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LordSomebodythe103rd
topic
06:48:58 AM Nov 17th 2014
edited by 128.109.70.178
Um... as a Jew, shouldn't we have an umbrella page for the Tanakh, to differentiate it from the New Testament? It seems like a lot of the content of this page and it's relatives (see: YMMV) are written from a Christian perspective, and since the New Testament changes a LOT (I.E. Elaborating on Satan, introducing the trinity), the way the Bible is interpreted changes a LOT (i.e. the interpretation of God's gender, the nature of sin, what sorts of consequences exist, etc.). Even if a whole alternate article is out of the question, pages for the books of the Tanakh besides Genesis and Exodus would be nice. Even a combined page for the remaining books, since a lot of those are either giving commandments or a recap. It feels rude to have my cultural holy books get glossed over like that, even though my interest is more on the intellectual/literary side of things.
-_-
topic
12:09:11 AM Jul 16th 2014
Why The Bible is in "Literature" and not in "Religion"?

SeptimusHeap
moderator
01:38:42 AM Jul 16th 2014
Because we are troping the work, not the religion. Taking The Bible as a work also reduces Flame Bait and the like.
-_-
03:13:20 AM Jul 16th 2014
But it's not a work like Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings! and myths of other religion are under "Religion and Mythology".
SeptimusHeap
moderator
03:27:17 AM Jul 16th 2014
The Bible's a work, yes. That there is a religion attached to it is not an important difference for our purposes.
LogoP
04:15:21 AM Jul 16th 2014
edited by 79.103.139.116
Classical Mythology is not a single work and, thus, can't go under literature. Religion- inspired works such as The Iliad & The Odyssey do, however. Same deal with the The Qur'an and other religious texts.

Besides, Useful Notes/Christianity exists outside the literature index.
Codafett
topic
10:41:14 AM May 7th 2014
Why does it feel like a lot of the Bible examples are just barely containing any pent up aggravation towards the religions and beliefs involved?
ChaoticBrain
topic
05:57:44 PM Apr 19th 2014
edited by 24.13.200.117
<post removed>
SvartiKotturinn
topic
03:13:18 PM Apr 11th 2014
edited by 77.127.206.166
Motion to add Hereditary Curse, given specifically to Ham by his father Noah (which some Orthodox Jews see as still valid today) and a recurrent theme appearing as Yahweh’s most popular form of punishment in Kings I-II (but not in Chronicles I-II, which retells the Kings part with the punishment being individualistic), along with the inverse saying that he rewards people’s offsprings for their ancestors actions for many more generations ahead.
SeptimusHeap
moderator
11:05:46 PM Apr 11th 2014
Feel free to ask here.
TheLyniezian
topic
12:39:17 PM Dec 9th 2013
The Jacob Marley Warning example is inaccurate: the rich man, in hell, was addressing Abraham, not God.
Perseus78
topic
04:05:00 PM Jun 20th 2013
edited by 69.172.221.4
Romans Chapter 1 flatly says that all proffessed Atheists are Nay Theists

Excuse the long quote

"18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,[g] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen."

SDY225
topic
07:18:38 PM Jun 16th 2013
Maybe just a quibble, but Lucifer gives an example of a name and that fallen angel stuff isn't in the Bible.

I guess "Book of Milton" will eventually be included given that everyone seems to assume that stuff is "canon" but...
KingTwelveSixteen
topic
03:18:31 PM May 17th 2013
So, I was reading this here trope page when I came across something. The Bible is a trope maker for a bunch of different tropes (and says such on the page), but nowhere on this site that I can find is a list of which tropes it is the maker of!

It only appears a single time on the trope makers page and only then to say that another work isn't the trope maker for that trope. If it really is a trope maker as the page claims (which I think it is), then it should have which tropes it made listed somewhere.
Draezeth
topic
11:35:11 PM Apr 15th 2013
I'd like to request an edit to Always Chaotic Evil. Satan falls more under Neutral or Lawful evil.
Telcontar
moderator
12:27:33 AM Apr 16th 2013
Edit requests go here. Be sure to write up the new example as you wish it to appear on the page.
BassballBatman
topic
10:44:23 PM Apr 10th 2013
edited by 216.99.32.45
I don't suppose it's very fair or polite wording toward the copyists — if only I could find a kinder alternative to this trope name — but here goes:
  • "Blind Idiot" Translation: Controversy arises over who killed Goliath and which giant Elhanan killed. The copyists wrote that Elhanan struck down Lahmi, the brother of Goliath in I Chronicles 20:5. But in II Samuel 21:19, Goliath is the giant Elhanan killed and "Lahmi" is part of "Bethlehemi'te" as Elhanan's designation.
    II Sam 21:19: בית הלחמי את [Beyth HaLachmi Eth] — the Bethlehemite (within subject)
    I Chron 20:5: את לחמי אחי [Eth Lachmi Achiy] — (direct object) Lahmi, the brother of
    • Since David killed Goliath, the account in I Chronicles is more likely the correct one — Lahmi as direct object, not within the subject.
    • Likely, in II Samuel, the accusative sentence-divider "Eth" before "Lahmi" was mistaken for "Beth" (hence Bethlehemite) and "Eth" after "Lahmi" is a misreading of "brother of" (as the Hebrew letters look a lot alike).
Again, no offense to the copyists, since they may have never had the chance to meet up and compare accounts. I just left the trope name the way I found it.
Narsil
topic
04:21:36 PM Apr 1st 2013
edited by Narsil
One that needs removing:

  • Ironic Name: Ahab means love, King Ahab is one of the most evil men in the Bible.

Not true (the "means love" part). Yes, "Ahava" means "love", but that's with a "heh" (ה) soft-H, "אהבה". "Ahab" uses a different letter, for a rough "ch" sound (like "loch"): "אחאב". (That's spelled with a "ח", the "ch" sound.) Etymologically, the two have nothing to do with each other. (The actual etymology of Ahab's name is unknown.)

In Hebrew, the name wouldn't be "ironic", because to a Hebrew speaker, "achav" (the king's name) doesn't sound enough like "ahava" ("love") for there to be confusion, or even a pun. And in Greek/Latin/English, "Ahab" doesn't sound like "love", either. It's only ironic if you know just a tiny bit of Hebrew.
Telcontar
moderator
01:45:20 AM Apr 2nd 2013
Please take edit requests here so the mods can see them. I've posted these ones for you.
Narsil
11:13:58 AM Apr 2nd 2013
Ah, thanks! Sorry, I didn't know the right place to do it. (Nice of Telcontar to lend Narsil a hand, as it were... ;-) )
Telcontar
moderator
11:29:09 AM Apr 2nd 2013
'Tis okay; thanks in turn for contributing to the wiki! (XD Surely it should be you helping me out, trusty sword.)
Narsil
topic
03:39:29 PM Apr 1st 2013
Could a moderator add Please Shoot the Messenger? Suggested text:

  • Please Shoot the Messenger: King David gets Uriah out of the way by sending him back to camp with dispatches for the general, Joab. Joab's orders: "Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die."
Dingbot
topic
11:51:19 PM Mar 31st 2013
edited by Dingbot
Nice to see that TV Tropes' crew is keeping things respectful and classy, especially as it relates to religion. I'm glad you guys are working to minimize flame wars; makes this site a better place to waste hours upon hours of my life. Thanks!
T448Eight
topic
04:54:31 PM Mar 12th 2013
The Reviews need to be erased and locked. I'm an atheist but that's going to turn a lot of people from the site and offend them. Not good.
LordHerobrine
10:42:49 AM May 4th 2014
That would also prove a case for about any book on religion to have their reviews erased and locked. Even worse.
Willbyr
moderator
topic
09:51:20 AM Feb 9th 2013
There are many Zero Context Examples on the page, but since this was pointed out to me in a PM, I'll move it here for discussion/elaboration. Once it's fleshed out sufficiently, it can be put back on the page.

gallium
06:50:42 PM Aug 15th 2013
The Roman Catholic and Orthodox Bibles include several Old Testament books that are not included in most Protestant bibles. The various Orthodox churches include several more books that neither Catholics nor Protestants include. There is broad agreement among Christian dominations about the New Testament canon (that was pretty much settled in the 2nd century) but a lot of stuff was cut out, like the Gospels of Peter and James. Then there's the Book of Mormon, which is recognized by the LDS Church (and its offshoots) but not by other Christian denominations. Seems like this trope is easily justified. Wikipedia has a lot about this.
SchizoTechnician
08:30:35 PM Aug 15th 2013
That is only the very, very tip of the iceberg. As in, first few inches of an iceberg that goes down for miles.

Jews: Everything after Chronicles II is noncanon.

Christians (Non-Mormon): Everything after Revelation is noncanon.

Muslims: Everything in Broad Strokes, some parts accurate, other parts never happened

Mormons: The Qu'ran never happened, the Book of Mormon did

And, of course, the wars, pogroms, holocausts, crusades, and many badly made Very Special Episode that come out of this disagreement.
yonderfork
topic
11:56:57 AM Nov 20th 2012
Should we really have a review section? That could tick a lot of people off.
chasemaddigan
03:42:55 PM Dec 7th 2012
I agree. The fact we had to lock the main page because of subjective matter is enough of a reason. The main page is not even supposed to have subjective material and you allow a section that allows people to give their opinion on a book that is that is the basis of over 2 billion lives? Trolling and anti-Christianity statements aren't just possible, not just inevitable, but an invitation.
SquigPie
03:30:26 PM Jan 11th 2013
edited by SquigPie
Agreed, cut it.

At least the last review was pretty funny
LordHerobrine
10:51:05 AM May 4th 2014
Objectively looking at the reviews on the Bible in literature, this troper does not see the point of removing something on the possibility that it can be exploit it. Looking back through all the reviews, they are all, in fact, quite thorough, and each reviewer has taken the time to try and place their point in a non-combative manner. As long as this continues, then its the responses to the reviews which might be the only means of scrutiny.

Even those are pretty clean, as people make a distinct habit of keeping stuff on topic. It is clear to anyone that the Bible, Koran, and just about any religious text out there is subject to every trick in the book and then some, in the way of critiquing. Now, only if this is being abused would TV Tropes have ample reason to remove it.

This troper also believes that if tvtropes allowed the Bible on the page to begin with, then they are full well aware of the mass internet backdraft that is possible. If this doesn't bother them, then it must be monitored.

Which means that they are ok with it.
yonderfork
topic
11:56:56 AM Nov 20th 2012
Should we really have a review section? That could tick a lot of people off.
Zemyla
topic
11:38:19 AM Aug 1st 2012
Can we add a stinger at the bottom of the page? "The grace of the Lord Jesus be with God's people. Amen." Revelations 22:21.
seven7star
topic
07:33:08 PM Jun 20th 2012
Also, what about adding the Pharisees as The Fundamentalist? It's said that they condemn other people's sins without mercy, are hypocritical and corrupt. Fits the trope right? Modern day Christians have even compared modern day batshit fundies to the Pharisees.
seven7star
topic
03:08:04 PM Jun 18th 2012
Could we add Reasonable Authority Figure for Pontius Pilate? The Bible said that he didn't think Jesus was a threat and tried several times to pardon him with a lesser sentence. The only reason he finally had Jesus crucified was because the Pharisees bullied him into it by threatening to tell Caesar that a king of the Jews was threatening his rule.
Jordan
03:15:00 PM Jun 18th 2012
edited by Jordan
Yeah, the Bible says a lot of things. That is very far from an accurate presentation of what the man was actually like (to cut a long story short, he was recalled because his methods were so brutal that Rome feared he was likely to spark rebellion).

Edit- Thinking that was an overly hostile response. Basically, because of the above, if he's added as an example, it should be in the sense that The Bible/whichever Gospel (John?) presents him in that manner.
LordGro
03:24:43 PM Jun 18th 2012
Tangentially relevant — note that we also have a separate page for The Four Gospels.
seven7star
07:22:27 PM Jun 20th 2012
How about something like this?

  • Reasonable Authority Figure: Regardless of historical records, when it came to Jesus at least, the Bible presents Pontius Pilate as being this. He tried several times to have Jesus pardoned and only had him executed because the Pharisees threatened to tell Rome that a king of the Jews was rising up.

It mentions historical accuracy while leaving enough room for the possibility of the Bible being right in this respect.
LordGro
01:49:40 AM Jun 21st 2012
It's right that the Bible is remarkably mild on Pontius Pilate, trying to exculpate him at the costs of the High Priests and the Jewish crowd. However, in the end he does order Jesus' crucifixion, even though he thinks Jesus is innocent.

There's Values Dissonance here — we would still think a judge condemning an innocent man to death for political reasons a bad man. The Gospels seem to imply that he did enough to save Jesus.

I would, therefore, in your example, prefer the wording "the Bible tries to present Pontius Pilate as being this"; for I guess it is subjective whether it works.
seven7star
10:19:10 AM Jun 21st 2012
That would probably be even better. It would probably be worth mentioning that he probably felt remorse fro killing Jesus, which is necesarry for salvation in the Bible.
Quatic
topic
11:48:44 AM May 7th 2012
Berserk Button — ought this not include God as well, who was so set off by man's warlike nature that he drowned every man, woman, child, animal, and plant on the planet (except a select handful).
MrDeath
12:11:07 PM May 7th 2012
That's not what Berserk Button means. Berserk Button means a really minor thing that makes a character flip out disproportionately whenever it comes up.
seven7star
02:57:28 PM Jun 18th 2012
The Bible says the entire world was utterly depraved. It's hardly a Berserk Button if the entire world is totally corrupt.
Ometta6
03:49:53 PM Jan 13th 2013
edited by Ometta6
Although, considering God's nature, wouldn't the entire human race being corrupt really only count as a Berserk Button? He did create it, supposedly, what's to say he doesn't just see it as his favorite characters in a TV show he really likes getting killed off?
Grasshopper
topic
11:05:31 PM Apr 3rd 2012
"And later the Christianity of Constantine, who simply threw Jesus on the pile of gods he already worshipped." Could somebody please remove this? It's inaccurate (Feel free to prove me wrong there if you can) and more than a little offensive to those who revere Constantine as a saint. Please fix the spelling if nothing else.
OldManHoOh
topic
05:53:49 AM Jan 31st 2012
edited by OldManHoOh
  • Ain't No Rule: May qualify as Loophole Abuse. Many perhaps odd-sounding laws in the Old Testament—those regarding sex, for example — were likely designed to prevent this.

  • Biggus Dickus: "For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses." (Ezekiel 23:20)

  • Omniglot: One of the powers of true believers, according to Fanon, along with the ability to drink anything poisonous, exorcise demons, heal the sick, and for truest of true believers Nigh-Invulnerability against demons and evil spirits! A few American groups interpret the source for this one (speaking in tounges) to mean a language absolutely nobody on Earth understands. No-one seems to know why.

These need clarifying. I'm not familiar enough with the book to request their removal (or rename) on the "Edit request for a locked page" thread.
MrDeath
07:13:50 AM Jan 31st 2012
For the first, there are some suspiciously specific rules in there, borderling Obvious Rules Patch.

For the second, a rough translation is, "They were hung like donkeys"

As for the third, it seems pretty straightforward, though I'd question what the thing about American groups is about.
morenohijazo
topic
05:05:14 AM Jan 16th 2012
Newly created trope: Prodigal Hero. It's the trope namer, and the examples (explained on the page) should be added as well.
Camacan
moderator
topic
11:35:04 PM Jan 8th 2012
Missing details. Moving 'em to discussion. Please see How to Write an Example. Ho Yay in particular needs lots of in-work specifics because subjectivity is so very easy. We need to know exactly what part of the narrative plays with the idea of a homosexual relationship while definitely stopping short of portraying one. Consider the possibility it is Ho Yay Shipping.

  • Ho Yay: There are books dedicated to teasing homoerotic subtext out of David and Jonathan. And then there are more books dedicated to discrediting these! And there are other books trying to explain how this is possible without "man lying with man as with woman". Serious Business all around.
  • What Happened to the Mouse?: Holy relics are full of this.
MangaManiac
topic
03:28:04 AM Nov 6th 2011
Should this be in the Literature namespace? I know we put The Book of Mormon there and are trying to namespace all works...
SeptimusHeap
moderator
11:38:51 AM Dec 14th 2011
I did it. The main page is now a redirect.
pittsburghmuggle
topic
08:59:43 AM Nov 5th 2011
Suggestion: Add "It's Been Done" because Ecclesiastes says quite a few times that there is nothing new under the sun.
TARINunit9
topic
04:37:26 PM Oct 12th 2011
Suggestion: Add "Continuity Porn: Almost everything the Gospels say about Jesus contains a deliberate Call Back to the Prophetic Books." They write entire books about the number of times the Bible does this
LiberatedLiberater
05:29:58 AM Oct 28th 2011
aranamor
topic
11:29:54 AM Oct 3rd 2011
Would it be fair to add God and The Devil are Both Jerks to this page? They both give plenty of evidence to it, and while God is more of a designated hero than outright evil, he's still an asshole to the greater part of humanity.
LiberatedLiberater
05:30:10 AM Oct 28th 2011
Semicorrect
topic
05:21:57 AM Oct 1st 2011
Well, since this is locked and all, could somebody with the authority to do so add A Child Shall Lead Them to the list of Trope Namers?
LiberatedLiberater
05:29:20 AM Oct 28th 2011
edited by LiberatedLiberater
Dragonmouth
topic
11:08:15 AM Sep 16th 2011
Could somebody add "Go and Sin No More" to the Trope Namer list?
LiberatedLiberater
05:29:18 AM Oct 28th 2011
Ghost2267
topic
06:11:56 PM Aug 26th 2011
Time Abyss is a trope that should be added to The Bible. God being stated as the creator of the universe and a timeless entity that always has existed and always will definitely fits the bill. I'm surprised no one added that before it was locked due to the editing wars.
CourierKnew
topic
01:42:12 PM Jul 18th 2011
Stealth Hi Bye: Philip sort of does this in Acts 8:38-40
SpellBlade
05:33:44 PM Jul 18th 2011
TwinBird
topic
01:01:50 PM Jul 16th 2011
edited by TwinBird
This should be removed:

It's a log of an apocalypse (in both senses), but that's not what we've defined "Apocalyptic Log" to mean. Apocalyptic Log is used around the wiki to mean a diary describing what killed the author, and although most traditions hold that he died soon after, it wasn't from the revelation so much as just, you know, being a hundred years old in the freaking Roman Empire.

I'm just really sick of people using "examples" based on the name that don't meet the description. Why do they do this?
SpellBlade
05:33:37 PM Jul 18th 2011
TropeADope
topic
01:49:40 PM Jul 6th 2011
Why, under "Back From the Dead," is Jesus' name hidden as a spoiler? Of all the possible resurrection tropes, this has to be the most well-known or frequently-referenced one outside of Dracula movies.
MrDeath
01:50:51 PM Jul 6th 2011
That's the joke.
Lagore
topic
06:25:45 PM Jun 27th 2011
I just created a new trope, and it fits this article. So can someone please add

To this article for me?

I can't add it myself since someone seems to think it's a good idea to lock articles and cripple them in such a way that useful information cannot be added. Not that I'm bitter or anything...
SpellBlade
05:33:29 PM Jul 18th 2011
RussianCharlotte
topic
07:00:38 PM Jun 23rd 2011
Technically, one could argue that the Bible provides the first known example of "My Own Grampa:" because of God (the Father), the Virgin Mary concieved Jesus, the son of God, one aspect of the Holy Trinity (possible "Hecate Sisters" situation- God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one being), although it's more "My Own Dad" than Grampa.
lawwellsy
topic
07:29:30 AM Jun 8th 2011
Two things I'd like to point out:

1 - 3 is a pretty important arc number/memetic number. When three rocks up, so does God.

2 - Under the trope "The Messiah", the description states:

"(Many, including the Messianic Archetype, Jesus.) Three big ones. Jesus, Mohammed (technically a prophet, rather than a messiah, but fulfilling a similar narrative role), and the nameless "moshiach", or messiah of the Jews, who don't accept the cannonicity of the New Testement. The last one one has only appeared in previews and foreshadowing, so we're still waiting on the next sequel to provide his name."

Mohammed doesn't appear in the Bible, so what's he doing here? Probably better to go with:

The Messiah - Plenty of examples fit the trope, but while Jews say that the moshiach (capital-M Messiah) is yet to come, Christians say it is Jesus (link Jesus to Messianic Archetype).

And yes, that use of (is Jesus) is purposeful. Change it if you must, but that's how I write it.

Thank you.
ading
09:51:32 AM Mar 18th 2013
Agreed.
pittsburghmuggle
topic
03:46:38 PM May 27th 2011
Request to add:

  • Wall of Text: While everyone is aware that the Bible is revered by many as having all the answers, many people are shocked at how much text in it is history, etc and not wisdom.
SpellBlade
05:33:11 PM Jul 18th 2011
Vidor
topic
04:09:56 AM May 9th 2011
edited by Vidor
A Date with Rosie Palms: Onan, Genesis 38:8-10. He "spilled his seed upon the ground" rather than knock a girl up. See onanism.

Flipping the Table: Jesus does this with the moneychangers in the Temple.
SpellBlade
05:33:05 PM Jul 18th 2011
SammiJ
topic
02:48:43 PM Mar 24th 2011
We need to add Friend to All Children for Jesus.
74.192.216.246
03:14:42 PM Apr 17th 2011
And Obfuscating Insanity for David (he faked it, and it worked!)

SpellBlade
03:16:33 PM Apr 17th 2011
ImpudentInfidel
topic
08:53:45 AM Mar 21st 2011
Could we add something under In the Original Klingon for people who seriously state that it was written in English, usually using the legendarily inaccurate King James version as the standard?
LokIago
topic
11:04:51 AM Feb 20th 2011
edited by LokIago
Being that this page is edit locked (makes sense to me, bastards on both sides), could someone please note in the "Arc Numbers" and "Memetic Number" segment that 40 is a Jewish euphamism for "we lost count"? Any time the number 40 is used, it means an undefined, but pretty long/large, amount of time/things.
EponymousKid
05:57:05 PM Feb 20th 2011
Seven is also used in a similar matter throughout the book, for that matter.
OneGyT
topic
01:18:50 PM Jan 28th 2011
Someone add Paul of Tarsus to the Badass list. Fighting wild beasts in Ephesus; being stoned, dragged out of the city, and left for dead only for his followers to find him very much alive later on.
Alloflifedecays
topic
07:33:30 AM Dec 19th 2010
edited by Alloflifedecays
While I appreciate that this is probably too controversial to put, can I point out that there should be an [1] entry about how the Jesus myth is often said to be based off of Ancient Egyptian stories about Horus, even down to small details: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5d.htm

While I appreciate that this will be controversial, that it may be true should at least count for something. This article is about examining the Bible as a work of media, and examined only in this context, this edit is valid.
Anima
topic
10:35:54 PM Oct 31st 2010
I'd like to add the following:

"The Reason You Suck" Speech: Matthew 23 was this from Jesus against the Pharisees.
fawn
topic
09:58:53 PM Oct 18th 2010
edited by fawn
Can a mod add lazarus under Disney Death?

Also, we have pages for Archangel Gabriel and Archangel Michael. I assume that would go under Trope Namer.

Edit: Also, can they add:
Anaheyla
07:36:35 PM Oct 21st 2010
Disney Death is when someone appears to have died and it is subsequently revealed that they are Not Quite Dead.

Lazarus actually did die, but He Got Better
fawn
07:41:44 PM Oct 21st 2010
So did Jesus.
Anima
topic
02:01:25 AM Oct 15th 2010
I need an admin to edit something very, very minor because I am a horrible, horrible nitpick.

Trope Overdosed was parabombed. It needs a bullet.
70.119.12.223
topic
07:39:07 PM Oct 8th 2010
Add to Ain't No Rule at the end

"Intrestingly, Leviticus 18 22 has a blatant gap on lesbian relationships, which may or may not be intended."

I'd suggest intended have a pot hole to some STD related trope, but I can't find an appropriate one0

Also, the secret word thingy is "godliest"
asterselene
topic
07:24:32 PM Sep 30th 2010
Look, I understand that there are people who would love to treat the Bible like a fictional work. The problem I have with this is the "fictional". As a Christian, I'm perfectly fine with applying tropes to it like any other piece of literature, but the way this is stylized acts like every single thing on here never happened and it's all a fantasy story thought up by delusional people with faith. Can we please fix the tone in the article at least?
SchizoTechnician
09:40:34 PM Sep 30th 2010
edited by SchizoTechnician
Only if the Qu'ran, the Book of Mormon, the Baghavad Ghita, and the Eddas get the same act-as-if-they-were-historical treatment; otherwise we lose impartiality.

On a less rudely sarcastic note, this is why it was locked. I saw it as having been edited to remove too much of the tongue-in-cheek fictional gags, for example, and got into an edit war (also involving a horrible horrible misstake of mine in one specific area) over it.

In other words, some of us want to pull it more in the fictional direction, and you want to pull it more in the literal direction. To keep the two of us and our ideological kindred from honor-bound edit war, this page was locked in the first place.
asterselene
08:37:50 PM Oct 13th 2010
edited by asterselene
I'm perfectly fine with the Qu'ran, the Book of Mormon, the Baghavad Ghita, and the Eddas getting fictional treatment lifted! By attempting to go too far into the fictional direction, people get offended. I understand this is TV Tropes, but we're talking about religion here. By applying sarcasm and humor to it, you are essentially mocking people's beliefs.
SchizoTechnician
07:44:08 PM Oct 21st 2010
edited by SchizoTechnician
Where do you draw the line between valid, non-make-fun-able belief, and Scientology the silly-but-taken-seriously stuff? Judging from the discussion regarding Scientology, at least one of the mods is even more vocal and active than me about pushing that line (I don't remember what he said exactly, but it was something like "all religion seems equally silly to me", the context being why we couldn't single Scientology out for ridicule). Everyone has a different definition of what constitutes "I don't agree with this, but it makes enough sense that I respect the person who believes it" and what constitutes "this person is completely insane", and a different position on the spectrum between those two extreme points regarding each specific set of beliefs.

I have no idea where I'm going with this, but eh. Something about opinions being waay too different and better to avoid problems than to have those differring opinions of what makes sense and what doesn't clash.
Vidor
04:05:08 AM May 9th 2011
There's no rule that says belief can't be mocked.

As far as the page goes, I'd say that the only reason this page should be listed is if The Bible is treated, for the purpose of this page, as a fictional book. Otherwise it should be a Useful Notes page. And as far as "sarcasm and humor" go—this is TV Tropes. Sarcasm and humor is the point. This is not a reference work.
RaustBD
topic
05:30:57 AM Sep 29th 2010
edited by RaustBD
Can we remove the Hate Dumb trope from this page? The arguments that richard dawkins and other atheists put forth against certain parts of the bible are certainly not dumb. When Richard Dawkins talks about the bible in his book "the God Delusion", uses the bible to demonstrate that people don't actually get their morals from the bible by pointing to various atrocities committed in it that christians obviously ignore or interpret metaphorically, an action driven entirely by their own moral intuition.

Regardless of what you think of this argument, it hardly qualifies as dumb. Also, this is a locked page, so nothing bad should be said about people that aren't universally considered worthy of the said criticism. You can put it under hatedom, but hate dumb on a locked article is hardly good practice.
67.165.98.41
topic
05:41:51 PM Sep 28th 2010
im assuming that the rule of cautious editing judgement doesnt apply to reviews.
AnimeOtaku
topic
05:15:11 AM Sep 16th 2010
edited by AnimeOtaku
Can we add Expy or other appropriate trope if I got the wrong one please: The following attributes of Jesus - Born to a virgin mother on December 25th - Were the son of God - Were visited my wise men from the East upon their birth - Turned water into wine - Healed the sick - Had magical powers - Rode a donkey - Where betrayed for 30 pieces of silver - Were commemorated with offerings of bread and wine - Died by being nailed to a wooden structure - Were resurrected after three days are present in various earlier deities including Orisis, Horus, Mithras, Baal, Bacchus and Isis
SomeGuy
02:14:07 PM Sep 16th 2010
Add it to the character sheet. This page is locked, and I'd rather not challenge its current status at this time.
Unicorn
03:01:06 AM May 20th 2011
No, cuz they aren't Expy's of each other. Try Doing your research.
MikeRosoft
topic
02:14:19 AM Sep 2nd 2010
Also, one technicality: the page now has a character sheet.
MikeRosoft
11:55:31 PM Sep 8th 2010
Another technicality: The It Was His Sled entry has an unmatched parenthesis, should be fixed for consistency with the rest of the entries.
deuxhero
topic
05:05:07 AM Aug 27th 2010
The pot hole under "Yes, those Persians" in Downer Ending isn't that accurate. Cyrus the Great was actually a pretty nice guy.
70.119.12.223
topic
03:49:27 PM Aug 5th 2010
edited by 70.119.12.223
Add to Dub induced plot hole

  • The age of the earth is not in the original Hebrew.
  • Because the King James translation was translated by 2 teams (fair enough, the first half is in Hebrew and the 2nd one is in Greek), a few references to the Old Testament in the New Testament get lost.
MikeRosoft
12:00:30 AM Sep 9th 2010
The age of Earth is not a matter of translation; it's a matter of how literally you interpret the Bible.
70.119.12.223
topic
03:21:05 PM Aug 5th 2010
Arson Murder and Jaywalker: "The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[b]are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is preached to the poor"
KillerClowns
topic
05:11:45 PM Jul 31st 2010
edited by KillerClowns
I can understand why the page was locked, but if admins are making any changes, I think we can safely call the Bible the Ur Example for the Badass Israeli trope.

EDIT: Also, could we get a definitive answer on whether or not changes will ever be made at all? I get the impression the answer is "no," but I'd like something absolute.
ImpudentInfidel
topic
01:14:42 PM Jul 22nd 2010
It should have an entry for As the Good Book Says about when Jesus and the Devil tossed references to scripture back and forth in the desert.
205.206.106.189
topic
02:25:16 PM Jul 9th 2010
Just FYI, under Ascend to a Higher Plane of Existence, there is a reference to Mary's "ascension". This is technically incorrect, as "ascending" is something done under one's own power, like the Ascension of Christ. The correct term in this case is "assumption"; Mary is said to have been "assumed" into Heaven by the power of God (being merely human, she obviously couldn't do something like that on her own).

I realize the word is in the trope title, but it remains an inaccuracy in this context.
118.236.161.226
topic
10:45:26 PM Jun 23rd 2010
Why are there spoiler tags on so many references to Jesus dying? Is there really anyone who can read English that doesn't know about that plot point?
wackojacko1138
11:03:58 PM Jun 23rd 2010
It's mostly a joke. Even though It Was His Sled, such an event would be marked as a spoiler in any other work, so why not the Bible? After all, he gets better.
Kovensky
02:11:23 AM Feb 18th 2011
By the way, "Not to mention the fact that most victims of crucifixion are tied to the cross, Jesus was nailed." is not spoiler tagged. Can someone fix that? :)
60.240.145.232
topic
09:05:41 AM Jun 1st 2010
Is there a trope for the Serpent way back in Eden not being revealed as Satan until Revelation 20:2? It's not It Was His Sled because it's not exactly a twist, but I'm not sure that it's a Retcon either.

Also, the whole article needs to be funnier. The Bible is too important for TV Tropes to take seriously.

FastEddie
moderator
10:23:04 AM Jun 1st 2010
Take a try at it here. Fair warning, though. Bashing is a lot less funny than you might be thinking it is. On any topic.
Anaheyla
08:03:43 PM Jun 1st 2010
edited by Anaheyla
Maybe it's I Knew It?

Evil serpent in chapter 1. Come the last chapter and it was Satan all along. I knew it!

It might still count as It Was His Sled though. Just because it's not a twist now doesn't mean it wasn't a twist in 3 gajillion B.C.

You live in 1912. Hey they've got this new ship, it's called the Titanic! "Sounds awesome. I'm sure it will remain in service for many years."

You live in 2010. Hey they've got this new ship, it's called the Titanic! "It'll sink."
Kincyr
topic
08:48:52 PM May 27th 2010
edited by Kincyr
should it be mentioned under Everyone Calls Him Barkeep that in one passage only (Exodus 34:14) is god's real name ever explicitly stated?
Anaheyla
topic
01:10:19 PM May 21st 2010
There are several red links in the Character page, but the one that stands out would have to be Samson's "Testrogen Poisoning" which I assume is supposed to be Testosterone Poisoning.
Frank75
topic
05:23:02 AM May 19th 2010
Something for Heel-Face Turn:
  • In fact, in the German translation this became Vom Saulus Zum Paulus - "from Saul to Paul", a common German figure of speech.
BassballBatman
09:17:12 PM Feb 26th 2013
Kings Ahab and Manasseh underwent Heel-Face Turn, Manasseh more spectacularly of the two. Same is true of Paul, in a way. Not that a Jesus-rejecting persecutor is not a Heel, but bear in mind how much Saul of Tarsus truly believed that what he was doing was not evil. (Of course, I suppose some have made that same argument about Ahab and Manasseh. Who knows?) But, with his OT basis, the "Hebrew of Hebrews" actually believed it was a service to God — until he saw the light, that is. For comparison, the Peace Mediation (PMO) of Front Mission and the Four Guardians of Mega Man Zero are all that come to mind right now.
karstovich
topic
09:44:05 AM Apr 23rd 2010
edited by karstovich
Could someone add a link to "Talmud" in the Adaptation Expansion entry? We have an article, you know...
MikeRosoft
topic
10:46:34 AM Apr 11th 2010
Mike Rosoft: I suggest removing the following section from Did Not Do The Research. That Genesis 1-2 were originally two different acounts later combined into one is a legitimate hypothesis and, I dare say, a majority opinion among critical scholars (see Documentary hypothesis) - the page shouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
  • Another popular criticism used against the Bible is two apparently different creation stories. In reality, there's only one; it's just repeated twice, with differences between the two usually having simple explanations from apologists. There are four similar Gospels describing Jesus, yet no one claims he did all those things four times. It's a common literary device to go from describing an event from the general to the specific.
SchizoTechnician
10:59:23 AM Apr 11th 2010
edited by SchizoTechnician
I think we should basically ignore wikipedia, or at least, that's what we seem to be doing. The Unknown Troper who revised the article shortly before its locking deleted a lot of stuff wikipedia treated as "fact", calling it disrespectful. I admit my edits pushed it past wikipedia in terms of position, but the base level he reverted it to shortly before locking ignores most of wikipedia's definition of "neutral".
Yamikuronue
11:26:33 PM Apr 28th 2010
I remember learning about this theory in school - it's a valid theory, though of course difficult, if not impossible, to verify. Someone making reference to an actual theory being tossed around in academic circles probably did do their research, at least a little.
MikeRosoft
02:33:05 AM Sep 2nd 2010
My point is that just like we shouldn't state modern critical scholarship as a fact (that would have made the page a magnet for edit wars), we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand and uncritically accept conservative interpretations.
urutapu
topic
12:03:09 PM Apr 7th 2010
AAAGGGGH LOCKED

Can this get added?

  • Bookends: In the Gospel of Mark, when Jesus is baptized, the heavens split in half and God announces that Jesus is His son. At the crucifixion, a curtain depicting the heavens in the temple tears in half and exposes the Ark of the Covenant (figuratively God's presence).
ThinksTooMuch
04:34:29 PM Apr 7th 2010
And well we're add it, can somebody add that Mary Magdalene Glomps Jesus after the Resurrection? - Thinks Too Much
Anima
04:22:00 AM May 8th 2010
Can we add Jonah's Refusal of the Call? -Anima
Anaheyla
topic
03:22:04 PM Apr 6th 2010
Whenever someone gets around to editing, I've spotted a mistake.

(For the traditional Jewish.perspective, strike out the words "and Christ" and "like in Paul's lett

There's a period instead of a space between Jewish and perspective. A minor complaint, but I like to nitpick. :)
Inyarear
topic
08:44:40 PM Mar 30th 2010
Pity about the troll; I was hoping to throw in the Crapsack World trope. Not only is Hell portrayed as such, but *this* world as well: humanity is declared hopelessly depraved, and the Bible doesn't flinch from providing plenty of specific examples to underscore the point. Don't let the happy ending fool you: there's plenty of trouble in store for us in the meantime before we get to that part.
PasswordForgettingTroper
06:48:22 AM Jul 23rd 2010
edited by PasswordForgettingTroper
Dalek
topic
07:57:21 PM Mar 26th 2010
edited by Dalek
Aerith and Bob Think about it: David and Goliath. Judas and Peter. Michael and Lucifer. It goes on and on. This is either subverted or inverted as these names were common at the time and we have chosen those with the best connotations to give to our children.

We need to add this and I see no way anyone can view this as offensive.
SalFishFin
topic
06:29:54 AM Mar 12th 2010
Hey, can someone add to the Bond One-Liner example that the Hebrew word for "donkey" is similar to the word for "heap?"

Thank you.
asterselene
topic
10:45:18 PM Mar 10th 2010
Whoever is an admin who can edit, please add something about John for Now I Know What to Name Him - last time I checked they were specifically told to name him that? That shouldn't be controversial, either.
deuxhero
07:39:27 PM Mar 12th 2010
Can they also add
  • Starfish Aliens: Angels are described as such more often than they are humanoid.
Anaheyla
03:24:13 PM Apr 6th 2010
There's already a trope for that: Our Angels Are Different, which should be added instead. :P

corruptmalemenace
07:55:56 AM May 12th 2010
Can they also add the number three to the list of arc numbers? It's pretty-much God's second-favourite number after seven.
corruptmalemenace
08:06:33 AM May 12th 2010
And Badass Pacifist should be added for Jesus 'Turns The Other Cheek' Christ.
corruptmalemenace
08:23:33 AM May 12th 2010
Ooh! And you need to add Amos's "I'm not a prophet; I'm a shepherd!" under Deadpan Snarker.
martianunicorn
12:32:54 PM Aug 2nd 2010
edited by martianunicorn
would like to add this under TheDutifulSon:

  • Actually, considering the context of which Jesus told this parable, and his target audience, the pharisees, the older brother is more of a GoldDigger Hypocrite. He pretended to be by his father's side all along, only to show his true colours when the younger brother returns home, scolding his father and refusing to take part in his father's joy.
ginsengaddict
03:15:27 PM Mar 22nd 2011
Add Paul as another example of Celibate Hero.

1 Corinthians 7:8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do.
heyf00L
10:00:15 AM Apr 25th 2011
Title Drop trope is wrong. The very first word of the New Testament is "bible" (Greek for book: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=1&t=KJV&q=matthew#conc/1 ). Note that the second word is "genesis" which is likely a [[Continuity Nod]].
aranamor
11:25:21 AM Oct 3rd 2011
I'd like [1] added, if you please. I mean, one kills the world and burns down a city because he doesn't like them, the other corrupts humanity in the first place and tries to ruin Jesus himself, and they both ruin Job's life over a bet.
khalini
03:45:12 AM Oct 17th 2011
I'd like someone to add A God Am I to the list of tropes on this page that the Bible has named.
User/Weegee
topic
04:12:03 PM Mar 5th 2010
Why the Hell is this locked? And where the Hell does it say that David was fourteen?
SchizoTechnician
04:15:44 PM Mar 5th 2010
edited by SchizoTechnician
Why is it locked? Two words: edit war. Specifically, between one of the "treat it like a book" crowd [me] and an Unknown Troper of faith greatly offended by my additions, with matters exacerbated by fundamental disagreements over what the definitions of some tropes are making it impossible to come to agreement over whether they applied. In short, its a bit controversial.
kittenmommy
08:10:39 PM Mar 8th 2010
Darn it, I wanted to add a snarky comment about how I never noticed John's penis in the Da Vinci painting. But alas, the page is locked and I cannot. :(
66.138.203.101
07:34:04 AM Mar 19th 2010
edited by 66.138.203.101
Schizo Technician is wrong about that, and anyone who checks the discussion archives will see why; contrary to his claim, he didn't want to merely treat the Bible like "a book." He wanted to treat the book like Snark Bait, and rant for paragraphs on end about his beef with that book.

His real intentions are readily visible from several of the edits he made to the article; even Fast Eddie acknowledged Schizo Technician's attitude when he "de-vitrified" one of his references.

More importantly, though, he was using the wrong trope examples for some of his edits, and was insistent on continuing to use them regardless of real purpose of the tropes he tried to employ.

He's admitted that he's an atheist, that he thinks that the lack of snarking and heckling makes the article "religiously biased," and that he "can't leave his bias alone." He's insisted on using tropes incorrectly to toss in paragraphs of ranting about scientific inaccuracies that veered into "because science proves this interpretation wrong, the Bible is entirely bunk."

Quite frankly, it doesn't take a person of "great faith" (as he believes) to be irritated by that kind of behavior ... and we're not just dealing with any old piece of literature here—we're dealing with something that's Serious Business for a lot of people. You'd think that more people would be more mindful due to that. Apparently not.
SchizoTechnician
08:08:02 PM Mar 26th 2010
edited by SchizoTechnician
I said I admit that I was biased. I readily admit that some of what I put in- particularly the Science Moves On bit, as I realize now- was wrong. I am sorry for that. I am not sorry for the rest, though. I maintain that you were equally wrong, in the opposite direction, for two reasons. One, Fast Eddie did note that you were getting rid of perfectly valid trope examples, such as Broken Base- and I only got vitriolic when you kept removing a perfectly valid example that, as far as I could tell, was the best example of that trope around, rather than a marginal example. Two, the article had humor in it before. While I admit that it may have gone a bit too far at points, I personally think it went too far in the other direction now- it takes the bits important to people as important now, yes, but you also can't have any jokes in it; I wasn't trying to make fun, I was trying to get a laugh, since I'd seen this as one of the funnier pages before you made its position neutral. Serious Business I agree with totally- but to see Serious Business as a reason for removing any attempts at humor is unforgivable; I went to a hebrew day school in my youth and to say that they didn't joke around would be lying. I may have gone several miles too far in the not-serious direction (again, barring the science moves on thing, which I admit crossed the line), but only because nobody else was trying to go in the not-serious direction at all- I kept changing the babel entry becuase I wanted the phrasing and reference to be humorous, rather than explanatory. Not to mention, again, my attempts to add trope examples that I honestly didn't see as trying to be insulting or even joking at all, again I focus on Broken Base here.
Dentaku
08:27:53 AM Jul 14th 2010
edited by Dentaku
Within the context of this wiki, the Bible is a piece of literature, and deserves both serious and snarky entries just as much as any other. I, for one, would love to put up Satan as a Designated Villain, since he doesn't do much more than bitch around and hand apples to girls, whereas the Designated Hero God kills off the whole planet.
ginsengaddict
08:45:00 PM Mar 21st 2011
I think SchizoTechnician is rather representative of the Hate Dumb of this particular work. Indeed, looking back, I think it was his intention all along to get the page for this particular work locked, so fewer tropers would visit this page, knowing they cannot make edits.

I say this, because any of the complaints he were to make could have been discussed here on the discussion, or even on the Headscratchers page. Why continue to pour bile on the main page when there are far more appropriate places for it? To me at least, the answer seems obvious.

Thanks for ruining it for us, mate.
SchizoTechnician
09:01:48 PM Mar 21st 2011
edited by SchizoTechnician
Honestly, my main problem was that the humor was being taken out; and the snarkiness was what made it funny.

Unfortunately, I'm way too passionate about this stuff to put the humor back in without my vitriol slipping in. By the time I had noticed it, I was already in an edit-war, and you know how those things get.

The problem was only exacerbated by the fact that we had entirely different ideas about what construed neutrality- he thought snarkiness tipped it in the atheist direction, and I thought lack thereof made it biased in the judeo-christian direction. My own idiocy prevented discussion of that from becoming apparent until we were too emotionally invested to back down. I even waited a week for passions to cool, and tried my darndest to be more neutral about things- but failed miserably, because I'm an idiot who is too pasionate for his own good or others.

I'd be fine with it being reopened as long as I and the other IP address are personally locked from the page, it isn't treated like a bible seminar, and, ideally, that the fact that controvery exists can be mentioned, although the fact that I am preferential to that last one probably shows why I personally shouldn't be let on this page.

I had actually suggested that I be personally banned from the page instead of a general lock, I think, or at least meant to, but also was a mite concerned that I wasn't alone in being too passionate about it for safety- I only approached it in the first place, f'rinstance, because the other guy purged half the entries, and he didn't have a handle I could touch. For comparison, I also think its flamebait to have trope details and wild mass guessing on the pages for current politicians (there was discussion on the Obama and Bush pages a while back, and I was of the opinion that we should purge), so its not just the bible that I think we should as a whole drop when the inevitable conflict arises- I wasn't aiming for it, but when the problem manifested on its own, I at least partially supported lock as a solution to the problem  *, although I was never going for that in my additions to the page. I only thought it was a good idea after the week-long cooling off period failed critically, too.

As for the discussion page, check the archived discussion- we tried to discuss it there, but I was an utter asshole idiot about Science Marches On (I thought, wrongly, that it was being snarky to think of it as having tried to be scientifically accurate to its day- again, I was being fucking stupid, as that is being insulting, not snarky, there is a line and that one crosses it), and he was similar over Broken Base (there are multiple sects, ergo the base is broken), and we never got anywhere diplomatically.

As for It Just Bugs Me!, we might have, I'm pretty sure there was a purge of that one a while back.

Also, I suspect, as hinted above, that it would have ended up locked even if the Unknown Troper and I hadn't gone up in flames. The Bible is a hell of a lot more controversial even than the rest of the stuff on the Locked Pages list.

Also in summary because this post isn't long enough yet, the reason I pouring the bile on is becuase I didn't realize it was bile at the time, just like the Unknown Troper didn't realize that the piles he deleted were valid examples.

And since the page hasn't been broken yet, I also gotta mention that given that I only became an atheist after going to Hebrew Day School for 4 years and thinking hard about it, I'd be pushing my agenda by increasing discussion and analysis, not getting people to forget about it, like you suggest I was doing.
Smasher
06:37:02 PM Nov 30th 2011
Is this page ever going to be unlocked?
captainsandwich
12:41:11 AM May 4th 2012
I hope so, but i highly doubt it. I understand that pages rarely get unlocked and the bible is a religious work. It also has many variations (even within the same religion), and thus what can even be consisered part of THE bible is up to debate. I don't think i need to explain much more than that. Hopefully the troper community will be mature about how to handle the fate of the material on the page through civilized means like pms and talking about it on the discussion instead of just crudely changing it back to the way the want it till the admins feel they have no choice but to lock the page ruining the fun for everyone. Locking pages make the site stagnant as preventing both recording of tropes and making tropes known. I noticed some tropes are missing (like The Swarm) and it is disappointing that i can't edit them in like you can with My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic page (which is also locked). I'm not sure if you noticed, but from what i perceived some people in the troper community are not as easy going as others, and to them spoilering It Was His Sled material, like jesus dying is just a waste of time and not a good laugh for those bold enough to look at the spoiler. I admit that there is something on this site that i don't like, presumably in part because its trying to be comical and i don't find it as such. I am disappointed to the point of disgust that the even the YMMV bible page is locked. A YMMV page is by definition supposed to have the subjective content about the work that are to subjective for the main page, and thus members of the community should be expected to have a much higher tolerance for leaving up material you don't think belongs there. I have a feeling that if a YMMV page is locked, the prospects of its main page counterpart being unlocked are particularly grim. If you have the slightest suspicion that there is an edit war on a page, read the page's edit history. if it is really going on you can look at the percipients through the edit history and tell them to stop before the admins kill the fun for everyone. try to get them to talk things out if participants can't come to an agreement on the page's content directly hopefully you can have a vote in the discussion page. I hope that admins will talk to the people involved in the edit war before putting a long term lock on the page. I think admins should consider unlocking locked pages after a discussion with the community on the fate of the page in regards to what the war was about.
Telcontar
moderator
12:43:33 AM May 4th 2012
To request a page unlock, go to this thread. If you want an edit made to this page, go to this one.
back to Literature/TheBible

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