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Misused: Oedipus Complex

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Right now Oedipus Complex is heavily misused as basically a duplicate of Incest Subtext and Like Parent, Like Spouse.

The minimum useful definition is that it's a triangular thing between a child and both parents. Less than half of examples mention both parents.

The current page's actual definition is even stricter than that:

The son must supplant the patriarch or must extricate himself from his father's shadow and find his own place in the world. Much of the time this presents as the son's aim of removing his father to further himself in the eyes of his mother — not necessarily, but maybe, into her bed.

     Wick check 
Sandbox.Oedipus Complex Wick Check

  • Scenario involves both parents, and liking one but disliking the other (although not necessarily supplanting): 14/56 = 25%
  • Only one parent mentioned, Incest Subtext or Like Parent, Like Spouse: 25/56 = 45%
  • Shout-Out mentions of Oedipus: 1/56 = 2%
  • Zero-context: 16/56 = 28%

Note that (while not included among the 56 wicks) during the check I found that many (if not most) of the total wicks I saw were potholes, used in a jokey way, rather than a actual listings with any sort of explanation.

     Quote check 
I know this isn't a thing, but I feel it's illustrative of the flippant way the concept is used. In Quotes.Oedipus Complex:

  • 7/10 are Shout-Out, joke mentions of the concept
  • 1/10 is about the history of Freud
  • 2/10 are substantive (Hair the Color of Saffron and Psycho)

The quotes are similar to the pothole use. It's not substantive; it's a gag.

The options I see are:

  1. Change the meaning to a classic sort of triangle-between-a-child-and-both-parents type definition about closeness to one parent and antagonism toward the other.
  2. Stick with the page's current meaning of supplanting a parent, but rename it. That definition is simply not what most people associate with the phrase "Oedipus Complex", pairing them together just invites misuse.

Wick check:

As a note, many-if-not-most wicks (not the ones listed here) are potholes, rather than their own listing with any sort of explanation.

    Both parents mentioned (14) 
  1. Abel: Abel at times competes with his father for the attention of his mother.
  2. Conspiracy (2001): Kritzinger relates a story to Heydrich about an old friend of Kritzinger who hated his abusive father but loved his doting mother. To the friend's surprise his mother's death didn't affect him all that much, but his father's death made him cry uncontrollably. The tragedy was that the son's hatred for his father became more important to him than his mother's love, turning him into an empty shell after the man's death.
  3. Crooked House: Philip and Roger both harbour a deep resentment towards their father Aristide, and wish to supplant him as head of the family. For his part, Aristide took a great pleasure in keeping his sons solidly under his thumb. To add to the mix, Philip's son Eustace admits to having the hots for his step-grandmother.
  4. Funeral Parade of Roses: Yup. Eddie kills her mother, and has sex with her father. Although Eddie doesn't know who Gondo is, she clearly has some possessive feelings about her mom, as part of her whole messed-up persona.
  5. Human Nature: Puff grows up in the lab calling Nathan "father" and Gabrielle "mother." He plots to murder the former and bed the latter.
  6. Only God Forgives: Big time. There's some serious sexual tension between Crystal and Julian right from her first arrival, which is made overt when she starts caressing his bicep. In a later scene, she talks about the comparative penis sizes of her two sons. To top it off, we learn that Julian killed his father.
  7. The Master: Heavily implied with Freddie, who tells an Army psychologist that he had a dream involving his mother and father but refuses to divulge what happens in it, and tries to poison a fellow farm worker whom he claims looks like his father.
  8. The Squid and the Whale: Frank hates his father and is very attached to his mother, which disturbingly shades into sexual attraction. Inverted with Walt, who hates his mother and is very loyal to his father — until his father becomes his sexual rival for Lili.
  9. Thor: The Dark World: Loki genuinely loves his mother, and overthrows his father — whom he now loathes after being disowned and nearly executed — usurping the Asgardian throne in the process.
  10. We Need to Talk About Kevin: Kevin couples an unnerving obsession with his mother with absolute contempt for his father (who is so oblivious to his son's antipathy that it skirts Unknown Rival territory). Kevin has a peculiar habit of making sure his mother knows (and hears, and as far as possible sees) when he's getting to grips with himself — she feels like she's being sexually harassed by him. He's always had a special connection with Eva — she's somewhat pleased that her son shows his true personality to her, but never to his father. Alarmingly, Kevin actually succeeds in living out the desire at the centre of the Oedipus complex (albeit without the sexual part): removing his father so that he has his mother all to himself. The ending strongly implies that Kevin will move back in with Eva when he's released.
  11. Literature.Back To The Future: Seemingly played straight, hilariously (and weirdly) enough. Marty continually insults his father, calling him a nerd every chance he gets (B to the F goes as far as to use the phrase "nerd racist"), and hating him for his severe lack of a spine. While he does insult his mom as well, and expresses disbelief at Doc's creepy "She hasn't given birth to you yet, so it's O.K. to get down and dirty with her" comments, during the actual make-out scene with her, he seriously gets into it. The movie, on the other hand, falls on the side of inversion. Ahhh, the things that change when you script doctor a movie...
  12. Hayley Powell Food and Cocktails Mysteries: In book 1 (Death of a Kitchen Diva), while meeting with Bradley Applebaum, Hayley gets the definite uncomfortable feeling that he's got one of these with his late mother, even mentally describing the "oedipal undertones" in his voice when he talks about her (and that he seems to be transferring them to her), while he clearly doesn't trust his father and sees him as a rival for Karen's affections.
  13. Masters of Rome: Part of Servilia's Troubling Unchildlike Behavior involves her idolization of her father Caepio and contempt for her mother Livia.
    Servilia: Tata, if you won't kill her, leave her here! She's not good enough for you! She doesn't deserve you! Who is she, after all? Only a plebeian—not patrician like you and me! If you leave her here, I'll look after you, I promise!
  14. 1Q84: Tengo struggles with his father, and convinces himself that the man is not his biological father. Tengo overcomes his father by reading to him, while he is in a coma. (Taking on a role-reversal of sorts, but also allowing Tengo to self-reflect, almost at his father's expense). In the same place, the town of cats, Tengo spends the night with one of the nurses, Kumi Adachi. He does not sleep with her, but he smokes hash with her and has a vivid memory of her luxuriant pubic hair (a sign of maturity). Later on after Tengo's father passes away, it is hinted that Kumi may be the reincarnation of Tengo's mother, though Tengo himself never comes close to making this connection.

    Incest Subtext or Like Parent Like Spouse (25) 
  1. Enter the Void: It's heavily implied that Oscar has wanted to bed his mother since childhood and his father doesn't figure much into his trips to the past unless he's right next to or having sex with his mother.
  2. Fifty Shades of Grey: While defining that he's a sadist and not a dominant, Christian admits he gets sexually aroused from punishing women...who resemble his dead mother. Not surprised, considering that almost all his former submissive lovers resemble his mother vaguely in looks. Also his Freudian Excuse.
  3. Identity: Rivers's mother was a prostitute, and one of his personalities is as well - and most of the male characters find her very appealing.
  4. Jupiter Ascending: The driving force of the movie is the conflict between the Abrasax siblings and Jupiter, the genetic recurrence of their mother. While the Abrasax patriarch is never mentioned or seen, the two Abrasax brothers definitely have an unhealthy interest in their mother.
  5. Leave Her to Heaven: Mrs. Brent bluntly snaps that Ellen monopolized her father so much that "it's a wonder she didn't sleep with him!" She later falls for Richard because of his resemblance to him.
  6. Mona Lisa Smile: Giselle's father left his family, and it's implied that is the reason why she seeks sleeps mostly with older men.
  7. Mortdecai: Combined with Screw Yourself, Krampf wants the Goya because it reminds him of his mother who he believes he takes after in terms of looks. The subject of the painting is, incidentally, naked.
  8. Silent Night Deadly Night 5 The Toymaker: Pino appears to have a creepy obsession with Sarah. He addresses her as "Mommy", despite her not being his mother, and starts dry humping her in the climax while saying that he loves her and wants her.
  9. Sleepy Hollow (1999): Ichabod falls like a brick for the cute witch Katrina. His mother was "an innocent child of nature" "condemned, murdered to save her soul" by his father, a "Bible-black tyrant hiding behind a mask of righteousness." That won't happen again. Ichabod is a Man of Reason who rejects the intolerance of the Church and honors the gentle Katrina for her compassion.
  10. Sliver: Naomi and Carly bear a strong resemblance to Zeke's mother, offering a pretty creepy explanation for his attraction to them.
  11. Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines: After Kate destroys an Aerial HK drone with an assault rifle, a visibly attracted John stares at her in awed silence.
    Kate: What?
    John: Nothing. [Beat] You remind me of my mother.
  12. The Addams Family
    • In Values, Gomez pulls out a magazine from Fester's bed, opens to one of the centerfolds, and the two fondly say "Mom!".
    • The relationship between the amnesiac Fester and his "mother" in the first movie has shades of this. In the script, it was a lot less subtle.
  13. The Damned (1969): Martin's creepily close relationship with Sophie. And it's only the first of his (many, many) issues. (also ZCE)
  14. The Killing Kind: Thelma and Terry seem to share more than standard mother-son love.
  15. The Machinist: Very subtle example, but it's hinted that Trevor had a somewhat complicated relationship with his mother.
  16. The Naked Gun: Played for laughs as Frank's internal monologue describes Jane as an alluring goddess when he meets her, only to end with noting that she reminds him of his mother. Then when the captain sees Frank's face he tells him to wipe that look off his face as it looks like he just saw his mother.
  17. The Phantom of the Opera (2004): Gerard Butler was deliberately cast to resemble Ramin Karimloo, who played Christine's father, and later, played Raoul and the Phantom on West End as well.
  18. The Woman Chaser: Hudson's glowing description of his mother's fading charms, and the intentionally cringy scene, with purple narration, where he dances with her ("I chased. I persued. Made impossible leaps and came down as lightly as a wafted cigarette paper") all while his stepfather watches places him firmly in oedipal territory.
  19. Everland: Hook mentions several times how beautiful the Professor is despite the fact she's old enough to be his mother and even offers her the chance to join him in ruling the world. He does lampshade it in his inner monologue that he's got issues with his own mother that are causing this to manifest itself.
  20. Job: A Comedy of Justice: Patricia claims that there are a lot of "motherhumpers" that wind up in Hell, many of her johns requesting to take on the form of their mothers (or at least some of their characteristics to act out whatever incestuous urges they were unable to act upon in life.
  21. Lives of the Saints: Downplayed, but in many instances where Vittorio is alone with his mother, he describes her quite erotically...
  22. Nightmare Alley: Lilith states that Stan is suffering from this, and it's even implied that she may not be far from the truth. When he was a child he witnessed his mother having sex with another man who wasn't his father, an event he often flashes back to, and it's stated that his mother used to spray perfume on her pillow. When he first meets Lilith, he gets a whiff of her perfume and instantly feels shame but is also immediately sexually attracted to her. This is the first of many subtextual inferences that Lilith, a woman that Stan becomes sexually infatuated with, reminds him in some ways of his mother who abandoned him as a child.
  23. On Stranger Tides: Leo Friend. While attempting to rape Beth Hurwood (albeit falingly so) Leo Friend, with newfound powers and an apparent lack of mastery over them, accidentally and briefly turns Beth into his mother which while saying "mommy, oh mommy" repeatedly and in an increasingly pathetic tone. This, in turn, causes Beth to vomit, which is exactly the reaction his mother had when he made sexual advances on her.
  24. Phantom: Erik's relationship with his mother is pretty twisted; then he goes and falls madly, passionately and irrevocably in love with Christine - who happens, by pure coincidence, to resemble Madeline exactly. Huh.
  25. Red Dwarf: Rimmer's second wife in his Better Than Life fantasy is a de-aged version of his own mother. He's horribly Squicked out by it once he works it out.

    Shout Out mentions of Oedipus (1) 
  1. Analyze This
    Dr Sobel: Oedipus is a Greek story about a man who kills his father and marries his mother.
    Vitti: Fucking Greeks.

    Administrivia/Zero Context Example (16) 
Although note that any example that includes only 2 names defacto is doing it wrong, because the trope is a 3-chapter dynamic.

  1. Blue Velvet: Frank seems to have a very weird one.
  2. Confessions: Shuya toward his mother. He takes this so seriously that it’s not even funny.
  3. Eve's Bayou: Cisely toward her father Louis. Maybe.
  4. Hitchcock: Oedipus Complex: Noted by many male characters brought into the Psycho production.
  5. Sleepwalkers: Charles, greatly for his mother.
  6. The Magnificent Ambersons: Isabel and George ALL. DAY. LONG.
  7. Until the End of the World: It's easy to interpret Trevor McPhee/Sam Farber as having a bad case of this.
  8. Yeelen: The entire catalyst for the plot.
  9. Ariel (Plath): The poem "Daddy" is from the perspective of a woman with an Electra Complex.
  10. Dangerous Spirits: Konstantin's conflict with his son had a significant impact on him and greatly colors his interactions with Alexei.
  11. Fate of the Jedi: Several fans see shades of this in Ben, regarding his relationship with Vestara.
  12. Garden of Shadows: Malcolm to his mother Corinne.
  13. Infinite Jest: Orin's relationship with his mother is... not good.
  14. Lady Susan: Gender Flipped with Frederica's and Lady Susan's rivalry over Reginald de Courcy.
  15. Our Dumb Century: "Eisenhower Warns of Military-Industrial-Oedipal Complex"
  16. Rant: This does not even begin to describe Green Taylor Simm's problems.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 26th 2023 at 3:55:58 AM

Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#76: Jan 29th 2023 at 7:10:29 PM

As Child Supplants Parent examples come in, I'm starting to see a couple things that I think we should to add to the page, but which I'd like to discuss before adding:

  • This is a gendered trope about sons and their fathers. Yes, there are counter-examples, and no, I don't think we need a distaff counterpart to cover those. But I think it's disingenuous to pretend it's not overwhelmingly about sons and their fathers.
  • The trope this most overlaps with is Patricide, and we should probably check there for examples. While not every example of patricide is motivated by a desire to supplant the father, it certainly is the Exaggerated Trope form of Child Supplants Parent.
  • A lot of the sons in these examples seem to see overthrowing their fathers as a Rite of Passage. (Maybe a Klingon Promotion: to become the man, you must kill the man?)

Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#77: Jan 29th 2023 at 7:15:18 PM

"This is a gendered trope"

We've agreed that it's not.

"The trope this most overlaps with is Patricide, and we should probably check there"

Feel free to check, but I don't believe Child Supplants Parent and Patricide are conceptually related, only that one can be one of the motives for another.

"Rite of Passage"

One possible motivation and isn't universal.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#78: Jan 29th 2023 at 8:58:50 PM

The description of Child Supplants Parent was decided on before examples of the trope were gathered. Now that examples are beginning to come in, I'm noticing that the trope as it actually appears in stories has some features that didn't come up before.

This is a normal process, it happens all the time at Trope Launch Pad. The initial conceptualization of a trope is usually a little bare—it makes sense that it would be. Then, as more examples are added, you can see, "Oh, I didn't think about Thing X before, but it keeps showing up in these examples. It's a common pattern in the trope. That should be mentioned on the page."

For Child Supplants Parent, it's still early. The small number of examples we have yet may not be a representative cross-sample of this trope's overall usage. (For instance, the current examples are moved over from "Oedipus Complex", a phase associated with patricide, so likely these examples are more murderous than average.) I'm happy to put a pin in this and wait until we have more examples.

(To get get some examples that aren't ex-Oedipus Complex, could we use the Trope Launch Pad or some other forum to show people this trope?)

But — once we do have more — I think we need to look at how the trope actually appears in stories, and work on writing a description that's in alignment with that.

Amonimus the Retromancer from <<|Wiki Talk|>> (Sergeant) Relationship Status: In another castle
the Retromancer
#79: Jan 29th 2023 at 9:04:39 PM

[up] I'm sorry, but I have no idea what are you on about. The rewrite has already occurred with expended scope, we only need to rename these wicks (or moved to UsefulNotes.Oedipus Complex if the example is about the actual diagnosis) and close.

TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#80: Jan 30th 2023 at 3:46:39 AM

[up]This, and on-page examples might need to be cleaned as well if that hasn't been done already.

Let's drop this discussion about what the trope means since we've already decided on that. We need to focus on cleaning it up because the decision-making phase ended already.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 30th 2023 at 5:47:20 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#81: Feb 12th 2023 at 10:13:26 PM

I don't think the Child Supplants Parent trope is good enough by usual new trope standard. There aren't enough examples (it's in the single digits). The write-up is insufficient, and not in sync with the examples it does have.

If this was being made by way of TLP, it wouldn't be allowed to launch like this. I would like to create a TLP page for it retroactively, in order to get the help that usual new tropes get. Is that allowed? If not, is there somewhere else it could be taken for help getting examples and refining what the overarching themes that connect said examples are?

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#82: Feb 13th 2023 at 4:22:31 AM

There aren't enough examples (it's in the single digits).

Well, it's hard for Child Supplants Parent to have very many examples if people aren't moving good examples from the old Main.Oedipus Complex name (and its Main.Electra Complex redirect) while in the process of removing the bad examples that are listed under the old names, as well as crosswicking good examples so the main trope page is more fleshed-out. As for whether people have been doing that, the text saying "Found in 987 articles, excluding discussions." has me leaning toward thinking people haven't been doing the necessary work. If you want to do something about this, This Is a Wiki. Actually sorting through the examples is more productive than simply talking about it.

The write-up is insufficient, and not in sync with the examples it does have.

If the description needs work, then once again, This Is a Wiki. Changes can still be made if necessary.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 13th 2023 at 6:29:13 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#83: Feb 15th 2023 at 12:14:44 AM

[up]If lack of wicks is a problem, we could just do what we did with Bald Of Awesome / Bald of Authority. Bald of Authority was in TLP while dewicking of Bald Of Awesome took place and all good examples were added to the draft. Once Bald Of Awesome was done and the thread was closed, I finalized Bald of Authority and launched it soon after.

Edited by amathieu13 on Feb 15th 2023 at 3:15:03 PM

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#84: Feb 15th 2023 at 2:28:22 AM

[up]Emphasis on if it's a problem, because first we should see how many wicks Main.Child Supplants Parent has after Main.Oedipus Complex's wicks have been sorted through. If we end up having to torch most of the latter's wicks instead of moving them to the former, then a TLP example drive would be fine.

I'm pretty sure Funny Fan Voice had a TLP example drive after TRS renamed it from Breathe on the Fan (which had to have most of its examples removed, but I don't think it had very many wicks to begin with, in contrast to how Main.Oedipus Complex has just under a thousand wicks), but I'm not sure if it was technically unlaunched while that was happening (I didn't keep track of the TLP draft. Doing that with Child Supplants Parent (again, if there still aren't very many wicks after wick cleanup for Main.Oedipus Complex is done) would be possible if it ends up being necessary.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 15th 2023 at 4:29:13 AM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Eievie Since: Feb, 2014
#85: Feb 16th 2023 at 7:26:49 PM

There may be some more examples in the Oedipus Complex wicks. But I still think that the majority of examples of Child Supplants Parent will not be listed there because the whole point was that almost no one drew any association between that phase and this concept. I'd like to use TLP (or some other forum, if another one is deemed more appropriate) to show this idea to more people to help crowdsource more examples.

Edited by Eievie on Feb 16th 2023 at 7:28:20 AM

GastonRabbit MOD Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#86: Feb 17th 2023 at 12:08:15 AM

[up]Fair enough. Go ahead and start up a Child Supplants Parent draft if it's necessary to make the page workable. That can be worked on side-by-side with cleaning up the wicks for Main.Oedipus Complex, similarly to what amathieu did with working on the draft for Bald of Authority while TRS was cleaning up Bald Of Awesome. (In that case, Bald of Authority didn't launch until after Bald Of Awesome was fully dewicked; I suppose that approach could be taken with the Child Supplants Parent draft when dewicking Main.Oedipus Complex.)

Edit: Here's the Bald of Awesome TRS thread for reference regarding how things were done with retooling Bald Of Awesome into Bald of Authority, since you're wanting to do pretty much the same thing by salvaging Child Supplants Parent from Main.Oedipus Complex.

Edit: Put on the mod hat with this post to indicate that permission was given to start an example drive on TLP.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 17th 2023 at 2:12:48 PM

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Berrenta How sweet it is from Texas Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
How sweet it is
#87: Apr 13th 2023 at 12:27:42 PM

Checking in. We still have 934 wicks that need to be moved/removed.

she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope Report
themayorofsimpleton Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him from Elsewhere (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Abstaining
Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
#88: Jun 21st 2023 at 12:29:24 PM

Started working on this and gave up because I think I screwed some wicks up. Main is done for Oedipus Complex. 784 left.

Edited by themayorofsimpleton on Jun 21st 2023 at 3:31:14 PM

TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper Wall
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
amathieu13 Since: Aug, 2013
#92: Sep 2nd 2023 at 7:56:54 AM

50 left, all on character pages, but it's bedtime for me

GastonRabbit Sounds good on paper (he/him) from Robinson, Illinois, USA (General of TV Troops) Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
#93: Sep 2nd 2023 at 5:02:07 PM

amathieu and I got the rest, so locking.

Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Add Post

Trope Repair Shop: Oedipus Complex
12th Jan '23 3:50:01 AM

Crown Description:

Consensus was to do a Trope Transplant by moving the current definition to another name, and reuse the Oedipus Complex name for a page based on the actual psychological term; move the page that will use the name Oedipus Complex (but not the page the current definition will be moved to) to Useful Notes (not mutually exclusive with disambiguating, which would result in the list of other pages being listed after the definition); and expand the current definition to gender-neutral version of a child trying to supplunt a parent's role in the family. What should the trope's new name be?

Total posts: 93
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