Needs Help: Pivotal Boss

I'm making Pivotal Enemy TLP, (EDIT: which has been nuked, but not by me) and this comment made me think:

I'm arguing that the "boss arena" part of the trope is not really part of Pivotal Boss, and instead just a consequence of being a boss and needing to keep the player from running away, with placement in the center also just to keep the player's options open or something.

A.k.a Redefine Pivotal Boss as "Stationary Boss That Turns", or merge into Stationary Boss.

If the "The player character will have to run about the arena" is the reason for the arena, then I'm saying that's either chairs, in that "No Constant Safe Zones" is expected for a boss arena, or Necessary Weasel where "Constant Safe Zone" is the trope that should be made.

Just checked all 69 wicks.

Should likely check the page's entries too, which number around 76, and most seem to have not enough context.

But this is just a Related check.

The biggest categories is ZCE, and Stationary Boss-ish, at 14 and 13 wicks, respectively.

Valid or changed:

Invalid or unchecked:

Edited by Malady on Oct 5th 2021 at 3:10:16 AM

Opening.

Hmm... I have two thoughts:

First, are there bosses in which the centrality of the boss has narrative purpose? And if so, is that common enough to trope?

And second, and conversely, does turning add enough to a boss-encounter that it's all that distinct from a normal Stationary Boss? Can this perhaps just be folded into Stationary Boss with a comment that some such rotate?

And I just noticed that Pivotal Enemy TLP has been nuked... I guess the result of this thread will determine whether to revive it or not...

From what I see, Pivotal Boss is a Stationary Boss is in the middle of a circular area, which is common in 2.5D and 3D platformers. The examples I'm aware of, there are Torkdrift from Super Mario Odyssey, Wilbur from Shantae: Half-Genie Hero and Chilli Billi/Chilly Willy from Banjo-Tooie. It's simply a type of boss design, akin to Broken Armor Boss Battle, Duel Boss, Puzzle Boss, etc.

My personal opinion: Pivotal Boss is a noteworthy design, because not every Stationary Boss is fought in a circular area, especially when it comes to 2.5D platformers, though I won't object to it being merged into a sub-type of Stationary Boss. Pivotal Enemy is just "Stationary Enemy that turns around", which in itself is just People Sit on Chairs, because turning around is not something that Stationary Enemy is forbidden from doing.

Edited by I--Vanya--I on Mar 22nd 2021 at 6:49:45 PM

There are a lot of bosses in general, that are fought in circles, though? Circle Arena is not a Pivotal Boss thing? Like, IIRC, it fits all Super Mario Odyssey bosses? ... Most Gladiator Games pits... Other things?

Edited by Malady on Mar 22nd 2021 at 9:02:44 AM

While there is quite a number of Stationary Bosses in Super Mario Odyssey, not every boss there is a Pivotal Boss. What makes Torkdrift unique when compared to them is that he stays in the middle of the arena for the entire fight, and Mario has to walk around it in circles, in a way that is a bit reminiscent of 2.5D platformers, to strike his weak points to make him vulnerable.

Also, a circular arena is not a requirement for Stationary Boss. Whispy Woods from Kirby series is, in most cases, a Stationary Boss, being an immobile tree, but he's not a Pivotal Boss, because Kirby fights him in 2D arena while always standing in front of him (however, his boss fight in Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards is a Pivotal Boss, as he's fought in a circular arena in the 2.5D game and always remains in the middle).

I can also list an example of a Stationary Boss from a 3D game who is fought in a circular area, but is not the Pivotal Boss: Ruined Dragon, also from Super Mario Odyssey. His arena is circular, but he's not in the middle. He always stays at the side of the arena, and Mario does not walk circles around him in the arena that is set up for him to do that.

Thinking about it further, it does seem to me now that the experience of dealing with a stationary, rotating boss placed centrally is different to the experience of dealing with a non-stationary boss, or a stationary one that isn't central, etc. There's that element of likely moving around them in response to their rotation.

So, while I remain uncertain, I think that I can perhaps see Pivotal Boss working as a distinct trope.

- Something about how it constrains movement in a consistent way... the rotation provides a constant threat, unlike if it's got a fixed direction, etc.

So, I think most people agree that Pivotal Boss is an important distinction, but aren't sure of what it's requirements are.

It must be stationary. But must it be central in the arena?

If the arena shape must be a circle... I'm wondering if the name should change to make that clearer...

If we can't define one trope, then we could split this into multiple and disperse the examples between them. Edge Boss, Central Boss, Circle Arena, etc.

Edited by Malady on Apr 10th 2021 at 11:16:08 AM

I personally believe that a boss is required to be in the middle of the arena, given that there is quite a number of examples who fall under this description (again, I already listed the examples above).

But if that requirement would be removed and a new name would be required, then I would prefer the name Circular Boss Arena.

But in my opinion, the perfect solution would be making a soft split; a trope would encompass both "a Stationary Boss of a full-fledged 3D game is primarily in the middle of the arena" and "a 2.5D boss is fought in the circular arena".

I don't see them as being different enough to warrant a split. I say keep as-is.

I can get behind a name change, however, as my first thought upon seeing Pivotal Boss was that it was a trope similar to Climax Boss.

Edited by AGuy on Apr 10th 2021 at 1:08:19 PM

Central Rotating Boss?

Edited by underCoverSailsman on Apr 10th 2021 at 12:14:45 PM

That's also a good suggestion.

"Axial Boss", perhaps? Suggesting, I hope, all of: A central position; rotation; and a circular surround.

Hmm... I'm not sure that, in the case of a boss not being central and fixed, the shape of the arena is all that relevant. It affects gameplay, of course—but so do other arena-shapes; I don't think that a circular arena is all that special in this case.

In the case of a 2.5D, fixed, rotating boss being located in a circular arena, we just have the standard "Pivotal Boss" trope, I feel.

Edited by ArsThaumaturgis on Apr 11th 2021 at 2:36:02 PM

Circular Combat... Or something like that alliteration might be good?

Combatting Bosses Circularly? Sounds weird.

I guess we should make a title crowner?

- I'm not sure that all names are equal enough to warrant a crowner. Which do you think are the best?

The real issue is if a circular arena should be split out from this... Otherwise the only valid names are the ones with Boss in it.

Like:

• Axial Boss
• Central Boss
• Central Rotating Boss
• Circular Boss Arena
• Combatting Bosses Circularly

Edited by Malady on Apr 30th 2021 at 6:12:01 AM

I'm inclined to remain opposed to a separate trope for circular arenas: It seems to me that, by itself alone, the circular arena isn't especially significant when compared to other arena-shapes.

Agreed.

Axial Boss sounds good.

Yeah, I'd say that Axial Boss is a fine name.

Do we mean axises, or axles?

Or if we want things that are spun around, maybe Spindle?

And it's "Circular Arena Boss that the player circles around to fight"?