Discussion Main / NoYay

Because one fan's trash is another fan's pleasure. Rule36.

I trimmed a little bit, though I haven't played many of the games in question...

• Before Apollo Justice: Ace Attorney was released, there were many, many Apollo x Trucy Shippers, due to their Lawyer-Sidekick relationship. Most of them, thankfully, vanished from the face of the internet soon after the game actually came out for a very simple reason: Apollo first turns out to be an orphan. And next he turns out to be, yes, you guessed it, Trucy's long lost half-brother and the second of the last two Gramayres.

Eh, that's just Incest Yay, and kind of a weak example at that.

• No Yay is the entire point of the game. Every character in the game wants to abuse Fiona, whether because they want to impregnate her, take out her uterus to have for themselves, or use her as a new doll. You can't spell Haunting Ground without Rape.

Following up a list of all the No Yay's with "yeah, all of the above" is kinda redundant. :P

• A general rule of the series seems to be that the success of a game is directly proportional to the amount of horrifying potential pairings. For example in the second game, the most critically acclaimed and popular of the series, the protagonist has subtext and text with the supernatural executioner sent to torture him (mentioned above), a figment of his severely broken imagination, a mentally shattered teenage victim of Parental Incest (which is this trope in and of itself) and the resurrected corpse of his wife Mary, whom he murdered.

That is really, really long just to be a recap of the stuff above it. Plus, Pyramid Head's already listed, and the rest of it's just, I dunno, too lackluster. Nothing seems inherently squicky about shipping Angela and James, or Maria and James (and they do have an ending as a couple, so that's not really subtext), or James and his wife (at first I thought the entry meant Maria, but apparently it's talking about the Pet Sematary'esque resurrection ending - but since we never saw how that went, we can't really say if it'd be squicky. Necromantic is a pretty common trope, and calling an instance of trying to bring back a dead loved one No Yay is a little too broad).

Sweet! You rock. I can't believe how much better this page is now.

(Edit by BritBllt: Ack, I pushed the wrong button! >_< Ignore me, replying below!)

Thanks! I moved these two here as well...

• Monk/Stottlemeyer. The episode "Mr. Monk and the Captain's Marriage" did not help at all.

They're just the names, so some elaboration might be in order.

• The first season finale of Dollhouse unsettled more than a few tropers with it's rather blatant Alpha/Echo subtext.

While it is squicky, it's not really subtext so much as an I Have You Now, My Pretty plot. Alpha flat-out abducted Echo to Mind Rape her into becoming his equal (he was created via a similar, but accidental, process) so they could be lovers. Thank god that backfired spectactularly by making her his equal and mortal enemy... :)

Willow and Vamp!Willow may have the same problem (Vamp!Willow flatout said and showed that she wanted Willow), but since it was more periphereal and played for comedy, it might be okay. I've left it for now, at least...

And...

• Oz: Take your pick. There's Schillinger/Beecher, Schillinger/Chris, Adebisi/Beecher, Schillinger/Adebisi... and many more where that came from.
• John/Ben.
  • Following the Season Five Finale, the internet fandom nearly drowned in the FoeYaytasticness that is Ben/Jacob. It doesn't help matters that Ben's motivation for stabbing Jacob seem reminiscent of that of a spurned lover, painting Ben in a new, rather yandere-ish light. The fangirls have apparently approved.
• Wizards Of Waverly Place's producers played with Justin and Alex's relationship so much, that most viewers don't even see them as siblings, anymore. The fandom is full of Jalex (Justin/Alex) shippers.
  • Not to mention the recent movie, in which the producers seem to constantly insert incestuous Double Entendres in otherwise heartwarming brotherly scenes.
• Heroes: Mainly Chandra/Sylar. The term was coined in the TWoP Heroes Hoyay thread about this pairing. See also Arthur Petrelli and his sons; the sons themselves fit into this trope for many.
  • Peter loves this trope, as it seems he has a crush on every member of his family at one point of another, except perhaps his mother.
    • Peter has an incest kink even with people he isn't related to. He doesn't make a move on Simone or Caitlin until Simone says Peter's "like a son" to her father and Caitlin's brother calls him "family". So Yeah.
  • Then there's the frankly insane levels of Les Yay between half-sisters Morgana and Morgause. Morgause likes touching her sister's face waaay too much.
• Some viewers mistakenly interpreted the brother/sister relationship between Simon and River in Firefly/Serenity as something...squickier. This leaves out the important fact that it would be natural for the two of them to be very close, considering the immense trauma they went through in the years prior, and the strange and difficult situations they find themselves in during the course of the series.
  • The deleted "We want you to marry us" scene from "Our Mrs. Reynolds," while it was funny and cute, probably did little to ease said discomfort among the viewers.
  • An in-universe example was brought up in the episode "War Stories" of Mal/Zoe, even the normally lecherous Jayne was disgusted enough to comment how it was "downright unsettling".
• In the Star Trek The Original Series, Kirk/Khan. Admittedly, neither Kirk nor the writers of the show had a clue how significant Khan was going to be, and it's not really there in the second movie....but still. Squick.
• Justin and Iris from Carnivale. It's canon!
  • Personally, it's the Justin/Sofie I have trouble with.
• Supernatural: Wincest and Daddycest. Hell, Mommy/YED is Canon (if "canon" means anything more than a deal-sealing kiss, which is the demons' modus operandi—ask Bobby).
  • Even worse, the YED was wearing her dad's meat suit at the time. I never wanted to associate Mitch Pileggi with that, dammit.
  • And then there's YED/John. Considering that all demons seal their deals a certain way.... YED has subtext with everyone, including ALL of the Winchesters.
  • Alistair/Dean. With all that talk about "poking and prodding" and the fact that they were in hell so it's pretty fricking likely he tortured Dean that way, the writers went as far with the subtext as they were allowed. Silly writers.
    • Heck, even Sam and Dean get into meta-verse No Yay. One episode has, due to magical influence, the two brothers finding fanfiction starring them 'together'. Dean is understandably squicked.
  Dean: Now that's just sick.
• House/Tritter. As others have noted, this is a hard pairing to go into, seeing as how Tritter made most viewers' skin crawl and most of their fanfic includes either dubcon or noncon.
• Mr. Schuester and the Beiste from "Glee"
• Everyone in Arrested Development since they're all related. Especially Buster and Lucille, but occasionally GOB and Michael, also. Euugh.
• George/Tully. It starts out fun, but ends with what looks an awful lot like attempted rape.
• Battlestar Galactica: Cavil/Ellen (Especially because of his Oedipus Complex) and Cavil/Boomer.
  • More explicity, and more creepily: Kara/Leoben
    • Made hilarious when you take into account Katee Sackhoff herself shipping Kara/Leoben.
• StargateSG-1: O'Neill/Maybourne. Especially in season 6's Paradise Lost. Could be considered "Foe Yay" if it weren't so damn icky and just plain wrong.
• The Sarah Connor Chronicles has some Foe Yay between Cameron and Allison. Let the disturbing realization of that kick in.
  • There's also the subtle indicators of future John Connor and Allison, which would mean a thirty-something man with a teenage girl...
  • Don't forget about Jesse/Riely...
• An episode of McMillan and Wife had a double for Mac (also played by Rock Hudson) doing a surprising sensual tango with Mildred (Nancy Walker).
  • How about November/ Paul (Note: I din't say Mellie), made all so worse when they showed him having sex with her after the revelation.
• The (utterly pointless) DVD extended cut of the Doctor Who story "The Five Doctors" has a sequence in which the Fifth Doctor and his grand-daughter Susan appear to be coming on to each other. In the commentary to the original cut of the story on the DVD, the actress playing Susan explicitly admits that the scene was cut for that reason.
  • Then there's all that weird newfound chemistry between Mickey and Jackie in the season four finale that many, many fans would like to not see. Mickey even says he'll miss Jackie the most! And by that, he means he'll miss his ex-girlfriend's mother the most.
    • And what's wrong with that, again?
    • Newfound? There's some definite innuendo between them in "Love And Monsters", and in "Doomsday" Mickey has an interesting facial expression when Jackie tells Pete that she was faithful to his alternate counterpart's memory.
    • They've still got nothing on the Naismiths from End Of Time. Eugh. At first you think they're a creepy husband and wife but then they turn out to be father and daughter...
  • The co-dependent Doctor/Master No Yay. Especially new series Master seems to have taken to hitting the Doctor when he can't defend himself.
  • As if watching The Twin Dilemma wasn't bad enough on it's own, the level of affection between the Sixth Doctor and his old school teacher Azmael is kinda disturbing.
  • While the scene in Flesh and Stone were Amy attempts to seduce the Doctor does have it's fans on the Fetish Fuel pages, many find it creepy due to the fact that Amy has been obessed with the Doctor since childhood, they're in her childhood bedroom with all the cartoons she drew and dolls she made of the two of them with her wedding dress hanging on the wardrobe. And the Doctor clearly doesn't want to have sex with her and she's ignoring him.
  • Apparently Matthew Waterhouse had a few unwanted advances from writer/director Peter Grimwade, which might explain why the male researchers in Grimwade-directed "Kinda" seemed to like getting a little cozy with Adric.
• This one may very well get deleted owing to the sheer popularity of the ship, but...Guy/Marian from Robin Hood. Over time, this pairing became significantly more popular than Robin/Marian, (thanks to the appeal of Richard Armitage) but it was just squicky. Richard Armitage himself said that his idea in portraying the relationship was to make the audience "squirm every time [Guy] got close to Marian," which results in several scenes in which he looms over her in a domineering way with an arrogant smirk on his face, whilst Marian's body language screams "stay away from me". It eventually played out as an abusive relationship, in which Guy burns down Marian's house, makes her the subject of several lewd comments, shoves her to ground, hits her father, yells at her and threatens her constantly, and eventually stabs her in the stomach in a scene that was specifically shot to have sexual connotations. But try telling that to the fangirls...
  • Also worth noting is that Richard Armitage (Guy) was closer to forty than thirty when he played Guy of Gisborne, and Lucy Griffith (Marian) was still only a teenager.
• Deep Space Nine has a certain amount of Kira/Dukat that even she quickly realizes is squicky.
  • Not to mention Garak/Ziyal. C'mon, she was about half his age, it was weird.
    • It gets worse when you find out the writers hooked the two of them up to distract from all the Ho Yay between Garak and Doctor Bashir.
  • And Sloane seemed to have something of a creepy obssesion with Doctor Bashir, including sneaking into his bedroom in the middle of the night and hiding in the shadows watching him sleep...
• Some subsets of Criminal Minds fandom are intent upon shipping Hotch/Foyet. Yes, the buttoned-up married-for-ages FBI agent and the guy who attacked him in his home, very possibly raped him, then went on to kill his ex-wife. Keeping in mind non-con is the least squicky of the issues surrounding that pairing . . .
  • It's pretty clear, at least, that Foyet is intent on squicking Hotch out by making reference to the idea. He talks a lot about the sexual dimension of knifework while repeatedly stabbing Hotch, to the point where his language starts to verge on dirty talk. And he brings that idea up again later, when he's talkng to Hotch on the phone. "Tsk tsk. Be gentle. Like I was with you."
    • Please God, No. Just... No.
• Drake And Josh. Just...Drake and Josh. C'mon, they've kissed each other several times, on the lips at least once, are very touchy feely and just in general act/bicker like an old married couple. Except they're brothers. Squick
  • They're ''step''-brothers
• Harry Potter: Lucius/Harry. Need I say more?
  • Topped with Dumbledore/Harry.
  • Harry/Voldemort. If the above picture (Page Image from Marthia Arkoniel.) didn't already clue you in...
    • Their wands connected and a shock of electricity ran between them. Time seemed to hold still. It HAPPENED, but you didn't want to SEE it. Of course, your mileage may vary.
    • Especially the graveyard scene as featured in the movie. Let's face it, Ralph Fiennes, who played Voldemort, is sexy. He's got Harry tied up, which would not be as bad in a different context. But then you look at the face and remember what character this is. I blame the scriptwriters and choreographers.
  • There's Harry/Vernon stuff out there.
    • What.
  • Riddle/Ginny. Especially when you consider that Ginny was eleven when it would have happened. Subverted as it's actually a somewhat popular ship but just think about it.
  • This troper has run across fics pairing Dumbledore with the *Sorting Hat* and with Fawkes. Both fics sent her into BSOD mode.
  • Let's just make this easy. Go to Fiction Alley's list of ships. Cry for your lost innocence.
• Frodo Baggins/Samwise Gamgee in The Lord of the Rings. Good freaking lord, please stop writing. There's ample justification for their relationship. Going through hell together sort of puts all notion of personal space/modesty/societal norms behind you. Not to mention the book has Frodo as a wise, fatherly figure for the young, I'll-follow-you-my-general Sam...the entire point of their relationship was to show love knows no bounds and that even Hell can't spoil a good friendship.
  • And thankfully, Peter Jackson understood this.
    • That's sarcasm, right?
  • Legolas/Gimli. Or Gimli/anyone, really.
  • And Gollum/Frodo. Dear lord. WHY?!
  • Not as bad as Gollum/Frodo, but also Merry/Pippin. The Sam/Frodo thing above applies, plus they're cousins and possibly grew up around each other.
  • It's safe to say any same-sex attachment in the book/movie was strictly platonic. The friendships/male camaraderie in the series were influenced by Tolkien's own friendships...and Tolkien was so in love with his wife, every canon romance in his whole world was influenced by his and her bond.
    • Also, he was pretty staunchly Catholic, and they really really didn't go for homosexuality back then . . . or mostly now.
    • Don't try to argue logic with slashers.
  • Er, how about Wormtongue/Eowyn? Especially in the movie. That's a lot creepier than any of the slash pairings.
• Twilight. The thought of non-parental overtones between Carlisle Cullen and any of his vampire "children", the semi-incestuous attitude of the Cullen family in general (despite how they're all pretending to be adopted siblings), the whole imprinting mess... not cool.
  • Made worse (or perhaps better) by the Subtext of the film in the flashback which features Carlisle biting Edward, and the fact that Carlisle refers to our sparkling hero as "beautiful" when recounting it in the book. Edward is supposedly extremely attractive, presumably as a human as well, but it really does nothing to lessen the weirdness.
    • Made hilarious by Pattinson's admission that the actor playing Carlisle whispered "You're so sexy" during that scene to give him a realistically freaked-out expression.
  • Edward is supposedly cold to the touch, as well as sparkly, leading to people dubbing his equipment "sparkle peen". When a company goes as far as to manufacture a sparkly dildo that you can put in the fridge for the full 'effect' (NSFW), and the comments page is filled with reviews... it doesn't bear thinking about.
    • What.
  • How about the werewolves who "imprint" on girls who aren't even potty-trained yet? The best S. Meyer can give us is that it's totally not a sexual relationship yet. Implying, of course, that one day it will be.
• House Of Leaves: Pelafina/Johnny. She does keep pointing out how strong and handsome he is, just like his father...
  • And if you accept the reading that she wrote all those awkward sex scenes about her son...
• ANY mention of Erik/Raoul to a Phantom Of The Opera fan.
  • Sadly, this particular pairing seems to have increased in popularity following the film of the musical, which featured the Phantom tying Raoul up spread-eagle in the final scene. Thank you so bloody much, Joel Schumacher.
  • Even worse is that the movie takes what is normally a well-liked ship and squicks it up to eleven. The Phantom begins tutoring Christine when she's nine. So that he could stalk and attempt to rape her when she grew up. Made EVEN ICKIER by the fact that Emmy Rossum was only 16 during filming.
• In Maximum Ride, Max demonizes a female character for exchanging small talk with her boyfriend, claiming that said female was hitting on him. A similar scene between two male mad scientists occurs early in the third book, and... well. Your Mileage May Vary.
  • To some: Violet/Klaus.
    • Especially in the movie, where puberty has been really generous with Klaus◊.
• Dragonlance Caramon/Raistlin.
• In Nation, the way the mutineers treat Daphne sometimes comes off like this: they call her names like "Princess" ("to make her skin crawl," she thinks) and one "never took his eyes off [her] when she was on deck." When Cox points it out, asking if one of his cronies "tried to mess [her] up," it just comes off as more No Yay on his part. Squick.
• YMMV, but also siblings Estha and Rahel in Arundhati Roy's The God of Small Things. Near the end of the book there is implied Twincest between the two of them. Sure, they haven't seen each other in 23 years and they're either so distant they're like strangers or so close they're like one person but still...

And part 3...

• Oh God, Ganon/Link in The Legend Of Zelda games...
  • Don't forget the Zant/Midna subtext in Twilight Princess.
  • Link.... Linebeck.... * belch* .
    • I'll make it fit◊, indeed...
    • It's very popular among Phantom Hourglass fans. Bellum/Link, on the other hand...
• Portal: Chell/GLaDOS, anyone?
  • Made even better/worse with some of the insane-yet-brilliant theories concerning the game, for example the one where GLaDOS views Chell as a sort of surrogate daughter, or the one where they're the same person.
    • If the Flash map pack is canon, that's no stretch of the imagination.
• Baten Kaitos: Origins: Sagi and his mother, Sagi and the shemale robot, the robot and Milly, the mother and the children.
  • Actually, Your Mileage May Vary on the Milly and shemale robot one...
• F.E.A.R. 2: Project Origin plays this absolutely straight and absolutely deliberately with the... "interaction"... between Becket and Alma. Whether they succeeded or failed is in the air.
• A lot of hardcore Batman The Animated Series fans were more than a little disturbed by Batman and Batgirl's implied relationship.
  • Which was first made canonical in Batman Beyond, then coyly but clearly shown in the DTV movie Mystery of the Batwoman.
  • Barbara Gordon's attraction to (and fantasies about) Batman were made perfectly clear starting in the very first season, before she was even a regular. Batman's eventual reciprocation is a little more surprising.
  • In the DVD commentary, Timm even admitted that the purpose of the relationship was for shock value.
  • There have been a few Batman Beyond fics pairing Bruce Wayne and Terry, written by different authors. When you think about the revealing twist in "Epilogue", it gets worse. Brain Bleach, please.
  • The "Mask of the Phantasm" movie had the Joker refer to Batman as "cute" offhand, then directly call him "toots" just before nearly blowing him up.
    • I'm pretty sure that Joker thought he was speaking to Andrea/The Phantasm when in reality Batman had the phone, especially since the conversation seems to be one of the things that tips Bruce off to Phantasm's identity.
• Similarly, An American Tail's own Award-Bait Song "Somewhere Out There", despite being a lovely song and effective Tear Jerker, also manages (once you realise how romantic it sounds) to hit some nasty No Yay buttons considering it's being sung by siblings. Really, all you need to know is that James Ingram and Linda Ronstadt's music video for their cover of the song was able to play it as a straightforward romantic ballad without them changing a single word.
• Avatar The Last Airbender. Zuko/Azula. When the show's creators jokingly suggest this as a possibility at the end of this video, you can hear someone in the audience shout "What the hell's wrong with you?"
  • The scene in Azula's bedroom. They're discussing politics, but With no dialogue and (in)appropriate music...
    • Also, in the season 2 episode where Zuko falls ill as a result of spiritual conflict due to releasing Appa he has a dream where he is Fire Lord and a blue dragon representing Azula seems to be trying to seduce him. Which, let's face it, she probably would do if Zuko became Fire Lord.
• Some people are squicked by others shipping Ben and Gwen in Ben 10, since they are cousins.
  • They're also prepubescent.
    • That's part of the appeal, to some.
• Mother 3: Lucas/Ionia. The implications of this scene are a little... odd.
  • Don't forget that there's a section of the fandom that makes out Porky as a sort of Memetic Molester and ship him with Ness, The Masked Man, or Giegue.
  • Or for that matter, any male character / any Magypsy.
• The Witcher - Foe Yay between Geralt and Azar Javed reaches this level. And Berengar before and Jacques later, but not quite as intense or sustained. Both Berengar and Jacques seem a bit needy for Geralt's acceptance, though Jacques also seems somewhat affectionate toward Geralt.
• Final Fantasy VII has Sephiroth with Cloud. Or Aerith. Or anyone, really.
  • Uh, given Sephiroth is a Memetic Sex God and some people are into warped power dynamics, and even if you're not he was quite noble and heroic before the insanity set in, Your Mileage Is Going to Vary Quite a Bit.
  • Also, Hojo and his numerous human experiments, notably Vincent.
    • I think the CANON pairing of Hojo and Lucrecia aka Sephiroth's parents deserves particular mention. Likely intentional.
    • Even Hojo is YMMV. Yes, even he. Science is sexy.
  • Barret Cloud. Doesn't help that you can get the Gold Saucer scene with him.
• Mega Man X: Anyone being with Sigma. Even the mere thought of Sigma getting it on with anyone is repulsive. Not to mention the infamous Vile/X fics where Vile has an obsession with X and talks about how beautiful he is and how he'd love to possess him.
  • Also, Lumine/Axl despite the fact that Axl is techically (from a robot equivilant) his older brother. It gets worse when you remember Lumine attacked Axl with a tentacle ...
  • Speaking of Axl, anything pairing him with his father/mentor/boss Red.
  • Dynamo with anyone. Even aside from the fact that he's a slimy creep, he instigated a Colony Drop on the planet. Which still doesn't stop him from screwing X, Zero and even Signas. Not to mention a line in the game where he says he'd do anything for Sigma.
  • Colonel/Iris. God, why?
  • Light/X, Cain/X, Wily/Zero ... actually, any pairings involving those three doctors.
  • Pretty much any pairing with the animaloid Mavericks.
• In killer7, there's Harman Smith (an old, wheelchair-bound assassin) and his maid Samantha... and it's canon. Well, the fact that Samantha rapes, or at the very least molests, Harman while he's unconscious is canon. (as is Harman raping and killing her in revenge) This is Suda51, though, and it was almost certainly designed to be every bit as creepy as it seems.
• Familial love ending up as No Yay isn't all that uncommon, so it's no surprised that some people see subtext between heroine Jade and her uncle/surrogate father Pey'j in Beyond Good And Evil. The "hug scene" is particularly creepy to some.
• Knights Of The Old Republic has a few different flavors. Malak/Revan (and the gender of Revan does not matter). There's also Malak/Bastila (because of that conversion scene). Kreia with anyone? Find the Brain Bleach and FAST!
  • Not to mention the slightly-better supported Lightning-Hope pairing. The writers were clearly going for a sort of mother-son relationship, which naturally hasn't stopped severely squicky fanart from surfacing. The worst thing is that the artists seem to embrace the quasi-incestual vibe.
• Wander/Agro. I'm going to Hell.
• Similarly to the directly above, War/Ruin. Some of the dialogue directly after the reunion could even be interpreted as joking at this, and you have to admit the reunion itself is a bit... Touching.
• Kratos/Lloyd. Thanks a lot, Tales Of Symphonia, for introducing me to the concept of Abandon Ship.
  • Mithos/just about anyone, thanks to his creepily obsessive nature. In particular, there's a lot of speculation on just how - and how literally - he kept Kratos on the leash. This is not helped by Kratos' spectacularly bondage-y Cruxis uniform.
  • Yuan/Tabatha exists. Yeah, the emotionless doll that looks exactly like his dead girlfriend. You're welcome.
  • Some people find the canonical Regal/Alicia squicky, because of the difference in their ages.
    • Regal/Alicia is actually a lot less Squicky than most people realise. See the entry on the Symphonia anime May–December Romance for the full story. It's an extremely irritating example of All There in the Manual, but hey, at least it clears things up.
    • Regal/Presea is even worse in this regard (though thankfully non-canonical), because even though Presea's actually older than Alicia, she looks younger.
    • You think that's bad, there's Regal/Genis on Fanfiction.net.
• From the Sonic The Hedgehog universe, GeneralCacti introduces us to Eggman X Blaze. Sonic and Silver aren't the only ones horrified.
  • How about Eggman X Anyone Else? eww.
    • Sonic X Elsie. And the worst part is... it's canon.
• Is it just me, or was Gul'dan practically drooling over Kil'jaeden in Rise of the Horde? Stop it, brain, I don't want to imagine that D:
• Some reviewers over at Phoenix Online were a little squicked out at the opening scene of Kings Quest The Silver Lining. Admittedly, keeping the comatose Alexander and Rosella in the same room under heavy guard is practical...but the same bed?!
• Terinu. The appropriately named Cyeman Cadwell and Gwen, the former helping Gwen cyberglide for the first time in a manner that leaves no doubt about another kind of First Time.
  Cyeman: Now get yourself comfortable.
  Gwen: Er... Will it hurt?
  Cyeman: Not at all.
• The Freefall forums ones had such a "gem" as Mr. Kornada/the Mayor. No. Just... No.
• Spooning With Spoony /The Nostalgia Chick. The fact that it's canon only makes it worse.
  • Or, logically, how about Spoony/ Critic? At the very least, Spoony wasn't all that interested in the Chick and she was just some random lay who he couldn't remember the name of afterwards. Critic, he actually wanted. Not to mention that Critic went through this before with a date acting like Spoony on his prom night and the whole "blackmail with crossdressing photos" thing afterwards.
• Vlad/Danny from Danny Phantom, anyone?
  • Scarily comparable to Slade and Robin just above.
• TJ has an obsession with the superhero Wordgirl that sometimes seems to border on a crush. Unbeknownst to him, she's actually his sister.
  • Sometimes? Name one time it doesn't.
• Pooh's Grand Adventure: The Search for Christopher Robin. The whole song "Wherever You Are" is Ho Yay incarnate; sounding exactly like someone broken-hearted pining for his missing lover. Lines such as "I'm empty and I'm cold, and my heart's about to break, come and find me" & "I can only dream of you, wherever you are" are sung, and it's even more disturbing since... it's Winnie The Pooh. Lovely song though.
  • This song is really easy to see as just an innocent stuffed toy searching for his owner. Seeing Ho Yay in it is sort of like watching a movie about a lost dog trying to find its way home and thinking "Oh man, Sparky so just wants to sleep with that kid."

You are a champion for doing all that.

I went through it again and cut a bunch more that were canon text, incestuous or just had really flimsy justifications. Some of the entries still need some ajor trimming. The Full Metal Panic one is pretty ridiculous. And there's a few others I hestitated about cutting and might go back and take out.

• In Berserk, there's Princess Charlotte and her old father, the King of Midland. She looks identical to her mother, the Queen, which... caused some problems. Canonically, he ends up trying to rape her, after his rage that Griffith slept with her. The idea of this is very disturbing, and definitely requires a ton of Brain Bleach.
  • As does Griffith's obsession with Guts... constantly telling Guts "You are mine"/"You belong to me" and "You will fight for me, because you belong to me. I will chose the place where you will die for me." Trying to kill him to prevent him from leaving the Band Of The Hawks, visiting Princess Charlotte and having sex with her immediately after Guts left out of frustration and depression... and then, when the Eclipse goes down, after consigning his entire body of men to be eaten alive by demons and becoming Femto, brutally raping Guts's love interest Casca into insanity... forcing Guts to watch while he is doing so and deliberately staring straight into Guts's eyes the ENTIRE TIME he is doing that to Casca. Not to mention the fact that he uses Guts and Casca's corrupted child as a vessel to be reincarnated back into the mortal world. Yeah, it's probably safe to say that the Griffith/Guts pairing is hazardous for your health.
    • The best part? There's more fanfic of that pairing than Official Couple Guts/Casca.
  • Some people still ship Griffith/Casca despite everything that happened during the Eclipse, sometimes even suggesting that Rape Is Love. No. Just... No; that should have been a ship sinker.
  • And Slan's attraction to Guts, what with her being a sadomasochistic demonic god, who basically derives a lot of pleasure from all the suffering she and the other God Hands can put him through. And it's not exactly helped by the fact that Slan is Too Kinky to Torture — the only thing that Guts succeeds in doing by impaling and blowing off half of Slan's torso with his Arm Cannon during his battle with her in the Qliphoth is giving her an orgasm.
    • It should be noted that she decided to go about "battling with him" in the Qliphoth by appearing in front of him completely naked and acting as though they're having sex. Then there's the fact that the body she was in at the time was made out of the internal organs of the hundreds of trolls that Guts has just slaughtered, they are surrounded by blood and gore, and she's also impaling him with her hair.
• Legend Of The Blue Wolves has the hugely grotesque Captain Continental's sex scene with a blue haired subordinate in the beginning of the movie. A more extreme example of No Yay would have to be him lusting after Jonathan, leading up to the scene where he and one of his subordinate's rape Jonathan.
• Revolutionary Girl Utena is full of unhealthy relationships, many of them involving siblings, but on the first viewing many fans notice especially that some of Akio and Anthy's behavior towards each other is laced with subtext. Here's the thing, it turns out that they really are screwing each other, and that's the least disturbing and twisted thing about their relationship.

• How the HELL Rorshach/Dan- the batshit psycho Heroic Sociopath and the mild-mannered, nerdy overweight guy with ED-became the Fan-Preferred Couple in the Watchmen fandom, we may never know.
  • Because fandom has a compulsion for turning philia into eros?
• The Garfield comic for February 2, 2010 has Garfield accusing Jon of calling his name "for the sheer pleasure of it." no, no, no . . .
• Cable and Deadpool comic series often had UST subtext between the two characters for laughs. Great, except for the fact they'd probably be the ugliest couple in the Marvel universe.
• Weebo and Philip in Flubber. She creates a hologram simply to have sex with her creator, Robin Williams. In a Disney movie.
• Malcolm and Cole in The Sixth Sense, considering Cole's a child. He always gets Cole alone, since he's a ghost and others in the scene reacting to Cole but not him would spoil the twist ending his wife acts distant to him, supposedly because he's neglecting their marriage in favor of spending time with Cole, he takes Cole places without the knowledge of his mother can you imagine her approving of him attending a stranger's funeral for no apparent reason? and so on.
• Merlin: Gaius/Merlin and Gaius/Arthur; in one episode, Gaius drugs Arthur to stop him from competing in a duel, then watches. As. He. Falls. Asleep. With this creepy smile on his face - the whole scene, I couldn't think anything but "Date rape much?"
• The first season finale of Dollhouse unsettled more than a few tropers with it's rather blatant Alpha/Echo subtext. And the second season premiere also gave us Claire's attempted seduction of/hatesex with Topher, which is disturbing on a number of levels. Even Topher was squicked by the implications.
  • There's also the season 2 ship of Boyd and Claire. Why is this disturbing? Because he erases Claire's personality and replaces it with that of his male business partner, using her body as a sleeper agent.
• Tanz Der Vampire has Graf von Krolock and Herbert, his son. They actually have a fairly close relationship, for a Classic Horror Vampire and his spoilt, flamboyant 20-or-so son, but as the Count would appear to be bisexual (or at the very least fond of bashful pages) and rather protective of his son, some see Krolockcest where they'd rather not. Similarly, the more canonish Krolock/Alfred vibes.
• Metal Gear Solid 4 gives us Old Snake/Revolver Ocelot, both of whom appear to be at least 60 years old.
  "Snaaaake..." * kisses*
  • Not to mention Psycho Mantis, who stalks Snake after his own death in order to molest him with possessed beautiful women, and read Snake's Memory Card and shake his controller...
  • Snake/Pettrovich from Metal Gear 2. Snake compliments Pettrovich on his weight, and (in the fan translation) comments that it's strange that Pettrovich looks so good for his age. When Pettrovich murders Marv, Snake refuses to believe it at first, and then there's the hilarity of the boss battle with Pettrovich strangling him which looks... funny. Even after this, Snake leaves him alive for no apparent reason.
  • Metal Gear Solid is made of No Yay and Fan Disservice. From Gray Fox treating Good Old Fisticuffs like a BDSM session ("Yes! Hurt me more! More!") to the Uncanny Chasm that is the Beauty and the Beast Unit rubbing themselves all over Snake to Volgin's interactions with just about everyone, it quickly reaches the point where suggesting Kojima has issues becomes less and less of a joke.
  • The briefing for The Twin Snakes remake of Metal Gear Solid, in which a scantily-clad Solid Snake at one point is joined on the bed by Colonel Campbell. They get closer and closer... then they both sort of sit up straight, recline on their elbows next to each other, and give each other a look. No. Yay.
    • Doesn't help that in Portable Ops, Campbell (in his younger, I Was Quite a Looker years) fulfills a portion of the game's obligatory Ho Yay. Almost the first words out of his mouth on being introduced to Big Boss? "That's your name? ...It's got a ring to it..."

• The Simpsons. Sideshow Bob/Bart. Yes, people ship it, yes there are numerous fanart and fanfics. There are people who think the "I've Grown Accustomed To His Face" scene is a massive Ship-Moment!

A few of those, like the Berserk one I just cut down, not entirely removed.

and I fiddled with the description a bit more, hopefully it'll discourage people from abusing it more :/ We'll have to wait and see.

Before I delete them: Ask That Guy/Sage had Sage dominating him and then raping him, while Ask That Guy/Ma-Ti had ATG nearly raping Ma-Ti before getting the tables turned on him. As they're both (very squicky) canon, shouldn't they not be here anymore?

Yes, actually! Can't believe I missed that one.

Also putting the Sasuke/Orochimaru entry back in. Copying it over from the Ho Yay page since it is better explained.

Yeah, there's probably a ton of good examples up there that are just lacking details. Like, I know Dukat and Kira's a good one (so good that the actor and actress themselves took a stand and refused to let the writers go any further!), it just needs to be explained for people who haven't seen DS 9 (just imagine Adolf Hitler and Anne Frank as a couple - that's the gist of it. O.o). So this is as much a repair project as a deletion one: if you see anything that's worth saving, just be sure to give it a good write-up. :)

(Okay, added Kira and Dukat back, and rewrote Harry Potter a bit!)

Well they're all archived here so we can keep adding this back, I know I'll be keeping my eye on this page for the next while haha.

Hopefully this will encourage people to be more selective about what they're putting on here.

Essentially what it's being used for right now is People Complaining About Pairings They Don't Like or the slash equivalent of Het is Ew. That, mixed with the about of Subjectivity that comes with this trope makes it so that almost every example listed is being debated.

As we were saying on the forum dicussion, people are listing examples of things like Canon same-sex relationships and things that are listed on the Ho Yay and Incest Yay pages, just in a negative light.

I don't see any legitimate reason for keeping this as a seperate trope. Especially now that there's an Incest Yay trope that covers almost all of the legitimately squicky examples on this page.

It doesn't cover Baby Doll and Killer Croc or Fang and Kitten. It doesn't cover Buffy and Spike, or Conner and Cordelia, nor Felicity and Fat Bastard. Incest Yay doesn't even scratch the surface, and it's not even the most common way the trope's used. I'd argue that this isn't really a YMMV trope, it's something very deliberately used within a story. So long as the pairing's meant to squick the audience, it counts.

The real problem is that all the "Yay" tropes have lost sight of the story's intent and are running on pure fan speculation now. Practically any relationship between two same-sex characters results in Ho Yay / Les Yay, any pair of enemies gets called Foe Yay, two relatives showing concern for each other sparks Incest Yay and so on. No Yay being used for every potentially squicky pairing is just following the same pattern.

Though reading over the trope description (which really does read like "yay entries that I don't like"), maybe the page needs to be drastically reworked along those lines. But again, this is a problem with all the Yay pages; the reason this page is crazy rampant with natter and speculation is because they all are. This one just slants negative instead of positive (and really, neither should be the case).

I think that your interpretation of what the trope is differs greatly from what the trope actually means. The description of the trope is talking about audience reaction, when you are percieving subtext that may or may not be there, and find it repulsive or unappealing. That's pure YMMV.

I do agree that the Ho Yay/Incest Yay pages need to be cleaned up, that's kind of a seperate issue from this page and it's existence.

Unfortunately I'm not super familiar with all of the examples you just listed, although Felicity and Fat Bastard did have sex, so that's not Yay and not subtext, same with Buffy and Spike.

^ The trope means whatever we, the tropers, decide that it means. I do agree that it should be seriously reworked, but not cut.

^^ Right, which is why I said the description/examples may need a lot of work.

The thing is, if we're already in the position of accepting the Yay pages as a subjective place to cheer on fetishy pairings, then this page fills a valid niche within that category. If we're complaining about this page as being too subjective and nattery, then the Yay pages in general all have the exact same thing going on. I'd like to keep No Yay focused on the in-universe squicky pairings, but that'd require either rewriting all the other Yay pages, or decoupling this one from them in spite of the name. Personally, I have no problem with the latter.

(I don't have much of a problem with the former either, but how likely is that? :p)

Also, it's linked in 229 articles with 707 inbound links. That's a lot of traffic.

Again, re-ittearating my orginal point. This "trope" is being used mainly as essentially the equivalent of Het is Ew for people who don't like slash. Which is why I don't think it should be here. Not only do I find it kind of borderline homophobic in nature, but because it's so subjective, even if we decide clean up the examples, there's no way to decide on an example that can be completely agreed upon by everyone.

Especially since the Incest Yay page was recently created and puts a big emphasis on the YMMV, which makes the other big chunk of the examples on this page kind of pointless.

My original suggestion for this page was to get rid of ALL the examples and make it a no examples allowed page, maybe with a link off to Troper Tales for people to complain about pairings they don't like, because essentially that's all this page is.

BUT If we re-work the description so that it means examples of creators using subtext to intentionally invoke a Squicky reaction from the audience it would make more sense, and seperate it from the Yay pages and rename it then that would be a fair compromise I think, although I'm still in favor of cutting it (and I'm not the only one).

Well, the Yays in general are filled with slash examples anyway, so that's just the nature of fan shipping. If 90% of the ships are slash, then it stands to reason that the negative entries would also be disproportionately slash. The page description makes no such distinction, so if it's a problem at all, it's just with the examples (though I'm not comfortable dictating that people aren't allowed to be uncomfortable with certain pairings).

(Edit: Besides, reading over the examples, the only full-on "slash is ew" entry I noticed was Sam and Frodo. The rest of them are a mix of fetishes, but focus more on the squicky emotional and moral dynamics of such a pairing than just on the orientation, like Shinji and Gendo, Louis and Claudia, or Batman and the Joker.)

This is why I don't like using "subtext" and "audience reaction" as guidelines at all, though. Cordelia and Conner slept together in Angel, and the rest of Team Angel gagged when they found out. Felicity and Fat Bastard slept together in Austin Powers, and Austin practically had a Heroic BSoD over "the sheer mechanics of it". Kitty and Fang made out at the school prom, and the Teen Titans all gave a collective "ew". Those are objective, harmless examples of No Yay being used in-story by the characters and writers.

Once "subtext" is allowed in, though, it starts turning debatable. Some people see subtext in everything, and some people never want to admit to genuine subtext. Then when audience reactions are allowed in, that's where we get into Organization XIII shipping crazes and other things that have no subtext anywhere except Deviant Art and fanfiction.net. Right now, that's where we currently stand in regard to the Yay pages.

I'm not sure we need to change the name even if it's trimmed to in-universe examples; it's still clever and apt. And, to compromise with the people who are using this page like the other Yay pages, maybe we can move the existing fan-reaction examples over to the Troper Tales section.

The whole point of Ho Yay is that it is subtext. And that is and has to be the guildine that is used. Otherwise it's just a canon romantic relationship, then it goes under Official Couple, Yaoi Guys or any of the other couple tropes. Ho Yay is specifically for things that are implied in text, but not outright stated in canon. And while I agree that the Ho Yay page really needs to be cleaned up, there are a lot of valid examples in those pages and Ho Yay is used as a tool by authors, especially since same-sex couplings are not widely accepted and authors of many genres are not allowed to do anything other then strongly imply a romantic relationship.

And again, that's a discussion for the Ho Yay page, not here.

None of the examples you just listed are of No Yay at all! No Yay is SUBTEXT or implied relationships, not examples of people who have had a canonical sexual or romantic relationship that is unpleasent to the viewer/other characters.

You know what? This is like talking to a wall. You attacked this page, and none of the other Yay pages, because it offends your sensibilities. That screams personal bias to me. There is nothing wrong with this page that isn't equally wrong with all these Yay pages. I keep trying to suggest ways to fix the page, and all you keep saying "that's not what this page is about". Thank you, Captain Obvious! I'm trying to offer a compromise by explaining the very real trope that lies hidden beneath all this subtext-Yay crap and how the page can be reworked towards that instead. But you're so hellbent on cutting the page because you find it offensive (and unfairly at that - as I've already said, most of the examples are not only about slash) that you're not even listening.

So fine, no more talk about repairing the page. That's a topic that should have been thoroughly explored in TRS before someone jumped the gun and hit the cut button less than two days and just twelve posts into the discussion. Let's just break this down to the Cut List topic at hand. There are hundreds of inbounds links and wicks, and it fits the exact same template as the rest of the Yay pages. It's already marked as a YMMV page, and it has a thorough warning in the main text about its subjective nature. The page is, at the very least, certainly not beyond repair as the Cut List specifies a page needs to be. Don't cut.

Sorry I think I'm just not being clear enough about my argument. Please bear with me for a minute here.

My argument, to clarify, is that the No Yay page describes, and is being used as, a list of ships that individual tropers don't like based on subtext that they see. Essentially, as I already stated, the shipping equivalent of Complaining about Pairings you Don't Like. or the slash equivalent of Het is Ew.

Here's my understanding of your argument, so we can get on the same wavelength here. What you are describing, in your defense of the page, is authors using romantic subtext between characters as a tool to intentionally invoke a negative reaction in the audience or for other characters. (Sorry if I'm misunderstanding.)

Now, I completely agree with you that this is a valid trope. The point that I am trying to make is that that description is not what the trope page is describing.

Which is why my inital idea, as you can see on the Forum discussion and as I mentioned above, is to cut all the examples from the main page, leave the description and ask people to put examples under Troper Tales.

I think the main issue we're both having here is that, as you stated above, you feel like I want to get rid of it solely based on a personal bias, while I feel that the arguments that you are bringing in to defending it, such as questioning the validity of the other Yay pages, and listing examples of relationships that are not subtext but canon, are kind of unrelated and sidetracking from this article and the point it's making.

So, just to summarize since this is already getting pretty wall-of-text-y, how about this?

-Don't cut the page.

-Modify the description to be based around your idea ie "romantic subtext used to produce a negative in-universe or fan reaction" maybe adding in "intentional or widely percieved by the fandom"

-Remove all examples/move them into Troper Tales and request that Tropers add them to that page instead.

Do you think that's a fair compromise?

Yep, I totally agree about that being a fair compromise.

To be fair, it's not you I'm really frustrated at, it's more that the page was cutlisted so quickly without much of an effort to talk about fixing it. Your TRS topic was exactly the right move in my view.

Admittedly, my bias is that I'm not a fan of any of the Yay pages. While they should, in theory, just be about literary subtext, the name itself sort of encourages fan gushing and shipping WMG's. From that POV, this page is sort of the same thing, just from a negative slant rather than positive.

On the other hand, that's what makes it Complaining About Ships You Dont Like.

There is a "pairings and subtext that are meant for squick" trope hidden beneath all this. I've been focusing on actual pairings because they're easier to identify, but for fairly clear subtext, there's Batman and the Joker (from the Joker's dialogue, and he uses it pretty much deliberately for this effect). The trouble is, it's hard to find an example of subtext that draws in-universe squick, becaue subtext isn't usually addressed in-universe (otherwise, it'd stop being subtext). Still, there's gotta be some examples out there.

But anyway! I'd say don't cut the page, but rework the description to focus more on in-universe No. Just... No shipping reactions (whether by two characters actually hooking up, or just some innuendo that freaks the other characters out), and maybe move the troper reactions to Troper Tales.

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think we all jumped the gun over at the forum.

Batman and Joker is a good one. I think Gauron and Sousuke from Fullmetal Panic is another one that's subtext only, since it makes for a pretty effective and creepy Stalker with a Crush / I Have You Now, My Pretty situation although unforunately the author actually does ship that pairing so from his point of view it's just Ho Yay, haha.

But I digress. It'll be easier to add examples in the main page if we include canon pairings meant to induce a negative reaction. So maybe change the description to define it as canon pairings and maybe add that it can also include shipping subtext?

Then we can put the canon examples, like the ones you listed above on the main page, and ask people to move ones that are subtext only and are completely personal over to the Troper Tales, unless there's Wordof God to say that the negative reaction was intended?

The only trouble is that if we're making it emcompass canon pairings then it's not really a Yay anymore, so we'd still have to change the name I think.

So we could just keep it as subtext and make a different trope for canon couples? Like a counterpart to Squicky Sweethearts or something like that?

What do you think?

Well, my anti-Yay'ness instinct is to say that this would be a good approach for dealing with all the yay pages, so take that for what it's worth. :P

This page is trickier, because whereas Ho Yay, Foe Yay and Incest Yay address different kinds of relationships and the mere presence of subtext, No Yay addresses the fan reaction to the subtext that falls under one of the other categories. This is one of those tropes that does exist, but separating "fan reaction" from "one fan's reaction" is an ordeal.

Still, it's possible - The Scrappy, Complete Monster and other subjectives have pretty much the same obstacles, but they work, so there's no reason this page can't too. I think we'll just need to slam the natter hammer down hard and keep only the examples that really have this reaction from the fandom at large, or seem intended as such (so, for instance, Frodo and Sam are going right out the window - no in-universe innuendo, no real reason for the reaction except, as you said, Slash Is Ew, and a large part of the fandom's all for it).

You're right, though, all-out Atrocious Couples that got together and got this reaction from other characters may be a different trope altogether. I'll see about YTTKW'ing it later tonight (and moving some of the shakier No Yay examples over here for discussion).

Yeah the Yay pages do need some clean up but I am definitely not up to that task. 0__0

Alright, so let's just edit the description to ask people to move the natter to the troper tales and clean the hell out of the examples.

I've spotted a few that seem legit and are widely accepted by the fandom AND have some sort of actual subtext in canon, but they can definitely be generalized/cut down. All the canon pairings need to be cut out because they don't belong there. Also reading through them again, there's a lot of completely obscure crack pairings that need to go.

So, how do we go about cleaning out the examples? Should we go by section and maybe decide over here on the ones to keep? That'll be faster then dragging every example over here to be discussed haha.

Also should we archive the canon pairings in case that gets to be it's own trope?

I'm also thinking that all the Incest Yay examples need to go. They should be on that page, not this one, especially since the Incest Yay's description has enough negative connotation associated that it's a bit redundant to list examples in both places.

Well, later this evening I'll have a chance to sit down and go through the page, and I'll delete and move all the iffy examples over here to a new topic, so they can be potentially saved if anyone thinks they're worth it. It sounds like you know a lot more about anime than I do, though, so if I miss any in that category (or any others), I'd be grateful if you can grab and move them over too. From there, we can better see if the trope needs to be reworked, or if it's just a matter of policing this page like crazy.

And yeah, now I see what you mean about mean about Incest Yay, and why people kept bringing it up - if people are just saying "and he's her brother, ew", then that's just plain Incest Yay. But if there are any examples that go above and beyond the call of duty with the squickiness (like he's her brother and keeps her locked in a basement and killed their parents or something) they might be fair game.

No worries, the canon pairings will be saved too, in case we spin them off. :)

Alright sounds good. I'll go through them again once you're done.

I'm thinking the description really just needs an short addendum to clarify that "romantic subtext used for squick" is the point of the trope and another warning/note asking people to only add examples that have blatant/subtext (like the examples that give specific scenes) and are widely accepted by the fandom, not just a small minority. I'll write something up and post it here in a bit for reviewing.

Yeah, good point about the Incest tropes. I see a couple that have some negative overtones that can probably stay here.

Also the length needs to be cut down like crazy! So many of them have entire paragraphs talking about them. And anything that says "there are a few people that ship this". After all, this is the internet. There are a at least a few people that ship everything.

Given that I've have an enthusiastically positive reaction to something that deliberately invoked the trope, I think the answer to that is "Nothing is No Yay enough to lack shippers."

Given that the point the entry makes is that Frodo/Sam had no romantic subtext in canon, no. It doesn't belong. No Yay isn't just a ship one disagrees with, it's when the subtext is there and is squicky. It's to Ship Tease what Fan Disservice is to Fanservice. I'd delete it if I could figure out how to untangle the LOTR entry to leave the actual examples in.