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Deadlock Clock: Sep 28th 2022 at 11:59:00 PM

To-do list:

The following changes have been made to Ambiguous Situation:

  • Turn into a Super-Trope to several other "Ambiguous" and "Unclear" tropes that better fit the current use, similar to what TRS previously did with Hate Sink, requiring examples to be moved to subtropes that fit
  • Set a requirement for the work to imply that the situation may or may not have happened (or other possibilities), with some degree of In-Universe merit for either.

Thus, the following need to be done:

  • Update the description of Ambiguous Situation to match the revised definition.
  • Clean any wicks that don't fit.

    Original post 
Ambiguous Situation is a trope existing since 2010 which has gained inflationary use in the last couple of years (see chart).

https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/as_by_year.PNG

This trajectory can be explained by a decay of its original meaning over time into something broader and fuzzier.

The definition started out as: A trope is in play but it's not made clear which one. The narrative purpose is most likely to induce a sense of mystery. It required the examples to spell out which alternative tropes a situation is playing with. Obviously this limited its use.

The definition successively loosened up, the original requirement to have alternative tropes in play was dropped and now we have: A scene is open to alternative interpretations. The transformation was completed two weeks ago when a troper changed the Laconic from the original to the new definition after I opened a discussion on Trope Talk.

Let me get this straight, I don't like the trope in either old or new form for the following reasons:

  1. it has a strong subjective component, not everyone brings the same level of expectations to a scene
  2. the fact that a work has limitations and simply cannot spell out everything in every scene even if it wanted to
  3. unintentionally sloppy storytelling can be mistaken for this trope
But it's really the current definition that opens itself up to all kinds of speculations and trivialities beyond any actual situation or moment.
Wick Check notes:
  • 75 examples were checked
  • Of the 5,724 listings of the trope almost half of them appear on character sheets although one would assume this to be a plot trope.
  • 24% of the examples are potholes for speculative comments or things like "maybe" or "possibly".
  • This is one of the tropes you better experience rather than read it up. Hence, my categorization is subjective. And also not mutually exclusive.
  • It was not apparent from the examples if the mentioned ambiguity was noteworthy, meaning if it had any impact on the experience of the scene.

Results:

  • 5% comply with a loose take of the original definition, meaning "a trope is at play or maybe it's not"
  • 20% cover situations where a plot point is unclear while a scene plays out
  • 24% describe unclear character motivations (it's unclear why X did this)
  • 13% describe uncertainty about a character's identity independent of any scene
  • 17% describe unclear aspects from a character's past or things that might or might not have happened off-screen
  • 12% were other tropes, mainly Uncertain Doom or Ambiguous Ending
  • 9% I could not make sense of

I struggle to come up with a proposal here. If it was up to me, I would trash this because of my complaints listed above.

Edited by GastonRabbit on May 28th 2022 at 8:10:54 AM

MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#101: Sep 25th 2022 at 5:08:36 PM

~A Nonagon 9 said they were going work out a list of subtropes and contrasts but I don't know if they have had time to work on that or not.

EDIT: Looks like the list is on Sandbox.Ambiguous Situation.

Edited by MacronNotes on Sep 25th 2022 at 8:10:52 AM

Macron's notes
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#102: Sep 25th 2022 at 5:10:32 PM

My streak of stopping mods from double-posting via a [nja] post is continuing [lol]

And hmmm, yeah, that does need to be hashed out first.

Edited by WarJay77 on Sep 25th 2022 at 8:10:48 AM

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
MacronNotes (she/her) (Captain) Relationship Status: Less than three
(she/her)
#103: Sep 25th 2022 at 5:13:26 PM

Yeah, since my second post started a new page I didn't think know I sandwich posted.

I see that Sandbox.Ambiguous Situation has a list of subtropes so I guess that's where it is. I suppose the goal was to move it to the description.

Macron's notes
WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition (Troper Knight)
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#104: Sep 25th 2022 at 5:15:08 PM

All look fine to me.

Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#105: Sep 25th 2022 at 5:21:45 PM

Shutting off the clock since I didn't know we already had a list of subtropes.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Unicorndance Logic Girl from Thames, N.Z. Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Logic Girl
#106: Sep 25th 2022 at 5:29:30 PM

For what it's worth, I've moved all my speculation-based examples to ACI. Do we have anything else we need to do?

For every low there is a high.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#107: Sep 25th 2022 at 5:33:29 PM

I think just adding the list of subtropes to the description.

Edit: Here's the wick check for archival purposes:

    open/close all folders 

     Ambiguous use of a trope (original definition) - 5% 
  • Ninja Scroll: Kagero puts a distraught face when she sees Chancellor Hyobu is having sex with a woman while giving orders. Is she upset by the Chancellor liking courtesans? Is she disgusted by the old man humping one in front of her? Considering how Kagero sees herself as a mere tool to be used by her lord, is she jealous of the courtesan? Or, now considering she cannot have sex at all due to her poisonous body, is she simply jealous of people who can?
  • Characters.Abraxas Hrodvitnon Titans And Other Creatures: Are they Always Chaotic Evil or do they have the potential to be the Anti-Anti-Christ like Monster X under the right circumstances? Do they even know what they are and what their fathers have planned for them?
  • Devil Survivor 2 Party Members: His absence in the Triangulum Arc is the subject of much confusion. For a while, the party fears Yamato may have been Ret-Gone as a result of the regression as Miyako Hotsuin is the Chief of JP's and he seemingly does not exist in the new world. His presence in the dream where the party was killed by Arcturus also adds fuel to the fire, especially since the protagonist is mysterious absent and was the only one to not have the dream. He's later revealed to be alive and well, hiding in the Astrolabe to ensure the protagonist's data isn't erased so he doesn't fade from existence. The party later has to rescue him when he's assaulted by Canopus' minions, though.
    Unclear if Ret-Gone is in play or not
  • Dying Race: The Borrowers, possibly. Borrowers live so far away from each other (in comparison to their size) that they have very little contact, so they can't be sure how many other Borrowers still exist in the world.
    Unclear if Dying Race or not

     Ambiguous plot point (in the present) - 19% 
  • Characters.Agent Ali: The members of Numeros are codenamed from 1-10. The question is, who is 10 or "Diez" ? Since Rizwan was the only Numeros agent who did not receive a Numeros codename, some fans theorized that it was him.
  • Characters.Adventure Time Minor It's not exactly made clear how BMO is able to hear Air loud and clear, especially when Finn and Jake can't, nor is it made clear how they got trapped inside the bubble in the first place.
  • Characters.A Song Of Ice And Fire House Arryn: Her inability to bear a healthy child during her marriage to Jon Arryn could have been the result of his old age, or possibly damage done to her reproductive organs when she was tricked into drinking moon tea, or even her descent from the Whent family, who carried the "Harrenhal curse". Do note that every woman who lives in Harrenhal for an extended period of time seems to eventually become barren.
  • Granblue Fantasy Allies: Since the introduction of Helel ben Shalem, who only appears to have one form and no need to disguise herself, it only adds more to the mystery as to why Sahar was given a second form that resembles Lucifer from Rage of Bahamut.
  • Beyblade Burst: It's unclear whether beys are controlled via launch style or by some supernatural means. Season 1 establishes that it's all in the launch form and that they only shout their special moves once they successfully perform it. As the series goes on, it starts getting fuzzy as it doesn't show bladers tilting their launchers or moving differently to affect their movement patterns, but it is shown that a mis-launch still causes malfunctions. When it comes to tag battles, Bladers are shown to have strangely accurate coordination with combined special moves, but still, show they don't have a complete influence on their behavior after the launch when they have to force their bey to aim for the center or tornado ridge.
  • Extreme Carnage: Flash isn't too sure if Peter Krane has been taken over by Carnage, but he's assuming that he has. Agony reveals he's wrong and he figures it out too late: it's his son Arthur.
  • Doctor Who S39 E1: "Flux Chapter One: The Halloween Apocalypse": Ambiguous Situation: Claire's situation. She comes up to the Doctor and Yaz because she already knows them, but they don't know her. She claims they'll meet her in her past, but doesn't seem sure that even that's correct. Then shortly after they leave, she encounters a Weeping Angel (which seems to be hunting down her specifically, and she already knows how they work) and gets zapped away by it. In particular, her line about maybe having met the Doctor and Yaz in the past. The Doctor assumes that Claire meant she is unsure about her own past, but given the kind of show this is, does she mean she has trouble remembering her own past, or is this some form of Time-Travel Tense Trouble?
  • Bless The Harts S 2 E 22 Toni With An I: Does Jenny really talk to Jesus or is she imagining that? So far this show has been ambiguous about that. This episode does not resolve this ambiguity but does provide fodder to argue both positions. When Jenny talks to Jesus in her car, a shot of the parking lot reveals that to outsiders that she's talking to an empty backseat. But at the end, as Violet restores the painting of Jesus, Violet hears Jesus's request for broader shoulders and is visibly surprised.
  • Envy Phantom: Most of what happens in The Third Heart. Why are Yuuhi, Urara and Spica absent? Why does Tomodachi look like the phantom Spicas?
  • Elfen Lied: In the manga, the Diclonii's DNA voice is shown to be an alternate personality that takes control of Lucy, but in the anime, its exact nature is not clear. In the anime, Lucy doesn't mention the voice as the reason for her actions, and when the voice talks to her in the festival scene, one of the bystanders says that Lucy is talking aloud to herself, which implies that she's hallucinating.
  • The Horror at Camp Jellyjam: The ending makes it unclear if Buddy faced federal protection for blindly serving King Jellyjam as well as the whole "enslaving children to serve a giant purple blob". At the least, he has the freedom to come and apologize to the family for endangering Wendy and Elliott.
  • Aladdin (2019): Is the Mariner's story really just a story, or is it an actual telling of Genie's past? Dalia was very specific about her desires to travel the seas on a boat with a son and daughter born 3 years apart with predetermined names. Or perhaps it's both? The audience is never given an answer. At least not in the final cut. A deleted epilogue showed the genie and his kids meeting Aladdin and Jasmine on Agrabah port.
  • Fate/stay night: The Dragon of the Seventh Heaven: In Chapter 7, shortly after Issei informs Tamamo that Asia is dying, Tamamo has a conversation with the Nine. Near the end of the conversation, the Tamamo in charge orders her Shark, Cat and Tamamo-vitch selves to go help the others restrain her. It's unknown who she is referring to, but given that Tamamo is technically a Beast, it's possible she has her other seven aspects working to keep the Beast variant under check.
  • How to Sex Vol. 4–58: While describing the prison cell, Tommy claims that there is "Blood. blood. Blood. So much fucking blood". It is unknown whether the blood is a result of him hallucinating or if it was Dream hurting him even more in prison. Knowing Dream, we wouldn't put it past him to do so.
    Ochokinode: It honestly makes me wonder if Tommy is hallucinating the blood or not? Like, he could be easily hallucinating it, but at the same time it could also totally be real, and that uncertainty is SO FUCKING GOOD.
  • Earwig and the Witch: Contrived Coincidence: The fact that Bella Yaga and Mandrake wound up choosing their old friend and bandmate's daughter out of a literal line-up of children was just one giant coincidence. Maybe.

     Unclear character motivation - 24% 
  • Characters.Castlevania 2017 Draculas Army: It's left ambiguous altogether if Lenore ever actually treated Hector as her Sex Slave, or if she changed her mind or was always bluffing about it in the first place. There is a Time Skip in between Seasons 3 and 4, but it's clearly not that long, and she and Hector have a genuine relationship when we revisit them, with no sexual abuse of him so much as implied and Hector even being comfortable trading innuendos with her in Snark-to-Snark Combat.
  • Ruffled: How much Chickadee knew about Falcon's plot and why she got in the way of his shot is unclear. All we really have are Bluejay's deductions and Falcon's word.

  • Characters.Arrowverse Eobard Thawne: When he broke off his relationship with Eiling, was it (as he claimed) because he disapproved of the cruelty Eiling was showing to Grodd? Or was it simply because he had other plans for the ape?
  • Genshin Impact Celestia: According to Raiden, she had nothing to do with Electro Visions having recently stopped being given out, or at least she doesn't know why, as Celestia is in charge of giving Visions, not the Archons. Why Celestia has done this and what Raiden has done that may have caused them to react in this way is currently unknown.
  • Characters.El Cid 2020 Taifa Of Zaragoza: Didn't Think This Through: Slept with Ruy in Season 1, more or less on the basis that, as a free spirit, she will do what she wishes and damn the consequences. In Season 2, those consequences are: Her brother Mundir trying to assassinate Ruy and possibly wanting her dead too, being locked up in her rooms by order of her father, and eventually her being sent to Castile as a hostage.
  • Characters.Beyond Good And Evil: As with multiple things in the ending, the priest's relationship to the giant, multi-armed humanoid that assists him in fighting Jade is never explained. After the priest is killed, the humanoid figure then somehow helps Jade use her powers to revive all the dead Hyllians in the crypt, suggesting perhaps it wasn't working with the priest of its own will.
  • Characters.Cuties: My God, What Have I Done?: For some reason, when a piece of wedding confetti that was stuck on her hair suddenly falls in front of her, it triggers this reaction from Amy during the dance competition, where she suddenly cries and becomes petrified in the middle of their dance routine, perhaps due to the realization that the audience was booing them or that she had abandoned an important family event just to dance—it's never made clear. As a result, she runs away from the competition altogether to go home.
  • Characters.Friendship Is Magic Cozy Glow: In "The Ending of the End – Part 1", after she absorbs Discord's magic, she tries to turn on the others and rule Equestria by herself. "Tries" because she gets into the awkward position of not being able to control said chaos magic and has to beg them to put it back into Grogar's bell, and it's only the fact that they were more amused by the attempt than anything that they agree. However, it's possible this attempt was a side-effect of the chaos magic messing with her mind.
  • Swamp Thing: Bizarre Alien Psychology: Implied with Technis, the space "island" that you might have heard horrifically commits a mutilation/rape upon Swamp Thing so that she can bear his children. The highly nonchalant manner in which Technis does this — and, some time later, even narrates her perpetration of the act to her unborn offspring in excruciatingly disturbing detail — along with her repeated insistence that she did all of this partly out of profound love for Swamp Thing, suggests that this isn't something she finds unusual or worthy of guilt. (...Maybe. On the other hand, even she herself explicitly (albeit without much emotion) refers to the act as a rape, which, depending upon the reader's mileage, could be a subtle admission of guilt, or just still more evidence of a deeply alien morality.)
  • Adventure Time S 8 E 12 Min And Marty: It's left to the audience's imagination if Martin, who's shown to be an emotionally manipulative Con Man, genuinely fell in love with Minerva or was always using her as a way out of trouble and then later a Meal Ticket.
  • Smile Down the Runway: Toh's "bet" with his grandmother. Toh claims that he's aiming to beat her Geika Fashion Festival record in order to make her acknowledge him as a fashion designer and let him go independent. However, Mai says that those condition is a Self-Imposed Challenge Toh had set for himself, and Mai wants him to go independent regardless.
  • Parasite (2019): While they're rich, they're easily gullible and roped into the Kim's antics precisely because their rich life seems so fake — as shown by the Park mother's implied drug addiction and constant state of sleepiness.
  • My Little Goat: The fact that he's not her first-born Toruku, and that she may or may not have known that from the beginning, is irrelevant to the doting mother - he is already her 'Toruku'.
  • Wrong Turn (2021): Poor Communication Kills: Possibly. If the hunter's account at "trial" is true, the Foundation wasn't trying to abduct Adam, but rather rescue him from one of their game traps without him knowing what happened.
  • Black Christmas (2006): A sex tape of Kyle and Megan is found on the internet, Kyle claiming someone stole it and uploaded it to get back at him. It's never made clear if Megan knew she was being filmed and whether her reaction to the video is it existing at all or the fact that it's been put on the internet.
  • X-Men: The Trial of Magneto: Issue #5 reveals that Toad takes the blame for Wanda's murder, but exactly why is left unclear.
  • Real-Time Fandub: The background music for said event is... an orchestral rendition of "There Goes Hawaii". This could also be the reason why Alfred went into disbelief.

     Unclear character identity - 13% 
  • Bakuten Shoot Beyblade Tertiary: The dub is clear that the bladers have become monsters as a result of their loss and subsequent deal with dark powers. The original version, however, never claims their monsterhood is due to the deal. This matches with the flashback visuals that show no difference between before and after. What they explicitly got out of the deal are bit-beast and supernatural powers in return for their souls. Any reference to their fate thereafter is vague and seems to refer to their obsessive hatred and soullessness. What with the world of beyblading hosting animal people, perfect androids, and other unusual people, there's no reason monsters can't exist either.
  • Hitman 2 Elusive Targets: How he keeps coming back after being killed more than two dozen confirmed times is never explained. In a series where cloning technology is an integral part of the storyline, it could be as simple as there actually being multiple clones of Faba as a Mythology Gag. The fact that his deaths were listed as confirmed, as well as his in-game dialogue describing the things he's survived, implies a combination of Super Toughness and the use of body doubles
  • Characters.Final Fantasy IX: It is either an Eidolon that never truly formed or an Eidolon that's so old that no one remembers what it looks like. Given the nature of summons in this game, if an Eidolon is forgotten, it's original appearance is destroyed. Now it's just a ball of (seemingly) mindless energy.
  • Characters.Dragon Age Recurring Non Playable Characters: She states lightly that she may not be an old woman but instead an actual dragon, and hints to Merrill that there is more to know about who she is than just Flemeth. This and some other implications suggest she might very well be a dragon or even an Old God, if you remember that Morrigan learned the ritual from her in the first place and her statements at the end of Witch Hunt. Yet everything about her is completely ambiguous, and by the end of the second game you still don't really know what's up with her.
  • Characters.Inazuman: Are Neo-Humans the same as mutants, mutant humans who've been cybernetically modified or a separate species entirely?
  • Recap.Arrow S 7 E 5 The Demon: Talia's "old adversary" in Gotham goes unnamed, raising the question of who exactly she tangled with; Batman, who's been implied to exist on Earth-1 (Oliver having name-dropped Bruce Wayne in season six), Batwoman, who's been confirmed to appear in the Elseworlds crossover, or some other member of the Batfamily?
  • Trojan Odyssey: Pitt and Giordino believe Rathbone to be a disguised Odyssey agent, but his physical description doesn't clearly imply it. For instance, he is described as being sweating by his head, something that shouldn't be visible under a latex mask, and his dialogue lines reveal a lot of true information for someone that should be trying to misinform strangers. Still, the fact that he is an obese guy in a white suit echoes Specter himself, whose fatness is meant to be a comfortable disguise for a curvy woman, thus implying Rathbone is another Odyssey woman in disguise.
  • NightmareFuel.Kirby: Morpho Knight, who is possibly Galacta Knight… except even more powerful, as a result of him getting killed by a mystical butterfly.
  • Son of Saul: It's hard to tell whether the boy is truly Saul's son, Saul's mind is breaking down from the horrible situation he's in, or it's metaphor.
  • Quarter-Life: Halfway To Destruction: The identity of the character that said "Not so fast Mr. Gordon." is never stated, nor is the purpose of them halting Gordon.

     Unclear backstory/off-screen moment - 17% 
  • Granbelm: ...being cursed not to age as well as having lost her mother to a family takeover that either erased her memory or made her pretend it had to protect her children.
  • Miss Hokusai: Ultimately the tale of O-Ei is one of these. The daughter of one of the most famous artists of all time who both assisted him in his work and was a phenomenal artist in her own right is barely in the history books despite the fact she worked with her father until his death. Whether this was a case of overt oppression due to her gender, or if she was simply Vicariously Ambitious and did not care too much about making a name for herself over helping her father isn't known. Fittingly, the film doesn't really give much insight into O-Ei's exact feelings over her father, as she seems to teeter between annoyance and fondness.
  • Characters.A Song Of Ice And Fire House Targaryen Ancestors: Claims to have attacked Maegor with a hidden knife, although there's no way to know for sure since she told this story years after Maegor's death.
  • A Student Out Of Time Main Series Cast: In the Clouds Pass Arc, she gives Tsurugi and Kohei a USB that contains vital information regarding the past events involving Kasugano along with the names of important figures. There's no clues as to how she obtained this information or what her endgame is.
  • Characters.Alien Main: The specifics on how the Xenomorphs came to be are shrouded in mystery.
  • Characters.Arrowverse Eobard Thawne: Good luck trying to figure out where in the timeline Thawne found the time to go to Earth-X. Given the way he talks, it may not have even happened yet from Barry's perspective.
  • Characters.Harry Potter Other Canon Humans Witches And Wizards: Since King Arthur lived at least couple centuries before Hogwarts was founded, it's unclear if Merlin attending Hogwarts is a case of Artistic Licence or whether he came to Hogwarts after Camelot.
  • Saki Sanobashi: In most versions of the story, no explanation is given as to why the girls are stuck in the bathroom, and the girls often are described as discussing whether they'll ever escape or not.
  • Characters.American Gods 2017 Other Deities And Mythical Figures: It's stated repeatedly that the gods (Old or New) need at the very least to be remembered in order to not fade from existence and at the most to receive prayers to have any type of power. Yet it's implied that he's been around since prehistoric times, despite similar beings such as Nunyunnini ceasing to exist all together. It's also not clear if he's on the side of the Old Gods, the New, or so old that he's simply indifferent to the whole conflict.
  • Batman: The Black Mirror: It's unclear what exactly created James Junior's mental problems: brain damage from the fall during Batman: Year One, a genetic defect, or Gotham itself.
  • Adventure Time: Season 11: Anything related to Future Bubblegum is a complete mystery since Future Marceline doesn't remember anything about her thanks to her memory loss. Averted by Issue 4 when Future PB returns from a century long trip to find out what was wrong with BMO.
  • Red Room: It's never confirmed whether or not Stephen willingly got himself possessed or if it was an accident. Derek is certain that he did it on purpose, but everyone else involved in the case disagrees with him, and Stephen himself takes the answer to the grave
  • How To Raise A Boring Girlfriend: The finale leaves it ambiguous whether or not Eriri and Utaha went to Osaka to work in the new Fields Chronicle game, given that they took too long in saying their goodbyes to Tomoya that they lost their train to Osaka. The next scene flash-forwards to the beginning of the new school year, making the whole ordeal superfluous in hindsight.

     Misuse/wrong trope - 12% 

     Unclear/ZCE - 9% 

Edited by GastonRabbit on Sep 25th 2022 at 7:35:02 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#108: Sep 25th 2022 at 5:36:54 PM

Turning the clock back on to see if anything's left now that the supertrope status has been implemented.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#109: Sep 25th 2022 at 5:38:38 PM

I discussed this with the other mods and I think we can close this.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
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Trope Repair Shop: Ambiguous Situation
24th May '22 12:47:21 PM

Crown Description:

What should be done with Ambiguous Situation?

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