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GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#1: Mar 24th 2023 at 11:48:21 PM

To-do list:

  • Rewrite the description to explicitly limit it to physical/personality traits and items that are basically a part of a character's daily personal appearance like glasses, and remove the part about Magic Feather entirely. Sandbox.Charm Point can be used for the rewrite.
  • Clean up any examples that don't fit the revised definition.
    • Clean up on-page examples.
    • Clean up wicks.

    Original post 
Note: This thread was proposed by amathieu13.

Charm Point is defined as "a coveted and well-tended accessory of a character (often a flaw) that makes them attractive or at least interesting to other characters, if only in their own head. This can be anything: a well-groomed mustache, a bizarre body part, a favorite hat, a personality trait, or a bow tie."

The wording of this comes off as odd to me. The term is a form of Wasei-eigo, i.e. "Japanese-language expressions based on English words, or parts of word combinations, that do not exist in standard English or whose meanings differ from the words from which they were derived." I'm not a native Japanese speaker, but from my experience, the term is used more or less the same as asking someone what their "best feature" is, i.e. a physical feature or a personality trait. This is backed up by online dictionaries [1] [2] While it can refer to things that aren't a part of a person, from what I've seen/heard, it's still mostly limited to things that are considered part of one's daily personal appearance, like glasses. A favorite hat/bow-tie might be considered a Charm Point if the character wears them every single day, but those are rather fringe examples all things considered.

Continuing on this interpretation of Charm Points as accessories, the description then describes how the point can be a Magic Feather, something a character thinks helps them be good at something, but this has little to do with the rest of the trope.

I did a wick check and there's a couple of key things. 44 (88%) of the wicks are specifically of a physical or personality trait. Only 3 (6%) were of actual items and 2/3 of those were about glasses specifically. 1 (2%) example only was of the Magic Feather interpretation.

Also relevant, there was a previous TRS thread about Charm Point (that also started off thinking it was solely about accessories and items) in which people questioned the Magic Feather inclusion and whether or not "character's most attractive feature" is even tropeworthy, with one suggestion that it should be limited to In-Universe only. I considered this when doing the wick check and found that there are times when charm points are self-defined (Character A considers their smile to be their Charm Point, regardless of whether or not others agree) and times when others consider some aspect to be another character's Charm Point In-Universe (Everyone considers Character A's long legs to be her most attractive feature). The split of examples were self-defined = 15 (30%) and others defined In-Universe = 20 (40%)

I'm not sure whether or not these two should remain under the same trope or if Charm Point should focus on one vs the other. To me, it feels like the difference between Big-Breast Pride and Buxom Is Better, which are separate tropes currently. Also, a part of me feels like the "other defined" version is covered under other tropes. That said, the term itself is used in both contexts so I can see keeping them together.


Overall Thoughts:
  • Whether we split this into two tropes or not, I have no strong feelings towards as I think an argument can be made for both.
  • Regardless of whether or not we split, I suggest rewriting the description to explicitly limit it to physical/personality traits and items that are basically a part of a character's daily personal appearance like glasses and removing the part about Magic Feather entirely.

Wick check:

How is this trope being used on the site?

Wicks Checked - 50

  • Attractive Physical Feature / Personality Trait - 44 (88%)
    • Self-defined - 14
    • Considered so by others In-Universe - 18
    • Unclear/Ambiguous - 12
  • Attractive Accessory - 3 (6%)
    • Self-defined - 1
    • Considered so by others In-Universe - 2
    • Unclear/Ambiguous - 0
  • Magical Feather Overlap - 1 (2%)
  • Distinguishing Feature - 1 (2%)
  • ZCE - 1 (2%)

Note: Potholed examples were made explicit by placing the trope in parentheses next to the text it was potholing, which is highlighted in green. Red are my thoughts / any commentary to explain why I sorted something that could be ambiguous.


    attractive physical feature/personality trait 

Character points out this trait of themselves

  • Trustfell Round Six - Aligula, Brutal Honesty: Aligula is insultingly honest to everyone and actually considers it a Charm Point.
  • Kiddy GiRL-AND: In one episode Ascoeur points out a small rose on her inner thigh claiming it's her charm point.
  • Fate/Zero: Humans - Tokiomi: According to supplementary materials, his goatee, which he spends a long time daily carefully grooming.
  • Girls of the Wild's - Choi Dal Dal: She is very obsessive about her lips.
  • Love Live! – μ's: each character has a list of stats like age, birthday, blood type, etc and Charm Point is one of them. Given the work focuses on idols and idols frequently list out what their best features are for marketing purposes, I'm classifying all of them here.
  • Majikoi Love Me Seriously Kazama Family - Momoyo: She considers her crossed bangs to be her charm point and gets fidgety if anyone tries to touch them.
  • Sakura Gakuin - Yume: Yume said on her very first FRESH appearance in May 2018 that it was her plump cheeks. However, they began to thin out a bit during the COVID lockdown when she went through a major growth spurt.
  • Tales of Xillia - Milla, Idiot Hair: Ahem, it's a Charm Point!!!
  • Band-Maid, Big Eater: Discussed and shown in at least two music videos with Akane. She loves noodles and has said her Charm Point is her massive appetite.
  • Ouran High School Host Club: Mori is an odd case since his Charm Point is another character. When the club tries to instruct a delinquent that a Charm Point can work wonders for one's image, they bluntly point out that without Honey around people would see Mori as just a huge scary thug who barely talks, much to the latter's distress. Because Honey is there, Mori is instead seen as a Gentle Giant. this one can go either way, tbh in terms of whether or not it's a self-defined aspect or one others have imposed on the character
  • Interspecies Reviewers, Cyclops: A race of one-eyed people. While for the most part, their body types have the same size and variety as humans, the main difference beyond their single eye is the fact said eye comes in a variety of sizes, starting at the size of normal human eyes and going up to taking up around 90% of their face. Cyclopes apparently consider how big their eye is to be a Charm Point, with how big or small it is being thought of in a similar way to how other species view breasts, including using the term "cup" to refer to size, and girls with human-sized eyes getting an ocular version of A-Cup Angst.
  • The Adventure Zone: Balance - Magnus Burnsides: He seems to think this of his facial hair earlier on.
  • Pokémon: The Series — Serena - Fennekin: Fennekin takes great pride in her well-groomed tail, becoming uneasy if it is tarnished.
  • Free!, Surprisingly Realistic Outcome: During the beginning of Season 2, the gang tries to market their club to the incoming freshmen, but they're not quite sure how to do it. Gou suggests (and implements) the swim team showing off their strokes and their "Charm Points" (re:Fanservice) to get people interested. Which would be fine itself, but with the added bonus of stripping onstage to do the aforementioned actions. It only puts potential hopefuls off, and they turn their attention towards other clubs. In fact they only start getting results after Iwatobi's swim team wins nationals, showing that the team is capable and worth their time. You can't win everyone over with Fanservice.

Others In-Universe consider this another's attractive feature

Ambiguous / Doesn't Say

  • My Hero Academia - Ochaco Uraraka, Blush Sticker: She has small permanent ones which highlight her cuteness and innocence; they're even noted as a Charm Point in the character descriptions. She inherited the blush stickers from her mother, who also has them.
  • Ah My Buddha - Sumi, Big Ol' Eyebrows: Her Charm Point, as it were.
  • Harry Potter Ravenclaw - Luna Lovegood, Cloud Cuckoolander: As a Charm Point; talk of Nargles and random streams of consciousness. In Half-Blood Prince this is a Deconstructed Trope as it is brought up that Luna faces the treatment that many real life Cloudcuckoolanders face during the educational years. She has, for example, always been an easy target of teasing by other students and, before her 4th year, her only friend was Ginny. Neither of these facts seem to bother her especially much, though.
  • Megatokyo, Cloud Cuckoolander: Meimi. She's the most out-there conglomeration of magical girl Charm Points that exists. And her magical girl power? Magical theft. She takes magical girl tropes Serial Escalation. There is some evidence that she actually is insane, but most of the time she gives the impression that she's playing it up for whatever reason. At the very least, it's pretty clear that she does accidentally steal things all the time.
  • Jobby the Hong, Fish Eyes: The Charm Point of his Godzilla-based mascot, as seen above.
  • Corpse Party, * Tsundere: Naomi is your typical tsun-tsun. Instead of presenting this as a Charm Point, however, the attitude is Deconstructed as part of her Fatal Flaw.
  • Tropes A to C: Moustaches are Serious Business.
  • Ink City S3: Back to the Wall: Referenced by Ichigo after hearing Wakko never takes his hat off. can't tell if Ichigo is saying it's Wakko's charm point or if Ichigo is saying Wakko thinks it's his charm point.
  • Momoiro Clover Z, Big Ol' Eyebrows: The signature look and Charm Point of Akari.
  • W Juliet: Ito being an enthusiastic Tomboy in looks and personality, and being taller than most girls. Also notable is her aversion to feminine clothing. Many characters at one point or another are amazed at how beautiful Ito looks whenever she does wear anything feminine. Toki even bought Ito a feminine outfit during a party and it brought everyone's attention on her. Of course it was just to make Ito fit Toki's ideals to make her his girlfriend.
  • Ground Control To Psychoelectric Girl, Saying Sound Effects Out Loud: Ryuuko when exchanging numbers with Makoto note , and later Makoto when congratulating Ryuuko for her clever play on words with "Not able to sleep / not having any dreams" note . Related is that Ryuuko rather abuses onomatopoeias in every conversation with Makoto, replacing various words in the middle of sentences with their sound effects instead. It's one of her primary charm points, although most of the instances don't really lend themselves to being easily depicted in translations.
  • The Seven Deadly Sins: Meliodas, Idiot Hair: He has a pair of small cowlicks that stand rather prominently atop his head with one in particular being more pronounced than the other. Identified in the first Fanbook specifically as his "ahoge (アホ毛)", this is reflective of some parts of his personality which fit a typical type of a shonen character and protagonist. The Fanbook also further lists this down as being his Charm Point.

     attractive accessory 

Self-defined

Others defined

Ambiguous or Unclear

    Believed Magic Feather 
  • Lupin III: Part II: A case of skill, rather than beauty, Jigen's hat. In one episode, Jigen becomes unable to shoot straight after losing his hat. He tends to wear it rather low, and later it's explained that the trademark notch in the brim is how he usually lines up his shots.

     Distinguishing Trait 
  • Neither a Bird nor a Plane, it's Deku!: Izuku Midoriya: Izuku's spit curl, which he's had since he was a baby, is his single most noticeable trait. He's often referred to as "Spitcurl" when people don't know his name and it's the first thing most people remember about him until they see him in action.
    Nejire: [upon meeting Izuku] That's so cool! How'd you—oh, you've got a spit curl! Hey, you ever stick your finger in there and twist it around?

     ZCE 

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 31st 2023 at 5:08:07 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#2: Mar 24th 2023 at 11:48:40 PM

Paging ~amathieu13 as requested.

Anyway, I'm leaning toward going with the proposal to rewrite the description, but without splitting.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 24th 2023 at 1:51:34 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#4: Mar 25th 2023 at 12:10:27 AM

To be honest, I'm not sure what kind of split was even being proposed if we split, which is why I said I'm fine with rewriting but not splitting.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
RandomTroper123 She / Her from I'll let you guess... (Not-So-Newbie) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
She / Her
#5: Mar 25th 2023 at 12:18:44 AM

In my personal opinion, splitting is unneeded and this should have its description rewritten.

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#6: Mar 25th 2023 at 12:31:38 AM

The split would be for what I mentioned in the second to last paragraph

there are times when charm points are self-defined (Character A considers their smile to be their Charm Point, regardless of whether or not others agree) and times when others consider some aspect to be another character's Charm Point In-Universe (Everyone considers Character A's long legs to be her most attractive feature).

i.e. "a feature a character has that they consider to be their best feature and proudly boast about" and "a feature that is acknowledged by others to be a character's best feature / selling point". Compare:

Girls of the Wild's: Choi Dal Dal is extremely obsessed with her lips and how kissable they apparently are.
and
Paradise Killer - Crimson: Her head is considered quite attractive In-Universe, as the Syndicate have weird standards of beauty. It's the main reason they wanted her as a poster girl.

like I said, I don't have strong opinions on whether or not we split, but those were two distinct uses I found in the wick check.

Edited by amathieu13 on Mar 25th 2023 at 3:35:35 PM

NoUsername i'm at the combination she and it Since: May, 2012
i'm at the combination she and it
#7: Mar 25th 2023 at 12:44:50 AM

charm point is often an out-of-universe Word of God thing (i.e. the old page image was a manga panel with a caption pointing at a girl's butt, saying "her butt is her charm point") so that would be something worth considering as well

the "character thinks X trait is their charm point, but others disagree" definition could probably just fall under Delusions of Beauty, so i don't think it needs to be split. i would say rewrite the description and have it cover in-universe or word of god confirmed examples where the term "charm point" is specifically used, regardless of which definition it is.

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#8: Mar 25th 2023 at 12:47:59 AM

[up]in most of the examples I checked, other characters didn't agree or disagree. It was just an assessment made by the character themselves. That's why I compared it to Big-Breast Pride since both are about a feature a character takes great pride in. Most wouldn't fall under Delusions of Beauty because the character doesn't have a delusion about their appearance, they just think a quality of theirs is a stand-out.

Having long legs and thinking they're your charm point doesn't make you delusional. Having short legs but constantly boasting about them being long and beautiful, however, would.

Edited by amathieu13 on Mar 25th 2023 at 3:51:15 PM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#9: Mar 25th 2023 at 1:09:54 AM

I have a better grasp of what you mentioned potentially splitting, but I'm still not convinced there's a sufficient difference between "Character X says Y is their Charm Point" and "Character X says Y is Character Z's Charm Point" because the only major difference is whether the label is self-applied or applied by another character.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 25th 2023 at 3:10:39 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
selkies Professional Wick Checker Since: Jan, 2021 Relationship Status: Star-crossed
Professional Wick Checker
#10: Mar 25th 2023 at 8:20:02 AM

Rewrite the description and although there's a difference between everyone thinking a trait of another is their charm point or it's the character themselves thinking this about themselves, I don't think a split is needed. Maybe we can soft split the examples, but that's all.

Rather than Delusions of Beauty, there's Proud Beauty but it's for when a character thinks they're attractive in general, not just a feature of them.

GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#11: Mar 28th 2023 at 12:14:08 AM

Hooked a crowner since the main issue is whether to split or not, since there's support for rewriting regardless of whether we split or keep this as one trope.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
MyFinalEdits Officially intimidated from Parts Unknown (Ten years in the joint) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Officially intimidated
#12: Mar 28th 2023 at 11:08:09 AM

Posting this comment to make public that I voted in favor of rewriting the description without renaming. I didn't touch the other option.

135 - 169 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#13: Mar 31st 2023 at 3:05:24 PM

Calling in favor of the following:

  • Rewrite the description to explicitly limit it to physical/personality traits and items that are basically a part of a character\'s daily personal appearance like glasses, and remove the part about Magic Feather entirely, but don't split.

Sandboxing the revised description might be a good idea.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#14: Mar 31st 2023 at 3:08:41 PM

I archived the wick check and replaced the wick check in Sandbox.Charm Point with a copy of the main page so we can use it to draft the rewrite.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Yindee Just stoic wisdom. from New England Since: Jul, 2016
Just stoic wisdom.
#15: Apr 1st 2023 at 7:50:47 PM

Oops, I meant to remove the Magic Feather paragraph on the sandbox but indavertently made that change on the Main/ page itself. Since it's been canned regardless, I figure the removal can stay?

Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#16: Apr 2nd 2023 at 4:54:21 AM

I rewrote the description in the sandbox

Yindee Just stoic wisdom. from New England Since: Jul, 2016
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#20: Apr 4th 2023 at 6:53:11 PM

I swapped in the new description and removed on page examples that no longer fit.

Just need to go through off page wicks and remove any that no longer fit and this can be done. There are 125.

Yindee Just stoic wisdom. from New England Since: Jul, 2016
Just stoic wisdom.
#21: Apr 7th 2023 at 4:56:59 PM

This one's at 110 wicks. I've gone through some but am not really confident about this trope and would rather leave it to someone that's more familiar with the concept.

Vehicle-Based Characterization | Grief-Induced Split | Locker Mail
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#22: Apr 7th 2023 at 7:37:48 PM

oh yeah i checked all of the wicks under characters already. will get back into this.

amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#23: Apr 7th 2023 at 9:24:28 PM

Finished going through the rest of the wicks. This thread can be closed.

Synchronicity MOD (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
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Trope Repair Shop: Charm Point
28th Mar '23 12:12:10 AM

Crown Description:

Charm Point has an unclear description. What should be done with it?

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