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Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3276: Jan 7th 2021 at 7:11:50 AM

You probably want to find out why there is a sliding scale in the first place, and whether it is widely used on the wiki. Make sure you get some consensus before changing it.

If it is supposed to be a sliding scale, the list makes more sense, because you want to be able to easily identify steps on that scale.

Edited by Redmess on Jan 7th 2021 at 4:12:56 PM

Optimism is a duty.
Miss_Desperado https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YD2i1FzUYA from somewhere getting rained on by Puget Sound Since: Sep, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#3277: Jan 7th 2021 at 9:13:52 AM

[up] It's not a sliding scale, it's a list of motivation reasons that detail how different motivations lead to different "flavors" of the trope. Other than that, your point still stands.

If not for this anchor I'd be dancing between the stars. At least I can try to write better vampire stories than Twilight.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#3278: Jan 7th 2021 at 3:53:07 PM

It literally says "Resentful parents fall on a sliding scale of understandable to Jerkass". If that is not the case, you should change that line too.

Optimism is a duty.
Kevjro7 Susjection! Since: Jan, 2020
Susjection!
#3279: Jan 10th 2021 at 5:44:51 PM

On this ATT report, it became clear that the description for Evil Cannot Comprehend Good is way too long. We need to trim it.

Dirtyblue929 Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#3280: Jan 10th 2021 at 6:45:51 PM

Thirty paragraphs, for the record.

wingedcatgirl I'm helping! from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
I'm helping!
#3281: Jan 10th 2021 at 6:55:23 PM

As we already mentioned in the report, a whole lot of it was added relatively recently by ~Njein in particular.

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
Libraryseraph Showtime! from Canada (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
Showtime!
#3282: Jan 11th 2021 at 9:47:17 AM

I'd also say the extended rant about how people with low empathy are a real life example should go just for all the rocej violations

Absolute destiny... apeachalypse?
whizzerd Transcender of Gender from Scotland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just high on the world
Transcender of Gender
#3283: Jan 11th 2021 at 12:53:45 PM

I was the one who brought up this issue in ATT. I agree that the parts about low empathy people IRL needs to go.

These paragraphs mainly seem to talk about how the trope intersects with various other tropes, so they can either be moved to Analysis or cut completely:

Greedy villains may content themselves with bribing the hero. After all, justice and revenge aren't shiny and don't get a good exchange rate. Yet The Hero goes and turns down the Briefcase Full of Money or a share in the proceeds of a robbery. Indeed, villains solely motivated by greed, power or ambition can never find true happiness, and even if they become successful, they'll inevitably squander those gains for more power.

The Green-Eyed Monster and those Driven by Envy often think The Hero is equally preoccupied with whatever inspired their envy. Villains can be expected to think the person they envy is as jealous with them as the other way around, and even that they deliberately excel in order to rub the envious character's nose into it.

The Fundamentalist-type Knight Templar won't realize that other people differ about the relative values of what they support versus what they're willing to sacrifice for its sake, wrongly assume they're the "good guy" (when they're obviously not), and don't understand why Pay Evil unto Evil in the name of "law, order and justice" would be morally wrong. Most Knight Templars are convinced that Might Makes Right, and that since they are good they only kill the evil, so if you beat them but don't kill them, you are good too. Trying to reason with one isn't much good either, because many Knight Templar types believe that you're With Us or Against Us. After all, they are certain that only their cause is noble, and those in their way is at best a deluded fool who needs to be "purged" or at worst, an evildoer who needs to die.

When the Hero interrupts an Attempted Rape, the would-be rapist may propose an easy solution: join in! Cue heroic beatdown.

Those setting up a heroics scam in order to achieve the fame and glory they seek at all costs want a large reward for the "heroics" they did, but they never realize what it truly means to be a superhero. They only focus on the "super" part of a superhero, not realizing that it takes real qualities like morality, self-sacrifice, humility and Good Feels Good in order to become a true hero. True heroes always care about the people they are saving and, while they may be susceptible to thrill-seeking and the limelight, they don't let that override their sense of duty and empathy.

Innocent Bystanders and Mooks leave the villain even more certain. A Doomed Moral Victor's inspiration or a Heroic Bystander will flabbergast these villains, as will a Mook's Heel–Face Turn that is inspired by the hero's example, or a Mook who proves that Even Evil Has Standards. Indeed, he may help the Mook along by threatening their loved ones.

Never underestimate The Power of Love and The Power of Friendship. True friendship requires acts of kindness and thoughtfulness, which is selfless and understanding. Being self-centered makes it nearly impossible for a villain to understand or embrace the necessary demands of friendship and love, as they find such concepts to be laughable and/or as distractions. They tend to believe in self-preservation and individualism above all things, act in their own self-interest, believe competition makes them more successful, and assume heroes "enslave" people to an arbitrary system of rules and dogma. Pride is by nature competitive, pitting the arrogant villain against everyone — they simply can't understand The Power of Friendship, which is a form of love, placing it beyond the realm of their understanding. Plus, while the villain may be surrounded by countless lackeys and toadies whom he keeps them in line via threats or outright violence, the hero has True Companions, love interests and friends who are willing to help them even in dire situations and enable them to defeat the baddies.

[...]

The Social Darwinist of the Might Makes Right variety thinks Misery Builds Character and believes that competition, suffering and struggle make the individual, and possibly society as a whole, superior. They believe in Evil Virtues like cunning, ruthlessness, opportunism and the ability to endure and survive by any means necessary, and view the world as a harsh and cynical place in which Hobbes Was Right. However, they tend to undervalue things like love, kindness or pacifism. Their attitude drives away everyone, preventing them from making genuine friendships, and thus are truly Lonely at the Top because they always think cooperation makes one look weak. This belief in cutthroat dog-eat-dog-ism and hidden agendas also renders them incapable of understanding true love.

Utopia Justifies the Means fanatics and other such Well Intentioned Extremists will often kid themselves into denying the possibility of any ethos that isn't by-any-means-necessary both to salve their aching consciences when they cross the Moral Event Horizon and to chalk up any obvious good their ideological opponents do to mere Pragmatic Villainy.

The Nietzsche Wannabe aka Straw Nihilist always assumes it's a Crapsack World out there, and often uses No Good Deed Goes Unpunished and Being Good Sucks as Freudian Excuses on why they have a nihilistic outlook on life.

[...]

Those stuck in Chronic Villainy tend to relapse back to their evil ways and believe that joining the good side makes them soft and weak, hence why they choose being the ruthless villain, but this stops them from seeking redemption. They would be very happy to redeem themselves, but their anger or self-hatred means that they can never accept being good.

[...]

The God of Evil, Satan, or other beings that are Made of Evil are normally shown as being incapable of understanding things like compassion or goodness. In this case, pure evil cannot understand something that their nature renders them unable to experience themselves. This is Older Than Feudalism: The Bible often depicts the Devil in this fashion, where he's unable to appeal to anything other than selfish desires when manipulating humans. This is often the reason a Deal with the Devil fails; the deal maker's inability to understand good leaves a loophole that someone who can is able to take advantage of, or simply offer something that doesn't truly matter to the target. Likewise, The Corrupter has a tendency for entering bargains with the intent of helping the other person in the short term, but screwing them over in the long term. However, they are more likely to go into a Villainous Breakdown if they are definitively rejected and/or if The Hero somehow manages to Take a Third Option. Also, their obsession with pointlessly backstabbing others they deal with means that over time, fewer and fewer people are willing to enter into deals with them, until they eventually run out of the souls they need to scam.

These paragraphs don't seem to have anything to do with Evil Cannot Comprehend Good (mostly because they seem to equate 'being good' with 'being happy' or 'forming meaningful relationships', and are instead just examinations of other villainous tropes:

One weakness typically ascribed to the force of evil is that it cannot create. The Power of Creation is seen as positive and Good, but Evil Is Sterile. In other words, it cannot create, cannot imagine or have new ideas, certainly cannot produce new forms of life, because Creating Life Is Awesome. It may be able to propagate, but only in the manner of The Virus or The Corruption, by turning everything into more of itself, without the possibility of evolution, or the retention of the unique qualities that once inhabited what existed before. Ultimately, the possibility of making something new and different is anathema to it.

[...]

The Corrupt Corporate Executive is a Bad Boss who abuses their workers, uses shortcuts to drive competitors out of business, and makes decisions based on short-term profit rather than the long-term financial health of the company. But while they made their way to the top of the food chain by ruthlessness and greed, they never realize they're left Lonely at the Top, and that they have no actual friends, only devoted and sycophantic YesMen who can be easily replaced at their whim due to the CCE chasing after money day-in day-out. Of course, power and money can provide the CCE with short-term material comforts and gains, but it will never give them true happiness. Also, the CCE could have realized the errors they made over their career by placing their close relations over money, but because they chose to squander and alienate said relationships, it has made them a bitter shell of themselves. Thus, the CCE is unable to reconcile what they did with their current position, and as a result, is never able to fully enjoy their success.

The Rich Want to Be Richer by all means possible. They're intent on gaining more money to their fortune, even if they are wealthy enough to die in luxury. Simply put, enough is never enough for them, and they'll use underhanded means to obtain that wealth, even if it meant squandering their relations. As with the CCE, they don't realize that by placing material comforts over spiritual needs, this is the reason why they're miserable.

When a villain is pursuing a goal, they have two ways of earning money: the legitimate method of earning it may be slow, difficult, or unprofitable, while at the same time there's an illegal or unethical option that offers quicker gains to whoever can get away with it. Of course, the villain could get away via the legitimate route, but since their minds are driven by a desire to earn money quickly, their obvious potential for lawful income is wasted on criminal pursuits. The baddie fails at beating the heroes because they never realize their intellect and hard work might mean they'd get a lot more done if they did an honest day's work. The heroes sometimes lampshade it with "If only they used their powers for good, instead of for evil."

[...]

Villains with a history of Chronic Backstabbing Disorder always think the other side will inevitably betray them. However, their tendency to betray at critical moments quickly spreads wide and far to the point no one trusts them when they genuinely try to redeem themselves. Being that they're quite distrustful of others, the backstabber's cynical belief of hidden agendas is the reason why they don't form or have any meaningful relationships. Likewise, due to their abrasive attitude and inability to form meaningful relationships, everyone avoids the Jerk with a Heart of Jerk Manipulative Bastard like a plague lest they get tricked by them.

While the Consummate Liar might make blatantly false or contradictory statements to get what they want in the short term, but when they are exposed due to their deceptive nature, the liar might try to make another lie to patch up the original lie. Because of this, nobody trusts them due to their pathological habit of telling falsehoods. Even when the Consummate Liar finally realizes where their habit has led them and actually tells the truth, they're still seen as distrustful.

they/them || "Forgive me, regent of queer amphibians" - Lt.BGob
Malady (Not-So-Newbie)
#3284: Jan 11th 2021 at 8:00:27 PM

How to integrate the concept of works being released in Anachronic Order, to the Trivia Sequel First for when sequels are released first in markets, not generally?

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LaundryPizza03 Maintenance? from Texas Since: Aug, 2020
Maintenance?
#3285: Jan 14th 2021 at 3:40:26 AM

Valkyries is sorely lacking. It does not explain the characteristics of this trope.

I'm back!
Serac she/her Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
she/her
#3286: Jan 15th 2021 at 11:32:07 AM

Last month, ~JKBenbot capitalized all instances of "nerf" in its description. I have no idea why, but I intend to revert this change, as I have never seen anyone talked about how the developers of a game NERFed a character.

mightymewtron Angry babby from New New York Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Angry babby
#3287: Jan 15th 2021 at 11:41:11 AM

[up] Yeah, it's not capitalized as it's not even an acronym or anything, it's named after the foam gun.

I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
alnair20aug93 🍊orange fursona🧡 from Furrypines (Long Runner) Relationship Status: Chocolate!
🍊orange fursona🧡
#3289: Jan 17th 2021 at 5:57:27 AM

I have come across Vampire Musicals today, and it was Featured at the Home Page today. And when I checked it out, I have found out that its description is a stub, and I don't how or why Vampire Musicals won't work other than their musicals flopped in Broadway. Sounds like complaining and stuff, and its description hasn't changed for more than a decade.

ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
Malady (Not-So-Newbie)
#3290: Jan 17th 2021 at 8:03:17 AM

I just noticed this on Harder Than Hard... This seems a bit too specific?

If someone wants that info as a trope, I'm not against a "Warning The Player" trope for like what usually happens with Point of No Return.

Harder Than Hard mode is a Difficulty Level not even supposed to be fair, and the developers make this clear by warning the player. To qualify for this trope, a difficulty level needs to be above an existing "hard" difficulty, then explicitly indicate that it was not adequately play-tested, or might be unwinnable at that setting, or some blood-curdling warning along the lines of "don't play this". An inversion of Surprise Difficulty, in that the game makes clear just how hard things are going to get.

Edited by Malady on Jan 17th 2021 at 8:03:33 AM

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wingedcatgirl I'm helping! from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
I'm helping!
#3291: Jan 17th 2021 at 8:15:39 AM

That was done a few months ago by ~Spark 9, changing them from "commonly associated with this trope" to "core part of the definition".

Edited by wingedcatgirl on Jan 17th 2021 at 10:15:58 AM

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
Serac she/her Since: Mar, 2016 Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
she/her
#3292: Jan 17th 2021 at 9:24:53 AM

[up][up][up] It's already on Tropes Needing TRS for just being "this is a list of musicals that happen to have vampires in them" as well as only existing to complain. And I feel like the featured trope needs some oversight if that's what it picked.

Edited by Serac on Jan 17th 2021 at 11:26:19 AM

wingedcatgirl I'm helping! from lurking (Holding A Herring) Relationship Status: Oh my word! I'm gay!
I'm helping!
#3293: Jan 17th 2021 at 9:35:14 AM

Could've sworn featured tropes were picked manually.

Trouble Cube continues to be a general-purpose forum for those who desire such a thing.
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#3294: Jan 17th 2021 at 4:31:12 PM

This is probably more of a subject for Wiki Talk, but a lot of front page stuff has had very poor quality control in the past. The Featured Trope feature joining that list would not surprise me.

Malady (Not-So-Newbie)
#3295: Jan 17th 2021 at 9:04:33 PM

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeugma_and_syllepsis

Type 2 Zeugma is Ambiguous Syntax, no?

Given that I had an example...

  • BoxxyQuest: The Shifted Spires: The Flavor Text for Flareshot, using the meanings of "[shoots X]" as "thing that is fired" and "things that are fired at", where the former is interpreted as the latter to make some Abnormal Ammo:
    A burning bow that shoots magical burning arrows and frightened, soon-to-be-burning enemies.

Edited by Malady on Jan 17th 2021 at 9:05:52 AM

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Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#3296: Jan 17th 2021 at 10:50:38 PM

[up] No, there's no ambiguity. If anything, it's closer to Bait-and-Switch. Or if it's used multiple times in one way and then used a different way, The Last Of These Is Not Like The Others (which mentions zeugmas in the description).

Malady (Not-So-Newbie)
#3297: Jan 18th 2021 at 3:53:54 AM

So, my example, that's already on the page, is Zeugma, but not Ambiguous Syntax? If so, then I'm fine with removing it.

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Malady (Not-So-Newbie)
#3299: Jan 18th 2021 at 7:22:04 PM

[up] - However, do we agree that my Boxxy Quest example is at least Double Meaning? Possibly a Pun?


How to connect Get A Hold Of Yourself Man to Not Listening to Me, Are You?? I've got someone who's trying to shock someone back to sanity, but non-violently.

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WarJay77 Big Catch, Sparkle Edition from The Void (Troper Knight) Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Big Catch, Sparkle Edition
#3300: Jan 20th 2021 at 12:53:37 PM

I have a gripe with Only in Florida. It was recently made NRLEP, but the description focuses almost exclusively on real-life.

Current Project: Incorruptible Pure Pureness

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