To-do-list
- Per crowner consensus, Lie Back and Think of England was redefined to match the real-world usage of the expression: going through the motions and passively allowing sex to be done to oneself, Marital Rape License or not (rather than either actively taking part and enjoying it or actively resisting). Examples need to be cleaned up; remove any examples that do not fit the revised definition.
- Clean up on-page examples.
- Clean up wicks and track wick cleaning using Sandbox.Lie Back And Think Of England Wick Cleaning.
Note: This thread was proposed by Very Sunshine.
Lie Back and Think of England was placed in the Tropes Needing TRS list because, while it is meant to be used for consensual encounters, the trope was often listed in non-consensual encounters. The trope itself is about a character who finds sex to be boring or a chore, with the title coming from a noblewoman distracting herself from her husband by thinking of her country. Tropes Needing TRS suggested renaming could make the trope easier to understand.
- Lie Back and Think of England: This trope is supposed to be for women disliking and having to endure consensual sex, but gets misused (as was pointed out) for non-consensual examples. The name may be to blame for being vague. Check 50 wicks.
My wick check showed that 14% of the entries were clearly about non-consensual sex, though this number could be higher if the zero context examples, which made up 24% of the entries, were properly expanded. There is also a pattern of people interpreting this trope to mean "being distracted by anything during sex" or using it as a stock phrase (14%).
I am unsure if thinking about one love interest while having sex with another person counts as this trope. If it does, the correct usage goes up to 21/50, or 42%.
Changing the name to clarify what the trope is about could help curb misuse.
Wick check:
Misuse: Lie Back and Think of EnglandLie Back and Think of England was placed in the Tropes Needing TRS list because, while it is meant to be used for consensual encounters, the trope was often listed in non-consensual encounters. The trope itself is about a character who finds sex to be boring or a chore, with the title coming from a noblewoman distracting herself from her husband by thinking of her country. Tropes Needing TRS suggested renaming could make the trope easier to understand.
- Lie Back and Think of England: This trope is supposed to be for women disliking and having to endure consensual sex, but gets misused (as was pointed out) for non-consensual examples. The name may be to blame for being vague. Check 50 wicks.
My wick check showed that 14% of the entries were clearly about non-consensual sex, though this number could be higher if the zero context examples, which made up 24% of the entries, were properly expanded. There is also a pattern of people interpreting this trope to mean "being distracted by anything during sex" or using it as a stock phrase (14%).
I am unsure if thinking about one love interest while having sex with another person (especially another love interest" counts as this trope. If it does, the correct usage goes up to 21/50, or 42%.
Changing the name to clarify what the trope is about might be useful.
Wick Check:
Folders
- House of the Dragon: The inter-cutting and juxtaposition of a rapidly declining Viserys creakily "taking his rights" from Alicent, who submits to her wifely duties in the marriage bed with all the receptive heat and passion of the Lands of Always Winter. As opposed to hale and dashing Daemon introducing Rhaenyra to the joys of foreplay; the two of them drawn together magnetically, almost spinning and dancing when they both get lost in their first shared kiss, stroking, and writhing in the throes of building rapture.
- Literature under Fifty Shades of Grey: The other Aesop of the book is supposed to be about a woman discovering her sexuality and enjoying it. Completely broken by the fact that Anastasia can only properly admit to herself that she is feeling horny by attributing anything regarding arousal to her Inner Goddess, a mental representation of her sexuality that she depicts as the epitome of a perpetually horny woman. She considers sex dirty and disgusting, unless one is absolutely in love with their partner, and often shames people who have casual sex mentally; including her best friend Kate. Anastasia's discovery of BDSM is also done improperly: she isn't taught anything, doesn't understand safe words, and she's actively scared of the majority of what BDSM entails. The Aesop is less 'a woman discovers her sexuality and enjoys it' and more 'a woman submits to the old Lie Back and Think of England trope'.
- A Northern Dragoness under No Sympathy: He dragged his barely-widowed son to the South to force him to remarry without letting him grieve. When Jonnel meekly tries to delay by suggesting his intended bride may be unpalatable to watch, Cregan retorts he will have to bed her with his eyes closed.
- Analogue: A Hate Story under "The Pale Bride": Averted. Everyone expected her marriage to the Emperor to be like this, but it turns out that she enjoys sex. As she put it, "thirty minutes of being fulfilled - if only in the most literal sense".
- Louis C.K.:
Louis: We're so bad at sex, and then we wonder why women aren't, like, really aggressive about sex. We think it's 'cause they don't have as much desire as we do, that's how stupid men are, that we think, "They're just weird! Women are, like, fucked up in the head. 'Cause they don't wanna just fuck all the time. If I was a woman, I'd just fuck everybody! Why don't they wanna fuck all the time? I do!" Of course you do! Because when you fuck, you get to fuck a woman! When she fucks, she has to fuck a guy! Wildly different experience! For a man, 100% of the time he's fucking a woman, it's the greatest thing that ever happened in his entire life. For a woman, about 40% of the time she's being fucked by a guy, she's thinking, "I'll get over this in a week. It's not the worst thing. I'm not gonna cry this time..."
- Fan Works under Vale's Underground: The sex scene with Neptune and Weiss. Due to the Weiss not being interested in it, the idea isn't really as sexy as it could be otherwise.
- Feast:
- Tuffy is clearly just waiting for her "meeting" with Bossman to be over.
- under Smoking Hot Sex: Played with. Tuffy has a smoke while she's having sex with Bossman, but it's clear that's just her way to pass the time as she's waiting for it to be over.
- under Sleeping with the Boss: Tuffy. Not by choice, and she doesn't enjoy it, but she has a kid to feed.
- Pride (2014): One of the women, Jaqui, (drunkenly) rants to Steph and reveals that she believes sex is only for men’s pleasure. Steph assures her that sex is for the women too.
- Splendor in the Grass under All Women Are Prudes: Deconstructed. 1920s American society expects women to be like that; when Deanie asks her mother if she ever felt "that way", she's told that no nice girl ever has sexual desires, and that her mother had always viewed sex with her husband as a wifely duty rather than something to enjoy (see Lie Back and Think of England below). This causes Deanie to feel guilty about her own desires, and prevents her from consummating her relationship with Bud... which eventually leads to heartbreak for both of them.
- Sunshine Cleaning: Norah is shown having meaningless sex that she gets no joy out of after Lynn makes advances on her at a party.
- Live-Action TV under Gentleman Jack: Anne points out that, while lesbian relationships are stigmatized and considered sinful, they are not illegal — the laws forbidding homosexuality are written in a way that only applies to men. That said, Anne outright admits that even if having a relationship with another woman was a crime, it wouldn't stop her. (Believe it or not, this really was true in a lot of places, partially because, at the time, sex was thought of something done to women by men, rather than something women sought out or wanted for themselves. After all, a Proper Lady would only have sex to procreate or please her husband, riiiiiiiiiight...?)
- Aubrey-Maturin: Sophie may have been brought up to follow this trope, despite Jack's best efforts to encourage her to enjoy their marital relations. While Jack loves Sophie deeply, he's less than totally satisfied with Sophie's passive attitude toward sex (which is undoubtedly a factor in his extramarital adventures). During The Yellow Admiral, when their marriage is experiencing serious difficulties, Diana and Clarissa Oakes do their best to coax Sophie out of her indifference about sexual relations, with some success.
- The Kingdom of Little Wounds: More common than not. Sex is often something the female characters need to endure, not enjoy. Sophia in particular does her best to knock herself out with wine before consummating her marriage.
- Mahabharata under Celibate Hero: Traditionally, abstinence matters a lot in Hinduism, but usually it's fasting in various forms (vows of indefinite prohibition are another matter entirely). Thus celibacy is defined differently in the Mahabharata than almost anywhere else. It is described most of all as a lack of sexual lust. Thus, Arjuna, The Hero, is described to be a bramhachari ('celibate') despite marrying Draupadi and Subhadra, sleeping with Chitraganda and various other Naga Princesses because he is sleeping with them only for procreation. Also, warriors were not supposed to refuse any female request for sex. Highly subject to Values Dissonance.
- The Alice Network: Eve Gardiner's relationship with René Bordelon goes something like this. While she later finds herself, against her will, beginning to enjoy the physical side of it, she never likes it enough that she would willingly sleep with him if she didn’t need the information.
- A Tale of Two Rulers: Zelda accepts that in offering marriage, she's also offering herself as the mother to Ganondorf's future children, and everything that comes before children. She later suggests that old Hylian traditions enforce this for both partners by having them wear blindfolds, earplugs, and mittens during sex. It is then deconstructed and averted: Ganondorf refuses to do anything she clearly doesn't want to happen, while Zelda's primary apprehension about sex stems from her past abuse. It's only after they're both comfortable being intimate with each other that they consummate the marriage, and Zelda happily instigates intimacy as time and their relationship further progress.
- My Year of Dicks: Pamela's father tells her that women don't enjoy penetration so there's really no need for her to actually have sex.
- Best of My Love: Meng Yao commits to lying back and thinking of Lanling after initiating sex and losing interest midway through, thinking it’d be unfair to Xichen. Xichen, noticing something is wrong, stops him.
- Meth Project: In "Sisters", a teenage girl pimps herself and her little sister out to a group of men for drug money. As the video ends, the older sister can be heard saying, "Just close your eyes, Sarah..."
- Alternate Worlds: As Esdeath sexually abuses him in Chapter 2, Tatsumi tries to think of Sayo. Mercifully, Esdeath is distracted by some Danger Beasts before she can violate him.
- La piel que habito: Vera when raped by Zeca, and again when lying with Robert, in order to earn both men's trust so he could escape. Original was fully spoilered.
- The Favourite under Black Comedy Rape: Nobody gets raped onscreen, but it's referenced a few times, usually in this context. For instance, when Masham comes to see Abigail in her quarters:
Abigail: Have you come to seduce me, or rape me?
Masham: I am a gentleman.
Abigail: So, rape then? (immediately lays on her back and goes as stiff as a board) - The Last of Us:
- Even after surviving everything, Ellie has a very uncertain future to look forward to. Given that she's The Immune, she'll likely be pressured to have children to a far greater degree than the other women, as her children will likely carry her immunity and thus create the possibility of a future free of infection. Unless she runs away, back out into the dangerous wilderness, she's likely not going to have a lot of choice in whether or not she wants to have kids.
- It gets even worse when one considers the big reveal of the Left Behind DLC. One must seriously hope that Ellie is bisexual as opposed to an out-and-out lesbian, because if it's the latter, she won't even be able to suck it up and enjoy the sex. Her only option when the inevitable comes will be to Lie Back and Think of England.
- Even after surviving everything, Ellie has a very uncertain future to look forward to. Given that she's The Immune, she'll likely be pressured to have children to a far greater degree than the other women, as her children will likely carry her immunity and thus create the possibility of a future free of infection. Unless she runs away, back out into the dangerous wilderness, she's likely not going to have a lot of choice in whether or not she wants to have kids.
- Memoirs of a Geisha: Though geisha are not prostitutes, at the time the movie is set in, it's known that some greedier okiya forced them to lose their virginity to the highest bidder (a practice more common amongst Oiran). In Sayuri's case, her thoughts during the procedure run along the lines of her attempts to "put all the force of my mind to work in making a sort of mental barrier between [the man] and me… I searched the shadows on the ceiling for something to distract me."
- Dark Elf Historia: On the "Slave" path, Fraylia is repeatedly pimped out to various people on the pretense of improving Orocu's diplomatic standing.
- Sonic the Hedgehog (IDW): A rare non-sexual example: Dr. Starline tells Mr. Tinker to "lie back, relax, and think of Eggmanland" when about to painfully restore his memories of being Eggman.
- A Scotsman in Egypt under Depraved Homosexual: Duke Puccio of Milan. He even says Lie Back and Think of England to a handsome English ambassador.
- The Handmaid's Tale: Offred recalls the phrase "close your eyes and think of England" during the ceremony, and (mistakenly) attributes it to Queen Victoria. Annoyingly, this book does have a valid example, but not the way this is written.
- The Mortal Instruments: Jace tells Clary to do this before they kiss in front the fairy court in City of Ashes. More like "Close your eyes and think of England."
- Bodyline: Douglas' girlfriend says that she does this when he starts talking about cricket.
- Veronica Mars:
- V suggests this as a way for Mac to get through prom with her goober of a date.
- Mac is excited/nervous about getting a hotel room after prom; Veronica says this jokingly to calm her down.
- Inside Out under Accidental Innuendo: If Sadness telling Joy that being dragged around by her foot "feels kind of nice" wasn't fertile enough for the coarse-minded, the way she drops to the ground and sighs "I'm ready" sounds an awful lot like Lie Back and Think of England.
- Armitage III under Straw Feminists: Earth's government. The Backstory is only implied, but a key plot element is that feminists have become political powerhouses equivalent to Greens. It is implied by the presence of an Earth "observer" that on Earth, women have gained status equivalent to South African whites under apartheid - and few are willing to give that up just because Mars Needs Women. Space has been colonized, and Mars has been partially Terraformed, but has thus been unable to draw enough women to the planet to breed new Martians. Androids first created as a source of labor were upgraded to Ridiculously Human Robots known as "Seconds" as a immigration draw; come to Mars and leave the shrews behind for a sweet, willing conCeption Sexbot. The long term solution was to build fertile women - the titular "Thirds"; robots so human that they can be impregnated — and actually raise the children they give birth to. When the Straw Feminists find out about the plan, the threat to their power base pisses them off to no end, resulting in an ultimatum; scrap the baby makers or Mommy will come do it personally, along with as much of the landscape as necessary.
- Boku wa Ookami under Through His Stomach: She eventually decides to start making bento for Ookami. Sajiang thinks she's ridiculous and would be better off trying to Lie Back and Think of England.
- Hypecastr: This is Preyda's response when Kinnie says she doesn't want to have sex, or that it hurts.
- Points Of The Compass North East: Marta's advice to Urszula as a way of coping with marriage to Zakowski. Not surprisingly, completely unwelcome.
- After the Dark under Insane Troll Logic: The reasoning presented for why a gay farmer is useless to the population of the bunker. Instantly called out by everyone in the room, as they point out he still has a functional organ, so all it takes is for him to Lie Back and Think of England (it's not like plenty of gay men both in and out of the closet have not fathered children the "old-fashioned way" before). And plant some veggies after that. This could be valid, but it's unclear if this is something that happens in the film or the writer's opinion.
- Brokeback Mountain: Judging by Ennis's sexual position with Alma. Commented out on page.
- Sleeping with the Enemy: Poor Laura is clearly invoking this during sex with Martin from the moment he makes advances to her.
- Dragon Ball Z Abridged: Androids/Cell Saga: Dr. Gero: Shhhhhh! Oh, don't struggle. Just lie back and think of… Namek. Fairly certain this is a non-sexual stock phrase, but I don't have enough context to know what's happening.
- Family Guy Seasons 13 To 18: Watson's incredibly depressing Lie Back and Think of England description of his upcoming wedding night, which he is still excited about.
- Maurice under Virginity Makes You Stupid: Anne never got so much as a "Lie Back and Think of England", making her and Clive's wedding night rather funny.
- Puberty Blues: Nothing else here. I commented it out.
- Outlander S 2 E 7 Faith: Invoked by Claire as she is submitting to sex with King Louis, the price for Jamie's release from the Bastille.
- La Chienne: Lulu tells a girl friend that when Maurice is having sex with her, "I lay back and think of Dédé." Thinking of her love interest.
- DARLING in the FRANXX: Ikuno, on two occasions, is unable to get Chlorophytum moving unless she thinks of Ichigo and not Mitsuru. The implication is that she has to think of Ichigo to do her duty as a wif- sorry, pilot.
- Hayley Kiyoko: Implied in "Curious" where Kiyoko thinks her ex-girlfriend fantasizes about her while she's in bed with her new boyfriend.
"You think of me, I'm what you see, when you look at the sky."
- The Right Stuff: When John Glenn has to masturbate for a sperm sample, he hums the Marine Corps Anthem — for, uh — inspiration. Cooper then starts humming the Air Force anthem. Interservice Rivalry at its finest. Completely different trope.
- Crusader Kings III: This [planned pregnancy mechanic] also allows the player to work around characters that would otherwise almost never get a child, like a combination of traits decreasing fertility or being homosexual. Likely misinterpreting the trope.
- Girl with a Pearl Earring: Pieter wants to get more physical in his relationship with Griet, which she is much less enthusiastic about, even though everyone expects them to get married one of these days. General lack of interest in sex.
- Lousy Alternate Titles: Lie Back and Think of England at least hints that it's talking about sex, unlike Our Duty to the Party, which is way too vague.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 26th 2023 at 4:13:39 AM
Paging ~Very Sunshine. Anyway, I think the name is unclear, not helped by the fact that it's disalogue-like, but I don't have any ideas at the moment.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I was the one who added this to Tropes Needing TRS.
to renaming.
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper WallGah; I messed up the ping due to the period. Paging ~Very Sunshine properly this time.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.~Septimus Heap Sorry for the ping, but since you had suggested this be taken to TRS, is there anything you want to add to this discussion?
TRS Queue | Works That Require Cleanup of Complaining | Troper WallFor name options, Sex Is A Chore comes to mind. Alternatively, The Chore Of Sex.
Edited by Berrenta on Jun 5th 2023 at 8:35:00 AM
she/her | TRS needs your help! | Contributor of Trope ReportI will say I always thought this trope was specifically supposed to be about procreation being a chore ("Lie Back and Think of England because you need to produce an heir even if you don't want kids"). I'm curious if that's common enough to be a trope of its own.
to Sex Is A Chore as a rename for this trope.
I always thought the idea behind this trope and the saying was about characters trying to zone off as they endure rape, marital rape or otherwise. Can a person consent about sex they don't want to have? It's Questionable Consent at best.
I agree with renaming and I think "Sex Is A Chore" is the best option so far.
Sex Is A Chore is a good name.
For what it's worth, Sex Is Boring used to be a redirect to Main.Asexuality before it was determined to be unfitting, and it was redirected to Sex Tropes instead of being cut completely because of its inbound count. I still think Sex Is A Chore is a better name than Sex Is Boring, but I thought I'd mention that redirect.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 5th 2023 at 10:20:01 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.I thought the idea of the trope was "a character who doesn't enjoy the sex (for whatever reason) thinks of something else for distraction", but it seems I was mistaken.
The original YKTTW isn't much help because it seems to assume this attitude may have never been taken seriously, which the current page is more equivocal about.
Edited by MorganWick on Jun 6th 2023 at 1:25:19 AM
Another thing is that the current page makes it sound like the trope is only for women who aren't interested in sex, which makes me want to say in this form it's too similar to All Women Are Prudes. Whatever we turn this trope into it should probably be unisex.
The trope description also seems to take the trope name a little too literally and compares it to British Stuffiness and Stiff Upper Lip. It should probably be also be universal across nationalities as well.
Edited by MissConduct on Jun 6th 2023 at 10:10:33 AM
I actually disagree on making it unisex, or rather, while we don't have to ban male examples, I think this trope almost exclusively features women because it's interacting with a slew of other stereotypes and social norms regarding gender and sex: A Man Is Always Eager, Men Act, Women Are, etc. It's an intentionally sexist trope that's targeted to women (in straight couplings) to tell them to "fulfill their duty as women in relationships regardless of how they personally feel about it" since women are seen as passively receiving / having sex done to them (rather than being an active/proactive partner), anyways. It doesn't really have much to do with women being prudes since it isn't really about a woman's revulsion to anything sexual as much as it is about telling women to bear with sex even when they may not want to for a whole host of reasons (too tired, not interested, etc.)
Edited by amathieu13 on Jun 6th 2023 at 11:45:04 AM
Yeah, I would rather rewrite the trope to match the real-world usage of the expression: going through the motions and passively allowing one to have sex done to oneself, Marital Rape License or not, rather than either actively taking part and enjoying it or actively resisting.
Edited by StarSword on Jun 6th 2023 at 11:50:13 AM
I don't remember commenting on this trope, but I concur that "sex is a chore" is a different thing from a coping technique during nonconsensual sex. The former does imply a contrast between the sex being genuinely consensual and it also being unpleasant.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard FeynmanI still like Sex Is A Chore as a rename. It needs a rename because the current name is very non-indicative.
Edit: There's also Distracted During Sex?
Edited by selkies on Jun 6th 2023 at 9:49:48 PM
Regarding the origin of the phrase: At the moment, not many of the examples mention sex for procreation. There are more that might feature it, but I didn't check.
Regarding the trope being "for women": The trope might have more female examples at the moment, but I have no problem with making it unisex. A few of the zero context examples appear to feature men, but lacked detail.
I also agree with keeping the female skew. I consider ZCE to be "more misuse than not" so I don't think the presence of some male ZCE negates the historical reasons for why women would be more likely to experience the trope than men.
Maybe Disinterested During Sex would work as another name since we don't have too many suggestions at the moment. I still think Sex Is A Chore is better, though.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.Disinterested During Sex sounds too close to the existing Unfocused During Intimacy.
oh then all of the misuse of "characters distracted by something during sex" shown in the wick check can just be relocated to that trope
Fair enough, but I suppose I unintentionally led to the discovery of a place to move some of the misuse.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.How about The Chore Of Sex as a worldplay for "The Joy of Sex"?
ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔I suppose that could be another option.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Crown Description:
Lie Back And Think Of England was placed in the Tropes Needing TRS list because, while it is meant to be used for consensual encounters, the trope was often listed in non-consensual encounters. The trope itself is about a character who finds sex to be boring or a chore, with the title coming from a noblewoman distracting herself from her husband by thinking of her country. Tropes Needing TRS suggested renaming could make the trope easier to understand. What should be done with Lie Back And Think Of England?
To-do-list
Note: This thread was proposed by Very Sunshine.
Lie Back and Think of England was placed in the Tropes Needing TRS list because, while it is meant to be used for consensual encounters, the trope was often listed in non-consensual encounters. The trope itself is about a character who finds sex to be boring or a chore, with the title coming from a noblewoman distracting herself from her husband by thinking of her country. Tropes Needing TRS suggested renaming could make the trope easier to understand.
My wick check showed that 14% of the entries were clearly about non-consensual sex, though this number could be higher if the zero context examples, which made up 24% of the entries, were properly expanded. There is also a pattern of people interpreting this trope to mean "being distracted by anything during sex" or using it as a stock phrase (14%).
I am unsure if thinking about one love interest while having sex with another person counts as this trope. If it does, the correct usage goes up to 21/50, or 42%.
Changing the name to clarify what the trope is about could help curb misuse.
Wick check:
Misuse: Lie Back and Think of EnglandLie Back and Think of England was placed in the Tropes Needing TRS list because, while it is meant to be used for consensual encounters, the trope was often listed in non-consensual encounters. The trope itself is about a character who finds sex to be boring or a chore, with the title coming from a noblewoman distracting herself from her husband by thinking of her country. Tropes Needing TRS suggested renaming could make the trope easier to understand.
My wick check showed that 14% of the entries were clearly about non-consensual sex, though this number could be higher if the zero context examples, which made up 24% of the entries, were properly expanded. There is also a pattern of people interpreting this trope to mean "being distracted by anything during sex" or using it as a stock phrase (14%).
I am unsure if thinking about one love interest while having sex with another person (especially another love interest" counts as this trope. If it does, the correct usage goes up to 21/50, or 42%.
Changing the name to clarify what the trope is about might be useful.
Wick Check:
Folders
Masham: I am a gentleman.
Abigail: So, rape then? (immediately lays on her back and goes as stiff as a board)
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jun 26th 2023 at 4:13:39 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.