects herald
It seems like I mentioned it twice before, solely because I forgot I mentioned it the first time.
I wonder how much can be removed without sacrificing context for non-fans. I also noticed that three examples mention the retcons.
Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
I looked at FranchiseOriginalSin.Star Wars. That page needs to be killed in a purifying ritual to the gods of concise writing.
Anyway, I also read your ATT thread, Earthbound Fan, and I have some ideas on how we can salvage it.
From what I can tell, the "original sins", such as they are, are the following:
- Rehashed plot points. Both the prequel and the sequel trilogies have been guilty of this, but the original trilogy did it first with ROTJ.
- The dialogue. The prequels especially got his hard with this, but clunky dialogue goes back to the very first lines of ANH.
- Politics. As Leia constantly reminds Tarkin, she was on "a diplomatic mission to Alderaan", y'all. Don't hate the prequels for what the original trilogy started.
- Continuity and retcons. Look no further than, "No, I am your father!" for complaints about the PT and ST messing up the continuity.
- Time skips. Are these even a sin? I thought it was okay to skip past the boring parts so you can get to the exciting stuff. I think we can probably cut this one.
- Anakin's expanded backstory due to Vader's popularity. Ugh. Complaint. Douse it in fire and burn it to ashes!! *ahem*
- Kid-appeal characters. The ewoks.
- Offensively stereotypical alien characters (prequels). Jabba, Jawas, Tuskens, etc. The originals planted those seeds.
- Underdeveloped villains. At first, Tarkin was a space fascist, Vader was a mysterious masked man with a penchant for strangling people, and the Emperor was just a menacing hooded figure.
- Relying on the Force too much. Uh, yeah. Luke kept discovering more force powers the stronger he got. From pulling his lightsaber to him, to moving C3PO around, these are all new and previously-unmentioned powers.
- Lack of a clear protagonist for the start of the trilogy. It's called "different POVs" and "setting up the story". The story wouldn't be nearly as exciting if we started with Luke on Tatooine and had the droids pop in from nowhere, without context. Cut it.
- The midi-chlorians. That example, besides being massive, ends up contradicting itself. Yes, they are a sin, but if you think about it they're not. Cut it.
That's the Prequel Trilogy folder. I'll tackle the others tomorrow, after I get some sleep.
Edited by RoundRobin on Mar 14th 2020 at 4:48:26 PM
- Fly, robin, fly! - ...I'm trying!
"Anakin's expanded backstory due to Vader's popularity. Ugh. Complaint. Douse it in fire and burn it to ashes!! *ahem*"
Well that feels a little insensitive to Vader given what happened on Mustafar... 
Either ~Kevjro7 heard my cry or had the same thinking about Author's Saving Throw because they made a page and started migrating stuff over. THANK YOU! I'll move over the TROS stuff from the sandbox!
Susjection!
You're welcome. And while I'm here, I thought I'd let you all know that the "Anthology Movies" and "Other" folders on the Original Sin page have 3 entries and 1 entry respectively, so they should be pretty easy to cleanup.
Edited by Kevjro7 on Mar 14th 2020 at 8:51:17 AM
Normally I'm not into making pages for those complainy YMMV items, but I'm so glad to see the examples shifted into one page.
I'll take a look at the FOS Sequel Trilogy folder:
- Happy Ending Override: I'm thinking of cutting it down to the first paragraph, the other is full of tangents and justifications.
- "Alien representation": No. Kill It with Fire.
- Plot-recycling: Keeping, but it shouldn't be indented.
- Luke's override: No, this is only criticism of the ST, no "original" part. Also uses the wrong form of "affects".
- Canto Bight: Keep. It's fine.
- Snoke not mattering: Cut. Burn. Kill. It's VERY outdated.
- Phasma's death: Keep.
- Prioritizing subverting expectations: Destroy.
- Recycled plots, TROS edition: Redundant.
- Ass Pull: I'm thinking we keep external AP examples under lockdown for now. Cut.
- Force power-creep: Keep.
There are some more examples in the folder to cover, but I'm tired of doing this.
Alright, round two:
- Unlimited resources: I can't even read this in one sitting without saying "Wh-...what?". Burn.
- Star Wars turned into being about Palpatine: Missing the point. Palps' death in Return of the Jedi is supposed to be a narrative shift that turns the galaxy far, far away back into the thriving world it once was.
- Plot points stolen from Dark Empire: Redundant of a previous example.
- Palpatine's return being similar to Maul's return in TCW: I say we comment-out this one until June 20th to see if this is a prolonged conflict.
- "One minor example from TROS...": I don't know what this is saying. BURN.
I've gotten the ST folder down to six examples, with the PT one at eight.
Edited by EarthboundFan on Mar 17th 2020 at 5:56:03 AM
You brave, brave souls. I can't even bear to read the page, and there y'all are getting it fixed. ![[awesome]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/minis/award_star_gold_3.png "[awesome]"){kind=small}
*
* unless you're Chewie, according to the complaints 
My work on Sandbox.The Rise Of Skywalker YMMV continues. I anticipate a storm of wank when the novel releases. I wonder when to drop the sandbox into the main page. I wonder many things.
I see Earthbound Fan also bravely started poking at Sandbox.Star Wars ACI. Given the large mess there, idk if we should come up with an organization for that trope before or after cleaning up bad examples. Questions rumbling around my brain include...
- Should various ACI about one character who appears in multiple things continue to be spread across those appearances? Or gathered in one place on the franchise page?
- For multiple ACI about one character, use second level bulleting for each new interpretation?
- If ACI were clearly written before a new thing was released, kill it with fire?
- What's with all the ACI in the form of asking questions "Is this person THIS, or THAT?" Seems more like WMG or something to format that way... but what IS the right way?
- Shipping-related stuff, is that actually ACI or something else?
- help me I'm too weak
- Speaking of, is ACI for individual characters, because people have long rambles about the Jedi Order as a whole...
- And if stuff was gathered all on the franchise page, would it be divided by character? By trilogy/era? By work? Something else?
Edited by immichan on Mar 15th 2020 at 2:54:14 PM
I've been trying to make the Unfortunate Implications work but...
Well, thoughts, please? Especially on the "Ben Solo was abused AND DIED" stuff, because I just don't get how dying after the abuser translates into "you can only escape by dying"— it feels like complaining about the ending disguised as "think of the messages you're sending!" I've rewritten it over and over and it never comes out sounding like a potential implication in the film, even though many people have indeed claimed it, since it relies on a misreading the order of events and viewing Ben with the brainwashed-victim-not-actually-villain lens rather than the villain-with-a-sucky-life lens.
Current on YMMV.The Rise Of Skywalker:
- Unfortunate Implications:
- Quite a few people noted
how Rose being sidelined in this movie, after the previous one was clearly building up to something with her, feels uncomfortably like Disney bowing to the whims of the openly racist and misogynistic attacks on her very existence that pushed Kelly Marie Tran off social media. The creators later claimed that her screentime was cut due to technical issues as she was intended to share several scenes with Leia, though this fails to address the issues with her being cut from merchandise, or also cutting scenes where she interacted with Rey.
- Ben Solo was abused and manipulated by Snoke and Palpatine for an unknown span of his life (the expanded universe suggests it began while he was still in Leia's womb) and he was let down by his family members, especially Luke (who nearly killed him and thus drove him to the Dark Side), and this contributed to Ben's misery throughout the entire Sequel Trilogy. The moment that the source of his abuse is vanquished, he gets only a short moment of legitimate happiness before he dies. Some viewers have interpreted his death as the filmmakers subliminally saying to viewers that the only escape to abuse is via death. Ben's death could also carry implications that once you've done something bad - even if you thought it was right at the time or you came to feel guilt and remorse about it - dying is the only way you'll ever be forgiven or able to make amends, as opposed to actively trying to turn your life around and do good (particularly as this tends to be a recurring trend for repentant villains in Star Wars).
- Other viewers argue that focusing on how Ben Solo was manipulated rather than his actions and the fact that he's an adult suggests someone who has experienced abuse is no longer responsible for their own harmful actions, such as using similar techniques against Rey, and should not experience the consequences of their choices. It doesn't help that his death means he can never actually work on making amends for his misdeeds and developing into a better person in the long term, which has been pointed out as a being potential problem not just in this film, but with the Redemption Equals Death trope in a number of stories.
- This article examines Rey and Kylo Ren's relationship across all three movies and points out many abusive undertones, from his Mind Probe of Rey, scaring her and ordering her around, and trying to kill Rey repeatedly for rejecting him. None of this is ever really addressed before or after Kylo makes a Heel–Face Turn; Kylo's previous treatment of Rey is seemingly forgotten as she willingly kisses him, which can come off as his actions being dismissed or glossed over.
- Some have argued that the plot twist of Rey being descended from Palpatine carries sexist implications that undermine her as a character; Rey being the Randomly Gifted daughter of junk traders meant that she was a woman who just happened to be powerful in her own right, whereas the reveal that she inherited her Force powers from her paternal grandfather could imply that she's only powerful and special because of her relation to a man.
- Besides the above issues with Rey's origins, a number of people feel that there are other problematic implications with way the female characters are portrayed in the film:
- Leia does little of significance until she sacrifices herself in the third act (mostly to provide motivation for Kylo). Her Resistance is largely a failure until a man steps in following her death (when Leia called for help no one responded, while Lando is somehow able to persuade thousands of people to help). It's revealed that she trained as a Jedi, but gave it up because she feared it would harm her son, which is only vaguely explained - some have interpreted this as Leia literally giving up her career because of motherhood.
- Rose, an Asian woman, was a major character in the previous film and set up as a core member of the heroes, yet is heavily sidelined in this movie to the point she could've been written out altogether. The film introduces two new female characters, Zorri Bliss and Jannah, but it's been argued that they're essentially interchangeable with Rose, implying that these characters as a whole are mostly expendable. They're also largely defined by their relationships to male characters and have little plot significance outside this; Zorri is indicated to be a New Old Flame to Poe (and comes off as a Faux Action Girl to boot), while Jannah is an Implied Love Interest to Finn and is loosely hinted to be related to Lando.
- It's been pointed out by some viewers that making Poe, the first Latino lead in the Star Wars franchise, a former spice (drug) smuggler comes with some unfortunate racial baggage, especially as this part of his backstory had never been mentioned or hinted at before.
- Quite a few people noted
Drafting rewrites:
- Unfortunate Implications:
- VERSIONS:
- A: Ben Solo's redemption and death seems to pessimists like an Aesop that feeling guilt and wanting to make amends isn't enough; the only escape from emotional pain, like his conflict over killing Han, and abuse, like his longtime manipulation by Snoke, is death.
- B: Ben was manipulated and abused by Snoke and Palpatine, and shortly after Palpatine's death, Ben dies reviving Rey. This seems to cynics like a message that people can only escape their abusers by dying.
- A: Ben Solo's redemption and death seems to pessimists like
- Kylo's emotions get more focus than the pain and death he inflicts on others, and his previous stalking and violence towards Rey is seemingly forgotten when she initiates their kiss. This suggests that abusive people should be loved and forgiven if they feel bad and do something good for the person they previously abused, contrary to how this does not work out in real life and puts victims in more danger.
- Leia's storyline may be sexist since it includes dying to provide motivation for a man (sacrificing herself in the third act leads to Kylo's Heel–Face Turn), her legacy failing until a man steps in and gets the job done (Lando persuades thousands of people to help the Resistance after her death), and revealing she gave up a career because of motherhood (ended her Jedi training because of a vision that her Jedi path would end with her son's death).
- New female characters Zorii Bliss and Jannah have little plot significance, and they're largely defined by their relationships to male characters. Zorii is a New Old Flame to Poe; Jannah is an Implied Love Interest to Finn and is loosely hinted to be related to Lando.
- Some viewers are concerned that changing Rey into Palpatine's granddaughter undermines her as a character; Rey being the Randomly Gifted daughter of junk traders meant that she was a woman who just happened to be powerful in her own right, whereas inheriting her Force powers from her paternal grandfather implies that she's only powerful and special because of her relation to a man.
- Rose's sidelining looks like Disney bowing to the openly racist and misogynistic attacks that pushed her actress, Kelly Marie Tran, off social media. The filmmakers claimed that her screentime was cut due to technical issues with scenes incorporating Leia, but this doesn't explain why they cut Rose's scenes with Rey or why she was cut from merchandise.
- Viewers have pointed out that since Poe is the first Latino lead in the Star Wars franchise, expanding or changing his backstory to make him a former spice (drug) smuggler comes with some unfortunate racial baggage.
- VERSIONS:
![[nja]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/user_ninja_2074.png "[nja]"){kind=small}
I had a fridge moment about the Ben example and some of the others, like the Family-Unfriendly Aesop ones which I removed in sandbox since they got so much edit warring. Some tropers are basically using YMMV to say "I didn't get the Ben Solo Lives ending I wanted, therefore the film is saying [insert pessimism here]." While "someone in the audience has had this reaction" is true, does that kind of stuff belong?
Edited by immichan on Mar 16th 2020 at 3:26:37 PM
We decided "Rey Palpatine is sexist" was false a long time ago.
Oh, geez, "bowing".
Edited by EarthboundFan on Mar 16th 2020 at 1:20:34 AM
I remember the "no, this isn't Never a Self-Made Woman" discussion— snippy snip?
Yeah, "bowing" is a... word choice. Is changing the verb enough to salvage the example, or snip snip?
Basically, I've seen those sexist/racist critiques about the female characters, so I don't disagree with them as an example of something since those are indeed responses out in the wild, but Unfortunate Implications feels like it's probably the wrong trope.
I'm wondering if a bunch of the Ben Solo stuff actually falls into Misaimed Fandom?
How about this:
- Misaimed Fandom: Kylo Ren fans who emotionally invested in Draco in Leather Pants interpretations have become Viewers in Mourning with his Redemption Equals Death. They view Ben Solo as a lifelong victim of abuse and mental illness whose family didn't love him enough, was brainwashed into being a villain, "made mistakes" when he killed and hurt people, and just wanted to be loved. They say he "did nothing wrong" and "deserved better," he should've been forgiven for his crimes as Kylo Ren, and his family "died to save him" so his death turns his entire life into a "Shaggy Dog" Story. Trending hashtags campaigns on Twitter include #SaveBenSolo, #BenSoloLives, #BringBenSoloBack], and [=#WeLoveBenSolo.
- (If people try to shove back in Family-Unfriendly Aesop, Unfortunate Implications, etc. along these lines, we could point back to here?)
- Unfortunate Implications:
- Since The Force Awakens, Kylo's interactions with Rey have been compared to an abusive relationship, including an article in the official Star Wars Insider magazine prior to this film's release which paralleled The Last Jedi with Lenore Walker's "cycle of abuse" model citation . Rey seemingly forgives or forgets his behavior when she kisses him, drawing negative reactions from viewers who see this as implying Kylo's stalking and violence is romantic instead of abusive.
- (I would very much appreciate other eyes on this because it's a viewpoint I've also shared since TFA, and therefore am biased towards.)
- Leia's storyline may be sexist since it includes dying to provide motivation for a man (sacrificing herself in the third act leads to Kylo's Heel–Face Turn), her legacy failing until a man steps in and gets the job done (Lando persuades thousands of people to help the Resistance after her death), and revealing she gave up a career because of motherhood (ended her Jedi training because of a vision that her Jedi path would end with her son's death).
- New female characters Zorii Bliss and Jannah have little plot significance, and they're largely defined by their relationships to male characters. Zorii is a New Old Flame to Poe; Jannah is an Implied Love Interest to Finn and is loosely hinted to be related to Lando.
- Rose's sidelining looks like Disney gave up on her character after the openly racist and misogynistic attacks that pushed her actress, Kelly Marie Tran, off social media. The filmmakers claimed that her screentime was cut due to technical issues with scenes incorporating Leia, but this doesn't explain why they cut Rose's scenes with Rey or why she was cut from merchandise.
- Viewers have pointed out that since Poe is the first Latino lead in the Star Wars franchise, expanding or changing his backstory to make him a former spice (drug) smuggler comes with some unfortunate racial baggage.
- Since The Force Awakens, Kylo's interactions with Rey have been compared
Certainly a marked improvement! A couple notes (the latter two of which are relatively minor):
The Misaimed Fandom entry does a good job of describing how a certain segment of fans has reacted to the character and ultimate fate of Kylo Ren / Ben Solo, but it doesn't describe the intended reaction, so it doesn't really explain how this particular fandom is "misaimed." Given the lack of unified vision among the creators of the Sequel Trilogy as a whole, it might be hard to make a good case that the level of investment that segment has in the character is actually unintended. Word of God would help, if it's available.
This may be pedantic of me, but Kylo Ren's actions aren't "compared" to an abusive relationship: according to the sources linked, they are abusive, full stop. Other than that I think the wording is good; simple, descriptive, neutral.
The phrasing in the Leia bullet point— "may be" sexist— is slightly Weasel Wordy. We're not concerned with whether it "is" sexist by some objective metric (if such a thing were even possible), nor with the likelihood that it "may" be (as if there were some sort of probabilistic model for determining it). It's enough to note that critics have noticed sexist implications, and leave the question of whether those implications have substance to the reader.
Edited by HighCrate on Mar 16th 2020 at 4:17:37 AM
I'm not sure if it was part of what the example was getting at, but the Pink Power Ranger (oh, sorry, "Zorii") and Janna are also criticized for potentially (I say "potentially" even though it's abundantly clear) just existing to downplay the Ho Yay of Finn and Poe. I'll find a citation for that.
I'm thinking that I maybe start a thread for AlternativeCharacterInterpretation.Star Wars and the examples on those respective YMMV pages, since I don't know of a simpler way to discuss it here without going "So, uh, it, uh".
Let's see if this gives more context, too much context, or argues against itself:
- Misaimed Fandom: J. J. Abrams, Rian Johnson and Adam Driver developed Kylo Ren as a complex character still evolving as a villain after a history of being targeted by Snoke and feeling abandoned by his busy family. Driver describes Kylo as a religious fanatic or radicalised extremist who thinks in absolute terms, and doesn't believe he needs redemption because he's convinced he's morally justified. This makes Kylo "more dangerous" and "scarier" than if he was just "evil." Kylo's multi-dimensional character and nuanced portrayal successfully intrigues fans. Many who hope he'll be redeemed are disappointed or saddened by his death, but enjoy Ben Solo in the final act of The Rise of Skywalker and wish Driver had more screentime as Ben.
The misaimed fans go past all that. They're invested in Ben Solo as the hero of the trilogy. They view him as a lifelong victim of abuse and mental illness whose family didn't love him enough, who was brainwashed into being a villain, makes mistakes like hurting and killing people, and just wants to be loved. They're Viewers in Mourning who believe Ben's death turns his story into a pointless tragedy full of Unfortunate Implications and Family Unfriendly Aesops. They've spammed official Star Wars social media accounts and created trending hashtag campaigns including #SaveBenSolo, #BenSoloLives, #BringBenSoloBack, and #WeLoveBenSolo.
I've definitely seen stuff about the Zorii and Jannah thing and it's also covered on Die for Our Ship— work it into that Unfortunate Implications example too? Or nah? Citation please if yes!
ACI thread sounds like a very good idea— with so much of it... sooo much of it...— there's going to be a lot of that.
must... stop... tweaking
Edited by immichan on Mar 17th 2020 at 6:17:46 AM
Here's one that sums up how much potential there had been for "Finnpoe" to be canon. I think it can be added in as a final sentence.
re: Franchise Original Sin; So the " Anthology Movies" folder is only complaining one of them, Solo.
- References to the animated shows: I don't think these are the same thing. The characters from Rebels or TCW that show up in Rogue One were introduced through the animated series. Maul, on the other hand, was introduced in Phantom Menace, so it stands that those who only see the theatrical films would see it as an Unexplained Recovery. The example also brings this up. The example brings up the evidence that it might not be a valid example, on ITSELF. I need some consensus on this one.
- Predictable outcome: Uh, hello, Qi'ra ascending to a higher position in the Crimson Dawn by killing Dryden Vos? Han shooting Becket during his "Now you better be listenin' cause I'm about to tell you somethin' real important" speech? The Crimson Dawn being run by Maul? Cutting.
- Self-explanatory explainations: Snarky, but keeping.
Edited by EarthboundFan on Mar 17th 2020 at 11:01:28 AM
Short-Term Projects herald
Honestly, I thought the anthology film folder was fine, myself.
Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
Isn't the Maul stuff just Continuity Lockout? And arguing against itself that the easter eggs were "gratuitous" yet not "distracting or confusing"? FIRE
Predictable outcome? ALSO FIRE!
The "self-explanatory" snark is all right as a point, writing is messy but the point's all right. (And heck, explanations for things not needing explanations goes back to Legends "let's develop a full biography for that background character" stuff :P)
How's this? The quote I added has some odd wording at the end but it really sums things up.
have little plot significance, and they're largely defined by their relationships to male characters. Zorii is a New Old Flame to Poe; Jannah is an Implied Love Interest to Finn and is loosely hinted to be related to Lando. Audiences think they were created just to give Poe and Finn love interests besides each other.
: Sure, it's a shame that these women were introduced in order to make sure the two male leads look less like they were in love with one another &endash; – it didn’t work, by the way &endash; but it's an even bigger shame for the women. Zorii Bliss and Jannah, two very different characters but connected to Poe and Finn in their own way, do not deserve to be written in a way that makes them as just a tool.
I think I'm ready to move Sandbox.The Rise Of Skywalker YMMV into YMMV.The Rise Of Skywalker and brace for post-novelization reactions.
Edited by immichan on Mar 17th 2020 at 5:02:10 AM
That UF example is pretty good!
I'm not sure what to do with Maul, because it seems like a bit of a stretch to call this an "Original Sin" considering how they're two different things. Brainulator9 says it's okay, and think the examples are generally alright, just the writing is not.
Furthermore
I'm happy to see that the TROS YMMV is coming along nicely. I'll discuss locking the page afterward.
Edited by EarthboundFan on Mar 17th 2020 at 3:55:46 AM
Crown Description:
Sandbox.Star Wars ACI has collected examples of Alternative Character Interpretation for Star Wars characters across more than 20 pages, including AlternativeCharacterInterpretation.Star Wars. Some characters have entries on AlternativeCharacterInterpretation.Star Wars, plus the YMMV pages for works where they make appearances, ex. Anakin Skywalker is on franchise-wide, Return of the Jedi, each of the prequel films, Thrawn: Alliances, plus the Darth Vader entries. This is just looking at the canon namespaces and not Legends. Before fixing issues with the examples themselves, we need to decide on how this trope will be organized for this franchise. These options are mutually exclusive; while you can find more than one acceptable, we will only enact one. For a different explanation of the options and the problems with this trope, see the Star Wars Cleanup thread: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15787899810A93565000&page=12#comment-294
Dropping this here for when anyone has the time/willpower to join me (and together we will— well, you know). This big ol' list is about reviewing and repairing things on Star Wars – Kylo Ren that are or may be:
- tropes about lovers/couples as text or romantic/sexual subtext
- or mentioning the above things in examples that aren't about those things, shoehorning mentions of the ship, or sinkholing to romantic tropes when it isn't necessary context
- or not mentioning these things when it would be relevant
We need to look for shipping and anti-shipping bias and consider whether to delete, edit, leave as-is. I've personally overdone toning down an overtly shippy subtext example before to the point that another troper thought I'd eliminated all the romantic subtext and fixed it, so I think all of these would best be tackled with a mix of viewpoints coming to a consensus. Readers shouldn't know if the examples were written by a shipper or non-shipper; aim for objectivity!Edited by immichan on Mar 13th 2020 at 1:14:17 PM