Paging ~amathieu13 as requested.
Anyway, I'm leaning toward going with the proposal to rewrite the description, but without splitting.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 24th 2023 at 1:51:34 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I see no point in splitting.
Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra NovaTo be honest, I'm not sure what kind of split was even being proposed if we split, which is why I said I'm fine with rewriting but not splitting.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.In my personal opinion, splitting is unneeded and this should have its description rewritten.
The split would be for what I mentioned in the second to last paragraph
i.e. "a feature a character has that they consider to be their best feature and proudly boast about" and "a feature that is acknowledged by others to be a character's best feature / selling point". Compare:
like I said, I don't have strong opinions on whether or not we split, but those were two distinct uses I found in the wick check.
Edited by amathieu13 on Mar 25th 2023 at 3:35:35 PM
charm point is often an out-of-universe Word of God thing (i.e. the old page image was a manga panel with a caption pointing at a girl's butt, saying "her butt is her charm point") so that would be something worth considering as well
the "character thinks X trait is their charm point, but others disagree" definition could probably just fall under Delusions of Beauty, so i don't think it needs to be split. i would say rewrite the description and have it cover in-universe or word of god confirmed examples where the term "charm point" is specifically used, regardless of which definition it is.
in most of the examples I checked, other characters didn't agree or disagree. It was just an assessment made by the character themselves. That's why I compared it to Big-Breast Pride since both are about a feature a character takes great pride in. Most wouldn't fall under Delusions of Beauty because the character doesn't have a delusion about their appearance, they just think a quality of theirs is a stand-out.
Having long legs and thinking they're your charm point doesn't make you delusional. Having short legs but constantly boasting about them being long and beautiful, however, would.
Edited by amathieu13 on Mar 25th 2023 at 3:51:15 PM
I have a better grasp of what you mentioned potentially splitting, but I'm still not convinced there's a sufficient difference between "Character X says Y is their Charm Point" and "Character X says Y is Character Z's Charm Point" because the only major difference is whether the label is self-applied or applied by another character.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 25th 2023 at 3:10:39 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Rewrite the description and although there's a difference between everyone thinking a trait of another is their charm point or it's the character themselves thinking this about themselves, I don't think a split is needed. Maybe we can soft split the examples, but that's all.
Rather than Delusions of Beauty, there's Proud Beauty but it's for when a character thinks they're attractive in general, not just a feature of them.
Hooked a crowner since the main issue is whether to split or not, since there's support for rewriting regardless of whether we split or keep this as one trope.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Posting this comment to make public that I voted in favor of rewriting the description without renaming. I didn't touch the other option.
135 - 169 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300Calling in favor of the following:
- Rewrite the description to explicitly limit it to physical/personality traits and items that are basically a part of a character\'s daily personal appearance like glasses, and remove the part about Magic Feather entirely, but don't split.
Sandboxing the revised description might be a good idea.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I archived the wick check and replaced the wick check in Sandbox.Charm Point with a copy of the main page so we can use it to draft the rewrite.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Oops, I meant to remove the Magic Feather paragraph on the sandbox but indavertently made that change on the Main/ page itself. Since it's been canned regardless, I figure the removal can stay?
Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker MailI rewrote the description in the sandbox
Looks good to me.
Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker MailPatiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Rewrite looks good to me.
Macron's notesI swapped in the new description and removed on page examples that no longer fit.
Just need to go through off page wicks and remove any that no longer fit and this can be done. There are 125.
This one's at 110 wicks. I've gone through some but am not really confident about this trope and would rather leave it to someone that's more familiar with the concept.
Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mailoh yeah i checked all of the wicks under characters already. will get back into this.
Finished going through the rest of the wicks. This thread can be closed.
Cool, closing.
Crown Description:
Charm Point has an unclear description. What should be done with it?
To-do list:
Charm Point is defined as "a coveted and well-tended accessory of a character (often a flaw) that makes them attractive or at least interesting to other characters, if only in their own head. This can be anything: a well-groomed mustache, a bizarre body part, a favorite hat, a personality trait, or a bow tie."
The wording of this comes off as odd to me. The term is a form of Wasei-eigo, i.e. "Japanese-language expressions based on English words, or parts of word combinations, that do not exist in standard English or whose meanings differ from the words from which they were derived." I'm not a native Japanese speaker, but from my experience, the term is used more or less the same as asking someone what their "best feature" is, i.e. a physical feature or a personality trait. This is backed up by online dictionaries [1] [2] While it can refer to things that aren't a part of a person, from what I've seen/heard, it's still mostly limited to things that are considered part of one's daily personal appearance, like glasses. A favorite hat/bow-tie might be considered a Charm Point if the character wears them every single day, but those are rather fringe examples all things considered.
Continuing on this interpretation of Charm Points as accessories, the description then describes how the point can be a Magic Feather, something a character thinks helps them be good at something, but this has little to do with the rest of the trope.
I did a wick check and there's a couple of key things. 44 (88%) of the wicks are specifically of a physical or personality trait. Only 3 (6%) were of actual items and 2/3 of those were about glasses specifically. 1 (2%) example only was of the Magic Feather interpretation.
Also relevant, there was a previous TRS thread about Charm Point (that also started off thinking it was solely about accessories and items) in which people questioned the Magic Feather inclusion and whether or not "character's most attractive feature" is even tropeworthy, with one suggestion that it should be limited to In-Universe only. I considered this when doing the wick check and found that there are times when charm points are self-defined (Character A considers their smile to be their Charm Point, regardless of whether or not others agree) and times when others consider some aspect to be another character's Charm Point In-Universe (Everyone considers Character A's long legs to be her most attractive feature). The split of examples were self-defined = 15 (30%) and others defined In-Universe = 20 (40%)
I'm not sure whether or not these two should remain under the same trope or if Charm Point should focus on one vs the other. To me, it feels like the difference between Big-Breast Pride and Buxom Is Better, which are separate tropes currently. Also, a part of me feels like the "other defined" version is covered under other tropes. That said, the term itself is used in both contexts so I can see keeping them together.
Overall Thoughts:
Wick check:
How is this trope being used on the site?Wicks Checked - 50
Note: Potholed examples were made explicit by placing the trope in parentheses next to the text it was potholing, which is highlighted in green. Red are my thoughts / any commentary to explain why I sorted something that could be ambiguous.
Character points out this trait of themselves
Others In-Universe consider this another's attractive feature
Ambiguous / Doesn't Say
Self-defined
Others defined
Ambiguous or Unclear
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 31st 2023 at 5:08:07 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.