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May 31st 2014 at 1:04:45 PM •••

I've added a description of the three main characters to the box beneath the main picture. Problem is, it sort of looks stupid with the Friends, School and Demons thing, but since that's been here a while, I didn't want to delete it. Any suggestions to make it look a little better?

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May 31st 2014 at 3:19:45 PM •••

I don't... really think we need a description of the characters, honestly.

May 31st 2014 at 5:21:16 PM •••

I might just move it to the starred part of it and someone can delete it if it really isn't wanted.

May 12th 2014 at 4:35:32 PM •••

Should we get to creating a subpage for the Persona 3 film trilogy, considering how the first movie is now out online?

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May 12th 2014 at 5:48:00 PM •••

I honestly don't expect them to get enough separate edits to warrant their own page, but it should be considered. Does it deviate much from the original?

May 7th 2014 at 11:27:46 PM •••

Recent trailers of Persona Q and screenshots show that both Protagonists can be renamed. What should be done for the Persona 3 page? Recent changes I've seen, seem to try to cement "Minato Arisato" as the Canon Name.

Dec 20th 2013 at 7:07:22 AM •••

The main character's canon name seems to be Minato. Course of action?

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Dec 20th 2013 at 7:20:31 AM •••

It's mentioned on the page. That seems to be enough.

Technically, that's the canon name for the movie continuity; it's not necessarily canon to the games. As such, when referring to the games (which is... pretty much all of this page) then it's not really necessary to name them.

Dec 20th 2013 at 10:25:05 AM •••

Apparently in the new trailer for Persona Q his name appears as Minato Arisato (his movie name is Makoto, subverting our prediction of him being that).

Dec 20th 2013 at 10:53:31 AM •••

Ah. My bad, I didn't know and I apologize.

How... canon is Persona Q? Based on This page, it doesn't seem like it fits in with the games (what with SEES and the Investigation Team meeting way before P 4 A, which is canon). Even if it is, we'll still probably do the same thing we did with Yu; update the character sheet saying that's he's "Main Character/Minato" and allow use of either, since the namelessness is still in effect for the majority of media.

Dec 20th 2013 at 1:53:08 PM •••

Alright, seems cool. Just heard about it and was just wondering.

May 2nd 2013 at 3:41:53 AM •••

On the topic of Artemisia:

The Persona 3 Official Design Works was compiled from Shigenori Soejima's design notes. While the actual name of the Persona is indeed the same name as a historical figure, when the designer himself says that he drew inspiration from the Greek goddess that trumps any Wikipedia search.

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May 3rd 2013 at 5:58:16 AM •••

Does that say anything about the little dude in Caesar's chest? That's always made me wonder who that was.

Dec 24th 2011 at 9:36:09 AM •••

This was cut from the page:

While I don't think this is true, I'd rather give it the benefit of the doubt and ask if this is canon and where exactly this is stated (in-game or All in the Manual).

Edited by Icarael Hide/Show Replies
Jan 9th 2012 at 6:01:38 PM •••

That's not stated anywhere in the game or in supplementary materials. Just some fan theory meant for gushing. Keep it of the page.

Oct 8th 2011 at 7:22:05 PM •••

Hmm... The section on the Classical Mythology trope is really, really long. While I enjoy reading it, isn't that sort of analysis better suited for the Analysis page?

Apr 26th 2011 at 9:01:05 PM •••

I don't think that the Double Standard trope really applies.

"Subtle and fairly low-key one; how the romantic relationships get started. For the male protagonist, all his social links will default to a romantic relationship regardless. For the female protagonist, she needs to choose the correct responses at certain points"

While this is true, it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that the Fe MC is, well, female. I'm pretty sure it has more to do with P 3 P being made after Persona4, and includes all of its advances. One of which was the choice on whether or not a Social Link was romantic or not.

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May 4th 2011 at 10:58:25 PM •••

You're right, cut it.

Edited by Risetteer
Oct 10th 2010 at 3:44:16 PM •••

Quick question, does the No Fair Cheating voiced thing only apply for the Universe Arcana? Because I was hoping to use the infinite yen code for P3P (seriously, you can only get money through Card Chance now? What?), but I don't want my navigators lecturing me every five minutes.

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Oct 10th 2010 at 5:21:24 PM •••

No idea here. But as for getting money in P 3 P, there's more ways than the Card Chance. There's also working at places during night shift, and when you rescue people from Tartarus, you're usually rewarded with money. Just saying. Never heard of the Infinite Yen Code, personally.

ccoa MOD
Oct 10th 2010 at 5:46:18 PM •••

Chests still hold money in P3P, and golden enemies still drop high-selling coins. There are actually more ways to gain money in Portable than in the previous iterations of the game.

Oct 17th 2010 at 12:34:06 PM •••

Elizabeth/Theodore's missions also frequently net some fairly large yen rewards. When I played through P3P I quickly had more yen than I had any use for, even without doing part-time jobs or farming wealth hands.

Aug 4th 2010 at 1:33:04 PM •••

The reason I deleted the Official Couple entry is because it got a bunch of JustifyingEdits beneath it. That should be a huge clue that people disagree with the initial statement. "The hundreds of tropers" as you put it most likely tolerated the entry not because it was correct, but because they saw (or were the ones who added) those justifying edits.

You make a lot of arguments that Yukari is the "main" love interest and, to be fair, you have a point there. Your argument, however, is one-sided in that it doesn't take the feelings of the main character into account. This is important because, in this instance, the protagonist can choose who his love interest is. Because of that, we really need clarification from Word of God before we go about declaring who the Official Couple is. Again, "Canon has a crush on the hero so that's close enough" is not the same thing as Official Couple.

Now, if I am mistaken and Atlus has done so, then feel free to correct me and re-add the entry. But, until then, your description of Yukari falls under Implied Love Interest.

Edited by RedViking Hide/Show Replies
Aug 4th 2010 at 2:34:12 PM •••

To me, the main reason why Yukari (or any other girl, for that matter) isn't an Official Couple with the Main Character is summed up in one word: Aigis.

This is specially true in FES, where Aigis gets a LOT more focus than even Yukari, some of which is even romantic in nature. And then there's The Answer, where she's the one who carries on the MC's legacy while Yukari is reduced to near-hysteric obsession, and...

Aug 4th 2010 at 2:46:06 PM •••

Thank you. I completely forgot to mention the thing with Aigis.

Jul 10th 2010 at 9:56:13 PM •••

This page needs a massive cleanup. It's covered in natter, conversations, and unnecessary spoiler tags blanking out most of the text.

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Jul 11th 2010 at 7:38:19 AM •••

I noticed a big problem here is that people use trope entries as excuses to gush in detail about the plot, which is where the massive spoiler tags come from. In many cases, the spoilers weren't even necessary for explaining the trope: you could just delete the spoiled text and it reads just as well without it. At any rate, nuking...

  • Alternate Continuity / Continuity Snarl / Series Continuity Error - The game could be any of these and nobody is quite sure which - it's really not very clear just how P3 snaps together with the previous Persona games. There's quite a few subtle and not-so-subtle hints that it takes place in the same continuity, but then certain things just don't seem right at all (namely, "Shadows"? Where the heck did the demons go? And why the heck do the Shadows seem to behave like d - oh crap. But then they don't at the same time, and... it gets complicated.) A fair bit of MST3K Mantra applies, since the game stands well enough on its own, although a lot of fans still want a clear answer either way, since if all the games are contiguous then that colors some revelations in P3 and P4 (such as Erebus and Nyarlathotep as related beings in some fashion - which would actually explain a lot.) Naturally, Atlus has yet to say anything anything about this one way or the other, leaving fans guessing.
    • Connections to the older Persona games can be found, such as the television program "Who's Who," hosted by Trish, where she mentions characters from Persona and Persona 2, and what they're up to at the time. Persona 3 and 4 also have butterfly motifs, which also go back to the first games and Philemon.
      • In fact, Word of God has stated that the butterflies in The Answer and in P4 are Philemon, who is now taking more of an "observer" role. There's been no elaboration beyond the fact that he's around, however.

That is friggin' huge, it's already covered by Mythology Gag anyway and there's very little connection to the first two games apart from said Mythology Gags. The "snarl" only comes from how they're interpreted, and that's what the Just Bugs Me and Wild Mass Guessing pages are for.

  • Is it actually said to be horrific? I think I read in the Megami Tensei Wiki that the Great Seal is basically a golden gate and his soul guards it.
    • It wouldn't be horrific, except that he's a statue chained to the doors, holding them shut and is periodically assaulted by the local Eldritch Abomination that happens to exist because of humanity's collective will to die. This means that unless humanity as a whole changes so that said creature ceases to exist, he will be there for all eternity like that.
    • However the protagonist chooses to be in that state, referring to the whole "this is the path of my choosing" bit (even though it's really a But Thou Must!). He simply makes a supreme sacrifice to ensure the survival and happiness of others (esp. his friends). In this perspective, it sounds rather like something that a messiah would actually do.

Natter go squish.

  • Beat Them at Their Own Game - The Shadows' true nature is that they are the fragments of human emotions, both negative and positive, i.e. The Heartless. The reason why Shadows can be destroyed by Personas is—you guessed it—Personas are Shadows themselves, and the user has control over them.

That's like saying a wizard fighting another wizard is Beat Them at Their Own Game because they both use magic. Beat Them at Their Own Game is about the hero's deliberate strategy to, well, "beat them at their own game", not just the hero and villain both using a neutral power.

  • Broke Your Arm Punching Out Cthulhu - No. You do not get to kill Nyx. You might be able to seal her away, if you give your life to turn yourself into her seal.
    • Nor does you can kill Erebus for real. It will return as long as humanity call out for Nyx.

Broke Your Arm Punching Out Cthulhu is about making things worse by punching Cthulhu. Neither one of the above made things worse, they're just not full victories.

  • Captain Ersatz - When they created Aigis, the character designers appear to have been influenced by KOS-MOS.

It's debatable, since delicate-looking female combat androids are practically their own trope in anime, and Captain Ersatz is about very specific, unmistakable examples.

  • Crowning Moment Of Awesome - Aigis battle against Ryoji on the Moonlight Bridge. Although she loses quickly. Also the final battle against Death, and the first time the hero uses the evoker.
  • Crowning Moment Of Heartwarming - Various. Just one of them is when you take Shinjiro to the movie festival on the 23rd of September.
    • Don't you people dare to forget the "Junpei's Resolve" scene!
  • Crowning Moment Of Funny - Junpei, Akihiko and the male protagonist try picking up girls on the beach and hilarity freaking ensues. Gets better in Portable as this is where Kashiwagi from Persona 4 makes her cameo.
    • "Operation Babe Hunt" is even funnier when you realize the background music is the same as the first full moon boss music, because picking up chicks at the beach is Serious Business.
    • Also, "Execution." In Portable, the stealth mini-game is turned into choice-making. You can hide by faking a cat meow, Yukari will wonder if it's a fox, and you get the option to berate her by saying "It's a cat!" for some Epic Fail.
    • One of the epilogues to the social links the Hermit link, Toriumi's (the protagonist's teacher) spectacular Freak Out upon the realization that the protagonist and her net-game friend are the same person. You see, she'd revealed to her 'friend' during the link that she had a huge crush on a certain student, and... well, I think you can see where this is going.
  • Crowning Music Of Awesome - Poem/Aria/Song for Everyone's Soul (Velvet Room theme) and an awesome remix of it for the final battle, aptly named The Battle for Everyone's Soul.

The Crowning Moments should really be on their own page, since they're subjective tropes. I might move these over to their respective pages later, if they're not already there.

  • Cutting Off the Branches - For the heroine in P3P, you don't get the option to upgrade to a romantic relationship with Junpei (though given the circumstances that follow, it's understandable.)

Since the male MC couldn't date Junpei either, that's not cutting off the branches.

Way, way too vague.

  • Defeating the Undefeatable - Subverted. It turns out that everyone was right all along - Nyx is, in fact, undefeatable. Since there was never any way of "defeating" her, the Main Character instead used his soul as the Great Seal, a barrier between humanity and Nyx.

That's not really what that trope's about, and the entry goes on to subvert/avert/twist the trope sideways so much that it's easier to just say not an example and cut. Besides, Did You Just Punch Out Cthulhu? covers the same ground.

  • Demonic Spider - Any Shadow can become this if it exploits the Main Character's elemental weaknesses or consistently lands critical hits. Doubly so in Hard mode, where the damage from elemental spells is increased exponentially, meaning that getting knocked down to a critical hit is a death sentence. Triply so in The Answer, which is locked in Hard mode AND you cannot re-summon already created Personas at will, requiring you make do with what you find/recreate — and whatever resistances those Persona have.

Listing every monster doesn't fit the trope, and I can't think of any single monster that would be universally agreed upon as a Goddamn Bats or Demonic Spider.

  • Determinator - Akihiko Sanada is the most obvious example, however the entire team can become this if you choose to let Ryoji live.

Why Akihiko? Wouldn't Aigis versus Ryoji be the more obvious choice? Since I don't want to simply replace someone else's example with my own, and Determinator could be applied to so many circumstances and characters depending on each troper's favorite character and scene, I'm just removing.

  • Everyone Is Bi - okay, it may just be subtext, but...Yukari/Mitsuru. Fuuka/Natsuki. Akihiko/Shinjiro. Jin/Takaya. The MC and several male social links (Devil, Temperance and Sun, and that's just the most obvious ones).

That's just Alternate Character Interpretation with a preference towards slashing, which comes into play for just about any story with a sizable slash-fic fanbase.

  • Takaya is known as Revolver Jesus for reasons that should be obvious. Other nicknames include Cthulhu Jesus and Heroin Jesus.
    • Hippie Jesus
    • Junkie Jesus
    • Vampire Jesus
    • Psycho Jesus
    • Charles Manson
    • Jesus Antichrist Superstar
    • Albino Jesus

I'm skeptical of how many of those Fan Nicknames are genuine, and how many are just injokes for the individual troper who listed each one.

  • Functional Magic - Essentially, Persona summoning could be considered a form of Theurgy, with the Personae themselves capable of utilizing Elemental Powers. Fuuka and Mitsuru are apparently also capable of a limited form of Divination as well.

Please, people, theories like that are exactly what the WMG pages are for.

  • Gotta Kill Them All - Subverted, as the party thinks that destroying the twelve Full Moon Shadows will end the Dark Hour, but that turns out to be a very bad idea.

This trope is in the game, but I can't figure out how it can possibly be listed without spoiling things. Even saying "Subverted" gives the spoiler away, and having the whole thing in spoiler tags renders the entry useless.

My eyes! That's just a mess, and I don't see what it adds to this page other than a bunch of random trope/character mash-ups. Maybe it's best just to move the above list over the How To Become A Love Interest page, if it's not already there.

  • The Igor - Igor, natch, who serves as an aide to the main character.

This keeps getting deleted and added. Just because his name's Igor does not make him The Igor. <_<

Do these meme entries ever help any page? To anyone who's not in on the meme, it just looks like random shouting, and to anyone who's in on it, the net effect is just "heh, yeah, I rememeber that". Let's just keep them over on the Memetic Mutation page.

  • For the female protagonist, as not to mess with the storyline, she does not have romantic scenes outside her social links (aside from Aigis) and romance in them is optional for her. However, she does have some deep romantic hints with Shinjiro if she maxes out his social link, even if she doesn't have a romantic relationship with him. On the last day before graduation, one of your classmates will wonder why Shinjiro is so eager to get out of the hospital despite only recovering from a coma a few days before. While fairly obvious why if you are lovers with him, even if you aren't, it's likely he would want to see the heroine, as he did harbor feelings for her, and what he believed to be the only obstacle between them (Ken's revenge) is now gone. Surprisingly enough, the heroine's feelings for him if they are in a romantic relationship are not left as ambiguous as the male protagonist, despite never saying them directly. According to the New Game+ ending with Shinjiro, it's hinted she never gave up hope in that he would wake up for a coma, and one of her reasons to stop Nyx was so that there would be a world for him to recover to.
    • Some very Tear Jerker-y Fridge Brilliance kicks in when you remember that at that time nobody remembers what happened during the Dark Hour or any of the friendships that they had formed with each other. This is still in effect before Shinjiro gets out of the hospital, meaning, in theory, he doesn't remember WHY the female protagonist is so important to him (or maybe even at all) but only feels something compelling him to go. Maybe some very heartrending Wistful Amnesia?

Okay, after deleting the fifth Shinjiro-pimping entry so far, Shinji has officially crossed into my Hype Backlash hate list. The above is no more related to the Official Couple trope than any other romantic possibility, such as Ryoji or Akihiko. It's just two tropers gushing, at length, about a relationship they like.

  • And even if you become an immobile, impervious casket during the Dark Hour, you can still die by being involved in an accident or if anything happens to your surroundings. You could die in the blink of an eye at precisely midnight and you'd never know what hit you.

I'm not sure that's true. The only three people confirmed as dying in the Dark Hour during the backstory were Ken's mother and the MC's parents and, being the parents of persona users, it's possible they had the potential and remained human too.

  • Pair the Spares: A non-romantic case, but near the end of the game, after being warned about The Fall, six of the main characters have scenes for themselves about them deciding that they will fight Nyx. The first two, fairly logical, Mitsuru with Yukari and Akihiko with Ken, which is understandable since they have interaction and connections through the game, and the final pair is with... Junpei and Fuuka, who had barely talked to one another through the entire game. Not that the scene is bad, but it IS a clear Pair the Spares case.

Junpei had a crush on Fuuka for a long time before meeting Chidori, so it's not that out of left field. Also, way too long, rambling and feels like a Just Bugs Me entry on the main page.

  • Chidori's death is canon, as confirmed by Junpei referencing it in The Answer. The revival event was a non-canonical FES extra.

That she died is canon. Junpei only says that he wouldn't reverse her death if he could. That says nothing about whether she was revived with amnesia: either way, he still lost her. Also, it's exactly the sort of nitpicking, "aaaactually" natter that clutters up main pages and creates Wiki Schizophrenia.

Good lord! What is that huge list, and why is it all under The Power of Friendship? It's like two Persona 3 trope pages for the price of one! Removing, since I can only assume it was some crazy editing error.

  • When the characters first see the school transform into Tartarus, the way it changes is similar to the way the city changes in Dark City.
  • The portrait for the persona Lilith appears to be a shoutout to Gozer from Ghostbusters. The hairstyles are very similar, and the scale patterns covering Lilith bear a close resemblance to the skintight suit Gozer wore in her first appearance.
  • At the beginning of "Operation Babe Hunt", the Protagonist has the option to say "Let's begin the operation.". Sound familiar?
  • This even extends to other spinoffs of the Shin Megami Tensei series. Case in point - Cielo Mist
  • The Bauer Bar - gives you 24 hours of energy!
  • If Aigis is equipped with explosives, she'll occasionally say "Hasta la vista!" during a physical attack. Remind you of any other Ridiculously Human Robot?
  • Checking the "handheld game" key item gives it's description as "The "Odin Cube" disc is already in the tray."
  • A "game panic" can be found in the mall and inside of that "print club" both are owned by Atlus.
  • Mad Alchemist Mr.Edogawa uses a rat called Algernon as a test subject.
  • The entire concept of the Persona (plus the Tarot Motifs) is extremely similar to the Stands of Jojos Bizarre Adventure; a concept that was used in part 3 of the series.
  • The Hermit Social Link involves an MMORPG called "Innocent Sin", the person you make the link with uses the character name "Maya", and if you say you get the joke, she jokes she'll rely on you for protection from Jokers. Persona 2: now receiving the Digimon Tamers treatment!
    • The 'Jokers' comment is also a reference to the Persona 2 titles; the antagonist at the start of Innocent Sin and Eternal Punishment are named Joker-sama/Master Joker, and JOKER, respectively.
  • Aigis remarks that maid outfits are very comfortable, and easy to wear!
  • One of the female protagonist's weapons looks like a double laser naginata. It looks very similar to the weapon wielded by Chie's initial Persona, Tomoe
  • The elemental amp bracers share names with the avatars of the Embryon that have an affinity for the same element.
  • In P 3 P, one of the female protagonist's joke weapons is a Beam Naginata
  • If you watch the TV in the lounge, you'll hear an interview with a blonde haired girl who used to be a member of the Idol Singer group MUSES... now who could that be?

Some of those are valid, some are more iffy (I mean, "let's begin the operation" is a pretty standard phrase), but that's just way, way too much. Let's just say "such things as" the drinks, and leave it at that.

  • Useless Useful Spell - Looking at you, Hama and Mudo; all bosses and sub-bosses will null Light and Dark (and be generally highly resistant to most status effects, too), no exceptions. Handy for the occasional Demonic Spider, but useless in boss fights. This gave birth to the meme " MUDO NEVER HITS ".
    • If you have a persona specifically geared towards using them, including Mudo or Hama Boost, they're not that bad. Indeed, the Bonus Dungeon has level 85-99 monsters that are mostly WEAK to Mudo and Hama, making leveling up there extremely easy. The highest level Hama and Mudo skills also have an extremely high chance of insta-killing even monsters without weaknesses to them, which does speed along the usual grinding.
      • Least the status effect spells are alot more useful in this game then it is in the other Shin Megami Tensei Games (I'm looking at YOU Digital Devil Saga and Nocturne.)
      • This is actually subverted a bit in that each party member can only be hit with a single bad status effect at a time. If a character is poisoned, they cannot be charmed, and so on. Particularly useful against attacks like Night Queen and Marin Karin.
    • Dekaja and Dekunda. Normally, these debuff/de-debuff spells are useful for removing multiple buffs/debuffs at once. However, in this game, they only last 3 turns. Made even more useless because there are no multi buff/debuff spells (like the insanely powerful "Debilitate" in some of the other games). Additionally, bosses almost never use them. Your better of just keeping a few Dekaja and Dekunda Gems instead of having the actual skill.

Useless Useful Spells are unambiguously useless, and there's way too much debate here about exactly which spells are useful and useless to keep it as a trope.

  • Video Game Caring Potential - One of the aspects of the portable remake's heroine's route. She has S.Links with all of the members of SEES and Ryoji. Seeing them develop personally and becomes very close to her outside of the plot makes them even more endearing. Case in point: does anybody who has finished the original/FES have the heart to let Shinjiro die when you know you can save him?!?

Die, Shinji, you don't belong in this world. As for the trope itself, it may count for this game, but why single Shinjiro out? Helping Maiko with her parents' divorse seems like a more straightforward example. As it is, it reads like a Crowning Moment Of Heartwarming that's been shoehorned into another trope name.

(On second thought, I might rephrase and add this one back. The main issue now is that it makes it sound like the trope only applies to P3P, and especially to Shinjiro, when the original game was already filled with helping people out: Maiko, Akinari and the bookstore owners particularly come to mind.)

(Added and done.)

Why just P3P? There's the crucifixion poses, the original opening, the phrase "memento mori", the tarot cards, the evoker headshots, the Full Moon shadows ...but since listing anything has the potential to attract "no, it really is meaningful" natter, I'm just leaving it off. Might add back later, if I can think of a way to phrase it as comprehensively and neutrally as possible.

That's Not A Subversion, it's an aversion, which doesn't need to be listed.

  • The Woobie - EVERY player character, but mainly Aigis.
    • Aegis doesn't even begin to compare to Shinjiro. He seems like the last person who would fit this trope, however in the Female's Protagonist's route of Persona 3 Portable, Shinjiro gets probably the worst end out of every one of the main characters. The Female Protagonist, the girl that Shinjiro loves who had helped him to develop so much and was ultimately the reason he lived dies (made worse on a New Game+, where protagonist can choose to spend her last moments with him), so not only is Shinjiro denied a happy life with her after he gets out of the hospital but then we have to take into account the fact he will die pretty soon too due to the drugs he's been taking. So yeah, Shinjiro's life sucks.
    • Akihiko may also count. His parents are dead, you then find out his younger sister died in a fire and he never forgave himself for not being able to save her. He then tells himself he never wants to be powerless again, only to find his best friend is slowly killing himself through suppressant drugs and then finds himself powerless to save him from Taking the Bullet for Ken. Good god, that guy needs a hug.

Die, Shinjiro, die, die! Mwuahahaha! More Shinji gushing and natter in general, and since The Woobie is a subjective trope that can apply to any favorite character, I'm just leaving it off. The Woobie page itself already has several P3 characters.

  • Yank the Dog's Chain - Congratulations, you managed to survive a deadly bullet from a powerful magnum through the generosity of a girl who actually cares about you! Better yet, you don't need that loathsome Persona anymore, as the Dark Hour is gone thanks again to that lovely lady. Oh wait, when you finally get out of the hospital, she dies either moments before you get to her or in your arms. Also, you're not gonna live that much longer thanks to those suppressant drugs, and you won't even get to see her in the afterlife because she's now the Great Seal for Eternity. Sweet Nyx, Persona 3 Portable confirms that Atlus loves to screw over Shinjiro.

More Shinji gushing. If it's in the game at all, surely there's a more general, story-relevant example of the trope than one troper's speculation about how one supporting character might feel after the game ended?

(I did give Shinji a little bit of love, though - he's now included under Ensemble Dark Horse. I can't believe he wasn't there before, he's like this game's ED mascot. :))

  • Yet Another Stupid Death - After spending hours of grinding you will lose in a battle due to being ambush by the enemy, hits you with your weakness thats cause you to lose your turn, hit you again with another weakness and lose another turn as well. This goes on and on with your teammate not healing you, even with the AI set to Heal.

That's not really what that trope means.

  • You Killed My Father - Subverted - Ikutsuki and Shinjiro both get killed by people with no ties to them, even though Ken does attempt to kill Shinjiro in revenge for his mother's death.
    • Interesting enough, since the protagonist's parents were killed during the Dark Hour on Moonlight Bridge where Aigis pursued Death aka Ryoji, it's possible they were killed either by Ryoji's rampage or as collateral damage from the fight between him and Aigis. Thankfully the main character holds no grudges toward either of them as a Heroic Mime

Both of those points are Not A Subversion, they're just not this trope at all. Ironically, the one character who might qualify, Yukari (who enrolled at Gekkuokon and joined SEES to uncover the truth about what happened to her dad) isn't mentioned. Might add it back with her later.

(It's back now.)

I really don't like Ken either, but there's too much natter about who's The Scrappy for any one character to claim the mantle. Ken does have as many fans as haters, as do the other potential scrappies listed.

And done!

Edited by BritBllt
Jul 11th 2010 at 5:39:09 PM •••

On reviewing the page, this entry actually does have merit...

  • Functional Magic - Essentially, Persona summoning could be considered a form of Theurgy, with the Personae themselves capable of utilizing Elemental Powers. Fuuka and Mitsuru are apparently also capable of a limited form of Divination as well.

But I'm still not comfortable listing such specific terms when the game really doesn't go into that much detail, and alternate theories are possible. I'll move the entry over to Functional Magic instead.

Edited by BritBllt
ccoa MOD
Oct 10th 2010 at 5:58:58 PM •••

I think the Continuity Snarl, etc. stuff ought to go back on the page, at the very least in reduced form. Mythology Gag as it stands doesn't cover the connections to the previous and future installments. Which are, off the top of my head:

  • The Kirijo Group used to be part of the Nanjo Group from Persona 1 and 2.
  • Word of God states the butterflies are Philemon, who is still around in 3 (and 4), just taking more of an observer role.
  • Igor and the Velvet Room appear, Igor with an identical appearance to his other appearances and in the same role, and the Velvet Room is as always blue, although it's appearance changes from installment to installment.
  • Characters from Persona 1 and 2 are referred to on the television in the lounge.
  • Characters and locations from Persona 4 cameo in Persona 3 Portable.
    • The power outage which cancels Rise's appearance at Escapade is discussed during the Hermit full moon mission.
    • Yukiko, Inaba, and the Amagi Inn appear in the female protagonist's story.
    • Kashiwagi, a teacher in Persona 4, appears in the male protagonist's story.
  • Characters and locations from Persona 3 cameo in Persona 4. Events from Persona 3 are also alluded to.

It seems clear to me that the Persona series is supposed to be in the same continuity. Somehow.

Edited by ccoa
Oct 16th 2010 at 11:06:15 AM •••

Sounds like Continuity Nod, which is just the in-franchise equivalent of a Shout-Out (at the very least, listing it as such will help keep the continuity griping/theorizing natter down). I'll add it in.

ccoa MOD
Oct 16th 2010 at 11:26:04 AM •••

I strongly disagree, and the main reason I do is because of the Word of God about Philemon. If the same character exists in all of the games, then that is a very strong clue that the games exist in the same Universe.

At the very, very least, there can be absolutely no doubt that 1 & 2 and 3 & 4 exist in the same continuity, respectively, and there are some snarls even with that.

Edited by ccoa
Oct 16th 2010 at 12:12:23 PM •••

I didn't say they don't take place in the same continuity. I said I don't want natter about whether they do or not, and Continuity Nod is a vague enough term to encompass both possibilities without coming off as complaining. All this stuff about how the continuities do or don't fit together should be on the JBM/WMG pages, not here. It may strike you as obvious that they're in the same continuity, but it strikes some other fans as "obvious" that they're not: neither Continuity Snarl nor Canon Discontinuity nor Alternate Continuity should be on the page for that reason. Continuity Nod was my attempt to offer a non-controversial compromise between all those theories, but if all it's going to do is spark further bickering, then it should go too.

Edited by BritBllt
ccoa MOD
Oct 16th 2010 at 3:08:59 PM •••

What "further" bickering? While there was excessive detail on the example, there was no "bickering" at all. All that was needed was to cut it down, not chop it out. Just Bugs Me is for Fridge Logic, not Continuity Snarl or any of the other tropes you've listed. It's not speculation when the creators themselves have indicated that the games are in the same continuity.

Chopping it out was a gross overreaction and a disservice considering that the games do display that trope.

Oct 16th 2010 at 5:35:05 PM •••

Look, I have tried to be nice and offer a compromise to the blatant, rambling editorializing of the original entry, and instead of working with me on this, you're just griping because your pet theory isn't being pimped on the main page. This is not a page for fans of the game to discuss all its intricacies: there's an Analysis page for that, and an It Just Bugs Me page and a Wild Mass Guessing page. In fact, this very topic has been brought up on the latter two pages. This is a page for people who might not be familiar with the game to read up on the story and its tropes, and bogging it down with an "example" that's three rambling paragraphs long and constantly waffles back and forth on whether it even really counts as an example doesn't help anything.

The game does not have an explicit connection to the earlier Persona games. People who have only played Persona 3 don't need to know anything about the first two games. They're not referenced apart from an irrelevant namedrop or cameo here and there. That's exactly what Continuity Nod means. That's why I picked it.

Continuity Snarl, on the other hand, makes some very broad assumptions that playing the game does not support. For all we know, P1 and P2 apply only in Broad Strokes, or this is an Alternate Continuity, or it's a franchise Continuity Reboot, or maybe even a Cosmic Retcon (the series has already had at least one of those via Eternal Punishment). The creators saying Philemon is the butterfly tells us nothing that Igor and the Velvet Room's presence in the latter series didn't already tell us anyway (and that's not even getting into Death of the Author). Calling the lack of a deeper, more straightforward connection a Continuity Snarl makes too many assumptions about what the story's trying to be and comes off as a disguised They Changed It, Now It Sucks!.

By the way, I really don't appreciate how personally you're making this. I spent several hours cleaning up this page, and I didn't see you or anyone else stepping up to help or offering any thanks afterward. When you raised a complaint, I tried to fix the page to include your contribution - and you responded by continuing to complain and criticizing my work on the page because you didn't get exactly the trope name you're looking for!

The page was a mess, and since nobody else was cleaning it, I had to make judgment calls on what needed to go. I made them (and I saved all the deleted material here - if I hadn't done that, we wouldn't even be having this conversation now), and I don't appreciate you jumping in long after the fact with that "chopping it out was a gross overreaction and a disservice" remark. I've been working hard on these pages. If you want to help, then help, or at least show some willingness to work together (as I did by adding them as Continuity Nod instead of ignoring your message) rather than just complaining that I'm not doing it exactly to your liking.

Edited by BritBllt
ccoa MOD
Oct 17th 2010 at 11:23:08 AM •••

You know what they say about assumptions, right? This is not my "pet" theory. It's not a theory at all. And not a single person was debating it on the main page. You're using hyperbole to make the position look ridiculous, but no one was discussing "all the intricacies" of the games, it's a single trope that could take a single line. Or less, it could just as easily be mentioned in Mythology Gag or Continuity Nod.

It fits the trope definition to a T - the universe is a shared one in that multiple development teams have played in it. However, despite being set in the same continuity, there are things that make it difficult to fit the games together. On the other hand, there are things that make the games explicitly (yes, explicitly, and they've already been mentioned, so I don't know why you are ignoring them) fit together as well. Nowhere in the trope does it say they must be direct sequels or that you must be familiar with one to know another.

I'm sorry you're seeing it as They Changed It, Now It Sucks!, but that is implied nowhere in my posts nor in the deleted content. The creators telling us that the same character is around (and a diety, at that) is an indication that the universe is the same. As the creators said, the butterflies are Philemon and he is "still watching over the player" (emphasis mine). The only way he can "still" be watching anyone is if he has done so before, and thus is the same character as was present in previous games. The only way to ignore that is indeed Death of the Author, but Death of the Author is not even close to universally accepted as a way of viewing media. Might I remind you that Tropes Are Tools, and Continuity Snarl is not a "negative" trope? Its presence on the page is noting its presence in the games, nothing more.

Frankly, your offense means very little to me. No one has ever thanked me for the 350+ pages I watch and keep clean. No one has ever thanked me for the thousands of pages I've folderized, organized, cleaned of natter, and removed bad examples from. If you can't handle doing the work without thanks, perhaps editing a wiki is not the hobby for you. You made a change I think was wrong. You posted it here for feedback. If you can't handle the feedback, then perhaps you should have left the job to someone else.

As to not working with you - I am trying to, by posting here, instead of simply editing the page. Unlike you, I was attempting to come to a consensus (with preferable more input that just you and I) before starting a potential edit war. I could have just trimmed down the entry and returned it to the page (and I'm starting to think I should have), but instead I challenged it here. I could have simply removed your additions to the page, but I have not. It's not a compromise if you don't allow anyone a chance to agree to it, first.

Edited by ccoa
Oct 17th 2010 at 11:46:08 AM •••

You don't get how to talk to people like equals or handle conflict, do you? See, there are these things called politeness, mutual respect and courtesy. That begins with acknowledging the validity of other people's perspectives. I did that by trying to work with you on a compromise, but I see now that offering a compromise is simply a sign of weakness in your eyes. I would have been better off sitting back and letting your message drift away - which, after nearly a week with no feedback, was exactly where it was heading. Nobody cared, and you got no replies. I was the only person who saw fit to respond and try to work your points back into the article, but despite that, you're determined to treat me like the enemy. I would address your points and discuss the issue further but frankly, I don't feel like wading through the sarcasm and vitriol to get to them. I have enough stress in my life, I don't come here because I need more of it. I tried to be nice and helpful, you've only been antagonistic and hostile. So okay, your wish is my command. This topic can sink right back into obscurity.

On an aside: does anybody remember a time when fans used to like each other for being in the same fandom, and start off with some measure of comradery over that shared interest? <_<

Edited by BritBllt
ccoa MOD
Oct 17th 2010 at 12:07:51 PM •••

You haven't worked with me, you've unilaterally decided what to do without consulting me. If that's your idea of working with a person, it's no wonder that you meet with conflict.

Since simply making changes and calling them a compromise and working together seems to be the order of the day, I went ahead and put in a neutral statement that is, as I said, a single line that is worded in such a way that it will hopefully not attract natter.

Oct 17th 2010 at 12:26:12 PM •••

you've unilaterally decided what to do without consulting me

But that's how a wiki works! People edit to improve the articles as they think best, and then other people further edit to refine them, fix them or remove them as needed. Of course I edited the article immediately; I did so with the understanding that you can go in after me and rework it if needed. This isn't a TRS topic or a crowner; the only "consensus" to be achieved is to just jump in, make the edit and see how it holds up.

BTW, for what it's worth, I think your entry looks good and covers all the bases.

Edited by BritBllt
ccoa MOD
Oct 17th 2010 at 2:06:32 PM •••

If you know someone has an active interest in an article, then it's polite to gain their consent before editing. That's precisely why I posted here and waited before making the change. If no one had responded, then I would have assumed that no one would revert the edit and made the changes I thought appropriate. By the same token, after someone responded I would have discussed a compromise here before making the changes because I already knew at least one person cared about the change and there was potential for an edit war.

In other words, deliberately making changes you know can lead to an edit war when you haven't yet exhausted diplomacy is bad wiki etiquette.

There is a world of difference between an edit you know is potentially controversial and there is already discussion about and a drive-by edit to casually improve an article.

Honestly, you've been combative from very early - you made the changes without running them by here, you accused me of "bickering" with you when I'd done nothing argumentative at all at that point, and then you threatened to take your toys and go home, so to speak, because I was "bickering" with you. I apologize if my wording after that seemed harsh. I probably could have handled it better, I know. But it's frankly very difficult to be perfectly civil to someone who is not being very civil in return.

Edited by ccoa
Oct 17th 2010 at 2:31:54 PM •••

You wanted your points made in the article. I agreed and went ahead and added your points to the article. Instead of collaborating by editing in the changes you wanted made or, if you're really determined to edit by consensus, saying something polite and constructive like "that's a good start, but can we add something about the continuity," you assigned a POV to me that I never expressed just so you could argue about it, all because the edit I made on your behalf wasn't exactly the way you wanted it. That sequence of events says it all.

Edited by BritBllt
ccoa MOD
Oct 17th 2010 at 3:39:35 PM •••

And again you're assigning motives and actions to me which I have not had or done. I'm done playing this game with you.

As to the final "solution", I really don't care for it at all (after all, at least one of the tropes listed must apply, by definition), but I'm really done with this whole discussion. It's better than nothing.

Edited by ccoa
Oct 17th 2010 at 3:50:11 PM •••

If you don't like how that summary makes you look, maybe the problem isn't the summary.

Edited by BritBllt
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